It really depends. If the AI is my enemy, they'd use that infinite money to spam infinite stacks of mercs. If they're my ally, they'd find a way to get into 5876 ducats of debt anyway.
And if they're next to you while you're in a death war against someone else, they'll dig deep into their pockets to give them 300 ducats as an OPM all the time while you might get one if you're 3:1 against the Ottomans and Venice hasn't been beaten into the curb. And even then they'll try to give you some crappy loan with worse interest than the normal ones.
I would disagree, because you can't have infinite mercs (there are only so many complanies you can hire). So, ideas buffing regular troops (the number of which you don't have a hard limit on) and ideas buffing manpower balance are better.
@deepspacewanderer9897 early game mercenary ideas would be the best idea in the game though. Better mercs and more merc manpower and you will have way more force limit of mercs than you will be able to maintain regular units. Later after expanding across the globe you have access to way more mercenary companies and retaining army professionalism while also making use of the additional manpower mercs provide ensures that the idea group will still be valuable.
yeah like irl france didnt own the france region until around the time of the revolution so it should be much rarer for them to grab it all by like 1500 and be expanding into iberia and the low countries
I think the game just makes too little restrictions on the size of the country and too many punishments for having a lot of vassal states/great autonomy
I once saw Muscovy doing good territory wise (Neva, Smolensk, Kazan and Astrakhan conquered by 1500), but when I switched to them, it was terrible. Corruption, low admin tech, giant debt, rebellions. So I've decided to fix that. Removed corruption, gave them admin tech 9, spent mil points on rebels (and cheated more mil points), as well as gave them 20000 ducats for all. 10 years later, they somehow went into debt again, but at least they now have docks at the coast of the White Sea. Imagine building buildings that boost your economy. This post was made by the AI gang.
Sounds like the whole "AI doesn't realise it has money unless it's income" problem shown in the video. You gave them an injection of money with cheats, but because it was a flat sum in treasury, AI would just keep running a deficit and wait to go broke again instead of using the money to build buildings or employ advisors to fix its problems.
@@martenkahr3365 no way just like in real life the problem with EU4 and reason the AI is so bad is because the human players don't have to factor corruption
For some reason, when you described what the AI does with the button, all that came up in my head was a toddler who just has to press the button no matter what.
Other less thorough EU4 youtuber would just make an effortless timelapse with just the first version of the idea (the decision) and wouldn't make the income version for months (if at all) due to the similar video existing. Meanwhile here is our adored Lemon Cake being such a chad to actually do a proper research and execute his idea the first try. Not only that, but also do it in somewhat generously abridged 15 minutes video, also elaborating on how he did everything instead of giving vague "well I just made a modifier" (although I would say he could have go the trouble to disable the economic hegemony, but it was a small factor by the end of the day so whatever)
Ah thanks! When it comes to disabling Econ Hegemon, I decided to keep it on purposes as it provided at least an arbitrary reason to get more income, although in fairness what I should have disabled was vassal tax income, as instead of a question of actual eco scaling, it was just a question of how many vassals you had to tax.
It'd be interesting to see how a player could exploit this. Mercs would be great. As I understand it, mercs are limited. So each region only has a certain number of hire-able merc stacks. Normally that limit is plenty, but I could see it being an issue here. Still super exploitable. Also force limit is suddenly a mere suggestion. Losing men in a war would be more meaningful, as manpower becomes a much larger factor in how many men you can field.
1:32 Integer overflow, not stack overflow 🤓 EDIT: Elaboration: Integer overflow is when a number goes so big it flips the sign bit and goes negative Stack overflow is when a computer programs requests more memory than it is able to receive
paid 11k for a trade port in india / VJ - 10 years later i own the whole of south india and the war with vj they had 0 mercs that i noticed, unless they were all afk in north india out of sight, they didnt spend a penny of my 11k on survivng, prolly just on buildings in the land i took months later
I think there was actually a major change in the first campaign you showed. Versailles was upgrading to level 3 by 1500, and they had the other great project at 2 as well. And they had like 15-20 manufactories by 1500. That’s great reinvestment by the French ai, in my book. (Running 5 total advisor levels though is criminal)
My guess is since the projects are mostly upfront payment, the ai look at the money they have, see they have a bunch, see they are not losing money, then try and find a way to spend all the money without increasing monthly costs above a certain % of income they have.
I love being the economic hegemon because I placed a textile manufactory and workshop in a whole two dye provinces while the AI decides to deathstack 500 artilery on a province with 40 supply cap
In my eyes, the AI basically already has infinite money. I've only ever seen one nation go bankrupt, once, and it was literally just Lubeck as a OPM. That was it, I've seen them in insane debt but never bankruptcy.
@@Wulfric_VIXIII Yeah, AI gets to cheat with fort zones. If they have any legal path to their target provice at all, then they are allowed to take the shortest path through all fort zones. They only get stopped if there's no legal path at all. If let's say AI Poland-Lithuania gets the MA to go to Moscow through Ottomans, India and China by a Siberian detour, then they're immediately allowed to walk over your fortlines directly. More importantly: they can even cross areas that they wouldn't have a legal path to, if they start walking to a legal target on the other side. With the Muscovy example: say you have a solid fortline around your core territory from Urals to the Caucasus to the Baltic Sea. But they get MA to go around and siege the forts in the Urals. They can start marching from Poland directly over the "secure" zone to reach the forts that would stop them on the other side. And I'm pretty sure they're allowed to recalculate and change direction if your armies get near them to intercept, making them stuck in your "core" territory until they shattered retreat.
@@Wulfric_VIXIII Oh, they definitely do - In CK3 for example, I've seen a single county in scotland produce an army nearly on-par with a unified ireland. They had no allies, weren't anyone's vassals, weren't a fractured part of a previous larger power, etc. - but somehow they had a military comparable to a small kingdom, despite being a lone county. It was absurd.
12:40 In my current campaign (Austria WC) Morocco did the sme thing. They began colonizing the ivory coast and even south africa. And that is not even the most cursed part of the campaign.
fun fact, if the ai has 1million ducats, it will build up army and ships way over limit (when beeing mid game like 1600s) great britain for me had ship forcelimit of 150~ ships but had 650 ships in total, as an example
But what are the long term consequences in a game that you use a mod to increase the amount of idea groups you can take?, Does the ai exploit it? Or does the ai make more of the most mind boggling choices? (Also. What ideas would you take if you could get an idea group for every tech level for 10 tech levels?, I'd probably go innovative into court or something (extra splendor is never a bad thing, and idea cost reduction would be necessary to get all idea groups filed before the end of the game) then go humanist or religious (humanist for idea cost, religious for tolerance of the true Faith) and start stacking things to create an undeniably op nation that even makes use of the idea groups exclusive to certain government types)
I would guess they would take the ideas, but fail to abuse unless they do so by accident. The AI also as you identified doesn't like to take humanist if they have religious already, and stuff like that, so its good to make sure they have enough idea groups to actually grab
ai tend to preffer admin ideas or if not it will go heavily into military (did this with non limited choice for ideas) there were no colonise idea but a decent amount of expansion ideas.
the ai still picks like the ai does (surprisingly, even overhaul mods idea groups suffer from this), the consequences are just less development and slightly lower tech as the ai spends mana on pointless groups
I've tested this extensively on some old patches. AI behaves very differently based on whether you give it infinite INCOME vs just money in the "bank". Try giving a "temporary" bonus for 999999 months which gives +9999999 income monthly (don't go overboard as giving too much runs into issues)
Imagine if hte AI knew it didnt need the colonist in the colonies and could just colonise every province in colonial range at once... maybe that'd cost more the free money...
Yeah, that's what happened in the video. Tax income is still monthly like every other income, the game just calculates tax income and all its related modifiers as annual values under the hood for some reason, but still pays out 1/12th of your current annual tax income every month.
For the AI I wish they'd get claims more easily. A lot of nations just don't do all that much in AI hand because they don't get the claims they need to progress.
Issue is, that doesn't prevent spamming much anyway; 100 AI's popping a decision every day isn't great either, and having it disappear past 10k achieves the goal
@@LemonCake101 Just figured something out that would probably be best solution. Give every province a conditional modifier that essentially says if capital give base tax income of 10000000
Making this a decision-based experiment is probably terrible, both for performance and tampering with the will-do. Much better to just console command 999999999 ducats or whatever the cap is.
Hey! How about use some filter like XBR to icons so it wont be soo pixelated. You can use some online site, but using some on PC software will be better.
Issue is, the base resolution for those icons are literally 40x40 pixels, and sometimes as low as 20x20. It’s not a great base to work from, and I mean I even did AI upscaling for a bit but yeah.
Vassals literally get +50% dev cost. Mod that out and the AI vassals actually dev click like mad men but they can also do it so much it becomes impossible to annex (they out dev annexation)
Come discuss infinite money scaling in my discord: discord.gg/HaRWvm37Gu
how is assigava with its vasale swarm then shudent they be rolling and can spam inf troops when they have like 30 or more vasales?
It really depends. If the AI is my enemy, they'd use that infinite money to spam infinite stacks of mercs. If they're my ally, they'd find a way to get into 5876 ducats of debt anyway.
True!
And if they're next to you while you're in a death war against someone else, they'll dig deep into their pockets to give them 300 ducats as an OPM all the time while you might get one if you're 3:1 against the Ottomans and Venice hasn't been beaten into the curb. And even then they'll try to give you some crappy loan with worse interest than the normal ones.
Ally will not enter war Negative: -100 4815 in debt
Vladimir Putin moment
i have seen venice hire 200k mercs out of 50k forcelimit before, it’s insane
Why do I immediately assume that they'd build naval batteries in every province and debase currency still?
... yeah same
I did this and they build docks everywhere.
One situation where mercenary ideas are actually strong. If everyone can have infinite mercs, the ones with better mercs win.
Fair point!
I would disagree, because you can't have infinite mercs (there are only so many complanies you can hire). So, ideas buffing regular troops (the number of which you don't have a hard limit on) and ideas buffing manpower balance are better.
@deepspacewanderer9897 early game mercenary ideas would be the best idea in the game though. Better mercs and more merc manpower and you will have way more force limit of mercs than you will be able to maintain regular units.
Later after expanding across the globe you have access to way more mercenary companies and retaining army professionalism while also making use of the additional manpower mercs provide ensures that the idea group will still be valuable.
The lack of consolidation is something I wish we *actually* saw more of. Seems like by 1600, there are like less than 30 tags in europe.
That's fair, although in some sense the AI has to be more aggressive since the player certainly is.
yeah like irl france didnt own the france region until around the time of the revolution so it should be much rarer for them to grab it all by like 1500 and be expanding into iberia and the low countries
That’s why there should be mechanics in place to make map painting less viable for both the player and the ai in eu5
I think the game just makes too little restrictions on the size of the country and too many punishments for having a lot of vassal states/great autonomy
@@cnutsiggardason2014 Wish they'd play more tall, or aggressive money/prestige wars
I once saw Muscovy doing good territory wise (Neva, Smolensk, Kazan and Astrakhan conquered by 1500), but when I switched to them, it was terrible. Corruption, low admin tech, giant debt, rebellions. So I've decided to fix that. Removed corruption, gave them admin tech 9, spent mil points on rebels (and cheated more mil points), as well as gave them 20000 ducats for all. 10 years later, they somehow went into debt again, but at least they now have docks at the coast of the White Sea. Imagine building buildings that boost your economy. This post was made by the AI gang.
Real life russia Stat
Sounds like the whole "AI doesn't realise it has money unless it's income" problem shown in the video. You gave them an injection of money with cheats, but because it was a flat sum in treasury, AI would just keep running a deficit and wait to go broke again instead of using the money to build buildings or employ advisors to fix its problems.
@@martenkahr3365 no way just like in real life
the problem with EU4 and reason the AI is so bad is because the human players don't have to factor corruption
@@Alexander_the_Greatestliteral npc
For some reason, when you described what the AI does with the button, all that came up in my head was a toddler who just has to press the button no matter what.
i thought about a scenario in which the ai could stackwipe 50k but stops moving their armies in order to press that button lol
Other less thorough EU4 youtuber would just make an effortless timelapse with just the first version of the idea (the decision) and wouldn't make the income version for months (if at all) due to the similar video existing. Meanwhile here is our adored Lemon Cake being such a chad to actually do a proper research and execute his idea the first try. Not only that, but also do it in somewhat generously abridged 15 minutes video, also elaborating on how he did everything instead of giving vague "well I just made a modifier" (although I would say he could have go the trouble to disable the economic hegemony, but it was a small factor by the end of the day so whatever)
Ah thanks! When it comes to disabling Econ Hegemon, I decided to keep it on purposes as it provided at least an arbitrary reason to get more income, although in fairness what I should have disabled was vassal tax income, as instead of a question of actual eco scaling, it was just a question of how many vassals you had to tax.
It'd be interesting to see how a player could exploit this.
Mercs would be great. As I understand it, mercs are limited. So each region only has a certain number of hire-able merc stacks. Normally that limit is plenty, but I could see it being an issue here. Still super exploitable.
Also force limit is suddenly a mere suggestion. Losing men in a war would be more meaningful, as manpower becomes a much larger factor in how many men you can field.
I mean I struggle with mercs per region already, but then again that's MP death wars for you
1:32 Integer overflow, not stack overflow
🤓
EDIT: Elaboration:
Integer overflow is when a number goes so big it flips the sign bit and goes negative
Stack overflow is when a computer programs requests more memory than it is able to receive
Yeah true
In non-Ironman mode I’ve given the AI hundreds of thousands of mana, they dev every province they own to ~30 at about one dev click per month.
Great video! Would love to see you mess more with the AI, it's a fun concept and it's interesting to see how it thinks.
paid 11k for a trade port in india / VJ - 10 years later i own the whole of south india and the war with vj they had 0 mercs that i noticed, unless they were all afk in north india out of sight, they didnt spend a penny of my 11k on survivng, prolly just on buildings in the land i took months later
I think there was actually a major change in the first campaign you showed. Versailles was upgrading to level 3 by 1500, and they had the other great project at 2 as well. And they had like 15-20 manufactories by 1500. That’s great reinvestment by the French ai, in my book. (Running 5 total advisor levels though is criminal)
My guess is since the projects are mostly upfront payment, the ai look at the money they have, see they have a bunch, see they are not losing money, then try and find a way to spend all the money without increasing monthly costs above a certain % of income they have.
I love being the economic hegemon because I placed a textile manufactory and workshop in a whole two dye provinces while the AI decides to deathstack 500 artilery on a province with 40 supply cap
But what would it look like in 1700…?
Please no
@@LemonCake101 Please yes
a dozen opms with 500 ships raiding your coastlines xD
Trust me. My Ally will still go into debt not being able to join a war.
cool video, you are putting alot of effort into this channel
Thanks, working on it :)
In my eyes, the AI basically already has infinite money. I've only ever seen one nation go bankrupt, once, and it was literally just Lubeck as a OPM. That was it, I've seen them in insane debt but never bankruptcy.
AI is very ‘insane debt averse’ that they will choose to get full annexed then take extra debt
I've always been under the assumption that the AI cheats hard in paradox games. Like I've seen them flat out ignore fort zones of control in EUIV.
@@Wulfric_VIXIII Yeah, AI gets to cheat with fort zones. If they have any legal path to their target provice at all, then they are allowed to take the shortest path through all fort zones. They only get stopped if there's no legal path at all. If let's say AI Poland-Lithuania gets the MA to go to Moscow through Ottomans, India and China by a Siberian detour, then they're immediately allowed to walk over your fortlines directly.
More importantly: they can even cross areas that they wouldn't have a legal path to, if they start walking to a legal target on the other side. With the Muscovy example: say you have a solid fortline around your core territory from Urals to the Caucasus to the Baltic Sea. But they get MA to go around and siege the forts in the Urals. They can start marching from Poland directly over the "secure" zone to reach the forts that would stop them on the other side. And I'm pretty sure they're allowed to recalculate and change direction if your armies get near them to intercept, making them stuck in your "core" territory until they shattered retreat.
@@Wulfric_VIXIII Oh, they definitely do - In CK3 for example, I've seen a single county in scotland produce an army nearly on-par with a unified ireland. They had no allies, weren't anyone's vassals, weren't a fractured part of a previous larger power, etc. - but somehow they had a military comparable to a small kingdom, despite being a lone county. It was absurd.
I love buffing random nations in my saves with money and army tradition.
12:40 In my current campaign (Austria WC) Morocco did the sme thing. They began colonizing the ivory coast and even south africa. And that is not even the most cursed part of the campaign.
Considering how mana works, this means that it's acrually better to have a lot of vassals than own directly in this case.
That's why i give my colonial nations 2 ducats subsidies. That is enough to at least run one colony so they actually expand.
Imagine a multiplayer game like this
The AI doesn't seem to build courthouses for the gov cap. A country with only 1 state and 200 dev doesn't benefit from it, but the France would.
fun fact, if the ai has 1million ducats, it will build up army and ships way over limit (when beeing mid game like 1600s)
great britain for me had ship forcelimit of 150~ ships but had 650 ships in total, as an example
The decision is maybe less AIish than my first default of adding to base tax income like you did second lol
AI is smart
I just realised I ain’t subscribed yet I watch nearly all ur videos 😂
Can i have infinite money too?
Sure, just show me to how to mod it in for the outside game
@@LemonCake101 tax fraud
get famous and scam people with crypto haha
Bit of advice, maybe add a ‘| E4’ to your video titles, because right now it’s really hard to figure out what the video is about before you click it
I really had no idea this was EU4 before seeing the up next
Bro found the infinite money glitch frfr
How do I mod reality
@@LemonCake101 tax fraud
@@LemonCake101Tax evasion
@Medvelelet
even with tax evasion you would still need a business with costumers haha
But what are the long term consequences in a game that you use a mod to increase the amount of idea groups you can take?, Does the ai exploit it? Or does the ai make more of the most mind boggling choices? (Also. What ideas would you take if you could get an idea group for every tech level for 10 tech levels?, I'd probably go innovative into court or something (extra splendor is never a bad thing, and idea cost reduction would be necessary to get all idea groups filed before the end of the game) then go humanist or religious (humanist for idea cost, religious for tolerance of the true Faith) and start stacking things to create an undeniably op nation that even makes use of the idea groups exclusive to certain government types)
I would guess they would take the ideas, but fail to abuse unless they do so by accident. The AI also as you identified doesn't like to take humanist if they have religious already, and stuff like that, so its good to make sure they have enough idea groups to actually grab
ai tend to preffer admin ideas or if not it will go heavily into military (did this with non limited choice for ideas) there were no colonise idea but a decent amount of expansion ideas.
the ai still picks like the ai does (surprisingly, even overhaul mods idea groups suffer from this), the consequences are just less development and slightly lower tech as the ai spends mana on pointless groups
If you ran this test with my colonial nations they would spend them all on churches and cogs
1:30 Do you mean integer overflow? Or does the AI logic actually stack overflow?
Integer Overflow in fairness, I do get the two confused
Love these videos even if I have to slow it to 90% speed
I've tested this extensively on some old patches. AI behaves very differently based on whether you give it infinite INCOME vs just money in the "bank". Try giving a "temporary" bonus for 999999 months which gives +9999999 income monthly (don't go overboard as giving too much runs into issues)
Nevermind, I just watched the vid
i would actually still like to have the infinite money mod myself for playing around with it
I think depends in the ruler statistics
I would also be serious to see how the AI deals with infinite monarch points. In my experience they just sit on it instead of devving or anything
I was thinking that, but I will need to delete the native Americans and stuff because they migrate daily
@@LemonCake101 Finally, new world is fixed
Would like to see someone consolidate Africa as Morocco. How ho you claim pieces of land not owned by anyone?
Can you add this modifier to your Rome mod, ya boy needs help.
Maybe if I give it only to the AI
Imagine if hte AI knew it didnt need the colonist in the colonies and could just colonise every province in colonial range at once... maybe that'd cost more the free money...
Good point: I didn't consider that at all, but that would absolutely be the thing to do
I was expecting you to give it to one single country, like a small country and see how he will do against the other AIs
Awesome video
However... What if all nations had less money? How would that go?
Bankruptcy, they already struggle hard enough as it is
I've seen Marroco colonize the ivory coast literally every single EU4 game i have ever played
u need to do a campain with AIs have this mod u not
That could be quite fun actually!
I imagine there'd be a *lot* of peace treaties asking for war reparations...
@@hoi-polloi1863 oh true, I would need to disallow that
@@LemonCake101 and also disallow all subjects or disable the modifier for them.
Okay but what if you give only 1 country infinite money
Could add triggered modifier to give countries monthly income instead.
Would be interesting to see how that differs from this
I did indeed do that.. in the video?
Yeah, that's what happened in the video. Tax income is still monthly like every other income, the game just calculates tax income and all its related modifiers as annual values under the hood for some reason, but still pays out 1/12th of your current annual tax income every month.
@@LemonCake101 Did not sound like it. Sounded like you gave a decision for them to click that gave them income when they clicked it.
@@whitehawk4099 did you.. watch the video? I did that first and the other 2/3rds of the video is the income modifier…
This, kids, is why you finish watching before leaving comments
For the AI I wish they'd get claims more easily. A lot of nations just don't do all that much in AI hand because they don't get the claims they need to progress.
I see this in hoi4 all the time but I never see this in eu4
Now if they also had infinite manpower would that make a bigger difference.
I was thinking of doing that
Oceania?
honestly those Americas seem pretty normal, I find until the 1700s basic ai colonisers cant do anything and the Confederations blob
Maybe add a 1 day cool down?
Issue is, that doesn't prevent spamming much anyway; 100 AI's popping a decision every day isn't great either, and having it disappear past 10k achieves the goal
@@LemonCake101
Just figured something out that would probably be best solution. Give every province a conditional modifier that essentially says if capital give base tax income of 10000000
@ that’s.. a lot of if triggers checking every day
You should give every country it's own custom religion as see what AI does
I would guess its best
Ok but what about infinite monarch points?
Natives migrate daily and refused to hand over my CPU
@@LemonCake101 kid named remove natives mod:
Now what about giving just one country infinite money?
Depends on the country: probably not enough to make the country an instant win
My blind prediction is lag.
now do it again with scattered europa mod.
Please no
@@LemonCake101 oh yes ;)
Im from 2333, What the fuck is money?
now do a video for each of the other resources pretty please
could be fun!
maybe AI just doesn't like to develop out of Primary culture.
I don’t need to know what the AI does with the infinite money, they will find a way to bankrupt their entire country.
now do one country has an infinite income
Making this a decision-based experiment is probably terrible, both for performance and tampering with the will-do. Much better to just console command 999999999 ducats or whatever the cap is.
Thankfully having the decision go away helps with that, and either way income is the way to go as discussed in the second part of the video
*INFINITE INFLATION*
Stack as *little* morale as possible
When everyone has infinite money nobody does
you cant really do much with money. specially when you have alot of it
not subsidies, you should just make the base tax that's normally 10 ducats, into 10 000 ducats
I mean what I did achieves the exact same thing
@LemonCake101 I guess but you essentially gave a massive advantage to larger nations
@@dazeen9591 .. no? Every country gets +10k base tax income
@@LemonCake101 why did France have 27.5K then ?
@LemonCake101 that's not true 😂 you didn't watch your own video ?
Hey! How about use some filter like XBR to icons so it wont be soo pixelated. You can use some online site, but using some on PC software will be better.
Issue is, the base resolution for those icons are literally 40x40 pixels, and sometimes as low as 20x20. It’s not a great base to work from, and I mean I even did AI upscaling for a bit but yeah.
"enough self shitting"
'shilling' smh my head
Why does the AI become a total vegetable when they become my vasal or PU? No development whatsoever.
Vassals literally get +50% dev cost. Mod that out and the AI vassals actually dev click like mad men but they can also do it so much it becomes impossible to annex (they out dev annexation)
dont care, 1.25x speed
virgin 'you speak too quick' vs chad 'I have places to be'
I don’t need to know what the AI does with the infinite money, they will find a way to bankrupt their entire country.