Miami to Disneyworld has to be a hit. What has changed since private railways going bankrupt: heavy traffic and the inconvenience/expense of short flight.
Yes, and people caring about "green" travel, and valuing their time. Why even Amtrak's old LA to Vegas 7+ hour service would be amazing today, compared to the 90's, these are different times.
@@ncard00 Hey floridian here, more specifically a miami dweller. Idk how it is where you guys are but most of us over here couldn't give a FUCK about green travel or wtv. What alot of people that arent from MIA or LA understand or remember are the gas prices too. ITS INSANELY EXPENSIVE to drive from Miami to orlando and then back almost (for reference it costs me $60 just to drive from where im at to west palm beach and back) , the Brightline train saves us stress of driving in Miami (which is like no other state) and money. I'm sure you guys over in LA has similar if not much more expensive prices which would entice you to take a train.
@@SetiPrimeSorry, but I live in Copenhagen in Denmark, Scandinavia, so I can’t relate to your US philosophies, but travelling stress free, and giving people and alternate way to tragel, cheaper, and reducing car dependency, are just other added benefits you get with Brightline. And actually, I don’t care about the climate either, but I do about reducing noise and air pollution, reducing travel times, and removing cars and traffic from the roads.
Using rail systems as a real estate play is common around the world, especially in Asia. It has been done in Hong Kong and Japan, to give two examples. In fact, this was commonly done in the United States during the early years of railroads in the western half of the country in the 19th century.
WAS and NYP station rebuilds are an attempt at private investment, more awkward with all the stakeholders and politics and costs. In both cases private interests already own various air rights, but the negotiations spill out into public view. Good thing or not. We need more journalism to decode the complexities, technical, political, not just a medium long article every so often.
This guy doesn't understand the whole business concept of Brightline...it's about the real estate, all about the real estate(which is actually in control of the real estate around the stations).
You're forgetting that even the "best" examples of funding rail with real estate are famously messy and considered a boondoggle by the locals. Hong Kong is a fully government controlled system in a "country" where literally all the land is owned by the government and merely leased to real estate developers. Yes, this was the case even before China took over Hong Kong. That system is rife with corruption, waste, and inequities. The system in Japan works slightly better but is also a mess of government corruption, the yakuza, and local crony corporations screwing over the locals. Their rail companies regularly go bankrupt to force a government bailout. Then they take the money are run with seemingly zero punishment. Let's not forget that the vaunted Shinkansen system is still just a single line running the length of the country. In Europe their state subsidized networks already form dense lattices of HSR service with countless connections and innovative service patterns. In Japan the whole system is stagnating and waiting to be overcome by Europe and China. Poor little Spain now has a better network than Japan. That doesn't just happen. That's a systemic problem. You don't just lose the top spot in a game that you literally invented yourself.
@@TohaBgood2At least for Hong Kong, getting land for construction of a new line and station is never a problem. And many of the station got mall owned by mtr nearby, some even real estate. Hell lotus park station exist solely for real estate. The mess of mtr lies with construction over budgets, and lately subpar quality (that force station to be reinforced) At least railway wise, the mess simply isn't the result of mtr real estate model. And corruption in that area is rather minimal.(All that comes through construction contracts during construction of station and real estate, and legally) The system issue in itself is caused by large percentage government revenue come from selling land, and as a result new construction and flat etc all become expensive. MTR corporation works rather well given its model. Real estate is never the reason behind failure of them in some of the area. I can't say for Japan tho since i don't live in japan.
@@789know The real estate is the only directly valuable part of the MTR. How do you think the people that the MTR is displacing feel about it being "easy to get land"?
The main reason California high speed rail is taking so long is not the training, it's the land acquisition which is labourious and takes a lot of time. Not to mention the lack of total funding for the project so it's very stop and start. Brightline west at least has the central reservation rights in between the highway for a significant portion of the journey which should reduce this risk.
The Organisation of CAHSR has also never developed the capacity to use more than $2bn in a calendar year Partly because they never expect to have that much funding to accelerate delivery. CAHSR is a disaster in Terms of staging, they would have been far better starting with high Speed commuter line upgrades in SF-SJ-Gilroy and Burbank-LA Union-Annaheim first, then connecting Gilroy to Bakersfield and Sacramento, and LA Union to San Diego, then finally if the demand is there connecting Bakersfield to Burbank.
It's only ambitious because it's in the USA. Unless the USA understands this and opens itself up to improvement, it will get left behind on the world stage.
The World Stage is crumbling under their choice to fixate on railroads. France is dead broke, and will need to raise retirement age to pay for all the subsidies. Now that they actually have to pay their NATO dues to the Americans, expect even more belt tightening. Even Germany is concerned they should have joined the British Commonwealth instead of the EU.
I agree that Brightline not connecting to any other transit systems is a downside. However In Florida, Brightline has a solution for limited transit from the stations. They offer Brightline+, there own car service to/from the stations and I assume they will do the same in Las Vegas. I think Brightline+ will take you anywhere within 5 miles of the station for a small up charge on a basic ticket. It really helped boost their Florida service.
Brightline FL connects to the Fort Lauderdale bus terminal since that's where the Fort Lauderdale station is. Brightline Miami station was constructed to house Tri-Rail on the other side. Upon leaving Brightline Miami, you can access Miami mass-transit services very quickly outside of Brightline+.
@@Ven100getting on Miami metro from BL Miami central is easy, but is really confusing because you have to walk like ten minute even though they r next door because they put fences on everything for no reason
@@carverjohnson2941 It's literally a 2 minute walk. Exit the Brightline Miami station and go W on NW 6th ST. Turn right on the first street and you'll run right into the MetroRail Orange line with escalators. I don't remember any fences there closing that street down and I just took Brightline last weekend.
Either late this year or early next year trip rail will connect directly into Miami central station, as well a the local metro rail in Miami. There's an entire side/section of the station just for those passengers to connect to downtown Miami. Plus a commuter rail company which is planning on building out more stations along Brightlines tracks to facilitate things. In fort Lauderdale the central buss hub is right next to the brightline station, then you have shuttles that will pick you up and drop you off from the airport, with integration to Uber for premium guests. If I'm not mistaken in West Palm and Miami there are bikes available to rent and ride, used to have scooters in Miami which I think they'll be bringing back. The list goes one brightline has taken the steps to make it as easy as possible to get around. I forgot about the circuit shuttles that take you within 3 miles of the station which is usually the downtown city center where everything is happening.
Upon leaving the Bright line in West Palm Station an electric bus, I believe the six seater meets the train and takes you to almost anywhere in West Palm or Palm Beach.
The idea that Metrolink will serve as an adequate final leg into LA is really questionable if they don’t make drastic service adjustments and additions to the SB line.
@@UrbanDox the word on the street in LA circles is that the Metrolink board is apparently set to vote on a proposal to run the San Berdoo line on DMU's at 30 min intervals
The best solution is electrifying and doubling SB line and extend Brightline West service to LA Union Station using them, similar to Caltrain in San Francisco.
Brightline Florida will be strong for many many years as it's really a game changer for transportation in the state. With further expansions within Florida it will provide much needed relief from highway traffic as more and more people move to the state. Speaking of Brightline West .... Brightline knows how to build a railroad and has skilled workers who will get the job done on time.
They know how to build a railroad that has had a head start. When I see an actual high speed railway built by Brightline, I'll be inclined to agree then.
I do agree that Brightline is a bit too confident about itself. However, I don't really mind that they use real estate to generate income for their railway services. If we take a look at one of those profitable rail services providers around the globe (JR groups, MTR etc) they all generate income to support their services by selling lands around their stations or developed those land themselves.
I'd like to add that companies like JR do not do real estate to fill in losses incurred by the rail lines, but to increase passenger numbers to make the lines even more profitable.
Yea developing all the land around stops is why it’s terrible for Florida. The amount of development happening in Florida is absolutely terrible and why our waterways are struggling so bad.
BL needs to focus on getting complete grade separation along their entire route, as well as keeping their priority focused on expanding in Florida in my opinion
Seeing idiots in cars get t boned by Brightline because of their lack of patience around crossings, well, they brought it upon themselves. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
@@snoopyloopy As other mentioned, he is talking on Brightlin Florida. A train going 110 mi/h that has 156 at grade rail crossings in mostly urban area is a recipe to disaster, not to mention delays that will make this line less reliable thus less used. Brightline West must be fully grade separated as from 125 mi/h US regulations requires full grade separation, which is what they did in Florida from Cocoa to Orlando airport (from 111 mi/h-125 at grade is allowed but from that speed presence detection tied to PTC is mandatory. for 80-110 it depends on evaluation of each crossing so they upgrade those crossings to adapt to the 110 mi/h speed.
Just found out about this channel yesterday, and it has some pretty good content. You do a good job explaining the situation at hand, and I get that there are inheritly profit related risks with private corporations, but there are three main things I would like to point out that makes Brightline stand out. 1. Brightline is *mostly* privately funded. Even though it doesn't cover the whole cost, it's still a significantly lower price for state/local governments to pay than the full price tag. The Orlando Airport extension was also funded through highway funds since the ROW was built along highway property, so this project and Brightline West are good ways for the private and public sectors to work together on funding public transit. 2. Brightline is NOT, I repeat, *N O T* anything like the Auto Train. This company only and still does run ONE train a day between its termini on worn down track, as their Louisville track was terribly maintained to the point where it was risky to run there without derailing. Brightline's ROW has been recently refurbished for 125mph operations as they provide incredible frequencies at one train per hour since its 1st day of service. Most commuter rail or Amtrak lines don't get anywhere close to that frequency except the Northeast Regional. Even Amtrak's proposed Florida service recently announced to rival Brightline will only be 1 tph. 3. Passenger Rail by itself, when done right, *IS* profitable. Real estate development helps as well since basically every single railroad in North America utilized the same tactic of land development near a railroad, but having a reliable and frequent service that millions of people can conveniently use to go from one town center to another will make it relied upon so much that the profits outrun the costs, as Brightline recently announced two months ago that their passenger services became profitable (an article that's conveniently missing from this video). Various long distance, intercity and commuter rail lines were in fact profitable in the past, but we almost never hear about it because the corporate executives at the time wanted nothing to do with the public in order to save a buck, and you don't hear about profitable passenger rail in history books since they favor other modes of transport such as cars and planes to make sure that no one even thinks about investing in the better alternative. As you can tell, I'm a huge fan of Brightline as its business model, although not perfect, is incredibly efficient of bringing high quality passenger service to any part of the country, even if it means revitalizing an existing ROW instead of building a new one, as Brightline's profitable and luxurious service has earned it the title of the best passenger railroad in the U.S.; something that I can also attest to as someone who also recently rode Brightline in addition to almost 30 other Amtrak routes. Otherwise, good job on making this video, and I can't wait to see what you'll cover next.
I agree. Also, on the other side of the world, Japanese passenger rail companies are all privately owned. They utilize a similar tactic with real-estate around their stations and track. That proves this model can work if done right.
This comment is incorrect. The best privately funded passenger rail in the world pales in comparison to mediocre passenger rail that's state funded. Always has been the case.
@@BlakeB415 Japanese rail has infrastructure funded and built by the government, and is heavily regulated to stop the private companies from dropping any service. Very bad example.
@@duncanholden2826 Not exactly true. Yes, there's government oversight when it comes to servicing. However, It's a mix of government and private funds to build out infrastructure, and in JR Group's case (more it's member companies), they own and operate most of the tracks they run on.
@@BlakeB415 it was developed under the nationalized system adn the private companies have only hurt service, there's intense local lobbying to get them to drop service as it needs local approval. Japan is a nationalized rail success story and their subsequent failures are a cautionary tale to those wanting to privatize anywhere in the world.
10:00 Metrolink's SCORE program is already in affect taking shape, and will have 30 minute off peak headways, and 15 minute rush hour head ways in both directions by 2027-2028. Lots of progress has already been made and the SB line is set to be one of the first electrified routes in Phase 3 of SCORE. LA Metros A line is also set to be extended all the way to the new Rancho station eventually. Personally, I may be a little biased because I live along Soledad, but I think Brightline should have came into LA through Soledad Pass it may have been an easier time to get them a direct route into LAUS. Good exclamations and points raised.
@@vincentperez4653 Lol that's true. There is a little corridor in the median of the 14 freeway from the Sierra Highway overpass to the Escondido overpass so that can bypass most of Acton
If it would take that route, it would probably use the California High Speed Rail tracks from Palmdale to LA. My guess it they chose Rancho Cucamonga, because there is at least some connection available when they're planning to start service (Ok, there is also a Metrolink to Palmdale but that would take longer) and they don't want to wait for CSHR. And if CHSR builds the route to San Diego, it could still connect to that in Ontario.
PS The Japanese railroad companies offset their costs and increase their profitability through their real estate holdings as well as other enterprises. That is probably where the idea for Brightline got its model. Not sure if this applies, but where the light rail is installed, property values go up. Charlotte NC is an example of that.
It's not just Japan but that's the most notable example in recent history. The USA did it too, just as every other country which has had rail because it just makes sense to do so
@@wetsock6334 I was thinking about that, too, but the economics 150 years ago didn't seem applicable to the current reality. I hear you. The various JR business models seem more relevant -- although I suspect like the UK there will need to be some re-nationalization in the future.
That's because all the money that's supposed to support public facilities went into politicians' and bean counters' pocket. They scale down projects, they cause delay in permits, and they progress slowly. They also divert money away from public safety and public transit to proven-failing poverty or housing programs. The public transit and surrounding facilities has to be "bright shinny" clean, "bullet-free and drug-free" safe, and "reaching anywhere" convenient. And if you think that's impossible, that's exactly how public transit in Japan, Korea, China look like. Even 1-2AM people still have minimal concerns while in those areas. Here all transit and transit stations look filthy, streets full of unsafe homelessness. And politicians here keep grouping them together with those valid homeless people who stay away from downtowns to keep themselves drug-free. The "equality" in politicians' mouth is nothing but a propaganda to raise money and it kills "fairness" as well as making everyone fail together. They never understand that if they can convert 20% more homeless into working class, they gain in tax instead of spend more on them. Their stupid rules both make valid homeless people to benefit and get out of those programs, and make the drugging homeless not participating at all.
I get where you were going with the auto train comparison, but we gotta remember that these are two completely different types of train services. The auto train was a long distance car-hauling train while Brightline is intercity rail. Of course an auto train is not going to be running every hour like an intercity service would. And from the looks of it, the auto train didnt really go to places where high amounts of people would use it. It’s definitely not like it went between New York and Chicago. Brightline on the other hand is trying to connect nearly all of Florida’s major cities, two of the world’s most popular amusement parks, and is trying to compete with cars by providing 110-125mph running. Same for Brightline West, fast service connecting two major tourist cities in the west. Now I do agree the victor valley station is poorly placed, and that they should go all the way to LA. However, Metrolink is increasing service frequencies on all of its lines over the coming years with its SCORE project, and the San Bernardino line is planned to be one of the first Metrolink lines to be electrified. Even if BL doesn’t go to LA right away, that doesn’t mean it won’t go to LA ever. If the line does pull through and eventually extend to LA and maybe even Phoenix in the future, I see it being a huge success. It will be much more attractive over driving as it will be faster than driving and flying. Amtrak is barely doing the work to provide more intercity/high speed rail. Although I don’t think there should be more private rail companies, they do provide a great opportunity to show what makes rail superior to driving and flying and could jumpstart Amtrak to try to provide a better service so that they can prosper as well
There is more than enough room to double-track in the median north of Yermo. It would also be simple enough to go outside the median between Barstow and Victorville if a double-tracked section is needed.
@tonyburzio4107 No it isn't. Single-tracking was a proposal the CAHSR board considered for a bit back when their funding picture was far less clear. They dropped the idea the moment Biden signed the big Infrastructure Bill
There are literally mile long backups between Los Angeles and Las Vegas EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND, you can bet a vast majority of those people would choose to take a train vs driving, because once people reach Vegas they don't need their car to drive around, you walk the Strip.
Except of course, there is no possible way for Brightline West to cross Cajon Pass on their current construction budget (hint; 6 miles of 6% grade on I-15)... ....and there is no way that LA residents are going to drive to Victorville, only to park their car and ride a train the rest of the way, at a price that is the same as taking a low-cost airline from BUR, ONT, SNA, LGB, or LAX.
@@ilikehardplay L.A. residents do not have to drive to Victorville...the western terminus has been extended over Cajon Pass into San Bernardino and a direct connection with MetroLink. Even with all the flights between SoCal and Vegas I15 still ends up with mutliple hours long back ups almost every weekend(it looks like a parking lot), and the marketing survey has already been done...the passenger volume is there.
@@zaklex3165 ".the western terminus has been extended over Cajon Pass into San Bernardino and a direct connection with MetroLink. " That's what Brightline's press releases claims they can do. They still have not shown anyone the engineering that will allow them to run trains over I-15 Cajon Summit median, whose grades include miles at 6% and whose curves are too tight for railroad use. Not to mention an agreement in hand from the state of California to let them attempt it. Press releases are cheap and easy. Laying track.....is much less so. I don't doubt there is a market for "a better way to Las Vegas" than the current I-15 weekend gridlock. (that's why Northern Pacific Airline is leaping into the ONT-LAS market, and Breeze Airways is offering flights from San Bernardino to Vegas for $29-39 O/W ), I simply doubt that Brightline has the engineering to get over Cajon Pass in an affordable fashion.
@@ilikehardplay AFAIK Brightline isn't using the I15 corridor over Cajon Pass, that's only for the portion from Victorville to Vegas...it would presume they're negotiating with the BNSF and/or UP for access to their rights of way over Cajon Pass, both of which are designed for a railroad.
@@zaklex3165: "AFAIK Brightline isn't using the I15 corridor over Cajon Pass,..." That's what their press flacks have previously claimed... "...i would presume they're negotiating with the BNSF and/or UP for access to their rights of way..." Good luck with that. Between tBNSF & UP and their four lines, they average 100-200 trains a day. (+ Amtrak's E&W-bound "Southwest Chief"), most of those moves are enormous drags of double-stack diesel hauled freight. There is no chance that either company would voluntarily mix in high speed passenger service among their 15-30 MPH freight trains. And catenary wires? Don't make me laugh. Double stacks and auto racks don't fit under catenary. And neither railroad are going to let a third-party tie up a track installing it in a multi-year project. Not to mention that the route is optimized for LOW speed service, with curves that would prove challenging for 90 MPH operations....let alone HSR speeds. Add to it that there is NO HSR train set that meets current FRA buff-strength requirements for passenger and freight equipment sharing the same line. FRA's tentative approval for CalTrain line sharing requires absolute time isolation....with a no mixed operation, and complete line inspection that the line is clear for change of service. No way that would work on Cajon. Amtrak's rights on Cajon are grandfathered in ....as well as ONE Vegas train each way a day because of the discontinued Desert Wind's previous operation. But that can't transfer that to anyone else, and just one train each way a day would be a fast route to bankruptcy for Brightline.
To be clear, Brightline used all private capital. Aventura and Boca are not part of the original plan. Broward and Palm Beach counties offered to pay for the stations on their own. Also, the OIA Intermodal Center is a FDOT project since almost before AAF. Brightline just built connecting track. This is all very public knowledge.
Hi, I know that public transportation being private is usually a bad thing, but seeing how painfully slow building trains in north America is, Brightline doing it's own thing might even be good, because it's showing what would be possible if someone took things in their own hand and accepted the risks of running passenger rail. And the fact that it's partially subsidized by tax money actually makes sense to me, as the communities around Brightline profit from it, so it's not a bad investment for them. Here in Europe we do have several private railways, some of them running on fully public infrastructure and directly competing with public services and it does work, it helps keeping prices low for example. Between Barcelona and Madrid there are around 7 operators, some of them public, some private, and some even owned by the french or the Italian railways... and in Austria there is Westbahn, which directly competes with public trains, yet both services get enough ridership to expand and run more frequently. And Westbahn is even integrated with the Klimaticket, which is a unified public whole-year ticket for the whole country (or just one state, depends on what you want). And it's fully private as far as I know... Edit: also, once people's recognize the value of passenger train services it will not be that easy to close Brightline. Yes, if Softbank or the fortress company decided to stop cash flow there would be some rough years for Brightline. But I would expect the government to buy Brightline and continue at least some kind of service, like they did with the old operators and Amtrak. But also, I'm European, things that I took for granted are usually a privilege in north America regarding public transportation...
And even if the private sector fails/brightline goes under, Amtrak could just buy the route. Literally a free gift of a big chunk of the infrastructure costs from the private sector, just like the rest of the system and the AutoTrain.
Brightline owns a lot of property around it's stations and track. This helps pay for it's operations and expansion. It's a similar technique that is used by Japanese railroad companies.
The major difference is that the federal government owns the infrastructure. Here, in the USA, the infrastructure is privately owned for the most part.
@@isaacliu896 battery electric vehicles still require a lot of resources and emissions to build out. Plus they are heavier than ICE vehicles, so they will place more wear and tear on the roads.
Brightline is correctly focusing on competing with short haul air flights. If any private train service is going to succeed in the USA, it's using this model. And they correctly understand that the real money is in real estate. So I think they are going to be successful.
I hope Brightline succeeds on the West Coast, I would definitely take the train to Las Vegas when the line opens, I hate I-15 to Vegas, one little accident and you are stuck in traffic for hours.
If brightline were an airline, we wouldn't even be having discussions like this. Passenger air travel is a form of public transportation, yet nobody says that passenger air travel should be ran as a public good and shouldn't be in the hands of private companies. In terms of air travel, there's Delta, United, Southwest airlines, JetBlue and more. Anytime there's a crisis Micah pandemic, a terrorist attack that scares the public away from flying, the government always comes to the rescue. Nobody asks should passenger air travel be nationalized? Personally, I think private passenger rail is a good thing. Brightline is doing it because politicians have failed to invest in High-Speed rail. The US is behind Europe, Japan and other industrialized countries in terms of rail... And Fortress knows this... And that's why they're stepping in.
Planes and cars don't need to be banned, but car and plane dependency is the problem, people need more options, like cycling and transit, so cars are not the only option.
Oh what a load of journal packing! There has been plenty of money invested and squandered on rail. The problem is actually getting something for the money.
The big difference with airlines is who owns the infrastructure. It's not the various private airlines. The airports are usually entities with public private ownership arrangements. The airlines don't own or operate the control towers at airports, etc. So, the airline industry runs much more like a private/public venture and it's well regulated too. So your comparison is not valid. The railroad infrastructure in the USA is almost entirely owned by a handful of private companies and their focus is solely on freight. That's the problem.
@@mrxman581 Small correction. The big fives have only one focus: PROFIT. The fact that they have to haul freight to make a profit, and that they furthermore have to do maintenance on their network is a hindrance to them - and it shows...
@@sethanix3969 "The big fives have only one focus: PROFIT." And they haul more ton/miles of freight for less cost to the customer than any other rail system on the planet. There are plenty of freight lines in the country that are maintained to exceptionally high standards. Just look at UP & BNSF's lines over Cajon Pass. Or the Alameda Corridor through Los Angeles. But these are high capacity lines that are highly used.....and generate gobs-and-gobs of profit in cargo moved. The big five are simply not willing to maintain passenger lines as an act of charity because some rail fan wants them to.
I've always expected that when the real estate profits play out, Brightline would pass to a public agency (probably Amtrak) or shut down. As for Brightline West, why wouldn't they just erect catenary from Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station on the San Bernardino Metrolink line? Why in North America do we think of railway catenary as a (near) impossibility when it's routine in Europe? There should be plenty of skilled workers once CalTrain gets done...
Even if so, that's a great outcome for the public sector! You literally had private investors pay for most of the construction of a rail link and now you only have to do operating costs. Basically the story of Amtrak.
@@tonyburzio4107 I was thinking more of the land being developed specifically by the Brightline conglomerate. Florida development in general probably doesn't have a horizon (unless the climate change predictions about sea levels actually pan out 😛).
@davidwyatt928 "As for Brightline West, why wouldn't they just erect catenary from Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station on the San Bernardino Metrolink line? " Because not all the line between Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station is actually OWNED by Metrolink.....especially in the Urban Los Angeles core. Metrolink shares busy lines owned by BNSF & Union Pacific, both of which operate double-stack container and oversized freight (esp. autoracks) both directly on the line and across diamond crossings that would make catenary impracticable. Catenary works in Europe because container freight is shipped single-stack.....and oversized freight travels by road or water. Not a lot of canals or navigable rivers in Southern California.
@@tonyburzio4107 The Summer of 2023 is showing us that disastrous weather events all across the USA are impacting us far sooner and with far greater destructive impact than we anticipated even one short year ago. Soon there will be nowhere we can flee to escape global climate change, not even Florida. From Vermont's awful floods to the wildfires all across Canada to the oppressive heat waves hitting California, Texas, New Mexico. Arizona and much of the Southeastern United States, we Americans are facing far greater concerns than if or when Brightline can succeed at building a high-speed train from Rancho Cucamonga to Las Vegas. Our entire planet Earth is in deep, deep trouble. We are already losing our incentive to travel ANYWHERE. Just ask the citizens of the State of Vermont, who can't even drive out of their flood-devastated region to buy food or get medical attention because their roads have all been washed out.
The problem for California HSR is primarily to buy the land required, not the construction itself. This is less an issue for most of Brightline West, as most of the track will be along or even in between an already existing highway and through the desert. And if anyone in the US knows how to build a HSR, then it’s Brightline, because they have just done it in Florida. Though I have to say that some of their construction „techniques“ seem very „antiquated“ when compared to how you would build HSR in Europe (or in China…)
Brightline didn't "build" a Highspeed line, they just upgraded already existing tracks and right of way and bought new equipment. That's like me putting a spoiler and some cool racing stickers on my 2011 Versa and calling it a supercar.
@@michlo3393 That‘s not exactly true. While they laid a second track on the existing right of way from Cocoa to Palm Beach, the track from Orlando Airport to Cocoa is really completely new!
circa 4 minutes, you say that the train will go from Vegas to Palm Springs. Palmdale, the actual destination, is west of Victorville and about 120 miles northwest of Palm Springs. Did you confuse Sanford, FL, the southern terminus for the Aoto train with Stanford? There are a number of pods that explore the proposed layout and why it is planned the way it is. You have never driven the LA region and Vegas on a Friday or Sunday,, have you?
6:55 OMG THANK YOU!!! Felt like I was the only UA-camr saying this. The timeline is ridiculous! 4 YEARS and you don’t even have a stable funding source??? Great Video!
Any LA resident who has done the drive to Vegas wants this Brighline train, as badly as we want high-speed rail to SF. LA transit metro lines run every 8-16 minutes. If you are quoting Metrolink commute rail schedules, well, every 60 minutes off-peak is normal. There are approximately infinite ubers in Vegas. Please don't use hyperbole to describe how "easy" it is just to drive around Vegas, LA and back and forth between. Thanks.
You're completely missing the point about needing connections to transit. This is a replacement for a flight and people have no qualms driving, getting a rental car, or Uber/Taxi to/from airports to finish the last leg of the journey. It will be no different for a suburban HSR station. Most people, especially well-off or at least middle class individuals taking inter-city transportation, aren't public transit die-hards. Private options and attempts at rail should be wholeheartedly welcomed, given how California HSR is going. At the very least if they fail, Amtrak can take over the service (once the capital/construction costs are already paid using private money!) That's literally what happened to AutoTrain and today it is Amtrak's highest revenue long-distance route.
Public transportation should be operated publically as a public good. The idea that infrastructure has to be profitable is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Yes, that's the perfect world, which the US is not, those leaning right want profitability, we want trains, why we have to do both, just reality, face it or keep dreaming.
@ncard00 If the right says that Public Transportation isn't supposed to be profitable, they're right. It's more a courtesy of transporting people without driving a car, and I see this as a good thing. Not everything has to be profitable, and a good amount of public transportation can help local businesses and people grow their wealth.
@@spookysenpai7642Yes, but baby steps, the rights don’t see this, and they’re in the oil, auto, and aviation industries pockets, but fully agree that the trains are more about giving people options, not reducing car use, but car dependency.
If you want to blame someone for our lack of rail, you have to blame our own government. Private companies are doing what the government would probably never accomplish in our lifetime at this rate. I don't really care how it gets funded and sustains itself, I just want decent rail service. The routes that Brightline and other private rail companies are focusing on are corridors with high profitability potential. Most routes in the US just wouldn't have enough riders to pay for the cost of operation. Brightline was also smart to buy up property around it's station and tracks and lease them to help pay for it. This model works elsewhere in the world, like in Japan, I don't see why it couldn't here.
From other video analysis I’ve seen on brightline west, some segments are double track and some are single track, so trains passing should be no issue. It will also be grade separated.
it's not completely single track, it's majority single track with passing sidings. However, there is space for full double tracking in the future, and the service is completely grade separated. Brightline simply wants to get the service up and running ASAP. Building 215 miles of double track in 3-3.5 years would be too much of an ask for any company, but it's still adequate to run hourly service in both directions.
The problem with Brightline service between southern California and Las Vegas is really the Rancho Cucamonga station location. The F.R.A. has designated the corridors as Los Angeles-to-Phoenix and San Diego-to-Las Vegas. So, the station should be located in San Bernardino where Metrolink passengers from L.A., Riverside, San Diego, and Orange Counties can transfer seamlessly to Brightline in order to reach Las Vegas. San Bernardino also has the Arrow light-rail line to and from the University of Redlands, as well as the sbX system between San Bernardino State and Loma Linda Universities. Additionally, San Bernardino International Airport lies just 1.5 miles east of the central station, so air-rail integration ought to be extremely easy. Furthermore, the City of San Bernardino owns and controls a 48-acre tract of property near the multimodal terminal, and that land is now available for a master developer to subdivide and build out. Rancho Cucamonga's Metrolink station, conversely, is a parking lot in the middle of huge arterial streets, large blocks, semi-trucks, warehouses, and nothing else.
Being from Denmark, I must admit that our rail system faces certain issues when compared to Western Europe. Recently, I had the opportunity to experience the Bright Line in Miami, and it made me realize something crucial. In the US, trains are treated more like planes, and this is true for Amtrak as well. The boarding process can be quite chaotic as the tracks are only revealed at the last minute, which feels inefficient thus a que is formed where a boarding agent directs people for what seems like for ever. Unlike Europe, where a single ticket card provides access to all types of transportation, here in the US, trains come with strict security checks and limited, pre-booked tickets for specific trains and times and companies. These differences might be few of the reasons why rail travel is more popular and successful in Europe and Asia.
Brightline is an extremely small, premium carrier, and you can't extrapolate your experience with it to anything else in the United States. Most of the issues you cite are actually features, designed to make the experience more premium, and to make upper-middle class passengers feel comfortable, safe, and secure when taking what is basically public transportation. Remember that BrightLine's Smart Class is supposed to be like Business Class, not Coach. Europe has multiple levels of service as well, but I'd guess that nearly every train starts with a coach-equivalent. You say that Amtrak trains are treated more like planes as well, but that's simply not true. I think that Acela has security, but I'm not even sure about that. Unless some other routes have started to upgrade, no other trains anywhere in the country have security. Amtrak's longer routes have ticketable seats in some or all classes, but many shorter routes either have optional seat reservations, or no seat reservations at all. There's a huge variety of service levels -- and quality of coaches. Nothing like BrightLine's coaches can be found in the Amtrak network (I'm not sure how Acela stacks up, but that would be it.) Also, most Americans want seat reservations for anything over an hour -- and I bet that many would pay $10 extra, or more, to reserve a specific seat on a trip lasting less than an hour, especially if you're traveling around and will have luggage with you. It's like a security blanket to us; we feel secure knowing that our seat is waiting for us, and we won't have to drag our bags through the train looking for a decent place to sit. If it felt more like an airplane to you, most Americans would say that's a good thing. Rather than presuming an economic outcome on extremely limited personal experience, consider that the culture here is very different, and you clearly do not understand all its nuances.
@@thoughtfulskeptic7529 You seem to have missed my point, and I won't repeat myself. My response is actually embedded within my initial statement. Perhaps it's essential to acknowledge that train travel will never offer a premium experience, and this is a significant reason for its struggles in the US. If someone desires a premium experience, they'll opt for an Uber. In Europe, even affluent individuals rarely use business class because it's not typically included in the common ticket card system. This system allows passengers to show up and take a train at their convenience, often at a lower cost than booking specific seats. Regarding security, I didn't claim that Amtrak has this aspect. I was pointing out that the existence of security measures on some trains is inefficient. I also shared my experience with gate agents checking tickets before boarding, which can be exceptionally slow and inefficient. Just to clarify, we didn't choose the Acela since, despite being a high-speed train, it's only 30 minutes faster from NY to DC and costs twice as much. It's worth recognizing that different cultures do things differently, and some cultures excel in certain aspects more than others. This is why cultural exchange has been a part of human history. I wasn't arguing that Brightline isn't a premium experience; I was emphasizing that combining a premium experience with the inefficiencies that come with it is a recurring issue that hampers rail travel in the United States. Lastly people seeking premium experiences typically opt for jets and cars. Trains are only profitable when they're operating at full capacity, and I can assure you that trains would be packed if they functioned similarly to those in Asia and Europe. The point I'm trying to make is substantiated by the straightforward fact that trains thrive in those regions of the world while struggling in America. Perhaps it's time to take some lessons from these successful models instead of clinging to the 'WE DO EVERYTHING GREAT IN AMERICA, WE DON'T NEED HELP FROM ANYONE, BUT EVERYONE NEEDS OUR HELP AND CULTURE' mentality. Maybe start understanding perspective and logical thinking before you throw your little temper tantrums on the internet about subjects you have no insight into :)
For all the reasons stated on this video, passenger rail service should be supported by the federal government just like our national highway system. Its about providing a service not about making money. You can even do a public private partnership where the government builds the infrastructure and private companies help to run it and they can make a reasonable profit. Most passenger rail systems around the world are heavily supported by their national governments. We need to do the same. Buying the tracks from freight companies that will be needed for passenger service is a start.
@@ThomasBomb45In the case of Brightline West, Caltrans owns the ROW and it leases the route. But I get your point. So the public retains control. Of course, if the lease is very friendly then it starts to become a subsidy. BLW will make their profits off of all the desert land development they own. The railroad is the conduit for business.
Yeah, no. It should be private companies that fund the majority of the project and then the government can step in to help provide some additional financial aid, since the increase in property values and business activity around the train stations will go to the government in taxes. The government would do best to have as little involvement as possible. It will allow more things to be done in less time, which saves on costs. And then finally the government can help with small amounts of funding and should focus on railway safety and regulations. The less government involvement the better, because it increases the possible profit incentive, which encourages further investment from private actors.
This video has some misleading statements regarding financing that makes it difficult to trust. XpressWest had been looking to use roughy $1.4 billion in private equity, not private funding. It was still looking to private debt markets for funding up to that roughly $7 billion estimate. There were possibilities of federal government funding, but even the Wiki page cited in the video refers to the financing of a federal loan (i.e., repayment is contractually obligated) and is not a payout. That is a big difference. For the Miami station, the payment by the county was specifically for the incremental station build out for tracks and space for the government run Tri Rail system to terminate there versus the airport today. For the Orlando station, it was intended to be built with government dollars, and Brightline will pay what is essentially access fees and other rental fees. So again, not a government payout.
Considering this is basically public transportation I don't see the issue with asking for PUBLIC MONEY.... we're really out here complaining about putting money into our country's actual development for the people and not just the military
Exactly!! Like where do some people expect our taxpayers dollars to go, if not to things like improving our infrastructure and our travel capabilities?
Oh Pacific Electric did this too in SoCal. They built pretty much every suburb in LA county but if you’ll notice the extensive railroad system is gone. Private rails don’t work, the land investment model is even worse. Trains are a service and too expensive to be ran for profit and should always be public. 😊
Given that the trains have been very busy after boca roton and avdentura opened and brightline might be adding more cars it probably will be profitable for many years to come. With all the sporting events in Orlando and Miami they definitely have a market of people who don’t want to drive or fly down to Miami
The Victorville station will be the spot that will make brightline the most money. There is a subway station in China that was built in the boondogs, everyone laughed at it. In less than a decade, it is surrounded by highrises and other buildings. Back in the past, that is how rail companies made money, they built a track to nowhere and built up stations and sold those plots and people came and built around the stations.
Transportation is a public good, it does not need to be profitable. It is rather dystopian how Brightline markets itself as a private railway, as though relying upon global private equity firms for public infrastructure is reassuring for snowbirds who have been indoctrinated with the belief that private therefore means good. The US decided to subsidize car travel in the 1950's and have put good money after bad ever since to destroy the social fabric of our towns and cities. A large swath of the developed world has subsidized rail travel and created vast networks of fast rail services. Florida had the opportunity to use the ROW as a proper high speed network, and there was even funding in place to do it, but Rick Scott turned it down (unlike all that Medicare fraud money that he kept for himself). You are absolutely right that if a system is subsidized, the public should have a stake in it, and a mechanism to have oversight. Treating rail as a novelty or a real estate gimmick is exactly what the people at the levers of power want, consumers to lack confidence in any of mode of travel that isn't supported by a massive lobby, which includes air travel along with the auto industry.
As European, I find high-speed diesel rail ridiculous. You are burning a lot of fuel for those speeds, while here nearly all major lines are electrified.
Brightline’s southern segment is already exceeding ridership projections and turning a profit. Incentives are given to private companies all the time. Florida has a huge tourism base and their tax dollars to spend.
Florida was a very different place when FEC decided to terminate passenger service in the late 1960s. The population has more than tripled since then with the growth disproportionately in the cities Brightline is connecting. Tampa to Miami should completely replace air travel on that route and be a gold mine. When FEC was operating there wasnt even a reason to connect Tampa to the system.
I’ll agree Brightline’s certainly ambitious, but considering the South Florida segment recently had its first operational profit, I don’t think Brightline’s going away anytime soon. But who knows what the future holds? It’s certainly looking bright for passenger rail.
Obviously you've never delt with Interstate 15 on weekends. It can take two hours just to go from San Bernardino to Victorville. I-15 is considered to have the worst accident rate in the state of California. Weekdays aren't much better. If Amtrak were to take over from Brightline West eventually, they would certainly run the service into the ground like they have everything else.
Exactly RoamingRailfan did a video on the BLW route and he thought the weekdays would offer relief from traffic but showed that he was in gridlock anyway.
This video is trying way too hard to find problems or issues with Brightlines plans and this naysaying really exposes the lack of transit oriented knowledge. For example taking issue with the fact that the Rancho Cucamonga station connects passengers to Metrolink to continue towards Union Station in L.A., as if routing partnerships aren't a standard practice in the airline industry with several individual airlines coming together to form alliances that provide increased service to more destinations. Its impossible for any one airline to operate on every possible route or market so strategically connecting passengers to a partner airline is a common practice in the airline industry. Brightline connecting to the Metrolink would be in the same vein.
I don't think that some people have a full grasp on the business model of Brightline. It wasn't designed for Americans, it was designed for Tourists from overseas. They will fry into Miami and leave from Orlando, or vise versa. And when Phase 3 is complete to Tampa another option is available. Tourists don't want to rent a car and deal with all of the extra costs. They get off the plane, get on a train and at their location in hours. This business model is alien to Americans, that is why many don't understand it.
@@qjtvaddicti’d much prefer a public agency that has to answer to taxpayers than a private company that leeches off tax money and basically has free rein to do whatever they want with their services. i feel like public transportation needs to be subsidized to work (and there’s nothing wrong with that). and private shareholders would eventually be too busy worrying about profits to keep things moving smoothly
13:05 This is why the Trancontinental was built in the first place, the government would pay the railways in barren land, and then they would put in a station which would give the land a whole lot more value.
Stating Brightline as overambitious is laughable when they depend on CA government infrastructure. Without the CAHSR investment, Brightline Vegas is useless. The tracks going into LA need to be modernized in order for these Brightline Vegas trains to operate. The funding for electrification for Metrolink will come from CAHSR. Why would anyone from LA drive over an hour to take a train to Vegas? Also, the last time I heard about Brightline Vegas was when they failed to sell bonds in CA for train funding. My only complaint so far is I wished they planned to build a stop in Barstow. The economic benefit for CA is marginal if you cannot connect their smaller towns to the railway. The entire reason for Brightline building this line is to bring money from LA to Vegas where they will own real estate. Nevada doesn't produce specialized workers who can afford the commute to LA. A main benefit I see for the train line is going to be building train stations in more affordable places for CA residents.
I'm actually in favor of this video; Brightline is a quasi-private railroad company, and honestly I'm a bit worried that the Brightline West will wither on the vine. It's actually nice to hear that some of the concerns expressed aren't too far off from reality. I want to believe that Brightline will succeed, but it's the cost overruns that makes me worry? If you're from my generation (Baby Boomer) we all saw how transportation companies came and went in the blink of an eye. I'm honestly worried that Brightline will be just a regional railroad company and that the Brightline West will likely flop. I guess we'll see what the future holds for Brightline?
Another thing, 125mph diesel trains aren't exactly cutting edge technology. Britain introduced them in 1975, and most of them have now been retired in favour of 140mph electric trains.
Electric catenary in a hurricane zone? Riiiiggggghhhhttt. Green, it depends on if people are actually silly enough to buy electric cars in a place where you may need to evacuate to another state on the drop of a hat.
@MysticRenn "A typhoon (台風, taifū) is a large low pressure system, originating over the northwest Pacific Ocean. It is accompanied by strong winds of up to around 200 km/h, a rise of the sea level and torrential rainfalls. Over the Atlantic Ocean, typhoons are known as hurricanes." About 30 typhoons form each year over the northwest Pacific Ocean, of which an average of about seven or eight pass over Okinawa Prefecture, and about three hit the Japanese main islands, especially Kyushu and Shikoku. But any region of Japan, including Tokyo, Osaka and Hokkaido can be visited by typhoons." - Japan Guide, Typhoons Anyone who's any idea about Japan's geology or meteorology knows that Japan is in a tropical storm zone much like Florida. Hurricanes are thus not an excuse.
When and if brightline comes out to socal they’re going to have some issues with cajon pass. Cajon has heavy speed restrictions due to high grades and I don’t know how they could build around canon pass. Plus we already have Amtrak and Metrolink.
Personally, i dont see the hype around brightline, it just seems like another rail company were going to give billions in subsidys whos business model they stole off of japan.
Your video should mention that Metrolink can run many more trains from Los Angeles to Rancho Cucamonga, if demand exists, because most of the Metrolink San Bernardino line is ex-Pacific Electric to Claremont, and east of Claremont, it is the former Santa Fe passenger mainline that carries little freight traffic. The only real problem is that most of the ex-Pacific Electric portions are in the middle of I-10, which will be difficult to double-track, even though the railroad was present long before the freeway was built.
Look at the checkerboard pattern of the West, where railroad companies got alternating sections of public land for building key lines back in the 19th century.
8:02 while in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed train every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of toll roads 40% cheaper than in other countries
China is building passenger trains to free up their freight lines (one just built) for coal. It's working great, Chinese CO2 increases are off the chart and increasing monthly as new power plants are built. As far as cost, would you be willing to help build a passenger railway if someone knocked on your door this evening? In China, you would not have a choice, off you go.
China does not have their own National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA like we do. Any of these publicly funded and privately run transportation projects have to go through piles and piles of scrutiny before a shovel is placed in the ground. This includes Social and Environmental Justice issues which can grind a project to a halt. China just takes your land and if you don't move, a bullet will find you pretty quick!!
"China makes ... 1.000 Miles of high speed train every year..." Nope. Xi's government has banned any new HSR rail construction since 2020.....because the provinces constructed most of HSR lines on borrowed money backed by the "profits" on real estate sales to developers. But with the collapse of China's real estate bubble, those loans are turning increasingly toxic. The Chinese central government is taking the hard line that the provinces and development banks must sort this out.....and China is starting to see bank failures and provinces begging hat-in-hand to their local industries to fund basic services.
Not particularly important, but three railroads didn't join Amtrak; Southern, Rio Grande, and Rock Island. Railroads were both passenger and freight before Amtrak. Passenger railroads didn't go out of business, railroads simply dropped passenger service, joined Amtrak, or operated their own passenger trains (Southern, Rio Grande, Rock Island).
Why do you say it´s ´scummy´? There is nothing wrong with government paying towards the country´s infrastructure. As for the real estate thing, I don´t see any problem there either. You seem to be searching for reasons with Brightline will fail, but I think it´s actually a real great achievement and hope to see more such train routes and stations being built throught the US, reducing the need for people to drive or fly.
If Brightline West actually went downtown, maybe it might work. They can just cancel the MCO-Tampa Section and divert any funds from that to finish Brightline West or simply keep the company stable. Would be cool to restore the ROW between Sarasota and Naples (Venice's station still exists w/o track and a segment from Lakeland that goes by Punta Gorda to Bonita Springs that could be expanded and upgraded should Tampa and ultimately a second Miami line from Fort Myers that connects to the main line by West Palm's airport)
I used to have to drive from Naples to Fort Lauderdale multiple times a week. If I could have just taken a train and chill for the whole route I would have been fucking thrilled. Alligator Alley isn't as exciting as it sounds to drive.
BL East is angling for a partnership with Sunrail west of MCO, so public funding. Interest rates high. But new owner with money, Mubadala, took over from SoftBank.
It seems that Brightline’s business model is similar to a tech startup’s. Invest a lot of money up front, run the business at a loss, exit the business through a sell-off to another entity that will worry about making it profitable. The entity in this case will be the government/Amtrak which will be blackmailed into overpaying for Brightline just to avoid eliminating the existing passenger service.
The biggest laugh from Brightline West is that they are delusional to think that they can build an entirely new high speed electrical train corridor in 4 years. In order for that to realistically happen, they would need multiple crews working simultaneously on small sections of the entire corridor . Also working in the middle of a busy interstate is not easy either.
Amtrak is in far worse shape than fans like to believe. They have finally run out of Superliners, diners to be exact. Their Acela replacement trains won't stay on the track, the Airo train sets don't fit into their service bays, the Chargers freeze up in cold weather because they didn't realize tunnel motors can both cool AND warm the intakes, and now they need new long distance passenger cars, and there are none to be had. So what do the fans do? They make up excuses, "oh propeller head hates trains", and isn't that a pile of journal packing? So Brightline. Why. A while back, the Feds wanted to gift out large sums of money, but Florida didn't want the debt piled up on their books (you had to pay it back). Oddly enough, Florida doesn't like debt, and boy did that pay off with COVID. Anyway, Brightline stepped up and found a way to make Florida's boom from refugees fleeing the Northeast and arriving in Florida build a free railroad. Did you know that the Southeast's economy is now bigger than the Northeast's and growing fast? So much for the Northeast Corridor. Anyway, Brightline was in the right place, had the sense to just buy off the shelf Siemens cars, and didn't set profitability as a goal. Sure making a profit happened already, but that was only a pleasant surprise.
Re brightline west not having public transit at either end: LA is doing a ton of public transit upgrades leading up to the Olympics, so at least that half of the equation is moving in the right direction. I actually suspect that if a branch of this is going to fail, it’s more likely to be the Florida route, so long as the LA-LV route can actually get built.
They keep making design decisions that put short-term profit over long-term functionality and long-term profit. Grade-crossings, low speed, and diesel in Florida. No tunnels, sharp curves that lower speeds, steep grades that can’t sustain icy conditions, and odd station locations on the Las Vegas line. Florida’s line is too slow and too expensive to compete with driving. Renting a car is faster door-to-door and more economical for one person in Florida, and way more economical for families. True high-speed could have addressed this.
I don't know why they are trying to expand into California when they aren't done in Florida. I hope, as your title implies, that they aren't biting off more than they can chew.
@@Ven100 Yeah I'm finding that out. It's unfortunate for an urbanism channel, but not entirely unexpected. It gets the views and arguments increase user engagement stats.
So, brightline’s business plan is the same as Henry Huntington’s with Pacific Electric “red car”. Then again, Hong Kong Metro is quite successful with this model
Brightline tickets to Orlando are SO EXPENSIVE, and the times are stupid. They need a special theme park Express day train, one that arrives early enough and leaves late enough to make a day trip from Miami/fort Lauderdale to Disney/universal possible. If they had that the $100 ticket might be worth it since doing driving day trips to Orlando is exhausting and dangerous to drive home tired so would be great to be able to nap on the way up and sleep on the way back
The brightline is nice but its just not affordable for working people really. Its more of a urban transit like if u need to go from miami to west palm quick because the trirail has more stops.
Plenty of people use Brightline for working commutes. The monthly pass between West Palm Beach to Miami works out to $9 per ride. All anyone has to do is look at the early morning rush hour WPB departures to see. What once were hourly departures of 5:36am, 6:36am, 7:36am became 5:36, 6:36, 6:51, 7:04 and 7:36am. Some of the trains were also extended in length. Tourists aren't getting up between 5-6am to take a train to Miami. Those are workers. I looked at one of those 6:36am trains about a month ago and it was 85% booked. Just last weekend I took Brightline and paid $20 roundtrip from WPB to Miami. The $79 prices to Orlando are also reasonable as they're lower than flights. Greyhound/Flixbus charges $35-$55 from MCO to Downtown Miami with a 5 hour timetable.
YES! like part of the demise of the North shore line (a private interurban line from Chicago to Milwaukee (would reach 90mph in service)) was in part that the larger company that owned it was like the profit margins aren't good enough, So let's scrap it! I agree that someday Fortress will scrap Brightline, or beg Amtrak to take it over once the Real estate development ROI have come in or the real estate has no further growth potential. Brightline West I have no faith, there website says NEARLY Shovel ready! So I bet there is design work still needed to be done. And if anyone is to learn from California HSR, that you should have everything planned out first, Instead designing as you build. Designing while building will only get you cost overruns and late delivery dates. So I don't see how they can Start this year in Q4. When they admitted themself that they'll need to build a mile a day, and I don't think you can do that in a middle of a highway median. They'll have to replicate a task that hasn't been done since the transcontinental railroad! IF they do get started and some how get the line built, I will bet they will operate at a max speed of 110mph or something lower then 150mph or 180mph or 200mph (whatever max they say they'll run at right now). With the 4 years construction window they won't have the time to let the FRA certify them with special exceptions that would be needed to run faster than any train in North America currently can go since there is no precedence for anything above 155mph here! I disagree I think the Las Vegas station is not in a good spot! After visiting Las Vegas, last year in June, it was 110°F in the day and 98° at night... it's almost impossible to walk there, and the walking infrastructure sucks. and the little transit they have is always late. The current Bus route "the Deuce" doesn't even run that far south on Las Vegas Boulevard. and there is a lot of lobbies agent that useless monorail, it doesn't even go to the airport and it's in the back of the one side of the strip. Las Vegas needs REAL transit, but until that miracle happens, bright line will need it's own fleet of cars to provide to "last mile" transportation for people's final destination.
maybe this is a stupid question, but if brightline wants to fold and abandon its passenger service at some point in the future, would they have to petition the STB? and would they have the option to give their rolling stock to amtrak just like back in the day? or has all that regulation gone away?
I see Brightline Florida as being really successful. I don't see Brightline West being successful at all... Victorville to the edge of Las Vegas south of the airport... WTF? Has to go direct to LA Union Station and to the Strip (north of the Welcome to LV sign).
The potential for mass rail transit has existed for ever. I wonder why we haven't installed high speed rail over the median strips on the expressways. Should be able to accomplish. It could be elevated. Just wondering.
I must call BS at 12:22. It's absolutely unfair to show a graph of Class 1 railroad data and then a picture of right-of-way from a Class 3 railroad, probably one of the notoriously bad ones. That's straight-up deception. In my lifetime the main line through the city where I live has gone from old, worn jointed rail with poor ballast to welded rail with concrete ties and very nice white ballast, and the company has started double tracking sections of their line which never had been as far as I can tell. Even out in the tiny towns in the west of the state the Class 1 rails I saw were in pretty good condition. The short lines who run on shoestring budgets are another story, but even there the quality is mixed rather than universally awful.
The class 1s definitely let a lot of their infrastructure decay, but that’s mostly due to way too much investment into the auto industry by the government making smaller/shorter train routes less profitable. Also it’s much more important for passenger rail to be fast than freight, so overall I completely agree, just wish the federal and state governments would support private passenger rail more
The author failed to discuss the other major issues facing Brightline... No mention of the potential for CA & NV attacks on the trains by Indians and the potential loss of passenger scalps... Also, in FL, no mention is made of the potential for the railroad stations to be overrun by alligators and pythons... Certainly, those are things that should have been described earlier in the video...
@@UrbanDox It's because of the wye to Palmdale to connect to CAHSR. Take out a map and look at LA County - it has the Northeast corner in the Antelope Valley. Palmdale/Lancaster both pay 3 LA County sales taxes for transit, but the LA Metro system doesn't touch them. In exchange, the state agreed to a highway connecting victorville to Palmdale, but then it got cancelled. Meanwhile, CA High Speed Rail took a detour via Palmdale as a consolation prize, and they had to repurpose the high desert corridor funding - which will go into rail instead of a new freeway. BUT it won't work if they put the station in victorville, so to get the permitting through the high desert, they had to agree to integrate on the high desert corridor wye.
@@PDXLibertarian When BLW bought the rights from the previous company, Victorville was the end point on the CA side. BLW added Rancho Cucamonga in order to sell bonds. When Victorville was the end stop bond sales were dead on arrival.
Ah the Naysayers, the opportunity to move forward is now. I've watched with interest how fast rail has been preposed to connect by tunnels and bridges the whole world. Ask the French and the English if the Chunnel should have been built
California High-Speed Rail does not use contractors for construction. That work is being done by the authority itself and the workers are employed by the authority. I think the conclusion in this video was decided upon first and then the facts were shaped to support it.
Leasing out mixed use real estate in the station area is probably the key. Recurring revenue stream, which attracts residents who then also financially support the transit lines because they are so close/convenient. It’s a self-sustaining cycle of profitability. JR (Japan Rail) comes to mind. If you cost cut (cutting real estate OR transit quality), you lose customers for one or the other, and you lose the feedback cycle, losing customers for both, and you go into bankruptcy. Hopefully the Brightline/Fortress execs can figure that out. SoftBank certainly should understand, as a Japanese company.
Miami to Disneyworld has to be a hit. What has changed since private railways going bankrupt: heavy traffic and the inconvenience/expense of short flight.
Yes, and people caring about "green" travel, and valuing their time. Why even Amtrak's old LA to Vegas 7+ hour service would be amazing today, compared to the 90's, these are different times.
@@ncard00 Hey floridian here, more specifically a miami dweller. Idk how it is where you guys are but most of us over here couldn't give a FUCK about green travel or wtv. What alot of people that arent from MIA or LA understand or remember are the gas prices too. ITS INSANELY EXPENSIVE to drive from Miami to orlando and then back almost (for reference it costs me $60 just to drive from where im at to west palm beach and back) , the Brightline train saves us stress of driving in Miami (which is like no other state) and money.
I'm sure you guys over in LA has similar if not much more expensive prices which would entice you to take a train.
@@SetiPrimeSorry, but I live in Copenhagen in Denmark, Scandinavia, so I can’t relate to your US philosophies, but travelling stress free, and giving people and alternate way to tragel, cheaper, and reducing car dependency, are just other added benefits you get with Brightline. And actually, I don’t care about the climate either, but I do about reducing noise and air pollution, reducing travel times, and removing cars and traffic from the roads.
@@ncard00 Godbless brother🙌
@@SetiPrime LA loves their cars. Trains don't go where people need to go, not like Wash D.C. and NYC.
Using rail systems as a real estate play is common around the world, especially in Asia. It has been done in Hong Kong and Japan, to give two examples.
In fact, this was commonly done in the United States during the early years of railroads in the western half of the country in the 19th century.
WAS and NYP station rebuilds are an attempt at private investment, more awkward with all the stakeholders and politics and costs. In both cases private interests already own various air rights, but the negotiations spill out into public view. Good thing or not. We need more journalism to decode the complexities, technical, political, not just a medium long article every so often.
This guy doesn't understand the whole business concept of Brightline...it's about the real estate, all about the real estate(which is actually in control of the real estate around the stations).
You're forgetting that even the "best" examples of funding rail with real estate are famously messy and considered a boondoggle by the locals.
Hong Kong is a fully government controlled system in a "country" where literally all the land is owned by the government and merely leased to real estate developers. Yes, this was the case even before China took over Hong Kong. That system is rife with corruption, waste, and inequities.
The system in Japan works slightly better but is also a mess of government corruption, the yakuza, and local crony corporations screwing over the locals. Their rail companies regularly go bankrupt to force a government bailout. Then they take the money are run with seemingly zero punishment. Let's not forget that the vaunted Shinkansen system is still just a single line running the length of the country. In Europe their state subsidized networks already form dense lattices of HSR service with countless connections and innovative service patterns. In Japan the whole system is stagnating and waiting to be overcome by Europe and China. Poor little Spain now has a better network than Japan. That doesn't just happen. That's a systemic problem. You don't just lose the top spot in a game that you literally invented yourself.
@@TohaBgood2At least for Hong Kong, getting land for construction of a new line and station is never a problem. And many of the station got mall owned by mtr nearby, some even real estate. Hell lotus park station exist solely for real estate.
The mess of mtr lies with construction over budgets, and lately subpar quality (that force station to be reinforced)
At least railway wise, the mess simply isn't the result of mtr real estate model. And corruption in that area is rather minimal.(All that comes through construction contracts during construction of station and real estate, and legally)
The system issue in itself is caused by large percentage government revenue come from selling land, and as a result new construction and flat etc all become expensive.
MTR corporation works rather well given its model. Real estate is never the reason behind failure of them in some of the area.
I can't say for Japan tho since i don't live in japan.
@@789know The real estate is the only directly valuable part of the MTR. How do you think the people that the MTR is displacing feel about it being "easy to get land"?
The main reason California high speed rail is taking so long is not the training, it's the land acquisition which is labourious and takes a lot of time. Not to mention the lack of total funding for the project so it's very stop and start.
Brightline west at least has the central reservation rights in between the highway for a significant portion of the journey which should reduce this risk.
The Organisation of CAHSR has also never developed the capacity to use more than $2bn in a calendar year Partly because they never expect to have that much funding to accelerate delivery. CAHSR is a disaster in Terms of staging, they would have been far better starting with high Speed commuter line upgrades in SF-SJ-Gilroy and Burbank-LA Union-Annaheim first, then connecting Gilroy to Bakersfield and Sacramento, and LA Union to San Diego, then finally if the demand is there connecting Bakersfield to Burbank.
It's only ambitious because it's in the USA. Unless the USA understands this and opens itself up to improvement, it will get left behind on the world stage.
Already is. Example one, New York subways is just a crumbling mess.
@@Aaron-is9xo why blame transit when other factors are affecting it?
The World Stage is crumbling under their choice to fixate on railroads. France is dead broke, and will need to raise retirement age to pay for all the subsidies. Now that they actually have to pay their NATO dues to the Americans, expect even more belt tightening. Even Germany is concerned they should have joined the British Commonwealth instead of the EU.
@@tonyburzio4107 so the US isn’t experiencing all that? You think you are immune to those things?
@@ianhomerpura8937 the world is a mess
I agree that Brightline not connecting to any other transit systems is a downside. However In Florida, Brightline has a solution for limited transit from the stations. They offer Brightline+, there own car service to/from the stations and I assume they will do the same in Las Vegas. I think Brightline+ will take you anywhere within 5 miles of the station for a small up charge on a basic ticket. It really helped boost their Florida service.
Brightline FL connects to the Fort Lauderdale bus terminal since that's where the Fort Lauderdale station is. Brightline Miami station was constructed to house Tri-Rail on the other side. Upon leaving Brightline Miami, you can access Miami mass-transit services very quickly outside of Brightline+.
@@Ven100getting on Miami metro from BL Miami central is easy, but is really confusing because you have to walk like ten minute even though they r next door because they put fences on everything for no reason
@@carverjohnson2941 It's literally a 2 minute walk. Exit the Brightline Miami station and go W on NW 6th ST. Turn right on the first street and you'll run right into the MetroRail Orange line with escalators. I don't remember any fences there closing that street down and I just took Brightline last weekend.
Either late this year or early next year trip rail will connect directly into Miami central station, as well a the local metro rail in Miami. There's an entire side/section of the station just for those passengers to connect to downtown Miami. Plus a commuter rail company which is planning on building out more stations along Brightlines tracks to facilitate things. In fort Lauderdale the central buss hub is right next to the brightline station, then you have shuttles that will pick you up and drop you off from the airport, with integration to Uber for premium guests. If I'm not mistaken in West Palm and Miami there are bikes available to rent and ride, used to have scooters in Miami which I think they'll be bringing back. The list goes one brightline has taken the steps to make it as easy as possible to get around. I forgot about the circuit shuttles that take you within 3 miles of the station which is usually the downtown city center where everything is happening.
Upon leaving the Bright line in West Palm Station an electric bus, I believe the six seater meets the train and takes you to almost anywhere in West Palm or Palm Beach.
The idea that Metrolink will serve as an adequate final leg into LA is really questionable if they don’t make drastic service adjustments and additions to the SB line.
Totally, and I doubt they will do anything
@@UrbanDox15 min frequencies should do the thing and brightline west can extend to San Diego
@@qjtvaddict BLW should make an unsolicited proposal to take over CAHSR phase 2 development.
@@UrbanDox the word on the street in LA circles is that the Metrolink board is apparently set to vote on a proposal to run the San Berdoo line on DMU's at 30 min intervals
The best solution is electrifying and doubling SB line and extend Brightline West service to LA Union Station using them, similar to Caltrain in San Francisco.
Brightline Florida will be strong for many many years as it's really a game changer for transportation in the state. With further expansions within Florida it will provide much needed relief from highway traffic as more and more people move to the state. Speaking of Brightline West .... Brightline knows how to build a railroad and has skilled workers who will get the job done on time.
BLW has signed contracts with the local unions in California and Neveda.
What if everyone moves out of the state?
You mean taken off by alien spacecraft? It'd fill right back up from all the refugees from failed liberal cities like New York and Chicago.
@@themoviedealers That will not happen, at least in Florida.
They know how to build a railroad that has had a head start. When I see an actual high speed railway built by Brightline, I'll be inclined to agree then.
I do agree that Brightline is a bit too confident about itself. However, I don't really mind that they use real estate to generate income for their railway services. If we take a look at one of those profitable rail services providers around the globe (JR groups, MTR etc) they all generate income to support their services by selling lands around their stations or developed those land themselves.
No matter the means, more, cheaper, better, faster and greener trains is always better.
You have it upside down, the railroad funnels profits for their real estate. Think Pacific Electric.
I'd like to add that companies like JR do not do real estate to fill in losses incurred by the rail lines, but to increase passenger numbers to make the lines even more profitable.
Yea developing all the land around stops is why it’s terrible for Florida. The amount of development happening in Florida is absolutely terrible and why our waterways are struggling so bad.
BL needs to focus on getting complete grade separation along their entire route, as well as keeping their priority focused on expanding in Florida in my opinion
It literally will have no grade crossings as it is being built in the middle of the freeway.
Agreed
They meant in Florida
Seeing idiots in cars get t boned by Brightline because of their lack of patience around crossings, well, they brought it upon themselves. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
@@snoopyloopy As other mentioned, he is talking on Brightlin Florida.
A train going 110 mi/h that has 156 at grade rail crossings in mostly urban area is a recipe to disaster, not to mention delays that will make this line less reliable thus less used. Brightline West must be fully grade separated as from 125 mi/h US regulations requires full grade separation, which is what they did in Florida from Cocoa to Orlando airport (from 111 mi/h-125 at grade is allowed but from that speed presence detection tied to PTC is mandatory. for 80-110 it depends on evaluation of each crossing so they upgrade those crossings to adapt to the 110 mi/h speed.
Just found out about this channel yesterday, and it has some pretty good content. You do a good job explaining the situation at hand, and I get that there are inheritly profit related risks with private corporations, but there are three main things I would like to point out that makes Brightline stand out.
1. Brightline is *mostly* privately funded. Even though it doesn't cover the whole cost, it's still a significantly lower price for state/local governments to pay than the full price tag. The Orlando Airport extension was also funded through highway funds since the ROW was built along highway property, so this project and Brightline West are good ways for the private and public sectors to work together on funding public transit.
2. Brightline is NOT, I repeat, *N O T* anything like the Auto Train. This company only and still does run ONE train a day between its termini on worn down track, as their Louisville track was terribly maintained to the point where it was risky to run there without derailing. Brightline's ROW has been recently refurbished for 125mph operations as they provide incredible frequencies at one train per hour since its 1st day of service. Most commuter rail or Amtrak lines don't get anywhere close to that frequency except the Northeast Regional. Even Amtrak's proposed Florida service recently announced to rival Brightline will only be 1 tph.
3. Passenger Rail by itself, when done right, *IS* profitable. Real estate development helps as well since basically every single railroad in North America utilized the same tactic of land development near a railroad, but having a reliable and frequent service that millions of people can conveniently use to go from one town center to another will make it relied upon so much that the profits outrun the costs, as Brightline recently announced two months ago that their passenger services became profitable (an article that's conveniently missing from this video). Various long distance, intercity and commuter rail lines were in fact profitable in the past, but we almost never hear about it because the corporate executives at the time wanted nothing to do with the public in order to save a buck, and you don't hear about profitable passenger rail in history books since they favor other modes of transport such as cars and planes to make sure that no one even thinks about investing in the better alternative.
As you can tell, I'm a huge fan of Brightline as its business model, although not perfect, is incredibly efficient of bringing high quality passenger service to any part of the country, even if it means revitalizing an existing ROW instead of building a new one, as Brightline's profitable and luxurious service has earned it the title of the best passenger railroad in the U.S.; something that I can also attest to as someone who also recently rode Brightline in addition to almost 30 other Amtrak routes. Otherwise, good job on making this video, and I can't wait to see what you'll cover next.
I agree. Also, on the other side of the world, Japanese passenger rail companies are all privately owned. They utilize a similar tactic with real-estate around their stations and track. That proves this model can work if done right.
This comment is incorrect. The best privately funded passenger rail in the world pales in comparison to mediocre passenger rail that's state funded. Always has been the case.
@@BlakeB415 Japanese rail has infrastructure funded and built by the government, and is heavily regulated to stop the private companies from dropping any service. Very bad example.
@@duncanholden2826 Not exactly true. Yes, there's government oversight when it comes to servicing. However, It's a mix of government and private funds to build out infrastructure, and in JR Group's case (more it's member companies), they own and operate most of the tracks they run on.
@@BlakeB415 it was developed under the nationalized system adn the private companies have only hurt service, there's intense local lobbying to get them to drop service as it needs local approval. Japan is a nationalized rail success story and their subsequent failures are a cautionary tale to those wanting to privatize anywhere in the world.
10:00 Metrolink's SCORE program is already in affect taking shape, and will have 30 minute off peak headways, and 15 minute rush hour head ways in both directions by 2027-2028. Lots of progress has already been made and the SB line is set to be one of the first electrified routes in Phase 3 of SCORE. LA Metros A line is also set to be extended all the way to the new Rancho station eventually. Personally, I may be a little biased because I live along Soledad, but I think Brightline should have came into LA through Soledad Pass it may have been an easier time to get them a direct route into LAUS. Good exclamations and points raised.
What would the Acton NIMBYs say?
@@vincentperez4653 Lol that's true. There is a little corridor in the median of the 14 freeway from the Sierra Highway overpass to the Escondido overpass so that can bypass most of Acton
If it would take that route, it would probably use the California High Speed Rail tracks from Palmdale to LA. My guess it they chose Rancho Cucamonga, because there is at least some connection available when they're planning to start service (Ok, there is also a Metrolink to Palmdale but that would take longer) and they don't want to wait for CSHR. And if CHSR builds the route to San Diego, it could still connect to that in Ontario.
PS The Japanese railroad companies offset their costs and increase their profitability through their real estate holdings as well as other enterprises. That is probably where the idea for Brightline got its model. Not sure if this applies, but where the light rail is installed, property values go up. Charlotte NC is an example of that.
It's not just Japan but that's the most notable example in recent history. The USA did it too, just as every other country which has had rail because it just makes sense to do so
@@wetsock6334 I was thinking about that, too, but the economics 150 years ago didn't seem applicable to the current reality. I hear you. The various JR business models seem more relevant -- although I suspect like the UK there will need to be some re-nationalization in the future.
That's because all the money that's supposed to support public facilities went into politicians' and bean counters' pocket. They scale down projects, they cause delay in permits, and they progress slowly. They also divert money away from public safety and public transit to proven-failing poverty or housing programs.
The public transit and surrounding facilities has to be "bright shinny" clean, "bullet-free and drug-free" safe, and "reaching anywhere" convenient. And if you think that's impossible, that's exactly how public transit in Japan, Korea, China look like. Even 1-2AM people still have minimal concerns while in those areas. Here all transit and transit stations look filthy, streets full of unsafe homelessness.
And politicians here keep grouping them together with those valid homeless people who stay away from downtowns to keep themselves drug-free. The "equality" in politicians' mouth is nothing but a propaganda to raise money and it kills "fairness" as well as making everyone fail together. They never understand that if they can convert 20% more homeless into working class, they gain in tax instead of spend more on them. Their stupid rules both make valid homeless people to benefit and get out of those programs, and make the drugging homeless not participating at all.
@@mingchi1855 In Japan, Florida, elsewhere?
I get where you were going with the auto train comparison, but we gotta remember that these are two completely different types of train services. The auto train was a long distance car-hauling train while Brightline is intercity rail. Of course an auto train is not going to be running every hour like an intercity service would. And from the looks of it, the auto train didnt really go to places where high amounts of people would use it. It’s definitely not like it went between New York and Chicago. Brightline on the other hand is trying to connect nearly all of Florida’s major cities, two of the world’s most popular amusement parks, and is trying to compete with cars by providing 110-125mph running. Same for Brightline West, fast service connecting two major tourist cities in the west. Now I do agree the victor valley station is poorly placed, and that they should go all the way to LA. However, Metrolink is increasing service frequencies on all of its lines over the coming years with its SCORE project, and the San Bernardino line is planned to be one of the first Metrolink lines to be electrified. Even if BL doesn’t go to LA right away, that doesn’t mean it won’t go to LA ever. If the line does pull through and eventually extend to LA and maybe even Phoenix in the future, I see it being a huge success. It will be much more attractive over driving as it will be faster than driving and flying. Amtrak is barely doing the work to provide more intercity/high speed rail. Although I don’t think there should be more private rail companies, they do provide a great opportunity to show what makes rail superior to driving and flying and could jumpstart Amtrak to try to provide a better service so that they can prosper as well
The single track in I-15 median is the problem. It needs to be double tracked, but they can't get that past CEQA.
If the schedules are well designed and there are adequate passing areas with double tracks, single tracking the remainder of the route should be fine.
It's all about getting the trains running asap, and then upgrade the system afterwards.
There is more than enough room to double-track in the median north of Yermo. It would also be simple enough to go outside the median between Barstow and Victorville if a double-tracked section is needed.
CHSR is planned for single track along it's entire un-built route.
@tonyburzio4107 No it isn't. Single-tracking was a proposal the CAHSR board considered for a bit back when their funding picture was far less clear. They dropped the idea the moment Biden signed the big Infrastructure Bill
There are literally mile long backups between Los Angeles and Las Vegas EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND, you can bet a vast majority of those people would choose to take a train vs driving, because once people reach Vegas they don't need their car to drive around, you walk the Strip.
Except of course, there is no possible way for Brightline West to cross Cajon Pass on their current construction budget (hint; 6 miles of 6% grade on I-15)...
....and there is no way that LA residents are going to drive to Victorville, only to park their car and ride a train the rest of the way, at a price that is the same as taking a low-cost airline from BUR, ONT, SNA, LGB, or LAX.
@@ilikehardplay L.A. residents do not have to drive to Victorville...the western terminus has been extended over Cajon Pass into San Bernardino and a direct connection with MetroLink. Even with all the flights between SoCal and Vegas I15 still ends up with mutliple hours long back ups almost every weekend(it looks like a parking lot), and the marketing survey has already been done...the passenger volume is there.
@@zaklex3165 ".the western terminus has been extended over Cajon Pass into San Bernardino and a direct connection with MetroLink. "
That's what Brightline's press releases claims they can do. They still have not shown anyone the engineering that will allow them to run trains over I-15 Cajon Summit median, whose grades include miles at 6% and whose curves are too tight for railroad use. Not to mention an agreement in hand from the state of California to let them attempt it. Press releases are cheap and easy. Laying track.....is much less so.
I don't doubt there is a market for "a better way to Las Vegas" than the current I-15 weekend gridlock. (that's why Northern Pacific Airline is leaping into the ONT-LAS market, and Breeze Airways is offering flights from San Bernardino to Vegas for $29-39 O/W ), I simply doubt that Brightline has the engineering to get over Cajon Pass in an affordable fashion.
@@ilikehardplay AFAIK Brightline isn't using the I15 corridor over Cajon Pass, that's only for the portion from Victorville to Vegas...it would presume they're negotiating with the BNSF and/or UP for access to their rights of way over Cajon Pass, both of which are designed for a railroad.
@@zaklex3165: "AFAIK Brightline isn't using the I15 corridor over Cajon Pass,..."
That's what their press flacks have previously claimed...
"...i would presume they're negotiating with the BNSF and/or UP for access to their rights of way..."
Good luck with that. Between tBNSF & UP and their four lines, they average 100-200 trains a day. (+ Amtrak's E&W-bound "Southwest Chief"), most of those moves are enormous drags of double-stack diesel hauled freight. There is no chance that either company would voluntarily mix in high speed passenger service among their 15-30 MPH freight trains. And catenary wires? Don't make me laugh. Double stacks and auto racks don't fit under catenary. And neither railroad are going to let a third-party tie up a track installing it in a multi-year project. Not to mention that the route is optimized for LOW speed service, with curves that would prove challenging for 90 MPH operations....let alone HSR speeds.
Add to it that there is NO HSR train set that meets current FRA buff-strength requirements for passenger and freight equipment sharing the same line. FRA's tentative approval for CalTrain line sharing requires absolute time isolation....with a no mixed operation, and complete line inspection that the line is clear for change of service. No way that would work on Cajon.
Amtrak's rights on Cajon are grandfathered in ....as well as ONE Vegas train each way a day because of the discontinued Desert Wind's previous operation. But that can't transfer that to anyone else, and just one train each way a day would be a fast route to bankruptcy for Brightline.
To be clear, Brightline used all private capital. Aventura and Boca are not part of the original plan. Broward and Palm Beach counties offered to pay for the stations on their own.
Also, the OIA Intermodal Center is a FDOT project since almost before AAF. Brightline just built connecting track.
This is all very public knowledge.
Yeah this youtuber has no clue what he's talking about...
Hi, I know that public transportation being private is usually a bad thing, but seeing how painfully slow building trains in north America is, Brightline doing it's own thing might even be good, because it's showing what would be possible if someone took things in their own hand and accepted the risks of running passenger rail. And the fact that it's partially subsidized by tax money actually makes sense to me, as the communities around Brightline profit from it, so it's not a bad investment for them.
Here in Europe we do have several private railways, some of them running on fully public infrastructure and directly competing with public services and it does work, it helps keeping prices low for example. Between Barcelona and Madrid there are around 7 operators, some of them public, some private, and some even owned by the french or the Italian railways...
and in Austria there is Westbahn, which directly competes with public trains, yet both services get enough ridership to expand and run more frequently. And Westbahn is even integrated with the Klimaticket, which is a unified public whole-year ticket for the whole country (or just one state, depends on what you want). And it's fully private as far as I know...
Edit: also, once people's recognize the value of passenger train services it will not be that easy to close Brightline. Yes, if Softbank or the fortress company decided to stop cash flow there would be some rough years for Brightline. But I would expect the government to buy Brightline and continue at least some kind of service, like they did with the old operators and Amtrak. But also, I'm European, things that I took for granted are usually a privilege in north America regarding public transportation...
Yeah, the public sector has failed, why the private sector needs to step in, just reality.
And even if the private sector fails/brightline goes under, Amtrak could just buy the route. Literally a free gift of a big chunk of the infrastructure costs from the private sector, just like the rest of the system and the AutoTrain.
@@ncard00 "failed" in that it is legally prevented from succeeding. The private sector already failed in the same space, so this is a shaky argument.
Brightline owns a lot of property around it's stations and track. This helps pay for it's operations and expansion. It's a similar technique that is used by Japanese railroad companies.
The major difference is that the federal government owns the infrastructure. Here, in the USA, the infrastructure is privately owned for the most part.
I hope Brightline West becomes successful.
It will, people want trains now more than ever cause of cost, climate, and time savings.
The window is small, however, electric cars will shift climate advantages back to private automobiles.
@@tonyburzio4107 Climate benefits aren't necessary though, the time savings in the gap between driving and flying are enough.
@@isaacliu896 battery electric vehicles still require a lot of resources and emissions to build out. Plus they are heavier than ICE vehicles, so they will place more wear and tear on the roads.
@@tonywalters7298 Just thought u talked about the German high speed rail. 🤣
Brightline is correctly focusing on competing with short haul air flights. If any private train service is going to succeed in the USA, it's using this model. And they correctly understand that the real money is in real estate. So I think they are going to be successful.
I hope Brightline succeeds on the West Coast, I would definitely take the train to Las Vegas when the line opens, I hate I-15 to Vegas, one little accident and you are stuck in traffic for hours.
Same. Hopefully they're looking into a line between San Diego and Vegas as well.
If brightline were an airline, we wouldn't even be having discussions like this. Passenger air travel is a form of public transportation, yet nobody says that passenger air travel should be ran as a public good and shouldn't be in the hands of private companies. In terms of air travel, there's Delta, United, Southwest airlines, JetBlue and more. Anytime there's a crisis Micah pandemic, a terrorist attack that scares the public away from flying, the government always comes to the rescue. Nobody asks should passenger air travel be nationalized? Personally, I think private passenger rail is a good thing. Brightline is doing it because politicians have failed to invest in High-Speed rail. The US is behind Europe, Japan and other industrialized countries in terms of rail... And Fortress knows this... And that's why they're stepping in.
Planes and cars don't need to be banned, but car and plane dependency is the problem, people need more options, like cycling and transit, so cars are not the only option.
Oh what a load of journal packing! There has been plenty of money invested and squandered on rail. The problem is actually getting something for the money.
The big difference with airlines is who owns the infrastructure. It's not the various private airlines. The airports are usually entities with public private ownership arrangements. The airlines don't own or operate the control towers at airports, etc. So, the airline industry runs much more like a private/public venture and it's well regulated too. So your comparison is not valid. The railroad infrastructure in the USA is almost entirely owned by a handful of private companies and their focus is solely on freight. That's the problem.
@@mrxman581 Small correction. The big fives have only one focus: PROFIT. The fact that they have to haul freight to make a profit, and that they furthermore have to do maintenance on their network is a hindrance to them - and it shows...
@@sethanix3969 "The big fives have only one focus: PROFIT."
And they haul more ton/miles of freight for less cost to the customer than any other rail system on the planet. There are plenty of freight lines in the country that are maintained to exceptionally high standards. Just look at UP & BNSF's lines over Cajon Pass. Or the Alameda Corridor through Los Angeles. But these are high capacity lines that are highly used.....and generate gobs-and-gobs of profit in cargo moved. The big five are simply not willing to maintain passenger lines as an act of charity because some rail fan wants them to.
I've always expected that when the real estate profits play out, Brightline would pass to a public agency (probably Amtrak) or shut down.
As for Brightline West, why wouldn't they just erect catenary from Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station on the San Bernardino Metrolink line? Why in North America do we think of railway catenary as a (near) impossibility when it's routine in Europe? There should be plenty of skilled workers once CalTrain gets done...
Real estate play out in Miami? Orlando? Fantasy. Not with most of the Northeast fleeing to Free Florida.
Even if so, that's a great outcome for the public sector! You literally had private investors pay for most of the construction of a rail link and now you only have to do operating costs. Basically the story of Amtrak.
@@tonyburzio4107 I was thinking more of the land being developed specifically by the Brightline conglomerate. Florida development in general probably doesn't have a horizon (unless the climate change predictions about sea levels actually pan out 😛).
@davidwyatt928 "As for Brightline West, why wouldn't they just erect catenary from Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station on the San Bernardino Metrolink line? "
Because not all the line between Rancho Cucamonga to LA Union Station is actually OWNED by Metrolink.....especially in the Urban Los Angeles core. Metrolink shares busy lines owned by BNSF & Union Pacific, both of which operate double-stack container and oversized freight (esp. autoracks) both directly on the line and across diamond crossings that would make catenary impracticable. Catenary works in Europe because container freight is shipped single-stack.....and oversized freight travels by road or water. Not a lot of canals or navigable rivers in Southern California.
@@tonyburzio4107 The Summer of 2023 is showing us that disastrous weather events all across the USA are impacting us far sooner and with far greater destructive impact than we anticipated even one short year ago. Soon there will be nowhere we can flee to escape global climate change, not even Florida. From Vermont's awful floods to the wildfires all across Canada to the oppressive heat waves hitting California, Texas, New Mexico. Arizona and much of the Southeastern United States, we Americans are facing far greater concerns than if or when Brightline can succeed at building a high-speed train from Rancho Cucamonga to Las Vegas. Our entire planet Earth is in deep, deep trouble. We are already losing our incentive to travel ANYWHERE. Just ask the citizens of the State of Vermont, who can't even drive out of their flood-devastated region to buy food or get medical attention because their roads have all been washed out.
The problem for California HSR is primarily to buy the land required, not the construction itself. This is less an issue for most of Brightline West, as most of the track will be along or even in between an already existing highway and through the desert. And if anyone in the US knows how to build a HSR, then it’s Brightline, because they have just done it in Florida. Though I have to say that some of their construction „techniques“ seem very „antiquated“ when compared to how you would build HSR in Europe (or in China…)
Brightline didn't "build" a Highspeed line, they just upgraded already existing tracks and right of way and bought new equipment. That's like me putting a spoiler and some cool racing stickers on my 2011 Versa and calling it a supercar.
@@michlo3393 That‘s not exactly true. While they laid a second track on the existing right of way from Cocoa to Palm Beach, the track from Orlando Airport to Cocoa is really completely new!
Don't think you mentioned that Brightline is still trying to extend to Tampa.
circa 4 minutes, you say that the train will go from Vegas to Palm Springs. Palmdale, the actual destination, is west of Victorville and about 120 miles northwest of Palm Springs.
Did you confuse Sanford, FL, the southern terminus for the Aoto train with Stanford?
There are a number of pods that explore the proposed layout and why it is planned the way it is. You have never driven the LA region and Vegas on a Friday or Sunday,, have you?
6:55 OMG THANK YOU!!! Felt like I was the only UA-camr saying this. The timeline is ridiculous! 4 YEARS and you don’t even have a stable funding source??? Great Video!
I don't really get why construction companies in the US are way too slow in building anything
Brightline does, Fortress could easily pay for it all themselves if need be, but might as well look for funds to start with, cause it's cheaper.
BLW has a pending $3.5 Billion federal grant request. It is competing for the $66 Billion bundle from the BIL.
Any LA resident who has done the drive to Vegas wants this Brighline train, as badly as we want high-speed rail to SF.
LA transit metro lines run every 8-16 minutes. If you are quoting Metrolink commute rail schedules, well, every 60 minutes off-peak is normal.
There are approximately infinite ubers in Vegas.
Please don't use hyperbole to describe how "easy" it is just to drive around Vegas, LA and back and forth between. Thanks.
Isn't it funny how the living in a place have completely different opinions from the armchair experts online
I hope Brightline is looking into a San Diego to Vegas line as well.
You're completely missing the point about needing connections to transit. This is a replacement for a flight and people have no qualms driving, getting a rental car, or Uber/Taxi to/from airports to finish the last leg of the journey. It will be no different for a suburban HSR station. Most people, especially well-off or at least middle class individuals taking inter-city transportation, aren't public transit die-hards.
Private options and attempts at rail should be wholeheartedly welcomed, given how California HSR is going. At the very least if they fail, Amtrak can take over the service (once the capital/construction costs are already paid using private money!) That's literally what happened to AutoTrain and today it is Amtrak's highest revenue long-distance route.
I have no problem with private companies getting money from the government for infrastructure.
Public transportation should be operated publically as a public good. The idea that infrastructure has to be profitable is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Yes, that's the perfect world, which the US is not, those leaning right want profitability, we want trains, why we have to do both, just reality, face it or keep dreaming.
@ncard00 If the right says that Public Transportation isn't supposed to be profitable, they're right. It's more a courtesy of transporting people without driving a car, and I see this as a good thing. Not everything has to be profitable, and a good amount of public transportation can help local businesses and people grow their wealth.
@@spookysenpai7642Yes, but baby steps, the rights don’t see this, and they’re in the oil, auto, and aviation industries pockets, but fully agree that the trains are more about giving people options, not reducing car use, but car dependency.
Brightline Florida is already profitable, and it's only partially open.
If you want to blame someone for our lack of rail, you have to blame our own government. Private companies are doing what the government would probably never accomplish in our lifetime at this rate. I don't really care how it gets funded and sustains itself, I just want decent rail service.
The routes that Brightline and other private rail companies are focusing on are corridors with high profitability potential. Most routes in the US just wouldn't have enough riders to pay for the cost of operation. Brightline was also smart to buy up property around it's station and tracks and lease them to help pay for it. This model works elsewhere in the world, like in Japan, I don't see why it couldn't here.
Why is brightline west singletrack!?
CEQA
From other video analysis I’ve seen on brightline west, some segments are double track and some are single track, so trains passing should be no issue. It will also be grade separated.
it's not completely single track, it's majority single track with passing sidings. However, there is space for full double tracking in the future, and the service is completely grade separated. Brightline simply wants to get the service up and running ASAP. Building 215 miles of double track in 3-3.5 years would be too much of an ask for any company, but it's still adequate to run hourly service in both directions.
The problem with Brightline service between southern California and Las Vegas is really the Rancho Cucamonga station location.
The F.R.A. has designated the corridors as Los Angeles-to-Phoenix and San Diego-to-Las Vegas. So, the station should be located in San Bernardino where Metrolink passengers from L.A., Riverside, San Diego, and Orange Counties can transfer seamlessly to Brightline in order to reach Las Vegas.
San Bernardino also has the Arrow light-rail line to and from the University of Redlands, as well as the sbX system between San Bernardino State and Loma Linda Universities. Additionally, San Bernardino International Airport lies just 1.5 miles east of the central station, so air-rail integration ought to be extremely easy.
Furthermore, the City of San Bernardino owns and controls a 48-acre tract of property near the multimodal terminal, and that land is now available for a master developer to subdivide and build out.
Rancho Cucamonga's Metrolink station, conversely, is a parking lot in the middle of huge arterial streets, large blocks, semi-trucks, warehouses, and nothing else.
As long as Brightline keeps beating the car on speed and comfort throughout its Florida corridor. it will keep being a success.
Being from Denmark, I must admit that our rail system faces certain issues when compared to Western Europe. Recently, I had the opportunity to experience the Bright Line in Miami, and it made me realize something crucial. In the US, trains are treated more like planes, and this is true for Amtrak as well. The boarding process can be quite chaotic as the tracks are only revealed at the last minute, which feels inefficient thus a que is formed where a boarding agent directs people for what seems like for ever. Unlike Europe, where a single ticket card provides access to all types of transportation, here in the US, trains come with strict security checks and limited, pre-booked tickets for specific trains and times and companies. These differences might be few of the reasons why rail travel is more popular and successful in Europe and Asia.
Brightline is an extremely small, premium carrier, and you can't extrapolate your experience with it to anything else in the United States. Most of the issues you cite are actually features, designed to make the experience more premium, and to make upper-middle class passengers feel comfortable, safe, and secure when taking what is basically public transportation. Remember that BrightLine's Smart Class is supposed to be like Business Class, not Coach. Europe has multiple levels of service as well, but I'd guess that nearly every train starts with a coach-equivalent.
You say that Amtrak trains are treated more like planes as well, but that's simply not true. I think that Acela has security, but I'm not even sure about that. Unless some other routes have started to upgrade, no other trains anywhere in the country have security. Amtrak's longer routes have ticketable seats in some or all classes, but many shorter routes either have optional seat reservations, or no seat reservations at all. There's a huge variety of service levels -- and quality of coaches. Nothing like BrightLine's coaches can be found in the Amtrak network (I'm not sure how Acela stacks up, but that would be it.) Also, most Americans want seat reservations for anything over an hour -- and I bet that many would pay $10 extra, or more, to reserve a specific seat on a trip lasting less than an hour, especially if you're traveling around and will have luggage with you. It's like a security blanket to us; we feel secure knowing that our seat is waiting for us, and we won't have to drag our bags through the train looking for a decent place to sit. If it felt more like an airplane to you, most Americans would say that's a good thing.
Rather than presuming an economic outcome on extremely limited personal experience, consider that the culture here is very different, and you clearly do not understand all its nuances.
@@thoughtfulskeptic7529 You seem to have missed my point, and I won't repeat myself. My response is actually embedded within my initial statement. Perhaps it's essential to acknowledge that train travel will never offer a premium experience, and this is a significant reason for its struggles in the US. If someone desires a premium experience, they'll opt for an Uber. In Europe, even affluent individuals rarely use business class because it's not typically included in the common ticket card system. This system allows passengers to show up and take a train at their convenience, often at a lower cost than booking specific seats.
Regarding security, I didn't claim that Amtrak has this aspect. I was pointing out that the existence of security measures on some trains is inefficient. I also shared my experience with gate agents checking tickets before boarding, which can be exceptionally slow and inefficient. Just to clarify, we didn't choose the Acela since, despite being a high-speed train, it's only 30 minutes faster from NY to DC and costs twice as much.
It's worth recognizing that different cultures do things differently, and some cultures excel in certain aspects more than others. This is why cultural exchange has been a part of human history. I wasn't arguing that Brightline isn't a premium experience; I was emphasizing that combining a premium experience with the inefficiencies that come with it is a recurring issue that hampers rail travel in the United States.
Lastly people seeking premium experiences typically opt for jets and cars. Trains are only profitable when they're operating at full capacity, and I can assure you that trains would be packed if they functioned similarly to those in Asia and Europe. The point I'm trying to make is substantiated by the straightforward fact that trains thrive in those regions of the world while struggling in America. Perhaps it's time to take some lessons from these successful models instead of clinging to the 'WE DO EVERYTHING GREAT IN AMERICA, WE DON'T NEED HELP FROM ANYONE, BUT EVERYONE NEEDS OUR HELP AND CULTURE' mentality.
Maybe start understanding perspective and logical thinking before you throw your little temper tantrums on the internet about subjects you have no insight into :)
That's a cheap shot at the freight railroads' track structure using a rinky-dink short line as your example
For all the reasons stated on this video, passenger rail service should be supported by the federal government just like our national highway system. Its about providing a service not about making money. You can even do a public private partnership where the government builds the infrastructure and private companies help to run it and they can make a reasonable profit. Most passenger rail systems around the world are heavily supported by their national governments. We need to do the same. Buying the tracks from freight companies that will be needed for passenger service is a start.
Good ideas.
And government funding for private rail should always come with one stipulation: the government owns the track
@@ThomasBomb45 Yes, completely agree.
@@ThomasBomb45In the case of Brightline West, Caltrans owns the ROW and it leases the route. But I get your point. So the public retains control. Of course, if the lease is very friendly then it starts to become a subsidy. BLW will make their profits off of all the desert land development they own. The railroad is the conduit for business.
Yeah, no. It should be private companies that fund the majority of the project and then the government can step in to help provide some additional financial aid, since the increase in property values and business activity around the train stations will go to the government in taxes. The government would do best to have as little involvement as possible. It will allow more things to be done in less time, which saves on costs. And then finally the government can help with small amounts of funding and should focus on railway safety and regulations. The less government involvement the better, because it increases the possible profit incentive, which encourages further investment from private actors.
This video has some misleading statements regarding financing that makes it difficult to trust.
XpressWest had been looking to use roughy $1.4 billion in private equity, not private funding. It was still looking to private debt markets for funding up to that roughly $7 billion estimate. There were possibilities of federal government funding, but even the Wiki page cited in the video refers to the financing of a federal loan (i.e., repayment is contractually obligated) and is not a payout. That is a big difference.
For the Miami station, the payment by the county was specifically for the incremental station build out for tracks and space for the government run Tri Rail system to terminate there versus the airport today.
For the Orlando station, it was intended to be built with government dollars, and Brightline will pay what is essentially access fees and other rental fees. So again, not a government payout.
Considering this is basically public transportation I don't see the issue with asking for PUBLIC MONEY.... we're really out here complaining about putting money into our country's actual development for the people and not just the military
This
Exactly!! Like where do some people expect our taxpayers dollars to go, if not to things like improving our infrastructure and our travel capabilities?
Oh Pacific Electric did this too in SoCal. They built pretty much every suburb in LA county but if you’ll notice the extensive railroad system is gone. Private rails don’t work, the land investment model is even worse. Trains are a service and too expensive to be ran for profit and should always be public. 😊
Given that the trains have been very busy after boca roton and avdentura opened and brightline might be adding more cars it probably will be profitable for many years to come. With all the sporting events in Orlando and Miami they definitely have a market of people who don’t want to drive or fly down to Miami
The Victorville station will be the spot that will make brightline the most money.
There is a subway station in China that was built in the boondogs, everyone laughed at it.
In less than a decade, it is surrounded by highrises and other buildings.
Back in the past, that is how rail companies made money, they built a track to nowhere and built up stations and sold those plots and people came and built around the stations.
Transportation is a public good, it does not need to be profitable. It is rather dystopian how Brightline markets itself as a private railway, as though relying upon global private equity firms for public infrastructure is reassuring for snowbirds who have been indoctrinated with the belief that private therefore means good. The US decided to subsidize car travel in the 1950's and have put good money after bad ever since to destroy the social fabric of our towns and cities. A large swath of the developed world has subsidized rail travel and created vast networks of fast rail services. Florida had the opportunity to use the ROW as a proper high speed network, and there was even funding in place to do it, but Rick Scott turned it down (unlike all that Medicare fraud money that he kept for himself). You are absolutely right that if a system is subsidized, the public should have a stake in it, and a mechanism to have oversight. Treating rail as a novelty or a real estate gimmick is exactly what the people at the levers of power want, consumers to lack confidence in any of mode of travel that isn't supported by a massive lobby, which includes air travel along with the auto industry.
As European, I find high-speed diesel rail ridiculous. You are burning a lot of fuel for those speeds, while here nearly all major lines are electrified.
I'd love to see Brightline running to Las Vegas.
I'd love to see them build a new, truly high speed NEC.
All you need to do is carpet bomb the cities like they did to get Japan going so fast. No problem.
Brightline’s southern segment is already exceeding ridership projections and turning a profit.
Incentives are given to private companies all the time. Florida has a huge tourism base and their tax dollars to spend.
If you are going to just the strip as many do and it is well priced, it could be a hit. The delays when commuting from Vegas on the weekends are hell.
Florida was a very different place when FEC decided to terminate passenger service in the late 1960s. The population has more than tripled since then with the growth disproportionately in the cities Brightline is connecting. Tampa to Miami should completely replace air travel on that route and be a gold mine. When FEC was operating there wasnt even a reason to connect Tampa to the system.
I’ll agree Brightline’s certainly ambitious, but considering the South Florida segment recently had its first operational profit, I don’t think Brightline’s going away anytime soon. But who knows what the future holds? It’s certainly looking bright for passenger rail.
Obviously you've never delt with Interstate 15 on weekends. It can take two hours just to go from San Bernardino to Victorville. I-15 is considered to have the worst accident rate in the state of California. Weekdays aren't much better. If Amtrak were to take over from Brightline West eventually, they would certainly run the service into the ground like they have everything else.
Yeah, and more trains means less cars on the road, benefitting the remaining cars.
Exactly RoamingRailfan did a video on the BLW route and he thought the weekdays would offer relief from traffic but showed that he was in gridlock anyway.
This video is trying way too hard to find problems or issues with Brightlines plans and this naysaying really exposes the lack of transit oriented knowledge. For example taking issue with the fact that the Rancho Cucamonga station connects passengers to Metrolink to continue towards Union Station in L.A., as if routing partnerships aren't a standard practice in the airline industry with several individual airlines coming together to form alliances that provide increased service to more destinations. Its impossible for any one airline to operate on every possible route or market so strategically connecting passengers to a partner airline is a common practice in the airline industry. Brightline connecting to the Metrolink would be in the same vein.
I don't think that some people have a full grasp on the business model of Brightline. It wasn't designed for Americans, it was designed for Tourists from overseas. They will fry into Miami and leave from Orlando, or vise versa. And when Phase 3 is complete to Tampa another option is available. Tourists don't want to rent a car and deal with all of the extra costs. They get off the plane, get on a train and at their location in hours. This business model is alien to Americans, that is why many don't understand it.
If Push comes to shove ... Amtrak would probably take over the service.
How about NO
@@qjtvaddicti’d much prefer a public agency that has to answer to taxpayers than a private company that leeches off tax money and basically has free rein to do whatever they want with their services. i feel like public transportation needs to be subsidized to work (and there’s nothing wrong with that). and private shareholders would eventually be too busy worrying about profits to keep things moving smoothly
@@weirdfish1216 I agree.
@@weirdfish1216 and thats how we ended up with a poorly ran amtrak
@@slumpdogyt poorly funded amtrak*
In the section of the video which talks about “Auto Train” you mispronounced the Florida city the train ended. It is “Sanford” not “Stanford”
13:05 This is why the Trancontinental was built in the first place, the government would pay the railways in barren land, and then they would put in a station which would give the land a whole lot more value.
Stating Brightline as overambitious is laughable when they depend on CA government infrastructure. Without the CAHSR investment, Brightline Vegas is useless. The tracks going into LA need to be modernized in order for these Brightline Vegas trains to operate. The funding for electrification for Metrolink will come from CAHSR. Why would anyone from LA drive over an hour to take a train to Vegas? Also, the last time I heard about Brightline Vegas was when they failed to sell bonds in CA for train funding. My only complaint so far is I wished they planned to build a stop in Barstow. The economic benefit for CA is marginal if you cannot connect their smaller towns to the railway. The entire reason for Brightline building this line is to bring money from LA to Vegas where they will own real estate. Nevada doesn't produce specialized workers who can afford the commute to LA. A main benefit I see for the train line is going to be building train stations in more affordable places for CA residents.
I'm actually in favor of this video; Brightline is a quasi-private railroad company, and honestly I'm a bit worried that the Brightline West will wither on the vine. It's actually nice to hear that some of the concerns expressed aren't too far off from reality. I want to believe that Brightline will succeed, but it's the cost overruns that makes me worry? If you're from my generation (Baby Boomer) we all saw how transportation companies came and went in the blink of an eye. I'm honestly worried that Brightline will be just a regional railroad company and that the Brightline West will likely flop. I guess we'll see what the future holds for Brightline?
Another thing, 125mph diesel trains aren't exactly cutting edge technology. Britain introduced them in 1975, and most of them have now been retired in favour of 140mph electric trains.
No, but they're cheap, stable, and still faster and greener than cars.
Electric catenary in a hurricane zone? Riiiiggggghhhhttt. Green, it depends on if people are actually silly enough to buy electric cars in a place where you may need to evacuate to another state on the drop of a hat.
Ya, I CAN’T see brightline ever upgrading their trains in the future like the UK did. That’s just not possible.
To the both overhead wire doubters: Tell that to Japan.
@MysticRenn "A typhoon (台風, taifū) is a large low pressure system, originating over the northwest Pacific Ocean. It is accompanied by strong winds of up to around 200 km/h, a rise of the sea level and torrential rainfalls. Over the Atlantic Ocean, typhoons are known as hurricanes."
About 30 typhoons form each year over the northwest Pacific Ocean, of which an average of about seven or eight pass over Okinawa Prefecture, and about three hit the Japanese main islands, especially Kyushu and Shikoku. But any region of Japan, including Tokyo, Osaka and Hokkaido can be visited by typhoons."
- Japan Guide, Typhoons
Anyone who's any idea about Japan's geology or meteorology knows that Japan is in a tropical storm zone much like Florida. Hurricanes are thus not an excuse.
When and if brightline comes out to socal they’re going to have some issues with cajon pass. Cajon has heavy speed restrictions due to high grades and I don’t know how they could build around canon pass. Plus we already have Amtrak and Metrolink.
It's been covered that EMUs on the passenger train-only tracks will be able to handle the 6% grade change the interstate traverses.
Auto Train, along with the premature Louisville extension, also suffered a series of derailments that made them cough up their deductible each time.
I love this video! Its ok if you take a long time to make the next one I still believe in you!🙂
Personally, i dont see the hype around brightline, it just seems like another rail company were going to give billions in subsidys whos business model they stole off of japan.
Your video should mention that Metrolink can run many more trains from Los Angeles to Rancho Cucamonga, if demand exists, because most of the Metrolink San Bernardino line is ex-Pacific Electric to Claremont, and east of Claremont, it is the former Santa Fe passenger mainline that carries little freight traffic. The only real problem is that most of the ex-Pacific Electric portions are in the middle of I-10, which will be difficult to double-track, even though the railroad was present long before the freeway was built.
Flagler's real-estate promotion isn't even new. Many railroads all throughout our Nation's history promoted real-estate development to spur business.
Look at the checkerboard pattern of the West, where railroad companies got alternating sections of public land for building key lines back in the 19th century.
8:02 while in china makes 6,000 Miles of toll roads and 1.000 Miles of high speed train every year. where design, study and approval can be completed within 1 year. making the construction of toll roads 40% cheaper than in other countries
China is building passenger trains to free up their freight lines (one just built) for coal. It's working great, Chinese CO2 increases are off the chart and increasing monthly as new power plants are built. As far as cost, would you be willing to help build a passenger railway if someone knocked on your door this evening? In China, you would not have a choice, off you go.
China does not have their own National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA like we do. Any of these publicly funded and privately run transportation projects have to go through piles and piles of scrutiny before a shovel is placed in the ground. This includes Social and Environmental Justice issues which can grind a project to a halt. China just takes your land and if you don't move, a bullet will find you pretty quick!!
"China makes ... 1.000 Miles of high speed train every year..."
Nope. Xi's government has banned any new HSR rail construction since 2020.....because the provinces constructed most of HSR lines on borrowed money backed by the "profits" on real estate sales to developers. But with the collapse of China's real estate bubble, those loans are turning increasingly toxic. The Chinese central government is taking the hard line that the provinces and development banks must sort this out.....and China is starting to see bank failures and provinces begging hat-in-hand to their local industries to fund basic services.
Not particularly important, but three railroads didn't join Amtrak; Southern, Rio Grande, and Rock Island. Railroads were both passenger and freight before Amtrak. Passenger railroads didn't go out of business, railroads simply dropped passenger service, joined Amtrak, or operated their own passenger trains (Southern, Rio Grande, Rock Island).
Thank you! That wasn't mentioned at all.
Why do you say it´s ´scummy´? There is nothing wrong with government paying towards the country´s infrastructure. As for the real estate thing, I don´t see any problem there either. You seem to be searching for reasons with Brightline will fail, but I think it´s actually a real great achievement and hope to see more such train routes and stations being built throught the US, reducing the need for people to drive or fly.
The Mohave desert is a hostile place to build anything like a railroad ,heat, cold it snows out there,and throw in an earthquake for good.
If Brightline West actually went downtown, maybe it might work. They can just cancel the MCO-Tampa Section and divert any funds from that to finish Brightline West or simply keep the company stable. Would be cool to restore the ROW between Sarasota and Naples (Venice's station still exists w/o track and a segment from Lakeland that goes by Punta Gorda to Bonita Springs that could be expanded and upgraded should Tampa and ultimately a second Miami line from Fort Myers that connects to the main line by West Palm's airport)
How about you transfer trains run to LA ugh
I used to have to drive from Naples to Fort Lauderdale multiple times a week. If I could have just taken a train and chill for the whole route I would have been fucking thrilled. Alligator Alley isn't as exciting as it sounds to drive.
Brightline West is the Las Vegas to San Bernardino route. Has nothing to do with FLA. The money is coming from different sources.
BL East is angling for a partnership with Sunrail west of MCO, so public funding. Interest rates high. But new owner with money, Mubadala, took over from SoftBank.
@@kitchin2 But Sunrail wants priority, which Brightline doesn't like
It seems that Brightline’s business model is similar to a tech startup’s. Invest a lot of money up front, run the business at a loss, exit the business through a sell-off to another entity that will worry about making it profitable. The entity in this case will be the government/Amtrak which will be blackmailed into overpaying for Brightline just to avoid eliminating the existing passenger service.
The biggest laugh from Brightline West is that they are delusional to think that they can build an entirely new high speed electrical train corridor in 4 years. In order for that to realistically happen, they would need multiple crews working simultaneously on small sections of the entire corridor . Also working in the middle of a busy interstate is not easy either.
Why can’t they work with metro link to electrify the corridor into Union Station
Amtrak is in far worse shape than fans like to believe. They have finally run out of Superliners, diners to be exact. Their Acela replacement trains won't stay on the track, the Airo train sets don't fit into their service bays, the Chargers freeze up in cold weather because they didn't realize tunnel motors can both cool AND warm the intakes, and now they need new long distance passenger cars, and there are none to be had. So what do the fans do? They make up excuses, "oh propeller head hates trains", and isn't that a pile of journal packing? So Brightline. Why. A while back, the Feds wanted to gift out large sums of money, but Florida didn't want the debt piled up on their books (you had to pay it back). Oddly enough, Florida doesn't like debt, and boy did that pay off with COVID. Anyway, Brightline stepped up and found a way to make Florida's boom from refugees fleeing the Northeast and arriving in Florida build a free railroad. Did you know that the Southeast's economy is now bigger than the Northeast's and growing fast? So much for the Northeast Corridor. Anyway, Brightline was in the right place, had the sense to just buy off the shelf Siemens cars, and didn't set profitability as a goal. Sure making a profit happened already, but that was only a pleasant surprise.
What about Metra?
Re brightline west not having public transit at either end: LA is doing a ton of public transit upgrades leading up to the Olympics, so at least that half of the equation is moving in the right direction. I actually suspect that if a branch of this is going to fail, it’s more likely to be the Florida route, so long as the LA-LV route can actually get built.
12:23 they fixed that up to 49-mph standards
They keep making design decisions that put short-term profit over long-term functionality and long-term profit. Grade-crossings, low speed, and diesel in Florida. No tunnels, sharp curves that lower speeds, steep grades that can’t sustain icy conditions, and odd station locations on the Las Vegas line. Florida’s line is too slow and too expensive to compete with driving. Renting a car is faster door-to-door and more economical for one person in Florida, and way more economical for families. True high-speed could have addressed this.
I don't know why they are trying to expand into California when they aren't done in Florida. I hope, as your title implies, that they aren't biting off more than they can chew.
I prefer to give government money to Brightline that the military industrial complex.
2:40 Santa Fe and Burlington Northern did not go out of business they just merged together after their passenger trains were taken away.
So basically Brightline operates like the much beloved Japanese train companies and he is complaining about it??
Just clickbait honestly.
@@Ven100 Yeah I'm finding that out. It's unfortunate for an urbanism channel, but not entirely unexpected. It gets the views and arguments increase user engagement stats.
So, brightline’s business plan is the same as Henry Huntington’s with Pacific Electric “red car”. Then again, Hong Kong Metro is quite successful with this model
Excellent presentation.
Brightline tickets to Orlando are SO EXPENSIVE, and the times are stupid.
They need a special theme park Express day train, one that arrives early enough and leaves late enough to make a day trip from Miami/fort Lauderdale to Disney/universal possible.
If they had that the $100 ticket might be worth it since doing driving day trips to Orlando is exhausting and dangerous to drive home tired so would be great to be able to nap on the way up and sleep on the way back
The brightline is nice but its just not affordable for working people really. Its more of a urban transit like if u need to go from miami to west palm quick because the trirail has more stops.
Like over $20 at times for a ticket is just not something I would pay regularly.
Indian river an martin county also tried to sue brightline for reasons im unsure (i live in indian river)
There are fares as low as $10 and $15.
Plenty of people use Brightline for working commutes. The monthly pass between West Palm Beach to Miami works out to $9 per ride. All anyone has to do is look at the early morning rush hour WPB departures to see. What once were hourly departures of 5:36am, 6:36am, 7:36am became 5:36, 6:36, 6:51, 7:04 and 7:36am. Some of the trains were also extended in length. Tourists aren't getting up between 5-6am to take a train to Miami. Those are workers. I looked at one of those 6:36am trains about a month ago and it was 85% booked.
Just last weekend I took Brightline and paid $20 roundtrip from WPB to Miami. The $79 prices to Orlando are also reasonable as they're lower than flights. Greyhound/Flixbus charges $35-$55 from MCO to Downtown Miami with a 5 hour timetable.
YES! like part of the demise of the North shore line (a private interurban line from Chicago to Milwaukee (would reach 90mph in service)) was in part that the larger company that owned it was like the profit margins aren't good enough, So let's scrap it! I agree that someday Fortress will scrap Brightline, or beg Amtrak to take it over once the Real estate development ROI have come in or the real estate has no further growth potential.
Brightline West I have no faith, there website says NEARLY Shovel ready! So I bet there is design work still needed to be done. And if anyone is to learn from California HSR, that you should have everything planned out first, Instead designing as you build. Designing while building will only get you cost overruns and late delivery dates. So I don't see how they can Start this year in Q4. When they admitted themself that they'll need to build a mile a day, and I don't think you can do that in a middle of a highway median. They'll have to replicate a task that hasn't been done since the transcontinental railroad! IF they do get started and some how get the line built, I will bet they will operate at a max speed of 110mph or something lower then 150mph or 180mph or 200mph (whatever max they say they'll run at right now). With the 4 years construction window they won't have the time to let the FRA certify them with special exceptions that would be needed to run faster than any train in North America currently can go since there is no precedence for anything above 155mph here!
I disagree I think the Las Vegas station is not in a good spot! After visiting Las Vegas, last year in June, it was 110°F in the day and 98° at night... it's almost impossible to walk there, and the walking infrastructure sucks. and the little transit they have is always late. The current Bus route "the Deuce" doesn't even run that far south on Las Vegas Boulevard. and there is a lot of lobbies agent that useless monorail, it doesn't even go to the airport and it's in the back of the one side of the strip. Las Vegas needs REAL transit, but until that miracle happens, bright line will need it's own fleet of cars to provide to "last mile" transportation for people's final destination.
does brightline go to kokomo?
no :(
maybe this is a stupid question, but if brightline wants to fold and abandon its passenger service at some point in the future, would they have to petition the STB? and would they have the option to give their rolling stock to amtrak just like back in the day? or has all that regulation gone away?
I see Brightline Florida as being really successful. I don't see Brightline West being successful at all... Victorville to the edge of Las Vegas south of the airport... WTF? Has to go direct to LA Union Station and to the Strip (north of the Welcome to LV sign).
If we want to talk overambition, let's start with CASHR first.
The potential for mass rail transit has existed for ever. I wonder why we haven't installed high speed rail over the median strips on the expressways. Should be able to accomplish. It could be elevated. Just wondering.
annual passengers a year
I must call BS at 12:22. It's absolutely unfair to show a graph of Class 1 railroad data and then a picture of right-of-way from a Class 3 railroad, probably one of the notoriously bad ones. That's straight-up deception. In my lifetime the main line through the city where I live has gone from old, worn jointed rail with poor ballast to welded rail with concrete ties and very nice white ballast, and the company has started double tracking sections of their line which never had been as far as I can tell. Even out in the tiny towns in the west of the state the Class 1 rails I saw were in pretty good condition. The short lines who run on shoestring budgets are another story, but even there the quality is mixed rather than universally awful.
The class 1s definitely let a lot of their infrastructure decay, but that’s mostly due to way too much investment into the auto industry by the government making smaller/shorter train routes less profitable. Also it’s much more important for passenger rail to be fast than freight, so overall I completely agree, just wish the federal and state governments would support private passenger rail more
Public Transit doesn’t have to make a profit. It is a service for the people.
Passenger Rail has always been about the real estate $$
Update: Bright line received the funding that they asked for. Design for construction start has started with groundbreaking projected for Q2 2024.
The author failed to discuss the other major issues facing Brightline...
No mention of the potential for CA & NV attacks on the trains by Indians and the potential loss of passenger scalps...
Also, in FL, no mention is made of the potential for the railroad stations to be overrun by alligators and pythons...
Certainly, those are things that should have been described earlier in the video...
Annaconda too.
I’m working on this right now, in the field. It’s happening.
I'm sorry the Victor valley station is going to be built in WHERE and by a WHAT
Who's idea was this?!
It's such a strange placement. I still don't get why they decided to place it in that spot
@@UrbanDox It's because of the wye to Palmdale to connect to CAHSR. Take out a map and look at LA County - it has the Northeast corner in the Antelope Valley. Palmdale/Lancaster both pay 3 LA County sales taxes for transit, but the LA Metro system doesn't touch them. In exchange, the state agreed to a highway connecting victorville to Palmdale, but then it got cancelled. Meanwhile, CA High Speed Rail took a detour via Palmdale as a consolation prize, and they had to repurpose the high desert corridor funding - which will go into rail instead of a new freeway. BUT it won't work if they put the station in victorville, so to get the permitting through the high desert, they had to agree to integrate on the high desert corridor wye.
Rancho Cucamonga.
@@PDXLibertarian When BLW bought the rights from the previous company, Victorville was the end point on the CA side. BLW added Rancho Cucamonga in order to sell bonds. When Victorville was the end stop bond sales were dead on arrival.
Dude, it should’ve been placed adjacent to the Victorville Amtrak Station.
Ah the Naysayers, the opportunity to move forward is now. I've watched with interest how fast rail has been preposed to connect by tunnels and bridges the whole world. Ask the French and the English if the Chunnel should have been built
please tell me it goes to kokomo
If it's a big city, by US standards, close to another big city within 200-500 miles, Brightline will be there eventually.
Tf is Kokomo
California High-Speed Rail does not use contractors for construction. That work is being done by the authority itself and the workers are employed by the authority. I think the conclusion in this video was decided upon first and then the facts were shaped to support it.
Leasing out mixed use real estate in the station area is probably the key. Recurring revenue stream, which attracts residents who then also financially support the transit lines because they are so close/convenient. It’s a self-sustaining cycle of profitability. JR (Japan Rail) comes to mind.
If you cost cut (cutting real estate OR transit quality), you lose customers for one or the other, and you lose the feedback cycle, losing customers for both, and you go into bankruptcy. Hopefully the Brightline/Fortress execs can figure that out. SoftBank certainly should understand, as a Japanese company.