This discussion was so healing for me. I had a mother who was just like these sspx parents. In fact she was more strict than even these sspx parents. The older we got,the more extreme the abuse. She would tell all her friends that all her girls were going to be nuns. She would belt us if we said we didn’t want to be nuns. My eldest sister did become a Carmelite nun. As soon as my sister and I turned 16,she took us to visit my sister and she let us know in no uncertain terms that we were not coming home with her. She also told the mother superior that we were ready to enter the monastary immeadiately. The mother superior told my mom that she had to interview each of us privately to make sure this was of our own free will and she refused. She was outraged when the mother superior would not accept her terms. It was shortly after that experience that I finally found the courage to run away. Everyone who knew my mom refused to accept that she was abusive because she went to mass 2-3 times a day. They regarded her as a living saint for that alone. She was very good at crafting the saintly persona but behind doors it was completely the opposite. I left the church for many years and all but one of my siblings also left the church because this is what it represented to us. Extreme Catholicism is so fatal to so many. I am still healing and trying to sort out the truth from the lies. It’s so nice to know that there are others who shares these experiences.
I know other people who didn’t grow up SSPX, but has similar experiences that you did regarding extreme mothers. I’m glad this conversation helped you ! I hope Laura does more delving into all the dangers of extreme Catholicism, esp for women. I think a lot of people who go extreme forget that virtue and goodness is in the balance, in the middle (just God is at the center).
Wow I am so sorry for what you went through. The tradsphere seems to appeal to so many extremist personality types and then feeds that extremism because the trad stance is itself unbalanced. I am glad you found this conversation to be helpful and may God bless you on your healing journey.
From an Australian Coptic Orthodox who lived in Africa for a time: in a healthy, patriarchal society, women end up elevated. There are even tribes where the men look down on another tribe because of the poor treatment of the women. The women in these tribes are cared for, treasured, protected, and because they are protected by the men and given structure, those women flourish. This woman visiting felt much safer walking those streets than those of Australia. I've heard a similar account from a woman I believe in polish. Her husband will not let his wife be driven around in a rickety vehicle. He sees it as below her dignity. That's a funny example, but it's telling that madculine men in a healthy society don't treat their wives like pleasure or baby machines and don't use them as a footrest. They treat their wives like a crown jewel and will NOT let someone mistreat or belittle them. Daughters, sisters, nieces, and female cousins are likewise protected. The "trads" don't understand or embody traditional gender roles and relations at all. Instead, they embody the curse.
Wow, that’s beautiful, thank you for sharing that! And yes I do agree with your last 2 sentences. “Trads” don’t understand most traditional values. They have stolen that word, and like the liberals created their own definition.
10:27 This is so true. So many married couples after this “puritanical” upbringing end up suffering so much in the marriage bedroom. Pain, difficulty, fear. And they don’t feel they can seek help for it either because who are they going to talk to? It’s so sad because married couples should be able to enjoy their time together expressing their love to each other in this way
I was never in any of these extreme traditionalist communities, but threads of these mindsets mentioned were definitely present in the Catholic university I attended and the specific student body I was a part of. Especially the obsession of marriage, getting married young, and having babies, and "figuring out" one's vocation. Because I didn't have success in this area (and in fact experienced a crisis that shattered my trust in even devout Catholic men), I felt like I was a failure as a Christian and as a woman. Long story short, God redeemed that situation over a hundredfold and I was convicted of the fact that marriage and children are not the height of the Christian life. And He has shown me the beauty of a life lived without a spouse and children, as a celibate. Praise God, He has taken me a long road of healing, and I do believe that marriage and family are indeed beautiful and so necessary. But the Church I think, needs to stop with this idolatry of marriage, which I didn't realize I'd bought into until after I experienced this crisis of faith. I don't think feminism is completely bad anymore (radical feminism is), and I think there needs to be more of the mindset that women are not solely defined by their marital or parental status.
That was quite a gut punch to hear all of this. 😢 I’m very much saddened by all the abuse that has been occurring in the Trad movement (that I’m loosely a part). I was frankly only in this for the mass that my family and I love. I’ve had to come full circle to see all the…stuff…that comes with it due to horrendous catechesis among the laity. This is why I have been unable to just jump all the way in the “Trad” movement. Something wasn’t jibing right and everything y’all said certainly confirms large chunks of my suspicions. If the Traditionalist movement (at its best and intended) is to continue forward, there must be revival among us the laity. Otherwise it is GOING to fail.
I taught NFP for 30 years and some of my first clients were dyed in the wool SSPX folks! They still went on to have 11 and 7. Anastasia and Veronica, you probably know exactly who I am talking about! So they were not doing the "birth control" thing. But I actually had to get deprogrammed from public school and nominal Catholic upbringing. I ended up with 7 over a 19 year span because nursing spaced beyond the bell curve for me! It was all very manageable but I needed NFP to learn not to fear and to value the babies! We even abstained for 6 months after baby number 2 because we were so afraid and later I realized I was not even fertile! After #4 we let the NFP go, realizing that I would only end up with about 7, the last one coming when I was 42. My youngest have been such a joy as well as the older ones! I am so glad I had them! I did have the local Ukrainian priest get me together with a couple in his parish that were having a baby every year and she was getting beyond wiped out!
Love that you taught NFP! You’re also very lucky that breastfeeding helped you out ! I know so many young girls who want to use NFP bc just nursing for a year didn’t work for them and there is a lot of pressure from their parents to “just nurse bc NFP bad”
That also happened in Institute of Basic Life Principles. The women, wives and the ultra modesty and abuse. (Duggers are an example) Bill Gothard, the founder and their "pope" (my opinion) was accused by over 30 for inappropriate behavior and molestation but was never charged. He had to step down from leading the organization. Same thing as you said, with the boys and girls even interacting with each other.
Older women at my NO parish were shaming one mother but when the Archbishop came and was in the parish center. He saw her and came right over to commend her for nursing her baby. He was so happy to see that! She did expose herself more than necessary and did have a rebellious attitude but hey, the Archbishop was so proud of her!
oh gosh, that book "Listen, Son," is the one my dad is currently reading to my little brother. from what little i flipped through, it has arbitrary rules about how often a boy should spend time in public, mixed-gendered company in comparison to with only other boys. like how many times per week 😂 i get the idea of not giving kids the idea that there's no difference between boys and girls and they can pal around in all the same ways. but an actual set number of times per week seems silly. better than what i got which was absolutely nothing. my older sister got the talk, but i was just missed completely. found out online in the worst ways possible.
14:09 too true!! I sent my kids out completely unprepared for those reasons, and Theology of the Body was mind blowing…absolutely beautiful, so necessary, and condemned in trad circles. What a shame.
1:13:14 NFP is still a struggle for me to understand. I grew up and learnt about it as just assumed for marriage and for the whole marriage.I know catholic couples who just used NFP for either their whole marriage or after two kids just because. And they were open about it too. I’m totally on board with spacing babies even for a long time especially in a serious situation with mental or physical health but there’s this culture around me of using NFP as birth control almost. What I struggle with is talking to couples who get married in the church and then just say “we want to experience marriage by ourselves for a couple years” and don’t even talk about kids with each other. It’s just assumed because that’s what is normal in the culture at large. Anyway, this is usually normal Catholics, not trads and it’s hard for me to understand because I just want to be open to Gods providence and babies but there’s family pressure to limit family size out of a sense of “responsibility.” But then where is the space for trust?
I have found that the space for trust is still there, in the being open to life. Can NFP be used selfishly (with a contraceptive mindset)? Yes, and I do think that too many people fall into the habit of practicing NFP and forget to discern future children. I do think to that some people out of selfishness tend to not want to use it, because it requires self control. At the end of the day it’s between the couple and God, and that is something I constantly have to remind myself. Because you are open to life, there is still always a small chance, and sometimes God takes advantage of that (currently 6 months pregnant with my third and my baby will be one in January 😅). I think responsibility comes into play when we remember we have to be able to give our kids proper emotional attention and formation, as well as be able to afford them in their teenage years. I have found too that NFP brings a couple closer together as well.
I really wondered what to do when I had my babies and my mother-in-law who was born in 1910 said they always just nursed in church. There were no cry rooms back then!
The first time I attended Mass in a very old church and panicked for a moment when I realized there was no cry room 😅 I think I ended up sitting in the back but it is interesting that old churches didn’t have them.
1:06:10 I guess there is a difference between US and Europe because when we had an SSPX priest from US (graduated Winona) he told that we MUST get dispensation to use NFP. We didn't believe it, read all of the related documents (and funny was that these were all printed by SSPX) which ALL TO ONE contradicted that we need any permission from anyone. Then we asked a freshly graduated SSPX priest from seminary in Germany and he told that not only NFP doesn't require permission, but if family has 5-6 children, they are considered to have fulfilled obligation to Church and society so they can use NFP without any reason at all.
37:34 I love this! I nurse my babies anywhere! I’ve even nursed in the communion line and received while nursing. I did have a cover but it was more for Fathers sake so he was shocked lol
39:46 the rest of the world really does view nudity differently. We have a kids book from Finland and the whole family just casually goes into the sauna often in the buff and it’s just whatever. The picture didn’t show genitals or breasts but it was also just normal. Like nudity doesn’t have to be sexual. That’s what we are trying to teach our kids. Yes modesty, but also your body is good and doesn’t have to be sexual
Vanderputten used the sspx purity culture to abuse me...He would say that the sspx was puritanical...that only he had a pure mind...he could look at the human body and not think impurity. He was able to twist the sspx narrative to his own pleasure. It is interesting thr reactions you have gotten in the parishes and it all makes sense...there is no balance to that thinking...it is crazy how much you have to rethink things...
I am truly sorry you experienced so much horror at the hands of that priest. I am glad you are able to talk about it. People need to know and understand how this abuse happens.
I am so sorry for your loss Anastasia! I wonder if that was the same midwife another friend had. Same story except that she labored for 13 hours all while the midwife was shaming her about going to the hospital! Then she almost died and the baby did die!😭. My midwife warned me about her and told me that story. Then later I met that poor couple. They did go on to have 4 more thankfully. One of my daughters was so bummed out to not be able to have a home birth or Vback and I reassured her that these are the situations when C sections are such a blessing. She also hates having to space children so far apart. Another daughter needed a C Section for her 8th and 9th after home births for all the others. She is grateful for the babies being rescued.💕
This discussion was so healing for me. I had a mother who was just like these sspx parents. In fact she was more strict than even these sspx parents. The older we got,the more extreme the abuse. She would tell all her friends that all her girls were going to be nuns. She would belt us if we said we didn’t want to be nuns. My eldest sister did become a Carmelite nun. As soon as my sister and I turned 16,she took us to visit my sister and she let us know in no uncertain terms that we were not coming home with her. She also told the mother superior that we were ready to enter the monastary immeadiately. The mother superior told my mom that she had to interview each of us privately to make sure this was of our own free will and she refused. She was outraged when the mother superior would not accept her terms.
It was shortly after that experience that I finally found the courage to run away. Everyone who knew my mom refused to accept that she was abusive because she went to mass 2-3 times a day. They regarded her as a living saint for that alone. She was very good at crafting the saintly persona but behind doors it was completely the opposite. I left the church for many years and all but one of my siblings also left the church because this is what it represented to us. Extreme Catholicism is so fatal to so many. I am still healing and trying to sort out the truth from the lies. It’s so nice to know that there are others who shares these experiences.
I know other people who didn’t grow up SSPX, but has similar experiences that you did regarding extreme mothers. I’m glad this conversation helped you !
I hope Laura does more delving into all the dangers of extreme Catholicism, esp for women. I think a lot of people who go extreme forget that virtue and goodness is in the balance, in the middle (just God is at the center).
Wow I am so sorry for what you went through. The tradsphere seems to appeal to so many extremist personality types and then feeds that extremism because the trad stance is itself unbalanced. I am glad you found this conversation to be helpful and may God bless you on your healing journey.
Is your sister still a Carmelite nun? Was it one of SSPX associate convents or normal?
From an Australian Coptic Orthodox who lived in Africa for a time: in a healthy, patriarchal society, women end up elevated. There are even tribes where the men look down on another tribe because of the poor treatment of the women. The women in these tribes are cared for, treasured, protected, and because they are protected by the men and given structure, those women flourish. This woman visiting felt much safer walking those streets than those of Australia. I've heard a similar account from a woman I believe in polish. Her husband will not let his wife be driven around in a rickety vehicle. He sees it as below her dignity. That's a funny example, but it's telling that madculine men in a healthy society don't treat their wives like pleasure or baby machines and don't use them as a footrest. They treat their wives like a crown jewel and will NOT let someone mistreat or belittle them. Daughters, sisters, nieces, and female cousins are likewise protected. The "trads" don't understand or embody traditional gender roles and relations at all. Instead, they embody the curse.
Wow, that’s beautiful, thank you for sharing that! And yes I do agree with your last 2 sentences. “Trads” don’t understand most traditional values. They have stolen that word, and like the liberals created their own definition.
10:27 This is so true. So many married couples after this “puritanical” upbringing end up suffering so much in the marriage bedroom. Pain, difficulty, fear. And they don’t feel they can seek help for it either because who are they going to talk to? It’s so sad because married couples should be able to enjoy their time together expressing their love to each other in this way
Great conversation and sooo relatable. Thank you Laura for organizing this and thank you ladies for contributing to the discussion.
I was never in any of these extreme traditionalist communities, but threads of these mindsets mentioned were definitely present in the Catholic university I attended and the specific student body I was a part of. Especially the obsession of marriage, getting married young, and having babies, and "figuring out" one's vocation. Because I didn't have success in this area (and in fact experienced a crisis that shattered my trust in even devout Catholic men), I felt like I was a failure as a Christian and as a woman. Long story short, God redeemed that situation over a hundredfold and I was convicted of the fact that marriage and children are not the height of the Christian life. And He has shown me the beauty of a life lived without a spouse and children, as a celibate.
Praise God, He has taken me a long road of healing, and I do believe that marriage and family are indeed beautiful and so necessary. But the Church I think, needs to stop with this idolatry of marriage, which I didn't realize I'd bought into until after I experienced this crisis of faith. I don't think feminism is completely bad anymore (radical feminism is), and I think there needs to be more of the mindset that women are not solely defined by their marital or parental status.
I’m going thru this right now..😞
That was quite a gut punch to hear all of this. 😢
I’m very much saddened by all the abuse that has been occurring in the Trad movement (that I’m loosely a part). I was frankly only in this for the mass that my family and I love. I’ve had to come full circle to see all the…stuff…that comes with it due to horrendous catechesis among the laity.
This is why I have been unable to just jump all the way in the “Trad” movement. Something wasn’t jibing right and everything y’all said certainly confirms large chunks of my suspicions.
If the Traditionalist movement (at its best and intended) is to continue forward, there must be revival among us the laity. Otherwise it is GOING to fail.
I taught NFP for 30 years and some of my first clients were dyed in the wool SSPX folks! They still went on to have 11 and 7. Anastasia and Veronica, you probably know exactly who I am talking about! So they were not doing the "birth control" thing.
But I actually had to get deprogrammed from public school and nominal Catholic upbringing. I ended up with 7 over a 19 year span because nursing spaced beyond the bell curve for me! It was all very manageable but I needed NFP to learn not to fear and to value the babies! We even abstained for 6 months after baby number 2 because we were so afraid and later I realized I was not even fertile! After #4 we let the NFP go, realizing that I would only end up with about 7, the last one coming when I was 42. My youngest have been such a joy as well as the older ones! I am so glad I had them!
I did have the local Ukrainian priest get me together with a couple in his parish that were having a baby every year and she was getting beyond wiped out!
Love that you taught NFP! You’re also very lucky that breastfeeding helped you out ! I know so many young girls who want to use NFP bc just nursing for a year didn’t work for them and there is a lot of pressure from their parents to “just nurse bc NFP bad”
Wow. Clearly you haven't read Pius XI or Pius XII.
That also happened in Institute of Basic Life Principles. The women, wives and the ultra modesty and abuse. (Duggers are an example) Bill Gothard, the founder and their "pope" (my opinion) was accused by over 30 for inappropriate behavior and molestation but was never charged. He had to step down from leading the organization.
Same thing as you said, with the boys and girls even interacting with each other.
God bless you all! Thank you for your courage, this is so needed! 🥰
Older women at my NO parish were shaming one mother but when the Archbishop came and was in the parish center. He saw her and came right over to commend her for nursing her baby. He was so happy to see that! She did expose herself more than necessary and did have a rebellious attitude but hey, the Archbishop was so proud of her!
oh gosh, that book "Listen, Son," is the one my dad is currently reading to my little brother. from what little i flipped through, it has arbitrary rules about how often a boy should spend time in public, mixed-gendered company in comparison to with only other boys. like how many times per week 😂 i get the idea of not giving kids the idea that there's no difference between boys and girls and they can pal around in all the same ways. but an actual set number of times per week seems silly.
better than what i got which was absolutely nothing. my older sister got the talk, but i was just missed completely. found out online in the worst ways possible.
The people attacked the most are in track with God. You confirm this. They hated me they will hate you too. 🛐
14:09 too true!! I sent my kids out completely unprepared for those reasons, and Theology of the Body was mind blowing…absolutely beautiful, so necessary, and condemned in trad circles. What a shame.
1:13:14 NFP is still a struggle for me to understand. I grew up and learnt about it as just assumed for marriage and for the whole marriage.I know catholic couples who just used NFP for either their whole marriage or after two kids just because. And they were open about it too. I’m totally on board with spacing babies even for a long time especially in a serious situation with mental or physical health but there’s this culture around me of using NFP as birth control almost. What I struggle with is talking to couples who get married in the church and then just say “we want to experience marriage by ourselves for a couple years” and don’t even talk about kids with each other. It’s just assumed because that’s what is normal in the culture at large. Anyway, this is usually normal Catholics, not trads and it’s hard for me to understand because I just want to be open to Gods providence and babies but there’s family pressure to limit family size out of a sense of “responsibility.” But then where is the space for trust?
I have found that the space for trust is still there, in the being open to life.
Can NFP be used selfishly (with a contraceptive mindset)? Yes, and I do think that too many people fall into the habit of practicing NFP and forget to discern future children. I do think to that some people out of selfishness tend to not want to use it, because it requires self control. At the end of the day it’s between the couple and God, and that is something I constantly have to remind myself.
Because you are open to life, there is still always a small chance, and sometimes God takes advantage of that (currently 6 months pregnant with my third and my baby will be one in January 😅).
I think responsibility comes into play when we remember we have to be able to give our kids proper emotional attention and formation, as well as be able to afford them in their teenage years.
I have found too that NFP brings a couple closer together as well.
I really wondered what to do when I had my babies and my mother-in-law who was born in 1910 said they always just nursed in church. There were no cry rooms back then!
The first time I attended Mass in a very old church and panicked for a moment when I realized there was no cry room 😅 I think I ended up sitting in the back but it is interesting that old churches didn’t have them.
Love this! Do lots more!
1:06:10 I guess there is a difference between US and Europe because when we had an SSPX priest from US (graduated Winona) he told that we MUST get dispensation to use NFP. We didn't believe it, read all of the related documents (and funny was that these were all printed by SSPX) which ALL TO ONE contradicted that we need any permission from anyone. Then we asked a freshly graduated SSPX priest from seminary in Germany and he told that not only NFP doesn't require permission, but if family has 5-6 children, they are considered to have fulfilled obligation to Church and society so they can use NFP without any reason at all.
37:34 I love this! I nurse my babies anywhere! I’ve even nursed in the communion line and received while nursing. I did have a cover but it was more for Fathers sake so he was shocked lol
39:46 the rest of the world really does view nudity differently. We have a kids book from Finland and the whole family just casually goes into the sauna often in the buff and it’s just whatever. The picture didn’t show genitals or breasts but it was also just normal. Like nudity doesn’t have to be sexual. That’s what we are trying to teach our kids. Yes modesty, but also your body is good and doesn’t have to be sexual
Vanderputten used the sspx purity culture to abuse me...He would say that the sspx was puritanical...that only he had a pure mind...he could look at the human body and not think impurity. He was able to twist the sspx narrative to his own pleasure. It is interesting thr reactions you have gotten in the parishes and it all makes sense...there is no balance to that thinking...it is crazy how much you have to rethink things...
I am truly sorry you experienced so much horror at the hands of that priest. I am glad you are able to talk about it. People need to know and understand how this abuse happens.
I am so sorry for your loss Anastasia! I wonder if that was the same midwife another friend had. Same story except that she labored for 13 hours all while the midwife was shaming her about going to the hospital! Then she almost died and the baby did die!😭. My midwife warned me about her and told me that story. Then later I met that poor couple. They did go on to have 4 more thankfully.
One of my daughters was so bummed out to not be able to have a home birth or Vback and I reassured her that these are the situations when C sections are such a blessing. She also hates having to space children so far apart. Another daughter needed a C Section for her 8th and 9th after home births for all the others. She is grateful for the babies being rescued.💕
Great discussion! I learned so much!
Hahah! You gals mad me laugh so much! Great talk! ❤️
Was this how the church was before Vatican 2?
And those are the incest cases that are reported!
Exactly Leslie!
Good to see you Veronica and Anastasia! Thank you for speaking up!
In normal catholic world priests dont't usually say anyrhing that should be medical decision....
Do you have the link to the Fr. Ray Ryland article?
You can find the link up above in the description box at the very bottom. 😊
23:40 Trent Horn just recently did a good podcast on Pearl and anti-feminists
Women in Traditionalism spells out wit.
That’s awesome 😊