Should You Run Two Pairs of Speakers for Stereo?
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- I notice some folks like to run two pairs of speakers for stereo. In this video, I explore the reasons why this may not be a good idea of your primary focus is on accurate music reproduction and hearing all of the details in your favorite recordings. I discuss two concerns that can impact the focus and imaging properties of a stereo recording when running two pairs of speakers at the same time. I discuss the scenario of only running one pair of speakers at a time and how it can still negatively impact the fidelity of your system. I discuss what you can do with those extra speakers that will serve you far better than running as a stereo second pair.
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I am currently using 4 pair of speakers in stereo and two subwoofer cabinets. Each cabinet has its own eq curve and time alignment. It was such a pain to get it right. It took me weeks to set up, but the outcome is near perfect to my ears. The bass response was by far the most difficult to get right. At listening position, you can't tell the sounds is coming from any particular speaker, even if you look right at it. Friends of mine had no idea music could be so enveloping. It's so satisfying.
I’m running a very similar set up right now and the sound is just phenomenal
I'm doing this in a small home theater with 90% music use, 10% movies. Minus the subwoofers. This got me +11 dB on bass and sub-bass down to 20Hz and +5dB higher up. There was some flaming on forums. I am using DSP modes in the AVR to switch between genres of music. It is perfect for live gig recordings. I get some trippy effects on some modes. I think I get some time smearing from the tweeters - but I can disconnect those. The crossovers are at 5kHz. I guess I could add LPFs to reign in the mids.
I had done this in the past too. I had a large space too fill at my work space. I did this on a shoe string budget. It literally took years to get it near perfect. Once I did l literally had a beautiful stage in front of me 16 or so feet back into the room. The sound was spectacular. The equipment was not expensive all second hand thrift store, from freinds, curbside and dumpsters. Every thing was there to be heard ( and some new stuff I didn't know was there ) and quite loud after the shop closed if I wanted. Nothing was next to each other. I cried when it had to come down...some of the regular customers weren't happy about it either. Bottom line experiment give each set of speakers thier own amplifier don't be afraid of equalizers and cover the cinder block wall with ruff plained rail road ties. Anyway make what you have work. So now I have a set of small speakers in my basement with a pair of Bose 301series IIs ( a pair of old Advent orange fried eggs in front) sitting outside and next to them . A pair of s speakers in paint cans on the floor behind me. The first watt is very nice wherever I am with a good sound stage. Those cinder blocks are covered with red oak plywood boards in the basement.
I made some stereo distributed mode loudspeakers for some fun. A/B them with some elac debut 5.2’s, very different sounds. Then I ran together because why not and and loved it, perfect complements.
I run my 4 speaker setup with the other 2 speakers as surround speakers, as you mentioned near the end of your video. I like it. Also, don't have to turn up the music as loud to get that "immersive" music sound and disturbing the neighbors. 😁
Saved me from typing the same this.
I'm running 4 as dual stereo and they sound amazing :)
I didn't know people did this with two pairs up front. Seems overkill but I must admit it looks cool lol. I like to utilize my surrounds for 2 channel music listening. I have a 5.2 setup but in my Anthem receiver I have a profile for music where I use 'all stereo' with the center off & the rear speakers at a much lower level than the fronts, you almost can't even tell they're on until you turn down the fronts. The effect is a much wider & "wrap around" stereo image. I know this is sacreligious to 2 channel purists but I find it hard to resist once I've dialed it in. It's kind of similar to the old Pro Logic 2 music type DSP's but much cleaner & fuller sounding when I compare the two modes.
So with what was said about comb filtering, does this mean bipole speakers are an inherently poor concept? I just ditched some Def Tech SR9080's that seemed to have lots of comb filtering when I slightly moved my head, I could hear the highs coming & going... Failed experiment, back to monopole & happier.
Yes I think bipole are better than dipole but nothing compares to correctly placed monopole speakers with proper tuning for the room correction. Having said that, there are some situations and room layouts where bipole speakers are useful for home theater.
Can you use that set for music, or is in on 2 speakers only when you play music?
You need a good algorithm that can do music on 5.1 system, the < 2008 systems just can't do that for me.
some sets can do 2 speaker sets, that can be on algorithms so it sounds good
I had a pair of B&W DM 570s and B&W DM 300s running next to each other and I thought it sounded amazing the 300's had a punchier bass and the 570's had more present treble
Much to my surprise I never thought I would endorse more then on pair of L/R mains... Until I heard a pair of jamo 507a's (ran as the inside pair) and a pair of Mirage Omni 150's (ran the outside pair) the two seemed to compliment eachother and really made an amazing sound stage for all that was listened to. Now that being said don't know how that does with home theater and all only listened in stereo modes with music.
I run 2 pair simultaneously and it’s fantastic. Go figure I got the idea from my car 30 years ago. Seems like a no brainer. Park yourself in the middle and enjoy the X-Factor
Good content Gene.
I've tried the multiple speaker setup in my younger days with JBL L-166 bookshelf speakers.
The best results I've gotten was stacking them. Two pairs, left & right each on top of each other.
The impact was quite satisfying!
The bass hit with much more authority & depth! It totaled four 12" woofers! If you want to feel concert bass there's no way around cheating physics.
The thing with the L-166 Horizon were their mid/tweeter arrangements. They were positioned side by side in vertical. In horizontal the mid/high are better aligned, not perfect. Weird that JBL would make a bookshelf horizontal rather than the classic standard vertical ? Also weird, they weren't mirror pairs either?
But stacking them helped them do a better job at producing realistic sound levels monitoring.
It only made clear to step up to JBL L-150A. They were towers with two 12" woofers each. That achieved the effect in a 12" square foot print.
It wasn't utopian..but it was very impressive for young ears & poprock & 70s Fusion.
I put a powered sub on the bottom of each speaker column
@@davidcarper5411 Now that's how to dislodge teeth. Lol
Is it possible to hook up the speakers parallel to the receiver
@@dennisbooth7097 I think that's what happens anyway when two pairs of speakers are run at the same time ?
What I do know is it drops the amps resistance to 4 ohms if the 2 pairs are 8 ohm rated ?
Only high current amps can handle such low loads at good volume without distortion or meltdown..or tweeter fry from all the dirty harmonics under distortion.
I went through plenty of tweeters until I figured that out ??
Only beefy receivers have anything under 4 ohms.
I only attempted running parallel with power amps. I believe I 1st tried that rigging with an NAD 2200.
@@dennisbooth7097 not recommended, the impedance could go very low which most receivers can t handle.
Back in the 70’s when I was in college, people were stacking AR 3a’s or similar, with the top speaker inverted. It’s not too dissimilar to the modern tall speakers of today.
I had these considerations when setting up my latest and probably final incarnation of a stereo system in our retirement home(I'm 71 and have been involved with audio (non-professionally) since the late '60s).
I decided to pull out the stops and build the best system I could put together. The system is a mix of old and new and is only used for Stereo/LPs, no streaming or radio which can be had on the HT next to the stereo.
Turntables
Thorens TD-160C with Shure V15III (New 1976) - using Project Tubebox S2
VPI Prime, 10.5" printed arm, Ortofon 2M Black 250 LVB.(2021) using the McIntosh phono.
Amps
McIntosh MA352 (20201)
McIntosh MC275 VI (2022) on the 2nd pre-output of the MA352
Speaker Selector
Niles Audio selector with volume control to balance the speakers
Speakers:
JBL L100 (New) Century on the MA352 output 1 (Inside pair)
Klipsch Forte II -(New 1989) modified with new tweeters and x--over.
The Inside pair are about 10' apart and the listening position is about 15' back. The speakers are about 3' from the wall.
So far I find I prefer the mix of the 2 amps/speakers. The speakers appear to compliment each other and fill in each others shortcomings. I tried 2 subs in the system originally but have pulled them, preferring the sound without them.
It's possible (more likely probable) that my ears are getting old but I am finding the sound to be exquisite. I switch back and forth to the individual speakers and keep returning to the 2 pairs.
I find I can get lost in the sound (with or without bourbon) and I have not found an issue with the soundstage.
Maybe I just got lucky? Maybe the laws of physics don't apply in my man-cave?
I, like you, I find that speaker pairs, from different amps, running the same stereo signal, can indeed complement each other. That’s the principle of singers who harmonize. That’s the principle of a chorus. I’ve continued to add amplifiers and speakers of a bookshelf variety to my own stereo system in a small office. I have 10 stereo pairs of bookshelf speakers and five subwoofers. By adjusting volume heights direction and the equalizers on each amp, I’ve been able to create a chorus of speakers with a distinct phantom center for vocals and a great sound stage for a single listener and a single position me while I work at my computer workstation. The sound is amazing as I continue to tweak The signals going to each pair from each separate amplifier. Most of the speakers are 20 years old purchase from thrift stores along with 20 year old amplifiers. The whole system costs very little. But I love the sound.
Hello Elliot, same here. I paired Wharfedale Opus 2-2 with vintage Technics SB 7070 for the fronts. For stereo I use a vintage Luxman L-580. The sound is sublime, they complement each other. Excellent clarity, imaging and big sound. They sound much better then each of them individually. Much more detail and no need for sub, the technics have 14 inch bass drivers.
@@KellyGerling Wow! That's impressive! I have to try something similar...
I feel well positioned 4.2 configuration is great just not all up front
Also, when mixing two different types of speakers, the different group delay characteristics will often cause more cancellation.
What if it's 2 sets of the same speakers
@@joeschmoe435 the same speakers will work well as long as they are equidistant to the listener or if you time align them. Otherwise, vocal clarity will suffer.
Hi,. How about if all the speakers are the same and placed or located in each corner of the room. I also use multiple amps. One drives the treble, one drive the mids and one for bass. What's your opinion on this setup. I am interested to know what you would say to this. One thing I've noticed is stereo speration is very good. It sounds very good at low volumes. This is the best sounding and realistic system I've ever built.
Cool video. I just figured this out for myself when I added a pair of Focal chorus 807v to my system. The speakers sound great but I like them played by themselves with a subwoofers ×2 . I tried them as front presence channels and running the Polk r 200s as my mains but it didn't sound right.
Promoter: How big do you want your speakers?
Audioholics: Yes
Back when I was a kid, around 15 years old I did this as well but quickly discovered that no matter how you do it it’s still better with one pair alone than with dual pairs. More often than not those setups sound horrible. The last two systems I saw like this were both Klipsch. It’s like they buy the lower one and then buy a higher model but want to keep them both connected somehow. Then they get used to the wall of sound, and there’s no going back.
For good old fashioned 4 speaker stereo, stacking them instead of side by side can make a nice difference.
Most car stereo have stereo pair (4 channel speakers playing 2.0 channel stereo content)
When I play two sets of speakers I have them on top of each other
I have 4.1 setup (never found a center I liked, but that's a different discussion). This is of course 2 main and 2 rear, not side by side. If I play 2 channel it sounds great, but I feel it's fantastic in all channel stereo. Belive the setting on my pioneer is Ext.Stereo (Extended Stereo). But I have wondered if this is a loudness bias, as I do Jump back and forth. Also you didn't talk about power subs and how that could change the dynamics. I have a large record collection, and a sub feels like a must for pushing out those lower frequency. Does the source change your opinion on this?
My first major car stereo was a quadraphonic eight track. I'll never forget dark side of the moon in quad. I kept that deck until I couldn't find parts for it anymore. I even took it apart and adjusted the speed of the motor until the tracks were perfect length.. ahh the old days
I run two pairs of Klipsch kg 5.5 fronts speakers but got them to sound better if I put them in stacked position and the top pair upside down so the horns are close together and I love it for now but I always try different things so until a new idea comes along I'll leave them like that .
Seeing this gave me the idea about trying to distribute the center channel between the inner set and leaving the outer set left and right. It would seem to be a way to create a phantom center image directly in the center of the screen.
I'm doing this next in my experiments. A single center channel sounds alien to me.
I think if he’s stacking up all those Cerwin Vega speakers ,he’s not worried about hi fidelity 😂 He’s rocking!!🤘🏻🤘🏻
Under 4 minutes to the best point of the video; as someone that produces music I apply comb filters to sound to create nulls intentionality, and it’s crazy how much that made understanding stereo fields just click in my brain. Great vid as always.
(And as I’d said on Twitter unprompted, why doing phase reversal testing to extract any delta between components would be a neat way to bridge subjective and objective; similar to the comb effect, but done to measure content)
completely disagree with the assertions made in this video Blog.
I run 5 pairs of speakers through 5 power amps controlled by 5 preamps in stereo in a 27'x18'x12' treated room + a sub and it is GLORIOUS!!!
I have not experienced 'comb filtering' and the soundstage is pinpoint accurate.
I can switch in each 'set up' one at a time and it keeps getting better. I'm not talking about bookshelf speakers but towers. I have no doubt that the sound gets more solid and concert realistic with very little distortion because each set is just coasting along. I still like to get to concert levels and dozens of people who have heard it are blown away.....
You created sound reinforcement. Congrats.
How do you use a single source to output to that many preamps or amps simultaneously?
You asked for it...I run an older Denon AVR487 Pushing Four Fisher STV 884s (all side by side) 15 inch woofers...Two powered Subs..Four front Surrounds...(Bose cubes)...and TwoTechnics bookshelfs...Its been this way for four years!!!...Sound is very clear..and near impossible to tell where it comes from...P,S. NO..the Denon Never Overheats..ed
I agree gene....how people don't notice this is scary...i am willing to bet those people listen more to music than movies....but i think 🤔 if they are identical now you talking,but amps does the same creating a big dynamic sound ...thats all you do id doubling the sound coming from a set of 4 identical speakers...great video
I am running 4 pairs of Polk Audio T-15 Bookshelf speakers from a Yamaha AS301 (60 watts per channel). The speakers are 8 Ohm impedance so I wire them in parallel so the impedance is 4 Ohms. I connect each parallel pair to the A, B speaker terminals so I can switch then from the front of the amplifer. If iset it to A+B I have 8 speakers running. I can perceive no differnce between running 4 at a time vs all 8 if I adjust the volume. I stack the speakers (on their sides) in sort of a poor mans linear array. I have a large family room with high celing. I love this set up as the amp runs cool to the touch. I cannot turn the voilume up more than half way or its too loud. I have a Polk SW-10 subwoofer (gain set at the mid point) connected to the LFE output of the Amplifier. I have connected my TV to the amp via the optical output and even though it is only in 2 channel stereo it sounds great. For example in action movies you can hear a helicopter moving across ythe sound stage and dialog is clear ( I ahev no center channel). I prefer 2 channel becuase I mainly listen to music. I paid $49.00 a pair for the T-15s, $349.00 for the Yamaha amp and $119.00 for the Subwoofer. I consider it a budget hi-fi system. I'd like to upgrade but I think I spend most of my hi-fi budget on CDs ( I have over 1500 CDs + hundreds of cassette tapes and Vinyl). Is there a simple way to determine how many watts are going to the speakers .....I tried measuring the voltage & current with a multimeter as I know Power in Watts = Voltage x Current (at least in a DC circuit). Anyhow to my ears I get a lot of enjoyment out of the system as the Yamaha brings out great detail and stereo imaging. For the price I have not been able to find anything that beats this however I am on the lookout to upgrade one day.
What if you STACK two different types of speakers in 2.0 stereo setup? Use two amps, boost highs on top, lows on bottom, bi-amping the system? I have done this many times and got sound greater than the sum of all parts. Any thoughts on this setup regarding interference patterns? Thanks.
Any time you run multiple speakers playing the same signal without proper time delay or processing, you're causing combing effects. Flipping and stacking is an equally bad idea: ua-cam.com/video/r84ynSuFt6g/v-deo.html
I have a setup that will make you cringe. I have 2 old school 3 ways with 12" woofers in front and 2 bookshelf speakers on stands in the rear. I have an 8" ported sub behind my couch with the port pointed at the back of the couch. The bookshelf speakers don't have the same sensitivity as the big speakers so they play at a slightly lower volume. I have reversed the left/right signal so the rear speakers are right/left. This adds another dimension to the sound. I don't listen to everything this way but use this most of the time. There is no question that my system is not in the same category as those you and your followers are used to but I love it and isn't that what counts?
I hope I don't get too much abuse for admitting this.
So the front left and the back (left) are plugin on the R side of the amp ??.... Just changing the polarity of each back not enough ??
@@KillerKojak The back left is connected to the right output, the back right is connected to the left output *L- R
R- L
I use one for full and one just the bass section as most hifi speakers have bi amp connectors anyways
.
Lol, I disagree so much. I have floor standing speakers with bookshelf speakers on top and it sounds fantastic. I use a speaker switch so I can choose either one or both. They are different makes, one has a good tweeter and bass but the midrange lacks while the other pair is an all around great speaker. On their own each speaker pair sounds good. I say only good because when you turn them both on the difference is incredible. You immediately notice better sound throughout the whole sound stage. When playing Country roads by John Denver, a song I know as my go too for speaker setup, you get left and right separation with background singers. If I play either pair alone I lose the background singer on the right and only half of the left background singer. It might actually be only one background singer but they move from right to left. Something that really makes it work is the fact that I can literally walk around the entire apartment and the sound only decreases in volume a few db but the quality doesn't change. Also the sound stage collapses a bit with only one pair on. I listen between 65 to 75 db and feel like I've discovered how to make the perfect speaker by using speakers that complement each others weaknesses. This wouldn't work or make sense using two pair of the same speakers as they have the same sound signature but using two different pairs that are good at some things and not others works. I see it like using bookshelf speakers and a sub, they complement each other. I have 8 speakers, 4 each side, 3 bookshelf speakers on floor standers as an experiment. I have switched between all of them trying to find what works and I have been successful with only one combination. The others are not different enough in sound reproduction to create a successful pairing. So I have taken speakers that are good and made them fantastic. Nothing i have heard comes close to this setup. Funny thing is the floor standers are very fatiguing on their own. Two hours of listening and your ears hurt and you get a headache. Pairing them with another set has produced a sound stage that you can listen to all day everyday with zero harshness or fatigue at all. Actually they sound so great that I'm always eager to turn them on as if listening to them is like giving your hearing a break from the world, like your ears are going on vacation. If I had a UA-cam channel I would be trying to get you to do this it works so well. To me no speaker by itself will ever be perfect but two really good speakers that complement the differences between them makes music, literally.
Do eat you like but you're causing lots of frequency response issues in your setup.
ua-cam.com/video/r84ynSuFt6g/v-deo.html
@@Audioholics It doesn't affect sound If your space between top and bottom And put a slight angle on the top speaker so it's pointed more upwards That's good speaker stands between them
Very good analysis! I wondered how it would be in a Studio Room where it is common to have Near-field , Mid-fields and Main Monitors side by side? Your thoughts
A Anechoic chamber is great for tests but not for listening , adjust your home/car to taste not just specifications. All ears are sorta different. You can hear the room by covering one ear for test. Listen and learn
My brother/sister audiophiles
I do have two pairs of speakers connected to my amp but I never run them together, 1 is some big focal Towers , the other pair is some monitor Audio bookshelves set on top of the focal Towers , one would argue that it's really bad idea but they never play together, the focals is for daytime listening and the monitor audios for evening listening as in the UK we have small flats with really bad sound insulation, they both run with room correction and I did once try to listen to music with all the speaker on and although it is definitely louder , the sound accuracy and the sound stage was horrendous but I had to try to realise that running two pairs of speakers together is a really really bad idea if you do like accuracy .
Hey Gene,
I know this is an older post, but just found it.
You noted it would be a good addition ( having front wides) in an Atmos configuration, but in that scenario the front wides are pulled forward.
What would be the problem if they were wide, but set back closer to the back wall (but with room to breath) and boosted in volume a little more (run from a separate amp via front pre-outs)? Would that potentially help the in a stereo listening mode (if for example you had a couple different types of speakers you really liked, but other-wise want to keep your setup speaker consistent for Dolby Atmos movie viewing).
Or does that also create cancellation effects etc. even if both sets are toed-in directly focused toward a listener in the typical center (left to right-wise) of the room.
This I would I think would at least help with A/B listening even if the B set weren’t in the perfect place for a typical Stereo listening setup.
Thanks, and love the detailed “why” beyond the typical content/advice given on some other stations that you provide!
Short answer-Depending on the size of your room you can use 2 or 4 speakers and that can give you better results...
Hi, I'll get soon a pair of 3-way floor standing speaker to replace my bookshelves ones. What I had in mind, is place the two bookshelves left and right from my listening position but on the same line as me or almost on the same line. I can't place them really behind like in a classic quadraphonic setup. And send them audio that is only present on their respective sides (so something like negate L from R and R from L respectively), I've found a solution to do it (there are few vst plugin that are dedicated to mid-side treatment and do that), will have to fix delay, cancellation, phase issues, etc, also the room is treated, but not at all for that config, but what do you think about the idea ?
I don't know what the result will be, but I think I might get a better soundstage maybe by having full L or R signal being sent from another source that is more to the right and left from my listening position. Would also have some kind of high pass filter on them to have them only reproduce signal above, maybe 300Hz, don't know yet, will have to try. (in any case, I have the hardware etc to try it, so the experiment will not really cost me anything outside of time).
Thank you for this video and maybe for your answer ^^
4 pair? let's see 4x2=8 Whoa Nelly. Ive got 1 pr of Sansui and 1 pr of Pioneer but my puter room is 9x9. It's all fun
Don't ask the Lansing Heritage Forum. Their heads will melt! I say whatever trips your trigger....
I run 3 pairs,, sounds awesome
I'm running a set of Kef R3's and a set of Monitor Audio Silver 50's. Thinking of add some Revel M16's as well.
Magnepan did listening tests with non-professional listeners where they did three channel stereo with a center channel that played L+R at half the volume (- 3 db) and for orchestral music people found it to sound more like an orchestra. In the 1930's Bell Labs published that this was the way to play orchestral music.
For opera where you might not want the effect of a center channel if you want to place individual singers I turn off the center channel or play it in 5 channel if the disc has it and I use 5 channels for SACD. I have a selector switch on my center channel amplifier and I have the drivers of the 45 triodes driving an extra pair of 45 triodes the outputs of which go through one output transformer to get L+R without interfering with the stereo channels. Then I transformer couple the stereo channels to the grids of 833A radio station transmitter tubes run gently at 1000 Volts through Hammond's biggest air gapped output transformers to get enough power to use Magnepan 0.7 speakers and because the Magnepan center channel is slightly different from the stereo speakers I use a more modest GM70 triode.
Two pairs of speakers will generate 8 sound arrivals at both ears.This confuses the ear /brain mechanism even more than i pair, which results in 4 sound arrivals.
I dont know if i even qualify as an audiophile. I have svs ultra towers and a legit 100 watt rms yamaha integraded. It will pound your chest and the imaging is very exceptional.
How do you feel about stacked speakers, one on top of another? My dad's system is 4 pioneer hpm 900s 2 stacked left and 2 stacked right, powered by an a pioneer sx1280, and 2 1000 watt subs. It sounds like your at a rock concert. Just interested in your opinion. Thanks for the video
Gene what about stacking speakers (they never sounded good side bey side) But My older DLK 1 1/2 speaker were Stacked sounded better than just one, back in those day imaging was not yet invented or designed in the speaker and by stacking the speakers actually had better separation and imaging, Same w the DLK 2 and 3 (Stacking height was 49" to 53")
In my book if it sounds good - do it. I have built my system to a tight budget with mainly second user kit and I have to say I have developed a great sound (to my ears).
Two matched Amps and two similar Tannoy Floor standers bi-wired, I have tried all sorts of combinations and only with both amps and both pairs of speakers do I get the detail and soundstage. I do not allow myself to be seduced by graphs and sine waves on paper and just stick to my ears. I have spent less than £2,000 on two 120W NAD amps, two Tannoy Floor standers, a Michell deck, a Pure Tuner, a NAD CD and a NAD Cassette.
So I probably do not have the most sensitive or refined ear which is just as well as I could not afford to support more demanding ears. Bottom line is I am very happy with my system and it's two pairs of speakers.
Good video Gene, I enjoyed it.
My only comment would be I find the use of four speakers up front a terrible waste when they could be used to expand the system into a multich rig. For music there's no need to have a center channel and running 5.1 source in a quad playback system will work just fine.
I was confused by your comment against using towers for rear channels since bookshelf's are always placed on ear level stands anyway? What's the difference?
cent' anni.
Sal1950
Hi,
I have one pair of Monitor Audio silver 6 floorstander speakers on the outside of a pair of Quad Esl63 electrostatic speakers. Looking from the left- 1 Monitor Audio cabinet then 1 electrostatic speaker, then TV table with 49inch TV, then 1 electrostatic speaker and finally 1 Monitor Audio cabinet speaker.
I swap the speaker pairs over occasionally but I have never had both pairs of speakers running at the same time. The Quad speakers sound totally different from the Monitor Audio speakers ,more detailed but with less bass. Don't think I will ever play music through both pairs at the same time.
My amplifier only has one set of speaker outputs and it's not much hassle to swap the cables from one pair to the other, especially with banana plugs on the end of each cable. Don't want to risk damaging my classic Roksan Kandy KA1 MK3 amplifier.
Plus, most music has been mastered for 2 channel stereo and not 4 channel stereo. Okay, you can get 5.1 sound now but that's for surround sound systems.
Regarding running 2 pairs of speakers in stereo. I'm running two Klipsch 620's on the main Denon receiver but I also bi amped a 4ohm JVC running two Polk RT 35's . The Klipsch towers are 6 feet apart, then the bi amped Polk's are 3 ft farther and 1 ft forward and pointed at the main seating position . I wish I could just send you a picture. I use them both Klipsch and the Polk's in surround as well, so with the Klipsch center, it's a gentle curve in the front. (Worst room Ever! ) I love it but I haven't tried any other configurations yet.....any input? And I'm stuck against the back wall so I still have to figure out sub placement, 2 Klipsch 12 " subwoofers. But that is a different question for a different video. Any positive input is welcome.
I have a different and somewhat unique use case. I like omnidirectional speakers. My first were gen1 Bose 601's (stolen in a break-in unfortunately). Currently have Ohm Walsh 5000 Talls. Also have pair of Magnepan LRS+ on order. Seeking a budget, quasi-omindirectional setup for a non-primary listening space. Current "experiment" is 3 pairs of Sony SS-CS5's ($113 per pair from Amazon) stacked one upon the other on custom tripod speaker stands to insure the middle, primary pair's tweeters are aimed directly at primary listening position with tweeter exactly at ear level. Bottom pair are aimed "out" exactly 90 degrees from primary pair (HUGE room with sidewalls 10 feet away). Top pair are inverted and aimed "in" 90 degrees from primary pair, and bouncing off 120" home theatre screen on back wall. Distance between stacks is approximately 10 feet. In summary, the "stacks" are pretty much squared up at their corners -- and held in place with some Blue Tac -- with the top and bottom speakers drivers facing in opposite directions.) Also present are a pair of SVS 1000 Pro's crossed over at 80Hz. Have only completed preliminary listening tests, but initial experience is that it sounds good -- for the money (3 x $113 = $339). Much more listening in store as summer winds down and we head into a Michigan winter. NOTE: Have purchased the GR Research upgrade for the primary, on-axis pair but have not yet had time to install.
You have taken exempels for drivning two different paires, but what about pairing two paire of smål speakers of the same model with the same preamp that has got two identical output to two identical poweramps in stereo? Exempel: RME + 2* Rotel RB-1552 + 2* paire of Dali Rubicon2 in a d'appolito position
W. H. R
Aright, I'll throw my $.02 cents on the pile, it comes down to a question as to why someone would do that? Answer: the speakers they currently have do not produce a full enough sound. One can be a purist on original intent of the artist that produced the art or the consumer of the art that can tweak it to their own likes. (See any car made in 1969 IMO The best year of Car manufacturing) But if anybody here would leave that radio and speaker because that's how it was designed to be heard, you're not an audioholic. I have run multiple speakers in the past for exactly this reason. Separately each speaker was lacking and whatever purity I would have gotten from either set still sounded lacking in fullness, conversely four speakers vastly improved the sound I like. I refuse to except the premise that because I can only afford to buy up to a certain level of quality, I must accept it for purity.
Source! Source! Source!!!!!!!!!! To me that starts on the backend, the speaker and goes back to the source material pushing it.
I take zero issues with the thoughts in this video in order to achieve pure replication or anything Gene said. Additionally it was stated if you want to do this go ahead, I fully agree!!! However, the assumption of this theory has to be that all speakers are better on their own and will provide the sound desired to a listening position better than two sets. Every speaker brings a different sound to your ears. Infinity years ago, had a Kappa Series of speakers 6,7,8,and 9's. As each speaker increased in model number so did the sound quality and price. The 7's had a tweeter, midrange and woofer. The 9's had two of each and sounded much better. If it didn't sound better everyone would have just bought the 6's. (I get it, meters prove unwanted noise with multiple cabinets, placement, cancelations, and all sorts of measurable non-purity.) I only use one meter and that is my ears, just because four speakers are running it's not twice as loud. My ears are safe. Decibels are decibels, it doesn't matter how many sources its coming from. It's not all about loud and most people do not sit in a listening position all the time. For most of my life, "just buy better speakers" was not an option to be considered so I say rip that dashboard speaker out and throw in whatever you can afford and like! If a good source ends up in a bad/lacking speaker, do what you must to make it the best you can. Bad purity is still bad.
I run two pairs but of the exact same models purchased at the same time. I would never dream of running two pairs of different models as "audio intuition" would suggest it would be a disaster. I absolutely love my setup. I still have great imaging and soundstage PLUS massive output with very low distortion as none are working very hard.
how do speakers like the tekton (6 tweeters in a circle acting as a single woofer) not have a ton of combing?
depending on my seating i can run a two set system or even a three set system. it not comb filtering uncontrolably, preserving details and having a great stereo image is a coicidence created by positioning and my room.
it started when using the boombox on the wall behind my seat on my desk as back speakers for surround sound. for curriosities sake i ran both from the same 2 channel signal, which resulted in a cancelation at my seat that created binaural stereo. i now use binaural instead of surround.
when moving from the desk chair to my tv seat (the wall 90° to my desk) i noticed the two speaker sets creating a correct stereo image centered on my tv, so i ran the tv speaker setup (center, sub, L-R, L-R ultrawide) in synchronization to see if it still fits, and it did.
all these things combined have a better frequency response than any of the sets alone. and the image is awesome.
so i now use this frankenstein wall of sound made from desktop speakers, a boombox and the tv setup as my cinema and listening system.
400 lbs speakers that like the guy drinking Gin at the end of the party a real alcoholic.
I use multi channel stereo with my surround sound for music all the time and I think its just better than 2 speakers
Grow a set. Or buy a set🤷♂️get your self some good head phones.
On the contrary I'm seeing a 2 towers of speakers right behind him?
I'm surprised he didn't mention the subwoofer setup for that klipsch picture.
what make and model floor speaker do you use...shown in backround of this video?
On paper it's bad . In practicality it's amazing 😂
Too much money, not enough sense. I could see two sets of speakers in different rooms though.
this is crazy, why would anyone do this
Check youtube and Facebook audio groups. You'll be surprised.
I run two pairs of speakers carefully positioned vertically stacked tweeter to tweeter. I also use a tuned baffle between the tweeters. Frequency sweeps indicate the linearity is better with the two pairs than with a single pair. This configuration is based on the Advent stack principle with the baffle my contribution. Imaging does not suffer. I must point out this is a proof of concept setup using four Sony SS-CS5s.
That still causes acoustical interference issues:
ua-cam.com/video/r84ynSuFt6g/v-deo.html
@@Audioholics Do you guys take private questions? If you do how is it arranged….
@@Charles12509 www.audioholics.com/combo-pack-ebooks
A sweep will not necessarily pick up on lobing or comb filtering issues. It might look linear, but you're still losing information through interference and comb filtering.
I consulted an amplifier and speaker designer about all the THEORETICAL problems of what I was doing. His take was after doing dozens of designs and then building them following theory and computer modeling, he found the end result usually depended on the room and placement. The design did not necessarily predict what the result would be. In this case the pros far outweigh the cons. This was done with real world experimentation. In other words I listened to them and made changes until I got what I was looking for instead of just saying this won't work so I won't even try.
I am running 1.5 sets of speakers from an amp with A/B channels and I definitely care about "accuracy". I have LS 50s about 7 feet off the wall with Rti A9s (woofers only) 3 feet behind and to the side. I plug the ports on all of my speaker because I need tight and accurate bass. The speakers totally disappear and present a very wide and deep layered sound stage. I have a much better system, but what I like about this set up is that I get strong bass even at lower volume with port plug in. It's like having a loudness button without degrading the signal with tone controls.
The Polks are 6 dB more efficient than the LS 50s, so the bass is louder but in a good way, because I use port plugs for tight and accurate bass. I despise bloated or resonated boomy bass, but I am getting none of it in this set up.
I know it's not really what you are referring too. I would not waste time setting up two pairs of mids and highs. That would be a given disaster.
Great info to try thanks
What if you have two pair of identical speakers stacked one on another so they can sort of create a line source?
And you give them both the same amount of power and the same signal.
Bad idea, here's why:
ua-cam.com/video/r84ynSuFt6g/v-deo.html
Great explanation as always... (off-topic) Could you please debunk the myth of audiophile "feet" for electronics? Some audiophile magazines claimed the isolation feet under the amps or dacs could change the soundstage, the bass response, or the details of their music! then they go on reviewing some of these feet claiming this has better midrange this has better depth in soundstage, and of course the best rating were the most expensive ones (500$).
Some capacitors also exhibit an electrical response when stressed physically. This response can be significant. This response is called the "microphonic effect" because the frequency of the response is often in the audible range.
How would you do the wiring in case I wanted to try it????
I have 2 pairs but I don't play them at the same time.
sir,are you on discord?i like to post a pic of my system there
absolutely right ✅.
this is a bit unrelated but, I have an mp3 stereo music file that I want to play outputted to two separate (L & R) speakers. I'm using a phone to play the file. Output via mini plug adapter chord that converts to two RCA outputs (L & R, red & white). As I approach the back of each speaker I notice each has two RCA inputs (L & R, red & white) 🤔. Is it OK to just plug each of the two cables to its corresponding color on each speaker?
..if You want to place undue loads on Your amp..
I always wondered why my Denon AVR has a setting for front speakers A and front speakers B.
is that a DENON AVR 5700 by chance? how do you even switch to B speakers? I could never figure it out.
what of you run 4 of the exact same speaker, 2 speakers on one side and 2 speakers on the opposing side?
No!
What about running 2 pairs but disconnecting one set of tweeters? Is it mostly the comb filtering for the high frequencies?
Bad idea all around. You will mess up the tonal balance that way. Use your 2nd pair for surrounds with an AV receiver that has an upmixer.
Not sure my friend, possibly. I run HDI3600 (per your other video) with some B&W CM10s , there is a small amount of distance between them, both running from the same preamp, 2 identical amps driving each pair - 2 left, 2 right, and I find they compliment each other very nicely. The HDI add to the LF, CM10 to details. I'd say having both is a net improvement from a subjective standpoint.
Just get a surround processor and turn them into discrete channels. Why ruin the sound of good speakers with comb filtering playing the same content through them?
@@Audioholics So I finally had a look in the cabinet of the 3600s - not bad, I've seen worse. Mid-grade wire, but soldered directly to terminals, somewhat disappointing to see drivers made overseas, also disappointing unbranded electrolytics on the wooders and mid-woofer, no-name MET film on tweeters, look low cost, and average cement resistors - They really could have used metal oxide stock. 8 caps total per speaker across 2 crossover boards - HF/LF. Inductors are mid-grade, but slightly better with slightly thicker gauge, better than average. I ran some cost estimates to replace with some mid-range Mundorf stuff, came to $600--700 for the pair. Thinking of maybe doing this to the 3600 later this year. Others use Mundorf stock, that says something..
@@Audioholics You know what my friend, comb filtering - I'm looking at really disappointing parts in the entire crossover network. For the price they list them at for the parts used, the more I look at it, the easier it is to get pretty disappointed. I'll be ordering the Mundorf EVOs and wire wound resistors to replace their bargain basement electrolytics and sand cast mix.. Having a closer look at the internal wiring, it's also pretty sad. No friend, bigger considerations than a little theoretical sound clash on a chart/graph.
What about bookshelves on top of each other?
Why is it acceptable in pro audio to do this?
What if they are spaced apart like 3 to 4ft?
If what you say is true, any speaker with more than one cone will sound poor, because they will cancel each other.
That's not the same thing. Multi driver speakers use crossover networks to bandwidth limit drivers. At low F with multiple bass drivers spaced closely together, comb filtering is not a problem. This is much different than running 2 full range speakers playing the same signal spaced further apart than the wavelengths they are producing in common.
This gets to something I've wondered about before, what about running 3 speakers for stereo sound, a L C R setup. Instead of a phantom center, have a real center channel. Thoughts on that?
You can do that....3 channel theater setting. It's fun to try new things.
I have a 5.1 setup but when I listen to music I always find it sounds better with the centre channel turned off - phantom sounds better to me. Discreet centre is too easy to locate for me, whereas phantom centre is strong but more integrated withing the soundstage.
@@1stroudm Same here
Very informative !
what about two center speakers?
You get lobing no matter what you do. A center channel causes lobing, a subwoofer crossing over to the main L & R fronts causes lobing, surround channels cause lobing. The biggest issue for most people isn't the type of lobing detected in a perfect test room, it's what's happening in YOUR room. For the most part, reflections will be the big problem. USE TWO SETS OF SPEAKERS IF YOU WANT TO and don't worry about lobing. I've done it several times. If you have the ability to vary the loudness and equalization for each pair, you can play to their strengths. You might be surprised at how much you can approach what sounds like a near field listening experience. Mostly though, IT'S JUST FUN, and you could be very happily surprised.
Each to his own and I speak as I find. This is my experience.
I’m a 2 channel man. I’m not really into home theatre. A while ago I decided to dabble into the realm of biamping. Using a preamp with 2 balanced outputs running simultaneously. Driving 2 sets of monoblocks Fromm 2 different manufacturers, but with the same power rating and same DB gain. I ignored those that advised that to biamp sšuccessfully, you need to employ active crossovers. The result was uninspiring! So, I purchased a 2nd pair of speakers. Identical to my existing floor standers. I stacked them to form a column a ray. I’d previously read up on the pros and cons. Cone filtering, phase cancellation anomalies Etc. But, I thought I’d try it. My towers are 8 inches wide, 19 inches deep and 53 inches high. The only dimension that changed is the height. They’re now 106 inches high!
I have the luxury of having the ability to swap quickly, smoothly and seamlessly between:- both sets playing simultaneously, or having either of the sets playing alone. I’ve spent hours upon hours of attentive listening and switching between options and have concluded that running both sets simultaneously, gives the most pleasing results. I am mindful that when both sets are running simultaneously, at my listening position about 11 feet away, there is roughly a 6 db gain, for which I try and compensate.
Maybe, just maybe, it may be my imagination, but I think when both sets are playing together, the high frequency dispersion becomes slightly more directional, narrower! I’d be interested in your comments.
Both sets were NOT playing simultaneously, and we never advocate for that. This was set up as an AB comparison as best as possible given the size of the speakers. RTJ won in bass, but the RBH were more airy and spacious sounding.
@@Audioholics I think you missed my point. I have 2 sets of identical speakers, stacked in a column array driven by 2 sets of monoblocks and 1 preamp. Whichever combination I try, playing both sets simultaneously gives the most pleasing result, even compensating for the 6db gain. Though I think it fractionally narrows the high frequency dispersion. I was asking for your thoughts.
Wise advise. Thanks.
Stupid question that I get laughed at often. Is there a way to add a sound equalizer to an EARC connection to my AVR? The EQ on my Sony DT1080 sucks. I want to be able to tweak the sound per movie, TV, and music.
All new Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers are in the USA now and they are some of the very best speakers to EVER come on the world market ! They are really in a Class of it's Own....
I was thinking of running two pairs (two Lefts + two Rights) of DCM TimeFrame TF-700 speakers (each speaker is 8 Ohms) wired in Parallel so that my amp can see a 4 Ohms load on each channel, thus doubling the power output (amp output is 150 wpc @ 8 Ohms / 300 wpc @ 4 Ohms).
I have a pair of 1976 Celestion 15's and a pair of Elac b5.2's. Celestion's are placed on the floor and Elac's are placed on top of the Celestion's. I'm not happy with the sound of those speakers separately, but, when I play them together, I'am. I'm sure I'm not having an ideal representation, but I like the sound they produce together: Celestion's help with the bass, Elac's with the mids and treble. I still think I want a bit more treble, but I like it. Thanks for your video. Very informative.
I just got a Denon 6700h. I have 2 Svs pb 2000 pro. I have tried everything. Only subwoofer 1 works on receiver. I have swapped cables and subs. Only get signal on sub 1 input. Have ran through setup 3 times, unplugged and plugged everything in. I am about to go insane and return the receiver. Pretty disappointing for a $3300 product. Both subs work when I daisy chain them but I want both subs plugged directly into receiver. Any ideas on what to do besides return receiver?
Not needed comb effect turns into roar. In small home room the sound field needs point source , an accurate sound field need less drivers ,and I use a ribbon tweeter, subwoofer and use duo 2 in open baffle on top top and 8in carbon fiber woofer 70hz and cut the 1k to 5k hz and it sounds great, my subs are 70hz down. Omg the duodayton18s play the room and do not give listener fatigue. I dont build anymore 50 year experience in car an home an clubs. Retired and blind crippled but not crazy, tinnitus and 13,000hz audible to me .
❤ your comments
Gene, I’d like to see you review the Halo Spring 3 KTE and or the Halo May KTE. These are R2R DACs and your review would be worth hearing. I expect honest and open reviewing from you. Some may not agree, but it will be fact based. The truth isn’t guaranteed to be pretty.
A lot of BS in comb filtering. Eric at Tekton destroys that theory. Saying that I would never run a pair of stereo speakers side by side. Early on in the 90’s when center channels were really small next to a projector screen, I used 2 & 3 center speakers with lots of experimentation. And for the most part, I got really good results that better filled my 130” screen.
I run 3 pairs and a small sub. Two pair of floor speakers run through the receiver's 2 zone-control pre-outs and have their own dedicated amplifiers with independent tone controls. They are strategically placed in a 270 degree arc from the front to rear corners to maximize and balance sound distribution in the room. I also have 2 high-end bookshelf speakers that are placed in the rear bookshelf at listening level height, which run from the receiver's output, and drives them nicely. These fill in the gap between the rear floor speakers and balances out the sound in the room. I never play music very loud, just at a reasonable listening volume. The effect is extraordinary. Everyone who hears it is stunned at how clear and balanced the dynamics work to influence the music. It took a good number of combinations of receiver, speakers, and amplifiers to get it just right, but it's literally the best-sounding ensemble that I've ever cobbled together. I don't think I could ever intentionally go back to a one-speaker setup after experiencing this.
I was an authorized Hi-Fi audio tech I worked at a high-end store in the late seventies I bought a pair of JBL L150s and then a pair of JBL 4311s. I currently listen to a Marantz receiver although I've got Phase Linear and SAE systems too normally I just listen to the 4311s they're at perfect listening height sitting on top of the l150s when I get pissed off I'll turn on the l150s too
This is interesting, because I have two sets, a medium sized set of floor standers (made myself) and a set of Yamaha bookshelf speakers. When I run them together with my Rotal A11, sure there is a fuller sound, but there is also a definite quality drop in imaging, both with depth and channel separation. Even more peculiar, when I run both, there is a definite shift of sound to the left channel at my 'normal' listening position. Moving my head closer changes and even eliminates that, but there are some bad sonic aberrations happening with the mix of the 4 total speakers and my room acoustics.
Hi Gene, I have a question. My old Denon AVR 2808CI one channel shorted, so I get the AVR 4308CI. It supposed to be better than the old one. But I could not get the sound come out right, seem to be only high frequency come out, the sound is not as warm as I used to heard out of my old receiver. What is going on? can you help
Very true. Just follow the path of a voice or instrument all the lonng way down to your listening room - then your setup, YOUR room, YOUR hearing, YOUR taste - it's literally indefinite. Adding another pair of speakers to the pair you already have most likely will NOT better the experience. Better to put the money into romm treatment.