why does mainstream feminism support the prison system?
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- can we achieve feminist justice through the criminal law? carceral feminism is a branch of feminism that would answer yes. but this video challenges carceral feminist thinking and explores alternative approaches to justice.
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 intro
03:32 carceral feminism: a problematic feminist script
14:44 reconciliation
21:38 complaining
25:22 a personal note
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SOURCES:
bell hooks. (2003). The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love.
feministkilljoys. (2022). "The Complainer as Carceral Feminist." feministkilljoys.com/2022/06/...
Gruber, Aya. (2021). The Feminist War on Crime: The Unexpected Role of Women's Liberation in Mass Incarceration.
Holmes, Caren. (2020). "Carceral Feminism, Femonationalism and Quarantine." abolitionjournal.org/carceral...
Press, Alex. (2018). "#MeToo must avoid 'carceral feminism.'" www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018...
Stop Violence Against Women. (2003). "Police." hrlibrary.umn.edu/svaw/domesti...
Thusi, India. 2021. "Feminist Scripts for Punishment." www.repository.law.indiana.ed...
tags: feminism, feminist, carceral feminism, metoo movement, prison abolitionist, abolition movement, women's rights, the prison industry, angela davis, radfem, radical feminism, reformative justice, prison industrial complex, prison reform, patriarchy, oppression, feminist philosophy, gender norms, misogyny, girlboss, social commentary, neoliberal feminism, harvey weinstein, internet analysis, video essay, analysis video, philosophy, tiktok, shanspeare, jordan theresa, vox, vice, cj the x, tiffany ferg, alice cappelle, contrapoints, philosophy tube, madisyn brown, chad chad, sisyphus 55, tara mooknee, beauty standards, choice feminism, black feminism
Carceral feminists and those with similar views to them have provided me with a grim reminder that the majority of people will excuse absolutely abhorrent, inhumane treatment as long as it happens to the "right" people.
well, to most people, doing bad to people who ostensibly willing do bad things is justice. "nobody should be treated inhumanely," where here "inhumane" is going to a prison, is a very narrow point of view. it's better to point to what oliSUNvia did, that this form of justice can ignore the social conditions of the people involved and make them worse for the victims
@@ZechsMerquise73 American prisons, and those in many other countries for that matter, are inhumane. The purpose of prisons should be to seperate dangerous individuals from those they could harm and rehabilitate them if possible. Nothing more, nothing less.
Currently, prisoners are mistreated horribly by guards and other prisoners, the American prison system has a profit incentive to detain as many people as possible, and prisoners are used for free labor by the state all the time. Who does this help other than the very types of abusive people that carceral feminists claim to hate?
Well, no, one can believe in the prison system and also believe prisons should be rehabilitative and humane.
@@rachael7160 where did you pluck that info from? Have you seen what the Nordic countries have been doing for years and their effects?
so true 😓
My mom was in the same situation, she couldn't take an action against her abuser ( my dad ) because of me and my siblings, she's a housewife and she doesn't have any income other than the money provided by my dad , she had no choice but to bear the constant humiliation and violence. People ( including my uncles) blamed her instead of helping her , convincing her that it was her fault she didn't know how to " control him " , I still remember how vulnerable and weak mom felt at that time , when in fact she was the complete opposite of that , she was so courageous to take such a decision for her kids sake ! I love you mom !
Yep, blaming the women seems to come so naturally, I find myself doing it sometimes, but then I have to remember not everything is a movie and not everyone has access to good help. People need to praise others more and try to help rather then saying "why didn't you do this?"
@@thelying2594 blaming women comes naturally to you? what? never in my life has victim blaming felt "natural". not trying to start an argument btw, i am genuinely confused and dumbfounded.
@@DumplingDoodle emphasis on "*seems* to come naturally"
i think they r implying it "seems" natural because its the easy solution we have been taught by patriarchal ideas (adding on other stuff too)
its easier to deflect blame on the person hurt rather than the one who hurt them because calling out bad behaviour destabilises the perception of them as a good person with the thought of "how could they do that!! are u sure u didnt lead them on to hurt u"
Yours is a great example of why centering of punishment as a response to most crime is a broken system. If the system concentrated on helping the victims your mom's problem would have been removed. To speak nothing of the failure of the state to support your mom which created the problem in the first place. If where you lived had adequate social security your mom could have left and relied on the state for support. This is how investment into communities (instead of police or the carceral system) is part of the solution to gendered violence, along with most systemic violence created by racism, capitalism, and patriarchy
thank you for making me tear up
This was uncomfortable. In a good way I think. But still, I feel a lot of discomfort.
Mostly, I'm thinking of the attempted SA by a stranger that happened to me when I was 10. At that time, I didn't actually want to tell anyone, but my friend told her mom who told my mom who told the police who forced me into testifying on video. Once all that happened I actually wanted to go to the court date, but my mother did not allow me to go. I'm still mad. Especially, I'm mad at the system that gave me no agency in the way my case was handled. I actually had a greater loss of agency from the system than the attempted assault. I had actually managed to push away the man and yell at him and make him leave. But no matter how assertive I was, my mother and the system would not listen to my requests.
And yet still, saying that the man who assaulted me should not be punished for it seems impossible to me. It feels like saying what he did was ok. I get that he possibly came from a background where children are viewed differently; I get that he was lonely. But I'm not okay with saying that giving him therapy (when I, the victim, can't even afford it) is sufficient. Would it be enough to protect other children? No idea. Would it be fair to me and any other of his potential victims? No.
I feel like a petulant child, writing this. Like I'm somehow not enlightened enough. I guess I need that therapy that I can't afford.
Maybe that's my point. For me it is more urgent to reform the system so that victims have better putcomes, rather than reforming it so that perpetrators have better outcomes.
I think there were a lot of points that had to be moved over quickly to cover the over-arching concepts in a 30 minute video. I don't think that olivia would argue everyone can be released, but I think because of the recent cultural narrative to essentialize crime it seems less realistic than it is. For now though, I think everyone agrees we have to operate within the system, and preventing those situations by connecting with the people who are receptive/encouraging/supporting others who do, or even just raising awareness is the best way to do something today.
I don't think just therapy is enough for the abuser who came after you. Something like drug rehabilitation facilities (live in for months, not kushy amenities though) would be ideal, preferably with training courses for decent earning jobs so they can make enough money to not feel desperate. These are just reforms to add to the list of the progressive wish list, along with offering those services to people who don't commit crimes.
I agree with your point 100%. I said this other another comment at some point of attempting to do something harmful you know ots wrong, law wise or not, you know you shouldn't do it meaning a LOT of people should be punished because they truly did something wrong and know it.
there’s a book of essays called “we do this till we free us” by a prison abolitionist that i think you’d enjoy. it both argues against carceral logics while explaining how they’re tied to not providing help to the victim
Punishing your perpetrator wouldn't help you..... Like at all... And therapy is just one part. He still would have to take accountability for his actions in a mutual aid system just not the way we do it today.
I understand this. But like Olivia said there is punishment and then there are consequences. Like punishment is just about exerting power and control over another person. Is that is what you want? The power to dominate the person that has harmed you? It is okay if it is. Zero judgements from me. I don't think it is any person's job to tell victims that they aren't allowed to want that. Especially in the world,we live in, we do not really have anything else to offer. It is hard to let go of the one tool you have to repair the harm that has been done to you. Even if it is not a particularly effective tool. You shouldn't have to feel like you have to give it up. The conversation is about how we a collective society need to give y'all more tools than this. I want that to be the take away.
It is a idea that does place victims at the center. Because right now we actually place the perpetrator at the center. There is no part of our current process that asks victims what they need to make their lives better. To help them heal. And to actually make sure this doesn't happen again. The entire focus is on punishing the perpetrator. I mean it doesn't even instruct the perpetrator on what they did wrong and how to change the behavior. And I think a question you should ask yourself when you speak on reform is what aspect of the criminal justice system or of our system of punishment that can be reformed that will give victims better outcomes. What is the police gonna do to give victims better outcomes? What are the courts gonna do to give victims better outcomes? What are prisons gonna do to give victims better outcomes? I am sure there could be little tweaks here and there. But nothing that actually gives victims better outcomes. The thing that prevents victims achieving better outcomes are usually systemic failures that come from outside the criminal justice system. And if we actually addressed those issues, we would see a lot of these problems go away. We know the conditions that create the violence we want to get rid of. But instead of addressing those conditions, we just punish. We leave victims to their own device when it comes to their healing process when they need community support more than ever. But instead of investing in programs that will get them the support they need, we invest in police. We invest in jails. We invest in prosecutors.
We already live in a reality were the majority of perpetrators go unpunished. And we definitely live a society that validates abusers and let's them and other people believe what they did was okay. A large part of this sort of uncomfortableness is that our knee jerk reaction to losing the idea of power over these perpetrators. Did we actually have power over those people? A lot of the time, no. And they are free to go about their business. I mean we have to look at the statistics. Like 1 of 4 women are have experience domestic violence and like 1 of 5 have experience an attempted or completed sexual assault in their lifetime. It is a fantasy if we think we are gonna be able to inflict punishment for a problem that is so pervasive. This is too big of a problem. And part of the point is understanding that this is too big of a problem to be focus on punishing people. The resources are not there and we already pour tons and tons of money into this just to get back very little results. We value punishment more than creating better outcomes for victims and the community at large. We all know that our system of punishment is a massive drain of our resources. And it can't even keep up. Our criminal justice system is overwhelmed as despite all the resources we pour into it. Yes if we start to move those resources to places that actually benefits victims and the community, we are not gonna have the means to be doling out the level of punishments that we are used to.
So maybe a reframing that can help get past this block, is asking why are you okay with the fact our current model does not address your concerns either? However you are able to wrap your head around that is the grace we are asking for. You need this new model to have all the answers that the current model does not have either. Like we abolitionists don't have all the answers to these questions, but the carceral girlies don't have it either. What we can say is that our model would prioritize supporting victims in their journey towards healing. Our model focuses on prioritize creating the necessary social programs, services, and policy changes that will reduce or eliminate the conditions that cause this harmful behavior/actions we want to avoid. But we also don't know what we are gonna see on the other side of this. We don't know what new types of crime patterns that will emerge when we are able to reduce/eliminate our existing ones. And maybe in that future our model is discarded and replaced with something that works better in their reality and then it keeps going until humans die off.
Domestic abusers also get released. With punishment being at the centre of the justice system, rather than rehabilitation, it is dangerous releasing them when the victims have inadequate protections. It’s not difficult to assume resentment has been built in their spent time.
You're right, they shouldn't be released if they are harboring resentment.
And furthering on that, what responsibility does someone have to improve when they are repeatedly reminded that they are a born evil monster beyond redemption? What possible good can the current punitive system do for either victim or perpetrator?
the mishandling of the cases and the lack of assistance for cases when an abuser is removed from the home is wrong and very fair thinking. allowing these people to go uninterrupted in their actions needlessly harming others cannot fly. if things were better families could get assistance and therapy on all sides during these instances. while the system in place is broken with many families in these situations suffer the mental effects for their entire lives and often financial as well, turning the other cheek is cruel to both the victim and the perpetrator
Have you,or anyone, ever demonstrated any reliable, scalable system for rehabilitation? Ever? No.
Thank you for touching on the indigenous women facing higher chances of murder, in Canada the media tries to hide this.
No they don't, they literally report on missing and murdered indigenous women every couple of weeks and have a national month for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. Maybe if you read the National Post?
@@dmfaccount1272 spoken like a true Canadian where sure reporting, which is always muted for comments because they know what our culture is actually about in deep colonial bigotry gets, there is very little done by the judiciary on any level, municipal, provincial or federal to these crimes because it's a racist settler system, you can even found on the RCMP to have a hand in these murders with the joys of a starlight cruise.
So when you reference national post of any shit rag I gotta ask, are you a conservative or just a full on neoliberal because either way it's a spineless Canadian take to think a performative political move like a month of recognition while actively upholding violence is any damned good.
They report on it constantly. They just usually fail to mention it's mostly native men doing the killing of native women.
Yall LOVE victimizing ethnic women uh? Poor, black…just to push the narra
@@outdoorloser4340
Thats what I wanted to say. Nobody wants to acknowledge cultural differences here, because that would shattered the “the west is a patriarchy and white men are evil” narrative
getting people to change is more complicated than simply giving them consequences, and I appreciate you diving into this topic Olivia
I'm pretty sure Japan might have the opposite problem in regards to gender, but I find the sheer contrast in how they handle their criminals even in media a little amusing in comparison to how they would be treated in America. While watching officers listen to the sob stories of criminals in my mother's favorite dramas, the entire time I would know American police officers would basically yell "Get'im!" and then tackle the person to ground and maybe even dog pile the criminal.
i think thats the whole point women kinda get sick of trying to change men
@@user-uq6ht did you watch the video?
@@user-uq6htput the blame on the minority of the world population as always
@@user-uq6ht women don’t need to be the ones to change them. What I’m talking about are resources like counseling, therapy, drug abstinence programs that help teach people how to carry their lives in a health way.
Regardless, not making an effort to cause change is the biggest contributor to situations that enable men. Just as a woman doesn’t want to change a man, a man does not want to change himself. In both situations “punishment” is used less as an act to change, and more as one to cause fear.
Not only that, but it is everyone’s responsibility to help guide people in the right direction. This goes especially for relationships. A situation where in this case a woman has tried to help change a man and becomes tired is one thing, a situation where a woman takes on the history of all women and says they’re tired is another. This is similar to what has been happening with the African American community, and most minorities in general. This coming from an African American, who does their best to respect their partner and minorities at large.
So my mom abused me and was able to keep me because they saw her as the victim. If you want change then protect the children. My abusers put me in situations where I could have died. I was a child but ignored. I don't want my abusers to do well. I want my life to improve. If my abusers were in a situation to hurt others then I would want them to not have access to future victims.
In Russia we don’t have any laws against domestic violence. If a criminal abuses their partner, they will not face any serious consequences, they will just have to pay a fine which is around like 300 in dollars. And that’s it. If a woman calls the police saying that she is being abused, she will be told to figure it out herself and not call there ever again. So not putting criminals to jail just doesn’t make anything better.
I also wanted to say that at least your government is trying to do something about it, mine just hopes that if they don’t pay that problem (which they don’t even consider a problem) any attention, it will eventually go away
The criminal justice system needs to be reformed. Abolishing it altogether is foolish. In the absence of consequences, you get a real-life version of The Purge. Proponents of this position often claim that the issue is the economic conditions people find themselves in. Sorry, beating your wife or molesting kids has nothing to do with desperation. I do, however, agree that the state should provide more resources to victims. Letting perpetrators walk is ridiculous.
American prisons are called school, you go to prison and learn how to not get caught again. You learn to be violent. You learn who you can call to get specific things done. The US prison system increases people's likelihood to reoffend. Yes, repeat abusers should be locked up. But the US 'justice" system is about making slaves not protecting anyone or anything.
@@MrDMC11889 this type of mindset is so ignorant and bad overall is incredible honestly
putting them in jail doesn’t happen as much as you think in countries tgat go against them,eastern europe generally has those laws to be there,and as the point was already made,putting people in jail doesn’t solve the issue all togheter(you will just have jails to be full and that is basically it) women are not gonna stop being abused
I worked as a drug counselor with probationers and parolees, people with histories of severe mental health conditions and stretches of homelessness. Believe me, I am all for system reform. But i want to give my perspective: there are some people who need to be separated from society for everyone else's safety. It's not a huge portion of convicts, but it's also not negligible, either.
If a bear attacks people on a picnic, even though the bear doesn't have free will and we can't reasonably expect it to act differently, just purely out of an interest in people's safety, we have good reason to lock the bear up or separate the bear from people. I had a few clients over the years who were just straight up dangerous and needed to be away from society.
Working with ex cons, i started to think that we really needed a way to separate out people who want to change from the people who don't. The people who don't want to change truly have a pernicious effect on the healing process for others. But in the prison system, everyone is lumped together.
She didn't advocate for eliminating prison all together, just not using it as a first line of defense for all instances of DV, for people to generally have enough of a grip on themselves to differentiate abuse from conflict and learn de-escalation techniques. I feel like you're mostly in agreement, but she covered so much ground in so little time a lot of the finer points got glossed over.
what john said !! but also, i think another one of olivias points was to also be mindful of what makes someone that bear. not everyone is born a bear, some are raised that way by complex circumstances and this should be looked into more.
@@xioyzdang I'm worried I misstated my point with the bear example. Locking up the bear is an example where both punishment is pointless, and reform is pointless. The bear cannot be reformed by any punishment we can do, and punishing the bear is not really going to be an act of justice. But even so, separating the bear from people is merited, because we have reasonable grounds to expect people are going to get hurt. So, just to say, community safety is kind of it's own independent variable in this whole thing.
People are not born like the bear. People can make choices. Our nature is not 100% set in stone by environment, or anything else.
On the flip side of that, some traits appear to lifelong, particularly with narcissism and psychopathy. I'm not saying that justifies x, y or z, but rather, this is a group of perpetrators who, on the level of the brain, operate differently from everyone else. They have different needs. Whatever our solution is as a society, I think this has to be accounted for.
In US prison culture, particularly for men, the prison system is so dangerous and lethal that even normal people can get sucked into the criminal mentality. I've seen it happen where ostensibly normal young men go in with a drug problem, and come out gangsters. It's truly horrible.
For example, whether you like it or not, in CA state prison, you are joining a race based gang, and you're going to have to participate. If you don't, you're going to get hurt or killed. Shotcallers and gang leaders exert power and control over others through the use of violence. This kind of environment basically makes healing impossible, it's so hostile and traumatizing.
So that's kind of what I'm getting at when I'm talking about separating people out. On one layer, there are psychopaths and people who are dangerous to the community, and there's good reason to seperate them from society for everyone else's safety. Then you have a deeper layer under that, where _in_ _the_ _prison_, there are people who are so dangerous that they need to isolated even from other prisoners.
@@wolfumz I get you and I think that this is something we can't really get away from - but it's also not necessarily incompatible with a restorative/transformative justice perspective. While it's still about removing people's freedom, it's a conclusion that you draw after moving away from the concept of punishment and vengance.
For me, a question I've asked myself a lot is that if everyone who was an active danger to the people around them were locked away from the public and would never hurt anyone ever again, on the condition that they had permanent access to all the luxury food and entertainment and comfort they could ever want on some paradise island far away, staffed by robots and without wifi but with every show and game they've ever dreamed of downloaded... would it be worth it? And my conclusion is that yes, I'd absolutely give every creep and pimp and rapist and abuser a wonderful life with every need fulfilled, if that is the price to pay for nobody to ever be victimized by them. What that means to me is first off that on a personal level I relish in seeing men who hurt me and people I care about suffer but on a societal level their feelings can't be prioritized higher than the safety of victims... and second of all, that even if nobody is being punished and the focus is rehabilitation, there's still value in keeping them away from people they could hurt, independently of the punishment aspect.
And I don't know if that makes any sense but I feel like it gets me perspective on all this? It's a thought experiment that makes me uncomfortable, but I feel like I learned a lot about my values and ideals as I thought about it.
@Truth Balm So, you're just going to skip over everything I said about de-escalation, communication, etc. and make the claim that I said abusers should stay around the victim after they've escalated to DV or SV? What a pathetic joke.
"justice needs to be delivered forcefully and swiftly for these morons."
It would take absolutely 0 effort to convince you to be a Nazi. Do you know who commits the most DV and SV, and where it happens? It's POC in the ghettos, cause it's a CYCLE of violence, this is why ACTUAL leftists user material and systemic analysis, unlike you. You sound like literally any other right-wing reactionary. Hitler will deliver swift and forceful JUSTICE to the jews for the aryans. Nixon delivered swift and forceful JUSTICE to the drug dealing hippies and blacks. Bush will deliver SWIFT AND FORCEFUL JUSTICE for the 9/11 WTC building attacks. You already think similarly to nazis, you just haven't pieced together where the most R and DV happens yet. Material conditions and systemic analysis be damned, they *had* a choice (operative word, HAD a choice)... You're a MF freak, you are why Olivia had to make this video.
One critique. It's not a binary "you're either guilty or innocent" in the justice system. It's "you're either guilty or not guilty." Not proving guilt doesn't prove innocence by default. Guilty people can be found not guilty, it doesn't mean they're innocent, it just means the court can't adjudicate a person guilty based on many factors. (i.e. insufficient evidence, legal prescidence, etc.) I know that might seem nitpicky, but i see people echoing the same sentiments not fully understanding the actual meaning of the terms.
Likewise many people are found guilty in court that are actually innocent of the crimes they are convicted of.
Following that, I think the adversarial system specifically applies to deciding which crimes etc were committed, and not necessarily the rest of the justice system, right?
@@justforplaylists It can apply to the justice system. According to the American Bar Association, 98% of criminal cases in federal courts end in a plea bargain. This means a lot of people can be forced by the police and prosecutors to say that they committed a crime even if they didn’t do it.
@@chocolatte7736 I think there are 2-3 issues that are getting mixed up.
AFAIK "adversarial" doesn't mean "the state is adversarial against defendants", it means "the state and the defendant each have someone who represents only them against the other", as opposed to older systems where only the state had representation.
If people are taking bad plea bargains, there's a lack of balance between the state and the defendant and that's bad. But within the current system it would mean the system isn't adversarial enough.
This video is talking about trying to find systems where both the defendant and victim theoretically benefit. And it's true that the current system rarely does that. So the current system is in that way "adversarial" in the colloquial sense of the word. But there's a specific technical sense of the word that is much narrower, and by using it in the other way the video ends up arguing two things at once.
Like, I don't think she meant to say that there should be a single fact finder shared by the state and by the defendant. But that is what she accidentally said by using the technical term as if it was a general term.
If I understand correctly.
Problem is, it's the only way we have to prove a person is guilty or innocent. If a person is declared innocent, to the justice he or she is. Justice cannot function through faith. Otherwise society would come crashing down and we would go back to the middle ages. It's the only thing that holds us and this whole thing together in something barely resembling peace when compared to how things used to be.
A critical thing you got wrong in this… at 4:00 you say that you are either sentenced to being guilty or innocent.
No. This is wrong and it matters.
You are either guilty or NOT guilty. Being NOT guilty does NOT mean you are innocent. It means that when the case was presented, with the facts provided, the facts provided did not support the claim of guilt. That does NOT make you innocent. Being found not guilty does NOT mean you did nothing wrong. It also does NOT mean that you are not guilty of a lesser crime.
This is why we don’t try cases in the court of public opinion. The average person does not understand how significant this is.
In my understanding she means the eye of the public. When abusers are found not guilt, the public often time jumps onto the Victims saying their were lying.
@@paulheinisch5914 the same way in the eye of the public accused abusers are jumped on before any evidence has been presented
This is incorrect. You are innocent until proven guilty. You were presumed innocent all along. You are not required to “prove” you are innocent because you already are. It is a basic human right afforded to you.
@@MrDeathChicken You are presumed innocent in courts in the U.S. But a court in the U.S. has two options. Guilty or not guilty. They do not pronounce you innocent (except in INCREDIBLY RARE circumstances that are HIGHLY unusual). And not guilty does not mean innocent. It means that what was asserted about you is not the case (but other things MAY be true). This is why not guilty is used instead of a proclamation of innocence.
@@EverettVinzant you missed my point. I am saying it doesn’t matter because you do not need to be proven innocent. Being found not guilty maintains your innocence. It does not need to be proven because you already are.
Another tangent to consider: Women who take matters into their own hands and take action against their abuser(s), are overwhelmingly harshly punished by the criminal justice system, (because proving abuse is notoriously hard) therefore further harming women.
Thats what she said...
That theory is so outdated, We've seen so many instances of just words, destroying a man, with little to no evidence because we must " believe all women " since 2016
Yes they are too bad the so called justice system lets the ones who just and kill women and kids a few months to nothung
Stop spreading lies.. The justice system overwhelmingly gives women more lenient sentences compared to men for the same crime. . Get your facts right.
@@vira1340 did you even read my comment? I'm talking about one specific instance (women getting abused, justice system is largely incapable or unwilling to help, women defending themselves against their abusers, justice system penalising the self defense because abuse is hard to prove) while you compare the whole range of what this society deemed a crime and the difference in harshness of punishment.
I think before i need to get my facts straight you need a reading comprehension course.
I think that we should focus on the victims NOT on the abusers. If a woman can’t afford to live alone with her child then we should advocate for better social care system, not let her live with the literally abusive man. Abusive people should not be around children and they are not „an extra hand when raising a child”; like wtf?
you fail to see the point of the video, which is that men are also victims whether you understand that or not. it does not excuse violence or abuse at all, but you again fail to see the intersection of race in the context of that situation. i imagine you’d say “well she can just get another job and apartment” which is naïve and unrealistic for a poc living in poverty. there isn’t a “focus on the abusers” simply because they’re also being mentioned instead of ignored. theres no victim without an abuser, understanding why someone does so is the only way to solve the issue. ignoring that will only continue the problem.
@@sillyghostbaby of course i would not say it. thats why i believe that helping the victims should be the priority (this includes a need to change the current racist system). and the reason why a man commited a crime should also be discussed BUT understanding his background does not make him less of an abuser. this video fails to address the fact that abusive people are dangerous to both their partners and kids and their victims’ trauma cannot be neglected.
@@okurx i agree, however that view limits the ability to stop the problem at its source. understanding why men abuse the people they are supposed to love is not just a simple “okay i get it, now go to jail”. there should be the highest quality of support and protection for victims. but there should also be the same level of effort in stopping men from even considering violence in the first place. sending every abuser to jail or death will never end domestic abuse. victims need and deserve support, but the system is broken and men are struggling. going to prison likely makes men even more hardened and resistant to change or love. and there will never not be victims if this cycle continues. ideally, abusers would be disconnected from their victims and actually go to therapy, receive education and counseling, and be monitored for future abuse. not sent to a cold heartless jail where everyone is just as broken as you.
@@sillyghostbaby you’re right. thank you for sharing your opinion, it helped me understand this issue better.
@@okurx i really appreciate your kindness ! this has helped me understand the issue more as well. take care :) 🤍
I understand the role of this video in approaching this broader issue of carceral feminism and the more comprehensive effects of the patriarchy on all demographics. I agree very strongly with the promotion of restorative justice and the fundamental failures of punitive justice. Yet I think it is important to clarify that the sentiments expressed in this video aren't going to be very useful for people experiencing abuse now. The most effective end goal would be a reformation of the justice system, but for those existing within our current justice system this video almost makes things seem more hopeless, with no ability to escape their conditions and with seemingly no power to deal with their present abuse. I think it would be helpful to have just a small section on what people can do now and what actions people can take under the current system, hopefully without affirming it. I think it can harmful to talk about systemic issues without recognizing that the actions each individual may have to take will be different from what society needs to do to fix the root issues.
This! At some point it started to feel like to even talk about the abuser THIS indepth, it made me feel like "what about the person being abused!". Like sure, it's probably not great for other people to feel "good" about an abuser getting arrested... but the "you're breaking up a family" seems like the absolute WEAKEST argument. Seeing abuse and experiencing abuse is its own trauma. At some point it becomes math. Will the abuser be traumatized in prison? Probably. With the partner and child no longer be abused by that person in jail? Idk I don't like the math it implies.
@Krupa It’s ALWAYS the patriarchy.
@@FinickyVoid I was thinking about the “breaking up a family” statement in economic terms. Like, a domestic abuse victim who’s underprivileged might lose their entire safety net if the abuser is simply jailed and divorced. The family unit is a concrete, material thing, not a weak, sentimental, abstract relationship. Further, it doesn’t just include the abusive spouse either - there’s all the connections that come with that, there’s the impact of a parent who’s a felon on generational wealth for the kids, on and on.
I really don’t want to be misunderstood, so I need to be clear here: I am NOT saying “stay with the abuser or face poverty for yourself and your kids” is any kind of solution. It is not. Because the systemic problem is slow to solve, the appropriate solution is to create any distance necessary between the abuser and the victim, probably through the existing punitive justice system.
@@FinickyVoid i would rather live in poverty than keep living with my dad. my mom is too fucking weak to leave him because "he's her husband", he SA'd me when i was 9 and i am terrified he is gnna do the same to my sisters and my mom keeps having kids because he wants more boys. so fucking tired of this constant abuse but apparantly he shouldnt be punished for all he has done and should be given a chance to heal because he isn't evil, he is just a victim of the patriachy. abusers, they are just like us.
i completely understand, and that’s why i resonate with angela davis’ “both/and” logic. she says she works towards prison abolition but also works at holding perpetrators accountable in our current system. nothing has to be one or the other
This was really tricky for me to watch and process. I don’t know if anyone else will see this comment and could help me get a better grip on everything. I’m someone who has seen a lot of domestic violence in her life and I wasn’t expecting this video to be focused on that. My mother was a victim, my aunt was a victim, my grandmother was a victim, my fiancée grew up for a few years in a CEASE shelter due to her mother being a victim. I even have my coworker who is a victim currently and tells me she worries about getting murdered if she tries to leave, and she’s in a lesbian relationship. I do believe that sometimes, honestly I’d even say most times, physically separating the abuser from the victim is one of the only ways a victim can safely leave, or begin the process of leaving. In a perfect world this separation could be going to intensive therapy rather than our prison system that all but ensures recidivism, but we aren’t in a perfect world yet. I know that I carry a lot of baggage on this topic and so my biases conflicted with fully understanding this video, but I just feel weird with the idea of abusers just needing to be talked to or needed some therapy and for women to focus on them being multifaceted and morally gray, specifically because when the threat of murder and physical violence and trauma is so incredibly high. Again, I’m sure I’m missing the nuance here and I hate thinking I’m some “carceral feminist” but from my experience abusers do need to be dealt with and separated from their victims. Although I will say I’m a 23 year old white woman and all of the women I know who were/are victims are white women who were with with white abusers.
Yeah, it's easy for people (ahem me) to talk about situations like that when we didn't experience it. OliSUNvia did briefly mention that anti-carcelar feminism taken to the extreme is also bad.
In my opinion, the whole prison system should be COMPLETELY changed, but in the meantime, in the current system, it's very difficult to know what to do. What I think makes sense is that anyone being harmed by someone else shouldn't feel any pressure to understand, help or reconcile with their abuser. But other, more fortunate people should try to see the world in a black and white way if they're able to.
And yes, seperating abusers from abused is very important in my opinion
abusers dont just need to be talked with, it should be a complex process of changing and growing. the abusers we see as evil are actually really simple. as a 20 yo guy, who experienced abuse himself and used to have a lot of interaction with abusers who were just guys i know or my relatives, i see that cleary. The problem with abusers is their immaturity. they cannot solve problems and deal with their emotions properly, they cannot cooperate and communicate, express their feelings and ask for help, so the only other way they can satisfy their need of love is through control, manipulations and violence. but the reason why we actually can change them is the fact that they also suffer bc of their immaturity and if we suggest a solution, they might accept it, knowing that it is a good alternative to endless suffering or going to a jail
I think Olivia was using abuse and heated conflict somewhat interchangeably. Conflict is usually something you can work through, and abuse is when it crosses personal safety boundaries. For pysically dangerous situations, I think olivia would agree people need to be separated, but preferably not by the police. And for the worst criminals, prison is still an option. She never said everyone can be rehabilitated, but it's reasonable to think most people can be.
as someone who experienced CSA for many years and later reported it to my school + which eventually led to him (my R*pist) going to jail....I feel this comment
what tools are we given...we just take it? what options do we have in the short term?
@@BUG25985 She's not talking about your experience.
As retired Detention officer & social worker you are on the mark 🎯 The system isn't broken, it's structured/incentivized to keep you in the system so budgets like CPS can get funding in the billions ⚠️ 80% of the budget is administrative, not for said victims. Kid's are far more at risk when you remove the father out of the home.
Idk as a child who watched my mother be abused for years, I just can’t get behind the abuser literally staying in the home for the sake of an extra hand…
That wasn't even remotely what was being said or implied. It's about what sorts of calculated and complicated decisions abuse victims have to make when the solutions on hand - from the carceral State - will make them worse off in the long-run. Come on.
@@voxomnes9537 We all interpret things in our own way. I’m an abolitionist and still think it should have been approached differently. It actually WAS being implied that there will be a broken home if an abusive member of the family leaves, i.e. is no longer present, but incarcerated. I would argue the family is already broken. And the question was posed whether that should happen or not...by Olivia…so my comment isn’t that far fetched. I realize she isn’t the first abolitionist to pose this concept, but either way it can be very triggering to people. Respect 🩵
She didn’t said that, she said that arresting the abuser will not always solve the problems and there should be further actions like financial and mental health support to the victim and the abuser.
It doesn’t mean the abuser will just walk free with a check and some medical appointments, it means he will still be detained and punished but in the long term the system will try to rehabilitate him.
@@NicoleReign No, she said this happen in certains situations, she didn’t said arresting the aggressor always lead to a « broken home » in every situation.
@@ni9274 I wish she would have continued and presented that, because that’s the goal right? Separation from the abuser and financial support and care for the victim. But then it was the statement where she was talking about how the victim could use an extra hand and taking an abuser who provides for their family would cause problems. She didn’t mention how that help would be given to them or how the extra hand would be filled, and I know she didn’t say that outright, this is just how it’s interpreted possibly by victims so that’s just my pov…
I agree with everything you said, and I think reformative justice is generally a good idea. But as a woman living in México, where there about 11 women murdered everyday just for being women,(they're called feminicidios, I don't think there is a translation).In my city there was a month in which 20 women were killed by feminicidad.Putting the killers in jail sometimes feels like the only answer, because it is extremely tiring to live in a place where everyday I fear I might get kidnapped or killed. So for the time being I think is okey to put them in jail, maybe there is way to change it, but it will take years there are women's lives on the line.
Como mexicano te doy la razón... It caused me great discomfort to perceive that her perception seems to be very focused on something idealistic. As a man, I have never felt the same uncertainty as school or work colleagues who feel they are putting themselves in the worst possible risk just to comply with their daily routines when going out. Many crimes may have origins derived from the patriarchal model or even psychological conditions, but crime is what shakes everything, the action against someone else. For some reason it seems that people try to find more reasons to underestimate the seriousness of inflicting harm on others...
I think the English term would be femicide, killing someone because they are a woman.
Literal!!! Solo he visto 13 minutos del vídeo pero se me hace una buena solución la cárcel, se que va a terminar el vídeo y seguiré estando de acuerdo con mi punto de vista. Como una persona que tiene familiares con historias de abuso doméstico, es horrible escuchar el acoso y todo lo que conlleva, por más que se pongan denuncias y se intente hacer que cambien tarda muchísimo tiempo, tiempo que puede salvar la vida de una persona o no.
Cuando era niña un compañero de clases me hizo algo muy feo quería que le pasará una consecuencia pero como era niña y tenía miedo no pasó nada. Termino siendo un abuso sin consecuencias y aquí o tienes consecuencias o todo sigue igual.
Es muy idealista pensar en los abusadores más que en las víctimas y como víctima no quisiera unas cuantas charlas y caso cerrado. Especialmente cuando todos los días salgo a estudiar y así este tapada de pies a cabeza señores me hacen acoso callejero, esos señores no van a cambiar con charlas, y sabiendo lo locos que son hasta podría empeorar.
Si el vídeo continúa como creo que lo hará, es lo mismo que ser idealistas. Hay muchos casos de abuso horribles muchos he visto por ejemplo en Corea, uno donde un hombre violó horriblemente a una niña pequeña tanto así que le daño sus partes íntimas de por vida y actualmente está libre. Y muchos de esos abusadores salen con la suya con excusas como el alcohol, saben lo que hacen y aún así no hay consecuencias a sus actos.
But that's the crucial divider between progress and fear; the ability to recognize the roots of the issues and combat them with kindness and change rather than enforce the inhumane systems that we already know don't get anything done. It's not a nice thought, because countless will be harmed, but it's a step towards permanent solutions. We can't keep avoiding scary realities.
I think the video completely aligns with the sentiment in your comment. The problem with femicide in Mexico right now isn't going to be fixed with therapy. Ideally, we'd be able to figure out why we have this problem, and what drives men to do this. But it isn't up to us, and it most definitely isn't up to the victims to try to figure out.
In the end, the video really is just an idealistic exploration of punishment. Bringing up the femicide problem makes the whole thing feel stupid. I'm sure we aren't surrounded by truly evil men that commit murder because it's fun. I'm sure something happened to them, something is wrong with them, and they need help. I'm sure of it. But I don't feel it.
Ese tema siempre me agüita y no puedo ni pensar. Qué manera de remover cualquier esperanza para la humanidad que me sobraba.
As someone who has experienced multiple instances of rape, SA, CSA and COCSA, whose abusers continue to walk free and catch my eye in my city, this... this is a hard one. This makes me feel a way and I can't say it's necessarily positive, or even open. I have a lot to unpack.
you have nothing to unpack or reasons to feel guilty about not empathising with your abusers. you don't owe them anything, especially humanity, when they took away yours.
@@MichelleSmith-gt1py The problem is that you're viewing this as transaction based where you're not looking at the nuance of how and why the abuser abused only that you're hurt and want immediate revenge.
I read an article written by the woman who campaigned to criminalise upskirting (taking photos of women's underwear without consent) in the UK, called "I made upskirting illegal. This is why I don’t want to change any more laws" and her perspective is very interesting, specially this part:
" My politics is no longer the politics I had eight years ago. I know now that the UK has the most privatised criminal “justice” system in Europe. I know that companies who operate prisons have a vested interest in maintaining incarceration. And that prison is the opposite of growth and rehabilitation. And so here comes the tension: my immediate safety has been improved by the incarceration of men who want to hurt me, but the system that did it will not make them less likely to harm me, others or themselves when they come out."
She doesn't regret her activism or creating the law, but her focus now is on preventing these issues before they need to criminalise it. And she understands that the current prison system has zero interest in prevention and rehabilitation
You’re like the most sincere UA-camr I regularly watch, also I appreciate the fact that you don’t have distracting background music when talking
TRUEEE
Black women SHOULD be encouraged to report their abusers. Black Women are now realizing that the fear of calling the police only harms black women, girls, and children even more.
exactly this. bw sacrifice themselves for the sake of protecting bm. bm are still men, and will tear apart women on the basis of being women.
Exactly
black women sacrificing themselves and their children so a black man doesn’t go to jail is lunacy. No one who cares about. BW would suggest we remain abused
Not that simple I feel, when years of systematic fear has been pushed into the culture, to not trust and fear police. As well, the fear of police treating you unjustly because you are a black woman. Even when needing them in crisis.
@@jesusnmarychainwhat if they are just protecting themselves? What if they can’t trust a officer will actually do anything or help them? Sometimes officers commit the same type of abuse and dismay of black women their abusers also enacted.
This video makes me really think. But i really don't know how you can make a victim feel safe again after the trauma (i am not saying that the jail is the only option, but i don't see other perspectives that really works)
It's not about making someone feel safe, that's not the purpose of any part of the criminal justice system. It is supposed to help deter crime and keep those who commit it from committing it again. If I had a phobia of spiders I can't ask the local PD to come down and shoot at the spiders, I can call 9/11 if I get bitten by a venomous spider though.
Therapy, in theory everybody should recover.
See I dont think that jail actually makes most victims feel much safer. Like yes, it will provide comfort knowing that the specific individual who hurt them is gone and cant hurt them, but often times they still feel unsafe afterwards, not out of fear of the abuser but out of fear of people in general. That lack of safety can't really be resolved by the notion that the perpetrator can't hurt them because it isn't based in logic, it's based in trauma, and trauma requires emotional healing, not logical reasoning to be healed.
@@aerchys4779if my abuser is allowed to be free after going to therapy, I would feel even less safe.. most women want their abusers imprisoned
@@Kulei666 therapy does not fix everything.
i’m only halfway through the video so far so i’m sorry if this point is addressed later on, i just don’t want to forget the train of thought.
it seems like a lot of the arguments you presented against incarceration are not principally against incarcerating people for such actions, but rather point out the harmful socioeconomic consequences that can result from incarcerating certain men. it seems then that this is less an argument against incarceration and more an argument for expanding welfare and improving social policy. so i find it a bit confusing why the conclusion is more focused on anti-incarceration than pro-welfare.
Exactly. It's a weird argument.
Very true, many of the adverse outcomes mentioned could be solved with a bigger social safety net and better laws to protect vulnerable populations
My guess is she just wanted a deconstruction of incarceration feminism and didnt leave enough room in for tried and tested solutions. The nordic prison model has probably one of the best modern approaches ever developed in our lifetimes with true rehabilitation being at the center of their programs. They stop the cycle of violence and hatred by giving prisoners the space to adequately build the necessary skill on reflecting on their problems and actually solving their anger and violent behaviors. the american prison system fails and and doesnt really try to break the cycle of hate, infact, it perpetuates it through repeat offenders.
Right?
@@leeleeh508 the social safety nets are the only things that would improve society. Laws don't do anything. Laws punish people with consequences for acting outside of defined social contracts. If these people don't have any inclination to abide by these contracts, usually due to living shitty lives with no social security, they will act outside of the societal expectations due to not even having a tangible attachment to it.
If you make someone more "welcomed" in a given society, they will help to make it prosper.
And the only fix to the system is rehabilitation, our current system has a habit of making people far worse off after they come out than before. Recidivism drops massively, the problem is usually the funding of such a system.
I completely appreciate that incarceration does not solve crimes against women, but leaving women in violent situations isn't a solution. Yes, the perpetrators should be removed from the family, not necessarily prison. AND women should be aided to economically help themselves and their families. IT'S NOT JUST POOR OR ETHNIC MEN WHO ABUSE THEIR PARTNERS. It's not about culture or society oppressing them. That's bullshit. Stop pushing that victim narrative. It's about how angry men turn their pain, disappointment and anger onto weaker people. They don't fight with people who can defend themselves so they can control their behaviour and know who to abuse. Societies don't help either which is why things have turned into a police state, which is not good.
She didn’t say leaving women in violent situations is the solution, or that only poor and ethnic people abuse their partners.
Also, yeah, angry men learning to direct their pain on others is symptomatic of our larger institutions. It’s not like they’re born with an “abuser gene.” That’s not to say there’s any moral symmetry between a man who’s learned toxic, abusive behavior and the people he hurts - there isn’t. It’s just to say we have nothing to gain from dehumanizing and brutally punishing people who commit crimes, and such people should be dealt with differently. You don’t have to get tea with them and talk it over, but to say that they’re just fundamentally angry, abusive non-humans isn’t true or helpful.
@SirCamera it's not a reduction to say they're angry it's an observation. Also, you all need to stop making everything Westernised. Domestic violence is global and even worse outside of places where feminism is not in place. People also have to take responsibility for their actions and not blame external systems all the time. That's literally the infantalism and binary caricature you point out in feminism.
@@theincrediblemahoganygoddess
You sir need a medal
@@theincrediblemahoganygoddess Two things can be true at once - people need to take personal responsibility for their actions, AND people learn behavior and internalize narratives that arise from their environment. It’s not shifting the blame, it’s looking at the society we create together and taking responsibility for it.
I’m a little confused by your comment about “Westernizing” the issue. You’re saying domestic abuse is worse outside of countries where feminism is more prevalent, but you also say that environmental factors don't matter. So which is it?
@theincrediblemahoganygoddess I think the issue with a lot of activists is that they refuse to learn about sociology. We want to effect social change but don't want to spend time learning the tools with which to do so. Acknowledging that systems affect behavior is not depriving people of accountability, however countering it does put someone in odd company. Biological essentialists also happen to make this argument. TERFs and white nationalists both claim that pointing to systems as significant cause of human behavior is an avoidance of accountability, and that certain people simply are bad as matter of ontological reality, or in other words, a matter of their birth.
I'm not saying you are either of these but if I were in your shoes I'd learn more about these structures because you can accidentally bolster other more deplorable people's unsound arguments.
Problems in America don't exist until they affect white, middle-classed suburbanites. And when those problems are finally recognized, their solution is usually crafted in a way that only addresses that community's needs and concerns, often, as you point out, to the detriment of the lower classes and minorities because it doesn't address the need and concerns of those populations.
Oh hell nah💀
As usual, "Problem? Blame white people who aren't in poverty! No way it can be more complicated... /s"
This is so false its disgusting. Just as one example look at the crack epidemic and actions taken on that front. This did not affect white people or suburbanites at all yet the black people who protested for action were greatly in favor of police crackdown which was them implemented. Stop spewing this nonsensical, conspiratorial bullshit about what causes political action. You know you're full of shut
Like how whites push crack into our Black neighborhoods, and now their white children are addicted to opioids 🤷🏾♀️
Ah yes, a classic white man bad
I really worry about people’s comprehension skills. This video is a difficult watch but it raises very valid points and things I hadn’t considered in the past.
Eh, from what I'm seeing, a large chunk of the people lashing out in this comments section are terfs (judging by their idolization of Lundy Bancroft and calling men "males") who aren't trying to listen or comprehend anything in the first place. Sadly, discussions like this draw in a lot of those types of people.
I worry that you are incapable of acknowledging dissenting opinions without immediately ascribing them to a lack of comprehension. I straight-up disagree with the concept of restorative justice, and I see the Singaporean model under Lee Kuan Yew as a better solution to solving crime across the board.
I absolutely don't understand how the fact that the justice system is very imperfect is an argument against this way of defending against violence. If the system is imperfect, it needs to be improved. But as a society, we need to have a tool through which we clearly declare what is intolerable
Because you're listening to a privileged young woman who's never lived in the real world.
@@Kelsea-im8obyou must be talking about the creator of the video
Emperor of China under the communist party was rehabilitated and reeducated about how bad things he had done and how he could do better things before allowing them to be a representative. The Nature of the system directly affects the societal behavior, and capitalism is obviously the one of the much more violent ones.
@@Kelsea-im8obIts not like you are a privileged white woman either. I am a middle eastern man in metropolitan Toronto and I suffer from at least verbal abuse on a daily basis. Everyone looks at me like I'm a subhuman or something.
@@Kelsea-im8ob i've slowly started to reduce how triggered i get by online discourse by realising that even the most watched, well-crafted creators...are just everyday people talking into a camera and are usually stupid as fuck. most people are actually unintelligent, we can just share our opinions online now.
While I like abolitionism in theory, it won’t work in practice. We can’t just let violet people, rapists, and murders roam the street with the rest of us. Some people are beyond rehabilitation too unfortunately even if our prisons had an actual rehabilitation system.
Not all abolitionists believe in total abolition. In fact, most recognize that there are some people who society is not capable of rehabilitating even if that was what our prison system was designed to do. But they would also say that the way that we currently treat those people is still inadequate.
oh and for the first point, there’s a collection of essays called “we do this ‘till we free us” i think you would like
You can let some rapers and murders out, after enough time. Do you think someone who was intoxicated and didn't stop when in the middle of a previously welcomed action should go to prison forever, like the perfect abuser who jumps a random woman for the power rush? Do you think the guy who murders his daughters abuser should go to prison forever, cause they're irredeemable in the same way serial killers are? No, you don't. Don't be ridiculous, absolutes are a terrible idea, and you already knew this. But for some reason carceral feminism is all the rage. Maybe because it's so compatible with racism, classism and the neoslavery of the prison industry?
It's not so black and white. No one wants an Anders Breivik type to ever be freed. Some actions are just so far beyond redemption.
It's all within reason.
@sewerrat7418Awh, a cute lil furry troll. You'll have to get the scorn you need to make your fur sticky from someone else, sorry.
This video explored a lot of takes that I hadn't considered at all. Although I am a person of colour who doesn't live in the united states, I feel like I ended up seeing issues there through a binary lens. I didn't consider that reporting the abuser could sometimes hurt the victim as much. For me, it's easy to think that if someone does anything I think of as wrong then they deserve to suffer or to be put in prison but for some others that's not an easy thing to do especially when their abuser might not always be the evil villain we see them as. It's strange how the law meant to protect us is filled with corruption and prejudice. It makes me wonder if every system we make will be inevitably ruined by human nature.
well said, but i'm sorry enough with this "it's human nature!" crap. human nature is to be community oriented, empathetic, and cooperative. people need to stop excusing shitty behavior, laws, or circumstances as human nature. they aren't, and the idea that they are is verifiably false.
Yeah I agree it’s super easy and normal to categorize and fall into interpreting all cases of abusive and sexual violence into evil villain and helpless innocent victim tropes and so often the situation is much more complicated and caught up in human emotions to really see what’s at play and it doesn’t help that we only ever really hear and see the worst action of the perpetrators and the worst scariest moments of the victims lives and we don’t see the context and background that leads to their situation that would allow us to understand what really should be done in specific instances bc it shouldn’t be one size fits all response when everyone’s experiences and material circumstances and emotional sides and need for healing is going to look different and unique for every crime or situation and this could allow us to give better support to individual victims who can’t or don’t want to or can’t afford the risk of pursuing legal action but still deserve healing and resources to support that endevour and help them rebuild their lives for the better and not languish in an abusive relationship out of fear or obligation or material necessity. Having faith that people can change and grow and are more than their worst actions is important I believe in terms of abolition bc not many ppl whove been abusive or violent and then punished and locked up and deemed irredeemably bad are going to have much incentive to beleive, want to or try to change and reflect and improve themselves and having empathetic and compassionate individuals who can have some faith that criminals and perpetrators can learn and heal and grow with the proper support and material needs met and can address their abusive behavior and psychological foundations and past experiences that led to who they became in a respectful and dignified manner would be infinitely more valuable in facilitating rehabilitation than continuing to treat perpetrators as disposable and irredeemable villains that don’t deserve any of the stuff we decent humans do and we’d be addressing victims of these types of crime as well by doing this approach since so many abusers were victims of abuse at some point in life and never got to dealing with it in a healthy way or simply couldn’t /didn’t have the right resources to before going down a darker more destructive path as a result oftentimes it seems
On the matter of human nature, I will refer to the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
The vast majority of humans will try to do what they see is right, the problem is their naturally limited view of the world will not let them see the consequences of their actions. I'm sure many people who support Carceral Feminism legitimately believe it's doing good, holding abusers to account and protecting vulnerable women. For whatever reason, they don't see the other side of it, and don't understand all the harm it enables.
This is why we, as a society, need to be able to take a step back and fully consider what effects or actions will cause. We need to be able to have discussions that allow all voices, regardless of background or ideology, to be heard and criticised. We need to unshackle ourselves from the trappings of "good intentions" and see if we're really doing good actions. Then we will truly be free from the reactionary thinking that paves the road to hell.
@@DumplingDoodle it is human nature there is more to human nature than what you described which includes more "evil" qualities as well. but as conscious beings we have the power to not give in to the darker parts of our nature.
@@DumplingDoodle calling it human nature is not an excuse. Those aren't the only human nature traits. We can also be naturally selfish or violent or deceptive. Human nature is just as responsible for the bad as it is for the good.
My story is a bit controversial, my mom was abusing my dad and my sister, but she thought that she was a victim in our family, ( I don’t know if she truly believed it or just wanted to believe it). Nobody in our family caused her any harm, she just wasn’t satisfied with her life. But all her friends and her new lover thought that she was abused and needed help. Everybody believed her even though, she cheated on my dad, then she just kicked him out of our house, and did a lot of other shitty things to us.
Sometimes, people just can’t see the things as they are because of prejudice and stereotypes.
I'm sorry, but I don't really feel sorry for my abusers. They could literally get hit by a bus in front of me and I would cheer the bus on. They ruined my relationships and gave me PTSD from a very young age. They enjoyed ruining my mental health for life and there is nothing they can contribute to the world or give me that can even come close being good enough in my eyes to make their existence worth it. Don't expect victims to feel sorry for them or care about their suffering. I will never feel sorry for them they intentionally physically and emotionally damaged them for no good reason. Most people never r@pe, molest, or beat those around them regardless of socioeconomic circumstances. Being in a minority group doesn't excuse their behavior in any way, shape, or form. I don't understand why they don't deserve to pay for those actions or why victims are supposed to be okay with them existing or walking among us. Victims do not owe them emotional labor. Victims shouldn't be expected to be near them ever again. This myth that "primitive" societies didn't punish these people long before prisons existed is a lie. I don't hate men, I hate the people who hurt me and I will never not hate them, but I have moved forward as much as I can.
I feel the exact same way, ty for putting this into words ♡
I'm sorry you had to go through that. But I don't think this video said you should feel sorry for your abuser. The main point was to handle that abuser in a better way than to just put them in an equal amount of violent pain. Your abuser MUST face consequences for their action, sure. But we must make sure those consequences are appropriate.
This video didn’t say any of that.
i understand, and i’m sorry if i was not clear. i want to stress that alternative modes of justice are NOT to have the victim forgive their abuser and to have the victim be some nice saint. you have every right to be hurt and angry. you have every right to never see your abuser again. what’s wrong with mediation in “restorative justice” right now is that the victim and abuser is expected to return to some sense of “normalcy”. truly transformative systems of justice will not subject the victim to that kind of awful emotional labour. but that’s why we need to work hard to figure out what those alternatives could be.
@@oliSUNvia We don't need to work hard to help abusers. We just don't. You literally think women are punching bags for violent men. go away.
But does everyone want to "heal" and does everyone have some semblance of a conscience? I don't think we can truly say that. This kind of ideology when taken too far, can endanger women and vulnerable people in the society. Preventing violent offenders from repeating their crimes does require taking away their freedom. Some people are too far gone to truly change, and predators can pretend to change and go back to offending. "Carceral feminism" is a complete abstraction, and the real issue here is capitalism. Prisons make profit and provide free labor. If prisons weren't profitable, there wouldn't be an incentive to mass incarcerate people. I think you sound quite naive here to be honest.
And carceral feminism taken too far looks like any other authoritarian state, so it's a balancing act, governance is always a balancing act... is that news?
thank you!! id be soo scared to even just walk the streets if i knew r4pists and abusers were just allowed to walk free
@@lau_ewo lmao I have some news for you
@@epileptictrees5213 yeah ik bad people are already walking the streets with me, and i am sometimes scared, but imagine if there was absolutely no way to get rid of at least some of them. that would be terrifying
that’s why i always consciously said “most” or “many” but never “all” - there are of course perpetrators who will continuously reoffend and not change. i am not advocating for the ted bundys of the world to be picking up trash as community service lol. this video is about all the people who are stuck in cycles of abuse, patriarchal hurt, and social inequity. i also respect your claims about capitalism being the only problem with prisons but i think it’s highly interesting to read into why prison abolitionists critique prison reformists for those very claims.
most abusers never stop being abusive so healing them doesn't make a difference. in fact, they don't have any motivation to seek treatment unless they are punished in such way they can't be comfortable anymore. having empathy for ppl who constantly r@pe, beat their spouses, and molest kids - disgusting. there was once a researcher in my uni giving a presentation on child r@pists who were released from jail... And he was so sorry that whose poor things were not allowed around kids anymore, so they might not be able to go to the shop which was too close to a playground. He said it right after he announced that 45% of those who were released commited the same type of crime. Nearly a half! A lot more did something not kids-related. If I had a kid, I would want any single kind of restriction to be applied to the person who is already known for hurting kids just like mine.
only prevention programms really seem to somehow help. but you cannot catch men in the street and tell them to join them because they look like future r@pists. and the pervert love of kids has no known cure at all. you either choose to control it or you don't.
also, remember we live in a democracy where the choice of the majority matters. more ppl would benefit from having better school system than a new experimental program that _maybe_ gives a % of crimials a chance to be a part of the society. imagine the news telling you that your city won't get the most used but a very old bridge in your city repaired because of a group of criminals. no government wants to spend millions of dollars on programs for the imprisoned or released abusers if they are going to help 1 person out of a thousand in an already relatively small group of ppl. We pay money to the government to see results.
many women indeed can't escape their abuders because they simply don't know HOW. Often those are women who actually got married to escape abuse and/or poverty in their homes and are laking any kind of knowledge how healthy life should look like or how to function in the society because they've always been separated from it. it's a HUGE lack of simple and neccessary education which for no sane reason is not provided to people. in schools they teach you fancy math but they don't teach you how a family looks like or how to raise a kid. how to be an independent citizen. how to open a bank account, rent a place, or find a job. they don't even teach you law so you could be aware of what rights you have in any given situation.
ps a victim has a right to report their perpetrator to the police and it is their choice whether to do it or not. it's not other people's bussiness. in fact, only about 3 to 5% of victims report s-xual abuse in western countries. also, many ppl lie about reporting abuse because they don't want to be judged by society. most recalled reason of not reporting - victims are afraid of not being believed and being judged for letting smbd do it to them... And it is actually what often happens
pps if you are unhappy with the legal system, it's a reason to think about how to make it work - not how to throw it out of the equation. like... it exists for good reasons
Government getting results haha and why would they teach us valuable skills? It’s like the economic system you were born into doesn’t give a fuck about your education, they want you to work at McD and be quiet lol
Thank you for specifying most and not all.
EXACTLY
I know she clearly hasn't read Lundy Bancroft and it's driving me nuts.
Women like you often reinforce the toxic masculinity that you complain about. Sounds like its not just a man problem.
I was in an abusive relationship (I’m a man), and I was studying psychology at the time (unfortunately my ex wouldn’t let me study…she screwed up my plans…) anyways, but the point is not about me being abused
No, my point is I’d always try to explain to her that people are complex. She’d snap, interrupt me, scream at me, gaslight me and threaten to “expose” me as an “apologist” for saying “people are complex”
She relentlessly insisted “evil is simple; it isn’t complicated. It isn’t a misunderstood person who made a mistake. If somebody does something bad, it’s because they got bored and decided being evil sounds fun. Regardless of anything, everybody who does something bad is evil for the sake of being evil. If you disagree, that means you’re okay with evil. And therefore you’re evil”
She guilt tripped me and made me hate myself for….wanting to understand the complex psychology of somebody who’s done something bad
In no world would you be evil, people can commit evil acts and as long as you’re not defending the action itself, you wouldn’t adding any harm to society. I’m glad you tried to understand the psychologically behind the acts, understanding the psychological impacts and why certain people will do certain is something I believe will impact society in a positive way. I’m very sorry you were abused, and wish you the best.
@@Xixihahahehe I’m glad you get it - but I hated myself for years after her, every time I “felt bad punishing somebody,” I’d hear her voice in my head screaming “if you don’t ENJOY punishing them, you’re evil”
We gotta talk about the overlap of carseral feminism and the proliferation of true crime content in modern society.
OMMGGGG THATS WHY TRUE CRIME IS SO POPULAR WITH WOMEN
what do you think the overlap is? i am a girl, and i have made a few friends through a shared interest of true crime, but i can’t really see how it comes from a place of carceral feminism. i just thought it was interesting to listen to how people used to get away with insane crimes before cameras and other advanced methods used to show evidence of guilt.
@@user-cs6nh9cc5t crime shows can be enjoyed in good faith but they perpetuate the idea that women are victims of endless random crime, that the rapist in the bushes could jump out at any time. It makes middle class white women unreasonably paranoid (a base level should be expected) and quick to go after men, most notably black men. If you watch the series in my other reply it goes farther in depth and covers a different show each episode.
@@kade6776 huh? I've watched a lot of true crime some time ago. But there were both men and women attacked and it never really made me paranoid of some scary black men. (But I'm a guy, so idk). My sister was kinda into it too thought, but she doesn't seem to be paranoid after watching true crime. No idea about her but for me I just see this all as some exceptional rare cases. Because most of them are. I only watched really outlandish stuff.
No we don’t. No feminist watches sensationalized VAW you stupid redditor.
I've always struggled with this.
In my head, there's a difference between sustaining someone's safety and punishment, which is to say, while it might be warranted to put someone away, it doesn't mean that prisons (certainly not as they exist now) are good.
There's a direct line between separation and incarceration in most cases, and there... *probably* doesn't need to be, I'll say.
I'm a simple man, I see an oliSUNvia video, I click immediately
Fr, the ability I acquire when watching these videos to be able to explain to my racist grandparents why they are wrong is so nice.
Right? I drop a like, and continue watching
Im a simple man, I see glass, I eat
@@trashpanda623 I hope you're successful, cause I won't lie that seems like a battle not worth the time to fight. Good luck though
@@trashpanda623
Why are you assuming your grandparents are racist?
I was in an abusive relationship for 8 years. It's going to court next year, a whole 3 years from his arrest. Other people have now come forward against him. The justice system is slow and tbh feels restrictive. For a long time I felt there were a lot of things holding me back from speaking out, including knowing that he was a complicated person who also had good qualities. But, he had several years and countless chances to change. I came to a point where suicide felt like my only option, and that leaving would risk my life, but at that point I had no choice. Him not being held accountable would make me hate the world even more, and I know from experience that abusers not being held accountable and being called a liar, is also a good way to make someone feel they have no choice but to end their life. I'd like to think that this going to court, and whatever "justice" is served will make him accountable, admit what he did, own up and understand the extend of his damage...but I also know he's impressionable and is likely going to prison surrounded by other people who commit violent crimes.... at the end of the day, even if the system isn't perfect, the system will have acknowledged what he did, he can't hurt me or anyone else (for the time he's held at least), and I will know he's got time to consider the gravity of what he's done.
It's frustrating that with the current system, admitting what you did and owning up to it is actually against people's best interest. Pleading guilty is an option, but mostly people are forced to deny as much as possible to try to get out of a life behind bars.
I hope you get the closure and justice you deserve.
Yes I am sure you went through abuse....in your head 😒
@E V I don't know what you're going through, but that is a disgusting comment. Unwarranted, not relevant to the topic at hand, and should make you rethink your moral compass/ability.
@@EV-EV-EVseek help
@@EV-EV-EVWhy don't you go touch some grass instead of being a asshole to people on internet for a change?
I don’t think she’s criticising any actions people take within the system, she is criticising the system itself.
Bell hooks and that book (the will to change) are insanely good. The way to fight against the systems that be is with acknowledgement and love. Not hate
Bell Hooks was life changing for me
this video really helped me understand how difficult it is for some people to even get out from these situations without reprecussions. especially because of how much my mom was affected by it, and how she was (in my eyes) very compliant with my dad being abusive towards me and also her, it helped me to see it in a different light, this video means a lot
I don't see why can't reconciliation and prison can't go hand in hand. The lack of funding from the government shouldn't change your ideal solution. the system is wrong, not the idea
I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting justice. If a chick gets raped, nothing wrong with wanting to stick that fucker in prison for years. I think we need to address non violent drug offenders before we address actual criminals. We should prioritize getting people in jail for drug possession out, as these people don’t deserve to be in prison in my opinion. Rapists deserve to be in prison. Let’s first get the people who don’t deserve to be there out before we start thinking how we are gonna rehab the rapist into being a normal member of society.
Exactly.
I love your videos- 43yo black woman from Bermuda.
Well done Sis!🎯💯💗
And I am an avid bell hooks enthusiast, anti- carceral feminist, AND an abuse survivor at the expense of men, AND a lover of men- I felt that when you talked about your anxiety talking about men. It was really since engaging with the writing of bell hooks that I got the dialectic dance of patriarchy- irrespective of gender.
Nailed this.
And I have personally had to make a decision to not press charges for an ex abusive partner who ALSO suffered abuse. There is no other structure in place to seek a kind of justice that does not destroy lives that are already destroyed. I arrived at this decision through reading and critical analysis- and learning to see others with the complexity that our shared humanity demands.
I agree in theory, but honestly I question how much people can be rehabilitated in general.
its better to try to rehabilitate someone than not at all. In America there is no rehabilitation and that needs to change
@@van7915 true. But in the end, I don't think we should count on rehabilitation to solve problems like abuse and violence. Sone people will always need to be kept away from society to prevent them from doing more harn.
@@jacquelinealbin7712 they don't wanna hear that tho lmao, the truth is not everyone can be rehabilitated, the prison system largely needs to change, majority of people incarcerated in the US don't deserve the harsh prisons and lack of rights, but for cases with absolute proof of monsters who have history of commiting heinous crimes against humanity and lack empathy is their answer simply "rehabilitate!! Uwu" ??
@@catripl5871 EXACTLY LIKE HOW ARE PEOPLE SAYING THAT RAPISTS AND PEDOPHILES CAN BE REHABILITATED THIS IS CRAZY LIKE DO THEY UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH MALICE IT TAKES TO EVEN DO THAT BRO
@@vidhipatel6488 They can be rehabilitated, there is evidence that they can. "It takes so much malice tho" isn't a convincing argument.
This video is confusing to me. From what I understand. She is advocating for 1) changes to be made in society that stop patriarchal beliefs of power exertion from being passed onto younger generations and 2) a change in the justice system from "punishments" to "consequences" by taking the mechanism that allowed the perpetrator to commit the crime away from the perpetrator.
The professor was a good example of this: he used his power as a professor to exert his will. His will was exerted unlawfully, so they took away his power as a professor.
How could this work in immediacy though? Using a real case from near me, a man got on the subway, assaulted a woman, raped her twice and filmed it. What is the anti-carceral feminist response to this. How should this be treated?
Thank you I liked the video otherwise very well researched and presented.
Well, neutering would work
this is a video that took me until the end to start agreeing. i watched my grandmother work at a women’s crisis shelter for years, and saw how putting abusers in jail sometimes does a LOT of good. but i also understand that i didn’t see all of the women that never even made it to the shelter. you have me interested in this topic :)
Jailing abusers usually makes them more violent. Prisoners call prison school, cause they learn how to be a better criminal. You go in a dumb street thug, and come out a gladiator. They literally call mens prison age 18-25 gladiator school. The only way that system would decrease violence is if they locked everyone up for the rest of their lives, or killed them.
How does it do good?
Well then we work hard to help THEM not abusers! God people are so dumb. There are literal psychopaths and sociopaths out there! Their goal is to manipulate.
@@datcatsavedme7071no one knows. it just makes ppl not in the situation feel better because they get to be self-righteous, and helps victims by pushing them further into their trauma by allowing them to constantly ruminate over the punishment of their abuser
@@Lilah1848psychopaths and sociopaths are also just ppl homie!! personality disorders don’t require a different brain, just a traumatic upbringing. it’s also the case that ppl with aspd are not all criminals
Wish people would stop enforcing this buzzword term when women within political movements cakl out perpetrators of gender or sexual violence. One can oppose the carceral system on a bigger scale while still prioritizing safety for survivors on an immediate basis and acknowledge that while we need to work socially against the prison system, if it's possible to have a rapist or domestic abuser face legal consequences and safety meassures, we are going to take it.
Yes, you can support prison reform and acknowledge that it is still the best option available in many situations. When did olivia say that we shouldn't use what's available now? It seems like you're making a straw-man, because I'm almost 100% certain she specifically said that in the video.
Olivia literally says that in the end of the video. She also cites Angela Davis, who was the first to coin the 'and/or' temporary solution. You carceral gals really do love to decree and damn.
@@Pistolita221 If she supports using the system we have now, how is she any different than the "carceral feminists" she calls out in the video? This whole thing is an exercise in virtue signalling: building up a false image of the carceral feminist and tearing that image down with thoughtless analysis even though she doesn't actually disagree with prison being a part of the justice system. The point is to show other fake progressives that she isn't afraid to call out the "bad" feminists.
An informed feminist wouldn't dismiss battered women syndrome, a well-documented psych condition, as a stereotype that demeans women.
An informed feminist would know that the majority of prostitutes in the US are trafficked minors so no shit, they're dependent on the pimps but that doesn't mean they're better off being sexually exploited. The video is full of nonsense arguments like these. Nothing wrong with being uninformed but don't run your mouth if you don't know.
Not for nothing the term "carceral feminist" is a very conveninent term for some abusive male anarchist to throw at his victims the second they voice their discomfort with him.
This is such a sensitive topic, but you covered everything so well. Thanks for all your research and starting a conversation about taking a different approach.
another great video 🥳 love how she's slowly covering so many different aspects of feminism in her essays. keep up the good work!
The legal stuff can be brutal financially even in civil matters regarding dv like divorce.
My mother has been going through a divorce from my abusive step father for like 5 years now. She has a court date every few months but my step father keeps skipping them from which he garners no repercussions. Every time a court date comes up, it puts her in danger. My step father will threaten her, break into the house and move items around, steal one shoe in a pair, etc. just to make her think she is going crazy. He slashed all of their tires and burned threats into her lawn with his welding torch. He would kill her if he got the chance.
But so long as my mother isn’t home, nothing can be done because it is still technically half his house. Which hasn’t been settled because he won’t go to the court dates. And my mom can’t afford to move until they sell the house because she is solely paying for that mortgage plus legal fees, plus my sister still lives there.
Your story is why I'm a proud carceral feminist, because kids get hurt by psychos too.
I made a video why I imprisoned my abuser despite being a prison abolitionist, which tries to debunk the common pro-prison question: “well what about the predators?” Very excited to listen to your take on this! ❤
You recognize your status as a privileged white woman on how easy it was to get an abuser locked up. Your abuser also abused a disabled male child would not have had the same experience getting the abuser locked up.
It's a painful truth, but inequality can hurt both sides. Advocating for male victims of abuse means that abusers can be locked up sooner and less likely to attack more females as well.
Or in this video - advocating for men, women, and non-binaries to not get deported or evicted, and to be better off financially would allow women in these situations to be more comfortable with reporting abuse.
In the US - Advocating for men to have access to free vasectomies and condoms will spare women the side effects of tubal litigation and birth control pills which are free under the ACA.
Its such a good video i have subscribed
@@kidawesomeness123 thanks so much ☺️
@Katherin
How sheltered is the intellectual segment of society when they’re coming up with ridiculous ideas like abolishing prisons?
@@johnmacrae2006 Instead of dismissing the idea without even giving it a thought, how about you actually go and look at what this "intellectual segment of society" is actually saying and what their arguments are, then make up your mind?
I don’t understand, is the argument that we shouldn’t punish abusers??
No it's that we should try to be empathetic towards all causers of crime and try to get to the root of the issue and from there only can we find a real solution to preventing these crimes on a wider margin.Revenge doesn't help anybody even if it gives u momentary relief you will not find peace and abusers will still persist
okay, but it's literally not revenge it's putting them away @@realhillkell
@@realhillkellThe root of the issue most of the time is gonna be genes dawg. Sociopathy, psychopathy, as well as impulsiveness are largely hereditary, and many other traits like this are partially influenced by genetics. Even with people who aren’t irredeemable, many people will be far more difficult to “reform” than others, because not everyone is equal.
@@realhillkell some people (ahem men i know) are narcissistic and evil to the core themselves. doesn't matter if they grew up in a toxic environment, what matter's is their actions and how they themselves perpetrate abuse on innocent people. instead of showing these poor victims sympathy, you think it's better to sympathise with the abuser and give him reform? disgusting. some abusers won't leave you alone or change. unless they are in jail, their psychotic behaviour continues and from personal experience i know of abusers who will quite literally hunt down and kill their victims who escape.
@@queencccard just because you hate men doesn't make your views real
Can i just take a moment to say your videos have been not only very educational and informative but also been really helpful in my life. I won’t really spout with what here, but just know your videos have helped personally helped me tremendously in my struggles.
this video was insane 😭
Honestly this is a lot of what I've been thinking since listening to the podcast episode for You're Wrong About "Sex Offenders". It sounds radical, but a good way I saw this change explained was it focuses more on the victim and their needs, as most attention and resources are devoted to the "criminal".
Damn, I never heard such a nuanced perspective on this. Way more complicated than I'd previously thought. Great video.
I freaking love discussions like this. I’ve been itching to have it!!
I randomly found this video but thank you. I had two incidences of SA years ago that I wish I had this video at that time.
I was forced by my partner to report the first incident. I was privileged that it didn’t risk my living situation, but it wound up impacting my job and relationships significantly. The man found a loophole in the college’s conditions and got out of punishment too. It felt like I faced all that retaliation for nothing.
After that first experience I couldn’t mentally get myself to report the second. I was so afraid of it happening all over again.
I had people telling me I did the wrong thing and I should have stopped them from potentially hurting others. Due to that, I only discussed this matter in therapy from then-on.
I’ve often struggled with whether or not I made the moral choice. I still don’t know, but I can’t un-make those decisions. It was refreshing to have words to express why I was afraid to make those choices.
Apologies for the emotional dump, I’m just happy something has finally let me accept there was a lot of moral complexity behind my decisions. Your words helped more than I can express, thank you.
I still feel like there should have been punishment for the harm, I hate that some people are put into these situations, but I’m lucky it’s one that didn’t have long-term or permanent negative effects on my life.
2:29 Actually after feminism got so mainstream I hear guys more often than ever to say that now they can hit women or hit them just as hard as they would hit men, since women are now equal to men
is that a crime? I mean a crime is a crime, you are still getting hit lmao
Its just like how women can still hit men with no repercussion... A crime is a crime both ways
Anyone who starts a fight deserves to be hit back. Women often try to fall back on "dont hit a girl" after throwing the first punch and this was always bs
the reason this became a trend is because women used the idea that men shouldnt fight as an excuse to physically assault knowing fully well they would get support from the public, its also one of the reasons DV agaisnt men isnt taken serious, the literally model which mind you was made by a feminist frames men as the perps and women as the victims, and since women were literally fighting the chivarly , you cant expect men to just take physically because you are weaker any more, the fact that i saw this play out today and it lead to the death of a guy because people assumed he was the perp and they did nothing to stop the women attacking him, even thou he was being robbed at gun and tried to fight back, if there wasnt a camera recording the incident , every one would simply assume he was the perp because you know man shouldnt hit woman in any scenerio or man bad
@@ragzeyy that's not true at all. My mom got arrested after my dad called the cops on her after an altercation between them. She had court mandated anger management because of previous issues.
I think this video is a very interesting take on things and opened my eyes to certain aspects of abuse I hadn’t thought about before, however, the way you described things feels very “apologist-ey” to me. While I think the idea of rehabilitation for abusers is nice, it truly overshadows the recovery of the victims, and if put into practice, might even cause the “slap on the wrist” sentence for abusers to become worse. It makes them seem like this helpless little man who was was never taught how to be respectful to women. And even if that is true, it’s still not justification for their actions and with or without rehabilitation, the victim had still been scarred. A reason is not an excuse.
Reminds a lot of the South Korea laws of protecting criminal teenagers and never hold them accountable for their actions, even torture and murder yes.
It only reasulted in more teenage crimes, as many of them realized their actions wouldn't lead them to any kind of punishment, and the government literally cares more about their future rather then the victim's future, so they don't give a shit anymore.
@@CollegeKid666literally reactionary rhetoric lmao
Thank you for mentioning indigenous women! many people brush by it i’ve lost 2 cousins to murder and many other family members to the criminal justice system. people don’t understand why many WOC don’t press charges again male family members or partners of same race seeing you talk about it really touches my heart as an indigenous women that never pressed charges
Interesting video Olivia, but I am not as optimistic about the ability of every perpetrator to “heal” and reform themselves
i agree, like framing “violence” as the true evil here instead of proper justice being done irks me the wrong way. nobody thinks the prison system is the “best” solution to deal with this, but I also think that once you choose to do such horrific acts to people such as abuse, sexual assault and rape you kind of forfeit a bit of your personhood through the hurt you have created. I think that it’s a bit too utopian to assume people can “heal” enough to be let back into society once they do something like that, and if we already have problems within our much simplier system of retributive punishment, there’s nearly no way such a complex system of rehabilitative justice can ever possibly gurantee that these horrible people are truly safe to be around.
@@drininix yeah, you've summed up my qualms pretty well. I have a friend who is for abolishing the prison system, and when I asked him whether he would, for example, feel comfortable living next to ted bundy, he said "yes if he was rehabilitated." I...think that's very naive. I do think that committing violent crimes causes you to lose your right to be in regular society because you have proved yourself dangerous to others
@@emilyisreading_rehabilitation is a fable and their entire argument relies on it. its never going to happen and be replicable. we cant even cure social media induced attention deficits.
Its basically the "I can fix him!" line of thinking. Is so exausting...
@@sinew1000 It's not a fable. It works in several countries and there is good evidence to support it works when properly invested in.
I love this video! Not only is it an interesting and important video, you explain terms in such easy ways, and all of your videos givee me a new perspective. Thank you
your videos are so nuanced and intelligent. I hope this video gets to a lot of people. thank you
So amazing to see someone diving into this topic. It's heavy and difficult and you handle it with grace ❤
god please dont let rape victims come across this video
for real
fr i don't understand how people can support such views, i'm done and disgusted
@@meimicasapls watch the video over and re think what she’s saying and why
@@froggy_moom2134 it’s hard to care when women have been forced to be domestic slaves and rape slaves for THOUSANDS of years and men still to this day don’t get held accountable or punished for raping women. I literally don’t care when women have not had justice for thousands of years and this video’s rhetoric is just another example of how women are expected to act like saints who are ultra compassionate and forgiving to all men’s wrongs.
I was sa’d as a child and agree with the points this video is making, is it right to stay in a violent situation? No. That’s not what she’s saying though, and punitive action only makes things worse, it makes people more violent, more angry and allows femicide to continue
I am Japanese, I was born there and I live there, many police including the ones who “handled” my case ignored the assault and rape. We can’t trust cops alone to solely execute justice, and need the power to be put into the hands of the victim, we need to be separated from our abusers, and they need to be forced into help.
I think it’s detractive to torture these people for the sole point of justice and satisfaction of the victim, because even if it does give some catharsis it only gives more power to those who would permit this abuse in the first place, and make us more victimized
Olivia....thank you for this. This is an excellent presentation on such a complex issue which has a lot of nuance that comes with it. I think everything that needs to be said about Carceral feminism had been said in this video 👍. I've had discussions about this with people in the past and have been misinterpreted as one who simply sympathises with "abusers" and am therefore a part of the problem but these issues presented are what I'm talking about when I say the simple incarnation and/or general villanizing of men as potential offenders or those accused without acknowledging and properly analysing the context of these cases is a disservice to those involved. This is real, I've seen these cases play out around me growing up, it's crazy to say the least. Anyway, I wanna keep this short lol, THANK YOU again Liv, I really love your videos and respect the work you put into them, keep em coming fam, sending love❤.
I live in a mostly white country where when you go to the police officer and report to them that you were r@ped, they will laugh at your face and say that they would r@pe you as well if they had seen you in such an outfit. I have heard a lot of women saying that it is better to live with an abuser than report him to the police because the police will start asking you what you've done to provoke him, and people around will call you names. So, I would like to live in a country where people who beat somebody who they live with are arrestet as fast as people who beat strangers on the streets. I would like to live in a country where I can be almost sure that I do not go pass domestic abusers and r@pists on my way home.
Maybe I didn't catch the message of the video right, but punishing abusers less and "let them change" is the worst thing to do to solve the problem you've mensioned. Those people don't change. They will just think that they now have a permission to do more evil because they were not punished the first time. Abuse and sexual crimes are not like others, people commit them not because they were in danger or had nothing to eat. They commit such crimes because of their nature and because they were not stopped in a right time. To solve the problem the government should just build a normal functioning social protection system for victims who were left alone after reporting their abusers, and not only for them, but for everyone who struggles in their lives. America is a wealthy country, I'm sure they have money for that, maybe they just need to hear more thoughts like this from activists and their citizens, and not spend their resourses on meaningless populist actions to just show off. In fact, all of the USA's problems are rooted in the fact that it is a country for winners, for successors, and not for average people. I'm sure, this problem is very broad, but only by solving it you all will achieve the justice you fight for that much
P.S. one more thing is that feminists in my country actually talk a lot about how men suffer because of the patriarchy, and that's mostly because a lot of men here hate feminists and would never even let them speak if women had not talked about how this movement can also benefit men. Such an irony. So I think western feminists talking about that less maybe isn't a good thing, but is an indicator of how actually good your men and society in general are
P.P.S. sorry for my English, it's late at night and I just have too much toughts to fall asleep
There are no good men, western or otherwise, stop being a pick me cringe
@@catripl5871 cool
This. They have to know it is wrong at some point. It's not a crime in defense or stress it's a crime of wanting control. In the US the average person should have a say but we don't and that's why the system it so corrupt.
@@catripl5871 thats so racist
I agree, the system of highly punishing abusers is a LOT better than what you describe.
However, we like to strive for perfection, and this system isn't perfect. Again, I agree that it's a thousand times better than your one, and it works well enough.
I guess it's the idea that since I live in this system I can see the flaws and I actually care about them, compared to someone who has it a 1000 times worse?
Using America as an example because more local ones are rarely known, modern day US is a 1000 times better than slavery. However, there's still issues with racism that are lesser than slavery, but people still want to fix them?
Incredible video. Thank you for talking at length about every topic you covered.
I've only watched two of your videos but I love how you've really shifted my perspective on topics i thought i had made my mind up on. If anything your videos have really helped to open my mind to the different ways in which we can exist on this planet in a way where all of us can thrive.
"I can both care for men, and be angry at them". I've tried explaining this to so many people with little success. Some just want to hate and punish us. Thanks for giving me a better way to phrase this :)
Yeah, most modern ideologies are just someone else's revenge.
Uh yeah, the fact your isolating men as the source of evil is the problem. You can't just hate some group of people for some immutable characteristic and think people should understand what you're saying. "I care for women, but I'm angry at them". Is that not some red pill/incel shit?
@@triplea7536 just look at the reason why women are usually angry at men and the reason why men are usually angry at women. i know that every individual has their own experiences too but based on the fact that women usually have their distrust for men from genuinely horrifying situations and then the mens reason is that they didnt get to go out with a woman shows you the reason why so many women share this sentiment
Can a man then hate and care for women, as well?
@@angelelelelalalalalelae Wrong, most men distrust women because of things like divorce grape.
I see a lot of bad faith responses that misrepresent the points and the intention of this video.
To be clear, this video DOES NOT say or imply:
• victims should coddle or coo over abusers
• therapy alone is sufficient for rehabilitating abusers
• abusers should face zero consequences for their crimes
• victims must be gracious and extend extra emotional labor to empathize with their abusers
• because abusers are also victims of patriarchy, their actions have moral symmetry with the people they hurt
• poor and non-white people are uniquely prone to DV
• intervention by cops in a DV situation should always be discouraged
Say that again for the people in the back!
Thank you for covering this topic, its important to address the complexity of crime and its consequences in justice. Indeed brings up conflicting feelings but being uncomfortable and speaking awareness is the beginning of change!
I admire you for your work and the way you bring the subjects in just a pure way and it's so easy to understand.
I feel like you just nailed it in this video. It is in the interest of the defenders of the status quo and the current system that the debate surrounding social issues doesn't address the real root of the problem, which is the system itself. Looking at arrests as a solution in the long term, probably just worsen this problem. But I found it amazing how you not only just criticize this positioning, but also reveal that it is possible to have a dual position, and just because punishment doesn't solve this issue, it doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong to do it. Amazing video, as always.
i love your videos so much olivia, it is so great to hear someone on UA-cam with this take, keep it up! you're becoming one of my favorite youtubers
i can't believe you used a clip from "Pretend that you love me" omg that scene is burnt in to my skull, awesome video by the way i just felt the emotions of that movie and needed to comment
thank you for making this video! this needs to be talked about
Your essays are so packed with thoughtful research and profound perspectives, I am often watching/listening to them twice just to make sure I don't miss anything.
Thank you for raising the bar
I'm writing a novel about domestic violence and this gave me something additional to consider. Thanks.
I used to just say, "go to jail, go to jail," but have been since changing my rhetoric to, "seek therapy," but even that is too simple, oft unobtainable. I believe there needs to be punishment for abuse but also a huge change in our policies. Some abusers can be helped and changed for the better, but our jail/prison system isn't concerned with that despite what officials may say about rehabilitation programs (yeah...like religious indoctrination, that'll solve the problems!!!! /s). There's just so much that hasn't changed because of the aggressive capitalistic stance in our leaders. Victims and their abusers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Would you tell that to a domestic abuser who attempted murdered or murder someone though.
What if the abuser is a stalker? How can we make the victim feel safe. You do know that the unsafest time for a victim of abuse is when they leave. And what if they have children together. It is not as simple as going through therapy. Abusers have to want to change. What if they don't want to change? Do you get it?
@@lisah8438 I want to be clear that nothing I'm saying is meant to tell victims that they're unimportant. We're talking about victims who feel stuck because of what's been discussed in the video.
This video really opened my eyes. At the beginning I was skeptical of what your argument was gonna be but it was presented really well. 100/100 A+
wow. this video really changed my perspective on something really big in my life. i can't say thank you enough for this
all of your essays are just so well put together , and your voice is so calming , its hard to critcally think and even attempt to have a differing view 😭
Love how you explain and give complex issues the attention they deserve, also showing and explaining situations that are usually ignored or not even considered.
THIS IS SO IMPORTANT THANK YOU FOR MAKING A VIDEO ABOUT THIS
I'm glad you brought this subject. I don't think comments under a UA-cam video are a good way to debate on the topic, but there sure are some very relevant ones (and the video sure is relevant, of course).
Women need family and community not deranged males.
Men (or “males”, LOL) will inevitably be part of that community.
@@Markunatornot the deranged ones
@@user-vo3zh7gr2zyeah the police is clearly the most deranged men out there : they go around shooting and beating pepole up ...
They are not the good guys
Stop being hoes
Stop picking violent men
@@user-vo3zh7gr2zyes they will
"When we see others as the enemy, we risk becoming what we hate. [...] Our humanity depends upon recognizing the humanity of others." This is a quote from Desmond Tutu that he made in connection with apartheid in South Afrika. Though i think this applies almost everywhere where some kind of conflict is present. It's the same here. When people (woman) see men in general as the villain, they risk becoming misandrist (which is equivalent with misogyny).
Nothing is Black and White.
As counterintuitive as it sounds, i think men shouldn't be left out of feminism. Patriarchy, or rather the gender roles the society employs, shapes men to be like that. Additionally there are other difficulties men face due to that. As you mentioned in the video once, mens emotions aren't recognized. The suicide rate of men is 3 to 4 times higher than the rate of woman. Just to name one example of the problems men face due to gender roles.
I don't want to downplay the difficulties woman face. But i do want that the problems men face are recognized, too.
The feminist movement fights for woman having the chance to do things that are considered to be for men (positions of power, "masculine" workplaces (stem and such), trousers). Now we need men to have the chance to do things that are considered to be for woman (childcare, 'emotional' jobs (that entail caring for example), skirts) (seriously, tho, i really just want to wear skirts without people looking weird at me or judging me).
And this is beneficial for woman as well. First off, this may help to make men less violent. And while the number of woman in positions of power and higher paying jobs (with more working hours) are increasing, the number of chores and childcare they do at home isn't decreasing as much. So woman work more overall. If men are doing more of these things (that are considered feminine), it would take some work off woman and make the overall distribution equal.
Never even thought about this a little bit. Thank you for what you do
This opened my eyes to a lot of ideas I had about the topics mentioned, especially the nuances of my violent grandfather. I appreciate your work
Another banger, thanks for educating us on something important
love love love this video. very informative and wonderfully put, an enlightening video as always. i (as do many others it seems) appreciate you bringing such important subjects to light, and will to change is an excellent book to bring up! would love to read some of your favourite books if you were to put together a list x
great content Olivia. Thanks so much for bringing these concepts together. Excellent essay
i have to admit that hearing your opening statements in this video had me raising an eyebrow, despite how much i love all of your videos. but by the end of part 1 of the video ( 14:45 ) im starting to understand where you’re coming from. this video is giving me a LOT to think about.
Somebody think of the rapists 😢
?
did you sit through the video or just see the thumbnail and comment???
@@froggy_moom2134 i'll ask you the same thing...
@@zamorasansar8837can I ask how you interpreted the video because I’m a bit confused by your reply
This was incredibly insightful, I never even thought about this from this perspective. It is difficult to NOT be a misandrist and it’s difficult to not immediately want to punish all the I see bad. It’s controversial to say that specifically THIS topic isn’t black and white.
I feel like that this topic has inherently to do with the functions of the legal system itself and there is a link to complexity and informations theory. Because the selection of information in society in regards to the legal system and this topic seems overall pretty black and white, which can only be a mechanism to reduce social complexity.
I'd find it nice if she would do a video about all this. The most important autor here is Niklas Luhmann(who is also my pic on YT). Which all makes sense, since trust as a societal phenomenon and the legal system are very close linked sociologically, and one of the early books of Luhmann was "Trust - A mechanism of the reduction of social complexity".
It’s not hard to not be misandrist.
It’s also difficult to not be a misogynist when we see people like you
@@butterflymage5623 come on dude don't be a dick. In our society, there is a certain pressure to follow certain tendencies for both men and women, when you're brought up to be a certain way it's not like you have already existing knowledge of all other ways of living. It's easy to say that if you've personally been brought up not to be a misandrist but I get where the OP is coming from.
@@dudeman5303 I don’t see how this statement is me being a dick.
I love the way u question everything. Very interesting video, thank you again
One of your best videos. I haven't seen all of them but this seems like much more of your own thoughts