Thats... actually really tragic, I would've enjoyed listening to something like that. A simple fix would've been to play the alien soundtracks in the navi scenes, and the traditional blockbuster soundtracks when the military is on scene. Further emphasizing the war between the two parties.
The problem is, these stories are always about getting the audience to Sympathize With The Other and feel guilty about their own identity; this is however hard to accomplish when the Other is actually truly alien to one's sensibilities, including the aesthetic, and the Bad Guy is more familiar and relatable. If the villainous humans were identified with the familiar sounds, textures, and harmonies of movie heroism and the virtuous aliens identified with textures and tones not only unfamiliar but possibly unpleasant and even anxiety-inducing, this might have the wrong effect. In fact, this is why the film completely failed to resonate with me, and in fact made me angry, particularly the scene where the entire planet Earth and human race are written off as dead and worthless by the wise Navi spirit thing. Like, this film was written by humans. Navi dialogue was written by humans. No Navi were involved in the making of this movie. So it's pure, irredeemable misanthropy, and I came to really dislike the imaginary aliens invented by humans to tell a fundamentally anti-human story, and an analogue to one which treats the part of the human race in which I have my own roots as, again, spiritually dead and worthless. Among my people, I am a mutant; I do not possess our endemic, genetic self-hatred.
@@Hesperell I took it as heroism and good spanning across cultures. I never saw this film as portraying humanity as a whole, but more on the individuals and their choices, whether to harm others or stand up for them.
It seems like such a basic concept right? To give either side of a conflict their own music style to give them more of their own identity? Hell, I'd add more of an industrial sound to the space marines or whatever they're called to play up the technology vs nature aspect. It would be something to make the space marines sound more villainous. But I'm not James Cameron, so what the fuck do I know about anything?
It is possible that the original music did sound like shit 🤷♂️ I mean there are a lot of different types of music out there and each has bangers and garbage, who knows 🤷♂️
"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. Things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, some of those may become the favourite sounds in your musical world." What a great closing statement from her. There's so much beautiful music we could discover if we'd be a little bit more adventurous.
Fittingly, I've seen Papyrus used to evoke South American, African, Asian, Australian and Norse cultures. It's the typeface hacks use when they need a quick and free "universally ethnic" font. So it's perfect for Avatar.
@@strikerbowls791 yeah, so it is Comic Sans, but every font has something to tell, comic sans its meant to be a "comic like" font, originaly meant for children in microsoft bob. papyrus is extremly overused, is not a bad font, not at all, but it already come to me as LAZY design, is like using "Trajan" for every single medieval film.
At least they got paid for all this work. Not as good as letting their artistic voices they were paid for actually be heard, but he didn't write them a hot check or anything.
@@dr_lubaba Money is the most important part about doing a job for hire. If you want to pay me to grill a burger only to promptly toss it in the trash and make a different burger yourself, you've wasted your time, my time, all the money you spent on my labor, and the ingredients of the burger but since I was compensated for my time I'm only _mildly_ insulted. Money isn't everything, but it's still a lot.
WHAT!! I took ethnomusicology with Dr. Bryant at PCC like a million years ago, this is blowing my mind lol. Her class was so much fun, and she was such a nice person! She brought in a friend of hers (who's a prince and a globally accomplished drummer??) to play the dundun, and she introduced us not only to dozens of cool instruments but also to why they were such a product of the culture they came from. Super cool lady, great teacher, and I knew she was awesome but I definitely did not realize at age 18 that she was such a Big Deal. This feels so surreal lol.
"Something that could be understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota." I love this statement. Something meant to be global actually being restricted to a vertical strip of 700 miles. I'm picturing audiences all over the world scratching their heads and confusedly looking around at each other in theaters when the scene plays, while people in Nebraska and Kansas are openly weeping.
I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as James Cameron's genius wit unfolds itself on their cinema screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 I'm sorry, that's what sprout up in my mind when I read your last sentence. You're right though! It's so idiotic that he actually just had American audiences in mind. Ugh, Hollywood..
I actually love this channel - I'm not a music student or anything, but the the passion this guy talks with is infectious!!! Everything is so well written and researched I wish this stuff got more recognition than it does :)
Same, and it is making me more aware of music in films and god did he blow my mind once or twice- this damn interesting and now i would love to hear the original score they came up with
@@rudeminnesotan yeah, one could never guess what I do in college (art student) by looking at my channel subscriptions. Sure I have art channels, but also science, history, linguistic, law, and of course, music.
Absolutely the same here! I have never once given thought to the music in movies beyond "o that sound gud" but since finding this channel, I have been consistently blown away by the thought and effort that can be put into the finest details of music for it to make the maximum impact! It's amazing how he takes information that I would have once deemed as "boring" and presents it in such a well thought out and passionate argument, it's just amazing to hear. I have even been able to convince my husband to listen to a few clips and also be blown away haha.
Same I understand at most half of what he's saying, but it's just so interesting how much though goes into a musical score and how much symbolism is hidden in there
Yeah, me too. First I didn't even want to watch this video, I was like "okay there were a couple nice-sounding songs there, but iconic?", but then I read it again and this was some very good content.
You could have clothing or weaving more as part of their identity, like maybe give one of the na’bi special clothes once they reach a certain age or something like that, naw just have em look like African tribes lul.
Seeing this video, I’ve got two thoughts: Sideways is not being snarky, he is genuinely pissed at the colossal amount of wasted potential in such an ironic sense. Secondly, I hope these demos can see the light of day. They from the sound of it seem amazing.
It's a bit of both. He seriously thinks James Cameron did Avatar for $$$. It's clear Cameron has passion for filmmaking but go off on money making potential.
There’s a song by TheFatRat and Maisy Kay called ‘The Calling’. It uses some of the lyrics from the weaving song, and I feel like it perfectly shows how they could combine the speech with western musical concepts
I haven't watched the movie yet but i hope they brought back some of the horner's work that "seemed too alien". It would be a shame if it got lost completely
NO. NO YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TEXTILES BRO. Like, they hired actually weavers and textile experts to hand make ALL the textiles as life-sized references for the 3D modelers and texture artists. Like, they could have easily just had people wearing this stuff and carrying it around and sleeping in it IRL... but they did it JUST TO GET THE TEXTURE RIGHT. That's insane.
"This doesn't sound right to me." "You hired me to make music that nobody has ever heard before, what did you expect?" "I had no idea what to expect, I'd never heard this music before."
Yeah. sometimes when you experiment, the experiment doesn’t go over well and you have to try something else, for all you know the music while creative, could’ve been garbage because of how basically takes from multiple unrelated cultures whose musical traditions might conflict. People are being so ungenerous for no reason, this sort of thing happens all the time in cinema, it’s not a big deal
@@cantthinkofaname5046 Literally the only reasonable take on this whole page. It was clearly an experiment that JC was willing to try, and scrap if it wasn't good enough. Pretty standard practice for any experiment.
The thing is, people aren't blank slates, objectively judging whether a piecie of music is good or not. Whether we want to or not, we always judge what we hear in the light of what we know and what we are used to. Therefore, it is to be expected that the result of this experiment would not sound good to a western ear, it's a much, much more likely outcome than the opposite. So why waste all the time and money on the ordeal, if what he wanted was something that sounded good to westerners?
@@absta1995 We don't even know what it sounded like. How can you discredit something we don't even know how it sounds? Secondly this is a matter of taste and your comment kinda shows you probably live between Oklahoma to South Dakota. To me the current sound track sounds so bland I would much rather have a failed experiment.
Might not be the most original name but it’s not like he invented it. The term has existed in sci-fi for a while, there’s even a Wikipedia page for it.
"To be understood by all... from Oklahoma to South Dakota" This reminds me of that joke from Ryan Higa: "Alright guys, I've narrowed it down... Countries all over the United States..."
@@mune3351 oklahoma and south dakota are both states in the US, but the implication of “to be understood by all” implies it would have been across multiple continents and cultures.. its hilarious because the two examples that are framed to sound so far away from each other (again, on a worldwide scale) are in the same *country,* excluding the entirety of the rest of the world and contradicting his attempt at a universal analogy. Ed: unless he really only wanted the soundtrack to appeal to american (or otherwise generally western) audiences, in which case its even funnier that he surmounts “all” to just “people in the west.”
The lady who helped with the plant science actually spoke at my high school. She’s pretty neat and gave a lot of interesting tidbits about both the production and she helped design and describe the fictional fauna.
*flora. Fauna are animals. I doubt the plant science lady gave an opinion on the animals - unless it was what sort would eat a plant with which specific defenses.
I'm so glad you put the part where Eywa sends wildlife charging into battle to help. The score in that scene absolutely yanked me out of the moment. It was so emotional and then suddenly it felt so... Goofy? It was so out of place and seeing this now, it makes sense why
Probably one of my least favourite moments because the music just doesn't match for that instant, shame cause of the direct next scene with neytiris passionate shouting is acted so well
@@birdienator7377 Yes!! The score could have elevated that scene and made it even MORE perfect, but instead it was a cartoonish moment. So unfortunate.
Can I just LOL at the statement that everyone should relate to the music "from Oklahoma to South Dakota"? Why not just make them space cowboys singing country if that is how narrow the recipients are supposed to be. Why take all these nations that have nothing to do with English, the west and the US, to make a song for the US?
As a cast member in Pandora, I've had to listen to this god forsaken soundtrack for over 2000 hours. I was afraid to watch this for fear of it triggering my flight or fight response. I can tell you that we rarely meet a fan that even knows the names of the main characters or the difference between a Navi, Avatar, and Banshee. It's weird because they make us learn the lore and then never get to use it unlike when I worked at Galaxys Edge. Also ever since they got rid of the Swotwiyeh drum circle it has never been the same.we have a running joke that the next movie will finally be released when the last person who helped open Pandora has retired or transferred away.
It's a shame to know what the music in this film could have been. I seriously commend you for your work, I know nothing about music and such especially for films but it sounds like it was quite a rough time.
I am convinced, utterly convinced if they had let the soundtrack be the alien experimentation it could’ve been, this movie would’ve been powerful for a far better reason
"They could literally be singing about what they had for lunch and it wouldn't make a difference" well... actually, considering they wanted songs based on their every day life (weaving song, hunting song) a song about lunch would actually be more of what they wanted, instead of, you know, a song called 'circle-branch-six'
It was just a random example. If he said they could have been saying random sounds it's the same thing, so it's independent of following the daily life idea
When this came out, I thought it was just a big blockbuster that capitalized on cutting edge special effects and pretty much nothing else. After learning about everything else that they were trying to do with the movie, I'm beyond disappointed with how much potential they wasted. They could have pushed the boundaries of literally EVERYTHING. This literally could have been the new LOTR with added groundbreaking non-western cross cultural music being introduced to the Western world. But nope. We just got fancy blue Pocahontas instead. I guess there's a reason why people consider this movie "the most successful movie that nobody remembers." I only even remember the name Nav'i because it reminds me of Legend of Zelda...
A movie with a huge bible of worldbuilding but a weak story is randomly put together to make money and give something easy for audiences without regards for meaning or consistency... hasn't something like that happened recently... (eyes glaze over new star wars)... Nah, Avatar's scripts was far less messy.
@@maximeteppe7627 only new star wars...? All of Star Wars suffers from this, I love the movies, all of them (well... Most) but they're all just tropes over tropes over tropes and the empty space filled by space battles. The comics and the series (Clone Wars specifically) did a MUCH better job of worldbuilding
@@majestichorseman1321 when the original movies were made, where was no expansive bible to draw from. The prequels are weird but they do complexify things thematically and lore wise. They failure of execution lies more in the dialogue and directing than in the overall story. The sequels though, they are a mess rushed to theater to make back the 5 billions investment as quick as possible, with one ambitious but chaotic entry in the middle.
@@maximeteppe7627 yeah, on-paper the prequel trilogy is just as good as (if not better than) the originals if you're judging them based on overall plot, theming, lore... they have a profound message that they do actually try to say, they just fumble the delivery. Well, more like... dropped it off a cliff, but you get the idea.
It is sad to find out about this because all of the different or 'alien' sounds and songs where actually my favourite parts of the movie, they sounded very intimate and spiritual and made me really emotional.
Also strong European conquests/imperialism connotations. Our armies used bugles/brass, fifes, and drums. For centuries those marching bands, etc, were probably feared by local/indigenous populations! (just a guess, but I'd be running in the opposite direction if in their place!)
I can't remember his name but that's why the guy who did the music for the Battlestar Galactica reboot specifically avoided using the most commonly used orchestral sections, brass and strings, to make the world feel more alien.
I think brass just became very popular for general "royal" connotations even when places are non-European. Take for instance Black Panther, you hear a lot of brass in the score for the shots of Wakanda. Would've been nice to introduce more native sounds but they weren't felt strongly enough.
I'm a biologist, and I tell you, I almost weeped in the theater. I mean, I was in bio/eco heaven. Paraphrasing Weaver, I just wanted to take some samples. I apreciated the hell out of how "extra" this movie went. That said, I'd really, really, REALLY love to watch this movie with a completely remade soundtrack, this time ignoring Cameron and just going with what Horner and Dr. Brian come up.
I'm in total agreement with you about the biological aspect of the film. I would kill to hear it with the original soundtrack, and a narrative that doesn't turn into a painful white savior story halfway through. Basically, we need a sequel that has nothing to with war, humanity, or conflict, and dives more into the lore that they developed and literally never showed us.
@@RosyMiche I'm hoping that they'll try to correct their mistakes in the next film, seeing as they have proof now that it's a profitable franchise with their generic first film, and they can try to be more creative and go back to the original soundtrack and ideas for future films.
This video perfectly explains why Avatar paradoxically feels both “well-made” & “poorly-made” at the same time! - The ppl in charge of the worldbuilding & production put a lot of care into their work. The man in charge of everything ignored their efforts.
@@vanessag368Yeah, not every single piece of world building is going to fit into the movie. It's remarkable how much Cameron managed to fit into the movie while still telling a cohesive story and keeping the runtime to a mere 3 hours.
James cameron wanted to fully show the avatar universe that he made up. for that he needs money, a lot of it. So for him to actually make all the stuff he wants, he needs to be very successful. So while he will include as much of the lore as possible, he will not try and use things that will probably reduce the audience. A completely new style of music would do that, as would completely alien life. Idk about you but I wanna listen to nice music while watching a movie, not some uber realistic stuff that sounds weird, just like I want to be able to look at the animals and go "that's a neat looking horse" instead of "what the fuck is that eldritch abomination" hence I would not watch movies that are centered around such things and James cameron loses profit, therefore less avatar made, therefore james cameron sad.
James Cameron: I want it to sound non-western,something never heard before **it sounds literally alien,something nobody heard before** James Cameron: **surprised Pikachu.jpg**
This... really is depressing. Horner put a lot of effort into a soundtrack we will never hear and now (RIP, James) never will hear anything like. I hope Cameron lives up to his promise that the sequels will be even bolder on ALL fronts and give us actual alien music.
As much as I'd wish for the same, I highly doubt they would use actual alien music. Sequel soundtracks are usually pretty much copy and pasted from the previous film. I can't imagine them willing to go out of their way to create a very different sounding sequel.
@@darKILLusionnn There's also the fact that now Disney owns it. Disney is not much for risk taking, creating such bland material lately. They would never allow it.
I really liked this score. But now all I want to hear is the original sounds and songs for the movie. It could’ve been a great way to push the boundaries of blockbuster film scores
I would love if we got everyone who worked on the music, to release an album of everything that was scrapped. Sadly, I think everything an artist creates under direction of a filmmaker, is copyrighted to that filmmaker. Like how all the concept art for Disney animation has a 'Property of Disney' watermark instead of the artist's signature.
Might I make a recommendation? There is a soundtrack from another movie that (to me) sounds more na'vi than the actual movie. it's the soundtrack from "Time Machine" made in 2002. I listen to it all the time. Check it out.
The irony about the tree song is that the moment you played the first note i remembered it all. It had such beautiful feeling and a uniqueness that i loved. And now i find out THERE WAS MORE THAT WE DIDNT GET!!!!? If the whole movie was like that I'd probably like it more! I might even love it. But absolutely I'd respect it!!!!
Why the hell did they not create some generic Hollywood score for the humans (brass and whatnot), and actually use the unusual alien-like score for the Navi? Wtf?? Too much of a statement for a blockbuster?
As much as I love this idea, I think Cameron might have worried that if he had used generic Hollywood action movie music for the humans, and unfamiliar aliens scores for the Navi, the Western audience would have been more incline to side with the 'evil corporation' humans instead, since their soundtrack along with other things made them much more familiar and recognisable.... While the Navi's soundtrack might have made them too 'alien' for the audiences's comfort, hence making them less relatable. Which was not the emotional reaction he wanted for the viewers.
Remember when one of the most popular sci fi films, 2001: a space odyssey, had a completely "alien" soundtrack of swarming violins and vocals? How unadventurous it's all become.
Well, come on, the generically unspecific 'ethnic' culture has to be easily digestible and consumable for western markets. They couldn't have anything to innovative, unfamiliar or challenging.
There's a whole lot of wasted potential throughout the whole film, and the lack of consistency in the story is just disheartening. Done right it could have been a game changer with amazing music but it was squandered. I'd love to hear those unused demos too
I had the computer game and it came with a shortened digital encyclopaedia which unlocks more pages as you progress in the game. It also focussed on the idea of the songs as tools or puzzle pieces to activate the planet's self defence- a network to the spiritual world like they showed in the body-switch ritual at the end. Sadly it also had two fatal flaws: you never heard the music, just got a silent montage of them swaying; and it suffered from the White Saviour trope (wherein the human main character was the 'chosen one,' not someone who actually lives on the planet).
It's a piece of shit. Plain and simple. And it's not even as amazing CGI as everyone said and says it is. Bad story, above average CGI but not amazing, overhyped.
I agree its such a shame. Plus I honestly found the score to be extremely dull as well. Just the usual generic world music mixed with "DUN DUN DUUUUNNNN" brass sounds for the bad guys.
@@spinlok3943 yeah...basically background noise.. very simple minimal sounds that you barely even notice. Most movies use it nowadays like every generic action movie lol.
I would love to hear a follow-up now that Avatar 2 is out. And it's interested to watch this after Hans Zimmer very deliberately attempted to make an alien soundtrack with "non-Earth" instruments for Dune. The music is so much of what makes that world feel so off-worldly. It's lamentable that Avatar didn't have that effect because it didn't follow through with that intention.
when you started talking about the music I was like: damn that's cool I really need to watch the movie again and pay attention to the music..... well that went downhill so fast such a shame :/
It still pretty awesome. Especially the last few minutes of "Gathering of All the Navi clans for Battle". I don't care what anyone says. That melody is just.....god damn I'm gonna go listen to it again.
I find the comment about the western "ethnic" music being what they *think* ethnic music funny in a sad way, because that statement isn't just for music, it's such a wide range of art from music to architecture to clothing. Hell, I had written an essay back in my college English class that touched on "chinoiserie" (trying to remember how it's spelled off the top of my head.) It was about Chinese porcelain, and how the preferred style for the Chinese at the time was to have things be a simple, pure, delicate white with maybe some blue, but potters created and sold over-decorated, gaudy stuff that was totally unrecognizable and "alien" to them to European traders since that fit the European perception as what actual Chinese-style pottery looked like.
I mean even the Chinese hated their style and purged many things to follow Western thought. Couldn't admit they made a mistake to save face so they still got it in them, but with Chinese characteristics as they try to build themselves back up culturally. It's looking like the West is about to run into the same thing. As it was then as it is now, the ones supporting a future they say they do not want are the ones claiming to be fighting against it while only fighting themselves.
As a linguistics major, the idea of having to learn ejectives made my heart stop. Those are _so_ difficult to do if you weren't raised natively with them.
I didn't know that word so I looked 'em up and -- HECK those are strange and difficult -- to my ear of course, perfectly normal to others! Thanks for the new knowledge, linguistics is badass
My language has those so I never appreciated the struggle until a friend tried to learn my language and that way also ejectives. He’s come a long way but there’s still room to improve
The thing that I find utterly weird about all the worldbuilding for Avatar is they paid for it, but never really seem to have pushed it as any part of the movie promo? Focusing instead on the story (which barely existed outside of cut+paste from other films) and the SFX (which were cool, but don't engage people over time). But then, I guess creating all that worldlore & then just deviating from it whenever he felt like doing lazy storytelling would make things difficult...? 😒 When you think about how hard the LOTR team leaned into the created cultural aspects of their films, and got their audience so completely engaged.... One can only hope that with the new movies finally releasing, Cameron will allow his collaborators to get more of the limelight?? 🙄 And thank you for this, it finally explains a lot of things, inc. why that Tree of Souls song sounded so weird in the midst of the rest of the soundtrack!
@@RailwayPenguin I mean, not incredibly close together. Oklahoma is a state that's central in the country and near (not at) the southern boarder where South Dakota a state that's central in the country that's near (not at) the northern boarder, so it's a really really weird analogy to draw.
@@sjhsoccer Actually, I am from South Dakota, and have visited Oklahoma, the culture's are actually quite similar. I have no relatives from or around Oklahoma, yet I find I have more in common with people I've met from there that I do with many people in North dakota or Montana. You may have heard of that dialect test where it guesses where you are from based on the words you use, and it actually guessed western oklahoma for me. (Yes it's just an anecdote, but I think it is still somewhat informative)
@@javierivanreyes8608 probably have sideways start a gofundme or petition to either retrieve that score, or pay to have that soundtrack done that way again, or start collecting these interesting sounds and finding a composer to give this a shot.
@@karmapolice247 These are all great ideas, it is a corporation after all though, so they'd need the incentive of people wanting it and the ability to make a profit to actually begin considering it.
The way directors blame the audience for these sorts of simplifications is really irritating. How do they know we wouldn't like or understand it if we never get a chance to see it in the first place?
We do it through our money vote, it's just that both Avatars have shown to be extremely profitable so they take it to make more stuff like that. If you want to hear more unique soundtracks, I guess we have to make the Dune sequel a blockbuster success.
@@thepeanuts55But the primary reason the film did well was the CGI. The story is blatantly unoriginal, the acting is okay at best, never really challenging the actors, but that didn't matter. The music could've been alien and it wouldn't have made a difference in the profits.
It’s kinda wild but in a sense that’s their job. Good directors get people who are really good with at their craft and inspire them to make art. Then the director comes in and formats,tweaks, etc to what they made into coherent cohesive marketable content. and that’s the kicker- the designers don’t talk with investors…the directors do. So if you’re trying to convince someone with money that an audience will like it for the purpose to give money in advance? You are going to do your best to know what’s “marketable”. Now is this a good way to make art? Not really. But that’s the system productions are made from.
@@AlX-Ander Bullshit. Plenty of movies have great CGI and don't make a fraction of Avatar. For example- Dune and Bladerunner 2049. Great CGI, middling box office profits. Avatar speaks to people on a deep level even if it doesn't for you.
This explains it perfectly. The first time I watched this movie I had just moving into a high school band. I play French Horn, and a more-naïve me would get all excited when I heard a horn solo because I had apparently never watched a blockbuster before. It took me such a long time to realize "Hey, there's a little more than just contextual details in the sound design! Woah!"
Ever watched the video essay called "The Marvel Symphonic Universe: Why all Marvel music sounds the same"? Go check it out. MCU music is incredibly forgettable with few memorable motifs. There hasn't been a good motif since the first Iron Man. That is on top of the horribly muddy, washed out colours in MCU movies under Disney.
I don't want to sound racist here or anything, and I ABSOLUTELY love multiculture... I want to make that clear! ... but just imagine if there were other cultures outside Oklahoma and South Dakota... It cannot happen of course, but... just imagine! It is weird, I know, but just give it a try!... Let our imagination fly free!!! Wow!!!
Music team: *Makes music that sounds nothing like what people have heard before, sounding so alien that it was perfect for the story" Director:*Doesn't want it cause it sounds like something he hasn't heard before, sounding so alien that it was too weird to him* Music team: "Isn't this what you wanted?" Director: "Yes, but technically no"
Whilst it would have been more interesting, the cold harsh truth is that it probably would have alienated large parts of the market as well :/. At the end of the day Avatar was a commercial product, and in that regard it succeeded very well. It's just that it never became much more than that.
More like "yes but I don't liiiiiiiiikeeeee iiiiiiittt" It's like asking your girlfriend if she wants food she says "no I'm not hungry at all" and then eats half your food and all your fries "SorRy I gOt HuNGrYyyYyYYyy"
Now I want to hear Hans Zimmers work with the ethnomusicologists. He's demonstrated with the DUNE soundtrack he's very capable of making something entirely alien work
@@alexbustamante6532 Also, "at least it's not western". Dune is absolutely western sounding, chucking in a few non-western instruments and throwing in drones doesn't mean it's not a modern western score that we've heard before.
@@FranticAnimations well what's your definition of something being non-western then? Non-diationical music? Microtonal? The use of pentatonic scales? Complex polyrhythms? Mongolian singing is often used in modern western movies so does that make it now part of the western cultural imaginary? No. I get that soundscapes and synthetic textures are inherently part of the modern media musical vocabulary but Zimmer's combination of synthesis with non-orchestral instruments is definitely"exotic". This isn't an original approach to scoring of course, however, his end result is completely different to anything that I've heard before. I don't know how much you know about synthesis but creating deep and compelling sound textures is such a complicated process. Saying they're just simple synthetic drones is a gross oversimplification.
@@FranticAnimations I'd like you to tell me a movie with a comparable score. I've thought about other major composers that I love but which haven't done anything quite like Dune. Gudnadottir, for instance, killed it with "Joker", but given that she's a cellist, her cello was the prominent feature above the synthetic textures. Goransson's "Tenet" is a demonstration of the insane possibilities of synthesis. I love how he keeps everything within the same aesthetic too, but he has weak lyrical themes. Max Richter is a contemporary composer that constantly combines synthesis with stringed instruments and Johansson's "Arrival" does an incredible job at combining choirs and strings with synthetic atmospheres. As much as I love all of them, notice how none went beyond the synthetic atmosphere plus traditional string orchestra combination. Zimmer went full synth/folklore. If you couldn't find this combination appealing it's fine, but I assure you then that Horner's original music would've seem horrendous to you. Zimmer used some augmented scales that are literally considered to be exotic, but Horner seemed to be heading into full microtonal territory which is further still.
he did not pick the northernmost OR southernmost state.. and also they are not extremely different places, most things can probably be understood oklahoma to south dakota. What was he trying to say with that?
He tried to say "from top to bottom," I think. But he forgot that America is way wider than it is tall, so he basically said, "make a narrow section of our audience appreciate it, and the rest are probably similar enough anyway I guess so I won't even mention them." And he got what he paid for.
God, imagine if the entire movie had instead been scored in this blend-of-cultures style instead of the Hollywood blockbuster style - or if they'd switched between one and the other depending on whose POV the camera was following or some other thing where it supported the narrative. People would have talked about it for decades as a feat of science and art. What a waste of work.
Eh…the soundtrack they ended up using is absolutely gorgeous, one of Horner’s best. It does sound quite unique too, but familiar enough to be relatable. I don’t think a difficult-to-digest soundtrack would have been appropriate for a Hollywood blockbuster
@@arachosia Of course not. You can't conciliate profit with revolutionary media. Even when you put something just mildly progressive, you already get a bunch of reactionaries whining and calling for boycotts.
This is the kind of thing that happens all over the place. Any time you hire an expert consultant, they tell you the right way to do it, the director/producer/whatever says "okay, but that's not what the idiots did in the thing we're copying" so then they copy from the idiots instead of listening to the experts and the cycle continues.
Even deeper than that, for example, it's weird we think we can just 'pick out' sounds (or objects/art/rituals/language) from cultures that sound cool, discordant or sad etc and disconnect them from everything else it's connected to in the culture (the body movement, the interactions it makes, the conversations around it, the learning, real behaviour). These things (namely culture) are so complex and evolve over time, it's weird how we still think we can distill things so easily and be sure it's accurate or think it'll fit together like a puzzle.
Executive producers are famous for doing this kind of stuff where the director instead says “this will be good” and the Executive Producer says “This will not sell, cut it”
@@elfodelputoinfierno Thought this was a shameless plug lol. Thanks mate! Apparently this isn't the very original OST tho, it's still a heavily westernized one and yet they still decided to dumb it down. What a shame
@@uquko6292 oh we're getting more than just a... second sequel. i'm pretty sure cameron wants this franchise to have maybe 4 or 5 movies to it (i wanna say 5 but i could be wrong). we've got the first and second... get ready for more bros in an alien's vocabulary for years to come!
Yeah ! He spent the entire first movie learning to integrate into a culture that wasn't his own, focusing on listening to each other and harmony with nature and all that, only to turn around and become AMERICAN MILITARY DAD n°1548, and impose strict patriarchy over his family
I noticed the difference, but only now do I question how that feels for one of the avatars. They have a fifth finger, so where does that energy reading go? Is it like a phantom limb or what?
It's basically like next level VR, since humans have 5 fingers, why not give the Avatars the same. After all, what would you do when you suddenly have a finger less!
@@maddimagpie What?? Both the avatars and their human users have 5 fingers. Why would there be a phantom limb involved? The "energy reading" of the avatar's fifth finger goes to the human's fifth finger.
Hearing about the mess that was Avatar's production breaks my heart. I know a lot of people don't like the film and the plot is less than original but there was so much potential. I think the saddest thing about it all is that the most interesting parts of Avatar are everything that was left out of the film; unique soundtrack and world-building. I'm still hopeful the sequels will do something interesting but knowing how difficult James Cameron is to work with I don't know...
When i watched it when i was 10 i had this odd feeling that the movie barely scratched it's world, like to be specific one of the animals that is also like a horse, only appears ones in the movie but its used as a vehicle in the wii game, it doesn't do world building right or enough in some way, it doesn't really have that time fall bear packages from death stranding, you know?, little details that sell it as a world more than a vr demo experience that looks amazing, the movie just rushes over the world when our MC is literally an outsider, a new comer to this world that knows nothing or next to non about it, the classic rpg mc, that is built so the user learns about the world alongside him, but the movie knida rushes over this process leaving you with the feeling of wanting to see more and get the protagonist to ask more about the world ffs.
James Horner was like "This whole operation was your idea" It is really depressing that he will never get the chance (to have a possibility) to fix the score for the sequels. James Horner was truly amazing. R.I.P.
That is tragic. And to think that some other composer has to work with the existing material, and probably can't deviate too much from it, for the same reason that the original score wasn't allowed to be too non-western.
After my first two weeks taking a course on film sound in college, I find topics like these fascinating. And the idea of creating a whole new type if music for a new culture sounds just too cool to have been ruined like this. Imagine how all the talented people who worked on scoring and world building felt
Abigail Stein I make African music and I can assure you that the world does not know what it sounds like. They always make it easier for people by gentrification
@@MODIRWA I'm an Indian classical singer, and whenever I hear Indian music in Hollywood or even western UA-cam channels they always use some stereotypical music which sounds nothing like our music but still western people think that's how indian classical music is, and hence nobody bothers to corrects them
You touched on it a little bit but what I also found funny that ties back into your major point is that the lead creature designer for the movie, Wayne Barlowe (who is renowned for making truly alien creatures such as in his amazing book: "Expedition") was told, by James Cameron that all of his alien designs were too alien and needed to be toned down with Earth animal features so western audiences can be comfortable with them (the horse aliens for one of many examples, originally just had a hole for a mouth where the tongue was actually like a mosquito's proboscis, no nostrils so just those vents on their necks that you noticed, and no eyes with just a hollow space going through their heads). So not only did James want (but not really want) alien music, he also wanted a world filled to the brim with alien organisms that weren't really all that alien.
the earthlike theme is purposely created to give a greater emotional impact. People wouldn't be connected with the character nor emotionally impacted if they saw a unrecognizable being and that's clearly not the point of the story that James is trying to tell, which is basic storytelling. If everything in a sci fi movie was for the sake of sci fi then it would rather be a fictional documentary.
@@diogovogel5657 The Pandora fauna didn't make me empathise more with it, but less because I could see they were just earth animals with some alien stuff painted over. Just like all those rubber-forehead humanoids Star Trek is filled with and who I consider more like people with weird birth defects than aliens as a result. And if he didn't want to make a movie with alien aliens then...maybe just don't put the setting in such an environment?
My favorite part of Avatar 2 is how they threw away the entire alien language they invented for the first film to have everyone speak English the whole time
That’s so funny because I was talking with my dad and I pointed out how the Metkayina clan kept picking on the family for being “hybrids” yet they’re literally speaking English lol Edit: yes I’m aware they’re technically speaking na’vi, but regardless it still comes off weird lol so yeah! *no one come for me*
@@cityinsect It still feels cheap. While from a production side of things, you must treat the audience like they are stupid and having subtitles the entire time isn't ideal, it's also not ideal to throw away storybuilding.
@@mynameisambertoo7379 there's still plenty of the language spoken throughout the movie, and it wouldn't be wise to have the entire movie covered with subtitles
@@mynameisambertoo7379 They didn't throw away anything. There's a small scene showing that Jake understands the language so well that it's basically second nature. Plus, it would be stupid to make a movie entirely in a fake language. In the Lord of the Rings, none of the races spoke english, including humans, so Tolkien basically "translated" it for us.
one of the things i find odd about avatar is how the US (or the UK for that matter...) can see the film & *not* manage to be incredibly called out by it, yet somehow it almost completely managed to avoid being interpreted as an epic 'fuck you' to colonialism... which is like, the *entire* story. how?!
Good avatar: let's build a rich world with cool cultures by mixing asian ones. Ends up being unique even if you can recognize the inspirations. Blue avatar: let's make a unique unrecognizable culture. Ends up being obvious native American
I've really been enjoying you're videos including this one, but I wanted to comment because you really made my day today. While watching this video I was surprised to see my cousin's blog, Not Another Music History Cliche, referenced. Sadly, we lost Linda to cancer this year so having her work pop up in your video was an incredible reminder of her legacy. Keep up what you are doing!
As an Aussie I didn't realise Sam Worthington was trying to be American. I was proud to see an Australian actor using their normal accent. Now I'm embarrassed at how bad a job he did.
I think the original concept of blending all the music is super cool. Also the fact they managed to do it is impressive, so James Cameron cutting that out makes me so maaaad
The more I listen the more I think: "Just let the man be Australian!" Good lord, he's trying so hard just to sound American when was that really necessary? Is there any canon reason that he couldn't just be Australian? Was the whole continent wiped out or is Mad Max canon to this world? lol
Remember James Cameron’s line about wanting to make this “relatable to “everyone”, from Oklahoma to South Dakota” But still like I’m pretty sure no one would freak out about a dude talking a bit differently.
@@naman-mishra Yeah people in the mid west US have ALWAYS been accepting of other people's cultures. Especially Oklahoma where there was "the trail of t..." ... Oh wait....
Because a Hollywood blockbuster is not about to have their central white man main character, not American, nothing to do with him being Australian, everything to do with him not being American
Cameroon was probably trying to pander to the American audiences as much as possible to maximize his profit. Remember, this is by and large still an independent movie, not Marvel movie No.3467 where the studio is guaranteed to rake in profit no matter what.
'Keep your ears open to unusual sounds, things that might sound a little uncomfortable now, but with a little listening some of those could become your favorite sounds in your musical world.' What a simple, beautiful sentiment to build your life, your entire career around
Gosh I find it's true sometimes I get recommended some weird song or artist and move on thinking eh it's not for me then the next day I would be humming it nonstop until I go back to it! it's really a matter of getting familiar with new things that is so hard for us at first
"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. You know, things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, ...." (nails scratch across a chalkboard) . . . . . . . Nope! Still uncomfortable.
So, you can learn the language.. There are websites out there dedicated to teaching you the language. There are also UA-cam videos that break down the individual sounds and teach basic words so you could actually have a conversation. Apparently there are people who meet up at conventions who's only form of common communication is the Na'vi language. They're from completely different countries and natively speak completely different languages, but they both know Na'vi, so they can talk to each other just fine. Which I think is kind of neat.
I don't really need to learn how to pronounce the sounds because I already speak languages that use these sounds and even more...but that's not anything special, the fact that they spent so much money on worldbuilding when they could just as well have paid someone on Wattpad to do the same with the same effect.
"Apparently there are people who meet up at conventions who's only form of common communication is the Na'vi language. They're from completely different countries and natively speak completely different languages, but they both know Na'vi, so they can talk to each other just fine." I bet they mostly talk about how sad they are picking Na'vi instead of Klingon or Elvish.
Hearing all this really makes me sad. This is actually one of my favorite non animated movies, cuz I prefer animation over live action. I haven't watched it in a while but it firmly holds a place in my heart. But most of the music didn't really stick out to me, and I so so SO wished they'd have put in what wanted to be done with the music.
when i was studying art, i had a painting teacher who talked to us about avatar, saying that what he found amazing in this movie was the light. According to him, the people who made the movie thought about the pandoran sun, what types of gas were in the atmoshphere and how it would change the way light acts, along with colors. So basically, this movie tried to invent new light phenomenon based on the planet of the movie, and according to him, it worked really well.
Given the track record, it's more likely that that's what they originally planned to do, but Cameron thought the lighting was "too weird" and they modeled the light with Earth's atmosphere instead.
Same ^^ I thought I got this suggestion by UA-cam because I heard a lot of James Horners music and thought in this video I got details about the Avatar-Soundtrack I didn't realised yet ^^
The soundtrack is one of the most forgettable parts of the movie to me. It legit sounds like such a hand-waved attempt at creating a vague non-western sound, like literally every western movie that centers around a non-western subject does. It wasn’t unique, ambitious or memorable, and for such a wildly successful movie it’s disappointing.
omg same here, i was ready for this to be one of those videos about how "you've totally heard this song everywhere but you just don't know it," and i started getting kind of confused when it seemed like the soundtrack was made super generic lol
so same, I gotta say its still one of my favorite movies even tho I can very much understand why people dislike the movie. this video kinda upsets me in a good way I guess but still...
After watching all of the Star Wars movies in a 2 day marathon, (in the correct order), I gotta say the Avatar soundtrack reminds me a lot of the orchestral brass that Lucas is known for in his movies. The scene in the forest with Neytiri and the rhino creatures literally sounds like it is straight out of an older Star Wars movie. Cameron and Lucas are always trying to one up each other though so maybe the brass is like a "I can do it too" to Lucas from Cameron.
i think the contrast between the “music no one has ever heard before” and the western music would’ve done a good job to highlight the difference between the two cultures in the film and helped a lot thematically??? idk???
I thought so too. That would've been really interesting to experiment with. Too bad the other Avatar movies will likely have the same pitfall. I mean, no one plans on watching them anyway.
Hahaha, yhea, that sentence was indeed offensive. Even for an european that still is as western as it gets. ^^ I allways thought james cameron did that movie for me aswell 😢 but nope ^^
@@rovidicus9574 Hell not even the coasts of the US or the North West to the South East. Two very similar Midwest states. It's almost an insult with the implications.
ugh, as a writer I think I just really appreciate the world-building behind it rather than the actual characters? I just want more. I want to see more in this world and just show me you bastards.
Honestly the potential of the sequel really excites me since there is so much potential for a deep thought provoking story about tribalism(humans vs aliens but both groups are relatable)..........except that story will probably never happen. It would just be another humans are bad aliens are good narrative. Even with the best setup imaginable laid out for them, Hollywood is probably too scared to take a risk.
Eh i actually dont think the reason they did that was aaaaalll about money but idk i feel like if all they wanted money they would put so much effort any anyway who says that they cant take inspiration from the western music too idk
I highly recommend anyone who buys into the general vibe in popular culture that this movie was mediocre and the only good part was the visual cinematic theatrics to set aside the about 3 hours to watch the full cut Extended Edition (not the netflix or disney one or whatever, those are at least as cut as the theatrical release, though I think they even cut the tentacle sex scene, which I swear I remember being in the theatrical release). If you can't find it let me know I'll see if I can help or alternatively these movie censorship articles I found with a quick google search give an quick breakdown of what was additionally in the Special Edition and Extended Edition respectively (skip down to the "V. Report" and "II. Censorship Report" sections) www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=659729 and www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=869530 (it starts with a cyberpunk dystopia and a barfight, in case you were wondering, a lot is different and it really re-frames a decent amount of the film, both politically and artistically, I think)
James Cameron is one of the only directors who commands exceptional freedom in his projects because they always make a ton of money, so normally that critique works, but specifically does not work for specifically this film.
This makes me so mad, I love the design for the creatures, plants, world and even the human vehicles in this movie, but the story was just so... bland, i dunno. To think we could've had an actually good movie if the director didn't sabotage his own creation under the ridiculous notion that people are unable to enjoy anything that isn't immediately familiar
Yeah, it really would have made it cool and unique, and i think would have helped people get invested in digging in the lore, rather than in one ear out the other
I love how they managed to spend this crazy amount of money on all these musical and world building details, but when it came to a typeface that could have been developed for the film they just went.. *opening word document* "huh.. I guess Papyrus it is!"
All jokes aside, I think what may have happened was this: James Cameron begins production and is in love. He spares no expense, calling in every kind of expert he can think of to create a thorough and complete setting with a fully developed culture. He gets lost in the sauce. Alien ecosystems, conlang, numerical system, astronomically accurate representations of the night sky. The coup de grace: an entirely alien soundtrack. The crown jewel of this completely new world. Then reality smashes back in. The honeymoon phase is over. He has to make an actual movie now, and he absolutely cannot afford it to bomb. The budget that this project accrued is unthinkable. He starts cutting chunks of content, relegating them to behind the scenes material. The story can't be too weird, this has to be as universally appealing as it can be. Creature design is also reigned in - we need these aliens to have an analogue to what most audiences will recognize. Soundtrack? If it sounds weird to Cameron, it'll sound weird to the audience. They'll be taken out of the moment! No, this needs to be sanded down and made familiar. A movie gets released. It nets unprecedented returns at the box office. Within five years, it has vanished from public discussion. What a success! What a loss...
Gem from her writeup: "Later Cameron admitted that the magnetic field generated to lift the mountains “would have to be strong enough to rip the hemoglobin out of your blood”
I know nothing about music or soundtracks but my girlfriend is a massive theatre kid and she loves this kind of stuff. When I introduced her to your channel she watched all your videos in under a week. Now we eagerly await your new content and watch it together, and it makes both of us incredibly happy. Thank you for the brilliant work you do Sideways, keep it up!
Honestly it feels like the conclusion here is pretty simple. Cameron's movies, even the good ones, are slavishly obedient to the rules of either cool or pretty. Cool and pretty, of course, as defined by Western commercial appeal. He may be an auteur in the sense of his dictatorial control, but not in the sense of creativity or artistry. He's just a stone's throw away from Michael Bay- whereas Bay is the lowbrow, explosionfest, McDonald's-level filmmaker; Cameron is a middlebrow, technonerd, Olive Garden interpretation of the exact same thing. Just look at Alien vs Aliens- while I absolutely love both, it's plain that Cameron transformed Ridley Scott's moody, philosophical, artsy vision into a mechanically precise, shut-your-brain-off techno-thriller that trades every moment of introspection for an opportunity to just ooze pre-programmed cool. The bottom line here is- any music that is authentically ethnic or alien-sounding would not be "pretty" to Western ears, so they fall back on the Hans Zimmer/Lisa Gerrard trope of just layering some generically cool and vaguely exotic-adjacent melodies and a few meaningless female vocal warbles on top of an otherwise Euro-familiar traditional Hollywood orchestral score. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone though, and I wonder if the millions of dollars and hundreds of hours were really spent on all that cultural research. Anyone who's seen a James Cameron film could have predicted that it never would have worked.
You know it's kind of ironic because Titanic had that scene in the bottom of the ship demonstrating the involvement of partying and dancing to represent the lower class culture, and then there was the string quartet that played during the film aligning with the history. And given the topics that Way of the Water touches on you'd expect Cameron to have learned something about a film score by now but here we are.
Thats... actually really tragic, I would've enjoyed listening to something like that.
A simple fix would've been to play the alien soundtracks in the navi scenes, and the traditional blockbuster soundtracks when the military is on scene. Further emphasizing the war between the two parties.
That actually would have been pretty cool and you would not only get visual cues on their differences but an audio one
The problem is, these stories are always about getting the audience to Sympathize With The Other and feel guilty about their own identity; this is however hard to accomplish when the Other is actually truly alien to one's sensibilities, including the aesthetic, and the Bad Guy is more familiar and relatable. If the villainous humans were identified with the familiar sounds, textures, and harmonies of movie heroism and the virtuous aliens identified with textures and tones not only unfamiliar but possibly unpleasant and even anxiety-inducing, this might have the wrong effect.
In fact, this is why the film completely failed to resonate with me, and in fact made me angry, particularly the scene where the entire planet Earth and human race are written off as dead and worthless by the wise Navi spirit thing. Like, this film was written by humans. Navi dialogue was written by humans. No Navi were involved in the making of this movie. So it's pure, irredeemable misanthropy, and I came to really dislike the imaginary aliens invented by humans to tell a fundamentally anti-human story, and an analogue to one which treats the part of the human race in which I have my own roots as, again, spiritually dead and worthless. Among my people, I am a mutant; I do not possess our endemic, genetic self-hatred.
@@Hesperell I took it as heroism and good spanning across cultures. I never saw this film as portraying humanity as a whole, but more on the individuals and their choices, whether to harm others or stand up for them.
Stalin'sDietAndFitness funny how someone in a UA-cam comment section can think of this great and symbolic idea but millions of dollars cant
It seems like such a basic concept right? To give either side of a conflict their own music style to give them more of their own identity? Hell, I'd add more of an industrial sound to the space marines or whatever they're called to play up the technology vs nature aspect. It would be something to make the space marines sound more villainous.
But I'm not James Cameron, so what the fuck do I know about anything?
Can we get a petition going for them to release those demo’s?!?! I’m really interested in hearing them.
That'd be immense. I loooove foreign music.
#ReleaseTheBryantHornerCut
-Jr- honestly. The though of never getting to hear them is a little heartbreaking
@@baronvonbeandip that's a pretty broad description lol
@@samyrandome425 i loooove hearing things i havent heard before
James Cameron: *wants unrecognisable music*
James Horner: *makes unrecognisable music*
James Cameron:
ö
Hur hur. Original meme.
Hua Hua, original comment making fun of original comment
Ari Ibarra You are the problem you are pointing me out to be.
@@arifall3n mum @billrich dad please stop fighting
It is possible that the original music did sound like shit 🤷♂️ I mean there are a lot of different types of music out there and each has bangers and garbage, who knows 🤷♂️
"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. Things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, some of those may become the favourite sounds in your musical world." What a great closing statement from her. There's so much beautiful music we could discover if we'd be a little bit more adventurous.
I'm now sad and mourning for a culture that doesn't exist
Latin music for me
Not to mention, all money and research in the logo using "papyrus" font.
Dude watch SNL they did a skit with a papyrus font and its fucking hilarious watch its soo good
The papyrus font is amazing and beautiful
@@1-bitbraincelle981 Ryan Gosling crushed that episode. Every. Sketch.
Fittingly, I've seen Papyrus used to evoke South American, African, Asian, Australian and Norse cultures. It's the typeface hacks use when they need a quick and free "universally ethnic" font. So it's perfect for Avatar.
@@strikerbowls791 yeah, so it is Comic Sans, but every font has something to tell, comic sans its meant to be a "comic like" font, originaly meant for children in microsoft bob.
papyrus is extremly overused, is not a bad font, not at all, but it already come to me as LAZY design, is like using "Trajan" for every single medieval film.
This just sounds like the biggest waste of somebody’s time in history, they put in SO MUCH EFFORT. and Cameron was like no.
He literally said: no ❤️
At least they got paid for all this work. Not as good as letting their artistic voices they were paid for actually be heard, but he didn't write them a hot check or anything.
@@RoninCatholic yeah cause money is everything
@@dr_lubaba Money is the most important part about doing a job for hire. If you want to pay me to grill a burger only to promptly toss it in the trash and make a different burger yourself, you've wasted your time, my time, all the money you spent on my labor, and the ingredients of the burger but since I was compensated for my time I'm only _mildly_ insulted.
Money isn't everything, but it's still a lot.
@@RoninCatholic That's the story of every unused (aka "rejected") score ever written.
WHAT!! I took ethnomusicology with Dr. Bryant at PCC like a million years ago, this is blowing my mind lol. Her class was so much fun, and she was such a nice person! She brought in a friend of hers (who's a prince and a globally accomplished drummer??) to play the dundun, and she introduced us not only to dozens of cool instruments but also to why they were such a product of the culture they came from. Super cool lady, great teacher, and I knew she was awesome but I definitely did not realize at age 18 that she was such a Big Deal. This feels so surreal lol.
PCC as in portland community college?
OMG now I wanna take a class with her
@@tarnoyanwarrior4706 from what I read online it was most likely Pasadena city college
"Something that could be understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota."
I love this statement. Something meant to be global actually being restricted to a vertical strip of 700 miles.
I'm picturing audiences all over the world scratching their heads and confusedly looking around at each other in theaters when the scene plays, while people in Nebraska and Kansas are openly weeping.
I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as James Cameron's genius wit unfolds itself on their cinema screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂
I'm sorry, that's what sprout up in my mind when I read your last sentence. You're right though! It's so idiotic that he actually just had American audiences in mind. Ugh, Hollywood..
When I heard that I audibly reacted "Tha- that's not all. Wha-?"
ok but no one cares about that lmao
so it was aimed at native americans?
@@ScythPlayzok, but literally everyone does?🤨
I actually love this channel - I'm not a music student or anything, but the the passion this guy talks with is infectious!!!
Everything is so well written and researched I wish this stuff got more recognition than it does :)
Same, and it is making me more aware of music in films and god did he blow my mind once or twice- this damn interesting and now i would love to hear the original score they came up with
I mean same too. All that research sideways does speaks to my desire to know everything
@@rudeminnesotan yeah, one could never guess what I do in college (art student) by looking at my channel subscriptions. Sure I have art channels, but also science, history, linguistic, law, and of course, music.
Absolutely the same here! I have never once given thought to the music in movies beyond "o that sound gud" but since finding this channel, I have been consistently blown away by the thought and effort that can be put into the finest details of music for it to make the maximum impact! It's amazing how he takes information that I would have once deemed as "boring" and presents it in such a well thought out and passionate argument, it's just amazing to hear. I have even been able to convince my husband to listen to a few clips and also be blown away haha.
Same
I understand at most half of what he's saying, but it's just so interesting how much though goes into a musical score and how much symbolism is hidden in there
I definitely read “iconic”, not “ironic” in the title and was thoroughly confused for a long time
Yeah, me too. First I didn't even want to watch this video, I was like "okay there were a couple nice-sounding songs there, but iconic?", but then I read it again and this was some very good content.
Iconically Ironic
Same, i was very confused
@@TheHalogen131 shit im only reading this mid video and only now realising it is ironic. fuck.
@@misalive Yeah same. I was like "Okay, but when will the iconic part come?"
"Honey, what did you think of the film?"
"It was good, but there wasn't enough of Jake weaving. The book implied there'd be more"
You could have clothing or weaving more as part of their identity, like maybe give one of the na’bi special clothes once they reach a certain age or something like that, naw just have em look like African tribes lul.
"Known for weaving" -> cut to shot of a crowd in thongs and nothing else
Don’t you know the books are always better than the movies. Remember that whole chapter on baby carrying?
Seeing this video, I’ve got two thoughts:
Sideways is not being snarky, he is genuinely pissed at the colossal amount of wasted potential in such an ironic sense.
Secondly, I hope these demos can see the light of day. They from the sound of it seem amazing.
Ikr!? It'd be spectacular ✨
It's a bit of both. He seriously thinks James Cameron did Avatar for $$$. It's clear Cameron has passion for filmmaking but go off on money making potential.
There’s a song by TheFatRat and Maisy Kay called ‘The Calling’. It uses some of the lyrics from the weaving song, and I feel like it perfectly shows how they could combine the speech with western musical concepts
I haven't watched the movie yet but i hope they brought back some of the horner's work that "seemed too alien". It would be a shame if it got lost completely
@@gravoxxavox7849I thought that song felt like avatar
Guys guys guys. “From Oklahoma to South Dakota” makes complete sense, you just need to go around the Earth the long way. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
A better term would’ve been “From Alaska to Fiji, and you can’t go over the International Date Line.”
@@lyly_lei_lei "From Greenland to Australia but you must change your angle of travel every 10 seconds and never reverting a previous change."
Really Cameron really...
@Cadee Haugsness It would just be Furniture Mart now.
From New York to New Jersey
All that world building, and they still used papyrus font for the title...
@Survivor #1776 Hey, what do you mean by this, did they re-do the logo from the first film or have you found one from the sequel? I'd love to see
@@cxdxvxr reference to the logo minimalizing meme that zoomers insist is funny I think?
@@thekneesbee Still looks like crap
@@STOCKHOLM07 how? it looks better than it did before so.
@@chaaaargh The bar was that low.
I read the title as “iconic”, not “ironic”, and was confused the whole video about why he had a negative tone
I don't feel so alone, now. A little dumb, but not alone. 😂
Same, it took me awhile to figure it out.
I read “ironic” and wondered if it’s a typo
Now I feel stupid. Why did you have to point that out?!
I read it that way and was confused before even watching the video because I can't remember anything about the music.
Cameron: But I don’t like the alien music you made!
Horner and Bryant: Then why did you ask for it???
And suddenly I'm depressed at the amount of music that no one has ever heard before and no one ever will.
Ah yes, My favourite, Listening fatigue followed by an existential crisis :)
It’s James Horner. You would have heard this music somewhere before lol. (he still was a legend)
NO. This music will see the light of day someday, if I have anything to say about it.
I really wish i could hear the music
Same here.
NO. NO YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TEXTILES BRO. Like, they hired actually weavers and textile experts to hand make ALL the textiles as life-sized references for the 3D modelers and texture artists. Like, they could have easily just had people wearing this stuff and carrying it around and sleeping in it IRL... but they did it JUST TO GET THE TEXTURE RIGHT. That's insane.
In reality, they just hired Sigourney Weaver and called it a day.
rus0004 neat pun ftw
@@rus0004 I agree with Kalman... I have been punned! So rood. Lol
"This doesn't sound right to me."
"You hired me to make music that nobody has ever heard before, what did you expect?"
"I had no idea what to expect, I'd never heard this music before."
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah. sometimes when you experiment, the experiment doesn’t go over well and you have to try something else, for all you know the music while creative, could’ve been garbage because of how basically takes from multiple unrelated cultures whose musical traditions might conflict. People are being so ungenerous for no reason, this sort of thing happens all the time in cinema, it’s not a big deal
@@cantthinkofaname5046 Literally the only reasonable take on this whole page. It was clearly an experiment that JC was willing to try, and scrap if it wasn't good enough. Pretty standard practice for any experiment.
The thing is, people aren't blank slates, objectively judging whether a piecie of music is good or not. Whether we want to or not, we always judge what we hear in the light of what we know and what we are used to. Therefore, it is to be expected that the result of this experiment would not sound good to a western ear, it's a much, much more likely outcome than the opposite. So why waste all the time and money on the ordeal, if what he wanted was something that sounded good to westerners?
@@absta1995 We don't even know what it sounded like. How can you discredit something we don't even know how it sounds? Secondly this is a matter of taste and your comment kinda shows you probably live between Oklahoma to South Dakota.
To me the current sound track sounds so bland I would much rather have a failed experiment.
the fact that they actually called it unobtainium will never not be funny to me
Only for English speaking people
what so funny about it
Might not be the most original name but it’s not like he invented it. The term has existed in sci-fi for a while, there’s even a Wikipedia page for it.
@@SailorDoggo Dude, everyone knows english. It is ridiculous for us as well.
@@Itisoverthere-rw You are delusional
"To be understood by all... from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
This reminds me of that joke from Ryan Higa: "Alright guys, I've narrowed it down... Countries all over the United States..."
Somebody once asked me if we needed a Mapa Mundi of the United States for class... Guess where he was from...
Not even that - Oklahoma to South Dakota is literally *four states* (those two, Nebraska, and Kansas).
Like at least go Alaska to Florida.
I love that it's not even North Dakota
I'm not from US, could someone explain me the joke?
@@mune3351 oklahoma and south dakota are both states in the US, but the implication of “to be understood by all” implies it would have been across multiple continents and cultures.. its hilarious because the two examples that are framed to sound so far away from each other (again, on a worldwide scale) are in the same *country,* excluding the entirety of the rest of the world and contradicting his attempt at a universal analogy.
Ed: unless he really only wanted the soundtrack to appeal to american (or otherwise generally western) audiences, in which case its even funnier that he surmounts “all” to just “people in the west.”
Forget the snyder cut I want the Avatar music cut
LITERALLY! I want a cut fully scored by Bryant and Horner so bad, oh my god
+ !
We can annoy them enough to do it like the Snyder cut
#ReleaseTheHornerCut
Doesn't even have to be the full movie. Just a concept album would be nice.
The lady who helped with the plant science actually spoke at my high school. She’s pretty neat and gave a lot of interesting tidbits about both the production and she helped design and describe the fictional fauna.
*flora. Fauna are animals. I doubt the plant science lady gave an opinion on the animals - unless it was what sort would eat a plant with which specific defenses.
I'm so glad you put the part where Eywa sends wildlife charging into battle to help.
The score in that scene absolutely yanked me out of the moment. It was so emotional and then suddenly it felt so... Goofy?
It was so out of place and seeing this now, it makes sense why
Probably one of my least favourite moments because the music just doesn't match for that instant, shame cause of the direct next scene with neytiris passionate shouting is acted so well
@@birdienator7377 Yes!! The score could have elevated that scene and made it even MORE perfect, but instead it was a cartoonish moment. So unfortunate.
i had that too, i was so 'in the moment' till i heard that score and was just dissappointed
Wow I disagree, I've seen this movie dozens of times and never noticed this
Wow the music elevated the triumphant moment of The Pandorians!
"From Oklahoma to South Dakota" being used to describe a breadth of all people is unbelievably funny.
Sooo... Nebraska and (reaches deep into memory of flyover states) Kansas?
lol it's like, a chunk of the plains
@@blackburn1111 Cultures spanning across such vast areas as... a portion on the USA.
@@TheSpacecraftX i know right? So dumb. I seriously want to hear those demos they made. It sounds so awesome.
To me it's just some random place in USA to another random place in USA.
Can I just LOL at the statement that everyone should relate to the music "from Oklahoma to South Dakota"? Why not just make them space cowboys singing country if that is how narrow the recipients are supposed to be. Why take all these nations that have nothing to do with English, the west and the US, to make a song for the US?
Because the US is ClEaRlY all that exists!!
Na'vis be jodeling
There are two states in between Oklahoma and south Dakota! And all four of those states are in the great plains!
@@billdebillbill He didn't even go from the top (North Dakota) of US to the bottom (Texas).
I understand my country's politics a lot better now
As a cast member in Pandora, I've had to listen to this god forsaken soundtrack for over 2000 hours. I was afraid to watch this for fear of it triggering my flight or fight response. I can tell you that we rarely meet a fan that even knows the names of the main characters or the difference between a Navi, Avatar, and Banshee. It's weird because they make us learn the lore and then never get to use it unlike when I worked at Galaxys Edge. Also ever since they got rid of the Swotwiyeh drum circle it has never been the same.we have a running joke that the next movie will finally be released when the last person who helped open Pandora has retired or transferred away.
My dude, my friend, i respect youm
It's a shame to know what the music in this film could have been. I seriously commend you for your work, I know nothing about music and such especially for films but it sounds like it was quite a rough time.
That’s rough buddy
I can name avatar characters.
Jake, nitery...
...
I always say "The avatars that connected with the big tree"
And my dad always corrects me "The Navis that connected to the Soul Tree" 😅🤣
I am convinced, utterly convinced if they had let the soundtrack be the alien experimentation it could’ve been, this movie would’ve been powerful for a far better reason
"They could literally be singing about what they had for lunch and it wouldn't make a difference"
well... actually, considering they wanted songs based on their every day life (weaving song, hunting song) a song about lunch would actually be more of what they wanted, instead of, you know, a song called 'circle-branch-six'
It was just a random example. If he said they could have been saying random sounds it's the same thing, so it's independent of following the daily life idea
☝️🤓
When this came out, I thought it was just a big blockbuster that capitalized on cutting edge special effects and pretty much nothing else. After learning about everything else that they were trying to do with the movie, I'm beyond disappointed with how much potential they wasted.
They could have pushed the boundaries of literally EVERYTHING. This literally could have been the new LOTR with added groundbreaking non-western cross cultural music being introduced to the Western world.
But nope. We just got fancy blue Pocahontas instead.
I guess there's a reason why people consider this movie "the most successful movie that nobody remembers." I only even remember the name Nav'i because it reminds me of Legend of Zelda...
I only remember it because its name is the same as Avatar the Last air bender and because there is one scene that reminds me of dinotopia
A movie with a huge bible of worldbuilding but a weak story is randomly put together to make money and give something easy for audiences without regards for meaning or consistency... hasn't something like that happened recently... (eyes glaze over new star wars)... Nah, Avatar's scripts was far less messy.
@@maximeteppe7627 only new star wars...? All of Star Wars suffers from this, I love the movies, all of them (well... Most) but they're all just tropes over tropes over tropes and the empty space filled by space battles.
The comics and the series (Clone Wars specifically) did a MUCH better job of worldbuilding
@@majestichorseman1321 when the original movies were made, where was no expansive bible to draw from.
The prequels are weird but they do complexify things thematically and lore wise. They failure of execution lies more in the dialogue and directing than in the overall story.
The sequels though, they are a mess rushed to theater to make back the 5 billions investment as quick as possible, with one ambitious but chaotic entry in the middle.
@@maximeteppe7627 yeah, on-paper the prequel trilogy is just as good as (if not better than) the originals if you're judging them based on overall plot, theming, lore... they have a profound message that they do actually try to say, they just fumble the delivery. Well, more like... dropped it off a cliff, but you get the idea.
People: Do exactly as Cameron says, and exactly what he wanted
Cameron: Ew who decided this it sounds so *aLieN*
The mothershoking point.
Lmao
Christ man
Oof!
@@sinedddmk8996 Amen
It is sad to find out about this because all of the different or 'alien' sounds and songs where actually my favourite parts of the movie, they sounded very intimate and spiritual and made me really emotional.
"There's literally nothing that sounds more european than brass" ... Well, never thought about that, but yeah hahahaha
Also strong European conquests/imperialism connotations. Our armies used bugles/brass, fifes, and drums. For centuries those marching bands, etc, were probably feared by local/indigenous populations! (just a guess, but I'd be running in the opposite direction if in their place!)
I can't remember his name but that's why the guy who did the music for the Battlestar Galactica reboot specifically avoided using the most commonly used orchestral sections, brass and strings, to make the world feel more alien.
I mean jazz is a thing. Can’t tell me a jazz bone solo sounds too traditionally European lol. I agree, just joking around
I think brass just became very popular for general "royal" connotations even when places are non-European. Take for instance Black Panther, you hear a lot of brass in the score for the shots of Wakanda. Would've been nice to introduce more native sounds but they weren't felt strongly enough.
ccricers but that connotation is because of Western influence
I'm a biologist, and I tell you, I almost weeped in the theater. I mean, I was in bio/eco heaven. Paraphrasing Weaver, I just wanted to take some samples. I apreciated the hell out of how "extra" this movie went.
That said, I'd really, really, REALLY love to watch this movie with a completely remade soundtrack, this time ignoring Cameron and just going with what Horner and Dr. Brian come up.
I agree!!! I find the world of this movie so fascinating and cool - there's so much time and effort put into it
I'm in total agreement with you about the biological aspect of the film. I would kill to hear it with the original soundtrack, and a narrative that doesn't turn into a painful white savior story halfway through. Basically, we need a sequel that has nothing to with war, humanity, or conflict, and dives more into the lore that they developed and literally never showed us.
I'm certainly curious. I don't know if I'd like it better, but sheesh, you put it n that much effort and don't use it at ALL! That's just tragic.
@@feigekatarina5745 Yup, I agree. Also, what do the Navi do everyday?
@@RosyMiche I'm hoping that they'll try to correct their mistakes in the next film, seeing as they have proof now that it's a profitable franchise with their generic first film, and they can try to be more creative and go back to the original soundtrack and ideas for future films.
This brings to mind an old Southern expression: "Don't buy a watchdog, then do yer own barkIn'"!
I have never heard that expression before but I love it.
As a Texan I have never heard that, but I’m sure as hell gonna use it
This video perfectly explains why Avatar paradoxically feels both “well-made” & “poorly-made” at the same time! - The ppl in charge of the worldbuilding & production put a lot of care into their work. The man in charge of everything ignored their efforts.
Its not that he ignored the work. Not everything you try is working out
@@vanessag368Yeah, not every single piece of world building is going to fit into the movie. It's remarkable how much Cameron managed to fit into the movie while still telling a cohesive story and keeping the runtime to a mere 3 hours.
@@marshallscotthey could’ve just made a show at that point with all this world building involved
James cameron wanted to fully show the avatar universe that he made up. for that he needs money, a lot of it. So for him to actually make all the stuff he wants, he needs to be very successful. So while he will include as much of the lore as possible, he will not try and use things that will probably reduce the audience. A completely new style of music would do that, as would completely alien life. Idk about you but I wanna listen to nice music while watching a movie, not some uber realistic stuff that sounds weird, just like I want to be able to look at the animals and go "that's a neat looking horse" instead of "what the fuck is that eldritch abomination" hence I would not watch movies that are centered around such things and James cameron loses profit, therefore less avatar made, therefore james cameron sad.
It's genuinely tragic how much imagination was discarded in order to appeal to the common denominator
James Cameron: I want it to sound non-western,something never heard before
**it sounds literally alien,something nobody heard before**
James Cameron: **surprised Pikachu.jpg**
Pbbt
No! Make it make Christian again!!
@@EllieKimberley don't joke about that
Mm&Peter's Lifestyle it’s funny
@@lurkenvoncurken518 I'm not forcing you dude i just want to spread Christ to people
This... really is depressing. Horner put a lot of effort into a soundtrack we will never hear and now (RIP, James) never will hear anything like. I hope Cameron lives up to his promise that the sequels will be even bolder on ALL fronts and give us actual alien music.
As much as I'd wish for the same, I highly doubt they would use actual alien music. Sequel soundtracks are usually pretty much copy and pasted from the previous film. I can't imagine them willing to go out of their way to create a very different sounding sequel.
@@darKILLusionnn There's also the fact that now Disney owns it. Disney is not much for risk taking, creating such bland material lately. They would never allow it.
@@darKILLusionnn the music will be re-thought just because there will be a new composer
I really liked this score. But now all I want to hear is the original sounds and songs for the movie. It could’ve been a great way to push the boundaries of blockbuster film scores
yeah. Instead we got those frickin drum sh*t over and over and over again.
😭 Mostly for trailers though.
Yes, me too!
I would love if we got everyone who worked on the music, to release an album of everything that was scrapped. Sadly, I think everything an artist creates under direction of a filmmaker, is copyrighted to that filmmaker. Like how all the concept art for Disney animation has a 'Property of Disney' watermark instead of the artist's signature.
It probably just didn't work.
Might I make a recommendation? There is a soundtrack from another movie that (to me) sounds more na'vi than the actual movie. it's the soundtrack from "Time Machine" made in 2002. I listen to it all the time. Check it out.
The irony about the tree song is that the moment you played the first note i remembered it all. It had such beautiful feeling and a uniqueness that i loved. And now i find out THERE WAS MORE THAT WE DIDNT GET!!!!? If the whole movie was like that I'd probably like it more! I might even love it. But absolutely I'd respect it!!!!
Also I'm from the US and i dont know the difference between Oklahoma and South Dakota
:( He didnt even make a version of it to hear for people .
All that work and the title card is still just “avatar” in the papyrus font
Ikr. I thought the same thing
PAPYRUS!!!
@@johnmuselmann7886 Shakira merch! Offbrand teas!
also known as edgey hipster font
maybe the font was brand new when they used it lmfao
Why the hell did they not create some generic Hollywood score for the humans (brass and whatnot), and actually use the unusual alien-like score for the Navi? Wtf?? Too much of a statement for a blockbuster?
As much as I love this idea, I think Cameron might have worried that if he had used generic Hollywood action movie music for the humans, and unfamiliar aliens scores for the Navi, the Western audience would have been more incline to side with the 'evil corporation' humans instead, since their soundtrack along with other things made them much more familiar and recognisable.... While the Navi's soundtrack might have made them too 'alien' for the audiences's comfort, hence making them less relatable. Which was not the emotional reaction he wanted for the viewers.
@@chankljp Making a movie where the audience isnt forced to pick sides may have made a better movie in my opinion.
@@MrJonojono34 I totally agree but the sad reality is that the majority wont feel the same....
Remember when one of the most popular sci fi films, 2001: a space odyssey, had a completely "alien" soundtrack of swarming violins and vocals? How unadventurous it's all become.
Well, come on, the generically unspecific 'ethnic' culture has to be easily digestible and consumable for western markets. They couldn't have anything to innovative, unfamiliar or challenging.
There's a whole lot of wasted potential throughout the whole film, and the lack of consistency in the story is just disheartening. Done right it could have been a game changer with amazing music but it was squandered. I'd love to hear those unused demos too
I had the computer game and it came with a shortened digital encyclopaedia which unlocks more pages as you progress in the game. It also focussed on the idea of the songs as tools or puzzle pieces to activate the planet's self defence- a network to the spiritual world like they showed in the body-switch ritual at the end. Sadly it also had two fatal flaws: you never heard the music, just got a silent montage of them swaying; and it suffered from the White Saviour trope (wherein the human main character was the 'chosen one,' not someone who actually lives on the planet).
It's a piece of shit. Plain and simple. And it's not even as amazing CGI as everyone said and says it is.
Bad story, above average CGI but not amazing, overhyped.
I agree its such a shame. Plus I honestly found the score to be extremely dull as well. Just the usual generic world music mixed with "DUN DUN DUUUUNNNN" brass sounds for the bad guys.
@@spinlok3943 yeah...basically background noise.. very simple minimal sounds that you barely even notice. Most movies use it nowadays like every generic action movie lol.
R Nickerson “Above average CGI” ya ok buddy.
I would love to hear a follow-up now that Avatar 2 is out. And it's interested to watch this after Hans Zimmer very deliberately attempted to make an alien soundtrack with "non-Earth" instruments for Dune. The music is so much of what makes that world feel so off-worldly. It's lamentable that Avatar didn't have that effect because it didn't follow through with that intention.
when you started talking about the music I was like: damn that's cool I really need to watch the movie again and pay attention to the music..... well that went downhill so fast
such a shame :/
I was really hyped too, the lore, the effort, lol people don understand = no money :/
It still pretty awesome. Especially the last few minutes of "Gathering of All the Navi clans for Battle". I don't care what anyone says. That melody is just.....god damn I'm gonna go listen to it again.
I find the comment about the western "ethnic" music being what they *think* ethnic music funny in a sad way, because that statement isn't just for music, it's such a wide range of art from music to architecture to clothing.
Hell, I had written an essay back in my college English class that touched on "chinoiserie" (trying to remember how it's spelled off the top of my head.) It was about Chinese porcelain, and how the preferred style for the Chinese at the time was to have things be a simple, pure, delicate white with maybe some blue, but potters created and sold over-decorated, gaudy stuff that was totally unrecognizable and "alien" to them to European traders since that fit the European perception as what actual Chinese-style pottery looked like.
I mean even the Chinese hated their style and purged many things to follow Western thought. Couldn't admit they made a mistake to save face so they still got it in them, but with Chinese characteristics as they try to build themselves back up culturally. It's looking like the West is about to run into the same thing. As it was then as it is now, the ones supporting a future they say they do not want are the ones claiming to be fighting against it while only fighting themselves.
@@jayeisenhardt1337 Huh
@@jayeisenhardt1337 It was to "move forward", not follow western thought.
@@mjpeng6516 yes, that
@@jayeisenhardt1337 if your talking about the CA, it was to purge western ideology
As a linguistics major, the idea of having to learn ejectives made my heart stop. Those are _so_ difficult to do if you weren't raised natively with them.
I didn't know that word so I looked 'em up and -- HECK those are strange and difficult -- to my ear of course, perfectly normal to others! Thanks for the new knowledge, linguistics is badass
They’re not that hard. Epiglottals are much more difficult.
@@braydencoversbeatles4029 you're 100% right
My language has those so I never appreciated the struggle until a friend tried to learn my language and that way also ejectives. He’s come a long way but there’s still room to improve
do not go into kartvelian studies! you will die!
The thing that I find utterly weird about all the worldbuilding for Avatar is they paid for it, but never really seem to have pushed it as any part of the movie promo? Focusing instead on the story (which barely existed outside of cut+paste from other films) and the SFX (which were cool, but don't engage people over time). But then, I guess creating all that worldlore & then just deviating from it whenever he felt like doing lazy storytelling would make things difficult...? 😒
When you think about how hard the LOTR team leaned into the created cultural aspects of their films, and got their audience so completely engaged.... One can only hope that with the new movies finally releasing, Cameron will allow his collaborators to get more of the limelight?? 🙄
And thank you for this, it finally explains a lot of things, inc. why that Tree of Souls song sounded so weird in the midst of the rest of the soundtrack!
"understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
Oh my god that's the funniest thing I've heard all month
Mamenber from america to america wow what an astronomical distance
I'm assuming their pretty close together in the US
@@RailwayPenguin And as i searched it, there is a city between these two states, which is mentioned in the movie (I did not see the video yet).
@@RailwayPenguin I mean, not incredibly close together. Oklahoma is a state that's central in the country and near (not at) the southern boarder where South Dakota a state that's central in the country that's near (not at) the northern boarder, so it's a really really weird analogy to draw.
@@sjhsoccer Actually, I am from South Dakota, and have visited Oklahoma, the culture's are actually quite similar. I have no relatives from or around Oklahoma, yet I find I have more in common with people I've met from there that I do with many people in North dakota or Montana.
You may have heard of that dialect test where it guesses where you are from based on the words you use, and it actually guessed western oklahoma for me. (Yes it's just an anecdote, but I think it is still somewhat informative)
me: *panicking that I might have found a Sideways video without a mention of motifs*
19:23 *happens*
me: relaxes
Come on, come on, TALK ABOUT THE DIES IRAE ALREADY
@@TheOobo SAY THE LINE, BART! 18:41
I WANNA HEAR THOSE DEMOS SO BAD!
How would we go about getting this done???
@@javierivanreyes8608 probably have sideways start a gofundme or petition to either retrieve that score, or pay to have that soundtrack done that way again, or start collecting these interesting sounds and finding a composer to give this a shot.
Same!
@@karmapolice247 These are all great ideas, it is a corporation after all though, so they'd need the incentive of people wanting it and the ability to make a profit to actually begin considering it.
@@karmapolice247 Maybe they will use them in the sequels some day...
The way directors blame the audience for these sorts of simplifications is really irritating.
How do they know we wouldn't like or understand it if we never get a chance to see it in the first place?
We do it through our money vote, it's just that both Avatars have shown to be extremely profitable so they take it to make more stuff like that. If you want to hear more unique soundtracks, I guess we have to make the Dune sequel a blockbuster success.
@@thepeanuts55But the primary reason the film did well was the CGI. The story is blatantly unoriginal, the acting is okay at best, never really challenging the actors, but that didn't matter.
The music could've been alien and it wouldn't have made a difference in the profits.
It’s kinda wild but in a sense that’s their job. Good directors get people who are really good with at their craft and inspire them to make art. Then the director comes in and formats,tweaks, etc to what they made into coherent cohesive marketable content. and that’s the kicker- the designers don’t talk with investors…the directors do. So if you’re trying to convince someone with money that an audience will like it for the purpose to give money in advance? You are going to do your best to know what’s “marketable”. Now is this a good way to make art? Not really. But that’s the system productions are made from.
@@AlX-Ander Bullshit. Plenty of movies have great CGI and don't make a fraction of Avatar. For example- Dune and Bladerunner 2049. Great CGI, middling box office profits. Avatar speaks to people on a deep level even if it doesn't for you.
Just like when the show runners from The Witcher blamed their incompetent writing to the audience stupidity.
if not for this video, I wouldn't have even known they were TRYING to make the movie sound non-western. It sounds like every marvel movie soundtrack
This explains it perfectly. The first time I watched this movie I had just moving into a high school band. I play French Horn, and a more-naïve me would get all excited when I heard a horn solo because I had apparently never watched a blockbuster before. It took me such a long time to realize "Hey, there's a little more than just contextual details in the sound design! Woah!"
It doesn’t, silly 😂
It sounds nothing like a Marvel soundtrack. You're musically stunted.
Ever watched the video essay called "The Marvel Symphonic Universe: Why all Marvel music sounds the same"? Go check it out. MCU music is incredibly forgettable with few memorable motifs. There hasn't been a good motif since the first Iron Man. That is on top of the horribly muddy, washed out colours in MCU movies under Disney.
I think you mean it the other way round since this was first.
"From Oklahoma to South Dakota"
James Cameron: Ah yes multiculture
He might as well have said from North Carolina to South Carolina.
I don't want to sound racist here or anything, and I ABSOLUTELY love multiculture... I want to make that clear! ... but just imagine if there were other cultures outside Oklahoma and South Dakota... It cannot happen of course, but... just imagine! It is weird, I know, but just give it a try!... Let our imagination fly free!!! Wow!!!
I’m guessing he meant the long way around but judging by everything else I doubt it
Oklahoma's Tiger King is truly exotic and otherwordly.
@Oliver Melo Most of America's population is in the coastal states. Choosing midwestern states is almost amish demographics.
Music team: *Makes music that sounds nothing like what people have heard before, sounding so alien that it was perfect for the story"
Director:*Doesn't want it cause it sounds like something he hasn't heard before, sounding so alien that it was too weird to him*
Music team: "Isn't this what you wanted?"
Director: "Yes, but technically no"
Whilst it would have been more interesting, the cold harsh truth is that it probably would have alienated large parts of the market as well :/. At the end of the day Avatar was a commercial product, and in that regard it succeeded very well. It's just that it never became much more than that.
More like "yes but I don't liiiiiiiiikeeeee iiiiiiittt"
It's like asking your girlfriend if she wants food she says "no I'm not hungry at all" and then eats half your food and all your fries "SorRy I gOt HuNGrYyyYyYYyy"
Now I want to hear Hans Zimmers work with the ethnomusicologists. He's demonstrated with the DUNE soundtrack he's very capable of making something entirely alien work
No he hasn't. It doesn't sound alien. It sounds like a mash of loud bass sounds with a cliched wailing woman and a duduk thrown in the mix.
@@FranticAnimations well at least it's not western
@@alexbustamante6532 Also, "at least it's not western". Dune is absolutely western sounding, chucking in a few non-western instruments and throwing in drones doesn't mean it's not a modern western score that we've heard before.
@@FranticAnimations well what's your definition of something being non-western then? Non-diationical music? Microtonal? The use of pentatonic scales? Complex polyrhythms? Mongolian singing is often used in modern western movies so does that make it now part of the western cultural imaginary? No. I get that soundscapes and synthetic textures are inherently part of the modern media musical vocabulary but Zimmer's combination of synthesis with non-orchestral instruments is definitely"exotic". This isn't an original approach to scoring of course, however, his end result is completely different to anything that I've heard before. I don't know how much you know about synthesis but creating deep and compelling sound textures is such a complicated process. Saying they're just simple synthetic drones is a gross oversimplification.
@@FranticAnimations I'd like you to tell me a movie with a comparable score. I've thought about other major composers that I love but which haven't done anything quite like Dune. Gudnadottir, for instance, killed it with "Joker", but given that she's a cellist, her cello was the prominent feature above the synthetic textures. Goransson's "Tenet" is a demonstration of the insane possibilities of synthesis. I love how he keeps everything within the same aesthetic too, but he has weak lyrical themes. Max Richter is a contemporary composer that constantly combines synthesis with stringed instruments and Johansson's "Arrival" does an incredible job at combining choirs and strings with synthetic atmospheres. As much as I love all of them, notice how none went beyond the synthetic atmosphere plus traditional string orchestra combination. Zimmer went full synth/folklore. If you couldn't find this combination appealing it's fine, but I assure you then that Horner's original music would've seem horrendous to you. Zimmer used some augmented scales that are literally considered to be exotic, but Horner seemed to be heading into full microtonal territory which is further still.
I want a "NO-Director's cut" from all the preproduction efforts, Music, and language creation.
If you said that to Cameron's face it would the severest burn he's ever recieved
Cue a social media campaign like the Justice League Snyder Cut one
@@OfficialROZWBRAZEL I wonder if it would burn more or less than the fact that his ex-wife won the oscar for best movie that year 😎
@@Tchika less considering avatar made considerably more money in the box office lol
That would be the dream.
Horner should release his original soundtrack by himself on Spotify
K Masters San K I’m sorry to tell you that James Horner passed away in 2015
@@jordank7330 RIP
K Masters San K 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
He passed away around the time John Nash passed away. John Nash was tge subject of a beautiful mind. One of my favourites of Horner's scores
@@jordank7330 damn
"... understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
I dont think ive ever heard a sentence thats more unintentionally funny than that.
northern_lights yes, he is all Americans.
Mr Worldwide, James Cameron
he did not pick the northernmost OR southernmost state.. and also they are not extremely different places, most things can probably be understood oklahoma to south dakota. What was he trying to say with that?
He tried to say "from top to bottom," I think. But he forgot that America is way wider than it is tall, so he basically said, "make a narrow section of our audience appreciate it, and the rest are probably similar enough anyway I guess so I won't even mention them." And he got what he paid for.
God, imagine if the entire movie had instead been scored in this blend-of-cultures style instead of the Hollywood blockbuster style - or if they'd switched between one and the other depending on whose POV the camera was following or some other thing where it supported the narrative. People would have talked about it for decades as a feat of science and art.
What a waste of work.
I mean, you are still here... talking about it
@@JT-cx2ev as a fucking dissapointment
@@JT-cx2ev not as a feat of science and art, though.
Eh…the soundtrack they ended up using is absolutely gorgeous, one of Horner’s best. It does sound quite unique too, but familiar enough to be relatable. I don’t think a difficult-to-digest soundtrack would have been appropriate for a Hollywood blockbuster
@@arachosia
Of course not. You can't conciliate profit with revolutionary media. Even when you put something just mildly progressive, you already get a bunch of reactionaries whining and calling for boycotts.
This is the kind of thing that happens all over the place. Any time you hire an expert consultant, they tell you the right way to do it, the director/producer/whatever says "okay, but that's not what the idiots did in the thing we're copying" so then they copy from the idiots instead of listening to the experts and the cycle continues.
Even deeper than that, for example, it's weird we think we can just 'pick out' sounds (or objects/art/rituals/language) from cultures that sound cool, discordant or sad etc and disconnect them from everything else it's connected to in the culture (the body movement, the interactions it makes, the conversations around it, the learning, real behaviour). These things (namely culture) are so complex and evolve over time, it's weird how we still think we can distill things so easily and be sure it's accurate or think it'll fit together like a puzzle.
Didn't know Cameron took inspiration from the late stage Soviet Unico
Executive producers are famous for doing this kind of stuff where the director instead says “this will be good” and the Executive Producer says “This will not sell, cut it”
@@freyjathehealer5559 "but the chart says"
“I want the music to be really out there and different.”
...
“No, this is way too out there and different.”
13:30 honestly heartbreaking. I would totally pay to listen to everything originally made
Same
ua-cam.com/video/lSYKlheo0LM/v-deo.html
Here fam. That's suposedly it
@@elfodelputoinfierno Thought this was a shameless plug lol. Thanks mate! Apparently this isn't the very original OST tho, it's still a heavily westernized one and yet they still decided to dumb it down. What a shame
Coming back to this after the Way of Water and Jake Sully (James Cameron) has almost completely americanised the Na'Vi. Especially his kids
COME ON BRO. SURE CUZ
@@SuperSucc69 just heard we are getting another avatar movie, can’t wait to hear bro 8292923 times
@@uquko6292 Right. Such a waste of potential.
@@uquko6292 oh we're getting more than just a... second sequel. i'm pretty sure cameron wants this franchise to have maybe 4 or 5 movies to it (i wanna say 5 but i could be wrong). we've got the first and second... get ready for more bros in an alien's vocabulary for years to come!
Yeah ! He spent the entire first movie learning to integrate into a culture that wasn't his own, focusing on listening to each other and harmony with nature and all that, only to turn around and become AMERICAN MILITARY DAD n°1548, and impose strict patriarchy over his family
I didnt even realize the N'avi had four fingers and the Avatars have five
Jay Pocaigue Same, I feel blind
I noticed the difference, but only now do I question how that feels for one of the avatars. They have a fifth finger, so where does that energy reading go? Is it like a phantom limb or what?
The Na'vi also don't have eyebrows and their irises fill out the whole eye. Avatars are more human in that regard too.
It's basically like next level VR, since humans have 5 fingers, why not give the Avatars the same. After all, what would you do when you suddenly have a finger less!
@@maddimagpie What?? Both the avatars and their human users have 5 fingers. Why would there be a phantom limb involved? The "energy reading" of the avatar's fifth finger goes to the human's fifth finger.
Hearing about the mess that was Avatar's production breaks my heart. I know a lot of people don't like the film and the plot is less than original but there was so much potential. I think the saddest thing about it all is that the most interesting parts of Avatar are everything that was left out of the film; unique soundtrack and world-building. I'm still hopeful the sequels will do something interesting but knowing how difficult James Cameron is to work with I don't know...
why dont people like avatar?
@@canadianbutt275 Because it's an unoriginal white savior story
When i watched it when i was 10 i had this odd feeling that the movie barely scratched it's world, like to be specific one of the animals that is also like a horse, only appears ones in the movie but its used as a vehicle in the wii game, it doesn't do world building right or enough in some way, it doesn't really have that time fall bear packages from death stranding, you know?, little details that sell it as a world more than a vr demo experience that looks amazing, the movie just rushes over the world when our MC is literally an outsider, a new comer to this world that knows nothing or next to non about it, the classic rpg mc, that is built so the user learns about the world alongside him, but the movie knida rushes over this process leaving you with the feeling of wanting to see more and get the protagonist to ask more about the world ffs.
Canadianbutt 275 theyre dumb
Was the plot more unique in its time ?
James Horner was like "This whole operation was your idea"
It is really depressing that he will never get the chance (to have a possibility) to fix the score for the sequels.
James Horner was truly amazing. R.I.P.
That is tragic. And to think that some other composer has to work with the existing material, and probably can't deviate too much from it, for the same reason that the original score wasn't allowed to be too non-western.
I didn't know he died, looked it up now. Tragic 😞
Nothing short of tragic
What?!?! James Horner died? Oh no...
After my first two weeks taking a course on film sound in college, I find topics like these fascinating. And the idea of creating a whole new type if music for a new culture sounds just too cool to have been ruined like this. Imagine how all the talented people who worked on scoring and world building felt
are we not gonna talk about how the subtitles in the movie are written in papyrus????
Yami Dokusei that fact alone instantly took my respect for the world building down by a degree
It was on the movie posters
LMFAOOOO
@@moethauk3037 it's kinda like comic sans, everybody just hates it lol
"Papyrus...Like a small child..."
*“This is not what nonwestern music sounds like. This is what western audiences think nonwestern music sounds like”*
That part
Abigail Stein I make African music and I can assure you that the world does not know what it sounds like. They always make it easier for people by gentrification
@@MODIRWA I'm an Indian classical singer, and whenever I hear Indian music in Hollywood or even western UA-cam channels they always use some stereotypical music which sounds nothing like our music but still western people think that's how indian classical music is, and hence nobody bothers to corrects them
@@indragarg2857 I like Raga Piloo😊
Almost like the soundtrack is just as casually racist as the entire movie.
You touched on it a little bit but what I also found funny that ties back into your major point is that the lead creature designer for the movie, Wayne Barlowe (who is renowned for making truly alien creatures such as in his amazing book: "Expedition") was told, by James Cameron that all of his alien designs were too alien and needed to be toned down with Earth animal features so western audiences can be comfortable with them (the horse aliens for one of many examples, originally just had a hole for a mouth where the tongue was actually like a mosquito's proboscis, no nostrils so just those vents on their necks that you noticed, and no eyes with just a hollow space going through their heads). So not only did James want (but not really want) alien music, he also wanted a world filled to the brim with alien organisms that weren't really all that alien.
Thanks for sharing
Wow thanks for not letting us see the alien world that you created James 👍
the earthlike theme is purposely created to give a greater emotional impact. People wouldn't be connected with the character nor emotionally impacted if they saw a unrecognizable being and that's clearly not the point of the story that James is trying to tell, which is basic storytelling. If everything in a sci fi movie was for the sake of sci fi then it would rather be a fictional documentary.
@@diogovogel5657 The Pandora fauna didn't make me empathise more with it, but less because I could see they were just earth animals with some alien stuff painted over. Just like all those rubber-forehead humanoids Star Trek is filled with and who I consider more like people with weird birth defects than aliens as a result.
And if he didn't want to make a movie with alien aliens then...maybe just don't put the setting in such an environment?
love that.. thanks James.. really appreciate it
My favorite part of Avatar 2 is how they threw away the entire alien language they invented for the first film to have everyone speak English the whole time
That’s so funny because I was talking with my dad and I pointed out how the Metkayina clan kept picking on the family for being “hybrids” yet they’re literally speaking English lol
Edit: yes I’m aware they’re technically speaking na’vi, but regardless it still comes off weird lol so yeah! *no one come for me*
they dont speak english, it just shows it from sully's pov of him understanding them
@@cityinsect It still feels cheap. While from a production side of things, you must treat the audience like they are stupid and having subtitles the entire time isn't ideal, it's also not ideal to throw away storybuilding.
@@mynameisambertoo7379 there's still plenty of the language spoken throughout the movie, and it wouldn't be wise to have the entire movie covered with subtitles
@@mynameisambertoo7379 They didn't throw away anything. There's a small scene showing that Jake understands the language so well that it's basically second nature. Plus, it would be stupid to make a movie entirely in a fake language. In the Lord of the Rings, none of the races spoke english, including humans, so Tolkien basically "translated" it for us.
Fascinating! Reminded me that my Jazz History professor said people don't know what they like so much as they like what they know.
“[...] understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota”... Yes, all the countries in between!
one of the things i find odd about avatar is how the US (or the UK for that matter...) can see the film & *not* manage to be incredibly called out by it, yet somehow it almost completely managed to avoid being interpreted as an epic 'fuck you' to colonialism... which is like, the *entire* story.
how?!
Not even NORTH Dakota smh
There are literally two states between those, Kansas and Nebraska, and all four are relatively similar in culture
That is the most american quote ive ever heard
@@sjs9698 ...because you were too stupid to know how?
Good avatar: let's build a rich world with cool cultures by mixing asian ones. Ends up being unique even if you can recognize the inspirations.
Blue avatar: let's make a unique unrecognizable culture. Ends up being obvious native American
There's only one Avatar. This is James Cameron's furry fapfic...
@@DonVigaDeFierro well said😁👍
🤣♥️
There language sounds kinda like ancient Germanic/anglos/Celtic (kinda like old English) and modern middle eastern language
@@DonVigaDeFierro As if furries want these things.
Can we make a petition to have the original song samples released because I *NEED* to hear them
I don’t recall a single musical cue from this entire movie. Lord of the rings however...
"RIDE NOW, RIDE NOW, RIDE, RIDE FOR RUIN AND THE WORLDS ENDING! DEATH!!!!" You can hear that swell in music right now
Paddy Neilan I get chills just thinking about it.
I can say the exact opposite, whats your point ?
I watched both and don't recall both.
@@WicariWoW whats your point?
I've really been enjoying you're videos including this one, but I wanted to comment because you really made my day today. While watching this video I was surprised to see my cousin's blog, Not Another Music History Cliche, referenced. Sadly, we lost Linda to cancer this year so having her work pop up in your video was an incredible reminder of her legacy. Keep up what you are doing!
As an Aussie I didn't realise Sam Worthington was trying to be American. I was proud to see an Australian actor using their normal accent. Now I'm embarrassed at how bad a job he did.
haha, he's from good ollll' Rockingham, nothing's getting rid of that accent lmao.
Eh i forgive him. Accents are hard.
Sam is still a great actor either way.
cosmicrdt I thought he was from Brooklyn trying to be Aussie.
I think the original concept of blending all the music is super cool. Also the fact they managed to do it is impressive, so James Cameron cutting that out makes me so maaaad
The more I listen the more I think: "Just let the man be Australian!" Good lord, he's trying so hard just to sound American when was that really necessary? Is there any canon reason that he couldn't just be Australian? Was the whole continent wiped out or is Mad Max canon to this world? lol
Remember James Cameron’s line about wanting to make this “relatable to “everyone”, from Oklahoma to South Dakota”
But still like I’m pretty sure no one would freak out about a dude talking a bit differently.
@@naman-mishra Yeah people in the mid west US have ALWAYS been accepting of other people's cultures. Especially Oklahoma where there was "the trail of t..." ... Oh wait....
@@skrounst yeah lol
Because a Hollywood blockbuster is not about to have their central white man main character, not American, nothing to do with him being Australian, everything to do with him not being American
Cameroon was probably trying to pander to the American audiences as much as possible to maximize his profit. Remember, this is by and large still an independent movie, not Marvel movie No.3467 where the studio is guaranteed to rake in profit no matter what.
'Keep your ears open to unusual sounds, things that might sound a little uncomfortable now, but with a little listening some of those could become your favorite sounds in your musical world.'
What a simple, beautiful sentiment to build your life, your entire career around
And then have 95% of it veto’ed by some shmuck who did a 180 on all the research he specifically asked for
Gosh I find it's true sometimes I get recommended some weird song or artist and move on thinking eh it's not for me then the next day I would be humming it nonstop until I go back to it! it's really a matter of getting familiar with new things that is so hard for us at first
What a beautiful way to say "repetition legitimizes"
@@eddydrouet1888 pretty much haha.
"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. You know, things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, ...."
(nails scratch across a chalkboard)
. . . . . . .
Nope! Still uncomfortable.
So, you can learn the language.. There are websites out there dedicated to teaching you the language. There are also UA-cam videos that break down the individual sounds and teach basic words so you could actually have a conversation.
Apparently there are people who meet up at conventions who's only form of common communication is the Na'vi language. They're from completely different countries and natively speak completely different languages, but they both know Na'vi, so they can talk to each other just fine.
Which I think is kind of neat.
So it's basically like learning inter Slavic?
I don't really need to learn how to pronounce the sounds because I already speak languages that use these sounds and even more...but that's not anything special, the fact that they spent so much money on worldbuilding when they could just as well have paid someone on Wattpad to do the same with the same effect.
Yeah, there's a community for just that... When I learned about it, it blew me off the rocker, ngl... It's amazing, and nuts.
secret language :D
"Apparently there are people who meet up at conventions who's only form of common communication is the Na'vi language. They're from completely different countries and natively speak completely different languages, but they both know Na'vi, so they can talk to each other just fine."
I bet they mostly talk about how sad they are picking Na'vi instead of Klingon or Elvish.
Hearing all this really makes me sad. This is actually one of my favorite non animated movies, cuz I prefer animation over live action. I haven't watched it in a while but it firmly holds a place in my heart.
But most of the music didn't really stick out to me, and I so so SO wished they'd have put in what wanted to be done with the music.
when i was studying art, i had a painting teacher who talked to us about avatar, saying that what he found amazing in this movie was the light. According to him, the people who made the movie thought about the pandoran sun, what types of gas were in the atmoshphere and how it would change the way light acts, along with colors. So basically, this movie tried to invent new light phenomenon based on the planet of the movie, and according to him, it worked really well.
Given the track record, it's more likely that that's what they originally planned to do, but Cameron thought the lighting was "too weird" and they modeled the light with Earth's atmosphere instead.
I thought the title said "iconic" and it was like...15 minutes before I realized you weren't trying to sell me on how amazing the soundtrack is =P
Same ^^
I thought I got this suggestion by UA-cam because I heard a lot of James Horners music and thought in this video I got details about the Avatar-Soundtrack I didn't realised yet ^^
I thought the same thing, and started to get really PISSED, because iconic, it ain't.
The soundtrack is one of the most forgettable parts of the movie to me. It legit sounds like such a hand-waved attempt at creating a vague non-western sound, like literally every western movie that centers around a non-western subject does. It wasn’t unique, ambitious or memorable, and for such a wildly successful movie it’s disappointing.
@@StsFiveOneLima Yeah I was like "no it's not, why are you going to try to say that, have I been missing something
omg same here, i was ready for this to be one of those videos about how "you've totally heard this song everywhere but you just don't know it," and i started getting kind of confused when it seemed like the soundtrack was made super generic lol
I’ve seen this movie too many times to just now start learning about this.
Same!
so same, I gotta say its still one of my favorite movies even tho I can very much understand why people dislike the movie. this video kinda upsets me in a good way I guess but still...
This is my second favourite movie behind lotr
If you watched this movie more than once you made at least two mistakes.
@@SpielkindFR nah
After watching all of the Star Wars movies in a 2 day marathon, (in the correct order), I gotta say the Avatar soundtrack reminds me a lot of the orchestral brass that Lucas is known for in his movies. The scene in the forest with Neytiri and the rhino creatures literally sounds like it is straight out of an older Star Wars movie. Cameron and Lucas are always trying to one up each other though so maybe the brass is like a "I can do it too" to Lucas from Cameron.
i think the contrast between the “music no one has ever heard before” and the western music would’ve done a good job to highlight the difference between the two cultures in the film and helped a lot thematically??? idk???
I thought so too. That would've been really interesting to experiment with. Too bad the other Avatar movies will likely have the same pitfall. I mean, no one plans on watching them anyway.
Don't worry, Disney will probably acknowledge that in "Avatar 5".
"I want music understood by all from Oklahoma to... three states away from Oklahoma."
🤣🤣🤣
Hahaha, yhea, that sentence was indeed offensive. Even for an european that still is as western as it gets. ^^
I allways thought james cameron did that movie for me aswell 😢 but nope ^^
It's hilarious to me he picked, of all regions on earth, two midwest US states. Not England to China, Russia to Madagascar, etc.
I love how he chose very central states too. Such diversity. Very cool.
@@rovidicus9574 Hell not even the coasts of the US or the North West to the South East. Two very similar Midwest states.
It's almost an insult with the implications.
ugh, as a writer I think I just really appreciate the world-building behind it rather than the actual characters? I just want more. I want to see more in this world and just show me you bastards.
i'm a writer as well and honestly the world building amazes me, wish they would've expanded more on it in the movie
@@chaaaargh it's supposed to next movie. will it? lol who knows.
@@bunniesbunniesbunnie apparently. hopefully another mediocre plot won't overshadow it lol
@@bunniesbunniesbunnie we’re probably gonna be dead before the next movie comes out tbh because it keeps getting “delayed”
Honestly the potential of the sequel really excites me since there is so much potential for a deep thought provoking story about tribalism(humans vs aliens but both groups are relatable)..........except that story will probably never happen. It would just be another humans are bad aliens are good narrative. Even with the best setup imaginable laid out for them, Hollywood is probably too scared to take a risk.
We miss your work man. I hope all is well.
Art needs freedom. But they didn't want art. They wanted money.
Eh i actually dont think the reason they did that was aaaaalll about money but idk i feel like if all they wanted money they would put so much effort any anyway who says that they cant take inspiration from the western music too idk
I highly recommend anyone who buys into the general vibe in popular culture that this movie was mediocre and the only good part was the visual cinematic theatrics to set aside the about 3 hours to watch the full cut Extended Edition (not the netflix or disney one or whatever, those are at least as cut as the theatrical release, though I think they even cut the tentacle sex scene, which I swear I remember being in the theatrical release). If you can't find it let me know I'll see if I can help or alternatively these movie censorship articles I found with a quick google search give an quick breakdown of what was additionally in the Special Edition and Extended Edition respectively (skip down to the "V. Report" and "II. Censorship Report" sections) www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=659729 and www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=869530
(it starts with a cyberpunk dystopia and a barfight, in case you were wondering, a lot is different and it really re-frames a decent amount of the film, both politically and artistically, I think)
James Cameron is one of the only directors who commands exceptional freedom in his projects because they always make a ton of money, so normally that critique works, but specifically does not work for specifically this film.
This makes me so mad, I love the design for the creatures, plants, world and even the human vehicles in this movie, but the story was just so... bland, i dunno. To think we could've had an actually good movie if the director didn't sabotage his own creation under the ridiculous notion that people are unable to enjoy anything that isn't immediately familiar
I'm unable to really focus on the story. I just love the beauty of the movie.
Yeah, it really would have made it cool and unique, and i think would have helped people get invested in digging in the lore, rather than in one ear out the other
This movie would have been so new and Interesting!
Cool profile pic!
So just like Star Wars A New Hope
I love how they managed to spend this crazy amount of money on all these musical and world building details, but when it came to a typeface that could have been developed for the film they just went.. *opening word document* "huh.. I guess Papyrus it is!"
DUDE EXACTLY WTF
Isn't a papyrus a mammal that lays eggs?
@@teawrecks1243 No...that's a platypus...
tea wrecks a papyrus is a plant!
HAHA SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT
All jokes aside, I think what may have happened was this:
James Cameron begins production and is in love. He spares no expense, calling in every kind of expert he can think of to create a thorough and complete setting with a fully developed culture. He gets lost in the sauce. Alien ecosystems, conlang, numerical system, astronomically accurate representations of the night sky. The coup de grace: an entirely alien soundtrack. The crown jewel of this completely new world.
Then reality smashes back in. The honeymoon phase is over. He has to make an actual movie now, and he absolutely cannot afford it to bomb. The budget that this project accrued is unthinkable. He starts cutting chunks of content, relegating them to behind the scenes material. The story can't be too weird, this has to be as universally appealing as it can be. Creature design is also reigned in - we need these aliens to have an analogue to what most audiences will recognize. Soundtrack? If it sounds weird to Cameron, it'll sound weird to the audience. They'll be taken out of the moment! No, this needs to be sanded down and made familiar.
A movie gets released. It nets unprecedented returns at the box office. Within five years, it has vanished from public discussion. What a success! What a loss...
Gem from her writeup: "Later Cameron admitted that the magnetic field generated to lift the mountains “would have to be strong enough to rip the hemoglobin out of your blood”
@@MichaelGarrity There were humans literally on the floating rocks.
This feels like another version of jk rowling hp trivia
No, because iron in the hemoglobin isn't ferromagnetic.
@@own4801 It's diamagnetic, but with strong enough magnetic fields that would happen.
“ All those scenes where Jake learns how to
*W e A v E* “
I laugh so hard to this
had to run it back😂
He learned to braid his hair
He weaves with the animals like a headcrab which would have been even more interesting than just learning how to...hunt like humans do
Oh he sure wove with Ney'tiri…
Monody OH MY GOD😂
I know nothing about music or soundtracks but my girlfriend is a massive theatre kid and she loves this kind of stuff. When I introduced her to your channel she watched all your videos in under a week. Now we eagerly await your new content and watch it together, and it makes both of us incredibly happy. Thank you for the brilliant work you do Sideways, keep it up!
Honestly it feels like the conclusion here is pretty simple. Cameron's movies, even the good ones, are slavishly obedient to the rules of either cool or pretty. Cool and pretty, of course, as defined by Western commercial appeal. He may be an auteur in the sense of his dictatorial control, but not in the sense of creativity or artistry. He's just a stone's throw away from Michael Bay- whereas Bay is the lowbrow, explosionfest, McDonald's-level filmmaker; Cameron is a middlebrow, technonerd, Olive Garden interpretation of the exact same thing. Just look at Alien vs Aliens- while I absolutely love both, it's plain that Cameron transformed Ridley Scott's moody, philosophical, artsy vision into a mechanically precise, shut-your-brain-off techno-thriller that trades every moment of introspection for an opportunity to just ooze pre-programmed cool.
The bottom line here is- any music that is authentically ethnic or alien-sounding would not be "pretty" to Western ears, so they fall back on the Hans Zimmer/Lisa Gerrard trope of just layering some generically cool and vaguely exotic-adjacent melodies and a few meaningless female vocal warbles on top of an otherwise Euro-familiar traditional Hollywood orchestral score. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone though, and I wonder if the millions of dollars and hundreds of hours were really spent on all that cultural research. Anyone who's seen a James Cameron film could have predicted that it never would have worked.
You know it's kind of ironic because Titanic had that scene in the bottom of the ship demonstrating the involvement of partying and dancing to represent the lower class culture, and then there was the string quartet that played during the film aligning with the history.
And given the topics that Way of the Water touches on you'd expect Cameron to have learned something about a film score by now but here we are.
@@lightyagami1058 But, the Titanic was of western cultures which Cameron thought the audience would love & understand.