First time I saw it was at The Griffon game store in South Bend, IN (store is still there) back in the 1981-82. Think I went back and bought it the next week. Ended up with all the gamettes and then moved to ASL when they got it in.
Also. SST was first. I thought programmed instruction was great. For ASL they thought shoving a phone book in your face to read before making your first move was a great idea. I have both SL and ASL. Reading The first section in SL rules got you playing the game. Reading the ASL is like torture, and then some sh*thead player ALWAYS wants to argue. Example of real rules in ASL but NOT SL: in ASL you declare attacks THEN check Line of Sight. If no LOS then you can't attack. Sounds smart on the surface- but it's STUPID. Why? If I can't see the target location, then why would I even fire at it? I will only fire at things I can see (ASL and SL infantry fire at a hex, not an individual unit). The ASL rule fails the reality check.
@@scottwatts3879 You have it, sir. Playing ASL with a friend is fun. Playing with a rules lawyer is torture. SL is a better experience through and through. For me.
@@scottwatts3879 The thinking with the ASL LOS rule (declare fire, then check LOS) I believe is that the players don't control exactly where every soldier is in the hex. And the player may eyeball a LOS and think it's clear. The analogy being that maybe they saw a portion of a squad peaking out past a building obstacle so they chose to take a shot, only to find out the LOS was blocked or the squad ducked beyond the obstruction. It's just another abstraction of the game that adds tension and variability. I don't mind it.
Fun to watch, Neal. I try to not collect things, so I have no regrets about tossing SL in the bin when ASL came out. I only played a few games of SL when it came out, with my wife, amazingly. We were on our journey to becoming engaged and married so I dropped gaming for a while. When I returned, ASL ruled.
I got a used copy of an AH game Mystic Wood that I may have played once. But it came with a full color catalog of AH games (maybe 1981?) and I ogled the pics and read the promo text so many times. The concept of Squad Leader was amazing to me. I only knew strategy games up until then. Tactical would become my true love. I do enjoy a game of base Squad Leader just for nostalgia, but not Cross of Iron and beyond. Too much spaghetti code, especially after nearly 40 years of ASL.
I spoke with John Hill some decades ago. He did SL and CoI and felt that SL was the infantry game and CoI was the armored game. His (quiet) opinion was that CoD and GI just left the reservation with garbage.
I believe we played some OG SL in the early '90s, when we started playing again, but at this point in life I have no memory of the actual game mechanics. With hindsight, it would appear rather clunky. My first memories of SL are of utter amazement and complete awe, loved that game, for me and my 13 year old imagination, it generated such a great narrative. When you compared the old and new boards #1 together, I noticed some slightly different building and woods outlines, which I thought was strange, so not exact duplicates. 🤔
Yeah, looking back the SL rules are both elegant and a bit clunky. Like the Def Fire tracking counters. I'm glad they redid Def Fire to make the movement phase more back and forth, instead of you move everything, then backtrack stuff so I can fire at it.
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is the first wargame I ever (co-)bought (with my cousin, we were around 11-12 years old. It was a revolutionary concept that someone drew maps, and counter, and had rules to play WAR! We'd been using army men and our imaginations up to that point. Soon after, I found SL and bought it thinking that all WWII wargames were compatible. Haha. No concept of scale. I was pretty disappointed that it was a tactical level game. But then we started playing and myself and a cousin loved it. We later recruited a younger cousin to play. We split buying the expansions and loved making our own monster scenarios using almost every piece. When ASL came out, none of us switched. We thought it was a cash grab. We were just kids without jobs or anything at that point. Thanks for he walk down memory lane.
I loved the campaign game leader. Often thought about trying it in ASL, but it might unbalance a scenario. You’d probably have to just “replace” a similarly rated leader in the scenario
It's actually possible to play SL without constantly referring to the rulebook. I mean, look at the number of times you guys have to in streams and YOU'RE EXPERTS in ASL. Love SL, and love UF even more.
We're far from "experts" 😂In fact, there are few experts in ASL. Watch the MMP roundtable #2 video, specifically the rout discussion. There were a lot of veteran players there, and there was still a lot of debate/confusion during some rout examples.
@@planomathandscience Neal more so than myself, above average, quite possibly, experts? 🤣🤣🤣 Not sure there is such a thing, only a small handful of ASL players would land in that group.
@@ASLAcademy It's the rules trying to micromanage arguments. Here's my answer to all these questions: If you were actually one of your cardboard heros on the board...what would you do? Which way would you rout? Who would you fire at? And that's why I play with myself....ah, by myself....solo, I mean.
Thank you, I really enjoyed this. I feel I just might have to dig out the game boxes and drool over the a bit. I don't think I'll be able to get my wife to play any tactical boar games, or simulations as I think the designers liked to call it, with me tough.
Loved the trip down memory lane! 🖖🏼
First time I saw it was at The Griffon game store in South Bend, IN (store is still there) back in the 1981-82. Think I went back and bought it the next week. Ended up with all the gamettes and then moved to ASL when they got it in.
September 1983. Gary brought over a copy and I was hooked. The rest is history.
Programmed instruction was in Starship Troopers.
Oh cool. I didn’t know that.
Also. SST was first. I thought programmed instruction was great. For ASL they thought shoving a phone book in your face to read before making your first move was a great idea. I have both SL and ASL. Reading The first section in SL rules got you playing the game. Reading the ASL is like torture, and then some sh*thead player ALWAYS wants to argue. Example of real rules in ASL but NOT SL: in ASL you declare attacks THEN check Line of Sight. If no LOS then you can't attack. Sounds smart on the surface- but it's STUPID. Why? If I can't see the target location, then why would I even fire at it? I will only fire at things I can see (ASL and SL infantry fire at a hex, not an individual unit). The ASL rule fails the reality check.
@@scottwatts3879 You have it, sir. Playing ASL with a friend is fun. Playing with a rules lawyer is torture. SL is a better experience through and through. For me.
Correct, I'd forgot about Starship Troopers. I think it came out just before SL was released.
@@scottwatts3879 The thinking with the ASL LOS rule (declare fire, then check LOS) I believe is that the players don't control exactly where every soldier is in the hex. And the player may eyeball a LOS and think it's clear. The analogy being that maybe they saw a portion of a squad peaking out past a building obstacle so they chose to take a shot, only to find out the LOS was blocked or the squad ducked beyond the obstruction. It's just another abstraction of the game that adds tension and variability. I don't mind it.
Fun to watch, Neal. I try to not collect things, so I have no regrets about tossing SL in the bin when ASL came out. I only played a few games of SL when it came out, with my wife, amazingly. We were on our journey to becoming engaged and married so I dropped gaming for a while. When I returned, ASL ruled.
I only collect two things: ASL (not remotely a completionist tho) and books.
I got a used copy of an AH game Mystic Wood that I may have played once. But it came with a full color catalog of AH games (maybe 1981?) and I ogled the pics and read the promo text so many times. The concept of Squad Leader was amazing to me. I only knew strategy games up until then. Tactical would become my true love.
I do enjoy a game of base Squad Leader just for nostalgia, but not Cross of Iron and beyond. Too much spaghetti code, especially after nearly 40 years of ASL.
I spoke with John Hill some decades ago. He did SL and CoI and felt that SL was the infantry game and CoI was the armored game. His (quiet) opinion was that CoD and GI just left the reservation with garbage.
We called it Mystic Woodie
Now you got me looking to pick a copy again. Stupidly threw it out after squad leader came out. Still have the boards though.
Yes, pick up a gently used copy!
I believe we played some OG SL in the early '90s, when we started playing again, but at this point in life I have no memory of the actual game mechanics. With hindsight, it would appear rather clunky.
My first memories of SL are of utter amazement and complete awe, loved that game, for me and my 13 year old imagination, it generated such a great narrative.
When you compared the old and new boards #1 together, I noticed some slightly different building and woods outlines, which I thought was strange, so not exact duplicates. 🤔
Yeah, looking back the SL rules are both elegant and a bit clunky. Like the Def Fire tracking counters. I'm glad they redid Def Fire to make the movement phase more back and forth, instead of you move everything, then backtrack stuff so I can fire at it.
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is the first wargame I ever (co-)bought (with my cousin, we were around 11-12 years old. It was a revolutionary concept that someone drew maps, and counter, and had rules to play WAR! We'd been using army men and our imaginations up to that point. Soon after, I found SL and bought it thinking that all WWII wargames were compatible. Haha. No concept of scale. I was pretty disappointed that it was a tactical level game. But then we started playing and myself and a cousin loved it. We later recruited a younger cousin to play. We split buying the expansions and loved making our own monster scenarios using almost every piece. When ASL came out, none of us switched. We thought it was a cash grab. We were just kids without jobs or anything at that point.
Thanks for he walk down memory lane.
I loved the campaign game leader. Often thought about trying it in ASL, but it might unbalance a scenario. You’d probably have to just “replace” a similarly rated leader in the scenario
It's actually possible to play SL without constantly referring to the rulebook. I mean, look at the number of times you guys have to in streams and YOU'RE EXPERTS in ASL. Love SL, and love UF even more.
We're far from "experts" 😂In fact, there are few experts in ASL. Watch the MMP roundtable #2 video, specifically the rout discussion. There were a lot of veteran players there, and there was still a lot of debate/confusion during some rout examples.
@@planomathandscience Neal more so than myself, above average, quite possibly, experts? 🤣🤣🤣 Not sure there is such a thing, only a small handful of ASL players would land in that group.
@@ASLAcademy It's the rules trying to micromanage arguments. Here's my answer to all these questions: If you were actually one of your cardboard heros on the board...what would you do? Which way would you rout? Who would you fire at?
And that's why I play with myself....ah, by myself....solo, I mean.
If the game has been out 40 years and there's no experts...
😅
Thank you, I really enjoyed this. I feel I just might have to dig out the game boxes and drool over the a bit. I don't think I'll be able to get my wife to play any tactical boar games, or simulations as I think the designers liked to call it, with me tough.