Electric Tractor Update, April 2023 (International 300 Conversion)
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2023
- Thoughts on converting an old tractor to electric.
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Right now, I'm thinking the best approach for the tractor is to use a 72V system. That would provide fairly good power on a Brushless DC motor. That with the proper motor controller will also provide regenerative braking, excellent speed control, and some other nice features.
Hydraulics are run from a separate brushed DC pump motor. That would be run from the same battery pack, but probably through a controller, so that the appropriate voltage/speed/current could be set. It should also be much more powerful than the original pump on the end of the gas engine. Here's the video on that: • EV Tractor | Convertin...
I laser-cut some cardboard as a test fit to the transmission. Unfortunately, I originally did that photographically, and the accuracy was a little bit off. I worked to create some proper measurements for the adapter plate and I hope to cut the Version 2 test sometime soon. Assuming it's a perfect match, I'll send a file out to get the 1/4" steel cut.
I also found a 3D file of an electric motor that was a very close match to the one I plan to use. I 3D-Printed it out, so I now have a 100% scale mock electric motor.
Motenergy Brushless DC Motors: www.motenergy.com/brdcmo2.html
RoboteQ Motor Controller: www.roboteq.com/products/prod...
3D Prints are made on my Ender 3 S1 Printer: amzn.to/3La0Sig
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Been waiting for you to get up and running with the tractor again. Thank you for charing your projects. Looking forward to see it running.
A note on going clutchless/keeping the flywheel or not - I am making sure to NOT modify the transmission parts. If I go clutchless, I'd just disconnect the clutch pedal. If I decided clutchless wasn't appropriate and I then wanted to add the flywheel, all the parts would still be there to make it happen.
I also have the original flywheel/clutch/clutch-cover AND a new clutch and clutch cover, so I have both parts to build an adapter AND parts to do a stock setup.
Great to see you're still on this project. Thanks for the update!
Good to see this is still being worked on. I was really hoping to see more about it.
Your laser cut cardboard template reminds me of the guys at Bad Obsession Motorsport who love using cardboard aided design (CAD) for creating sheetmetal parts for their projects. Great minds thinking alike.
BTW, the chromakey paint on your walls make me wish you did a backround replacement of something cool like flying through space 🙂
Great Project. Thank you for sharing!
So, I’ve got this “extra” 3 cyl. Ford 4000 that, under load, lost compression in a cylinder. Instead of rebuilding toying with doing an ekectric conversion...thanks for the video. Lots of helpful stuff here. 👍
Glad to hear you're working on this, slowly and taking breaks is perfectly fine. I like the idea of lasering cardboard until you commit to steel.
I think you're better off using that clutch. You keep the full functions of the tractor, and also, a heavy flywheel actually works well in your favor if you're using it to plow and hit a rock, or hitting a stump with the brush hog, etc. that sudden SHOCK to the system will be much less damaging towards the motor because you have the momentum of that heavy spinning flywheel in your favor, and it will absorb most of that shock due to it's high inertia. You can just program your initial start/ spin speed of the motor to be progressive or gradual at first -- so that it allows your flywheel to get moving without a sudden spike in current like it would if you just stomped on the gas all the sudden.
Also, I have to say-- if you're worried about that flywheel being to big or heavy etc. because it's not powerfully enough, then your tractor isn't really going to be that useful. Because when you're pulling a plow in the ground or dragging around a brush hog, or using a post hole digger or whatever else you want to use this for--- it's going to require a lot of torque coming from that motor. I'd use the flywheel and clutch-- that is the absolute best play IMO.
Great video! I think I would have tried putting an alignment rod on the transmission shaft, then using a quarter inch piece of plywood for the template, with a suitable hole in the center for the alignment tool, and just trace the plate outline from the transmission side. Thanks for sharing.
Ive experimented with several dc voltages on my brished EV tractor. 72v is a good middle ground that should allow for easy to find parts and good range.
I’m heavily emotionally invested in your tractor, here in suburban Brisbane, Australia. I strongly believe we must figure out how to convert old rolling stock as part of the transition away from fossil fuel everything. Have you thought of building the battery holder so you can swap out the spent battery pack with a fully charged module to increase the work duration of the tractor? I can’t wait for the next instalment. More strength to your arm!
I want to convert my 47 WC Allis so I'm watching your project closely.
Can't wait for Tractor Momentum to build! I hope to do something like this on one of my farmall Cub's tractors. Or, perhaps cobble one together like yours is. I always thought that was a great find when you were able to adapt those direct parts off of another farmall too.
Dude, you've got a perfect wall for a chroma key behind you.
Glad to see this project again moving, so you have gone away from using the leaf motor and controller and battery's or have I missed a video of a red think. 👍👍
Just trying to figure out what’s best for the project. The Leaf motor needs well over 200v to run. It can spin at up to 10,000 RPM, but old tractors like this run at around 2,000.
@@BenjaminNelsonX right sounds like a bit of a miss fit by a couple of revs. 👍👏
Glad to see this project moving forward again, and it seems like you are getting better at using the various tools which will make it easier to move forward.
The coupling and the PTO still seem like a bit of a question mark - it will be interesting to see what you come up with for that.
Watching to apply thoughts to my ford 8n project I have in mind, I hope you complete the project, and would love source links for parts if you have them
Glad to see an update on this project! I'm in the planning stages of a nearly identical conversion and I'm planning on using a similar motor: the ME1003. Right now I'm trying to decide on which battery modules to use, have you chosen those yet for your conversion?
I haven’t decided yet. In the end, I think it’s just going to be whatever maximizes total KWH under the hood. Right now, I’m just focused on the driveline and I’ll use some small batteries I already have for testing.
We have a '59 IH Cub Lo-Boy on the farm that I am looking to revive, so I am very interested in this conversion.
As you mentioned, you could devise a connector which rotates both shafts so that the PTO can be used when the tractor is moving. Then additionally, using your separate hydraulic capability, devise a system that raises the back wheels slightly so that you can then run the PTO with the tractor stopped if needed :)
Easy to run the PTO with tractor stopped - take it out of gear.
Couple things on the tractor.
If it has a "t.a." torque amplifier, it will not engine brake when the lever is in the rear position.
The flywheel situation. The stock flywheel isn't recommended spinning much faster than factory 1450 although I've been spinning mine to 3500 😮. northwoods engineering out of ham lake mn can make you a cnc aluminum flywheel, they build them for antique tractor pullers.
Interesting about the torque amplifier! I hadn't heard about not engine braking while engaged. I didn't see that listed in the owners manual or anything.
An aluminum flywheel would be slick! Wonder what the cost is on that....
@@BenjaminNelsonX It should be listed in the owners manual under "Torque Amplifier" and then "Driving the Tractor". There's a warning that says:
"Caution! To maintain safe control of the tractor speed and to utilize the engine as a brake during downhill transport operation, the torque amplifier operating handle should be in the direct drive (fully-forward) position.
Note: The torque amplifier operating handle must be in the forward position when it is necessary to tow or push the tractor to start the engine"
Basically when the TA is engaged (pulled back) it has an over-run clutch that will allow the transmission to spin faster than the motor. So even if the motor is completely stopped the tractor could keep rolling while in gear if the TA is engaged.
That flywheel is a huge energy storage, doing the math on this probably will show the motor at a serious torque disadvantage and not a serious replacement option. Stalling motors are not a good thing in general.
Offset the main motor from the drive shaft with gears will give you your horsepower
So glad to see progress on this! I do have one question though: Why 72v? I would think for this project you'd be fine sticking with 48v which would make it a lot easier to source batteries/BMS and other parts as 48v stuff is a lot easier to get than 72v.
With these DC brushless motors the torque you get is a constant amount of force per amp. The voltage only really affects the top end motor RPM. The original gas motor in this tractor maxed out at around 1750 RPM. I don't think you'd want to drive the input shaft of the tractor (The "driven shaft" as you call it) much faster than that as the transmission components weren't engineered to run that fast. You also want to stick with 1750 RPM because that's the RPM that will drive the PTO output shaft at the correct "540 RPM". If your motors runs faster than 1750 then you're going to have issues with everything downstream not running at the right speeds. Given you're probably going to be running this at such a low RPM there's just no need to go with such a high voltage.
The double edged sword here is also the horsepower rating of the motor is based on running it at 5,000 RPM. If you're running it at say 1750 RPM instead, this motor puts out 0.1 ft/lb of torque per amp of input. So at 120 amps (Max continuous) you've got only 12 ft lbs of torque. The stock engine you pulled out of that tractor was capable of pushing around 120 ft/lbs at 1200 RPM (According to the University of Nebraska Testing)
HP = Torque (ft/lbs) x RPM / 5252
So at 12 ft lbs and 1750 RPM you're going to get around 4 horsepower (max continuous) out of this motor. It can surge up to 10 HP for 30 seconds, but that's vastly under-powered compared to the engine you removed, which tested (On a dyno) at 43 HP at the belt. I know you're saving some power from the hydraulic motor, but hydraulics only pull a few HP from the motor, it's not saving you THAT much.
If I were you I'd try to find a motor with a higher torque rating. You don't need the higher RPM that the higher voltage will give you. Instead you need something with more torque. I would completely disregard the HP ratings of the motors you're looking at. At these low RPMs you're never going to approach the max HP of the motor. Instead you should look at their "peak stall torque" and get something that at least peak closer to the 120 ft lbs (163 Nm) that the original gas motor could produce.
The ME1302 for example gets you a lot closer at around 74 ft/lbs, but it's still a far cry away from the 120 ft lbs the original gas motor could make.
The biggest torque output I could find from Motenergy is the ME1616 at 134 Nm / 99 ft lbs. Still not 120 ft lbs, but close enough that this would probably work.
I also think going with a separate motor for the PTO is a great idea. You generally want the PTO to always run at 540 RPM, but when you're mowing, tilling, etc, you may want to adjust your forward ground speed as you navigate bumpy terrain, turns, etc. Having different motors for the wheels and the PTO, you can easily adjust your ground speed while maintaining a constant 540 RPM for the PTO.
One idea I've had for these tractor conversions is having separate motors for the PTO and drive wheels that you can couple together when desired. Basically there are two primary ways to deliver power from a tractor:
1) Tractive power
2) PTO power
When you're mowing, rototilling or doing anything else with the PTO: You want most of your power going to the PTO. In these applications the wheels aren't doing any real work, they are just rolling the tractor around.
But for pulling plows, discs, and other equipment: You need all your power at the wheels. Since these implements don't use the PTO, you don't need any power at the PTO.
So for me I'd love to see a system where the PTO motor can run separate when doing PTO work, or couple it to the drive motor to get all power to the drive wheels when pulling heavy implements like plows. You could use a bigger motor for the PTO and a smaller motor for the drive wheels to save costs (Since the PTO always needs a lot of power when in use, and when not in use that power can be diverted to the wheels anyway)
I wonder if you could re-purpose the clutch to accomplish this: Drive the inside shaft with one motor, the outside shaft with another, and use the clutch to couple them together when desired.
Some interesting thoughts there. Going with 72v would mostly be for lower current for a set amount of work, rather than for higher speed. It’s not much more difficult/expensive to get 72v parts instead of 48, but it does tend to go up quickly above that.
Another good reason to go with a separate PTO is that it would allow running the motor faster, and then gearing down more for the increase in torque.
@@BenjaminNelsonX "Going with 72v would mostly be for lower current for a set amount of work, rather than for higher speed."
So I totally understand where you're trying to go with this. But I think you're going to find that with this application "work" is usually more of a function of "torque" rather than horsepower. With most of these electric motors the key to higher HP ratings is pushing higher torque values at higher RPMs. But in this project you're RPM constrained: You can't really run any faster than 2,000 RPM. 72v would let you do more work with less current at higher RPMs, but not so much in the lower RPM ranges you're dealing with.
According to Motenegery the ME1117 has a torque constant of 0.13 Nm per amp. So 120 amps will give you roughly 12 lb ft of torque, regardless of what voltage you're running. So going with a higher voltage is not going to buy you much. Where as going with a lower voltage would let you buy a smaller number of bigger beefier cells, fewer cell taps, etc. Instead of 24 cells at 200Ah each you can do 16 cells at 300Ah each. You'll get more usable torque this way because you can (generally) pull more amps from 300 Ah cells than 200Ah cells. So you'll likely get more torque from a lower voltage battery with higher Ah cells.
All I'm saying is I would find the perfect motor first, and figure out at what voltage and amperage you get the best power output for your 2,000 RPM application. I would do this before settling on a battery voltage. I'm pretty sure the ME1117 is vastly under-powered (torque wise) for this particular task. Maybe if you add a reduction gear to lower the output RPM and increase the torque it might be a better fit, but if you're going to do a 1:1 gear ratio I think you're going to be underwhelmed by the torque output.
Might just use the flywheel and clutches as they were. With regen you can recapture the rotational inertia.
Not sure if the bearing on the motor can support the weight, though...
Glad to see progress being made!
Would it be possible to weld some sort of a cradle to the motor shaft to take some of the extra weight???
Why I haven't seen an electric motor kit to convert any car in to a hybrid where it helps the pulley system or add a hho generator that actually gives good mpg
Glad to see you working on this project again. I wonder if they make a motor strong enough that would be like those motors on the back of a washing machine tub. That way, it could fit inside the housing and with the PTO spline in the center. Then that would be fully integrated inside and run the PTO? Just a thought. Bet you're glad you bought your Bolt now that GM is ending production! Big mistake on their part.
Do you actually need a flywheel with the electric motor torque?
Nice thing about reverse engineering old equipment designed on a drawing board is the dimensions are almost always a fractional inch.
I would keep the clutch is you can. Maybe take the flywheel to a machine shop and have some weight reduction done. I bet they could easily whittle 20lbs off of it. If you do any mowing, you want the clutch.
You might could find a crankshaft from a similar tractor to make your adapter from. It would be a lot less machining to just cut the end off and add a keyed shaft.
When you make your next template, go through the access hole in the bottom to check shaft alignment. I like architecture chip board over cardboard for strength. Maybe cut out a few layers to stack up.
The issue is really that driven shafts in transmissions are "floppy" - they always have a bit of play to them. The shaft itself can't be used to find center. Be center on version 1 of the cardboard template was only about half an inch vertical. I'm not sure I would have been able to see that anyways looking up from below the tractor.
The next thing up from cardboard for me would be 1/4" plywood. My friend's laser can cut that easily, and I'm planning to use 1/4" steel plate, so the dimensions would match.
Maybe when I do that, I can get a camera looking up into the transmission from below!
If I kept the clutch and flywheel, the bare minimum I would want to do is at least take some weight off of it.
@@BenjaminNelsonX I like the 1/4 plywood idea. Might could add a small access hole to in in the test piece. I would think the motor could handle a decent about of weight hanging off of it. Remember a belt drive with a 6in pulley and 20ft lbs of torque places 80lbs of transverse load on a motor shaft. I still think turning down the flywheel to remove some weight would be a good thing.
Which type motor bldc,pmsm
The motor shown in this video is a permanent magnet brushless DC motor.
I am closely following what you are doing here. I have a 1953 Allis Chalmers WD with a bad engine. I have already rebuilt the brakes. I also bought a parts tractor, but found it also had a bad engine. I may go electric.
I need to chat with you sometime soon anyways! There's a guy near by who is converting a classic Fiat to electric. He's having issues getting the Orion BMS working on it. I'm 3D printing some parts for his project.
@@BenjaminNelsonX I have some experience with Orion BMS. I actually helped beta test their new v2 BMS models. What sorts of issues is he having? Has he contacted them for support? They are usually very responsive.
@@BenjaminNelsonX I would be happy to help if I can.
You will need 12 to 15 gpm on the hydraulic pump and 2000psi for a loader to have decent speed and lifting force. I having grown up using these old tractors on a farm I have used slower pumps and it isn't fun waiting for them.
The feature you are giving up by not being able to stop forward motion while running the PTO is called live power. It is used baling hay or running a harvester to stop the tractor to process a bunch through the attachment without breaking sheer bolts. If you don't plan on using It for harvesting you won't miss that but a brush hog might push you into something while if spins down when you come to the end of a row. The flywheel is something I debate myself for a farmall H I would like to convert. I worry that without the spinning mass of the flywheel the pto attachment might be too big a load to start with the electric motor. I know stall torque is high on electric motors but it is hard to know what the design stall torque was for tractor attachments. I am very curious to see how you make out as I would love to convert my grandfather's 1950 Farmall H just to give it new life in my summer haying business.
The issue with a brush hog on a tractor that doesn't have live power is that the transmission will be back driven by the pto inertia and you will not be able to slip the pto or transmission out of gear when you press the clutch disconnecting the motor. An overrun clutch helps but isn't perfect on those tractors. I have used that solution before it is definitely better you definitely don't want to come to the end of the field brush hogging and have the brush hog power your tractor until you use up the energy in it. Learned that the hard way.
The problem with a overrun clutch is you have to wait for the attachment to spin down before you can engage a different gear. I debate if regeneration on an electric motor would be a good alternative for that or not.
@@DanA-nl5uo I think Regen would be good for some tasks and not other. When doing loader work, the ability to regen and reverse the electric motor would allow work without shifting. Probably wouldn't want to do that same thing with PTO attachments.
@@GMC.Sprint I don't think the transmission would allow for simply spinning the motor the other direction anyways. I put the clutch disk on the driven shaft and used that to spin it by hand. It spins clockwise fine, but seems to lock up trying to spin it counter-clockwise.
@@BenjaminNelsonX I'm not sure about that tractor. Is yours equipped with the TA (10 speed) transmission? I know the TA units use an overrun clutch to change gears without using the clutch. That might not allow it to spin backwards. It might only work with the high low splitter in one position. Most old tractor transmissions are very simple sliding gear units and shouldn't really care which way they spin.
@@GMC.Sprint Yes, this one has the Torque Amplifier. I don’t remember if it was engaged or not when I tried spinning it the other direction. I’ll have to check again with the TA both engaged and not.
Electric green?
The actual color name is "Limelight".
Most people joke that I'm trying to chroma-key in our spare room!
@@BenjaminNelsonX You could hide a new Kawasaki in there. Your wife will never find it.