I have a set of Reaper Bones from the first kickstarter that I use for bulk minis. Floppy weapons and mold lines all over, so they're not the best for heroes or important enemies/NPCs.
For hordes of Undead I use the models from Cursed City, Orcs and Goblins are more GW minis, terrain and NPCs are from Archon Studios, and PCs tend to be from either brand. I've used bits from Reaper minis to customize others. Their metal ones have good detail but their plastic ones have softer details and are weird to work with because of the plastic they are made from.
@@Painted4Combat A few. They're floppier than heroclix or mage knight. I believe the newer D&D unpainted minis are a similar material. It resists primer but you can paint them unprimed somehow.
My biggest problem with these D&D minis are that they're lower detail then Warhammer minis, a Table Top War Game. In Warhammer, where games have each player bringing 50+ minis, where there are only supposed to be one or two stand out center piece models, the average infantry men, just a part of a massive blob, has higher detail than D&D minis, where each mini is basically the center piece for each player. In a game that's essentially made up of entirely center piece models, you'd think D&D would have Warhammer beat. Also how expensive to you have to be to make WARHAMMER look like a cheap by comparison.
@@tf2warhammerdude the primary issue is honestly the scale. D&D minis are tiny, even compared to Warhammer. I think they should be twice the size, then they’d actually be able to work in a lot of detail
Probably the issue is also that the miniatures are badly pre-primed, with thick paint covering most of the thinner details. Also stripping them apparently is almost impossible without ruining the figure
The biggest thing being missed as a possible reason is also the most likely: hasbro knows what they have with the DnD brand so they don't worry about quality or price when putting out these things. They really have no incentive to be better than their competitors because they aren't even actually competing. People who go to great lengths to find the best stuff online wouldn't want their minis anyway, and people who just want a quick cheap monster for their table won't be looking beyond the shelves of their local store or maybe Amazon.
Wizkid minis are the reason I got into 3d printing. I wanted minis specifically because I liked painting them and wanted to make my own characters for D&D. I did not enjoy the very limited selection nor the quality of them, so I decided to get a printer.. Turns out I *really* like painting and have gone on to display painting so getting a printer really worked out in my favour :)
100% this. I've been modeling and painting since I was very young, and the fact that RPG minis are sort of _your_ character - it's a character that's meant to be long-lived, lends itself to having a paint job that is more 'heroic' instead of merely trying to get an entire army on the table quickly. That said, after 3D printing (with tightly temp-controlled and well-calibrated resins), it's been interesting to see how the "flexible" resins become _very_ brittle after a few months, and dropping a mini just shatters it. Wizkid minis don't do that. Along with this, I _really don't care_ about the things that make a "mini" paint: Mini paints provide lore-accurate colors used for an _army_ that remain consistent from year to year, and have complementary shades to make painting those lore-specific color schemes faster. I don't care about 'skill in a bottle' to get an _entire army_ on the table faster. "Mini paints" seem geared _heavily_ towards putting color-coordinated armies on the table quickly, and you _pay_ for that specialization.
@@pariahzero I've always used a semi-brittle resin so that I can get the fine details with an older model printer, so I'm already going in with the understanding that the models will be brittle. Paints depend on the brand for mini paints. If you look at Kimera paints for example, these paints are marketed towards mini painters specifically. The pigments are ground finer than normal artist grade paints... at least in the higher quality brands. If you're using Citadel paints, get yourself away from those. Look into Pro-Acryl for a better paint (it's not everyone's fave brand, but I like them). Many mini-paints are not single pigment which ruins colour mixing. I do occasionally dip into Citadel paints when I really don't feel like mixing a specific shade, or dip into the contrast paints for a specific effect I'm going for, but those aren't my daily drivers by any means.
@@piptarou I'm not convinced about being "finer ground". If you're talking about the 'craft' paints in the artist section at Walmart, sure. If you're talking the acrylics at a fine art store, it's a different matter entirely. I've bought (sampled?) Pro-acryl, Vallejo, and a few others to try them out. They're fine - but they are _much_ more expensive for their performance than the airbrush paints I've used for over a decade.
@@pariahzero So, from the perspective of a semi-professional painter (done commissions and one a couple painting competitions) there is a not insignificant difference between craft paints and mini paints. If you don't really care about the quality of the paint nor things like coverage, flow etc. sure, they are fine. But the overall quality of mini paints, at least to me, is so significant that I couldn't go back to cheap craft paints. If you just want to get minis on the table though, craft paints will get the job done. I just find them incredibly frustrating to use
@@raeishimura I can understand the assumption I'm using craft paints. That is not the case, however. I've been painting things _other_ than minis using professional paints for... 15-ish years now. These paints have pigments every bit as fine (or finer) than the mini paint brands. As you'd expect, there are specialized mediums (and other addins) to modify the paint to obtain properties you desire. I've certainly _tried_ a few mini paint brands. They're fine. Since I already have the professional paint on my shelves, I started using it, and it works as well or better than the mini paints. And it costs less. The big tradeoff (which I didn't _quite_ say in the first comment): You _absolutely_ have to mix your colors.
Frostgrave and Oathmark are also good, inexpensive options for D&D characters. They are not as big as GW's models, but they scale fine against the Wizkids models, and for the price of a Space Marine 10 man unit, I got myself a box of 20 soldiers and another box of 8 wizards from Fostgrave. And they are also very customizable.
Victrix vikings or saxons, Wargames Atlantic also has great minis (especially the spiders). Frostgrave Wizards 1 and 2 are the best kits to give to new mini painters, so many hands, so many heads.
If you want quick, but don't want to lose the detail, I have found that overall the newer metal casts, plastic casts and resin casts from Reaper miniatures are not only superior sculpts to Wizkids but are easily fixable and cleaned up with a simple nail file, mould line remover, and/or flat cutters, if you even need to in the first place as often times they come without issues and only need their mould lines flattened like any other plastic miniature, but don't require all the gluing which I really like sometimes. These miniature are always on sale online pretty much everywhere except Amazon generally, for good prices, like 3-6 usd a figure depending on material. I love painting these ones. So if someone happens to see this post and is not happy with the WizKid models, try Reaper models. Do not buy the white ones though those are the lowest quality and often are bent unless you really really want it and can't find it in one of the other materials they offer, I guess you can use hot water to kind of fix it, but I haven't had that work for me as well as people claim. And yes there's 3d printing yada yada yada like you mentioned in your video, and I know people are gonna bring it up in comments, but I've personally developed an allergy to the resin despite taking all precautions and can no longer 3-D print, and I'm not paying the hyper inflated prices that other people are charging for 3-D prints with cheap fragile resin that we all know cost way less than even the WizKid models in the first place. As a result, Reaper has kind of been a good in between for me at the moment while I work a situation out since, I got a friend who can 3-D print, so in the future I'll be able to do that but right now these are the guys giving me some nice painting sculpts besides plastic kits from GW and yeah those are great too. Also might I mention, while not as good, Osprey Games has miniature lines for both Frostgrave and Stargrave that are kind of what you're describing. They cost roughly around $25-$35 USD for a box of 20 customizable miniatures with tons of extra bits, great for bashing, they are 28mm but they fit in with the whole 25 to 32 mm if you're not super picky, especially as nonplayer characters. A final option for plastic miniature kits, is Wargames Atlantic. They are very similar to the Frostgrave line, except way more options, and have up to 24 in the boxes. They also have a focus on some historical theming with these boxes offering very specific types of era accurate soldiers that would be recognizable to any historian from all over history past and present. Along with that, they also carry a lot of peasants and regular people as models which you know are also great for NPC's. Lots of great stuff in their lineup.
I’d also recommend Wargames Atlantic kits, even if they don’t exactly match the traditional DnD aesthetic. They have a large range of kits, including some fantasy kits like Halfing warriors and skeletons, but also historical kits for stuff like Roman Legionaries, Crusader style knights, Conquistadors, and more modern stuff from both World Wars. They also have a ton of Sci-Fi stuff. Its a slightly different look, but 24-30 models for 35USD is a good price. Each kit comes with like 2-3 heads, 2-3 sets of arms, and 2-3 sets of extra bits per body.
I think this is due to a handful of factors: 1. Durability as another commenter pointed out, wargaming and display miniatures are normally only handled by the owner while rpg miniatures are likely handled by the players as well. 2. ttrpg players don't paint. Most any ttrpg players who paint their miniatures almost always also wargame or have a background in wargaming. Unpainted miniatures are a common sight at d&d tables, so miniatures targeted at a d&d audience arent gonna held to the same standard. 3. Cost. Not only does wizards of the coast and hasbro want to maximize cash, d&d players spend much less money than wargaming players, and d&d miniatures are less resusable than a wargaming army being played with regularly since aside from PCs theyre just for one encounter (this is also a big factor in my most ttrpg players dont paint their miniatures in my guess). Really cool video topic, ive painted a few wizkids miniatures myself and they are generally a bit disappointing, i think the sweet spot is in touching up the nicer looking prepainted ones. I have just about every type of material miniatures can be made of in my rpg miniature collection and ive found my favorites are single piece metal miniatures done by indie scuptors (Heekin Pewter is one of my favorite lines) or by Reaper miniatures. They can be detailed at an equal level as multipart plastics with crisp edges but are less prep work and have a sadisfying weight, all while being pretty affordable (often like $10 a model), just not a great option for huge miniatures which is where stuff like wizkids $20 dragons really shine imo. Hopefully this comment isnt too long lol just a neat topic which got me thinking
I have a large assortment of the wizkids pre-primed minis. I typically speed paint a couple on days that I’ve spent my sessions just assembling or priming other minis. I find them to be an enjoyable cap to a painting session that otherwise wouldn’t have produced a complete mini. They’re really great to fill out my collection for npcs and monsters that otherwise aren’t on the table that long. I have a few humanoids from it that ended up looking pretty great for a PC too, they’re not all mediocre.
For sure! As you say, I can see them being great for times where you don't expect to use characters/creatures on the table for long; and its awesome to hear you've found some that are good enough to get used for PC's.
As a dnd player, minis are a luxury. Likely to just use print outs cut to a circle or coins or m&ms. things on a table are a means to an end for the game. As an outsider, wargammers are into painting models, not so much playing games with them. It really looks like showing up to game is just a chance to show off models and paint jobs for wargammers So yeah for ttrpg, lower quality is acceptable as they’re just placeholders for tactical rules
I will correct you on that if I may. *Some* Wargamers are into painting models. The wargaming hobby is basically split into three little subhobbies. There's the Collecting, the Painting and the Playing, where people sit on each of those can vary WILDLY between each person. Some may enjoy the collecting, the act of buying, building and converting a model and then leaving it unpainted and unplayed. Some, as you've pointed out, just enjoy the act of painting, to them they're focused on getting the best possible painted mini they can achieve and will spend DAYS on a single miniature and regular enter painting contests or post their painted minis online. Then there's the playing side, these people don't care for the painting and assembling, viewing it as a requirement and will do the absolute basics they can to get an army 'tabletop ready' (or Painted for Combat), they just want to build army lists and enjoy the act of playing the game and engaging with the rules and will quite gladly play with unpainted minis in casual games HOWEVER all major tournaments have a 'painting requirement' or you lose points which can cost you the game and thus your chance to win, hence the 'tabletop standard' level of paint. Now not everyone is going to be all one thing (some are but most aren't), Some are going to enjoy the act of building, converting and painting but not playing, some might enjoy the act of painting and playing but find building a hastle, some may dabble a bit on all three. Your view of Wargamers is pretty damn narrow if I'm honest but I get it as your someone looking from the outside in. Also it depends *which* Wargame you're talking about, Skirmish games will often have players focusing more on the converting and painting side because you only have 6-10 models at most and thus each individual needs to stand out more. If you're painting for something like 40k or One Page Rules, which require sizeable armies, painting each individual squad member to a stupidly high standard isn't really a clever idea because sometimes you'll be painting 100+ miniatures for an army and spending 30 hours on each guy is...well it's just not sensible. So you'll 'batch paint' the rank and file chaff units and focus more on the special characters.
As a DM, who is into mini painting, I agree that minis on a TTRPG is a luxury. However although it is time consuming to paint them and expensive even if you print the ( due to having a lot of different stuff to find buy and print), the experience of having a bunch of adults do like kids when I open the box is priceless.
Wizkids minis are great for what they are. They are cheap (around $6 for 2 models for standard sized creatures), very very difficult to damage due to the softer plastic they are made from, very easy to kitbash due to that softer plastic being easy to cut and glue. Some sculpts are pretty plain like the one you showed here but many are much more detailed and interesting. Is there a problem with bent weapons? Absolutely and its a bit annoying, but you can fix them quickly with hot water. I like that you compare them pricewise to 3d printing with one breath saying they aren't cheap, but then with the next say that "not everyone has the space to 3d print" when talking about detail and usability. So which is it? 3d printing files are generally $5 per model and yes you can print as many as you want but again that has a big upfront cost in both time, money, and space. Resin is also much more fragile than the plastic used by wizkids and reaper. Even the super expensive, super flexible resin is, and if you don't add harder resin to the mix with super flexible resin they will print with muddier details in my experience. The cool thing about 3d printing is that there are a bunch of free models on places like thingiverse so you can get some savings there( and there is this one guy who is making models of every monster in dnd and making them free, so he's a hero). The frameworks minis I agree are too pricey but they are mostly focused around bosses or player characters not just regular mooks, so when you compare them to single mini Warhammer boxes with named Captains/bosses they cost relatively the same and even cheaper in some cases. I cannot comment on Arkon too much as I have been unaware of them till just now. But based on what you've shown they are sprue kits which means that yes they will likely be more detailed but will be much more expensive but also much more fragile. You say you spent $700 dollars on those boxes which aint cheap. You say youll get 700 minis out of it which is impressive, if true (Again I'm unfamiliar with what each of those boxes contain). Someone in the comments mentioned Frostgrave and Oathmark and those look pretty cool. I might try looking into them. Mostly what I paint is wizkids and printed minis and in my experience they are generally less detailed but have more than plenty of them to be cool and still be painted to a high standard if you want. Yes the require fixing and sanding but so do 3d prints and even sprue models. I enjoy painting both. Reaper is great too but their models are generally bigger but more flexible.
I primarily 3D print my minis currently but back when i first started, i bought a good handful of minis like the Wizkids and Reaper. For me it was easy, convenient and cheap enough.
But they don't have the LOTR party types and that's what D&D really needs. One mini per player, a big creature (any one) for the big bad, and a few smaller ones for their guards.
It's funny cause 5 or 6 years ago the rank and file non-hero citadel miniatures were cheaper than buying the same amount of models that were made by licensed D&D companies.
The human scale WIzkids minis are awful to paint, but the larger monster minis are passable... on the off chance you can find the monsters you want actually in stock...
I wouldn't actually call wizkids minis easy to paint in a lot of cases, a lot of them have super awkward to get to spots and... I dunno I just don't find them fun to paint. The faces always look like blank masks like you can't put any detail in them. Creatures and whatnot are fine usually though, just humanoids suck.
I suppose the new D&D models it is an economy of scale as HIPs moulds are expensive and the more detailed the more expensive (£200,000 for the machine then for the die to produce the miniature so if your going good quality steel about £25,000 to £50,000, then if the parts are clipped most likely a person has to do that as warhammer kits are just pushed out into boxes) it’s why individual models cost more than a squad as you will buy less of them. (I know gw does overcharge massively but that’s another topic.) Wiz kids models are pvc it’s a different material requiring different moulds and machines that are not as expensive so they can make them fast and cheap (heroquest the new game are this as are some of Mantics old kits). Cheaper to make and easier to repair the moulds so it can be sold cheaper.
I think it's tragic that American and European miniatures are so primitive compared to what the industry is actually capable of that GW's miniatures are considered high quality. Calling them 20 years behind the times in quality is an understatement given how many where around even back then and where still behind the curb, yet the industry is content with this state of affairs.
I think these are very much not directed at people who paint at your level, or even anywhere near it. They seem to be intended for people who are in DnD for the RPG and are not, or are very minorly interested in miniature painting. Thus, their mix of slightly high production quality, cheapness, and mix of good detail but with a lot of flat areas means someone like this can easily and quickly paint it with almost no skills and get an acceptable result
I’m brand new to the hobby, don’t really plan on ever playing dnd but I don’t want to ruin my across the realms minis and need to practice. Thus I bought a few of these to get better before I try on others.
I exclusively use paper minis. I love the details and they come prepainted! 😂 I use printable heroes and paper forge. They both look so good at my table.
Although I care not for Hasbro and Hasbro-adjacent stuff, perhaps one consideration for higher quality injection moulded models is that the cost to produce those injection moulds is very high - in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus the retail cost to recoup is almost an order-of-magnitude higher compared to an easier cast such as a small resin pour. For a box like Space Marines, they're produced in massive quantities because you need masses of them. But the bigger, one-off "hero" models are generally priced higher (without getting into GW's utterly inscrutable pricing) because you're only really going to buy probably _one_ of them but they still cost the same to produce the injection mould.
I think the comparison to Warhammer minis is missing a key aspect. While the price per mini is cheaper, you have to pay for the whole box. For monsters this may be an option (you won't throw a single skeleton at the party ... still, would you throw 20 of them ?). But for PCs, not really. I was playing a shield wearing Dwarf in my D&D game and I was on the market for a mini. Warhammer Age of Sigmar Start Collecting Graywater Fastness had by far the best dwarves that were available to be bought in my country at the time. But it had 12 of them, and an helicopter on top. I only needed one dwarf. I ended up not buying the warhammer box. But, in terms of plastic quality, I agree with what you've said. For the example above I ended up with a dwarf from the Wrath of Ashardalon Board Game, which quality wise is worse than the wiz kids ones. But it was more than 3 times the models compared to the warhammer box, with bigger range diversity, and almost half the price.
That pre primer is half of what makes them terrible in my opinion. I occasionally buy the prepainted ones when they're on discount, and ALWAYS end up painting over them because they just don't look good.
I'm sorry, but most kickstarter/patreon/subscription STL packs for 3d printing lack any taste in design. The need to crank out a bunch of STLs regularly must force whoever makes them to cut corners on creativity, and usually only seem like a pile of details thrown on a silhouette. But detailed doesn't mean better per se; a lot of people are actually complaining about GW making over detailed models, but STLs you find online are a mess, most of the time. How anyone can find enjoyable painting 20, or even 10, of those models is beyond me. And to be honest, as Richard Gray, says, soft details can be painted in with enough skill, without an enormous amount of effort. As for preprinted wizkids' minis are perfect for putting together a quick encounter or session for fantasy RPGs, I've always found them enjoyable to paint and I'm usually very satisfied by the result, relatively to the time and effort invested.
Fully agree, there’s WAY too much going on detail wise, and posing is ridiculous for most. Just give me something with some nice detail and clothing with a generic stance.
What annoys me the most are the highly specific models. Everyone is trying to make something completely special to distinguish themselves, resulting in models which you can barely, if at all, use.
I wish Citadel would go back to releasing generic fantasy and sci fi miniatures. It would give RPG players better options, and it would slow the pace of Warhammer releases (which happen way too often right now). Win, win!
When I first got into D&D I started collecting these majorly because they were so useful for getting stuff on the board. But then I got into warhammer and yeah, they suck. So now I am touching them all up and selling them, just so I can 3D print replacements. But in all honestly, I still love all of them. Heck I have a whole portion of my D&D collection that is painted figures from the board games.
I miss the days when Ral Partha, Grenadier and Citadel were the top names at producing fantasy minis. The metal can last assuming they were at least primed (preventing rot). Although the poses are limited due to limitations of the molding process, they simply looked cooler. I abhor Wizkids due to the reasons given at the start of the video, and they lack the quality to be considered for certain competition painting challenges, which I sometimes engage in.
I don't think the lack of detail on WizKids is a quality issue, but an unfortunate stylistic choice. Many of the minis are based on illustrations from the books, which are drawn with more or less realistic proportions (idealized proportions yes, but trying to be a realistic image of an idealized person). But realistic proportions look like crap at 1/72 or 1/54 or whatever it is these days. You need something that looks more like a caricature, because otherwise the details just turn into blobs.
I once bought an official dnd pack of kobolds and I was really excited by the legs snapped right off because they were so thin, it was a disappointment.
I live in Italy and DnD minis were pretty difficult to come by and set you back around 15+€ each. I remember looking at them coming from 40k and seeing their lack of detail and I never felt encouraged to spend money on them, even if they were preassembled and primed. I have a 3D printer for about 5yrs now and I can easily print all the minis (monsters/NPC/heroes) I want for pennies using heroforge or all of the Artisan Guild's minis that I've bought during those years
Honestly, this just looks like a scam. Warhammer minis are famously expensive and they keep getting more pricy each year, and they are still a better deal than the D&D ones on all accounts.
You drop a WizKids mini, you mini will be fine. You can’t say that for the Resin mini. I still won’t buy WizKids minis because they are a smaller scam than I prefer, but there is a benefit to their and Reaper Bones line.
it really is a shame that the official minis for the largest ttrpg in the world are so crap. what really baffles me is that assembling and priming them actually brings DOWN the quality of the minis. if they sold the mins un-assembled and un-primed, they'd be cheaper to produce and easier to paint, but as they are these pros are actually cons. also it's hilarious that they have "paint night kits," but my flgs had to throw in the possibility of winning $50 store credit to get anyone to actually want a crappy mini and 1/3 of a bottle per paint color.
and even if you buy the frameworks models, none of the connection points have pegs or aligning tabs, just flat connections, so you're either going to snap pieces off because the plastic is too stiff to move at all if its dropped or not handled like glass, or spend hours trying to pin each head and arm and extra bit. i wish they'd go through GW, but companies now are all poisoned by the "a businesses job is to make money" so they'd rather play russian roulette with an rpg than share profit with another company
They're probably targeting me... because I don't really see a problem with the minis. I def don't have the same standards as you guys do who have been in the hobby for years.
What you didn't mention is, that the Material, which is used by Nolzurs, can be much better in detail: I love Reapers Bones-Miniatures. I know, that they where crap in the first iteration, when they just tried to produce PVC-Copies of their old Metal-Sculpts, but the newer Once are so much better in Detail. On the other hand: You use Contrasty Paints for the Example-Miniature in this Video. A Paint-Phlosophie which didn't even exist, when Wizkids came up with their Minis in the first place.
core benefits of Wizkids mini's is cheap and no assembly required is a massive plus. self 3d printing is cost prohibitive and requires significantly more time commitments. If you could have the same price with the same range of miniatures all available at once then people would swap quickly. People want more detail but DnD knows it's easier to use Wizkids and target a mass audience
Wizkids Minis are also generally able to take a _serious_ amount of punishment without permanent damage. You want to give your elementary-school kid his/her own painted minis, and let 'em take a set to school to show their buddies? Wizkids minis are the thing. They'll handle being tossed into a backpack, being played with in the classroom (because it's too cold outside in to go to recess), bashed around with books and homework, and come back home with nary a problem. Contrast that with 3D printed minis, where it's common to compare resins by dropping a print from table height and seeing _how many pieces_ it shatters into. Even then, they're using freshly printed prints that are still flexible. Wait a few more weeks, and the well-reviewed "flexible" resins become _pretty brittle_.
Core concept of this video is pretty tone deaf. I can buy 2 dnd minis for $5 at a local store, I can't buy warhammer for that price. A lot dnd players also just want a visual representation instead of a neutral token, they might not even paint them, a person with that mindset wouldn't even consider getting a resin printer for this.
you need durable minis for games. Resin printed minis break way easier. I have alot of other brands and quite a few are just more fragile. As the painter/person putting mini together I know to be careful, and where to touch them. My hubby has broken a few minis picking them up wrong. I have broken stuff while gluing or painting some as well :/ I did find Dungeons and Lasers are great :D
Try Anycubic Tough Resin Ultra. It's a bit more expensive than regular resin but has the toughness and flexibility of plastic kits. My players are heavy handed, so the switch was a godsend.
Yeah, those D&D/Nolzur's minis are indestructible. You can drop them, squeeze them, bend the swords and they spring right back. I hack off the bases to mount them on square ones and I don't need to worry about the mini snapping if I torque the legs a little too far open. Detail is crap when you're looking closely as paint them, but on the table with a bunch of other minis your players/opponents are not looking as hard as you did while painting.
These new D&D minis just seem very overpriced and look way too cartoony for me just like a lot of 3d sculptors stuff. I really wish people would do more realistic sculpts as these cartoony ones tend to be very cheap to design also I really want to see minis in ABS. You can get very similar detail if not the exact same from ABS these days that you can with PS but ABS is way more durable. Also coming from background where I have to know about plastic mold production. modern GW minis arent actually very good, the older PS they used was much more durable than the stuff that have now and their modern designs are made to fail with how bad their connection points are with the biggest offenders here being a lot of ghosthaunt in AOS and void dragon in 40k. The detail is also not as impressive when you look close enough between really stupid design choices and weird overhangs that make painting much harder.
From my experience dnd minis are pretty cheap comparatively. Also detail isn't important to me because minis are supposed to be seen from a few feet away.
I feel like you've overlooked some of the worst and most heinous manipulations from the Wizkids Minis. They're specifically marketed to beginners as being cheap and easy to paint. HOWEVER, THIS IS A HOBBY TRAP: 1. There are no *real* samples of what a paintjob looks like - all samples of their paintjobs are *colored renders* 2. These Colored Renders have more detail than the sculpts themselves - they effectively not just lie about how you can get paint on them but about how the sculpt itself will look - because the minis are made in PVC plastic, all crisp detail is lost on them. 3. The fact these are in the cheapest board game PVC plastic not only ruins detail, it's also *incredibly* hydrophobic (put a pin on that) - it's harder for primer to adhere and it's harder for paint to adhere even after primer is on them. 4. The Pre-priming on them is *quite literally* applied incorrectly - people have noticed heavy blobbing in recesses and absolute detail loss that can only be discovered after stripping. A lot of painters theorize this is because they are not airbrushing primer on, they are *dipping* the minis in primer and letting them dry, which lets the material bunch up and turn hydrophobic instead of gaining "teeth". What you end up with, is people buying these (often in overexcited bulk, since they're so cheap) and a starter set of paints, trying to paint, seeing the mini reject their paint, not having any reference material to compare their paintjob to that isn't a *painted goddamn render done by a computer artist*, and then just absolute ruination of their hope for painting more. Most of these beginners burn out in frustration; some are happy with any kind of painted mini and keep going; a rare few ask for help, and move on to better sculpts and brands. THAT is the tragedy of these - they *would* be a way to introduce new painters into the hobby, but Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro would rather filter a majority of hobbyists out by *draining them of money, time, and confidence* with this plastic trash than to foster new members.
Because they are cheap, and can pump them out fast stocking shelves. However I'll be honest they do SUCK to paint. I end up having to green stuff them, or modify them in some ways with plastic parts, carve into to bring detail back... I have avoided these for years now. And moved to many other mini brands, and 3d printing. They are a nice entry..but whoever sticks with just those has never painted anything else, once they do.. 5 bucks says they won't return it's just crap, heck you can even get better minis from temu... Simply put, look up a lot of different games frostgrave, kings of war, mantic minis, and just soooooo much more, stop painting crap :P
yeah i use a mix of skinny minis for quick nd easy and age of sigmar models for when i really care. I also have a number of steamforged games models cause the official models for dnd are just awful
"Great detail that's fun to paint" is just half the equation. With Warhammer minis, what you're actually buying, is a model kit. A very, very poorly designed model kit - that is not fun to assemble. They often take as long to assemble as they do to paint (and I am not talking about rushed speedpainting). Furthermore, model kits that fail to represent objects (with known dimensions, thanks to the overabundance of irrelevant lore) in chosen scale (whatever scale "Citadel miniatures" are in), can't be considered "high quality". The "heroic scale" of Warhammer is far outside of what other "heroic scale" manufacturers do - even ones that make alternative Warhammer models. With 3d printing (and living in a small apartment), I simply buy from printing services. In the end, it takes far less effort to "assemble" a 3d printed model than it does a bad model kit, like those from Games Workshop. Not all plastic kits are bad, of course. Literally every other manufacturer I know does it "better".
We run games in a homebrew setting inspired by all sorts - but mainly I wanted to have a clear visual definition between Elves, Drow and Shadar-Kai. Plus purple is just fun! And It's not uncommon to see unofficial D&D art of drow with purple skin, which is likely very inspired by WoW - I think it makes for a more striking visual.
Human skin is some combination of orange, brown, rose, and purple. Pick two and you'll find some ethnic background's skin tone on that line. Drow, if I recall correctly, are canonically combinations of pale blue, dark purple, ash grey, and obsidian black tones. A dusky purple is a very common choice
For me I find wizkids but especially Reaper are great for Monsters. Reaper can let you get a massive monster for less than 20$ which is really nice for a DM. I do agree that Wizkid's hero line is pretty lacking, but a lot of my players just got Hero Forge minis for themselves as the campaign progressed.
Why pay a small fortune for a shitty DND mini when you could just buy a higher quality 3D print for a fraction of the price. The age of miniature companies is coming to a close as the consumers now have the means to take it into their own hands with 3D printing.
As a dnd player, minis are a luxury. Likely to just use print outs cut to a circle or coins or m&ms. things on a table are a means to an end for the game. As an outsider, wargammers are into painting models, not so much playing games with them. It really looks like showing up to game is just a chance to show off models and paint jobs for wargammers So yeah for ttrpg, lower quality is acceptable as they’re just placeholders for tactical rules
I'd agree with your take if half the armies in the serious tournaments weren't done up to parade ready standards. Alot of "wargammers" actually hate painting and tend to source it out or just slap up a bare min paint job to get it "battle ready" the majority of the people who are taking time to paint with 8 different colors on a single mini are usally the people doing commissions or end up playing a game 1-2 times a year with said miniatures. Just what I've tend to realize running a GW exclusive store. The overwhelming majority of people who come to sit and paint all afternoon usally are never the same people setting up an army at a table to play a game.
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I have a set of Reaper Bones from the first kickstarter that I use for bulk minis. Floppy weapons and mold lines all over, so they're not the best for heroes or important enemies/NPCs.
I've never gotten my hands on Reaper minis but from my understanding they're pretty similar to Wizkid's? Have you painted many of them up?
For hordes of Undead I use the models from Cursed City, Orcs and Goblins are more GW minis, terrain and NPCs are from Archon Studios, and PCs tend to be from either brand.
I've used bits from Reaper minis to customize others. Their metal ones have good detail but their plastic ones have softer details and are weird to work with because of the plastic they are made from.
@@Painted4Combat A few. They're floppier than heroclix or mage knight. I believe the newer D&D unpainted minis are a similar material. It resists primer but you can paint them unprimed somehow.
I exclusively use paper minis from companies like printable heroes or paper forge. ❤
My biggest problem with these D&D minis are that they're lower detail then Warhammer minis, a Table Top War Game. In Warhammer, where games have each player bringing 50+ minis, where there are only supposed to be one or two stand out center piece models, the average infantry men, just a part of a massive blob, has higher detail than D&D minis, where each mini is basically the center piece for each player. In a game that's essentially made up of entirely center piece models, you'd think D&D would have Warhammer beat.
Also how expensive to you have to be to make WARHAMMER look like a cheap by comparison.
@@tf2warhammerdude the primary issue is honestly the scale. D&D minis are tiny, even compared to Warhammer. I think they should be twice the size, then they’d actually be able to work in a lot of detail
Those Frameworks minis are even more expensive than GW.
Probably the issue is also that the miniatures are badly pre-primed, with thick paint covering most of the thinner details. Also stripping them apparently is almost impossible without ruining the figure
I've stripped them before - it's viable but tedious. Simple Green or LA's totally awesome works well enough
The biggest thing being missed as a possible reason is also the most likely: hasbro knows what they have with the DnD brand so they don't worry about quality or price when putting out these things. They really have no incentive to be better than their competitors because they aren't even actually competing. People who go to great lengths to find the best stuff online wouldn't want their minis anyway, and people who just want a quick cheap monster for their table won't be looking beyond the shelves of their local store or maybe Amazon.
Wizkid minis are the reason I got into 3d printing. I wanted minis specifically because I liked painting them and wanted to make my own characters for D&D. I did not enjoy the very limited selection nor the quality of them, so I decided to get a printer.. Turns out I *really* like painting and have gone on to display painting so getting a printer really worked out in my favour :)
100% this. I've been modeling and painting since I was very young, and the fact that RPG minis are sort of _your_ character - it's a character that's meant to be long-lived, lends itself to having a paint job that is more 'heroic' instead of merely trying to get an entire army on the table quickly.
That said, after 3D printing (with tightly temp-controlled and well-calibrated resins), it's been interesting to see how the "flexible" resins become _very_ brittle after a few months, and dropping a mini just shatters it. Wizkid minis don't do that.
Along with this, I _really don't care_ about the things that make a "mini" paint: Mini paints provide lore-accurate colors used for an _army_ that remain consistent from year to year, and have complementary shades to make painting those lore-specific color schemes faster. I don't care about 'skill in a bottle' to get an _entire army_ on the table faster.
"Mini paints" seem geared _heavily_ towards putting color-coordinated armies on the table quickly, and you _pay_ for that specialization.
@@pariahzero I've always used a semi-brittle resin so that I can get the fine details with an older model printer, so I'm already going in with the understanding that the models will be brittle.
Paints depend on the brand for mini paints. If you look at Kimera paints for example, these paints are marketed towards mini painters specifically. The pigments are ground finer than normal artist grade paints... at least in the higher quality brands. If you're using Citadel paints, get yourself away from those. Look into Pro-Acryl for a better paint (it's not everyone's fave brand, but I like them).
Many mini-paints are not single pigment which ruins colour mixing. I do occasionally dip into Citadel paints when I really don't feel like mixing a specific shade, or dip into the contrast paints for a specific effect I'm going for, but those aren't my daily drivers by any means.
@@piptarou I'm not convinced about being "finer ground". If you're talking about the 'craft' paints in the artist section at Walmart, sure. If you're talking the acrylics at a fine art store, it's a different matter entirely.
I've bought (sampled?) Pro-acryl, Vallejo, and a few others to try them out.
They're fine - but they are _much_ more expensive for their performance than the airbrush paints I've used for over a decade.
@@pariahzero So, from the perspective of a semi-professional painter (done commissions and one a couple painting competitions) there is a not insignificant difference between craft paints and mini paints. If you don't really care about the quality of the paint nor things like coverage, flow etc. sure, they are fine. But the overall quality of mini paints, at least to me, is so significant that I couldn't go back to cheap craft paints. If you just want to get minis on the table though, craft paints will get the job done. I just find them incredibly frustrating to use
@@raeishimura I can understand the assumption I'm using craft paints. That is not the case, however.
I've been painting things _other_ than minis using professional paints for... 15-ish years now. These paints have pigments every bit as fine (or finer) than the mini paint brands.
As you'd expect, there are specialized mediums (and other addins) to modify the paint to obtain properties you desire.
I've certainly _tried_ a few mini paint brands. They're fine. Since I already have the professional paint on my shelves, I started using it, and it works as well or better than the mini paints. And it costs less.
The big tradeoff (which I didn't _quite_ say in the first comment): You _absolutely_ have to mix your colors.
Frostgrave and Oathmark are also good, inexpensive options for D&D characters. They are not as big as GW's models, but they scale fine against the Wizkids models, and for the price of a Space Marine 10 man unit, I got myself a box of 20 soldiers and another box of 8 wizards from Fostgrave. And they are also very customizable.
Victrix vikings or saxons, Wargames Atlantic also has great minis (especially the spiders). Frostgrave Wizards 1 and 2 are the best kits to give to new mini painters, so many hands, so many heads.
If you want quick, but don't want to lose the detail, I have found that overall the newer metal casts, plastic casts and resin casts from Reaper miniatures are not only superior sculpts to Wizkids but are easily fixable and cleaned up with a simple nail file, mould line remover, and/or flat cutters, if you even need to in the first place as often times they come without issues and only need their mould lines flattened like any other plastic miniature, but don't require all the gluing which I really like sometimes.
These miniature are always on sale online pretty much everywhere except Amazon generally, for good prices, like 3-6 usd a figure depending on material. I love painting these ones. So if someone happens to see this post and is not happy with the WizKid models, try Reaper models. Do not buy the white ones though those are the lowest quality and often are bent unless you really really want it and can't find it in one of the other materials they offer, I guess you can use hot water to kind of fix it, but I haven't had that work for me as well as people claim.
And yes there's 3d printing yada yada yada like you mentioned in your video, and I know people are gonna bring it up in comments, but I've personally developed an allergy to the resin despite taking all precautions and can no longer 3-D print, and I'm not paying the hyper inflated prices that other people are charging for 3-D prints with cheap fragile resin that we all know cost way less than even the WizKid models in the first place.
As a result, Reaper has kind of been a good in between for me at the moment while I work a situation out since, I got a friend who can 3-D print, so in the future I'll be able to do that but right now these are the guys giving me some nice painting sculpts besides plastic kits from GW and yeah those are great too. Also might I mention, while not as good, Osprey Games has miniature lines for both Frostgrave and Stargrave that are kind of what you're describing. They cost roughly around $25-$35 USD for a box of 20 customizable miniatures with tons of extra bits, great for bashing, they are 28mm but they fit in with the whole 25 to 32 mm if you're not super picky, especially as nonplayer characters.
A final option for plastic miniature kits, is Wargames Atlantic. They are very similar to the Frostgrave line, except way more options, and have up to 24 in the boxes. They also have a focus on some historical theming with these boxes offering very specific types of era accurate soldiers that would be recognizable to any historian from all over history past and present. Along with that, they also carry a lot of peasants and regular people as models which you know are also great for NPC's. Lots of great stuff in their lineup.
I’d also recommend Wargames Atlantic kits, even if they don’t exactly match the traditional DnD aesthetic.
They have a large range of kits, including some fantasy kits like Halfing warriors and skeletons, but also historical kits for stuff like Roman Legionaries, Crusader style knights, Conquistadors, and more modern stuff from both World Wars. They also have a ton of Sci-Fi stuff.
Its a slightly different look, but 24-30 models for 35USD is a good price. Each kit comes with like 2-3 heads, 2-3 sets of arms, and 2-3 sets of extra bits per body.
I think this is due to a handful of factors:
1. Durability as another commenter pointed out, wargaming and display miniatures are normally only handled by the owner while rpg miniatures are likely handled by the players as well.
2. ttrpg players don't paint. Most any ttrpg players who paint their miniatures almost always also wargame or have a background in wargaming. Unpainted miniatures are a common sight at d&d tables, so miniatures targeted at a d&d audience arent gonna held to the same standard.
3. Cost. Not only does wizards of the coast and hasbro want to maximize cash, d&d players spend much less money than wargaming players, and d&d miniatures are less resusable than a wargaming army being played with regularly since aside from PCs theyre just for one encounter (this is also a big factor in my most ttrpg players dont paint their miniatures in my guess).
Really cool video topic, ive painted a few wizkids miniatures myself and they are generally a bit disappointing, i think the sweet spot is in touching up the nicer looking prepainted ones. I have just about every type of material miniatures can be made of in my rpg miniature collection and ive found my favorites are single piece metal miniatures done by indie scuptors (Heekin Pewter is one of my favorite lines) or by Reaper miniatures. They can be detailed at an equal level as multipart plastics with crisp edges but are less prep work and have a sadisfying weight, all while being pretty affordable (often like $10 a model), just not a great option for huge miniatures which is where stuff like wizkids $20 dragons really shine imo. Hopefully this comment isnt too long lol just a neat topic which got me thinking
I have a large assortment of the wizkids pre-primed minis. I typically speed paint a couple on days that I’ve spent my sessions just assembling or priming other minis. I find them to be an enjoyable cap to a painting session that otherwise wouldn’t have produced a complete mini. They’re really great to fill out my collection for npcs and monsters that otherwise aren’t on the table that long. I have a few humanoids from it that ended up looking pretty great for a PC too, they’re not all mediocre.
For sure! As you say, I can see them being great for times where you don't expect to use characters/creatures on the table for long; and its awesome to hear you've found some that are good enough to get used for PC's.
As a dnd player, minis are a luxury. Likely to just use print outs cut to a circle or coins or m&ms. things on a table are a means to an end for the game.
As an outsider, wargammers are into painting models, not so much playing games with them. It really looks like showing up to game is just a chance to show off models and paint jobs for wargammers
So yeah for ttrpg, lower quality is acceptable as they’re just placeholders for tactical rules
I will correct you on that if I may. *Some* Wargamers are into painting models. The wargaming hobby is basically split into three little subhobbies. There's the Collecting, the Painting and the Playing, where people sit on each of those can vary WILDLY between each person.
Some may enjoy the collecting, the act of buying, building and converting a model and then leaving it unpainted and unplayed.
Some, as you've pointed out, just enjoy the act of painting, to them they're focused on getting the best possible painted mini they can achieve and will spend DAYS on a single miniature and regular enter painting contests or post their painted minis online.
Then there's the playing side, these people don't care for the painting and assembling, viewing it as a requirement and will do the absolute basics they can to get an army 'tabletop ready' (or Painted for Combat), they just want to build army lists and enjoy the act of playing the game and engaging with the rules and will quite gladly play with unpainted minis in casual games HOWEVER all major tournaments have a 'painting requirement' or you lose points which can cost you the game and thus your chance to win, hence the 'tabletop standard' level of paint.
Now not everyone is going to be all one thing (some are but most aren't), Some are going to enjoy the act of building, converting and painting but not playing, some might enjoy the act of painting and playing but find building a hastle, some may dabble a bit on all three. Your view of Wargamers is pretty damn narrow if I'm honest but I get it as your someone looking from the outside in.
Also it depends *which* Wargame you're talking about, Skirmish games will often have players focusing more on the converting and painting side because you only have 6-10 models at most and thus each individual needs to stand out more. If you're painting for something like 40k or One Page Rules, which require sizeable armies, painting each individual squad member to a stupidly high standard isn't really a clever idea because sometimes you'll be painting 100+ miniatures for an army and spending 30 hours on each guy is...well it's just not sensible. So you'll 'batch paint' the rank and file chaff units and focus more on the special characters.
As a DM, who is into mini painting, I agree that minis on a TTRPG is a luxury. However although it is time consuming to paint them and expensive even if you print the ( due to having a lot of different stuff to find buy and print), the experience of having a bunch of adults do like kids when I open the box is priceless.
Wizkids minis are great for what they are. They are cheap (around $6 for 2 models for standard sized creatures), very very difficult to damage due to the softer plastic they are made from, very easy to kitbash due to that softer plastic being easy to cut and glue. Some sculpts are pretty plain like the one you showed here but many are much more detailed and interesting. Is there a problem with bent weapons? Absolutely and its a bit annoying, but you can fix them quickly with hot water.
I like that you compare them pricewise to 3d printing with one breath saying they aren't cheap, but then with the next say that "not everyone has the space to 3d print" when talking about detail and usability. So which is it? 3d printing files are generally $5 per model and yes you can print as many as you want but again that has a big upfront cost in both time, money, and space. Resin is also much more fragile than the plastic used by wizkids and reaper. Even the super expensive, super flexible resin is, and if you don't add harder resin to the mix with super flexible resin they will print with muddier details in my experience. The cool thing about 3d printing is that there are a bunch of free models on places like thingiverse so you can get some savings there( and there is this one guy who is making models of every monster in dnd and making them free, so he's a hero).
The frameworks minis I agree are too pricey but they are mostly focused around bosses or player characters not just regular mooks, so when you compare them to single mini Warhammer boxes with named Captains/bosses they cost relatively the same and even cheaper in some cases.
I cannot comment on Arkon too much as I have been unaware of them till just now. But based on what you've shown they are sprue kits which means that yes they will likely be more detailed but will be much more expensive but also much more fragile. You say you spent $700 dollars on those boxes which aint cheap. You say youll get 700 minis out of it which is impressive, if true (Again I'm unfamiliar with what each of those boxes contain).
Someone in the comments mentioned Frostgrave and Oathmark and those look pretty cool. I might try looking into them.
Mostly what I paint is wizkids and printed minis and in my experience they are generally less detailed but have more than plenty of them to be cool and still be painted to a high standard if you want. Yes the require fixing and sanding but so do 3d prints and even sprue models. I enjoy painting both. Reaper is great too but their models are generally bigger but more flexible.
I primarily 3D print my minis currently but back when i first started, i bought a good handful of minis like the Wizkids and Reaper. For me it was easy, convenient and cheap enough.
Metal is the way. $10 per space marine is a rip off.
I like them because they are cheap enough to fill up the monster box
If I played D&D, I’d use Citidel/Age of Sigmar minis for stuff.
Yes, they are expensive a fuck. But they look fucking awesome.
But they don't have the LOTR party types and that's what D&D really needs. One mini per player, a big creature (any one) for the big bad, and a few smaller ones for their guards.
It's funny cause 5 or 6 years ago the rank and file non-hero citadel miniatures were cheaper than buying the same amount of models that were made by licensed D&D companies.
The human scale WIzkids minis are awful to paint, but the larger monster minis are passable... on the off chance you can find the monsters you want actually in stock...
Are the Frameworks really more expensive than a games workshop, single spru hero figure?
I wouldn't actually call wizkids minis easy to paint in a lot of cases, a lot of them have super awkward to get to spots and... I dunno I just don't find them fun to paint. The faces always look like blank masks like you can't put any detail in them. Creatures and whatnot are fine usually though, just humanoids suck.
I suppose the new D&D models it is an economy of scale as HIPs moulds are expensive and the more detailed the more expensive (£200,000 for the machine then for the die to produce the miniature so if your going good quality steel about £25,000 to £50,000, then if the parts are clipped most likely a person has to do that as warhammer kits are just pushed out into boxes) it’s why individual models cost more than a squad as you will buy less of them. (I know gw does overcharge massively but that’s another topic.)
Wiz kids models are pvc it’s a different material requiring different moulds and machines that are not as expensive so they can make them fast and cheap (heroquest the new game are this as are some of Mantics old kits). Cheaper to make and easier to repair the moulds so it can be sold cheaper.
I think it's tragic that American and European miniatures are so primitive compared to what the industry is actually capable of that GW's miniatures are considered high quality. Calling them 20 years behind the times in quality is an understatement given how many where around even back then and where still behind the curb, yet the industry is content with this state of affairs.
Do you have any good examples of non-American or European fantasy minis?
I don't see the point in the cheaper dnd blisters when I can get plastic frostgrave and oathmark sprue-kits for cheaper per mini
I think these are very much not directed at people who paint at your level, or even anywhere near it. They seem to be intended for people who are in DnD for the RPG and are not, or are very minorly interested in miniature painting. Thus, their mix of slightly high production quality, cheapness, and mix of good detail but with a lot of flat areas means someone like this can easily and quickly paint it with almost no skills and get an acceptable result
I’m brand new to the hobby, don’t really plan on ever playing dnd but I don’t want to ruin my across the realms minis and need to practice. Thus I bought a few of these to get better before I try on others.
I exclusively use paper minis. I love the details and they come prepainted! 😂
I use printable heroes and paper forge. They both look so good at my table.
This! I Should have mentioned this, my group used to do this too and its a fun and simple way to get detailed art on the table.
Although I care not for Hasbro and Hasbro-adjacent stuff, perhaps one consideration for higher quality injection moulded models is that the cost to produce those injection moulds is very high - in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus the retail cost to recoup is almost an order-of-magnitude higher compared to an easier cast such as a small resin pour. For a box like Space Marines, they're produced in massive quantities because you need masses of them. But the bigger, one-off "hero" models are generally priced higher (without getting into GW's utterly inscrutable pricing) because you're only really going to buy probably _one_ of them but they still cost the same to produce the injection mould.
I think the comparison to Warhammer minis is missing a key aspect. While the price per mini is cheaper, you have to pay for the whole box. For monsters this may be an option (you won't throw a single skeleton at the party ... still, would you throw 20 of them ?). But for PCs, not really. I was playing a shield wearing Dwarf in my D&D game and I was on the market for a mini. Warhammer Age of Sigmar Start Collecting Graywater Fastness had by far the best dwarves that were available to be bought in my country at the time. But it had 12 of them, and an helicopter on top. I only needed one dwarf. I ended up not buying the warhammer box.
But, in terms of plastic quality, I agree with what you've said. For the example above I ended up with a dwarf from the Wrath of Ashardalon Board Game, which quality wise is worse than the wiz kids ones. But it was more than 3 times the models compared to the warhammer box, with bigger range diversity, and almost half the price.
That pre primer is half of what makes them terrible in my opinion. I occasionally buy the prepainted ones when they're on discount, and ALWAYS end up painting over them because they just don't look good.
I'm sorry, but most kickstarter/patreon/subscription STL packs for 3d printing lack any taste in design. The need to crank out a bunch of STLs regularly must force whoever makes them to cut corners on creativity, and usually only seem like a pile of details thrown on a silhouette. But detailed doesn't mean better per se; a lot of people are actually complaining about GW making over detailed models, but STLs you find online are a mess, most of the time. How anyone can find enjoyable painting 20, or even 10, of those models is beyond me. And to be honest, as Richard Gray, says, soft details can be painted in with enough skill, without an enormous amount of effort. As for preprinted wizkids' minis are perfect for putting together a quick encounter or session for fantasy RPGs, I've always found them enjoyable to paint and I'm usually very satisfied by the result, relatively to the time and effort invested.
This. I find so many stls over designed schlock
Fully agree, there’s WAY too much going on detail wise, and posing is ridiculous for most. Just give me something with some nice detail and clothing with a generic stance.
What annoys me the most are the highly specific models. Everyone is trying to make something completely special to distinguish themselves, resulting in models which you can barely, if at all, use.
@@davidburns9766Posing is ridiculous? Mate have you SEEN the posing on anything GW released in the last like 5 years or so?
Yes, gw does ridiculous poses. So do a lot of stl designers on kickstarter. What was your point?@@Shrouded_reaper
I wish Citadel would go back to releasing generic fantasy and sci fi miniatures. It would give RPG players better options, and it would slow the pace of Warhammer releases (which happen way too often right now). Win, win!
For humanoids/characters check out the Frostgrave range. Really great sprues with lots of options for a reasonable price.
Wil have to check them out!
The biggest red flag is that they never show you actual models on the packages or adverts only rendered 3d models
When I first got into D&D I started collecting these majorly because they were so useful for getting stuff on the board. But then I got into warhammer and yeah, they suck. So now I am touching them all up and selling them, just so I can 3D print replacements. But in all honestly, I still love all of them. Heck I have a whole portion of my D&D collection that is painted figures from the board games.
Maybe its cause my eyesight is bad, but I want to play in 1:48 scale. Plus there's a huge dollhouse/diorama market to take advantage of for terrain.
Interesting idea - maps for D&D might get a bit large though 😄
You can buy from dungeons and lasers. They are cheap and look so good
I miss the days when Ral Partha, Grenadier and Citadel were the top names at producing fantasy minis. The metal can last assuming they were at least primed (preventing rot). Although the poses are limited due to limitations of the molding process, they simply looked cooler. I abhor Wizkids due to the reasons given at the start of the video, and they lack the quality to be considered for certain competition painting challenges, which I sometimes engage in.
I don't think the lack of detail on WizKids is a quality issue, but an unfortunate stylistic choice. Many of the minis are based on illustrations from the books, which are drawn with more or less realistic proportions (idealized proportions yes, but trying to be a realistic image of an idealized person). But realistic proportions look like crap at 1/72 or 1/54 or whatever it is these days. You need something that looks more like a caricature, because otherwise the details just turn into blobs.
I once bought an official dnd pack of kobolds and I was really excited by the legs snapped right off because they were so thin, it was a disappointment.
I live in Italy and DnD minis were pretty difficult to come by and set you back around 15+€ each. I remember looking at them coming from 40k and seeing their lack of detail and I never felt encouraged to spend money on them, even if they were preassembled and primed. I have a 3D printer for about 5yrs now and I can easily print all the minis (monsters/NPC/heroes) I want for pennies using heroforge or all of the Artisan Guild's minis that I've bought during those years
Just to say if you used EBay them you can buy job-lots from China. For about 15e you would get a collection of them.
Honestly, this just looks like a scam. Warhammer minis are famously expensive and they keep getting more pricy each year, and they are still a better deal than the D&D ones on all accounts.
You drop a WizKids mini, you mini will be fine. You can’t say that for the Resin mini.
I still won’t buy WizKids minis because they are a smaller scam than I prefer, but there is a benefit to their and Reaper Bones line.
it really is a shame that the official minis for the largest ttrpg in the world are so crap. what really baffles me is that assembling and priming them actually brings DOWN the quality of the minis. if they sold the mins un-assembled and un-primed, they'd be cheaper to produce and easier to paint, but as they are these pros are actually cons. also it's hilarious that they have "paint night kits," but my flgs had to throw in the possibility of winning $50 store credit to get anyone to actually want a crappy mini and 1/3 of a bottle per paint color.
and even if you buy the frameworks models, none of the connection points have pegs or aligning tabs, just flat connections, so you're either going to snap pieces off because the plastic is too stiff to move at all if its dropped or not handled like glass, or spend hours trying to pin each head and arm and extra bit. i wish they'd go through GW, but companies now are all poisoned by the "a businesses job is to make money" so they'd rather play russian roulette with an rpg than share profit with another company
They're probably targeting me... because I don't really see a problem with the minis. I def don't have the same standards as you guys do who have been in the hobby for years.
And then lets talk about the comparative value of historical minis.
When you're hoping something won't be more expensive than warhammer it must be overprived!
What you didn't mention is, that the Material, which is used by Nolzurs, can be much better in detail: I love Reapers Bones-Miniatures. I know, that they where crap in the first iteration, when they just tried to produce PVC-Copies of their old Metal-Sculpts, but the newer Once are so much better in Detail.
On the other hand: You use Contrasty Paints for the Example-Miniature in this Video. A Paint-Phlosophie which didn't even exist, when Wizkids came up with their Minis in the first place.
For characters, Frostgrave, oathmark, or wargames Atlantic sprues (among others) are a great bargain.
core benefits of Wizkids mini's is cheap and no assembly required is a massive plus. self 3d printing is cost prohibitive and requires significantly more time commitments. If you could have the same price with the same range of miniatures all available at once then people would swap quickly. People want more detail but DnD knows it's easier to use Wizkids and target a mass audience
Wizkids Minis are also generally able to take a _serious_ amount of punishment without permanent damage. You want to give your elementary-school kid his/her own painted minis, and let 'em take a set to school to show their buddies? Wizkids minis are the thing.
They'll handle being tossed into a backpack, being played with in the classroom (because it's too cold outside in to go to recess), bashed around with books and homework, and come back home with nary a problem.
Contrast that with 3D printed minis, where it's common to compare resins by dropping a print from table height and seeing _how many pieces_ it shatters into. Even then, they're using freshly printed prints that are still flexible. Wait a few more weeks, and the well-reviewed "flexible" resins become _pretty brittle_.
Core concept of this video is pretty tone deaf. I can buy 2 dnd minis for $5 at a local store, I can't buy warhammer for that price. A lot dnd players also just want a visual representation instead of a neutral token, they might not even paint them, a person with that mindset wouldn't even consider getting a resin printer for this.
you need durable minis for games. Resin printed minis break way easier. I have alot of other brands and quite a few are just more fragile. As the painter/person putting mini together I know to be careful, and where to touch them. My hubby has broken a few minis picking them up wrong. I have broken stuff while gluing or painting some as well :/ I did find Dungeons and Lasers are great :D
Try Anycubic Tough Resin Ultra. It's a bit more expensive than regular resin but has the toughness and flexibility of plastic kits. My players are heavy handed, so the switch was a godsend.
@@pazuzu_666 good to know thank you :)
@@pazuzu_666 Ill have to try that one. I use a sarayatech mix and while its more durable they still break pretty easy.
Yeah, those D&D/Nolzur's minis are indestructible. You can drop them, squeeze them, bend the swords and they spring right back. I hack off the bases to mount them on square ones and I don't need to worry about the mini snapping if I torque the legs a little too far open.
Detail is crap when you're looking closely as paint them, but on the table with a bunch of other minis your players/opponents are not looking as hard as you did while painting.
Great video
Any reason you haven't mentioned metal minis?
I just don't have any experience with them; but I'm hearing that a lot of people like Reapers newer metal minis so might have to check them out!
These new D&D minis just seem very overpriced and look way too cartoony for me just like a lot of 3d sculptors stuff. I really wish people would do more realistic sculpts as these cartoony ones tend to be very cheap to design also I really want to see minis in ABS. You can get very similar detail if not the exact same from ABS these days that you can with PS but ABS is way more durable.
Also coming from background where I have to know about plastic mold production. modern GW minis arent actually very good, the older PS they used was much more durable than the stuff that have now and their modern designs are made to fail with how bad their connection points are with the biggest offenders here being a lot of ghosthaunt in AOS and void dragon in 40k. The detail is also not as impressive when you look close enough between really stupid design choices and weird overhangs that make painting much harder.
From my experience dnd minis are pretty cheap comparatively. Also detail isn't important to me because minis are supposed to be seen from a few feet away.
The framework sets are 25euro oftzn and the euro is stronger than usd atm
I feel like you've overlooked some of the worst and most heinous manipulations from the Wizkids Minis. They're specifically marketed to beginners as being cheap and easy to paint. HOWEVER, THIS IS A HOBBY TRAP:
1. There are no *real* samples of what a paintjob looks like - all samples of their paintjobs are *colored renders*
2. These Colored Renders have more detail than the sculpts themselves - they effectively not just lie about how you can get paint on them but about how the sculpt itself will look - because the minis are made in PVC plastic, all crisp detail is lost on them.
3. The fact these are in the cheapest board game PVC plastic not only ruins detail, it's also *incredibly* hydrophobic (put a pin on that) - it's harder for primer to adhere and it's harder for paint to adhere even after primer is on them.
4. The Pre-priming on them is *quite literally* applied incorrectly - people have noticed heavy blobbing in recesses and absolute detail loss that can only be discovered after stripping. A lot of painters theorize this is because they are not airbrushing primer on, they are *dipping* the minis in primer and letting them dry, which lets the material bunch up and turn hydrophobic instead of gaining "teeth".
What you end up with, is people buying these (often in overexcited bulk, since they're so cheap) and a starter set of paints, trying to paint, seeing the mini reject their paint, not having any reference material to compare their paintjob to that isn't a *painted goddamn render done by a computer artist*, and then just absolute ruination of their hope for painting more. Most of these beginners burn out in frustration; some are happy with any kind of painted mini and keep going; a rare few ask for help, and move on to better sculpts and brands.
THAT is the tragedy of these - they *would* be a way to introduce new painters into the hobby, but Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro would rather filter a majority of hobbyists out by *draining them of money, time, and confidence* with this plastic trash than to foster new members.
Because they are cheap, and can pump them out fast stocking shelves. However I'll be honest they do SUCK to paint. I end up having to green stuff them, or modify them in some ways with plastic parts, carve into to bring detail back...
I have avoided these for years now. And moved to many other mini brands, and 3d printing.
They are a nice entry..but whoever sticks with just those has never painted anything else, once they do.. 5 bucks says they won't return it's just crap, heck you can even get better minis from temu...
Simply put, look up a lot of different games frostgrave, kings of war, mantic minis, and just soooooo much more, stop painting crap :P
yeah i use a mix of skinny minis for quick nd easy and age of sigmar models for when i really care. I also have a number of steamforged games models cause the official models for dnd are just awful
"Great detail that's fun to paint" is just half the equation.
With Warhammer minis, what you're actually buying, is a model kit. A very, very poorly designed model kit - that is not fun to assemble.
They often take as long to assemble as they do to paint (and I am not talking about rushed speedpainting).
Furthermore, model kits that fail to represent objects (with known dimensions, thanks to the overabundance of irrelevant lore) in chosen scale (whatever scale "Citadel miniatures" are in), can't be considered "high quality". The "heroic scale" of Warhammer is far outside of what other "heroic scale" manufacturers do - even ones that make alternative Warhammer models.
With 3d printing (and living in a small apartment), I simply buy from printing services. In the end, it takes far less effort to "assemble" a 3d printed model than it does a bad model kit, like those from Games Workshop.
Not all plastic kits are bad, of course. Literally every other manufacturer I know does it "better".
Genuinely didn't know thier were D&D minis at all before I stumbled on this video ngl
Why purple skin for a drow? Was this world of warcraft influenced?
We run games in a homebrew setting inspired by all sorts - but mainly I wanted to have a clear visual definition between Elves, Drow and Shadar-Kai.
Plus purple is just fun! And It's not uncommon to see unofficial D&D art of drow with purple skin, which is likely very inspired by WoW - I think it makes for a more striking visual.
That and the fact that when we started our first campaign one of the players picked a Drow and designed them with purple skin, so it kinda stuck.
Human skin is some combination of orange, brown, rose, and purple. Pick two and you'll find some ethnic background's skin tone on that line. Drow, if I recall correctly, are canonically combinations of pale blue, dark purple, ash grey, and obsidian black tones. A dusky purple is a very common choice
For me I find wizkids but especially Reaper are great for Monsters. Reaper can let you get a massive monster for less than 20$ which is really nice for a DM. I do agree that Wizkid's hero line is pretty lacking, but a lot of my players just got Hero Forge minis for themselves as the campaign progressed.
Why pay a small fortune for a shitty DND mini when you could just buy a higher quality 3D print for a fraction of the price. The age of miniature companies is coming to a close as the consumers now have the means to take it into their own hands with 3D printing.
The fact the the first minis game to crash into mainstream popularity has some of the single most dogshit products imaginable.
Building is my least favorite part of the hobby. Really, I actually hate building.
I hate everything about 3D printing.
My favourite part is when everything is done and the mini is primed.
As a dnd player, minis are a luxury. Likely to just use print outs cut to a circle or coins or m&ms. things on a table are a means to an end for the game.
As an outsider, wargammers are into painting models, not so much playing games with them. It really looks like showing up to game is just a chance to show off models and paint jobs for wargammers
So yeah for ttrpg, lower quality is acceptable as they’re just placeholders for tactical rules
I'd agree with your take if half the armies in the serious tournaments weren't done up to parade ready standards. Alot of "wargammers" actually hate painting and tend to source it out or just slap up a bare min paint job to get it "battle ready" the majority of the people who are taking time to paint with 8 different colors on a single mini are usally the people doing commissions or end up playing a game 1-2 times a year with said miniatures. Just what I've tend to realize running a GW exclusive store. The overwhelming majority of people who come to sit and paint all afternoon usally are never the same people setting up an army at a table to play a game.
@@casperthelegend1458 Can confirm, spent a month painting a beautiful vampiric undead army I 3d printed, haven't played a single game with them yet.