Why we QUIT as Historical Advisors on Barbarians II (GER SUBS/deutsche Untertitel)
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- Опубліковано 25 вер 2024
- As many of You may already know we worked with Netflix and Gaumont on Barbarians I as historical advisors, especially influencing the designs for the roman army and consulting art and costume department and also managing the weapon department on Set. Despite not being 100% satisfied with the outcome we still felt pretty proud of our work, helping achieve a historical accuracy in the depiction of roman legions that - in modern filmmaking - has never been there before.
As Metatron now mentioned in one of his recent videos (Link below) we refused to extend our assignment as historical advisors for Season 2 after reading the script and being told that no major changes will be made anymore.
Here's the reasons that made us step back as historical advisors on this show.
Metatron: Barbarians Season 2 is a COMPLETE Disaster
• Barbarians Season 2 Is...
schrägoben: Hermannsdenkmal Detmold (Footage used)
• Hermannsdenkmal Detmold
Kaptorga - Visual History:
Sven Schlammlederson (Der Wikinger Schlamm und Leder Song) - Schlamm-und-Leder-Trilogie Teil 1
• Sven Schlammlederson (...
Curse of the Vikings (ENG)
• Curse of the Vikings
Sei mir nicht gram | WWI- Film / Erster Weltkrieg Kurzfilm | ENG SUBS
• Sei mir nicht gram | E...
Vikings vs. Archeology (ENG)
• VIKINGS Vs. Archaeology
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They could have made an excellent story about the political interactions between germanic tribes and the romans.
Nah that would be too boring and difficult to understand for normal people.
This is a shame. The events after Teutoburg were very interesting, irrespective of who you wish to make the good or bad guys.
Done in all ancient Latin and German.
It's was SUPERB....ABSOLUTELY SUPERB.......IM GUTTED that this is the situation......SORT IT OUT AS THE WORLD WANTS THIS U CAN COME BACK & MAKE UP
But then how would they have inserted their strong black female Carthagian woman into the story?
I’ll never understand why movies do this, because most of the time actual history is better then the movie versions.
Thats why they do it.
A lot of directors and show runners are egotistical. Thus, when they’re tasked with adapting something created by someone else (a preexisting work or history), they feel compelled to change things to make a name for themselves.
You can see that with Rings of Powers, the Authors THINK they can make a better story then Tolkien himself and fail utterly, same with people making movies based on history, they somehow think they can make it better and fail
@@Hesher93 I have a sneaky suspicion that because Tolkien's work is due to become public domain in the following decades they tried to make distinct characters and storylines that can be copyrighted as Amazon's property. So, in the future, they can milk their own characters and stories into reboots and spin-offs, make merchandise etc. without the fear of someone making something almost identical at the same time thus lessening their profit. I mean, how many versions of the Three Musketeers were there over the years? The only problem was they had no skill to pull it off and their product was dead on arrival.
Because some narcissistic, emotionally stunted fat cat in a suit thinks it'll make more money this way.
This is why I dont watch many shows on Netflix/Amazon Prime anymore. Its all about changing the script or changing history, and I had enough of it
Yeah, they seem obsessed with telling "their truth", which ends up being not true at all. And more than that, what they write is a mockery of history that wants to be taken seriously, which is just insulting to the audience, as well as to people who actually care about history.
The Witcher and Rings of Power shows are guilty too (I know, it's not changing history in fantasy, but the authors of the lore)
Ultimately, even worse than historical inaccuracies or blatant laziness is the fact that Netflix simply pumps out schlock
@@ringofasho7721 I 100% agree. They killed these incredibley good franchies
what is the alternative?
A series about historians written by barbarians? That sounds interesting.
Sort of does, but also not. :D
Ugbuk like write cave painting on paper or weird glass thing, Ugbuk like arguing with people on the internet, Ugbuk obsessed with grandfather
@@Thanadeez Ukbug is from shadow of war
@@Zazinikki Dont expose me like that
@@Thanadeez right? i thought you are hella creative until i read the next comment lol
I once had a chat with Robert Woosnam-Savage who is one of the curators at the Royal Armouries in Leeds. He's worked as an historical adviser on several productions, notably Rob Roy in the 1990s and he told me how it usually goes down. Basically the director would phone him up asking him if they could do x thing or show y object and Robert would say no its not really very historically accurate, you should try this instead. The director would say that was a good idea and then completely ignore the advice and just do whatever they were going to do in the first place!
That's the thing, though. Historical advisors are just that: advisors. They have no power other than the power of persuasion.
I sadly tend not to trust any show past it's first season if it makes claims at being "historically accurate," because that is a VERY broad and completely unenforceable claim, and is always the first thing to get punted into the midden as soon as a show starts getting popular.
@@peterclarke7240 as soon as the shows get rolling, they have dollar signs in their eyes^^
the wide mass will prefer action or drama over actual facts. sad story.
edit:typo
@@udozocklein6023 There was enough action and drama back then to have realistic plots. The problem is that the programme creators view early history as similar to fantasy and think they're free to make stuff up as it's easier than working with historians and archaeologists.
@@damionkeeling3103 no worry, i know. learning about history is a lot better than watching game of thrones :D
Congratulations on having the guts to quit!
Too often history advisors are just placed on the set as decoration so that their name can be listed in the credits.
even more guys to post this on UA-cam
If a production is going to have an historical advisor....get them in the writing room first. Actors can always do their thing if they put enough effort into it... but not even having both Nick Cage's will help a production if the story is just bonkers!
and... just to be TOTALLY FAIR! I think it is best I give an argument for both sides of this story....
How many historians would it take, having presented the severed heads of those responsible for ruining our general understanding of history by their 'vision' of events, for Hollywood to finally agree to our Culture's demand for well written stories?
@@derricktalbot8846 Here's why this doesn't happen much, writers like to write without anyone telling them how, and they're already dealing with producers, directors, input from cast members etc. etc. Unless someone higher up really cares about historical accuracy, historical advisors usually serve as inspiration at best, especially for vain, narcissistic Hollywood types
@@chstenswhy is Alexander the most historically accurate depiction of ancient warfare :(
Spent so much money on drama when that one battle makes the whole movie..
gotta pay your bills though...... but yes, im glad they quit in this case. they are clearly overqualified to be ignored.
i watched the invicta docuseries about germanicus and i thought barbarian 2 would deliver especially the part where Arminius and the brother had a dissbattle with a river between but no , seriously what did they smoke in the second season? the crime they did against germanicus Character is ridiculous
Yes, we know the brother of Arminius only from this historical source regarding to the dispute he had with Arminius on the bridge. Leaving this scene completely out of the plot was one of the things which is unacceptable here. And true, portraying Germanicus as a cheap sidekick is also unacceptable.
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory how do you rate the avenging varus series from invicta?
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory well...Barbarian I had the same problem of Barbarian II, totally inaccurate and sucks in all possible ways...
Nah Barbarian I was ok in my book.
You dont need to be accurate if you can tell the essence of the story. Often it is even better not to be that accurate, to reach the viewers.
They had it in season 1, but lost it in season 2.
For example the father/son Story with varus and ari, is at least speculation.
But it made it possible to elaborate his inner conflict.
Arminius being killed by his own kin because he started to overstep would have been a great dramatic story line. Game of Thrones showed that people actually like stories where people are gray and they have actual, understandable reasons behind what they are doing. (Until of course they got disconnected from the brain).
Also, I don't think that putting some more details into the narrative doesn't have to be "boring" or too complicated. Just take a look at the complexity of long running TV shows, from Game of Thrones to Avatar. The question is: How do you tell the story in an interesting way?
It's the details that keep people talking about any piece of media for years to come. Series like this come out with a bang and are forgotten just as fast, while people still talk about HBO's Rome.
This was amazing, I saw the trailer for season 2 and immediately knew in my head this was going to be completely different from season 1 and I wouldn’t like it…now I know why
The truth is that regular people learn from movies and dont fact check themselves. Most people put it in the back of their mind and thats where it remains forever.
Movies have a duty to be as accurate as possible OR not use historical names. They can just use fictional names and places.
im tired of propaganda films using historical names. You just cant do that if you want a "good guys" vs "bad guys" story, history is more complicated. It just ends up being racist.
You overestimate most people's ability to think in nuance with regards to affairs outside of their immediate family and workplace.
The context is unrelated but sir Humphrey Appleby in Yes Prime Minister sums it up well with this line.
"Of course not facts complicate things, all the press, the people and their elected representatives want to know is who are the goodies and who are the baddies".
m.ua-cam.com/video/VOdnISwLkSs/v-deo.html
That is the sad truth. People really underestimate the power of popular media.
300 had a duty to be historically accurate?
@@sudafedup Sure, why not. It would have been better anyway. Less funny and memeable, though.
@@gnomeimporta6912 Better, yes. That movie was awful. But I'm more of a freedom of expression kind of guy when it comes to films and entertainment. I just wish that if a film is claiming to be historical, it should say it while making the effort to be historical. 300 never claimed to be historically accurate, it was based on a graphic novel, which is fine.
I would much rather have a completely made up story, but with a realistic atmosphere (set design, costume design, behavior, etc) than something that butchers a historical event to the point its barely recognizable
In an Forrest far far away , a small ragtag group of rebels fight a mighty empire...
Cuts to scene of furry creatures with primitive weapons ambushing Imperial troops then close ups reveal the furry creatures to be beserkers with wolf and bear pelts.
All the best stories in the world have already been written. It's called history. The fact that people haven't realized that there's a massive audience for accurate, or at least not insultingly bad, historical entertainment will always astound me.
I find your reasons for quitting quite professional and honorable. Cheers to dignity and integrity
I miss HBO's Rome for all its political scheming. It was a show ahead of its time.
I miss it so much, it inspired me to become very interested in the history of Rome in general. I still watch ROME from time to time just to be in that world for a bit
Netflix: Our show is historically incorrect because we're trying to correct the wrongs of German nationalism.
Also Netflix: We're making a historically inaccurate show that praises German nationalism...
Yep. What makes this worse is that white dudes kicking ass is common on media but you hardly see Romans and Italians ever been portrayed with as much empowerment in action films, so they are already underdogs, and then they go and do this. So much for liberal Hollywood caring about underdogs and minority representation.
It’s clear the writers were trying to frame this as some sort of anti-colonial piece. I was so surprised that they didn’t implement the actual story of Arminius it’s a relatively compact story that could easily be told in a show within a reasonable number so seasons without becoming too complex or radical for a TV audience. It’s been done before with the show Spartacus. For all of the visual flaws and trashy aspects of that show the actual story of Spartacus in the later seasons was told with some accuracy. Also as a side note everyone seems to forget that the tribes in Barbarians mostly ended up being later displaced into France and were more the building blocks of the modern French state.
I am very proud of you guys for quitting. It takes a lot of courage to turn down a good paycheck for holding up quality standards.
It has always been telling for me when historical advisors or lore experts quit on a production. This should be a major red flag to studios they are going to lose the audience and therefore lose money.
I know Norsemen is a comedy and not going for accuracy, but I really enjoy the vibe and look they achieved with it. It gives a better idea of what a typical tribe might look and act like than Vikings in my opinion. Barbarians had a similar vibe of a bunch of farmers doing politics in the first few episodes which got me excited, but then season 2 happened :(
Dude, I know right? Weird how a low budget comedy is one of the most historically accurate pre-renaissance shows ever created by the western world.
They felt they'd hooked enough people with the first season to push wokeism with the second. Telling a story became secondary to the various agendas.
Great video, as usual. Glad you decided to make it in english - specially since the topic in general - is an international one. It seems to me, that the issues you had and described with "Barbaren" is currently a pretty general issue with most, if not all, historical (or history related) media productions. A very sad and concerning trend.
You guys deserve alot of respect and praise for staying true to your ideals by stepping down as historical advisors for such a show, even tho you probably lose a good source of income.
Keep up the good work and hopefully some more english videos in the future (even tho im german speaking myself)
"Dates back to the most *ANCIENT* of times!"
That delivery on that line was perfect
Oh wow, with a literal mic drop. I have to say, I've been following you guys for a long while now and it's clear that you have your hearts in the right places. Right now I'm working on my own TV series project that delves into the history of the Germanic tribes, BLACK FOREST WITCH. I know, some things are not accurate, but I really try to make it a meaningful story that makes sense.
Haha ich habe soeben einige Kommentare unter einem Geschichtsfenstervideo gelesen und als ich diesen Kommentar hier soeben las, dachte ich mir schon "kommt mir bekannt vor".
@@epstone 🤗
For university I had to write a term paper about the relations of Romans and Germanic people in the area of the Limes and I went a bit beyond that and looked at the instrumentalization of the Battle of Teutoburg forest. It was fascinating to see how the here mentioned nationalist propaganda used this battle (hell, it's even used in the unofficial hymn of Lower Saxony, where I live) but also how parodies already existed back then. Heinrich Heine with his "Wintermärchen" as well as Joseph Victor Scheffel with his song "Als die Römer frech geworden" were looking at this battle and its reception with an interesting sarcastiv view.
It is unfortunate that this one dimensional view on the Roman-Germanic relations is still reproduced today and it's even more unfortunate because I found the first season realtively intriguing although Ancient History is not my main field of study.
The first season was reasonable up to the actual titular battle which was appallingly bad.
I was so looking forward to the second season and its a shame that they ruined it, good on you for standing your ground you have earned a sub from me :)
the most disappointing part about this is that they were positioned so well to really explore one of the most interesting periods of history: Late Augustan, but they decided to not do that because *checks notes* reasons
Wow, I'm so pleased to have run across this channel - after my own heart! It's amazing how many delicious historical stories are out there, but the studios continue to try to rehash things that have sort of worked before. Surely a visit to the library or even a bookshop could rectify this!
Roman interactions with "barbarians" were always complex and way more interesting than what we get in pop-culture.
Absolutely.
Imagine how cool it would be if they depicted the revenge invasion the romans historically sent. They could have cool badass battles where the germans actualy fought cleverly and well against a supperior fighting force. But you can have the romans interacting with the locals as they set up camp in different places, and you can introduce a new villain. The main villain will be the historical germanicus who lead the invasions. He would start off being hateful, but as he sees and experiences these interactions with the locals, you can have him having letter comunication with arminius where arminius tries to get him to leave the tribes alone. In the finale something happens and germanicus sees past his hateful world view and comes to understand that conquest isn't good, not even for revenge or to civilize people. He decides that it's enough, and returns home, something arminius lets happen in peace. Germanicus then goes on about writing a letter to the emperor basically saying there is no point in conquering the place, but that he got revenge for rome. He concinces the emperor to leave germania alone.
This keeps in general line with historical events although makes the story more driven by it's main cast. It would mean something and actually go against the narratives of the extreme nationalists. The ending would be a bit bitter-sweet as the suffering the germans went through still occured, but in the end everyone can be hopeful that peace has prevailed.
The historical events that would have changed are as follows:
-The roman emperor (Augustus) didn't historically want to conquer germania after the teutaburg battle.
-Arminius didn't have any long term diplomatic contact with the romans, and just lost all his battles with them.
-Arminius lead his force to try and stop the romans on their way back but failed.
good comment :-)
Und ich hatte mich schon immer gefragt, warum die Römer so akkurat aussehen in Staffel 1 :).
Ja so ist das leider. Das fängt bei der Adaption von wirklich guten Stoffen/Werken an, siehe witcher, halo sowie HDR und endet in einer kompletten Verfälschung der realen Geschichte und wissenschaftlicher Fakten. Nur weil ein Showrunner oder eine Drehbuchautorin meint, ja was eigentlich? Ich habe die besser Version?
Exakt. Sie glauben offenbar wirklich, dass sie da was besser machen könnten als die Vorlage.
Hier war es eine historisch "korrektere" Variante als die Historie, bei Rings of Power eine Story, die "besser" und "moderner" war als das Original aus der Feder des seinerzeit vielleicht größten Linguisten, Historikers und Begründers eines ganzen Genres der Literatur.
Hollywood hat meines Erachtens nach seinen Höhepunkt gehabt und ist nun von der zivilisatorisch-kulturellen Größe direkt übergegangen zur Dekadenz. -.-
Trying to depict the Romans as purely evil is like Life of Brian... "what have the Romans ever done for us? Other than roads. And aqueducts. And sewers." etc.
Thanks for standing your ground. If only more people like you, not just historical advisors but also film advisors for scientists, paleontologists, military, medical, and other fields for film, would do the same.
I think you've made a first and big step here. I too, like many of your supporters online, are tired of witnessing historical accuracy being swept aside for the sake of poor decisions on entertainment value. I will continue to support your values and position however I can, until we see better, amazing and historically accurate shows!
3:32 As a Nordic person with a decades long hobbyist interest in history I feel a bout of anxious depression anytime someone reminds me of _that show_ 😢
I study history and in our seminar about Romans in Baden-Württemberg our Professor wanted us to watch the first season of Barbarians. Just to see how the current popular media portraits the Germanic and Roman relationships. She liked the first season and told us to watch the second at our own risk :D
Nice ich hatte ein Seminar da haben wir mit dem Dozenten über Rom (HBO) gequatscht. Der hat es zu dem Zeitpunkt zum erstenmal it seiner Freundin geschaut. Sein Fach Bereich ist das antike Griechenland und dann haben wir mit dem Dozenten über das Thema Politik und fehlende Personen (oder Personen mit einem anderen Charakter als in den Quellen erwähnt) geredet und dem die Verwandschaft Verhältnisse erwähnt. Das Cato Brutus Onkel war wurde mit keinem Wort erwähnt und KA warum die Servilia und Atia so sehr out of Charakter geschrieben haben. Ich schätze bis heute es lag am Geld😂😂😂
You know, I had really suspected that history took a backseat in the production of season 2, and this has confirmed my suspicions that historical advisors on the subject were missing.
It’s a damn shame, but hopefully another production crew will seek y’all out.
I feel this is the natural tendency of Netflix. They fund some overseas venture, it does well, then some Hollywood suit goes "Oh, this thing was POPULAR? LET'S RUIN IT!!!" And then it slams into the ground. Literally nothing is done for art, or historical accuracy, anymore.
they just kinda forced them to write and film a quick season 2 (that was never planed btw) Because people liked the first one. Same will happen to squid game because they also had no plans for a second season. Barbarians was planed as a one Season miniseries about the battle of teutoburg and thats it. They never had plans to go beyond that.
There should never have been a part II... The story of the varusschlacht was enough. Sadly no one will ever know its connection to the Rheingold legend
The aftermath of the Varusschlacht is really interesting and could be a great series sadly it was ruined
@@runkelpokk9 Yeah, Arminius' attempt to permanently establish his confederation and resulting murder actually is a good story.
Also, the Roman punitive expeditions that left Germania a desert afterwards would be very welcomed on a show
Aber leider muss es immer - verlangen die Aktionäre - ein Part II geben.
If its successful, the money people come in and demand more.
Ich fand auch schade, dass sie die Geschichte einfach so umgeschrieben haben. Ich verstehe es auch gar nicht, da der Originalstoff mit den Schlachten, die dem Teutoburger Wald folgten, sicherlich interessant genug gewesen wäre, um daraus 5 grandiose Staffeln zu schaffen.
Neben dem Verlassen der Geschichtlichkeit fand ich am schlimmsten:
+ Tiberius und Germanicus als Karikatur-Bösewichte
+ Römische Rüstungen, die wie Butter durchschnitten werden
+ Die Erstürmung des Römerlagers war irgendwie Obelix-mässig, aber dabei noch nicht einmal lustig.
+ Und warum zieht die gesamte Römerflotte aus dem Germanengebiet ab, nur weil ein Lager verloren war? Warum gehen sie nicht an anderer Stelle ans Ufer?
+ Flavus war einfach nervig. Ok, vielleicht war er es wirklich. Wissen wir natürlich nicht.
Interesting to learn from a seldom heard side of the story. Can’t imagine how frustrating being a historical advisor in any big budget production can be, so to be driven to the point of quitting shows just how bad it really was
If your not teaching in school you should be. If you are then keep doing it. You, sir, are a wonderful speaker and I really enjoyed your video which I found both informative and entertaining. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this video.
Thank You very much for Your compliment, sir!
Bin zwar ein großer Kollegah Fan, aber den Diss fand ich gigantisch. 😂😘 Find ich gut, dass ihr das so handhabt. Studiere selber Geschichte und kenne das Gefühl, wenn etwas komplett falsch dargestellt wird.
Was findest du denn an Kollegah toll? Der prollt doch nur rum, oder? Oder ist das was dir an ihm gefällt? Oder sind es die Reimketten?
Er war sprachlich einfach unglaublich kreativ, oftmals sehr lustig und zumindest zu Anfang eher bei Nerds als bei Gangsta-Rap Fans beliebt. Ich schließe hier von mir und einigen Freunden auf andere, aber viele Leute fanden ihn wirklich gut bis man langsam gemerkt hat, dass er den Scheiß leider doch nicht ironisch meint.
@@Alvias Danke für die Erklärung ;)
Kennst du Prezident? Kann ich sehr empfehlen wenn du auf Hiphop stehst, und dich nach Texten mit Substanz, die über "ich bin der krasseste" hinausgeht sehnst.
@@nostalji93 Genau, die Reimketten und auch ein wenig die Attitüde (2012-15). Mittlerweile finde ich ihn allerdings sehr befremdlich.
I watched Vinland Saga (Anime) which has this nice documentary like edits here and there to explain history of what happened in that time period. The series itself is very over the top, especially the funny fights. At one point a big viking guy throws a spear from 2 or so kilometers and hits like 8 guys. But still a very nice story with amazingly written characters
Absolutely. A story can be over the top, anime ultraviolent, but still be *accurate* in the areas where it matters.
Vinland Saga got it right, in connecting accuracy with comedy, action and drama
Funnily enough, shounen action fits with Norse sagas nicely. A big Viking guy throwing a spear from 2 kilometers and hitting 8 guys sounds like it could have been lifted directly from Arrow-Odd or something.
@@noctisocculta4820 lets not exaggerate though, it would fit perfectly if it was about the Viking mythology. The period covered in Vinland Saga happens centuries after the fall of Western Rome, by then there was a widespread European tradition of writing down histories with a much less embelished approach.
Gut das ihr da noch aussteigen konntet, weil mir auch zu Ohren gekommen ist, dass so große Produktionsfirmen auch mal ihre Angestellten mit Knebelverträgen versklaven. Zum Thema Hilfstruppen in römischen Diensten, finde ich das sogar Spartacus in Season 1 es versucht hatte komplexer zu machen, weil dort Spartacus zu einer solchen Einheit gehört hatte und am Ende jedoch von den dekadenten überheblichen Römern verarscht wurde. Sicher das ist auch in gewisser Weise ein Klischee, aber trotzdem besser dargestellt als ich in diesem Netflixunsinn. Also ist sogar Spartacus mit seinen Klischees akkurater als die Urukgermanhaiis. Kann man sich auch nicht ausdenken.
Wenn sie über Staffel 1 reden, zb in den Podcasts, merkst du schon ab und zu, dass es NDAs gab/gibt.
As a backgroung extra and occasional small part actor of the first season, Segimer's swordsman, I'm looking forward to this. I'm truly curious.
During first season I noticed many things that were historically inaccurate (especially during the battle scene), but they say s2 is a next level. I still didn't have the time to watch it though. 😌
I studied archaeology up to a Masters degree, I only managed to watch half an Episode of Barbarians before my brain quit and I had to stop. Kudos to Historical Advisors to manage to stay and get paid to season two. You should probably get a CATscan to make sure you didn't get brain cancer from this job!
UA-cam Algorithmus hat mich hier hergebracht.
Euer Video hat mir sehr gefallen und spiegelt absolut meinen Eindruck der zweiten Staffel wieder. Der Hinterhalt in der ersten Szene ist bereits ein guter Vorgeschmack auf die Peinlichkeiten, die darauf folgen.
Netflix Abo steht schwer auf der Kippe, aber das nicht erst seit Barbarians II.
algorithmus is such a mighty word 😭😭
ikr until that word I thought he was speaking in Latin
9:30 people who despise their own countries and history should not be allowed to make shows about them in the first place lmao
This kind of historic revisionism is so embarrassing and pathetic to look at.
Thank you for season 1, when I first saw Metellus ride into the village and inform them in Latin that Rome demanded tribute, It felt like I saw a real Centurion just do that. It was brilliant, I use screenshots from it as a reference when I draw Centurions and Arminius in the Cavalry mask again was brilliant. I thought season 2 would interesting , how would they show Germanicus get revenge when the "Barbarians" were the "good guys". I didn't expect they would use potion and Roman Legions from Asterix and Oberlix. To not be involved in season 2 shows a great respect to history which is why season 1 looked so good, Thanks again and good luck
But what you said about Arminius is spot on. The Imperial Germans and the Nazis were so desperate for some common national identity, that they really got quite ridiculous with the lengths they went to, in order to create some historical idea of the "Germanen". There's a wonderful book that really goes in depth on the subject, called From Tacitus to the Third Reich by Christopher B. Krebs.
It's a real shame too because I think the German efforts to create such a homogenous national identity, something that was much desired by nation-states in the 19th and 20th centuries, really attempts to erase some of what I find so interesting about the history of Germanic peoples, and that's their ability to adapt, and the diversity of their descendants and legacies, and the sheer multitude of kingdoms and cultures that the Germanic tribes helped give rise to.
“Diversity” 😂
Ethnically, yes. Racially, no. It’s obvious you’re some strain of leftist/progressivist. You people do the exact same thing, if not worse; you just outright refuse to acknowledge your own tendencies.
If you want to talk about an ethnic group immersing themselves in faux, diffusive insta-identities based on pure romantic tropes and completely made-up nonsense, I can think of one such choice demographic that comes to mind; one that’s about 14% of the US population. Not that you would ever admit that, though.
Respect from Canada, it's important for actual students of history to make their stand and call out bad historical filmmaking. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your videos
Nobody's gonna talk about that one Punic character bearing the longest grudge in history?
The timelines in that historical series have been changed sure but if you were to look at it in another historical perspective, considering Carthage finally fell in 146 B.C. (at the same time Macedon was formally annexed as a Roman province 😑), that's an incredibly f*cking loooooong time to bear a grudge for someone who wasn't there when Carthage fell or that particular someone is just incredibly old as f*ck..
I haven't seen any of it first hand but this particular grudge doesn't concern me too much. Some Germans still hate the French for Napoleon. They wouldn't say it that way but that's what it boils down to.
The fact that in the show both Dido AND Germanicus himself must have been over 150 years old is shortly adressed in the video, but as we continue right afterwords, it's none of our major concerns with Barbarians II. But yes, that backstory contains a very ironic inaccuracy given the fact that at this point Carthage had already been rebuilt... by the roman empire.
also like parthia is way closer to carthage and probably way more organized than angry germs in mud huts and considering that the Empire goes full germanicus on the germs better not go to the most concentrated area of roman armies
I think now more than ever people are craving historical accuracy rather than over the top entertainment and romanticised notions. Accuracy is breaking down preconceived ideas of people of the time and events that have shaped many contemporary ideas. I believe, due to the internet, the access of global historical information is what people are searching for. They say that if we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it, but when we interpret history in the manner of just making a entertaining story we can also do more damage.
no. It should be trying to be accurate. There is too much crap on the screen, modifying and changing history. I am a German living in the US, and the BS about my culture - then and now - is insulting. And it is true - the Romans brought along an elevation of culture to the Germanic tribes - road and bridge building, aqueducts, bread, all kinds of foods, agricultural and livestock upgrades....and yes - the Germanic tribes always fought each other, just like the Native Americans here in the US have done, long before European contact
02:18 that was the most energetic "Everything!" I ever heard, going to start using it from now on, great video! First one I've watched from you guys, I took a look at your channel, I think I'll stick around! Also since my moto is to give credit when credit is due, I would like to thank UA-cam for recomending you guys for me, came from the Metatron and I saw a recomendation on my homepage.
Historical advisors are one of the most important elements in historical movies/ TV series. Thing is their word isn't always heard and the director and producers ignore them whenever they can. It's not about nit-picking or being "awkward" it's to pay homage to these men and women whose story is being told, and also to further invite the viewer to step into a truly authentic world - no funny business.
Of course they ignore the advice.Its all about the money period.Its Hollywood.
Thucydides said that most people were ignorant of history because all they knew was what they learned in plays and oratorios. When will entertainment realize that they +are+ education for most people? They act like all their audience are history nerds like us who know better, rather than the unlearned who now heroize a toxic berserker version of their local body builder barista.
8:42 - It's quite clear why people do this. My example would be is that the Romans probably brought a lot more upgrades compared to the wooden settlements that the Germanic tribes lived in. The Romans had proper forts, proper housing etc (that is not to say they didn't have flaws they did) but when you see shining architecture and a chance to earn an even higher prestige within the ranks of Rome, there is no wonder so many Germanic nobles served with Rome, but there also could have been Germanic tribes that didn't like what Rome was. In the same way, the British ruled India - so what do the Indians do - they aspire to become higher within the Empire and eventually kick the Brits which they were doing by the 1920s-1930s and it escalated into WW2. This is not a comparison it's more of analogy. If a conqueror is offering you more benefits than your previous ruler did, then of course you'll do anything to improve your life and brag about the benefits of it.
I just found it interesting to say
I did not watch the second season because the first one was already to cringe for me and i am happy about it. I did enjoy this rant though :D
Not only did Barbarians S2 not capture the historical feel of a place and time, but neither did Barbarians S1. It still felt like you were taking 2020s people and placing them in the time of Arminius.
I see kind of a pattern there. Many shows and movies do that these days. It's really annoying and absurd.
@@je-freenorman7787 I’m pretty sure the Greeks called anyone who didn’t speak Greek “Barbarians”…
@@je-freenorman7787 You don’t think they didn’t call Persians by a certain name too? You can say someone is a barbarian while also recognizing a certain kind.
@@je-freenorman7787 You’re fascinatingly wrong. bárbaros is the Greek word, from which it derives, meant “babbler.” Then the Latins had it, and it was Barbarus to the Romans.
@@je-freenorman7787 Persians were called bárbaros because they didn’t speak Greek.
Even that best old Ben Hur movie clearly did show how the high class Jews of Israel were very Hellenized and in very good terms with many local Romans. Surprising.
Ah the magical "modern audience", i cant wait for the far future to meet these mystical people.
Whenever you read that something is made for "Modern audiences" it almost always about 'THE MESSAGE'
The don't really exit anymore, it's a thing of the past most movie makers haven't understood yet
Thank you so much for this analysis that's going to the deeper message of entertainment instead of surface details! I had the exact problem with the message of the show in the final episode of season 1. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'll follow your content with interest!
Slingshots never get any love. When games include them they have a range of like 20 feet, and everyone thinks they're far crappier than bows.
In their hayday, they were on par with bows with similar range and deadliness (as long as you were well skilled in it's operation). One of my favorite rounds the Romans used were whistler rounds, which they used to terrorize the celts at night during raids. Plus they were super easy to carry and farm less-than-optimal ammo for in a pinch, perfect for Legionnaires.
In Total War Rome 2 Romans only have slingshots and they are super important and valueable. Not saying Total War games are very accurate in general but in this point they are.
spannender Beitrag. Mich würde gerade interessieren, wie akkurat Ihr "The Fall of the Roman Empire" mit Sir Alec Guinness als Marc Aurelius findet. Mich hat dieser Film enorm beeindruckt nicht nur durch das hervorragende Schauspiel von Guiness, sondern auch die Ausstattung und eben auch die Kampfszenen, die ganze Atmosphäre / Marc Aurels Feldlager etc...
Kenne davon bisher nur die Rede Marc Aurels an die Rekruten, in der mit der diversen ethnischen Zusammensetzung der römischen Armee sehr schön umgegangen wird. Bin da erst die Tage drauf gestoßen durch einen schönen Beitrag von Arte F ('faire l'histoire' mit Patrick Boucheron, Folge: 'Römer gegen "Barbaren" - Konstruktion einer Legende'), in dem der Ausschnitt gefeatured wurde.
Sehe ihn mir gerne über die Feiertage mal an :-)
I‘ve had this thought for years now, literally every aspect of filmmaking is advancing year after year.
Except the writing.
I hope Metatron reacts to this.
I quit my viewing. So many issues i found with the show that simply became too much to overlook for example: Carthaginians were shown to be Sub Saharan Africans when they were infact Semitic Phoenicians. Which ironically!, while the show spouts all manners of nationalism one of the most nationalistic characters from the first season seems to have fallen off the nationalist band wagon despite the constant references to "a land of just our people." Constantly being stated around him.
Then there is constant references to prostitutes aswell as same sex relations. All things are modern myths & lies much akin to those said of a samesex promiscuous paradise in Ancient Greece.
Being Italiano, we can merely observe any remnent of our ancestors words in which they state how such acts were abhorrent to them. Though it did occur in later years it was never a norm, it was only during the reign of the late corruptive force of the republic. As we see today with our own republics. It was also in democratic states like Athens where such perversions flourished.
Usually always amongst the corrupt politicians and the foreign merchant classes.
In regards to this merely see the works of Cato the Elder, who mistakenly believes the decadence to be protruding from Hellas, when infact the infection came from the East. Then observe Avgvstvs and his reforms and sayings on morals and virtues. Look to the legend of Lucretia, an Italic famed for what?, *being chaste*.
Tacitus, when discussing Germania makes mention of the shared *Monogamy* of both peoples.
Finally observe the codes dictated by the Mos Maiorvm.
For Greece simply look to Xenophon with works such as the "Constitution of the Lacedaimonians"
Then look to people like Homer and Plato in his work "laws".
And many more who shared with the world the laws customs, and tribulations of the peoples of said states.
A quote by Xenophon for example from his above mentioned work "Constitution of the Lacedaimonians"
:"The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other."
I disagree with You. The depiction of a Carthagenian as what You call "sub-saharan african" is not wrong, historically. The ruling and most influencial culture of Carthage would have been phoenician, that is true. But much like all urban centres of the mediterrannean, Carthage was a multiethnic and multicultural place and there was a lot of exchange and migration. Also the roman empire and the city of Rome weren't ethnically homogenous societies of just italics. Rome was a melting pot and it's ability to include foreign influences in their own ways and profit from them is what made the roman empire possible in the first place.
Claiming ancient cultures to be 'ethnically pure' societies means falling for the same kind of myth as Barbarians II fell for.
But those are projections of modern nationalism onto a period in time, where nations in a modern sense didn't even exist at all.
And homosexuality in the ancient times are neither "modern myths" nor "lies". Stating that shows me that Your own image of the time is also quite problematic and inaccurate in comparison with the current state of historical and archeological research.
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory Romans called Italy : Domina Provinciarum (Sovereign of the provinces), Rectrix Mundi (Governor of the World) and Omnium Terrarum Parens (Mothers of All the lands) since Latins defined themselves as natives of Italy and they referred to the other Italic tribes as “our brothers”.
The Italics were the only ones who were not forced to pay any tax for the cultivation of land in Italy because in Roman law there was the "ius Italicum": the law according to which Italians were not forced to pay to cultivate the land of origin of the Romans. So, Latins thought themselves to be Italians. Romans? Anyone born in the empire was a Roman but only the Latins and other Italic tribes were Italics. Italians, as Latins, always defined themselves as Italians and this is a form of tribalism/Nationalism that never stopped in Italy from before the empire to nowadays. So, yes there were emperors from every corner of the empire and the Romans incorporated deities of all kinds recognizing their credit to the creators but still had a favoritism for the Italians because those who ran the empire were predominantly Italians. Yes ofcourse an empire would encompass a multitude but Nationalism never escaped them.
As for Carthage, not once did i say that it was completely homogenious. It wasn't. However, the vast majority were infact Punic, the Romans and Greeks note their enslavement of the local populaces and policies against said folk.
As for same sex i gave reference to such characters in history who delve into the subject, rather then seek them out yourself you chose to consider my references as being "problematic".
Let our ancestors speak for themselves. Lets not allow modern dogmatic bias to step in the way of understanding our ancestors customs and way of life. Thus you are welcome to disagree but facts care not for neither my own or your opinion on such matters.
(And Do forgive any spelling errors, i am not a good Inglese speaker.)
So when future historians sequence your genetic code, should they assume your genetic makeup is representative of every single individual who ever resided within the borders of your nation?
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory the problem I’ve always found is a lot of people who claim to be interested in history, aren’t really interested in history at all. They’re interested in a *story,* and any new development that contradicts that story is “rEviSiOnIsM”.
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory also, respect for remaining professional and not folding to the reactionary sentiment that seems to be everywhere these days, even if it costs you in the short term. You’ve earned yourself a sub 🙌
vielen Dank, dass ihr ausgestiegen seid - ich teile eure Empörung.
(und ja, ich habe mir auch Metatrons Beitrag angesehen und eigentlich teile ich auch seine Empörung über die historischen Lügen )
I really respect you 1) for trying to change this from the inside. I know you must have had to compromise a lot before deciding to quit, sometimes staying is harder than leaving
2) for quitting when you realized you could not have an effect on the direction the show took.
YEEEEESSSS!!! THANK YOU FOR DOIN' IT IN ENGLISH!!!
Batt, mei Englisch is not se Jello fromm se Egg. Ei'm anderständing bäreli wot hi säs. 😅
@@MarpoLoco Setts vai ser are tschörmen sabtaitls ;-)
@@jkmaxwell8836
Hahaha 🤣. Indihd.
Wish you a Merry Christmas.
@@MarpoLoco Merry Christmas to You too, Sir!
Brilliant! Love the style and love that you, an actual historical expert is calling Netflix out for it's blatant politicizing and changing of history.
The original sinn of movies showing unhistorical stuff and the reason why historical advisors are so valuable is the horned viking helmet. It first appeared in some black/white non-vocal Hollywood movie in the 1920s and has since then imprinted the WRONG perception in our global societies that vikings actually wore these helmets. It is so imprinted that this wrong piece of equipment keeps appearing in new movies again and again, probably because movie producers think that without this WRONG piece of equipment the audience do not identify the actors as vikings by now
And so the error replicates itself.
And society gets dumber instead of learing something.
Movies have the potential to shape perception and perception shapes realities. A distorted perception of reality is never good.
Thank you for your hard work. I am deeply sad, that Barbarians 2 went down the way it did. Good for you that you left. I'm not even going to watch that history altering crap. Keep up the good and honest work!
It was the right thing to do. Thank you. I respect the decision made by you and the other involved historian consultants for walking out on that show. To be fair it seems like that show itself walked out in depicting history for what it was in a reasonable manner. Obviously there is a balance with the 'Hollywood' action (consumer demand) and maintaining the historical accuracy/depiction/representation of societies and historical figures. I definitely agree it crosses that line when the ones who write the script want to go too far deep into an ascribed narrative (including arguably ideological/revisionism) that crosses the line against probably some main aspects of historical accuracy including when inaccurately depicting/misrepresenting the societies as well as over demonizing ones (e.g: the Romans being depicted too much as the blatant overt bad guys when it was not necessarily that way at least depending on a relative point of view one can argue as well as what exactly is being depicted for what actually transpired).
Macht nen Zweitkanal in Englisch auf, ansonsten verschluckt sich der algorythmus und die abonennten- eigene Erfahrung... Funzt nicht beides, sprachlich zusammen
Wissen wir! :D
@@KaptorgaVisualHistory supi.... Muss ja nicht jeder den gleichen Fehler machen
Thanks for being responsible and dutiful to history
It's rare to see people hold there values high
I salute you 🫡
Wow, very well summarized Video about the self made problems of Netflix. I kinda feel like they dont even care anymore about losing money, it almost feels like they just want to produce disaster after disaster. I cant really understand why?
Anyway, amazing video, thank you for speaking your mind as honestly as you did. Also, I cant wait to explore your channel a bit more, relived history is an amazing topic.
You guys are based in Germany right?
Yes we are, Art Historian, Historian and Archeologist, a bit of polish upbringing in the mix. :D
Thank You very much! Yes we're based in Germany. But as said in the video we're planning to do more content in English.
Taxes? Maybe they can get a deduction for "losses" somehow? Movie studios do it. Dunno if it's possible to do for them?
Kudos to you! I was hyped for Barbarians 1 and watched it in German! Truly Magical! Alas, Netflix and many big film makers are too short sighted to see the complexity of history, that it isn't just a Good vs Evil (Though sometimes it's like that), it's an interconnected web of everything and just reducing it to a line to fit the "modern audience" is just frustrating! Kudos to you guys!
History is in no way boring, you can easily make a show very entertaining based on history
I don't know.....a series on the Ptolemies or Sophonisba might be rather......risque.
No, seriously.
@@meilinchan7314 HBO does that risque all the time lol
Splendid! Thank you, Kaptorga!
I feel you. Thx for that heartfelt statement.
I actually take issue with equipment that isn't period, granted I allow a bit of creative license but at least keep it within reason. The accuracy of historical events does have to follow at least a general outline of history meaning if they are referring to a specific invasion or battle at least get the year, general area, and key figures the rest fine you can even make stuff up. I do want to be entertained but sometimes you have to make sure that it fits the reality of the time period. Balearic slingers are not Roman they are auxiliaries basically mercenaries so I am not sure why they would feature instead of archers that Roman's used.
Die zweite Staffel von Barbarians ist das deutsche Äquivalent zu Braveheart was historische Authentizität angeht
Viel schlimmer, am Braveheart William Wallace stirbt, die Frauen sind keine Mega-Krieger und es gibt kein Tokenafrikaner
als Halbafrikaner finde ich die Inklusion ein bisschen bescheuert vor allem dass diese Karhagerin eine Zeitreiserin ist und sich an Rom rächen und nicht dass logische macht und Parthia geht sondern durch das gesamte römische Reich reist um ein paar primitive Barbaren zu finden.
@@laisphinto6372 Danke, stimmt!
@@ViriatoII ich verstehe nicht warum ihr euch daran immer am meisten aufhängt.
Die ganzen Punkte aus dem Video verstehe ich und kann ich nachvollziehen. Dieser generelle hass immer wenn eine dunkelhäutige Person in Europa in einer historischen Serie zu sehen ist, ist aber einfach blöd. Klar wir kennen nicht wirklich viele aber selbst in prähistorischen Zeiten gab es Menschen die in den Alpen geboren wurden und in England gestorben sind. Das Handelsnetzwerk zwischen Nordeuropa und dem Mittelmeer florierte seit der Bronzezeit mit Unterbrechungen. Dass eine dunkelhäutige Person speziell in der Zeit der Römer in nordeuropa zu sehen ist, ist jetzt nicht mega unplausibel.
@@lenoio512 (sorry, I'll write in english, I'm Portuguese)
in that time, such a different looking person would be subject to huge discrimination and abuse to the point of death, which is conveniently ignored in all these series. I worked in Morocco and they told me "140y ago from this town southwards, any caught European would be decapitated." 2 years later, 2 Scandinavian girls my age were r¤ped and decapitated on camera there. That's how tribal societies were to foreigners in Europe as well.
You can't be hurt by the mild internet racism and at the same time expect that people were treated fairer 2000 years ago, it was much worse, like Africa. The Roman Empire was multi-ethnic, but the Sahara was a huge barrier, much bigger than in the middle ages because there were no cammels there back then.
The reason why this irks so much is because it's a political insertion, which has become inescapable in this landscape of bland movies in a time that Europe is suffering the biggest demographic shift since the Bronze Age, accompanied by growing violent crime and social fragmentation, where the political message is "accept these changes or you're enemy number 1". I'm always fair and kind to any person regardless of race, but this is wrong as a mass phenomenon and it hurts me as much as seeing the Amazon rainforest being destroyed, or Cheetas going extinct.
VERY GOOD Commentary My Brother And Thank You And your Comrades for Standing Up to this MADNESS, It SICKENS Me to No End Every Time I See this Mess!
Respect for showing what is the reality, from a non partisan Sicilian/Italian
Respect for writing your actual culture before the one prescribed to you by your artificial nation.
@@TheWoollyFrog the two aren't mutually exclusive, but complementary. Italian identity isn't monolithical but varies throughout the regions. Despite our differences we also share many things, and we've always had.
Greetings from a Venetian/italian :)
@@commissiotibinobiliviro1408 "Share" is a weird thing to say when your region's native language has more in common with French than with Florentine Tuscan (Italian).
@@TheWoollyFrog idk where you got that information from, but I highly doubt that that's true. In any case I recommend you taking a trip to Veneto and asking people whether they feel more akin to a frenchman or a tuscan, whatever language similiraties there might be haha...
Jokes aside, im not saying that you dont have a point, but I think you exaggerated it, that's all :)
I'm so happy that this video and your channel was suggested to me. As an American of 75% German, Swedish, and Danish combined descent, I am always curious about the history of my ancestors, both good and bad. I did like the show and both of it's seasons, but I also had no idea how historically inaccurate it was. I loved Vikings, but I kind of knew it was mostly inaccurate. I can't wait to watch more from your channel, as I love to learn the history and Language of my ancestors that was lost, when my families immigrated to the states. Also as an American, it pains me greatly to know that one of our recent leaders and history have helped give rise to a new Nationalist movement across the globe, as if we should have learned these lessons already. Pride in ones country shouldn't mean we become violently superior to those around us, and live at there expense since we are better than "they"
Hmmm, if you are referring to Trump, obnoxious and narcissistic, yes, and other things, but he is the first president in decades to NOT get us into a war..... (which I as a fmr Marine and son of a WWII and Korea Marine appreciated)....He also wanted US troops out of Syria and for the US to wind down NATO. And Is wanting peace, and for Americans to have high-paying industrial jobs (as we used to when I was young, and high-school graduates with union-wage jobs could buy a house and a new car) "hypernationalism"?
Stopped playing when he said “toxic masculinity”.
Snowflake.
Ikr what a feggiboi
Snowflake ?
Hey Kaptorga. Since you brought up the long lasting cultural significance of Arminius, I wanted to share an anecdote. The state of Missouri has a small town by the name of Hermann. German immigrants who came after the failed nationalist/liberal revolutios (what we call 48ers) founded it as a utopian society. Fittingly, they named the town after the hero Arminius! No one speaks German around there nowadays, but the rich winemaking tradition of the German Rhineland is still evident through the myriad local vineyards. Goes to show just how far the legend of Arminius stretched!
The portrayal of Vikings and celts has always been extremely cliched and cringe. People screaming about “honor” with shaved heads, blue paint, half naked… I can’t consume just about any viking related media. And the Brits are just as guilty of this as the Americans.
Hmmm. I wonder why British interpretations of Vikings would be this way? I couldn't possibly fathom as to why THE BRITISH may not view the Vikings in the contemporary (and frankly also cringe and too far the other way) view of the Vikings as a glorious people of high culture and education.
Those poor Vikings really don't deserve their reputation. Lol.
Not really Vikings anymore since it is about the end of Anglo-Saxon rule over England but '1066 - The Battle For Middle Earth' is not too bad apart from a bit much fur and some of the gear being anachronistic or of bad quality: ua-cam.com/video/wpUQx6STfxI/v-deo.html
@@dariuslateralus7128 thanks for sharing that video bro! Very cool film.
The silver lining is, there is still need for a good film depicting this era and region in history (accurately). 🍻
Großartig, vielen Dank!
Lalo Salamanca as Germanicus looking for the lost Legion Eagles, while killing everyone in his way, would have been a great story.
He even looks like a Roman if you took away the mustache
Love it! Kick it, algorithm!
Evil roman Empire
Angry Dovatthy noises
When I heard that the only black character went to Germania to avenge the death of her family in Carthargum I just laughed my a33 and said: forget it
Toxic what?
Arminius and Germanicus would made for a wonderful political drama. Showing how both of them had maneuver politically to achieve what they did and how in the end despite that they both ended up dead.
What slayed me in the first season were the constant references to Norse mythology, all of which we know from documents that postdate Arminius' days by more than a thousand years.
@@Me-yq1fl
My brother, using a late medieval source as a reference for what people who are somewhat related and had some gods in common might have believed in the first century CE is not a good look.
Putting aside questions of what Germanic tribes believed in during the early days of the Roman Empire (the answer to which is not as clear-cut as you say it is) we also have no sources indicating that the characterization of the gods of the the continental Germanic tribes was at all similar to that in the Norse sagas. Nothing about Woden's wolves and ravens, nothing about Thunor's hammer, or Tiu missing a hand. No reference to a twilight of the gods.
@@avishaiedenburg1102 So? They had no sources and took the next best thing they could find.
This is the first I have heard or seen of your channel and from this exposure I am interested in seeing more.
I will attempt to check out what English videos you have.
In refrence to your question at the end of the video I am grateful foir what english videos you have and would welcome more at this point.