You are much more patient with people who don’t do their research before commenting on things let alone buying them. I researched the heck out of my first ev, a PHEV, because I had some range anxiety so I started with a PHEV first. After 3 years of very happy driving I moved up to a full EV, installed a level 2 charger and would never go back. I get frustrated with people who assume they know but really don’t know what they’ve doing. Gold star for you ⭐️
Here's some supporting evidence. We have a 2014 Leaf in Maine, where winter is real. We keep the garage heated to 60℉, and we see less range loss than before when we stored it outside. Short trips with the heater are no problem. In a 10 year old BEV we are still seeing mid-80s on the guess-o-meter
With my Ioniq 6, while it has preconditioning available, I do not use it. I discovered that it was killing my overall efficiency, so I quit using it. Yes, it takes a little longer to charge, but it charges so quickly anyway, that it doesn’t bother me to wait a few extra minutes. My 2021 Bolt OTOH, is another story entirely : Because of its dismal fast-charging speeds, it has now been largely relegated to in-town driving and distances that will not require a charging session while on the road.
Excellent comment! I also own an Ioniq 6 and battery preconditioning is not always the best strategy. It only serves well when you plan to charge on a higher performance fast charger (over 150KW). Otherwise you may heat up your battery for not much gain in charging time and therefore spend unnecessarily.
@@stevewausa Yes, I understand that… I use cabin preconditioning all the time to extend my range before driving. I do not, however, use battery preconditioning since it chews into my overall on the road efficiency.
@@andreverville9492 I live in Canada now and travel through Quebec and New Brunswick a lot. I use the 100 KW(400v) chargers quite often because they, not only are dirt cheap but, allow me time to get out and stretch, get a coffee, use the bathroom, etc. without needing to rush my charging stop. When I charge on a 50kw or 100kw charger there is really not any advantage to preconditioning anyway, as you mentioned. Even though battery preconditioning gives me really consistent and fast charging speeds on higher speed 800v chargers, I am not wiling to give up my ultimate efficiency, which at this point into my ownership (17 months), is 14.4kwh/100km (4.3mi/kwh).
I drive my 2020 Bolt about 15 miles to go shopping in upstate NY - I don't even bother heating the cabin because, like most folks in winter, I'm dressed for the cold already and the seat heater and steering wheel heater provide more than enough heat for this short journey. This is not a "macho" thing, just practical, even my fastest heating ICE vehicle takes 5+ minutes of driving to warm up the cabin enough to take off my hat and the steering wheel is still cold. Thanks for explaining for the newbies 👍
When we had the Bolt I was fine recharging with the wall outlet for about the first 5 weeks because I also had the typical short commute of about 26 miles round trip. Got the EVSE because of needing to park outside often in Chicago winter and yes kept it plugged in for the preconditioning. It was wonderful, having spent decades getting into an ice-cold ICE car in the morning. and it barely producing heat before I was parking it again. Of course most cars now have remote start but then it sits out there burning gasoline at 0 MPG just to be more comfortable.
As the owner of a 2018 BMW i3S Rex, I have to say that I have been very impressed with the battery management system, and one of my very favorite features is the cabin pre-condictioning. Especially with the weather we've been experiencing lately here in Oregon, I feel so fancy sliding into a nice warm car on my way to work. I didn't realize just how "accustomed" I had become to this feature until last week, when I had to borrow an old Volvo v70 while my beloved Millennium Penguin was in the shop getting new shoes for the winter. Where was I going with this...? Oh yes, being that the car only has a 33kw battery, plugging in to the granny lead each night is plenty sufficient to keep it topped up and my standard practice especially in the winter. I have noticed virtually zero degredation in the the time I have owned it. Unrelated note: I just received a letter from BMW saying that they are extending the factory warranty on the battery's thermal management and sensor system to 15 years/150k miles.
My father (80+ yrs old) loves his I3, which he got used at an opportune time a few years ago. No noticeable battery degradation either. Its a great little commuter car.
Nicky This is such important information. It needs to be said over and over again. At least EVERY year... I love the information. I've been driving on electric only now for 6 yrs. But we now have a second electric car in our family. So we Need another 220v chargestation installed at our house. Hope my car warms on the granny lead... on 120v power... that's all I have right now...
120V should be enough to keep things happy at least, it will, once the battery is full. You won't be able to precondition exclusively on 120V power without taking something out of the battery pack, but something is better than NOTHING ;) - Nikki.
@@transportevolved My 2011 Leaf happily pre-conditioned at -20C on 120V. It pre-heated for 2 hours, leading to parasitic losses and ice on the windshield, but I am pretty sure I got a full battery.
Good information. If I was a long distance commuter and parking my EV outdoors in subfreezing temperatures every night I would probably keep it plugged in. For most EV owners who drive less than 30 miles a day, optimum range every day is not a pressing concern.
My 1999 2 door explorer goes from about 280 miles of range in the summer to 220 in winter, pre conditioning includes about five to ten minutes of running to warm it up.😊 I can’t yet justify the expense of replacing it for an electric vehicle since I only commute about 85 miles per week. And my father gave it to me so it’s got some sentimental value.
Another (related) advantage of an EV: before you depart and you want to make your car comfy warm in winter (or comfy cool in summer), you can do this while the car is still inside the garage. No need to worry about carbon monoxide poisoning!
A couple weeks ago, when my home lost power, I spent a couple of evenings sitting in car for heat. And, since the car was an EV, I could do it in enclosed garage, with no carbon monoxide. Each hour of eat used only about 2 or 3% of the battery.
I am 3.5yrs on to my Ioniq5 ownership and am very happy with its charging speeds, efficiency and range during the cold - temp winters here in Scotland. What I do wish however is that the defrost/preheat cabin mode covered the windscreen jets and the tubing etc sadly with no engine heating up under the bonnet I can go a full day without them defrosting, even when using crazy high - temp screen wash.
Thanks for the reminder. I just put my car under cover and plugged in! I agree that the need to set a charger as a destination to enable preconditioning is a real PAIN. I quite often like to set destinations based on actual map positions to ensure I enter a car park the right way or whatever reason... and because I haven't selected a charger it won't precondition (this is a 2024 Kona EV). I'm not even sure there's a way to trigger it manually - I've not found one yet. The ideal solution for me would be to have it as a navigation option. The only times I usually do a lot of fast charging are long road trips, where almost every destination means a charge stop anyway, so a default setting of "precondition regardless" would be extremely handy. Probably this is something they could fix with an OTA update...
I just got a used Nissan Ariya and because I don’t drive a lot I’ve been plugging in maybe once a week in my garage. But with the bitter cold temps, I’m going to switch to pre-conditioning the cabin and ABC procedures.
@@Natalie.D I’ve had an Ariya for a year (new), and you should know the Climate On remote control and schedule will not run the seat heater or wheel heater. I suspect it’s because they use a resistive load vs the heat pump, which draws way more power, and thus Nissan forcibly disabled it. Good for energy efficiency, but terrible on your bottom!
@ yes I figured that out plus I’m kinda angry that there isn’t a stand alone switch for the heated seats or steering wheel. I want to turn it on immediately not go into 3 screens to get to it.
I live in central BC and I lose about 10-15% range in winter. I just charge the battery that much more. So instead of 80% I charge to 90% or adjust my range accordingly. I love my EV.
08:05 Is that really correct? Yes, actively heating or cooling the car takes energy. but turning heating off will take zero energy when passively cooling the cabin. The energy consumption at a certain temperature is a factor of the temperature difference inside vs outside, and the insulation between the two. Thus preconditioning the car (maybe even to a bit toasty temperature), and then driving without any heating for a short trip uses the least of battery charge. If you need to engage heating again during the drive, the extra burst of consumption is anyhow less than what would have been spent on keeping a constant temperature up to that point - even if the car was preconditioned.
Yeah I think the 4th power term in the Stefan-Boltzmann law alone makes that assertion incorrect. I am neglecting increased resistance from a cold battery: but I doubt that increases nearly as quickly.
I believe you are right. Funny thing though, there have been several "winter EV habits" videos of late, and several of them have made this same erroneous point. I have even had home heating & cooling technicians tell me something similar about running the furnace or A/C in the house. All of these completely miss the first order effect that a higher temperature differential has on heat transfer. The further your conditioned space's temperature is from the unconditioned space around it, the faster heat will move from one space to the other, increasing the energy demand to keep the temperature constant. That said, there might be some kernels of truth to the question. For one, in heat pump heating systems, there is usually a backup source of heat, such as a gas furnace or electric heating elements, and if the difference between the current temperature and the thermostat set temperature is too large, the system may switch over to the much less efficient heating mode. This happens both in my house and my EVs. Another effect, I am purely speculating on this particular point, might be that a heat pump could be designed in such a way that it runs more efficiently, with a higher COP, when it is having to move heat more slowly. So keeping the heat pump going more continuously, by maintaining a narrow temperature range over time rather than letting the temperature swing back and forth, might be more efficient? That one I definitely don't know much about. Of course, all of this assumes one will eventually want to bring the temperature back to the original comfortable set point. In a scenario like what you describe, where the car is preconditioned and then can be driven without any climate control operation at all, all the way to the destination, then obviously the drain on the battery is _much_ less than if one uses the battery to provide the energy during the drive. It's probably more efficient energy wise too, at least for a garaged car, because even an unconditioned garage is likely to have a more moderate temperature than whatever's going on outside, making it easier/more efficient for the climate control to get the cabin to the desired temperature.
@@harvey66616 I think the only case where continuous heating is more efficient, is if the EV is one of those where engine heat can be recovered AND that this heat is mostly sufficient to maintain the cabin temperature. Cabin heating would then (mostly) solely be from this waste heat, that otherwise would be expelled to the surroundings - hence no additional battery consumption. But that would not be really winter conditions - more like a chilly autumn day. In freezing temperatures, the waste heat from motor efficiency loss is just not enough, and the bulk energy for cabin conditioning would have to come from the battery - often amplified by a heat pump.
Kyle Conner in his Out of Spec Reviews podcast has a video, titled. "My Top 10 Problems With Electric Cars! Degradation, Winter Range, Service / Repair, Towing, & More" at the 28 minute mark and 10 second mark on Winter Range. Provides technical details. Winter range will go down in the winter resulting in frequent charging. Chevy Bolt has a big drop off in EV range with an estimated -32% decrease according to InsideEV website in cold weather environment. EV drop offs in cold winter varies with EV model per InsideEV website.
If you have charging access at home then I think that it makes sense to keep your car plugged in at all times anyway. When I do finally get an EV, this is what I plan on doing, probably with the charge limit set to 60% unless I have a big day or trip planned. Surely this would be best for preconditioning your cabin, winter or summer. Optimizing EV ownership is a paradigm shift from our gas guzzlers, but really only a small one, unless you are particularly resistant to change.
@@EbenBransome _"The handbook on my Honda says charge to 100%. 80% is for when fast charging away from home."_ -- when in doubt, follow the user manual. It is possible that the Honda you're driving, the battery is overprovisioned, so that "100%" charge is really something like 90%. Because of the well-known improvement in battery lifetime when it is not fully charged regularly, some (most?) manufacturers have been reserving battery capacity at the bottom and top end, making it unavailable to the owner so that the battery is always charged in a healthier manner, even when the owner always charges to 100%. In such cases, it might even be preferable to always charge to "100%". That said, the data on battery longevity shows clear benefits to a) only charging to a reduced level, and b) charging with as small an interval as is feasible. I.e. it's better to charge every day, adding e.g. 20% each day, than to charge every other day, adding 40% with each charge session. As far as the "80% is for when fast charging", this is more about practicality than battery life, since the car still will automatically reduce charging speed during fast charging as you get closer to 100%. When trying to make time on a road trip, it is usually more efficient _time-wise_ to only fast charge to 80%, at which point the charging speed starts to go down dramatically, and wind up having to charge a little more frequently. Even there, I keep the fast charge limit set to 100%. If I am at the car and ready to leave when it reaches 80%, I'm going to notice that and will end the session and get on my way. On the other hand, if I'd gone to grab a burger or something and the car reaches 80% without me, I'm not leaving right then anyway and so it makes more sense to let the car just keep charging as much as it's willing to, even if that's at a much slower charging speed. The upshot of all this is that while car dealers and even car owner manuals are often recommending home charging limits set to 100% and fast charging limits set to 80%, IMHO this is exactly backwards. 80% is plenty for my daily driving, and is better for battery lifetime even if the battery does have some capacity held in reserve, and 100% is always more appropriate if I'm using a fast charging station; even though I might often end a session well before the battery gets to 100%, I don't want the session ending any earlier than it has to if I'm not quite ready to get back on the road yet.
Careful comparing battery capacity with fuel energy potential. I’ve made the same comparison and got shouted down with how stupid that is, lol (YOU CAN’T COMPARE BTUs WITH KWH RAH RAH RAH). As much as I hear doom and gloom over range loss of EVs in the winter, I’m still not convinced it was a bad choice for me. As someone in Texas and the risks of the grid failing (as it did a few years ago) due to…well…_gestures vaguely_… I mostly keep my car topped up in case of emergency these days. And I just don’t have an issue with the range loss overall. I mean, it happens and it’s noticed, but it’s no big deal.
Aren't you worried about battery degradation, keeping topped off? How far would you have to go in a power outage, is there power where you're going, are the chargers where you're going?
@@rp9674 Can't speak for the other guy: but I only charge to 80% in the summer months. Cold temperatures slow battery degradation due to a full charge.
@@rp9674 when I’m not traveling far I will limit charge to 80% or 90% depending on time of year. As recent reporting is showing, battery degradation is nowhere near what people thought it would be in EVs, also.
ICE cars get about 15% less range at 20°F than at 70°F. And my car loses about 30-40 miles of range at 100°F plus due to heavy AC use (I live in the desert)
Thank you so much for this video. After years of research I finally took the plunge and bought my first EV. I’m super happy with it but going into winter for the first time, this info is timely. I’d also be curious on your thoughts about rust protection. I’ve heard conflicting things as to whether or not one can/should undercoat or oil spray an EV. I suspect the answer there is that such procedures are not good on EVs but looking for a trustworthy authoritative opinion. I’ve also been told electronic rust modules are viable alternatives for EVs but again hear some say they work and others say they are a waste of money. Any help navigating this topic would be appreciated.
Overall, EVs should be less prone to rust as there's no heat radiated from the exhaust to knacker the paint near it. You'll still get the same rust in the wheelarches, sills etc. What I've read is that coatings that set hard are shit and will grow rust under the coating. Some people appear to have had good results with lanolin based coatings e.g. ua-cam.com/video/QqbnNNZRF-c/v-deo.html
In my elderly EV, trying to heat up the windscreen automatically engages the A/C; which is great at first, as it reduces fogging; but once the cabin is reasonably warm, the A/C isnt really needed, and turning it off - in ICE OR EV cars - will improve efficiency, especially in smaller ICE engines or smaller battery pack EVs. Using all the tricks you mention - using seat and steering wheel heaters, and turning off A/C when it isnt needed, my winter range is only about 10% down on summer range - although the GOM remains pretty pessimistic in colder weather, and claims a near 20% drop. My early morning school run is 12.8 miles these days, but the pessimistic GOM range only drops by about 4 miles, and a charge to charge comparison shows me exceeding the claimed GOM range nearly every time.
@@transportevolved No, I have a 2016 Soul EV; sadly, too few ever sold for any sort of community modding scene to have evolved; not even a range extender pack. I look at the Leaf community modding scene with some envy; but my lower back is a jigsaw, so I need the higher seating position, otherwise I would have bought a Leaf; it was the first EV I had a sit in, a really nice car, but I struggled to get in and out without pain.
I've not been paying attention to this with our 2024 Flash model mostly because we live in a moderate coastal climate. However, I wondered if Simone keeping it plugged in more would be beneficial this first winter with it.
Dear Nikki: Enjoyed the presentation: useful facts delivered in a calm and clear way. Thanks! That said, I am a bit confused. At about 9:30 into the presentation, you mention that one can see occasional spikes in energy use while the car is plugged in but not running, in cold weather, these to heat the main battery. Then, at about 10:58, you say that the Bolt does not precondition the battery. I have a 2023 Bolt 2LTEV. I charge with an EVSE that delivers live, and recorded, energy readouts to my mobile phone, via blue tooth. So, if my Bolt is off, if cabin preconditioning is not on, and if the '23 Bolt has no battery conditioning, what are these "spikes" I see repeated now that the weather is cold at night? What are they servicing if not the main battery? All the best, P.Q.
There is one small problem with this and that is the connection signal to the evse is from the 12-volt DC lead acid battery under the hood. The battery charger only actuates when the car is on or the car is actively charging. What this means is while the cord is left plugged in that 12-volt signal is using a quarter of an amp or whatever continuously to keep the signal active to the evse. This overtime about a week will drain down your lead acid battery and as we all know, lead acid batteries hate being drained down. It gives them a very short lifespan. What this means is leaving the car plugged in is going to kill your 12 volt battery under the hood even faster
I think a software update fixed that for my leaf. (I think I caught it charging the 12V battery while plugged into an inoperative charger). Hard to tell because mine is one of the Early SL models with the solar trickle charger.
_"The battery charger only actuates when the car is on or the car is actively charging"_ -- maybe, maybe not. It really depends on the car. There is a wide range of implementations out there, and impossible to generalize. My 2013 LEAF would only ever charge the 12V battery if the car was being driven. I managed to run the 12V battery all the way down when I foolishly left the car plugged in while I was on a multi-week trip, because I assumed keeping it plugged in was the best for the car. Turns out, the car would turn on each day, discover the high voltage battery was already topped up, and then turn off again. Each time the car turned itself on for the charging schedule, it would cost a fair amount of 12V battery power to run the computers, charging sensors, etc. which eventually killed the battery. Turned out, the owners manual for the car did in fact tell owners to leave the car unplugged if not driving it daily. Stupid design, but at least they warned the owners. My Model S doesn't give me any feedback about when it's charging the battery so I don't know exactly what it's strategy is. However, it does fine left plugged in, and I've never seen the 12V battery dead, so I surmise it takes a more hands-on approach with monitoring the 12V battery voltage and charging it as needed. My EV6 has a light on the dashboard that turns on when it's charging the 12V battery. I suspect this is mainly there as a safety feature so that mechanics approaching the car to work on it can tell when the HV battery is engaged and use extra care. But it also means I get to see when the 12V battery is being topped up, if I happen to be around the car. I've never seen the light come on while driving (though maybe it's disabled in that case, since it's already obvious the HV battery is engaged), but I have seen it on both when the car is plugged in and when it's not, so I know that that car will charge the 12V battery any time it needs to be topped up, regardless of what other conditions or configuration the car is in at the moment.
Great explanation of cold temps. For us that live in hot places at what high temp does battery performance decline? Car tries to cool the battery? And does not charge fast?
Some of this applies to ICE vehicles too. I'm sure that you're aware that engine block heaters are a thing, right? I remember my dad plugging in our vehicles at night whenever it started getting really cold out.
Be Aware don’t precondition for SHORT trips!! My Ford app will let you schedule a precondition,for a departure time, it’s starts 45 minutes ahead. On a 32Amp charger this costs 6kW for my 10kW commute. That’s 40% additional energy! If your energy were from Coal, that might be dirtier than driving ICE. I will charge the battery before leaving to warm the battery and condition the cabin remotely before I get in. This is much cheaper and cleaner. For long trips preconditioning should be worth the investment.
How does pre-conditioning the battery and cabin work while plugged in when you are outside of scheduled charging hours? Does the scheduled charging period override / prevent the EV from drawing power from the charging station?
EVSE will have some maximum power capacity, and of course L2 chargers are well below the maximum charging capacity of the car in all cases, and so the at-home EVSE power rating is going to be the limiting factor. If preconditioning is active while charging the car, the car will still be able to charge the battery, but at a reduced rate to the extent that the preconditioning is taking power from what's available from the EVSE. For example, if you have a 9.6 kW (40A) EVSE, but the preconditioning is using 2 kW of power, the battery will only charge at 7.6 kW. But you'll still be able to charge.
A poster in Norway was his tricks is leave his car plugged in at trickle charge level to keep the battery warm in the winter- the EV version of a block heater. I can't tear this in the Sonoran desert but if you are in cold climate, give a test
EVs don't "trickle charge". Some, if left plugged in, will run the battery's thermal management to keep the battery warm, but that isn't trickle charging. It's literally just pulling whatever energy from the utility is needed to maintain a specific temperature. Oh, and this exact point was in fact addressed in the video. I guess you missed that part?
2013 chevy volt, ev range in the summer, 50-55 miles ev range in the winter (below 32F/0C) 45-50 miles. epa range 38 miles lol. people who dont know about preconditioning.... idk. phev starts to look pretty much like a no compromise more and more. i mean my insurance is 21$/mo, and the car paid for itself with fuel savings after 18 months of driving (lots of driving, even more charging). name a car that can ever hope to break even. chevy volt is one of the only electric cars that has increased in value during the last 3 years since covid. bought mine used for 6k right out of warranty at 100k miles, put another 45k miles on it, now its apparently worth 9k somehow. the no compromise aspect just keeps getting more and more meaning. only thing is my state passed a room temp iq double registartion fee of 300$/yr on the volt accidentally.... montana llc here i come.
??? Is Pre-conditiong helpful when it's 45 to 55 degrees outdoors, I thought this is something really only needed when it's really cold like under 20 degrees in the USA ? for Level 3 DCFC, (as I understand it, it has zeo use case when it comes to level 2 charging at your residence overnight as well)
_"Is Pre-conditiong helpful when it's 45 to 55 degrees outdoors"_ -- depends on what you're talking about. The word "preconditioning" has been used in the EV community to describe two completely different things: prepare the battery for charging by heating or cooling it, and conditioning the cabin temperature before departing on a trip, so the car's climate control doesn't have to work as hard once underway. You are right that in the battery-related usage, it doesn't matter for L2 charging, and has limited use for DCFC unless the outside temperature is well outside the battery's "happy" range. For preconditioning the car's cabin, it's of course more useful the hotter or colder it is outside, but it can always help at least a little.
@@harvey66616 Well my focus is more on trying to appreciate those models that have the heat pump I guess. I appreciate you teaching me the difference in how the term pre-conditioning get's used. Your right, now that I think about it, because most EV's less than 5 years old offer pre-conditioning as an option, but not all of them come standard with a heat pump. I'm specifically confused about the ability for level 2 charging to occur according to manufacturer's specification when charging outdoors. Like many, I don't have an insulated garage, and my fear is that when you see for example in the case of tthe 2022 Hyandai IONIQ 5 SE TRIM that (does not have the heat pump as standard, just how much will this impact and slow down the rated charging speed which is claimed to be 7 hours and 10 minutes from 10 % to 80%. I worry this is largely false advertising for those who have to charge outdoors when overnight charging conditions are say 40 to 50 degrees: What do you think? (this is the situation for much of the SouthWest. from December to February)
@@flolou8496 My first thought is, with a 77.1 kWh battery, Ioniq 5 owners are almost _never_ charging 10% to 80%. I own an EV6 (Kia's option that is essentially the same as the Ioniq 5), and I rarely use more than 25-30% of the battery in any given day. That said, cabin preconditioning obviously will reduce charging speed somewhat, because an at-home L2 EVSE can only give so much power, and preconditioning operation will take some of that power. But I doubt it will be significant. For one, preconditioning doesn't take place during the entire charging session. It's something that is usually scheduled just before departure. There's a good chance the battery is already fully charged by this time. For another, it's not likely to use enough power to inconvenience the owner. I don't have documentation of specific numbers, but I doubt a resistive heater is pulling more than 2 kW, and a heat pump is generally going to be much less, around 0.5 kW maybe. There's no reason anyone would be running 2 kW of resistive heating for an entire charging session, but even if they did, a 9.6 kW EVSE (40A, which is the largest plug-in EVSE you will find in the US) still has 7.6 kW left over for battery charging, which is only 7 hours of charging a 77.1 kWh battery from 10% to 80%. Given an 8 hour workday, even if there's an hour commute on each end, this hypothetical person charging has 14 hours to replenish whatever energy they used that day. Even going from 10% to 80%, and even if one is inexplicably operating the climate control for the car the entire time, that's still plenty of time to charge the battery. (And I reiterate, that scenario just never actually happens.)
@@harvey66616 Thanks for your comment, but as I contemplate Level 2 charging issues, I feel left in the dark with how useful it is to have a model with a heat pump or not. I feel it's very deceptive for manufacturer's to give these specifications for charging speeds say from 10% to 80% full in as little as 7 hours and 10 minutes in the case of the IONIQ 5 from the 2022 through 2023 model years, when that specification is given without any warning to consumers those results could vary widely based on the temperatures outside the car, (ie in a closed insulated garage, or outdoors in your driveway for millions of people who don't have a garage) As I understand it, the heat pump on models that have this, has no direct influence on Level 2 charging, only level 3 charging, correct?
Does battery pre-conditioning consume much energy prior to fast charging? Especially if battery power is low. Or stuck in traffic. Or a line-up to charge.
It does. Enough so that at least for some cars there's a minimum battery level below which battery preconditioning is disabled. The exact amount of energy depends on how far away from optimal temperature the battery is when preconditioning. Bjorn Nyland's channel includes _lots_ of range tests where he uses the ODBII reader on his phone to show various energy parameters, including battery temp and power draw, and you can get a pretty good idea of how different cars behave watching those videos and seeing what happens to the numbers when he's approaching a charging station and battery preconditioning is happening.
@@theairstig9164 _"About 3-4 kw. It varies between brands. MG4 claims 7kw"_ -- the instantaneous power draw isn't very useful information though. A car using 7 kW to precondition the battery for 10 minutes is going to use the same amount of energy as on that uses 3.5 kW for 20 minutes. In either case, assuming a car that gets around 3 miles/kWh, you're going to use about 1 kWh of energy, and so lose about 3 miles of range to the preconditioning. As long as one isn't cutting things too close getting to the charging station, that amount of range lose shouldn't be a big problem.
I drive a 2010 wheego whip with 5 speed manual transmission ,use's 16 6 volt deep[ cycle batteries 65 mph with 60 miles range been driving for 8 years even in -20 deg fahrenheit lead acid batteries are 100% recyclable. have to admit l car is quite nimble car is slightly modified
Nope. More oxygen is only helpful if you use it to burn more gas. That can give you more _power_ for a given volume of air pulled in by the engine, but does nothing for efficiency. In fact, since the full throttle power available is higher in the winter, depending on how you drive you might actually find your efficiency goes _down_ because you're accelerating the car faster than in warmer weather.
IMO, ICE vehicles make more sense in the winter than EVs in a cold weather environment if you live in a flat, in urban city environment and don’t have time to wait at public EV chargers, especially if you have 2 jobs. Per Kyle Conner from last winter, EV cold weather performance needs to improve. We are still in the early stages of EVs. Remember it took 16 years of EV production in the USA to carve out 1.7% of the total registered light duty vehicles in the USA whereas it took 22 years of hybrid (HE and PHEV) production to carve out 3%. In the USA, EVs is still a niche market. Mainstream car buyers will not accept EV compromises during winter conditions. A lot has to be done to move the needle forward.
Don't forget the EV disaster last winter in Chicago. People love to compare Norway to Chicago. There is no comparison. Chicago is a densely populated urban environment versus Norway. The Chicago urban agglomeration, according to the United Nations World Urbanization Prospects report (2023 revision), lists a population of 8,937,000. Norway's population is 5.52M and is spread over larger area than Chicago. This means that MORE EV owners in Chicago area don't have access to home/overnight charging in Chicago area than Norway.
why Why WHY CANT THEY COME WITH A DIESEL HEATER or someone come up with a system to install one, I'd buy that in a minute. I'm driving around with my windows cracked just to keep my windows defoged cause I dont want to run my heater. With a diesel heater I'd bet it would use less than a couple gallons a year.
@@edolson1698 would be a fairly simple straight forward install , it'd burn a gallon per 8hours . Maybe keep it in the frunk if the remote control would still work
That is apparently what the new battery-electric busses in Moscow do. Previous electric busses used overhead lines: and had no need for diesel heaters.
The simple answer is that for ordinary driving, it's simply not necessary. A modern EV has enough range that even using energy in the battery for heat, you still have way more energy than you need for a normal driving day. Even on road trips, using the battery for heat means stopping to charge a bit more often, but it's not really that big of a deal. By contrast, a diesel heater would add cost and complexity to the car, plus the hassle of having to periodically visit the gas station to refuel it, plus the need to drain the fuel during the summer to prevent the fuel from going stale. A transit bus is one of the rare cases where a diesel heater does make some amount of sense, simply because a bus has to be on the road 20 hours/day, every day, regardless of the weather, and has to stay exactly on schedule no matter what (meaning, even an extra 5 minute per hour of charging time would mean big delays for passengers). And, in fact, many battery electric buses do use diesel heaters for this very reason. But, for general-purpose consumer vehicles, it's both simpler and cheaper to simply use the battery for heat, even if it means charging more often on a winter road trip.
@ab-tf5fl diesel won't go stail for at least 5 years, it's not like gas . I've got diesel in my barn I bought in 2020 still works fine . No stabilizer. I have a Chinese diesel heater that I use when camping and it takes all of 3 minutes to blow heat and it's a better heat that the car can produce, more comfortable. I didn't get a DC fast charger with my Bolt which ain't all that fast to begin with so every bit counts and when it's cold out they don't charge at full capacity anyway. I don't care about the added cost I want the option of being comfortable, at less give me the option to check the box for the heater don't put em in every car or some sort of aftermarket kit?
The original meaning of work is as it ever was. Just because someone misappropriates a term from another group specifically out of hate doesn't mean the original group isn't using it for the original purpose. - Nikki.
The leaf has terrible battery management, it was good to learn the bolt has terrible battery management as well. Since I am shopping for a modern vehicle. Here in Anchorage Alaska. From my calculations the kWh I spend heating daily to keep my diesel truck engine warm and ready to ignite is more kWh per day than an EV would use to get me to work, soccer, groceries, mail, and pizza and back daily. Why No mention about Tesla and their battery management preconditioning system? Is the Tesla battery poorly managed like the leaf and bolt? We need to know who has the most efficient winter battery thermal management system? In fact it seems you are racist by very carefully excluding the Tesla EV from all of your imaging and script to go along with this dissertation?
@@jamesphillips2285 Tesla did it first, but these days, pretty much every new EV does it, Tesla or not. The current Bolt does not do this because it was designed with 2015-era technology. When the new Bolt enters production next year, I fully expect it will do navigation-based battery preconditioning also.
@@ab-tf5fl I am convinced, but have not yet confirmed, that my Leaf runs the battery heater in "ready" mode until it reaches ~0C. That is only good for about 20kW of charging, as mentioned in the video. Only recently learned it runs the heater at -17C when parked, not -28C like I initially believed.
You have explained winter charging really well here.
You are much more patient with people who don’t do their research before commenting on things let alone buying them.
I researched the heck out of my first ev, a PHEV, because I had some range anxiety so I started with a PHEV first.
After 3 years of very happy driving I moved up to a full EV, installed a level 2 charger and would never go back.
I get frustrated with people who assume they know but really don’t know what they’ve doing.
Gold star for you ⭐️
Go ask Alice how to handle frustration.
Also worth noting that one can precondition an EV in the garage without worrying about fumes in the house.
My barn cats also WANT me to keep the Chevy Volt plugged in!
😁
Here's some supporting evidence. We have a 2014 Leaf in Maine, where winter is real. We keep the garage heated to 60℉, and we see less range loss than before when we stored it outside. Short trips with the heater are no problem. In a 10 year old BEV we are still seeing mid-80s on the guess-o-meter
cyber , now that is sensible.
You are so pleasant to listen to and provide excellent information.
Thanks for posting this. We entering our 4th Oregon winter with our EV. It’s still good to see these reminders. 😊
With my Ioniq 6, while it has preconditioning available, I do not use it. I discovered that it was killing my overall efficiency, so I quit using it. Yes, it takes a little longer to charge, but it charges so quickly anyway, that it doesn’t bother me to wait a few extra minutes. My 2021 Bolt OTOH, is another story entirely : Because of its dismal fast-charging speeds, it has now been largely relegated to in-town driving and distances that will not require a charging session while on the road.
Cabin precondition and battery precondition are different, your Ioniq 6 can do either
Excellent comment! I also own an Ioniq 6 and battery preconditioning is not always the best strategy. It only serves well when you plan to charge on a higher performance fast charger (over 150KW). Otherwise you may heat up your battery for not much gain in charging time and therefore spend unnecessarily.
@@stevewausa Yes, I understand that… I use cabin preconditioning all the time to extend my range before driving. I do not, however, use battery preconditioning since it chews into my overall on the road efficiency.
@@andreverville9492 I live in Canada now and travel through Quebec and New Brunswick a lot. I use the 100 KW(400v) chargers quite often because they, not only are dirt cheap but, allow me time to get out and stretch, get a coffee, use the bathroom, etc. without needing to rush my charging stop. When I charge on a 50kw or 100kw charger there is really not any advantage to preconditioning anyway, as you mentioned. Even though battery preconditioning gives me really consistent and fast charging speeds on higher speed 800v chargers, I am not wiling to give up my ultimate efficiency, which at this point into my ownership (17 months), is 14.4kwh/100km (4.3mi/kwh).
This is really good information! Thanks, Nikki and team.
I drive my 2020 Bolt about 15 miles to go shopping in upstate NY - I don't even bother heating the cabin because, like most folks in winter, I'm dressed for the cold already and the seat heater and steering wheel heater provide more than enough heat for this short journey. This is not a "macho" thing, just practical, even my fastest heating ICE vehicle takes 5+ minutes of driving to warm up the cabin enough to take off my hat and the steering wheel is still cold. Thanks for explaining for the newbies 👍
When we had the Bolt I was fine recharging with the wall outlet for about the first 5 weeks because I also had the typical short commute of about 26 miles round trip. Got the EVSE because of needing to park outside often in Chicago winter and yes kept it plugged in for the preconditioning. It was wonderful, having spent decades getting into an ice-cold ICE car in the morning. and it barely producing heat before I was parking it again. Of course most cars now have remote start but then it sits out there burning gasoline at 0 MPG just to be more comfortable.
As the owner of a 2018 BMW i3S Rex, I have to say that I have been very impressed with the battery management system, and one of my very favorite features is the cabin pre-condictioning. Especially with the weather we've been experiencing lately here in Oregon, I feel so fancy sliding into a nice warm car on my way to work. I didn't realize just how "accustomed" I had become to this feature until last week, when I had to borrow an old Volvo v70 while my beloved Millennium Penguin was in the shop getting new shoes for the winter. Where was I going with this...? Oh yes, being that the car only has a 33kw battery, plugging in to the granny lead each night is plenty sufficient to keep it topped up and my standard practice especially in the winter. I have noticed virtually zero degredation in the the time I have owned it.
Unrelated note: I just received a letter from BMW saying that they are extending the factory warranty on the battery's thermal management and sensor system to 15 years/150k miles.
2015 i3 rex - I too am thinking the battery management system is excellent, no noticeable degradation
My father (80+ yrs old) loves his I3, which he got used at an opportune time a few years ago. No noticeable battery degradation either. Its a great little commuter car.
Nicky
This is such important information. It needs to be said over and over again. At least EVERY year... I love the information. I've been driving on electric only now for 6 yrs. But we now have a second electric car in our family. So we Need another 220v chargestation installed at our house. Hope my car warms on the granny lead... on 120v power... that's all I have right now...
120V should be enough to keep things happy at least, it will, once the battery is full. You won't be able to precondition exclusively on 120V power without taking something out of the battery pack, but something is better than NOTHING ;) - Nikki.
@@transportevolved A full tank of gasoline is better this battery play . Maybe you want to lay beside the battery and talk nice to it .
@@transportevolved My 2011 Leaf happily pre-conditioned at -20C on 120V.
It pre-heated for 2 hours, leading to parasitic losses and ice on the windshield, but I am pretty sure I got a full battery.
Good information. If I was a long distance commuter and parking my EV outdoors in subfreezing temperatures every night I would probably keep it plugged in. For most EV owners who drive less than 30 miles a day, optimum range every day is not a pressing concern.
Thank you very much for this informational video. I always enjoy your presentation.
My 1999 2 door explorer goes from about 280 miles of range in the summer to 220 in winter, pre conditioning includes about five to ten minutes of running to warm it up.😊 I can’t yet justify the expense of replacing it for an electric vehicle since I only commute about 85 miles per week. And my father gave it to me so it’s got some sentimental value.
Another (related) advantage of an EV: before you depart and you want to make your car comfy warm in winter (or comfy cool in summer), you can do this while the car is still inside the garage. No need to worry about carbon monoxide poisoning!
A couple weeks ago, when my home lost power, I spent a couple of evenings sitting in car for heat. And, since the car was an EV, I could do it in enclosed garage, with no carbon monoxide. Each hour of eat used only about 2 or 3% of the battery.
thanks for the very clear and concise explanation! Very useful info to have
I am 3.5yrs on to my Ioniq5 ownership and am very happy with its charging speeds, efficiency and range during the cold - temp winters here in Scotland. What I do wish however is that the defrost/preheat cabin mode covered the windscreen jets and the tubing etc sadly with no engine heating up under the bonnet I can go a full day without them defrosting, even when using crazy high - temp screen wash.
Thanks for the reminder. I just put my car under cover and plugged in! I agree that the need to set a charger as a destination to enable preconditioning is a real PAIN. I quite often like to set destinations based on actual map positions to ensure I enter a car park the right way or whatever reason... and because I haven't selected a charger it won't precondition (this is a 2024 Kona EV). I'm not even sure there's a way to trigger it manually - I've not found one yet. The ideal solution for me would be to have it as a navigation option. The only times I usually do a lot of fast charging are long road trips, where almost every destination means a charge stop anyway, so a default setting of "precondition regardless" would be extremely handy. Probably this is something they could fix with an OTA update...
I just got a used Nissan Ariya and because I don’t drive a lot I’ve been plugging in maybe once a week in my garage. But with the bitter cold temps, I’m going to switch to pre-conditioning the cabin and ABC procedures.
@@Natalie.D I’ve had an Ariya for a year (new), and you should know the Climate On remote control and schedule will not run the seat heater or wheel heater. I suspect it’s because they use a resistive load vs the heat pump, which draws way more power, and thus Nissan forcibly disabled it. Good for energy efficiency, but terrible on your bottom!
@ yes I figured that out plus I’m kinda angry that there isn’t a stand alone switch for the heated seats or steering wheel. I want to turn it on immediately not go into 3 screens to get to it.
I live in central BC and I lose about 10-15% range in winter. I just charge the battery that much more. So instead of 80% I charge to 90% or adjust my range accordingly. I love my EV.
Wasn't expecting a Bruce Hornsby and the Range reference in the video 😄
We're unpredictable like that ;) That's just the way it is. Some things will never change.
She didn't mention the range
08:05 Is that really correct? Yes, actively heating or cooling the car takes energy. but turning heating off will take zero energy when passively cooling the cabin. The energy consumption at a certain temperature is a factor of the temperature difference inside vs outside, and the insulation between the two. Thus preconditioning the car (maybe even to a bit toasty temperature), and then driving without any heating for a short trip uses the least of battery charge. If you need to engage heating again during the drive, the extra burst of consumption is anyhow less than what would have been spent on keeping a constant temperature up to that point - even if the car was preconditioned.
Yeah I think the 4th power term in the Stefan-Boltzmann law alone makes that assertion incorrect.
I am neglecting increased resistance from a cold battery: but I doubt that increases nearly as quickly.
I believe you are right. Funny thing though, there have been several "winter EV habits" videos of late, and several of them have made this same erroneous point. I have even had home heating & cooling technicians tell me something similar about running the furnace or A/C in the house. All of these completely miss the first order effect that a higher temperature differential has on heat transfer. The further your conditioned space's temperature is from the unconditioned space around it, the faster heat will move from one space to the other, increasing the energy demand to keep the temperature constant.
That said, there might be some kernels of truth to the question. For one, in heat pump heating systems, there is usually a backup source of heat, such as a gas furnace or electric heating elements, and if the difference between the current temperature and the thermostat set temperature is too large, the system may switch over to the much less efficient heating mode. This happens both in my house and my EVs.
Another effect, I am purely speculating on this particular point, might be that a heat pump could be designed in such a way that it runs more efficiently, with a higher COP, when it is having to move heat more slowly. So keeping the heat pump going more continuously, by maintaining a narrow temperature range over time rather than letting the temperature swing back and forth, might be more efficient? That one I definitely don't know much about.
Of course, all of this assumes one will eventually want to bring the temperature back to the original comfortable set point. In a scenario like what you describe, where the car is preconditioned and then can be driven without any climate control operation at all, all the way to the destination, then obviously the drain on the battery is _much_ less than if one uses the battery to provide the energy during the drive. It's probably more efficient energy wise too, at least for a garaged car, because even an unconditioned garage is likely to have a more moderate temperature than whatever's going on outside, making it easier/more efficient for the climate control to get the cabin to the desired temperature.
@@harvey66616 I think the only case where continuous heating is more efficient, is if the EV is one of those where engine heat can be recovered AND that this heat is mostly sufficient to maintain the cabin temperature. Cabin heating would then (mostly) solely be from this waste heat, that otherwise would be expelled to the surroundings - hence no additional battery consumption. But that would not be really winter conditions - more like a chilly autumn day. In freezing temperatures, the waste heat from motor efficiency loss is just not enough, and the bulk energy for cabin conditioning would have to come from the battery - often amplified by a heat pump.
401... My complements to you Nikki! You once again hit the nail on the head. Thanks and Keep Evolving!!!
Ha Ha Ha Russ repeats like a Frog.
Thanks
Preconditioning is my favourite feature.
Getting into a warm car is bliss❤
Great topic. Thanks team.
It’s because, baby it’s cold outside.
I'm sorry, but that song was cancelled.
@@LG123ABCbut the WAP song is fine art.. 🤔
Kyle Conner in his Out of Spec Reviews podcast has a video, titled. "My Top 10 Problems With Electric Cars! Degradation, Winter Range, Service / Repair, Towing, & More" at the 28 minute mark and 10 second mark on Winter Range. Provides technical details. Winter range will go down in the winter resulting in frequent charging. Chevy Bolt has a big drop off in EV range with an estimated -32% decrease according to InsideEV website in cold weather environment. EV drop offs in cold winter varies with EV model per InsideEV website.
If you have charging access at home then I think that it makes sense to keep your car plugged in at all times anyway. When I do finally get an EV, this is what I plan on doing, probably with the charge limit set to 60% unless I have a big day or trip planned. Surely this would be best for preconditioning your cabin, winter or summer. Optimizing EV ownership is a paradigm shift from our gas guzzlers, but really only a small one, unless you are particularly resistant to change.
I'd set it to 80% since that the most recommended on all EVs. Range anxiety even with my 2020 MYLR.
@@kirivanyam5969 The handbook on my Honda says charge to 100%. 80% is for when fast charging away from home.
@@EbenBransome _"The handbook on my Honda says charge to 100%. 80% is for when fast charging away from home."_ -- when in doubt, follow the user manual.
It is possible that the Honda you're driving, the battery is overprovisioned, so that "100%" charge is really something like 90%. Because of the well-known improvement in battery lifetime when it is not fully charged regularly, some (most?) manufacturers have been reserving battery capacity at the bottom and top end, making it unavailable to the owner so that the battery is always charged in a healthier manner, even when the owner always charges to 100%. In such cases, it might even be preferable to always charge to "100%".
That said, the data on battery longevity shows clear benefits to a) only charging to a reduced level, and b) charging with as small an interval as is feasible. I.e. it's better to charge every day, adding e.g. 20% each day, than to charge every other day, adding 40% with each charge session.
As far as the "80% is for when fast charging", this is more about practicality than battery life, since the car still will automatically reduce charging speed during fast charging as you get closer to 100%. When trying to make time on a road trip, it is usually more efficient _time-wise_ to only fast charge to 80%, at which point the charging speed starts to go down dramatically, and wind up having to charge a little more frequently.
Even there, I keep the fast charge limit set to 100%. If I am at the car and ready to leave when it reaches 80%, I'm going to notice that and will end the session and get on my way. On the other hand, if I'd gone to grab a burger or something and the car reaches 80% without me, I'm not leaving right then anyway and so it makes more sense to let the car just keep charging as much as it's willing to, even if that's at a much slower charging speed.
The upshot of all this is that while car dealers and even car owner manuals are often recommending home charging limits set to 100% and fast charging limits set to 80%, IMHO this is exactly backwards. 80% is plenty for my daily driving, and is better for battery lifetime even if the battery does have some capacity held in reserve, and 100% is always more appropriate if I'm using a fast charging station; even though I might often end a session well before the battery gets to 100%, I don't want the session ending any earlier than it has to if I'm not quite ready to get back on the road yet.
@@harvey66616 Thank you for the long essay telling me stuff I already know, though others may not.
Thank you for the content.
The LEAF has a timer for each day that can be set to precondition at any time of your choice. Work well for me!
Careful comparing battery capacity with fuel energy potential. I’ve made the same comparison and got shouted down with how stupid that is, lol (YOU CAN’T COMPARE BTUs WITH KWH RAH RAH RAH). As much as I hear doom and gloom over range loss of EVs in the winter, I’m still not convinced it was a bad choice for me. As someone in Texas and the risks of the grid failing (as it did a few years ago) due to…well…_gestures vaguely_… I mostly keep my car topped up in case of emergency these days. And I just don’t have an issue with the range loss overall. I mean, it happens and it’s noticed, but it’s no big deal.
Aren't you worried about battery degradation, keeping topped off? How far would you have to go in a power outage, is there power where you're going, are the chargers where you're going?
@@rp9674 Can't speak for the other guy: but I only charge to 80% in the summer months. Cold temperatures slow battery degradation due to a full charge.
@@rp9674 when I’m not traveling far I will limit charge to 80% or 90% depending on time of year. As recent reporting is showing, battery degradation is nowhere near what people thought it would be in EVs, also.
Good, true
ICE cars get about 15% less range at 20°F than at 70°F. And my car loses about 30-40 miles of range at 100°F plus due to heavy AC use (I live in the desert)
Useful. Thank you.
Everything is fine, nothing negative to see here.
Funny timing. I watched this video while my Bolt was heating up. Now I can leave.
Great explanation as usual
Thank you so much for this video. After years of research I finally took the plunge and bought my first EV. I’m super happy with it but going into winter for the first time, this info is timely.
I’d also be curious on your thoughts about rust protection. I’ve heard conflicting things as to whether or not one can/should undercoat or oil spray an EV. I suspect the answer there is that such procedures are not good on EVs but looking for a trustworthy authoritative opinion. I’ve also been told electronic rust modules are viable alternatives for EVs but again hear some say they work and others say they are a waste of money.
Any help navigating this topic would be appreciated.
Overall, EVs should be less prone to rust as there's no heat radiated from the exhaust to knacker the paint near it. You'll still get the same rust in the wheelarches, sills etc.
What I've read is that coatings that set hard are shit and will grow rust under the coating. Some people appear to have had good results with lanolin based coatings e.g. ua-cam.com/video/QqbnNNZRF-c/v-deo.html
In my elderly EV, trying to heat up the windscreen automatically engages the A/C; which is great at first, as it reduces fogging; but once the cabin is reasonably warm, the A/C isnt really needed, and turning it off - in ICE OR EV cars - will improve efficiency, especially in smaller ICE engines or smaller battery pack EVs.
Using all the tricks you mention - using seat and steering wheel heaters, and turning off A/C when it isnt needed, my winter range is only about 10% down on summer range - although the GOM remains pretty pessimistic in colder weather, and claims a near 20% drop.
My early morning school run is 12.8 miles these days, but the pessimistic GOM range only drops by about 4 miles, and a charge to charge comparison shows me exceeding the claimed GOM range nearly every time.
Sounds like an early LEAF - have you done the ac mod?
@@transportevolved No, I have a 2016 Soul EV; sadly, too few ever sold for any sort of community modding scene to have evolved; not even a range extender pack.
I look at the Leaf community modding scene with some envy; but my lower back is a jigsaw, so I need the higher seating position, otherwise I would have bought a Leaf; it was the first EV I had a sit in, a really nice car, but I struggled to get in and out without pain.
I've not been paying attention to this with our 2024 Flash model mostly because we live in a moderate coastal climate. However, I wondered if Simone keeping it plugged in more would be beneficial this first winter with it.
Dear Nikki:
Enjoyed the presentation: useful facts delivered in a calm and clear way. Thanks!
That said, I am a bit confused. At about 9:30 into the presentation, you mention that one can see occasional spikes in energy use while the car is plugged in but not running, in cold weather, these to heat the main battery. Then, at about 10:58, you say that the Bolt does not precondition the battery.
I have a 2023 Bolt 2LTEV. I charge with an EVSE that delivers live, and recorded, energy readouts to my mobile phone, via blue tooth. So, if my Bolt is off, if cabin preconditioning is not on, and if the '23 Bolt has no battery conditioning, what are these "spikes" I see repeated now that the weather is cold at night? What are they servicing if not the main battery?
All the best,
P.Q.
I'm not 100% sure but I think I saw you at the Tanger outlets charger in Mebane, North Carolina.
If you mean "You" as in "Nikki" - no.
@transportevolved Yes, Nikki. I guess Nikki has a doppelganger in North Carolina with a Bolt EUV.
I've been such a fool, only recently did I discover I should keep plugged in when possible, over 6 years of owning EVS
There is one small problem with this and that is the connection signal to the evse is from the 12-volt DC lead acid battery under the hood. The battery charger only actuates when the car is on or the car is actively charging. What this means is while the cord is left plugged in that 12-volt signal is using a quarter of an amp or whatever continuously to keep the signal active to the evse. This overtime about a week will drain down your lead acid battery and as we all know, lead acid batteries hate being drained down. It gives them a very short lifespan. What this means is leaving the car plugged in is going to kill your 12 volt battery under the hood even faster
12 volt systems functions are a mystery and seem to vary between vehicles
I think a software update fixed that for my leaf. (I think I caught it charging the 12V battery while plugged into an inoperative charger).
Hard to tell because mine is one of the Early SL models with the solar trickle charger.
Even the lowly LEAF will charge the 12v battery as needed
@@stevewausa I have seen reports it does not. That is why I mentioned the firmware update.
_"The battery charger only actuates when the car is on or the car is actively charging"_ -- maybe, maybe not. It really depends on the car. There is a wide range of implementations out there, and impossible to generalize.
My 2013 LEAF would only ever charge the 12V battery if the car was being driven. I managed to run the 12V battery all the way down when I foolishly left the car plugged in while I was on a multi-week trip, because I assumed keeping it plugged in was the best for the car. Turns out, the car would turn on each day, discover the high voltage battery was already topped up, and then turn off again. Each time the car turned itself on for the charging schedule, it would cost a fair amount of 12V battery power to run the computers, charging sensors, etc. which eventually killed the battery.
Turned out, the owners manual for the car did in fact tell owners to leave the car unplugged if not driving it daily. Stupid design, but at least they warned the owners.
My Model S doesn't give me any feedback about when it's charging the battery so I don't know exactly what it's strategy is. However, it does fine left plugged in, and I've never seen the 12V battery dead, so I surmise it takes a more hands-on approach with monitoring the 12V battery voltage and charging it as needed.
My EV6 has a light on the dashboard that turns on when it's charging the 12V battery. I suspect this is mainly there as a safety feature so that mechanics approaching the car to work on it can tell when the HV battery is engaged and use extra care. But it also means I get to see when the 12V battery is being topped up, if I happen to be around the car. I've never seen the light come on while driving (though maybe it's disabled in that case, since it's already obvious the HV battery is engaged), but I have seen it on both when the car is plugged in and when it's not, so I know that that car will charge the 12V battery any time it needs to be topped up, regardless of what other conditions or configuration the car is in at the moment.
Great explanation of cold temps. For us that live in hot places at what high temp does battery performance decline? Car tries to cool the battery? And does not charge fast?
Mendellsohn's Funeral March is a fav. of mine.
Some of this applies to ICE vehicles too. I'm sure that you're aware that engine block heaters are a thing, right? I remember my dad plugging in our vehicles at night whenever it started getting really cold out.
Makes initial cranking easier: and probably saves some fuel getting the engine up to temperature.
Not all cars have block heaters though.
Be Aware don’t precondition for SHORT trips!! My Ford app will let you schedule a precondition,for a departure time, it’s starts 45 minutes ahead. On a 32Amp charger this costs 6kW for my 10kW commute. That’s 40% additional energy! If your energy were from Coal, that might be dirtier than driving ICE. I will charge the battery before leaving to warm the battery and condition the cabin remotely before I get in. This is much cheaper and cleaner. For long trips preconditioning should be worth the investment.
I find that I have to run the space heater in my Bolt to keep the windshield from getting fogged up.
How does pre-conditioning the battery and cabin work while plugged in when you are outside of scheduled charging hours? Does the scheduled charging period override / prevent the EV from drawing power from the charging station?
EVSE will have some maximum power capacity, and of course L2 chargers are well below the maximum charging capacity of the car in all cases, and so the at-home EVSE power rating is going to be the limiting factor.
If preconditioning is active while charging the car, the car will still be able to charge the battery, but at a reduced rate to the extent that the preconditioning is taking power from what's available from the EVSE. For example, if you have a 9.6 kW (40A) EVSE, but the preconditioning is using 2 kW of power, the battery will only charge at 7.6 kW. But you'll still be able to charge.
My ford doesn’t go outside of the my set hours.
A poster in Norway was his tricks is leave his car plugged in at trickle charge level to keep the battery warm in the winter- the EV version of a block heater. I can't tear this in the Sonoran desert but if you are in cold climate, give a test
EVs don't "trickle charge". Some, if left plugged in, will run the battery's thermal management to keep the battery warm, but that isn't trickle charging. It's literally just pulling whatever energy from the utility is needed to maintain a specific temperature.
Oh, and this exact point was in fact addressed in the video. I guess you missed that part?
2013 chevy volt, ev range in the summer, 50-55 miles
ev range in the winter (below 32F/0C) 45-50 miles. epa range 38 miles lol.
people who dont know about preconditioning.... idk. phev starts to look pretty much like a no compromise more and more. i mean my insurance is 21$/mo, and the car paid for itself with fuel savings after 18 months of driving (lots of driving, even more charging). name a car that can ever hope to break even. chevy volt is one of the only electric cars that has increased in value during the last 3 years since covid. bought mine used for 6k right out of warranty at 100k miles, put another 45k miles on it, now its apparently worth 9k somehow. the no compromise aspect just keeps getting more and more meaning. only thing is my state passed a room temp iq double registartion fee of 300$/yr on the volt accidentally.... montana llc here i come.
Looking forward to the day that apartment complex owners figure out they don't need expensive EV chargers, just 220v outlets.
??? Is Pre-conditiong helpful when it's 45 to 55 degrees outdoors, I thought this is something really only needed when it's really cold like under 20 degrees in the USA ?
for Level 3 DCFC, (as I understand it, it has zeo use case when it comes to level 2 charging at your residence overnight as well)
At 100F I tend to keep my EV plugged in with the HVAC running between trips. Given its using Solar it’s not a big deal
_"Is Pre-conditiong helpful when it's 45 to 55 degrees outdoors"_ -- depends on what you're talking about. The word "preconditioning" has been used in the EV community to describe two completely different things: prepare the battery for charging by heating or cooling it, and conditioning the cabin temperature before departing on a trip, so the car's climate control doesn't have to work as hard once underway.
You are right that in the battery-related usage, it doesn't matter for L2 charging, and has limited use for DCFC unless the outside temperature is well outside the battery's "happy" range.
For preconditioning the car's cabin, it's of course more useful the hotter or colder it is outside, but it can always help at least a little.
@@harvey66616 Well my focus is more on trying to appreciate those models that have the heat pump I guess. I appreciate you teaching me the difference in how the term pre-conditioning get's used. Your right, now that I think about it, because most EV's less than 5 years old offer pre-conditioning as an option, but not all of them come standard with a heat pump. I'm specifically confused about the ability for level 2 charging to occur according to manufacturer's specification when charging outdoors. Like many, I don't have an insulated garage, and my fear is that when you see for example in the case of tthe 2022 Hyandai IONIQ 5 SE TRIM that (does not have the heat pump as standard, just how much will this impact and slow down the rated charging speed which is claimed to be 7 hours and 10 minutes from 10 % to 80%. I worry this is largely false advertising for those who have to charge outdoors when overnight charging conditions are say 40 to 50 degrees: What do you think? (this is the situation for much of the SouthWest. from December to February)
@@flolou8496 My first thought is, with a 77.1 kWh battery, Ioniq 5 owners are almost _never_ charging 10% to 80%. I own an EV6 (Kia's option that is essentially the same as the Ioniq 5), and I rarely use more than 25-30% of the battery in any given day.
That said, cabin preconditioning obviously will reduce charging speed somewhat, because an at-home L2 EVSE can only give so much power, and preconditioning operation will take some of that power. But I doubt it will be significant.
For one, preconditioning doesn't take place during the entire charging session. It's something that is usually scheduled just before departure. There's a good chance the battery is already fully charged by this time.
For another, it's not likely to use enough power to inconvenience the owner. I don't have documentation of specific numbers, but I doubt a resistive heater is pulling more than 2 kW, and a heat pump is generally going to be much less, around 0.5 kW maybe. There's no reason anyone would be running 2 kW of resistive heating for an entire charging session, but even if they did, a 9.6 kW EVSE (40A, which is the largest plug-in EVSE you will find in the US) still has 7.6 kW left over for battery charging, which is only 7 hours of charging a 77.1 kWh battery from 10% to 80%.
Given an 8 hour workday, even if there's an hour commute on each end, this hypothetical person charging has 14 hours to replenish whatever energy they used that day. Even going from 10% to 80%, and even if one is inexplicably operating the climate control for the car the entire time, that's still plenty of time to charge the battery. (And I reiterate, that scenario just never actually happens.)
@@harvey66616 Thanks for your comment, but as I contemplate Level 2 charging issues, I feel left in the dark with how useful it is to have a model with a heat pump or not. I feel it's very deceptive for manufacturer's to give these specifications for charging speeds say from 10% to 80% full in as little as 7 hours and 10 minutes in the case of the IONIQ 5 from the 2022 through 2023 model years, when that specification is given without any warning to consumers those results could vary widely based on the temperatures outside the car, (ie in a closed insulated garage, or outdoors in your driveway for millions of people who don't have a garage) As I understand it, the heat pump on models that have this, has no direct influence on Level 2 charging, only level 3 charging, correct?
I feel like my battery drain complaints may have prompted this in part.
Does battery pre-conditioning consume much energy prior to fast charging? Especially if battery power is low. Or stuck in traffic. Or a line-up to charge.
Probably some, not much, energy well spent
About 3-4 kw. It varies between brands. MG4 claims 7kw
It does. Enough so that at least for some cars there's a minimum battery level below which battery preconditioning is disabled. The exact amount of energy depends on how far away from optimal temperature the battery is when preconditioning.
Bjorn Nyland's channel includes _lots_ of range tests where he uses the ODBII reader on his phone to show various energy parameters, including battery temp and power draw, and you can get a pretty good idea of how different cars behave watching those videos and seeing what happens to the numbers when he's approaching a charging station and battery preconditioning is happening.
@@theairstig9164 _"About 3-4 kw. It varies between brands. MG4 claims 7kw"_ -- the instantaneous power draw isn't very useful information though. A car using 7 kW to precondition the battery for 10 minutes is going to use the same amount of energy as on that uses 3.5 kW for 20 minutes.
In either case, assuming a car that gets around 3 miles/kWh, you're going to use about 1 kWh of energy, and so lose about 3 miles of range to the preconditioning.
As long as one isn't cutting things too close getting to the charging station, that amount of range lose shouldn't be a big problem.
thanks.
Yes! That "setting a charging station as a nav destination for preconditioning" is a total PITA. And a terrible design decision.
Electric Viking . Why does Sam Evans have more subs and views than T.E.? Also many more comments compared to the subs number.
I drive a 2010 wheego whip with 5 speed manual transmission ,use's 16 6 volt deep[ cycle batteries 65 mph with 60 miles range been driving for 8 years even in -20 deg fahrenheit lead acid batteries are 100% recyclable. have to admit l car is quite nimble car is slightly modified
The thing is gas vehicles will get better gas mileage in the winter as cold air is more dense thus contains more oxygen.
Nope. More oxygen is only helpful if you use it to burn more gas.
That can give you more _power_ for a given volume of air pulled in by the engine, but does nothing for efficiency. In fact, since the full throttle power available is higher in the winter, depending on how you drive you might actually find your efficiency goes _down_ because you're accelerating the car faster than in warmer weather.
IMO, ICE vehicles make more sense in the winter than EVs in a cold weather environment if you live in a flat, in urban city environment and don’t have time to wait at public EV chargers, especially if you have 2 jobs. Per Kyle Conner from last winter, EV cold weather performance needs to improve. We are still in the early stages of EVs. Remember it took 16 years of EV production in the USA to carve out 1.7% of the total registered light duty vehicles in the USA whereas it took 22 years of hybrid (HE and PHEV) production to carve out 3%. In the USA, EVs is still a niche market. Mainstream car buyers will not accept EV compromises during winter conditions. A lot has to be done to move the needle forward.
Don't forget the EV disaster last winter in Chicago. People love to compare Norway to Chicago. There is no comparison. Chicago is a densely populated urban environment versus Norway. The Chicago urban agglomeration, according to the United Nations World Urbanization Prospects report (2023 revision), lists a population of 8,937,000. Norway's population is 5.52M and is spread over larger area than Chicago. This means that MORE EV owners in Chicago area don't have access to home/overnight charging in Chicago area than Norway.
Trump will fix the problem.
Out with sosialistic woke logic.
just buy the car with sodium ion battery car instead in cold climate.
why Why WHY CANT THEY COME WITH A DIESEL HEATER or someone come up with a system to install one, I'd buy that in a minute.
I'm driving around with my windows cracked just to keep my windows defoged cause I dont want to run my heater. With a diesel heater I'd bet it would use less than a couple gallons a year.
@@edolson1698 would be a fairly simple straight forward install , it'd burn a gallon per 8hours . Maybe keep it in the frunk if the remote control would still work
That is apparently what the new battery-electric busses in Moscow do.
Previous electric busses used overhead lines: and had no need for diesel heaters.
The simple answer is that for ordinary driving, it's simply not necessary. A modern EV has enough range that even using energy in the battery for heat, you still have way more energy than you need for a normal driving day. Even on road trips, using the battery for heat means stopping to charge a bit more often, but it's not really that big of a deal. By contrast, a diesel heater would add cost and complexity to the car, plus the hassle of having to periodically visit the gas station to refuel it, plus the need to drain the fuel during the summer to prevent the fuel from going stale.
A transit bus is one of the rare cases where a diesel heater does make some amount of sense, simply because a bus has to be on the road 20 hours/day, every day, regardless of the weather, and has to stay exactly on schedule no matter what (meaning, even an extra 5 minute per hour of charging time would mean big delays for passengers). And, in fact, many battery electric buses do use diesel heaters for this very reason.
But, for general-purpose consumer vehicles, it's both simpler and cheaper to simply use the battery for heat, even if it means charging more often on a winter road trip.
@ab-tf5fl diesel won't go stail for at least 5 years, it's not like gas . I've got diesel in my barn I bought in 2020 still works fine . No stabilizer.
I have a Chinese diesel heater that I use when camping and it takes all of 3 minutes to blow heat and it's a better heat that the car can produce, more comfortable.
I didn't get a DC fast charger with my Bolt which ain't all that fast to begin with so every bit counts and when it's cold out they don't charge at full capacity anyway.
I don't care about the added cost I want the option of being comfortable, at less give me the option to check the box for the heater don't put em in every car or some sort of aftermarket kit?
This Piston Pundit : Red country shyna Break with U.S.. The E.V. supply Shock.
12/09/2024 Dickmorrisreports : Trump 2.0 will be all about energy . Know what is coming Nick and Cat.
T.E. is a John Lennon fan , Imagine . You demand the world to be the way you Imagine and claim often to be victims .
Get John Lennon's name out of your mouth.
@@TheRealLaughingGravy What do you mean?
Call it a "home EV charger", a "charging station" is confusing :) Whether you like it or not the meaning of "woke" has dramatically changed :)
The original meaning of work is as it ever was. Just because someone misappropriates a term from another group specifically out of hate doesn't mean the original group isn't using it for the original purpose. - Nikki.
The meaning of "woke" has been dramatically misused and weaponized.
Ping yes , fa minority group wants to have the power to rule over all .BB Not democracy at all . %$^&*
The leaf has terrible battery management, it was good to learn the bolt has terrible battery management as well. Since I am shopping for a modern vehicle.
Here in Anchorage Alaska.
From my calculations the kWh I spend heating daily to keep my diesel truck engine warm and ready to ignite is more kWh per day than an EV would use to get me to work, soccer, groceries, mail, and pizza and back daily.
Why No mention about Tesla and their battery management preconditioning system?
Is the Tesla battery poorly managed like the leaf and bolt?
We need to know who has the most efficient winter battery thermal management system?
In fact it seems you are racist by very carefully excluding the Tesla EV from all of your imaging and script to go along with this dissertation?
I think Tesla is the one that only pre-heats the battery if you enter a charging station as your destination in the nav system.
@@jamesphillips2285
Tesla did it first, but these days, pretty much every new EV does it, Tesla or not.
The current Bolt does not do this because it was designed with 2015-era technology. When the new Bolt enters production next year, I fully expect it will do navigation-based battery preconditioning also.
@@ab-tf5fl I am convinced, but have not yet confirmed, that my Leaf runs the battery heater in "ready" mode until it reaches ~0C.
That is only good for about 20kW of charging, as mentioned in the video.
Only recently learned it runs the heater at -17C when parked, not -28C like I initially believed.
Jeez, can anyone be more condescending?
Nope. Do go on. You're leading the field...
This is a 2 minute video stretched to over 16 minutes.
Great. Where's your video?
mhtirogla