Ep147: New Theory on Book of Mormon Origin May Be A Game Changer
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- On this highly anticipated episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon are joined by Lars Nielsen to discuss his ground breaking new book, "How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass: The Second Greatest Show on Earth."
Lars, along with his brother David Nielsen, was responsible for exposing Ensign Peak's vast horde of tithing money that was not being used for charitable purposes. In his new book, Lars explores brand new narratives that provide never before considered explanations for the origin of the Book of Mormon.
I encourage you to check out Lars' website prior to watching the episode. I especially encourage you to read the abstract which can be found under the tab, "Back Cover."
Links to Info:
www.howthebook...
Book website: www.HowTheBookOfMormonCameToPass.com
Amazon: www.amazon.com...
Email: Lars@HowTheBookOfMormonCameToPass.com
Facebook: HowItCameToPass
UA-cam: / @howitcametopass
This new information is exploding on the scene as we speak and Mormonish can't wait to present many of the details to you in this mind-blowing episode.
The book is available for purchase in most formats and on Amazon.
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FYI - David O McKay did NOT trust BYU with his personal papers so he donated them to the University of Utah Special Collections. McKay was following the footsteps of his famous niece, Fawn Brody, whose papers are in the same collection.
Be sure to highlight the supposedly documented proof that David O. McKay did not trust BYU with his personal papers. Wow, are you seriously so narrow minded?
The morning of Sunday, March 3, 2024 Mormonish has 4,994 subscribers and John Dehlin invites THRIVE St George attendees to subscribe and seconds later, 5K is reached. A little over 6 weeks later Mormonish reaches the 6K subscribers level. Awesome and deserved, Rebecca and Landon!! 😍😍
Some comments including Lars responses are disappearing. Mormonish does not moderate comments so this appears to be UA-cam issue. We apologize for the inconvenience.
@landon. Oh! Thank you for
explanation. Tho't you wanted me to shut up and go away. 😻.
It's happening a lot in last 3 weeks on 2-3 ex-mo pods.
I'm not saying it's aliens.....
@@randyjordan5521 somebody had to not say it...
👽 who this guy? Couldn’t be! look how friendly he looks!
@@randyjordan5521 That would only apply to Scientology, wouldn't it?
Landon, you’re so quick and bring humor and fun into all the podcasts.Another great listen
I’ve spent many years studying Western Esotericism, and the work of Kircher sounds lock step with the theological world view and writings of prominent 17th & 18th French Esotericists. Many of which became foundational documents for the Masons and Rosicrucians. I don’t personally have the resources to do this, but I’d love to dive down the rabbit hole of how Kircher overlapped with these other historical figures. The time, place, and specificity of subject makes it highly likely they were part of the same intellectual circles.
Researching if/how Kircher had a connection or influence on early Masonry might provide an even richer layer to the “Mormon Story.” Especially considering Joseph Smith’s relationship with Masonry and 19th century Esoteric practices and beliefs.
I hope the book strikes the right balance of exposing people to these themes (Hermeticism, Kabbalah, Royal Arch Masonry, etc.) without being a distraction to the mainline story. Like you, I am fascinating with how Kircher's views on these topics might have gotten in the minds of the candidate authors of The Book of Mormon. You've rad Cheryl Bruno, right?
@@HowItCameToPass No I haven’t, but if you provide a recommendation I will.
I left the church some 20 years back, but my parents are still extremely devout. I’m their only daughter. While they have a hard time understanding me, I have to commend the work they’ve done in accepting and loving their gay, childless daughter.
I know these podcasts and “news bites” aren’t things they’re being exposed to as two temple workers in CT. But, I want to do my part to understand them better too. Part of that involves learning how the church has evolved over the last 20 years and following current events.
My studies in esotericism come from sources independent from Mormonism, as I began my studies some 5 years after leaving the church.
Recently, I’ve become more interested in the religious/esoteric environment Joesph Smith grew up in and how living in such a wildly unique time/place shaped him. The overlap between the burnt over district and seance craze of the mid 1800’s in the northeast is criminally understudied and under taught.
With that being said, I thought the trigger warning on your book cover was an extremely thoughtful and compassionate way to approach the topic. I know your book is something I’d never recommend to my parents. They’re old and happy, and being correct isn’t the same as doing the right thing. Academics aren’t always humble, but hubris isn’t compatible with the scientific method either, so…
I’m just super impressed with the groundwork you’ve laid. And I’m looking forward to seeing where the path leads as you have the time and resources to wander further into the weeds.
One area I’d love to see more scholarly research into is what early Mormonism drew from Hermetic Kabbalah. It’s such a vast and intense area of study, I imagine you’d have to partner with academics outside of Mormonism to put those puzzle pieces together. Over the last 5 years or so, there’s been a growing network of credentialed academics on UA-cam with podcasts discussing both esotericism and 2nd temple Judaism/the historical Jesus. I suppose you could say my interest here is an extension of following that.
Anyhow, the proposals you’ve put forth are fantastic and I look forward to following your work. ☺️
Great comment. Im right there with you!
agree totally...and to bring it to modernity, rosicrucians and freemasons who are also Christian have bolstered their faith for many years because of knowing the universality of the experience of "Christian Mystics" . There is an admission that Christ did not teach in a vacuum of only Judaism or at least the writings about Christ did not. There also is a tradition that the legend and lore surrounding sacred works is not historical and academic but instead is encoded spiritual information couched in metaphor and allegory....and even explained as such. This became taboo Post Constantine to say out loud and especially during protestant reformation of which "Mormonism" sprang. There is equally important tradition in Judaism today with the Zohar and its lore. So Mormonism appears to carry that type of tradition and flop it straight into protestantism.
@@peterhook2258 I’ve long said that while Mormons theirselves would never say this, the denomination is very much a mystic/esoteric branch of Christianity.
One of my favorite (and historically very possible) theories about Paul is he was a practitioner of Merkavah Mysticism. (I might have spelled that very wrong…lol.) And his visitation of the risen Christ came to him during a ritualized, ecstatic mystic state.
It’s a purely speculative theory at this point. But due to time, place, accessibility, and his level of education it’s extremely plausible possibility. And would definitely explain his radical “rebirth” experience, taking on Paul as his new name and shifting his entire life’s purpose to evangelizing Jesus’s words.
I’d love to see some kind of evidence to back up the speculation one day, because it’s such a cool way to think about how Christianity evolved.
Rebecca. You look wonderful.
I love your kindness for believers. I am not one, but you are so kind to issue a warning. Bravo!
@Lauriebellexec Thank you for saying that. To be honest, I learned that the hard way. I wasn't very sensitive and aware when I had my faith crisis in 2009 and 2010. I went through my anger phase, denial phase, etc. I still feel hurt by active Mormons sometimes, but it doesn't evoke such a strong reaction anymore. I don't know whether any of my children will stay in the church after they are emancipated. But I choose them over any religious system.
Me too , they know what they believe for sure! My worries are about people who don’t know Mormonism. ( I was raised LDS, now I’m free from they’re chains!)
As for the dancing for a decapitation story in the BoM, I'm not saying that it did or did not come into the Bom by way of Rigdon. I'll have to delve into the subject matter more in order to form an opinion on that. But it's easily explainable without Rigdon. It's just a rip-off of the New Testament dancing-for-a-decapitation story. The identification of the dancers even rhymes: Daughter of Herod meet Daughter of Jared. Who can get a decapitation faster with their enticing dancing? I can't remember if a platter was involved in both stories. But the main ideas are in both. I guess what would have been on the platter was a bit different. Daughter of Herod got the head of a guy who dissed her mother and otherwise enjoyed pushing people underwater down at the river. Daughter of Jared won the prize of having her grandpa beheaded in order to make it possible for her dad to get a career promotion. (Dancing for a Decapitation is also a new dance contest TV show that will begin broadcasting this fall with 10 times more excitement and drama than Dancing with the Stars.)
This is interesting research and scholarship. I grew up learning the saints moved to Ohio, but don't remember being given the reason why other than some sort of persecution in New York. Interestingly, I had no reason to question this. I came to understand that Kirtland is where Joseph met Sidney Rigdon and converted the congregation, or so was told in church. This research sheds new light on these relationships and maybe even the reason for the move to Kirtland.
@Sis.ReneGade I do address this issue directly. It will be hard for many to understand, but Rigdon did not join Smith's church. Smith joined Rigdon's church, setting up his own branch of Rigdon's church. It was a merger, but it was not a merger of equals. Thirteen years later, Rigdon did not apostatize from Smith's church. Smith gradually apostatized from Rigdon's church. In other words, your thoughts are serving you well! I hope this little bit helps.
@@HowItCameToPass An August 31, 1831 newspaper article pegged Sidney Rigdon as the "brains" behind Mormonism, and that he and Smith colluded to put Joseph out front as the "ignorant farmboy" whom God had selected to restore the true gospel to the earth:
"It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of
Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of
turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better
chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of the [their] associates
and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was
given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith -- that a set of golden
plates
on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was
deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first
intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth.
They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the bible,
to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so
easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. Hints were given out that
young Joe Smith was the chosen one of God to reveal this new mystery to the
world; and Joe from being an idle young fellow, lounging about the villages,
jumped up into a very grave parsonlike man, who felt he had on his shoulders
the salvation of the world, besides a respectable looking sort of a blackcoat.
Old Joe, the ex-preacher, and several others, were the believers of the new
faith, which they admitted was an improvement in christianity, foretold word
for word in the bible. They treated their own invention with the utmost
religious respect. By the special interposition of God, the golden plates, on
which was engraved the Book of Mormon, and other works, had been buried for
ages in the hill by a wandering tribe of the children of Israel, who had found
their way to western New York, before the birth of christianity itself. Joe
Smith is discovered to be the second Messiah who was to reveal this word to
the
world and to reform it anew.
@@HowItCameToPass and to
Mormonish/
and Mr. Nielsen:
Great info. But, if it WAS Rigdon's "church", EVEN
IF js nicked
it and made a monster after
"HIS OWN IMAGE", can this
event not be appropriated by "the extant leaders" so as to
HANG ON TO THE "CHURCH" as it is now being reconfig-
ured with all the
"DISQUALIFYING"
acts, nature, and history of js
painted over, then just
"carry on" and "move forward" pretending js never existed nor the CULTURE that is
the very earth beneath- and
within- which
ITS STRUCTURAL
FOUNDATION IS
INEXTRICABLY
CONJOINED?
Because the corporation
with ITS ASSETS
and ITS POWER simply MUST NOT BE LOST!
@@HowItCameToPasswow...makes sense of a "wonder" ive been trying to figure out for years! Haha. Like, "I wonder why..." Fascinating way to look at it
Used to be in Lars's ward. Ordered the book & love the dedication. I was with Susan that day ... miss her! 😢
Ordered 2 books and I am so excited for this information. Mentally out of Mormonism since 2005 and resigned after that with my husband and my daughter's family.
47 minutes in and I still don't know what the author's thesis is. This is one big teaser trailer for his book, which he hawks non-stop during the show. I followed his suggestion and visited his website for more information. There is scant information, but more than enough ads for how to buy his book. I can tell that there are some interesting factoids worth pursuing in Nielsen's theory, but it is a major slog to get through his disparate trivia details and weave them together for myself to make sense of what his theory actually is. As best I've been able to put together, the author believes that someone took multiple sources, including works from a 17th century German Jesuit named Athanasius Kircher, and compiled them into what became the Book of Mormon.
Agreed. Just use ChatGPT for about 5 minutes and it debunks any of these logical leaps.
Any idea how the magick of John Dee and Smith parchments are also connected to the Kirshner?
@davewilson4094 Great question! Kircher was a staunch believer in magic. I quote Manly P. Hall in the book, reference Giambattista della Porto, and quote from Oedipus Aegyptiacus when Kircher talks about carrying out magic rituals in religious rites.
Long been fascinated with the Dee-J-Smith connection! Studied Dee collection in the British Museum.
@@HowItCameToPass Oohh…now you’ve got me excited. I’ve got a copy of Manly P Hall’s “The secret teachings of all ages” on my bookshelf. I’ve also wondered how much Joseph Smith was inspired by John Dee.
Very cool@@gwilymjones3476
This is a remarkable interview and compelling new evidence. I am now deep in Lars' book and frantically devouring and contemplating the content. Thank you Lars for spending so much time to the intensive research and book. Thank you Rebecca and Landon for bringing this fascinating conversation to the public.
One of the best podcasts I have watched for a long time. I bought the Kindle version of the book while I was watching, and can't wait to get into it. Thank you for making this one and sharing your research!
I’m feeling so sad that the honored Hugh Nibley was complicit in hiding and locking up the truth.
Had my name removed 15+ years ago. This book is icing on the cake. I ordered the book via Amazon.
😅😅😅😅😅😅 😅😅😅
always had many doubts about the origin of the Book of Mormon, there are things in which any person with reasonable intelligence and the ability to realize what the true intention of the author was, and necessarily move to the times and circumstances, beliefs, prejudices from that time.
It is clear that the author or authors used all the necessary arguments in their narrative with the purpose of removing the people of that time from all their religious traditions that delayed mental, spiritual and social development in those times, also the intention is to remove people from the clutches of oppressive religions and governments.
I recommend reading the book called "A NEW AMERICAN SCRIPTURE"
This book made a lot of sense to me. Regarding the authors, I leave it to the will of the people.
One thing is clear to me is that the LDS Corporation took over the copyright of the Book of Mormon and attributing to this they have made many changes after the first edition that Joseph Smith printed.
Fascinating stuff! I just ordered the book - can’t wait to read!
I’ve just ordered the book
Hey Lars, I just bought your book on Kindle,excited to read it. Like you, I am fairly well educated but not in history nor archaeology. However, I did do a podcast on The Backyard Professor, episode 125: a comparison of Roman and "Lehite" civilization, both supposedly contemporaneous. I will read your book critically, as I hope you might my podcast. Any way, my friend, thanks for what I have learned her tonight.
That magnetic glass ball setup sounds a lot like a ouija board”game”
Great show! Very informative. Thank you for posting it.
This is a fascinating topic! I've ordered the book and can't wait to read more!
This sounds pretty interesting. I got the hardcover and the kindle version.
This is amazing.
SO...... WHAT is "The Romance of Celeste"??? Does it read like The Book of Mormon?
none of it reads like the book of mormon. the theory is that Spalding's writing inspired the book of mormon. Lar's theory still requires the idea that JS, Rigdon, and others wrote the book of mormon.
@@urloony Which is my theory. Not JS alone but with assistance or a group effort
@@krismurphy7711 I also watched the Mormondiscussions podcast, where Lars is far more thorough than here. However, his theory doesn't address the biggest problem of providing any evidence that Rigdon ever came into contact with Spalding or that Rigdon ever knew anything about the book of mormon before it was published. The Kircherisms are fascinating and the connection to John Smith equally so, but there is still no smoking gun that puts Spalding and Rigdon together.
The "Testimonials" on the website are soooooooooo funny!!!!
This is huge!
Rebecca how are you enjoying reading this book?
Wow, those last 15 minutes about BYU and Kircher are pretty damning.......great job!
I think solving the riddle of the origin of the Book of Mormon is like using a whiteboard. We know the church’s narrative is incorrect and not based in reality, so let’s throw everything we know on a whiteboard until reasonable combinations and solutions appear. The truth is out there.
I think your empirically evident biased efforts to discredit the book of mormon is exactly like using a whiteboard, etc.
Though quite disappointingly, the narrative of the church is too often purposely incorrect, the truth is out there. But your empirically evident confirmation bias shows that your podcast is not a reliable source.
And you've claimed that the BOM has been proven a Fraud as well as the older New Testament. Tell us, which of all the THEORIES, including this one has PROVEN the book of Mormon is a fraud?
@@truthseeker4286 Mormonism contradicts the Bible. Mormons participate in EVERYTHING Jesus asked His followers NOT to do. You might want to read The Epistle to the Hebrews sometime…if you’re truly interested in following Christ, friend. “Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” -Hebrews 12:2, KJV. Jesus didn’t need a disorderly, convicted necromancer to “restore” anything in 1830 AD. Jesus told us repeatedly to avoid false prophets and that God FINISHED his work when He sent the Son.
@@TalismanianDevil I do very much like the scripturereferences you stated. Thank God for the new testament.
@@truthseeker4286 Please read Hebrews, friend. The New Covenant is about abandoning Judaism. Prophets and priest are NOT supposed to interfere in our relationship with Jesus. It mocks His sacrifice. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” -Hebrews 6:4-6, KJV
To be clear, Jesus did not author or finish any book. All writings claiming to be the word of God or Jesus are written by men that we have accepted as speaking on behalf of both. This is an important point because Mormons aren't practicing contrary to God, but are acting in accordance to words written by those they have accepted as speaking for God. Same as you and the Bible. The discussion should be why do we follow men that say they speak for God?
Yeah it looks like some comments are disappearing...
Mormonish does not moderate comments. This seems to be a UA-cam issue.
I started doing my research about Joseph Smith his family connection with Dartmouth after I realized Joseph Smith got a lot of his eternal perspectives from Emanuel swedenborg. I know for a fact they had that book at Dartmouth college and they studied it.
Joseph Smith mentioned Swedenborg's writings, so he was indeed familiar with them. That's probably where Smith got his doctrine of the three degrees of glory.
I’m so ready for RFM to read this book and put his thoughts out there.
@TheSurlyBuddhist I am scheduled to go on his podcast, explain more, and answer his question this Wednesday, April 24. Hope that you can make it live or afterwards!
@@HowItCameToPassThank you for your reply! I absolutely loved this episode, and am beyond excited for your discussion with RFM.
Also, I’ll be getting the ebook or audiobook! Thank you so very much for your work, your time, and acting in the interest of truth. I very much appreciate and respect you.
Watching the video on his website shocked me
I get my book tomorrow! Lars is the man.
Im still angry. 😂
Anger is a healthy emotion. Stay blessed.🎉🎉🎉🎉
Moi aussi!
@orisonorchards4251 it's hard to not. The lies and deceit
If your attention wonders during the preliminary comments, the substance of the podcast begins just after the 26:40 timestamp.
Thank you! 🙏
This is fascinating. Thank you for all of the work you have done.
Wow- I knew John Smith had something to do with everything - after reading Evidence of early Mormon counterfeiting where I first learned about John Smith- thanks for making the connection for me 👍
You absolutely should charge, don’t apologize for that… Ordering book now!
Oh, please. JS always knew he couldn't find treasure and it's unsupportable nonsense to assert he initially believe he was honorable. Power didn't *later* corrupt JS. He was a conman sociopath from the get go. But this is absolutely fascinating, and I look forward to scholars adding to it.
Joseph did the treasure-digging magic thing part-time for 5-6 years because it paid better than farm work did. The fact that Josiah Stowell hired him from 80 miles away to come look for treasure on his property means that Joseph had already established a reputation as a "seer" by age 20. You don't go work for a guy 80 miles from your area unless he pays you enough money to make it worthwhile.
@@randyjordan5521 Yes, he was a convincing conman. He knew he was a convincing conman.
@@randyjordan5521 I also always love how in just about every aspect of Joseph Smith's personal history you can see names of people and places that easily could have served as inspiration for many of the names that pop up in the Book of Mormon. With just the change of one letter, Josiah could be Mosiah. You don't even have to change even one letter for Lemuel Durfee (the Smith's landlord) to get a shout out in the BoM. Ditto Luman Walters or Laman Walter. Joseph is self-explanatory. Sam too. Lehigh county gets a shout out if you lop off the silent "igh" (which was never needed anyway). Harmony, Pennsylvania gets squeezed into "Himni" (which may be how the locals pronounced it anyway). Hale, Emma can become Helama...n. (Gotta stick an "n" on the end to keep people guessing.) Mahonri just kicks out an "s" and a "y" and replaces them with an "h" and an "i". Pronounce a Spanish "J" and the Daughter of Jared IS the Daughter of Herod.
As an outsider I’d say this is likely to be the biggest challenge to Mormon faith since the rash of gay teen suicides and Boy Scout raping had that three way with financial fraud.
You are all amazing!! Thank you for this important episode!!
Excellent. Just ordered the book. Excited to read it. Not surprised alchemy is at the root. Kircher’s faux languages remind one of John Dee’s obsidian looking glass faux Enochian language. I’ve always seen JS as a John Dee type. Remember Smith had a Jupiter alchemist talisman on him when he died.
1:47:25 is this Kircher's Kinderhook plates? What a crazy parallel!
And obviously both the names "Baruch" (Baruchias) and Nephi are in the Apocrypha which is likely where Kirtscher got that name from...
@calebrockstedt Precisely. Kircher chose names for his slippery rabbi (Barachias Nephi) that were only in the Catholic canon, but not in the canon of the rest of Christianity, which would cause his Catholic contemporaries to question him less. He collected what he said were the bones of the nephilim and put them on display in his Museo Kircheriano, precisely because he enjoyed the idea that his made-up Nephi was a "giant" in the field of linguistics. Baruch means "blessed" in Arabic (with Barachias being the Greek transliteration of the name). Because Barachias, the father of Zacharias, was murdered between the altar and the sanctuary, Kircher hoped that this name would also invoke feelings of integrity. In other words, Kircher designed for his fictitious source to have names that agreed with the backstory of him being a part-Jewish/part-Egyptian rabbi, who was a man of great stature intellectually, as evidenced by his mysterious manuscript. I hope this helps!
"Baruch" is also in Protestant Bibles: Jeremiah 32:12 and 36:4.
I've never heard of Sydney Rigdon be romanticized so much… "Beautiful man" and again "beautiful man" and other adoring superlatives. The adoration seems quite odd
If people only understood the occult and how they operate, this would make perfect sense.
Can you elaborate?
"The" occult isnt a simple group of beliefs...many groups and individuals look into things that are hidden (meaning of occult) Mormons think they found answers to what was hidden. They are quite mistaken with most things. But not with everything. Seeing "the occult" as some kind of boogey man is a waste of time. Some "occultists" are terrible people, some aren quite spectacular.
@@charlesmendeley9823 If I may make a recommendation, read "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View." Quinn does an exceptional job laying out the common superstitions and practices leading up to the early 19th century in America, and then explaining how they pertain to the Smith family and the advent of the LDS religious system of belief. I would suggest reading this book prior to reading "How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass" for significant context. Explaining these elements comprehensively in a UA-cam comment is not realistic.
Got the book, I’m so intrigued by this information and will start reading today. Thank you all.
Is this not the story of le petit prince😮 31:05
I just ordered the book from Amazon.
Get togethers at the Nielsen house must be getting really awkward...
An important interview partner for a follow up is Randy Bell, as the book heavily interacts with his "Dartmouth connection" ideas and studies of Prof. John Smith's lectures.
Since Dan Vogel's "report" about Dartmouth, putting that together with other things I've been studying for years but kept coming to dead-ends, and then the EPA disclosures, I feel pretty certain that if just my own little "suspicions" prove even close, that Dartmouth Connection could blow the Polar Ice Cap clean off the planet.
Hope I live long enough to see it.
It's scarier to "feel" it and endure the weight than any "disillusionment" resulting from diligent exposition might pose.
No way "COVID" was fortuitous. "Nothing is hidden except to be revealed."
SOOO many thanks to all (four) and each!
[Just reached the part of pod in which you explained meaning of word "mormon"! I HAVE BEEN SHOUTING IT "PARASITE" for few years now, just out of my anger, and no knowledge of else!
A "word-nerd" lifelong, I think that, for me, it's just that
THE WORD SOUNDS LIKE
WHAT IT IS!]
Good idea. And since Hyrum was actually a student at the "Moor's Indian Charity School" which was located on the same campus and out of which Dartmouth itself actually sprang...I guess Hyrum could also have been called a "Moor man". There was an early 20th Century psychologist (Walter F. Prince) who wrote an article examining the Book of Mormon from the perspective of the mental processes involved in devising names for a work of fiction. Certain types of names or combinations of syllables would be constantly suggesting themselves subliminally. The BoM is full of Mor + on syllables in various combinations. Ammoron, Mormon, Moroni, Moron. Prince suggested that the William Morgan affair may have contributed to this. (Morgan's widow actually became a plural wife of Joseph Smith). Add to that the possibility of MonMor being there. Also the "Moor" from Moor's Charity School.
Can someone give me the CliffsNotes version of this? I tried to watch him twice and slept through it both times.
Skip to the last third. That where he gets to the point.
1:33:25 More chemists should become authors, so we can get more phrases like "Non-oxidizable media" 😅
Lars’ website seems to be shutdown. Mormon Church know anything about this?
This theory is not a new theory but and old theory going back as far as the mid 1800.
i’ll be waiting to hear dan vogel’s take. the kircher mentions are interesting but i don’t know what to make of this yet.
Excellent presentation
Following...
Ya know we're watching this on facebook and 🤣
Sunday Morning and not at Mass/church service! Bunch of heathens. Only joking. I am an organist and I faithfully play for Mass twice every Sunday and have done that for decades. Your missing out on a few good hymn tunes and a wonderful time of contemplation. If you are ever in London I will give you the details. Cheers. Graham.
This was a wowser of an Episode!! Lars are you going to be on MSP or RFM?
I bought the e-book! looking forward to reading it and learning more.
Where did the name Moroni come from? Probably Gaetano Moroni: "Gaetano Moroni (17 October 1802, Rome - 3 November 1883, Rome) was an Italian writer on the history and contemporary structure of the Catholic Church and an official of the papal court in Rome." Seems odd that an angel would have an Italian name, they all have Hebrew names. How did an Italian angel sneak in there? The ecclesiastical dictionary book he wrote wasn't until 1840 but he was probably known before that.
Vogel demolishes the book in his review video.
My husband & I are wondering how Joseph translated it. Do you have any ideas on that?
Purchased the hardcover from Amazon and am very impressed with your podcast interview. Thank you all.
I don't buy it. I think Joseph Smith was perhaps more than smart enough to make up the Book of Mormon by himself, and this explains the whole contretemp with the lost pages.
1:39:05 "This should not make you hate Joseph Smith".
Sorry, but your thought experiment didn't work on me. I still hate Joseph Smith because I hate all sexual predators and conmen. You're asking way too much from me.
A never mo here- great talk today.
So if Joseph had this Spaulding manuscript then I guess all those people who left the church because they thought Joseph used the same seer stone for translating as he did treasure digging can come back to church!
That point was made by Joseph Smith's father in law, Isaac Hale, in his 1833 legal affidavit:
"I first became acquainted with JOSEPH SMITH, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that
time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of
seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In
this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure...
"About this time, Martin Harris made his appearance upon the stage; and Smith began to
interpret the characters or hieroglyphics which he said were engraven upon the plates, while Harris
wrote down the interpretation...
"I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and
where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book...The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he
looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of
Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!"
@@randyjordan5521 pffft obviously Isaac was LYING to cover for the fact that Joseph was secretly using the Spaulding manuscript. That was the whole point of the stone in the hat story don’t you know. To stomp on that theory the first time it was brought up 😒
Interesting non-sequitur. I don't believe that any hypothesis regarding the Spaulding manuscript is inconsistent with the understanding that Joseph Smith put on a "translation" show using a seer stone. Joseph Smith's story has always been that he "translated" the "ancient record" on the "gold plates". Nobody is questioning whether or not Joseph Smith made that claim.
The Spaulding Manuscript is described in WHO REALLY WROTE THE BOOK OF MORMON?
I won't buy the book unless I see a Dan Vogel critique of it wherein he recommends reading it.
“Hermes Trismegistus” is fun to say.
Needs a timestamp for people who just want to hear about the book/theory and not the trigger warnings, autobiography, etc.
Why is it that Sandra Tanner does not believe Mr. Spaulding’s book is involved in the making of TBOM?
This is one theory of several so no one knows for sure what is sources weee but they were definitely 19th century.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 I think JS pulled from all kinds of sources while writing the BOM. This one as a part of it.
I will but the book
Is there a source that has the name Nephi before the year 1830?
The Apocrypha book of 2 Maccabees chapter 1 verse 36 in the King James version Bible.
@@tabandken8562 interesting when you look up the definition of Nephi with ChatGPT:
The connection between Nephi and purification is relevant in both contexts. In 2 Maccabees, Nephi symbolizes purification, and in the Book of Mormon, Nephi leads a “new beginning” for God’s chosen people, escaping the destruction (or “cleansing”) of Jerusalem. Thus, Nephi may represent both “purification” and “new beginnings” in these texts-whether through literal fire in Maccabees or through spiritual renewal and deliverance in the Book of Mormon.
Interesting. 🤔
I loved that.
How to buy the book. Help
Don’t buy it. It’s just propaganda and lies.
Was John Smith Joseph's uncle? And Hyrums professor at Dartmouth?
No. Cousin who was there and gone 30 years before Hyrum started school at Moor's.
It's a different John Smith; he's still related if I'm remembering correctly, but at a greater distance.
Figure 31 is substantive and warrants further investigation and dissemination
This conversation made me reaffirm my testimony that the book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. Thank you so much for this episode!
Why?
That theory has been clearly debunked by the evidence..the question at this point isn’t if the Book of Mormon was a 19th century fraud but rather what were the sources for the fraud.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 wow, your claim that "that theory has been clearly debunked" is absolutely false. Your claims are theories; apparently you're not aware of that. I'm not necessarily a supporter of the insanity within the Mormon church, but your statement is rather foolish and shows explicitly your confirmation bias. Good thing you not a judge in our court system.
@@truthseeker4286 Where is any example of "Reformed Egyptian"??? How could ANY 1600's King James Version translation get into The Book of Mormon?? WHY wasn't Emma ever allowed to look at the "Plates" uncovered/unconcealed??? ALL the anachronisms???? Why did Joseph try to sell the copyright for The Book of Mormon...scripture handed to him by heavenly messenger????? *partial list
@@truthseeker4286 Well, you're theory requires belief in a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel-man named Moroni, who hauls ancient records, swords, tables, crystals and breastplates (among other things) back and forth between heaven and earth, and also requires belief in remote translation of ancient records by way of a magic rock in a hat or a couple of magic crystals held in a wire bow attached to an ancient breastplate. You also have to believe that the silly comic-book stories in the BoM are deeply spiritual and profound (Ammon single-handedly disarming 100 livestock rustlers, Nephi literally building a transoceanic ship out in the middle of the scraggly wilderness, Nephi decapitating the unconscious Laban in order to steal the brass plates, etc., the "Daughter of Jared" dancing for a decapitation the same as the NT Daughter of Herod, God fingering some small rocks and turning them into magic glow-stones). I don't know. Maybe you're right and common sense and logic are things that exist to deceive us, while believing ridiculous things OTOH really is the best way to please God. "Test-o-faith" and all that.
Are you saying the inventor of French “verlan” was a guy name MontMor? 🤯
@scottzuniga Although the word "verlan" itself is a relatively recent construction (19th century), the practice of transposing two syllables to create a hidden meaning (or subtext) has long been a tradition/phenomenon in French literature. It is not my claim that Monmor-Mormon is the first example of the transposition in all of French history/literature. Neither is it my claim that it is the first example after the term "verlan" was coined. It is not my claim that Pierre de Montmaur was the first inventor of the transposition. However, as mentioned in the video, it is interesting (at least to me) that Montmaur was accused of "toying with onomastics and acrostics" to the point that multiple authors wrote burlesques of him in which precisely that happens.
please, in the future, check your recording abilities, to make sure there is acceptable sound for human listening. The Echo is so disturbing I can't listen to this important broadcast. So amateurish, and unprofessional.
I can hear it fine with no echo. I think there may be a problem on our end.
Dan Vogel is not going to like this
I won't buy it unless I see a Dan Vogel critique of it wherein he recommends reading it.
I'm late!! Hope i didn't miss everything!
Slide button to the left 😉
@SilentThundersnow I tried to answer some of your questions in the chat, but I kept getting kicked out. I'm not sure why; Rebecca says it's a UA-cam-wide issue. Kircher definitely had Mark Hoffman vibes, you're right about that.
I've listened to a good portion of the interview and still don't know what the point of the book is. What is the direct connection to Joseph Smith? (I am not LDS either!)
The LDS church has over $175 Billion in liquid assets. Over $100 Billion in Ensign Peak stock trading shell companies. Over $385 Billion in total assets like land, chapels, temples, farms, businesses, etc. Yet prosecuted a hungry homeless man for theft for eating 4 chicken nuggets. The LDS church charges poor people tithing, 10% of their income. The LDS church counts member donated service hours has church $$$ donations to the poor. They lie about donations to charity. They treat BYU as a charity. They have repeatedly transferred charity donations in other countries to BYU university. They broke government reporting laws in the USA, Australia, Canada & UK. There recent $1 Billion in donations was to avoid losing their tax exampt status. It had nothing to do with helping those in need.
There is 3 different books which each have some similarities to the book of Mormon. there are theories of the Book of Mormon being an embellished chimera of the other books.
Mormon Stories Podcast on the Book of Mormon is far better done, much more complete & detailed.
@@Pay-It_Forward Hi, Thanks for the response. Does anyone really believe that Joseph Smith had any idea at all about Fr. Kircher? Linguists have tried, and are trying, to re-create the Adamic language. A lot of work has been done on proto-Indo-European, a recognized and scholarly branch of modern linguist studies but that is a far cry from the earlier language groups.
@@stephengriffin4612 Mormon Stories Podcasts talks about how Hyrum was at Dartmouth College for 3 years taking Mythology classes & was taught about this. Plus Hyrum was roommates with the son of the author of "View of the Hebrews" another book Joseph Smith plagiarized ideas from. The podcast claims Joe didn't even live in Palmyra until 3 years after first vision event. And that there was frequently vision accounts in the newspapers for years around the time of the revivals. Nathan Smith Director of Dartmouth College Medical is the one who did Joe's bone surgery. His staff frequently went to the Smith home near the College.
MANY "hold-up the church" placards playing cards with comments. May explain the comment text-drops; they are either jamming the system or can't keep up with whose name to report to the tower.
Would I understand what your book is about if I am not a Mormon?
@TheStefhend Yes, it is quite accessible and well-referenced. You might benefit from knowing basic Mormon history, but it is not a prerequisite.
I agree, you need to go slow when looking at the occult pieces within Mormonism. I grew up LDS and I know other LHP practitioners who also did. If you throw the baby out with the bathwater, it leads to needless pain.
I will look at your book. It sounds interesting. As far as your family goes, it's ok to reach out for help. I can hear it in your voice, a lit more healing needs to happen.
I tried to get on the website but was unsuccessful. 🤔
VERY THOROUGH AND SCHOLARLY
Guilt by associations eh? LOL!
I'm sorry, but its to much of a sales pitch for me.
Excellent!!!
Would be nice to have Lars go up against a defender of the faith in a discussion or debate!
@chad. You're watching it.
By "debate", do you mean "DOG-FIGHT"? If so, why?
How would
that change
anything or
"help" anything? 🌹
Everything this author is saying can be true IN ADDITION TO THE ETHIOPIAN THEORY. The Book of Mormon could have been written by Ancient Ethiopian Jews and discovered by ordinary means. The book could have been passed through all these men (starting in Europe) and their "isms" could have been added along the way.
None of the men wanted to publish the Book of Mormon because they didn't see the value in publishing an account of Christ written by Ethiopians after they were separated from Israel. The Book of Mormon is just Non-KJV Bible and might be viewed as blasphemy (this is essentially how the Book of Enoch was viewed). It wasn't published until the value was seen as something greater. That greater thing was the origin story for the Native American Indians.
The concept that America was preserved for the "Last Days" was formulated long before Mormonism. Freemasons and Rosicrucian's were heavily concerned about this. America had now been discovered and this brings up some serious Biblical questions. The origin of the Native American Indian was at the top of the list. The theory that the Native American Indian was a "Lost Tribe of Israel" was popularized in frontier America but it was formulated by Rosicrucians and Freemasons long before.
If it can be proven that the stories in the Book of Mormon are Ethiopian, you could then see how the book originated in Ethiopia and was altered (isms added, and other words like "Egypt" censored) to fit the agenda of telling the Native American Indians they were once Jews.
More work is too be done in this area like showing the Rosicrucian interest in shaping America, then connecting the Smith family to Rosicrucianism (it was through Lucy Mack). All of this is in addition to connecting the stories in the Book of Mormon to Ethiopia. It's multilayered problem that is totally out of reach for most active LDS that have day jobs and soccer practice carpool.
To briefly summarize the Ethiopian connection:
Lehi escaped to Egypt where he had the Tree of Life Vision. This vision is a roadmap that tells him Jews will be destroyed in Egypt and he needs to follow the Nile River to Ethiopia. The destruction of Jews in the vision (Jews falling away) is detailed in Jeremiah 44 where Egypt is prophesized to become a "Desolation". Genesis 2:13 connects Ethiopia to The Garden of Eden and therefore the Tree of Life. Ethiopia is the source of the Nile and this is relayed as the "head" of the river in the vision.
Lehi followed the Nile to Ethiopia and the Nephites are Ethiopian Jews. This was a common migration for Jews since at least King Solomon. Some Ethiopian Jews are still there but most migrated to Israel after WWII.
Helaman 3 describes one migration back North, which is down the Nile, to Egypt. The land described in Helaman 3 is clearly Egypt. It's "treeless", they build with "cement" and "ship" timber. Egypt is in the Sahara, they build stone temples and they use Lebanon Cedar shipped from Lebanon. The Ammonites are coming from modern day Jordan.
Helaman 3 does not describe Canada or Guatemala. A key verse is Helaman 3:6 where the term "desolation" is refuted. Ethiopian Jews had the words of Jeremiah and felt it necessary to explain why they would consider migrating back to "Desolation" despite Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 44.
When the Nephites are destroyed, it happens in Egypt. This is according to Jeremiah 44 and also prophesized by the Angel in 1 Nephi 12. The Angel tells Nephi exactly how his seed will be destroyed and the angel claims it will happen in the same river as the one in the Tree of Life Vision, 1 Nephi 12:16. Again, this is the Nile River and the destruction happens in Egypt.
There's hundreds more reasons that show the Book of Mormon was written by Ethiopian Jews (just ask me) and this theory is not discounted by the theory presented by the author in this video. It can go hand in hand.