Pickup Placement - Guitar Manufacturer's Best-Kept Secret?
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- Check our ML Sound Lab: ml-sound-lab.com/
0:00 Intro
0:31 Explaining the test
1:16 Gibson R9 vs "Chibson"
2:26 Difference in aggressiveness
3:03 Pickup position determines aggression
4:47 Test results!
amen to that. I've seen so many guitars that have their bridge pickup too far from the bridge, most of them are extended range and have 7 or 8 strings, which makes the matter even more crucial.
That Deftones guitar is the first thing that comes to mind. That's almost a middle pickup. 😢
coughstrandbergcough
My Caparison Brocken 8 is like that. I like how it sounds and all but it’s way too far away from the bridge for a super percussive attack.
you have to consider the scale length
Schecter and Keith Merrow figured this out at least. After 2013 all of Schecter's guitars had the bridge pickup moved really close to the bridge due to Keith's input.
This is the nerdy recording shit that I’m into.
Keep this series going!
Thanks so much! I just need to understand guitars better. I hate the fact that we've spent so much money on things like pickups and tonewoods and glue necks and nitro tops which ultimately have very little to do with guitar tone. So far scale lengths seems to be the biggest spec I've found that really makes a huge difference.
@@mlsoundlab now if only we can uncover why my vocals sound god awful lol
You're onto something here. You have the best tests out there dude.
Aww Resington you da man!!
My modded Strat Humbucker Bridge Pickup 1st location string is about 27mm, compared to the video. The Seymourizer Pickup I have was was too bright, so I flipped it around so the screw pole pieces are towards the fretboard. This got me the tone i wanted.
"Toanwould"
Thanks bud. Exactly what I have been advocating on other channels.
Check out the difference between an SG and a LP. ("LP's sound warmer then SG's, because of the maple cap" is the myth. But both pickups on these guitars have different spacing towards the bridge).
Yup this is exactly my point. And why a HSS strat bridge pickup will not sound exactly like a Gibson bridge pickup. Longer scale length Fender makes it brighter - not the bolt on neck but the actual scale length and different string tension. And then they've compensated for that brightness by having that bridge pickup further away from the bridge to make it darker. The only thing is - that's not exactly the same kind of brightness. Proximity to bridge pickup seems to affect brightness around 2khz while scale length brightness is a much broader overall brightness....... we will find the truth!! 😅
This is a thing I've been nerding a lot lately actually ! 2cm from the bridge saddle to the bridge pickup seems like the best compromise to me. Both for tightness and articulation.
Would love to hear more!! What scale guitar? What pickup? What's the negative sound if you're too close to the bridge?
@@mlsoundlab 27" WelGuitar custom. Bare Knuckle Silo in the bridge.
Seems like too close to the bridge you loose dynamics and a bit output too. 2cm keeps that twang going while retaining the beefy and organic side.
It's valuable info like this that will standardize electric guitar the way violins have become standardized for optimal tone & playability over the centuries.
Thanks matey!!
Pickup position has a profound impact on tone. Both the adjustable vertical (height) position and the fixed horizontal position. Great vid!
Thank you! 🤲
-Kai
As always very good information, thanks for sharing this!
Glad you found it helpful!
-Kai
I think the dirty secret is that the things that effect tone the most is pickups, electronics and capacitor choice and pickup placement. Tone woods are minor.
Always enjoy these
Thank you 💪
-Kai
Thank you for this very informative video.
I possess an epiphone les paul custom and there was always something that bother me in the sound.
Since I boost 2000khz by 1.5db with an EQ, it sounds really better.
MUCH agreed. Most makers put the back pickup TOO close to the bridge where the string elipse is the very smallest. Check the riffs that George Harrison played on his '63 Country Gentleman ... the back PUP is FAR away from the bridge and it provides the neatest, mid-rangey tones you could ever find, rather than just ear splitting treble.
YES YES YES thank you!
I always wondered why import Les Paul and especially Epiphones had a different bridge pickup placement compared to original Les Paul Standards. On the import the pickup is always farther away.
You can even see it on the Gibson Studio Models. The bridge pickup is not in the same position as on a Standard.
On one of my guitars, it is wired in a way that allows me to select which coil of the bridge humbucker I use. It wasn't my deliberate intention. It just happened to work out that way. Much to my great surprise the two coils sound different. Moving just a half-inch further away from the bridge can alter which harmonics are given preference. I don't have a similar arrangement for the neck humbucker, although my guess is it wouldn't likely make an audible difference if I selected this vs that coil in the neck humbucker.
Great video! I am building a couple of offset partscasters (Jaguar with Duncans and a Jazzmaster with Lollar DBs) and noticed how much further the pickups were from the bridge and the neck. I was going to route out some of the body to get the neck pickup closer to the fret board and am now going to place the rear humbucker closer to the bridge. Is 22 mm ideal or could the rear pickup be even closer?
Honestly I think original Gibson design must have been "as close as possible" to the bridge and neck. Remember that pickup distance is likely relative to the scale length. So on a longer scale guitar you're likely 2-4mm further away to be comparable to a Gibson scale. But still I think Gibson tried to get as close as possible with pickup rings.
An excellent demonstration, and I love that you measured the frequency band where the change is centred. What was the Q like, for the changes you measured?
I'd also love to see the neck pickup version of this video, including for single coils and perhaps coil split humbuckers where one can choose which coil is active when split.
nice video! i want to ask though from my experience when tweaking my first guitar. during the pandemic i ordered some pickups (fleor) and push pull knobs as an experiment, and found a 7 way wiring diagram to test! 😅 long story short i was kept hearing the same results from every position and combination. so to change that i've lowered the bridge pickup so that they'll have a noticeable difference (at least to my ears 🤷♂) . being said that i dont know which is the caltrop: the wiring schematic the pickups or both?😂
Did you physically move the pickups around, or is this your best guess via eq?
Edit: I had to rewatch your explanation, but something doesn't make sense. How did you play the guitars if you raised the strings by, what, 15-20mm?
This reminds me of something I noticed about Gibsons and Epiphones. Gibson tends to place their pickups closer to the bridge than Epiphone does. I could never figure out why Epis looked slightly different compared to Gibsons but that was an elightening moment when I noticed it lol. Also explains why an Epi won't sound *exactly* like a Gibson
Exactly, why I love the sound of my Epiphone , just sounds a bit better.
Where on the pickup did you measure the distance from? was it the edge of the pickup itself or the polepiece? and which side of the bridge, im curious how my guitars compare to what you put in the thumbnail
Polepieces!! That's what I used for my measurements. And that varies even between all of my seven Gibson Les Pauls too.
@@mlsoundlab interesting, how much different was it between the les pauls?
Considering take tonewood isn’t a real audible thing on electric guitars, maybe we could make a start body sounds like a Gibson Les Paul just by installing the same electronic and adjusting the pickup configurations, right? Do you think it is a feasible experiment ?
Check my previous video! Scale length is the biggest issue when trying to make Fender and Gibson sound like each other. I had no problems getting my short scale Fender sounding close to a Gibson Les Paul. Actually the Fender had a shorter scale and was therefore even fatter. 😮
@@mlsoundlab A Jag is as much shorter than a Gibby as a Gibby is compared to a Strat. 3/4ths of an inch.
I like my bridge pickup a little away from the bridge. Definitely makes a difference
How do you feel about multi-scale bridge pickups where the pickup is not at the same angle as the bridge?
That is a common problem with multiscale guitars - slanted pickups are a lot more expensive to work with, but straight pickups will have compromises in the placement. With the added scale length of a multiscale though, you can afford to have a larger distance between the saddle and the pickup, so it's not quite as bad as it looks.
-Kai
Mikko chiming in too - which ever side of the pickup is closer to the bridge will be slightly brighter. I would say it's better to have the thick strings being picked up closer to the bridge and the thinner strings further away. Generally you want low notes as bright as possible and high notes as fat as possible. That is the aim of many guitar builders.
The quest for tone.
Lot is between the ears. I am convinced about that.
Great test! Another test that I would love to see is how much of this can be offset by boosting frequencies with an EQ on the DI signal before it hits the amp. Are we really doomed to never get an aggressive guitar tone if the pickup is too far from the bridge? If so, how far is too far? My guess is an EQ should be capable of offsetting these slight differences between bridge pickup positions, but it's just a guess.
Regardless of pickup location,
Raising the pole pieces nearer the strings will increase brightness.
Lower wind pickups and/or ceramic or alnico 5 will also give a brighter tone.
There are other tricks as well
How were you able to move the position of the pickup without routing into the guitar?
The pickups weren't screwed in for this test, they were freely moved around and taped in place (obviously not a sustainable practice, but it works for testing purposes).
-Kai
@mlsoundlab yeah, but again, most humbucker bodies, fully assembled are at least 12mm in height, and then adding the height adustmentment tabs adds another 8mm. So given you had to raise the bridge high enough to accommodate that, and leave enough space for standard string clearance over the pole pieces, that would be close to 25mm. How did you physically play the guitars at that point?
That's cool test, but how did you move the pickup away from the bridge for 10 mm? The regular pickup hole is not so wide.🤔
That was the reason I couldn't do it with a Gibson. The Tokai pickups have short feet so I can easily place them with tape and pressure to the top. It was not pretty 😂
@@mlsoundlabYou should have shown that. Rather convenient you didn't.
Sorry but this doesn't pass the smell test.
I built an offset V last year that I put a Duncan JB in. The guitar has a pickguard into which the pickups are mounted (like on a Strat). I miscalculated and milled the pickup cutout about 10mm farther toward the bridge than I had intended. The pickup took a very different character. No less aggressive than previous JBs I've installed closer to bridges on other builds, just more beefy and singing.
I never made a new pickguard because it sounded really great in the so called "wrong" position.
My result in that case is inconsistent with the results you showed us.
Additionally I had a Gretsch Corvette for many years. Those guitars have a long neck tenon so the neck pickup is pushed farther back. As a consequence, the inverse phenomenon occurred where there was additional clarity in the position, almost like the middle position on a Strat, but no less strength of signal.
The test in the video is faked.
See my main thread comment for the explanation.
The test is faked. If he raised the strings high enough to get a humbucker under the strings, the guitar would be unplayable.
@@peachmelba1000 It most certainly was nearly unplayable. Very demanding and did not stay in tune very well. Not faked. The Tokai pickups do not have those high legs that Gibson pickups do. On a Gibson you can't even lift the strings high enough.
Is 2k in the hearing range we start losing towards middle-age? 'Cause I heard so little difference between any of these clips, it would take a null test to convince me there even was any. 😅
If you're starting to lose 2k you're functionally deaf.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Let's hope not. 🤞
@@ericolson326 You'd probably notice well before you're at that point.
Listening to DI is a little bit difficult. 2khz makes a huge difference especially in the "kerrang" and aggressiveness of a guitar. Many times this is exactly that area where the guitar high end is not competing with anything in the mix. Usually from around 4khz forward drum cymbals will start taking quite a bit of space so that 2khz might be the only spot where guitars are being heard constantly. Super important frequency area.
I never heard any guitar player say that song was a hit or sounded so good because of my pickup position lol.
This video is great and makes lots of good points, pickup position isn’t going to polish a turd into a hit, or even makes it sound better.
Getting guitars to sound as good as possible is more important to some people than others. We're personally in the business of making guitars sound amazing, so this is our own exploration in the matter. This also isn't an actionable video - no one's going to re-route their guitars to put the pickup closer to the bridge after this. Glad you enjoyed the video regardless!
-Kai
@@mlsoundlab I totally get that, it's a really cool thing, specially for experimenting, getting guitars to sound good is extremely important to me too :), keep rocking!
come to think of it, Meshuggah guys have their respective signature guitars' bridge pickup closest to the bridge, which, i think, makes them quite an outlier to the average 8 string guitars.
Oh yeah - compare the position of the M80M to an Ibanez multiscale like the RGDMS8. The difference in bridge pickup placement is incredible stark, especially on the low string (arguable the most important string to get right on an 8 string).
-Kai
Another thing that has more impact than tonewood and purists still only care about the goddam wood. These vids are golden man
I think everyone needs to be reasonable when it comes to all this. It bothers me quite a bit NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH about what matters in an electric guitar. After doing these tests it's becoming so much more clear. Right now I think scale length is likely the most overlooked spec out there. It should likely be the first thing you think about. What tuning you play in and what kind of a brightness you want to have.
@@mlsoundlab very true, i mean if that wasn't the case what would be the point of baritone guitars, outside of tension?
@@lukepaterlini7396 Tuning lower becomes a problem obviously. It's so funny that a lot of guitarists think you need more strings to tune lower. The amount of strings makes absolutely no difference. Scale length is what it's all about. A Fender scale goes down to C or B quite well but after that you likely need more range. Remember that a regular scale 7-string is the same scale as a Fender tuned to B.
There is an inflationary use of the word "secret" in the internet, especially on UA-cam. And then there is something pretty normal...
The chibson and the R9 sound damn close for a 6k$ diffrence.
Oh yes most definitely! 😅
That's pretty much one of the few major differences between Gibson and Epiphone
Intentional maybe?
As a metal rythm player I look for guitars that have the humbucker MORE away from the bridge. That gives the bridge pickup more "balls", more low end power.
Personally I think 2k sounds fizzy and like crap and my best sounding guitar has the bridge pickup unusually far away from the bridge.
So I agree with you that the bridge pickup placement is critical, and most guitars have it wrong, but I disagree with you as to WHERE the pickup should be. If you want lots of tinny fizzy 2k then just buy a Telecaster dude
Schecter has their bridge pickups way too close to the bridge imo. I could never get them to sound right. I much prefer the pickup placed away from the bridge like Jackson, Ibanez and Solar do.
I'm sure it's an intentional move to pull the bridge pickup away slightly on a longer scale guitar. Remember that longer scale guitars will automatically be much brighter when tuned to the same tuning because of the string tension difference.
This is what I have been preaching ever since Glenn 'F@cking' Fricker demoed his rant on pickups do not impact distorted sound. I have a Schecter KM and an Ibanez RG Prestige, I swapped the KM Fishman bridge pickup to the Ibanez to verify his findings and what I found was the sound is different on each guitar. On the KM the sound is tinnier and the same pickup sounds FATTER on the Ibanez all because of the pickup placement. There is about a 1/2-inch difference in placement from the bridge.
@@mlsoundlab Not completely a fact, see my comment below. Both guitars are standard 25.5 scale, other than being from different manufacturers, the bridge pickup placement is extreme from each other.
@@Shred_Rocket i bet you also figured that the difference becomes more noticeable the lower you tune them right ? I've got an RG and a cheap epiphone SG and they have very different specs, but besides scale length, the most obvious difference is that the epiphone g310 has a bridge pickup that is way to far from the bridge. I've always noticed that the epiphone sounded muddy and lost its "new string brightness" sooner, it also sounds thicker and thicker the lower you go in tuning, to the point of getting a bit undefined compared to the RG which keeps a rather "sharp" sound.
A24 lighting.
Tokia isn't chibson
True!
-Kai
I cannot hear above 7500 hz
so it all sounds the same to me
Not sure if you're being cheeky. He's talking about 2200 Hz. Within your stated range of hearing, brother.
all credibility goes out the window, when someone takes a Tokai, a fairly well made Japanese guitar, and slaps a Chibson sticker over it!
This is 98% of the sound difference between and SG and a Les Paul
This video is fake.
Think about it.
If he raised the strings high enough to be able to move the pickup around under them (which would neccessitate at a bare minimum 15mm), then how did he play the guitar thereafter?
15mm is about .475", or just under 31/64".
Edit: Regular electric guitar "highly playable" action is anywhere from 1.6mm (4/64") to 2.4mm (6/64").
After about 3.1mm (4/64") pkayability at pitch become difficult and higher thereafter it becomes troublesome (particularly with intonation), and just plain physically.
You could cleanly play slide guitar at almost any action higher than 3mm, but not standard fretting without it sounding terrible and being physically very demanding.
The pickups had short legs, and was taped to the top of the guitar for the samples - this allowed it to be freely moved around for the testing.
-Kai
Did you adjust the high of the pickup each time?
That’s a very important thing.
If not, your demonstration is useless.
You should have mentioned this so as not to bias the test.