When I listen to you, it sounds so straight forward that I want to dive right in. Fantastic job summarizing how to start thinking about your central campaign theme and developing it. Outstandingly motivating. Thank you so much.
Setting can be HUGE inspiration. My friend wanted to be a lizardfolk in a swamp, so asked me to run a one shot. I decided to place it in the mere of dead men. Lets just say.. after reading into the lore of the mere, and then neverwinter as the nearest city-state, i’m now like 7 sessions deep into a massive campaign with my players. Established lore can be such a helpful jumping point for homebrew campaigns.
Exactly. When im home-brewing a campaign, I always spend at least a month creating a design doc for the setting. I don't care if im using a prestablished setting or my own, I will have a 10-20 page document of details I need to keep in mind when im running. It lets me have answers when i need them already prepared. helps so much with keeping on task.
Yeah, reminds me of how mid the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign is. I just finished running it as my first DMed campaign Throughout the campaign, it mentions these cults that are trying to bring princes of elemental evil to the material plane to wreak havoc, and that long ago there were drow that worshiped something called the Elder Elemental Eye, but that's not really explored at all *Now.* Would you have guessed this minor figure mentioned like twice throughout the campaign is one of the oldest gods, Therizdun, who is known for not only letting the Far Realm manifest in the universe, but ALSO for planting the Seed of Evil and creating THE ABYSS? Of course not, because there's literally no importance placed on that plot point Not to mention Therizdun has been sealed away and people over time have attempted to bring him back, meaning this campaign easily could have incorporated him into the plot. That, plus the very straightforward dungeons with no particular complexity to them kinda undermines the campaign a lot. It heavily underutilizes a cool plot idea and is boring
I usually use “where” as my starting point. I like creating settings and my home brew has conflicts built into them so it’s pretty easy to hitch adventures and campaigns to existing setting conflicts.
I was in a 1-20 d&d campaign that took ~68 in-game days to get to lvl 20 and a boon. We then got a year of downtime to prepare ourselves (and the whole world that we were the champions of) for the final cataclysmic boss fight. Was a good time, wasn't much drifting once we found the main menacing plot, and we were invested into it. About 2.5 years to play that all out.
I guess I don't agree with the main premise here, viz. that every campaign needs a central conflict. Episodic gaming, or a series of adventures linked not by a central conflict, but by a cast of PCs (which overlap, but will likely change over the course of the campaign) is a very enjoyable way to play. So, I think the advice here shouldn't be "you need a central conflict for the whole campaign and here's how to do it" but rather "IF you want a central conflict for the whole campaign, here's some advice on how to do that".
@@theDMLair Fair enough. It might be best to try it out not with campaign-level central conflicts, but linked-adventure-level central conflicts, like the Slave Lords module series (A1-4) or the Desert of Desolation series (I3-5). You have linked adventures, but the DM and the players can see at the conclusion whether they are looking to extend that conflict or move on to something else. That said, great video!
@@theDMLair I've been finding mini-campaigns, say, tier-based campaigns, a good size for central conflicts. It allows the players to regularly experience resolutions but also keeps things cohesive. Also, the achievement of character goals, rather then a single central campaign-spanning baddie, is also a pretty satisfying way to put overarching narrative onto the full campaign.
@@lancelotscart582 Are you playing 5e? It seems that 5e has leaned into long plots with central conflicts, but you mentioned module play and that seems linked to older play styles and systems. I'm playing DCC right now and my group has really taken to the small model style play. I'll eventually go back to stories with a central conflict but I see the central conflict as something the players may or may not even affect. Like if you ran a game during a war, that's the central conflict, but it doesn't mean the players are in the army. Everywhere they go they meet NPCs on different sides of the war, with different views, and reasons for their views. That conflict is there as a backdrop, not something to be changed. This way you can drag and drop modules right into this world, and give the NPCs a view on the war, and you're ready to play. Hope this is useful:)
I think this can happen when players don't understand what the premise/conflict of a campaign is. Was in CoS with two people who didn't think that one of the main characters was in danger, so they had no motivation to help her/follow the questline surrounding the conflict. You have to show what it is using npcs, encounters, etc, instead of just handing people handouts. When I run the campaign I'm going to throw the handout in the garbage and have the story start with my players having dinner with the main character when Strahd attacks her. A good story looks at where the action starts and involves the players in it.
2:32 Establish the core conflict/concept, a summary of the overarching campaign - Who, What, When, Where, Why, How 3:07 WHO is inciting the conflict? (Perhaps begin your idea with a more generalized antagonist, like "Evil King" rather than "Red Dragon") 4:34 WHAT is the antagonist trying to ACCOMPLISH? 5:30 WHY is the antagonist doing this? 6:47 (Until) WHEN does this need to be done? (Under certain conditions, such as during the Winter Solstice, or a defined deadline) 7:54 WHERE does the campaign take place? (both the Campaign Setting and a location within) 9:28 HOW will the antagonist reach their objective? 10:54 Bringing it all together to form the overall CAMPAIGN concept, as well as milestones and other creatures involved 12:12 Do not go overboard; plan the starter adventures first, while looking into creatures you're interested in for the future. + How is CONFLICT created? 14:41 MINIONS, and what are they doing? (Either going by the norm, or through twists - kobolds serving dragons, or angels working with devils.) 16:34 How are the PLAYER CHARACTERS involved? 18:15 Look for inspiration - through the published Adventure Modules, or other games/series/movies you enjoy.
My current PCs are not aware that some of the main quests they are doing ARE leading to a big cross plot reveal, even across personal backstories It’s all connected, and the realisation will be epic
I love this. I agree 100% and now I'm going to HAVE TO (thanks, Luke) write a bunch of blog posts about my experiences with creating an overarching story for campaigns. BUT... This is just me punishing myself, but I LOVE to go ahead and use the character backstories to become an intrinsic part of the campaign. Not just to connect to it, but to sometimes establish it. It keeps the level of engagement waaaayyyy up there. BUT... I'm also very willing and able TO THROW OUT entire storylines and start creating new ones if characters die or a player leaves the group or what have you. I love the creative challenge. Usually, though, by the time such matters would become an issue, enough has happened that the rest of the party is now invested in stopping whatever evil is going on. I've generally made a point of doing two things when having players create their backstories, the main one of which is to include something that relates to why they've decided to do the initial adventure. What happened that led them there? The other is for the characters to have medium- and long-term goals (that can change!). Between the initial motivating force and those goals will be things that I, as the DM, can set up ways to resolve them that inform what adventures to make, whether those be side quests or even major campaign goals. I also like thinking of a campaign more like a comic book or a Bond movie. It doesn't necessarily have to have only one big bad guy. I've started to set up mini-campaigns around tiers of play. This way the players get to occasionally experience a fulfilling end to a major storyline on a more regular basis AND let's me be inspired by character backgrounds for the main stories of later tiers. (Again, to do this one has to be willing to throw things out the window when a character dies before starting that storyline.) I put clues and encounters related to every character's backgrounds and goals in as often as possible. I'll also sprinkle in clues and information related to the next major story in the current one being run. But I find it's nice to have a full resolution every so many levels. So my main bad guys are really designed to be the big bads for roughly 5 levels or so. Of course, the big bads of the following tiers have been busy, so you can drop hints and info about that in the current mini-campaign. (Be ready to abandon it!!!) Now, I'm glad Luke noted that you don't want to plan in such detail that you feel the need to railroad the PCs through YOUR story. It's everyone's story: You just built the scaffolding and only the scaffolding for the first floor. (Do you need scaffolding for a first floor? Maybe the framing then? Anyway...) Outside of the gist of the overall story (that can change immensely at any given moment!!! Yes. I'm emphasizing this.), I generally don't plan anything but the next session. Since the players have agency and the dice are the dice, literally anything can happen that will change everything afterward irrevocably and so planning too far ahead is just plain silly. It's not YOUR story SINGULAR. It's YOUR story PLURAL. The entire table, including you, are collectively creating what's ACTUALLY happening as opposed to what you've planned. But that shouldn't stop one from planning ahead--just not in detail--any more than from connecting characters to major plots. The key remains being okay with throwing out huge chunks of the plan if you need to. In fact, in 4 out of 5 times, I've found that that planning helps me with creating the new plan that's replacing the old plan. I can almost always maintain lots of the original work and just reskin parts of it to become something new and relevant. Did I mention being willing to throw plans out the window? I'll say it one more time, just in case: Be willing to throw plans out the window! (True for individual sessions. True for entire campaigns.)
I'm not a very frequent comment around this channel, but this is one of the best videos you've ever put out. The content is extremely well thought out and is a very useful insight into making a DM have a more concise narrative so that the adventure does not suffer and people do not flake. Truly this should be required viewing
@@zenith110 There isn't any such thing as "drifting". There isn't anything that is supposed to happen in a campaign. You can't get off track, because there is no track. Games aren't stories.
@@mrosskne @mrosskne I think that depends on the kind of game you're playing and you might not be considering how the game has evolved over the years. In 1974 you didn't need a reason to go to the dungeon because _you knew the dungeon was the content._ I'll do you one further, the modules of older DnD editions, how did they differ from one another? By level ranges, sure. By location, also correct. By setting, also. But the art on the page needed to be evocative. It needed to give you a moment in the story you got inspired by. "Let's play a campaign!" "OK, what's it about?" "Nothing in particular!" "Huh?" I know what you mean, and I know hat you're irritated by this concept that modern DnD is more concerned storytelling above playing the game, because I too have felt that frustration when a bad story ruined the game because it was poorly conceived or badly implemented. But every adventure is undoubtedly _about something._ You might argue that you can drop someone in your world anywhere and have them find something to do, but if you're just laying down the track in front of them what are they going to do? They're going to ask a random NPC that's nearby if something is happening and you either have already prepared quests or Adventures for them to do, which by the way is story. The game is the story is the game. It's ridiculous to say that it can't suffer drift, because it absolutely can. And I've seen it happen in the campaign I was just playing over the last two years. And it was awful to know that we essentially wasted three quarters of our time over a shifting narrative that didn't amount to a satisfying ending. All because the DM could not stick to one narrative. Is that a problem about the game being too much about the story absolutely, but that's exactly what this video is designed to fix. And taking any of the advice in this video would have helped that DM have a much better idea of how to avoid that problem in the first place.
I must be really lucky if this is actually a common problem. My players always stay on track with my main story lines. Even when I throw in side quests, they always get back on track without me having to say boo. I guess I'm just super blessed with great players. 🤗 This is not just regarding my current players either. I don't think I've ever had this problem. Again, pretty sure I've just had great people to game with consistently. Granted, I've been in a "player" in some games where this might have been part of the problem with those games being not fun and falling apart, but, it was never the whole or entire reason.
Idk. I mean i guess it comes down to how it is structured or what the point is. I ran a campaign once that was intentionally episodic. Meaning most sessions were ended the same night they were started. Sometimes the plot would last 2 or 3 sessions. The characters were the same and continued to grow in experience and i was able to have callbacks and reoccurring characters or storylines. So there really wasn't one plot but if one was interesting i could continue to call back to it. It was actually really entertaining and kept it fresh for everyone especially me the dm. I find myself getting tired of my story before my players do. Every night was a new story. It worked well for me.
Sometimes that's exactly what we want. No big huge end of the world story. Sometimes we want to just exist in the world and do things as they come along.
Lots of great advice here. One place to look for story through-lines that may be unexpected is concept albums. I have an idea for a Starfinder campaign based on Unleash The Archer's latest album. Iron Savior also has some crazy stories that could make great campaigns or one-shots. A lot of the time things are a little vague plot-wise and that makes it easier to fill with other stuff!
Concerning that red dragon's motivation: I tend to prefer less dramatic and bombastic motivations. The act of becoming a god is already wild, but lets humanize it, make the evil creature understandable. In my mind, he would be seeking power beyond power because when he was a very young hatchling, his brood was savaged by a rival dragon, leaving him the only survivor of it. So now, he wishes to never be a victim again, and will never feel safe until he is the MOST powerful. Its small and humanizing, and absolutely does nothing to justify his atrocities, but adds that literary "cycle of violence" kinda thing. In the end, the players may even want to try and talk him down, but of course, he's a Red Dragon.
I think this Video needs a Second part gor Campagne without BBEGs. I run a Campaign in a world where all magic and mystical beings were lost. At one point in time a strange phenomenon start to happened some of the magic returned but the magic brought back also some Monster. The Campaign is way more complicated than that but at its core its a fraction Intrige. And even with out going any deeper in this setting you can run a very driven adventure and can mess up and have a drifted completely derailed campaign
You can have mini-campaigns with big bads for every so many levels. But, yeah, you don't NEED a big bad. The "who" in this case might be magic itself or the "strange phenomenon". Is it a mystery that needs to be solved? Luke's point is that most (not all) players and tables like an overarching story. If there's no "bad guy" per se, then so be it. But is there something to be achieved by the end of the campaign? Save the world from something? The "bad guy" can be "nature". Perhaps that phenomenon might destroy the world if left unchecked. It used to be a thing to say all stories had at least one of three types of conflict: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and Man vs. Himself. If you have a narrative where the PCs are expected to accomplish something, you can assign your big bads accordingly.
I love player lead campaign drifting. See this can happen within a larger narrative arc. I am running two versions of the same overarcing story, and the players are drifting in very different directions. Its so much fun and helps me enhance the larger narrative. I got to tell you, not on board with the doom and gloom assessment of drifting. I actively love player led campaign drifting.
I think Luke means complete drifting. "Drifting" within a larger narrative arc, as you say, is collaborative storytelling! That's why he was saying not to get too detailed and railroad the PCs. His point is to have the larger narrative arc, which you do. So, at least based on what you typed, I think you're on the same page as Luke.
@@TheVTTDM I suppose then the title was mosleading for me. Or in that I still don't see what drifting too far would actually entail. If the players drift beyond your arc... then shift the arc... or abandon it. In anycase its all collaborative
@@atorng2172 I think it's in the definition. Although I don't like the title of the video partly for that reason. The "drift" that you're describing is essentially the same as saying "not railroading" which Luke actually refers to. This is one of the reasons why you don't want to make your plans too detailed too far ahead...what if the players make choices that lead them somewhere else??? The narrative arc is mainly working toward the goal of stopping whatever terrible thing might happen. The narrative you plan (and plans change!!!!) is mostly just how you, AT THE TIME, see whatever force is going to make the terrible thing happen make the terrible thing happen.
Its a problem if thats what you and your players agree is a problem, really. In your games, it might not be, and hella. Its a problem in some of mine where we set out with the express intent to follow a plot. And in others, Drifting is the plot. It's all about your groups goals!
There's a lot of "Sandbox" versus "Railroad" that we're dancing around. Red Dragon causing problems...party needs to stop it...and everything else can be player decisions. Or the whole thing is get the Thing before the Dragon and here is where it is. Using my 40 years of gaming experience, there's nothing wrong with either DM approach, and both are fun. If a player wants to do something in the Sunlight Citadel and I didn't really have anything planned about it at all, I'll throw in some combat or a Mysterious Stranger, end the session and get something ready for next session. Turns out the Sunlight Citadel has some useful stuff, who knew? Even though I had a Railroad planned, I still encouraged my players to do what they were interested in, even if it was something that originally wasn't even part of my adventure.
Checked you out after a long while, since the last time you've seemed too choleric for my taste, but I am noticing, you seem to be more mentally balanced being and up to my taste. Much love, take care, best of luck and health in your future and bye fellow Luke 😃🥰😇
Campaign drift is only bad if the players have a problem with it or the GM sucks at it. Campaign drift done right , results in a deeper and more realistic world.
When using novels or movies as inspiration remember, of course, that your campaign isn't a novel or movie. You can't control what the player characters are going to do, only how NPCs or the environment might be responding to their actions. Don't try and follow a storyline slavishly. Use motivations, methods, and settings but don't expect the party to act like the protagonists did.
My players always struggle to make a back story and so sometimes its like 5 campaigns in and they havent thought of a backstory. Can you give some way of helping ? I suppose theyre all too afraid of copying their favourite protagonists from tv and film. Whereas I think thats the best place to start. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, theres a section called "Long term ambitions/short term ambitions" and depending on whether the character completes them they get buffs and rewards and xp (forgive me if im being a noob and that this format is in other roleplay games) and so these ambitions are supposed to be or can be linked to backstories. But often times those boxes never get filled and I can never indulge that character in a way it deserves or celebrate the players imagination. Which is sad
I usually work that out as i go along. Sadly the other dm is an unimaginative cretin who jumped into the setting i was using because he was bored. I was in the process of moving my setting off exandria into a domain of dread so i could sort out a session zero as my game started off as a one shot whilst his campaign devolved into failed one shots! So my efforts had i stuck around would have failed as he would get bored again and try and steal my setting as he literally couldnt run a game of his own!
It seems if the bad guy has an elaborate set of steps they need to take, then we are introducing several points for the players to stop the bad guy. If the players get the tome first, then the bad guy is thwarted and a party of level 3 characters have defeated the level 25 monsters plan. Alternatively, it sets up the players for continuous failure because the steps all have to happen to get to the final boss. So the players either can't win until the end or they can win and beat the campaign prematurely.
Do you think the bad guy would let the players getting the tome first let that stop him? Unless he's dead or captured and has lost all his powers and influence, he's going to keep going after his goal. And the players will have to keep stopping him or trying to stop him.
I run pf2e adventure paths. Some are linear, some are more sandboxy (we started kingmaker not so long ago). First thing i ask to create characters for that specific campaighn so there's no "my character wouldn't want to participate in this". With a goal it's easy to stay on track and if players want some detours - we can talk about that.
The #1 problem you are seeing is why Lord of the Rings makes terrible D&D. Your game ends when that problem is overcome. I’ve never run a game that ended because there is no “ultimate destruction” to be prevented. There is always another few evil plots to be unraveled after one collapses. Collapsing one may set 2-3 in motion as well. What you described is an adventure with multiple stages, trying to tie everything back together to that core conflict is the definition of railroading. “Evil isn’t monolithic.” You can extend the life of a game by remembering that even the villains are trying to foil each other’s schemes. By creating a tapestry with dozens of loose threads to pull on, you create a more vibrant game that will continue when one or more villains get theirs in the end.
I've integrated my Campaign in the setting of "Ragnarok Online (MMORPG - type of game where nobody pays attention on story xD)" without telling my players. I used world map, characters and plots as a kick-off of my sandbox (changed almost all names), connected PC's back stories to main villains and let see what will happen. 😊
"Arch" is not pronounced like "ark". The ch is pronounced the same as in "chip" or "chin", etc. So "Arch Demon" is pronounced the same as "Archbishop", etc.
Question: If the villain wants to kidnap 5 metallic dragons to prepare the ritual, and each of those kidnappings is an adventure that the players are trying to thwart... How does the story continue if the players stop the kidnapping of a dragon? It seems like I have to establish a path for the dragon to succeed despite the players' best efforts. I may find myself in dangerous railroading territory, if the players have to fail their quests. Or alternatively, I may have to find alternate ways for the villain to achieve their goals if the player characters thwart a part of the villain's plan. Don't I have to map out an alternative at least in broad strokes while I plan? And doesn't that run the danger of making the players' successes feel meaningless?
Good point! I hadn't considered that. I would rework the conditions of the ritual then, provide alternatives, or have the bad dragon react to the PC's thwarting one kidnapping. Ohterwise, you're right; the GM would have to force the PCs to fail, otherwise they basically win after they stop the kidnapping of one dragon.
@@theDMLair Maybe it can work like this: If the villain succeeded in the first adventure (kobolds -> tome) it would have been an easy path to divinity because the book gave a great blueprint. Now that the kobolds failed, the red dragon has to do something more outrageous. Basically, every time the players win, they stopped an immediate catastrophe but force the dragon to do more and more desparate things. The players force the dragon into a corner. So, the challenges can get bigger as the campaign goes along. First, it's a library, then maybe a village built on fabled ruins, then the blood of those dragons, etc. The stakes and encounter difficulties get raised because of the players' success not despite it. Probably easier said than done.
Ah yes. UA-cam. Where younger DMs with less experience that don't know your players or their expectations can tell you the way you play is objectively wrong. 😜
This sounds like the long-running sandbox games that I am running through several groups and not a problem at all. They choose the entire direction that the game goes. I simply provide the different situations based on their actions or desires, but there is no "plot" or "story" to complete. My Borderlands sandbox already has over forty potential quests to go on in the world and they're only one quest #4. I'll end up making more quests based on what they do or don't do. But there is no BBEG or central story to play out.
Pointless wandering isn't much fun for me. I'd much rather have a reason to do things rather than just wander and stumble across encounter after encounter.
@@sleepinggiant4062 you do have reasons within the sandbox. You just don't have a pre-existing plan that you need to "enforce" and the story comes out of players (and npcs) doing their own thing depending on their needs and goals. It's way harder to run than a focused storyline tho. And can get boring and stale if you're not into that kind of thing really fast, as the players need to come up with goals and interesting things too AND there will not be a cohesive cinematic story.
@@sleepinggiant4062 there is never anything pointless about it.I'm just no doing the silly premade plotlines or storylines that players are made to follow. They literally have full freedom to take the quests and stories that interest them, ignore that ones that don't, and actually have the world react to what they do. Unlike what so many like to claim that "the players make the story" while running a linear game that the GM fully made the story and the players actually change nothing because everything had been preplanned. Here they have a host of local issues to interact with and not a forced story to follow.
@@yavvivvay there are always reasons in a sandbox for each adventure. The best part of a sandbox is that you build the world around the adventures that you create, even if they never go on said adventures. I prepopulate the world with dozens of adventures before the players even begin. This way they actually hear about events or fears of things happening before they happen that entices them to go to see for themselves. I don't have to force them to go to said location, they do it on their own accord if they're interested in it. The world then begins to feel more realistic because they actually have an impact on it, actually do alter the world, they also have freedom to seek out their own goals or desires. A totally open-ended game in which neither they nor I know where it will go or how it will end when they decide to end it.
@@Doodle1776 umm yes, I said there are reasons in a sandbox? The thing is you are dependent on players to cooperate. If you have passive players it will fall off very bad very soon. The players need to take agency of what will they do/plan/want and an active role in pursuing their goals. That isn't everyones cup of tea. Some people like less agency and more of a railroad type story where they are free in "how" and not in the "why" department. That is also ok and not "silly" ;) There is no correct way to have fun with tabletop.
I really like the concepts presented here but Im struggling to apply them to a sandbox campaign. There is no "pre-defined" villain. PC actions and their consequences determine events. However, I am faced with a similar situation as the first 3 minutes of your video describe. Not that they're unhappy with the play. They just seem to... well... drift LOL
OCD viewers couldn't hear you because they are distracted by the Beastiary book set between Beastiary 2 and Beastiary 3. It's out of order. It's out of order. It's out of order. It's out of order. ;)
Ahem, thethan’s DND manifesto: Rule 2: Save your epic story for the book Rule 3: Your players are not an audience Rule 4: Let the players take the reins, and their characters will write the story Rule 18: Stop writing, start playing
Your bestiaries behind you are in the wrong order. I find a lot of this advice helpful as a writer. It gives a slightly different perspective, but then I also have to take into consideration that I am writing a railroad. However, it's good to remember that the motivations of each character is important, even if I'm controlling all of them, and they may often go crosswise to the plot goal.
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When I listen to you, it sounds so straight forward that I want to dive right in. Fantastic job summarizing how to start thinking about your central campaign theme and developing it. Outstandingly motivating. Thank you so much.
Thank you! Happy to help!!! :D
Setting can be HUGE inspiration.
My friend wanted to be a lizardfolk in a swamp, so asked me to run a one shot. I decided to place it in the mere of dead men.
Lets just say.. after reading into the lore of the mere, and then neverwinter as the nearest city-state, i’m now like 7 sessions deep into a massive campaign with my players. Established lore can be such a helpful jumping point for homebrew campaigns.
Exactly. When im home-brewing a campaign, I always spend at least a month creating a design doc for the setting. I don't care if im using a prestablished setting or my own, I will have a 10-20 page document of details I need to keep in mind when im running. It lets me have answers when i need them already prepared. helps so much with keeping on task.
Yeah, reminds me of how mid the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign is. I just finished running it as my first DMed campaign
Throughout the campaign, it mentions these cults that are trying to bring princes of elemental evil to the material plane to wreak havoc, and that long ago there were drow that worshiped something called the Elder Elemental Eye, but that's not really explored at all
*Now.* Would you have guessed this minor figure mentioned like twice throughout the campaign is one of the oldest gods, Therizdun, who is known for not only letting the Far Realm manifest in the universe, but ALSO for planting the Seed of Evil and creating THE ABYSS? Of course not, because there's literally no importance placed on that plot point
Not to mention Therizdun has been sealed away and people over time have attempted to bring him back, meaning this campaign easily could have incorporated him into the plot.
That, plus the very straightforward dungeons with no particular complexity to them kinda undermines the campaign a lot. It heavily underutilizes a cool plot idea and is boring
I usually use “where” as my starting point. I like creating settings and my home brew has conflicts built into them so it’s pretty easy to hitch adventures and campaigns to existing setting conflicts.
Conflicts are the result of players making decisions in the world. Not DM decisions.
To share this, I'd need to know another GM, but that GM is always me... *cry*
I was in a 1-20 d&d campaign that took ~68 in-game days to get to lvl 20 and a boon. We then got a year of downtime to prepare ourselves (and the whole world that we were the champions of) for the final cataclysmic boss fight.
Was a good time, wasn't much drifting once we found the main menacing plot, and we were invested into it. About 2.5 years to play that all out.
>boss fight
yikes.
I guess I don't agree with the main premise here, viz. that every campaign needs a central conflict. Episodic gaming, or a series of adventures linked not by a central conflict, but by a cast of PCs (which overlap, but will likely change over the course of the campaign) is a very enjoyable way to play. So, I think the advice here shouldn't be "you need a central conflict for the whole campaign and here's how to do it" but rather "IF you want a central conflict for the whole campaign, here's some advice on how to do that".
Not every group wants or needs a central conflict, but they'll only know what they might be missing if they try it.
@@theDMLair Fair enough. It might be best to try it out not with campaign-level central conflicts, but linked-adventure-level central conflicts, like the Slave Lords module series (A1-4) or the Desert of Desolation series (I3-5). You have linked adventures, but the DM and the players can see at the conclusion whether they are looking to extend that conflict or move on to something else. That said, great video!
@@theDMLair I've been finding mini-campaigns, say, tier-based campaigns, a good size for central conflicts. It allows the players to regularly experience resolutions but also keeps things cohesive. Also, the achievement of character goals, rather then a single central campaign-spanning baddie, is also a pretty satisfying way to put overarching narrative onto the full campaign.
@@lancelotscart582 See what I just responded to theDMLair with.
@@lancelotscart582 Are you playing 5e? It seems that 5e has leaned into long plots with central conflicts, but you mentioned module play and that seems linked to older play styles and systems. I'm playing DCC right now and my group has really taken to the small model style play.
I'll eventually go back to stories with a central conflict but I see the central conflict as something the players may or may not even affect. Like if you ran a game during a war, that's the central conflict, but it doesn't mean the players are in the army. Everywhere they go they meet NPCs on different sides of the war, with different views, and reasons for their views. That conflict is there as a backdrop, not something to be changed. This way you can drag and drop modules right into this world, and give the NPCs a view on the war, and you're ready to play. Hope this is useful:)
I think this can happen when players don't understand what the premise/conflict of a campaign is. Was in CoS with two people who didn't think that one of the main characters was in danger, so they had no motivation to help her/follow the questline surrounding the conflict. You have to show what it is using npcs, encounters, etc, instead of just handing people handouts. When I run the campaign I'm going to throw the handout in the garbage and have the story start with my players having dinner with the main character when Strahd attacks her. A good story looks at where the action starts and involves the players in it.
There isn't "the conflict" of a campaign. It's not a story.
@@mrosskne get a life dude, geez.
2:32 Establish the core conflict/concept, a summary of the overarching campaign - Who, What, When, Where, Why, How
3:07 WHO is inciting the conflict? (Perhaps begin your idea with a more generalized antagonist, like "Evil King" rather than "Red Dragon")
4:34 WHAT is the antagonist trying to ACCOMPLISH?
5:30 WHY is the antagonist doing this?
6:47 (Until) WHEN does this need to be done? (Under certain conditions, such as during the Winter Solstice, or a defined deadline)
7:54 WHERE does the campaign take place? (both the Campaign Setting and a location within)
9:28 HOW will the antagonist reach their objective?
10:54 Bringing it all together to form the overall CAMPAIGN concept, as well as milestones and other creatures involved
12:12 Do not go overboard; plan the starter adventures first, while looking into creatures you're interested in for the future. + How is CONFLICT created?
14:41 MINIONS, and what are they doing? (Either going by the norm, or through twists - kobolds serving dragons, or angels working with devils.)
16:34 How are the PLAYER CHARACTERS involved?
18:15 Look for inspiration - through the published Adventure Modules, or other games/series/movies you enjoy.
I swear doing what we need.
"I forgot what the video was about, help m e" summary. 😂
Games aren't stories.
My current PCs are not aware that some of the main quests they are doing ARE leading to a big cross plot reveal, even across personal backstories
It’s all connected, and the realisation will be epic
cringe
@@mrosskne so do you just comment about how you hate D&D?
There isn't any plot reveal. Games aren't stories.
@@mrosskne “games aren’t stories” sounds like you have never played a TTRPG
@@thomasace2547 Sounds like I have and am far more intelligent than you, you mean.
This is perfect! I’m preparing a brand new campaign right now!!
I love this. I agree 100% and now I'm going to HAVE TO (thanks, Luke) write a bunch of blog posts about my experiences with creating an overarching story for campaigns. BUT...
This is just me punishing myself, but I LOVE to go ahead and use the character backstories to become an intrinsic part of the campaign. Not just to connect to it, but to sometimes establish it. It keeps the level of engagement waaaayyyy up there. BUT... I'm also very willing and able TO THROW OUT entire storylines and start creating new ones if characters die or a player leaves the group or what have you. I love the creative challenge. Usually, though, by the time such matters would become an issue, enough has happened that the rest of the party is now invested in stopping whatever evil is going on.
I've generally made a point of doing two things when having players create their backstories, the main one of which is to include something that relates to why they've decided to do the initial adventure. What happened that led them there? The other is for the characters to have medium- and long-term goals (that can change!). Between the initial motivating force and those goals will be things that I, as the DM, can set up ways to resolve them that inform what adventures to make, whether those be side quests or even major campaign goals.
I also like thinking of a campaign more like a comic book or a Bond movie. It doesn't necessarily have to have only one big bad guy. I've started to set up mini-campaigns around tiers of play. This way the players get to occasionally experience a fulfilling end to a major storyline on a more regular basis AND let's me be inspired by character backgrounds for the main stories of later tiers. (Again, to do this one has to be willing to throw things out the window when a character dies before starting that storyline.) I put clues and encounters related to every character's backgrounds and goals in as often as possible. I'll also sprinkle in clues and information related to the next major story in the current one being run. But I find it's nice to have a full resolution every so many levels. So my main bad guys are really designed to be the big bads for roughly 5 levels or so. Of course, the big bads of the following tiers have been busy, so you can drop hints and info about that in the current mini-campaign. (Be ready to abandon it!!!)
Now, I'm glad Luke noted that you don't want to plan in such detail that you feel the need to railroad the PCs through YOUR story. It's everyone's story: You just built the scaffolding and only the scaffolding for the first floor. (Do you need scaffolding for a first floor? Maybe the framing then? Anyway...)
Outside of the gist of the overall story (that can change immensely at any given moment!!! Yes. I'm emphasizing this.), I generally don't plan anything but the next session. Since the players have agency and the dice are the dice, literally anything can happen that will change everything afterward irrevocably and so planning too far ahead is just plain silly. It's not YOUR story SINGULAR. It's YOUR story PLURAL. The entire table, including you, are collectively creating what's ACTUALLY happening as opposed to what you've planned.
But that shouldn't stop one from planning ahead--just not in detail--any more than from connecting characters to major plots. The key remains being okay with throwing out huge chunks of the plan if you need to. In fact, in 4 out of 5 times, I've found that that planning helps me with creating the new plan that's replacing the old plan. I can almost always maintain lots of the original work and just reskin parts of it to become something new and relevant.
Did I mention being willing to throw plans out the window? I'll say it one more time, just in case: Be willing to throw plans out the window! (True for individual sessions. True for entire campaigns.)
Games aren't stories.
I'm not a very frequent comment around this channel, but this is one of the best videos you've ever put out. The content is extremely well thought out and is a very useful insight into making a DM have a more concise narrative so that the adventure does not suffer and people do not flake. Truly this should be required viewing
Thank you!!!
Too bad it's wrong.
@@mrosskne how, exactly?
@@zenith110 There isn't any such thing as "drifting". There isn't anything that is supposed to happen in a campaign. You can't get off track, because there is no track. Games aren't stories.
@@mrosskne @mrosskne I think that depends on the kind of game you're playing and you might not be considering how the game has evolved over the years.
In 1974 you didn't need a reason to go to the dungeon because _you knew the dungeon was the content._ I'll do you one further, the modules of older DnD editions, how did they differ from one another? By level ranges, sure. By location, also correct. By setting, also. But the art on the page needed to be evocative. It needed to give you a moment in the story you got inspired by.
"Let's play a campaign!"
"OK, what's it about?"
"Nothing in particular!"
"Huh?"
I know what you mean, and I know hat you're irritated by this concept that modern DnD is more concerned storytelling above playing the game, because I too have felt that frustration when a bad story ruined the game because it was poorly conceived or badly implemented. But every adventure is undoubtedly _about something._
You might argue that you can drop someone in your world anywhere and have them find something to do, but if you're just laying down the track in front of them what are they going to do? They're going to ask a random NPC that's nearby if something is happening and you either have already prepared quests or Adventures for them to do, which by the way is story. The game is the story is the game. It's ridiculous to say that it can't suffer drift, because it absolutely can. And I've seen it happen in the campaign I was just playing over the last two years. And it was awful to know that we essentially wasted three quarters of our time over a shifting narrative that didn't amount to a satisfying ending. All because the DM could not stick to one narrative.
Is that a problem about the game being too much about the story absolutely, but that's exactly what this video is designed to fix. And taking any of the advice in this video would have helped that DM have a much better idea of how to avoid that problem in the first place.
I generally prefer theme-free or emergent-theme campaigns.
I must be really lucky if this is actually a common problem. My players always stay on track with my main story lines. Even when I throw in side quests, they always get back on track without me having to say boo. I guess I'm just super blessed with great players. 🤗 This is not just regarding my current players either. I don't think I've ever had this problem. Again, pretty sure I've just had great people to game with consistently.
Granted, I've been in a "player" in some games where this might have been part of the problem with those games being not fun and falling apart, but, it was never the whole or entire reason.
Games aren't stories.
Many fine ideas in this, especially the first one.
I love ALL the DM Lair videos!!!! ❤
Idk. I mean i guess it comes down to how it is structured or what the point is. I ran a campaign once that was intentionally episodic. Meaning most sessions were ended the same night they were started. Sometimes the plot would last 2 or 3 sessions. The characters were the same and continued to grow in experience and i was able to have callbacks and reoccurring characters or storylines. So there really wasn't one plot but if one was interesting i could continue to call back to it. It was actually really entertaining and kept it fresh for everyone especially me the dm. I find myself getting tired of my story before my players do. Every night was a new story. It worked well for me.
Yes everyone at the table needs to have fun
Good tips
Sometimes that's exactly what we want. No big huge end of the world story. Sometimes we want to just exist in the world and do things as they come along.
Rogues and Bards make great sandbox characters
Lots of great advice here. One place to look for story through-lines that may be unexpected is concept albums. I have an idea for a Starfinder campaign based on Unleash The Archer's latest album. Iron Savior also has some crazy stories that could make great campaigns or one-shots. A lot of the time things are a little vague plot-wise and that makes it easier to fill with other stuff!
Terrible advice. Games aren't stories.
Concerning that red dragon's motivation: I tend to prefer less dramatic and bombastic motivations. The act of becoming a god is already wild, but lets humanize it, make the evil creature understandable. In my mind, he would be seeking power beyond power because when he was a very young hatchling, his brood was savaged by a rival dragon, leaving him the only survivor of it. So now, he wishes to never be a victim again, and will never feel safe until he is the MOST powerful.
Its small and humanizing, and absolutely does nothing to justify his atrocities, but adds that literary "cycle of violence" kinda thing. In the end, the players may even want to try and talk him down, but of course, he's a Red Dragon.
Monsters aren't supposed to have motivations. They exist to provide treasure and XP to players. Games aren't stories.
@@mrosskne in this case red dragon isn't just a monster, but a character. And characters must have personality and motive
@@georgeuferov1497 No.
I think this Video needs a Second part gor Campagne without BBEGs. I run a Campaign in a world where all magic and mystical beings were lost. At one point in time a strange phenomenon start to happened some of the magic returned but the magic brought back also some Monster. The Campaign is way more complicated than that but at its core its a fraction Intrige. And even with out going any deeper in this setting you can run a very driven adventure and can mess up and have a drifted completely derailed campaign
You can have mini-campaigns with big bads for every so many levels. But, yeah, you don't NEED a big bad. The "who" in this case might be magic itself or the "strange phenomenon". Is it a mystery that needs to be solved?
Luke's point is that most (not all) players and tables like an overarching story. If there's no "bad guy" per se, then so be it. But is there something to be achieved by the end of the campaign? Save the world from something? The "bad guy" can be "nature". Perhaps that phenomenon might destroy the world if left unchecked.
It used to be a thing to say all stories had at least one of three types of conflict: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and Man vs. Himself. If you have a narrative where the PCs are expected to accomplish something, you can assign your big bads accordingly.
I have a couple ideas for the final villain of my campaign, but I'm still working on it. This video is a good one for me at this time 😊
>final villain
I love player lead campaign drifting. See this can happen within a larger narrative arc.
I am running two versions of the same overarcing story, and the players are drifting in very different directions.
Its so much fun and helps me enhance the larger narrative.
I got to tell you, not on board with the doom and gloom assessment of drifting.
I actively love player led campaign drifting.
I think Luke means complete drifting. "Drifting" within a larger narrative arc, as you say, is collaborative storytelling! That's why he was saying not to get too detailed and railroad the PCs.
His point is to have the larger narrative arc, which you do. So, at least based on what you typed, I think you're on the same page as Luke.
@@TheVTTDM I suppose then the title was mosleading for me.
Or in that I still don't see what drifting too far would actually entail.
If the players drift beyond your arc... then shift the arc... or abandon it.
In anycase its all collaborative
@@atorng2172 I think it's in the definition. Although I don't like the title of the video partly for that reason.
The "drift" that you're describing is essentially the same as saying "not railroading" which Luke actually refers to. This is one of the reasons why you don't want to make your plans too detailed too far ahead...what if the players make choices that lead them somewhere else??? The narrative arc is mainly working toward the goal of stopping whatever terrible thing might happen. The narrative you plan (and plans change!!!!) is mostly just how you, AT THE TIME, see whatever force is going to make the terrible thing happen make the terrible thing happen.
Thanks for the tip on Czepeku
I fundamentally disagree that “drifting” is even a problem.
Its a problem if thats what you and your players agree is a problem, really. In your games, it might not be, and hella. Its a problem in some of mine where we set out with the express intent to follow a plot. And in others, Drifting is the plot. It's all about your groups goals!
I call it roaming.
There's a lot of "Sandbox" versus "Railroad" that we're dancing around. Red Dragon causing problems...party needs to stop it...and everything else can be player decisions. Or the whole thing is get the Thing before the Dragon and here is where it is. Using my 40 years of gaming experience, there's nothing wrong with either DM approach, and both are fun. If a player wants to do something in the Sunlight Citadel and I didn't really have anything planned about it at all, I'll throw in some combat or a Mysterious Stranger, end the session and get something ready for next session. Turns out the Sunlight Citadel has some useful stuff, who knew? Even though I had a Railroad planned, I still encouraged my players to do what they were interested in, even if it was something that originally wasn't even part of my adventure.
Checked you out after a long while, since the last time you've seemed too choleric for my taste, but I am noticing, you seem to be more mentally balanced being and up to my taste. Much love, take care, best of luck and health in your future and bye fellow Luke 😃🥰😇
Campaign drift is only bad if the players have a problem with it or the GM sucks at it.
Campaign drift done right , results in a deeper and more realistic world.
There's no such thing as drift. Games aren't stories and the DM isn't an author.
My best campaigns have been 3 years of drifting each.
When using novels or movies as inspiration remember, of course, that your campaign isn't a novel or movie. You can't control what the player characters are going to do, only how NPCs or the environment might be responding to their actions. Don't try and follow a storyline slavishly. Use motivations, methods, and settings but don't expect the party to act like the protagonists did.
100% agree!
10:58 "The 5 Ys"
Yoo, Yat, Yen, Yher, Yhaiy?
No.
My players always struggle to make a back story and so sometimes its like 5 campaigns in and they havent thought of a backstory. Can you give some way of helping ? I suppose theyre all too afraid of copying their favourite protagonists from tv and film. Whereas I think thats the best place to start.
In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, theres a section called "Long term ambitions/short term ambitions" and depending on whether the character completes them they get buffs and rewards and xp (forgive me if im being a noob and that this format is in other roleplay games) and so these ambitions are supposed to be or can be linked to backstories. But often times those boxes never get filled and I can never indulge that character in a way it deserves or celebrate the players imagination.
Which is sad
Characters shouldn't have backstories. It's a game. Not a book.
I usually work that out as i go along.
Sadly the other dm is an unimaginative cretin who jumped into the setting i was using because he was bored.
I was in the process of moving my setting off exandria into a domain of dread so i could sort out a session zero as my game started off as a one shot whilst his campaign devolved into failed one shots!
So my efforts had i stuck around would have failed as he would get bored again and try and steal my setting as he literally couldnt run a game of his own!
It seems if the bad guy has an elaborate set of steps they need to take, then we are introducing several points for the players to stop the bad guy. If the players get the tome first, then the bad guy is thwarted and a party of level 3 characters have defeated the level 25 monsters plan. Alternatively, it sets up the players for continuous failure because the steps all have to happen to get to the final boss. So the players either can't win until the end or they can win and beat the campaign prematurely.
Do you think the bad guy would let the players getting the tome first let that stop him? Unless he's dead or captured and has lost all his powers and influence, he's going to keep going after his goal. And the players will have to keep stopping him or trying to stop him.
Great advice
Your Pathfinder Bestiary books are out of order and distracted me lol
I run pf2e adventure paths. Some are linear, some are more sandboxy (we started kingmaker not so long ago). First thing i ask to create characters for that specific campaighn so there's no "my character wouldn't want to participate in this". With a goal it's easy to stay on track and if players want some detours - we can talk about that.
The #1 problem you are seeing is why Lord of the Rings makes terrible D&D. Your game ends when that problem is overcome.
I’ve never run a game that ended because there is no “ultimate destruction” to be prevented. There is always another few evil plots to be unraveled after one collapses. Collapsing one may set 2-3 in motion as well.
What you described is an adventure with multiple stages, trying to tie everything back together to that core conflict is the definition of railroading.
“Evil isn’t monolithic.” You can extend the life of a game by remembering that even the villains are trying to foil each other’s schemes. By creating a tapestry with dozens of loose threads to pull on, you create a more vibrant game that will continue when one or more villains get theirs in the end.
Since when have you been a DM Luke?
I've integrated my Campaign in the setting of "Ragnarok Online (MMORPG - type of game where nobody pays attention on story xD)" without telling my players. I used world map, characters and plots as a kick-off of my sandbox (changed almost all names), connected PC's back stories to main villains and let see what will happen. 😊
Campaign drifting just sounds like open world.
"Arch" is not pronounced like "ark". The ch is pronounced the same as in "chip" or "chin", etc.
So "Arch Demon" is pronounced the same as "Archbishop", etc.
Unless there is a vowel after the h. Then it is a hard ch like archangel.
Thank you!!
I have to say there must be exceptions. Archenemy is uses the ch sound rather than the k.
Question: If the villain wants to kidnap 5 metallic dragons to prepare the ritual, and each of those kidnappings is an adventure that the players are trying to thwart... How does the story continue if the players stop the kidnapping of a dragon? It seems like I have to establish a path for the dragon to succeed despite the players' best efforts. I may find myself in dangerous railroading territory, if the players have to fail their quests. Or alternatively, I may have to find alternate ways for the villain to achieve their goals if the player characters thwart a part of the villain's plan. Don't I have to map out an alternative at least in broad strokes while I plan? And doesn't that run the danger of making the players' successes feel meaningless?
Good point! I hadn't considered that. I would rework the conditions of the ritual then, provide alternatives, or have the bad dragon react to the PC's thwarting one kidnapping. Ohterwise, you're right; the GM would have to force the PCs to fail, otherwise they basically win after they stop the kidnapping of one dragon.
@@theDMLair Maybe it can work like this: If the villain succeeded in the first adventure (kobolds -> tome) it would have been an easy path to divinity because the book gave a great blueprint. Now that the kobolds failed, the red dragon has to do something more outrageous. Basically, every time the players win, they stopped an immediate catastrophe but force the dragon to do more and more desparate things. The players force the dragon into a corner. So, the challenges can get bigger as the campaign goes along. First, it's a library, then maybe a village built on fabled ruins, then the blood of those dragons, etc.
The stakes and encounter difficulties get raised because of the players' success not despite it.
Probably easier said than done.
Ah yes. UA-cam. Where younger DMs with less experience that don't know your players or their expectations can tell you the way you play is objectively wrong. 😜
is that thumbnail ai? kinda looks like it is
This sounds like the long-running sandbox games that I am running through several groups and not a problem at all. They choose the entire direction that the game goes. I simply provide the different situations based on their actions or desires, but there is no "plot" or "story" to complete. My Borderlands sandbox already has over forty potential quests to go on in the world and they're only one quest #4. I'll end up making more quests based on what they do or don't do. But there is no BBEG or central story to play out.
Pointless wandering isn't much fun for me. I'd much rather have a reason to do things rather than just wander and stumble across encounter after encounter.
@@sleepinggiant4062 you do have reasons within the sandbox. You just don't have a pre-existing plan that you need to "enforce" and the story comes out of players (and npcs) doing their own thing depending on their needs and goals.
It's way harder to run than a focused storyline tho. And can get boring and stale if you're not into that kind of thing really fast, as the players need to come up with goals and interesting things too AND there will not be a cohesive cinematic story.
@@sleepinggiant4062 there is never anything pointless about it.I'm just no doing the silly premade plotlines or storylines that players are made to follow. They literally have full freedom to take the quests and stories that interest them, ignore that ones that don't, and actually have the world react to what they do. Unlike what so many like to claim that "the players make the story" while running a linear game that the GM fully made the story and the players actually change nothing because everything had been preplanned. Here they have a host of local issues to interact with and not a forced story to follow.
@@yavvivvay there are always reasons in a sandbox for each adventure. The best part of a sandbox is that you build the world around the adventures that you create, even if they never go on said adventures. I prepopulate the world with dozens of adventures before the players even begin. This way they actually hear about events or fears of things happening before they happen that entices them to go to see for themselves. I don't have to force them to go to said location, they do it on their own accord if they're interested in it. The world then begins to feel more realistic because they actually have an impact on it, actually do alter the world, they also have freedom to seek out their own goals or desires. A totally open-ended game in which neither they nor I know where it will go or how it will end when they decide to end it.
@@Doodle1776 umm yes, I said there are reasons in a sandbox?
The thing is you are dependent on players to cooperate. If you have passive players it will fall off very bad very soon. The players need to take agency of what will they do/plan/want and an active role in pursuing their goals.
That isn't everyones cup of tea. Some people like less agency and more of a railroad type story where they are free in "how" and not in the "why" department. That is also ok and not "silly" ;)
There is no correct way to have fun with tabletop.
I really like the concepts presented here but Im struggling to apply them to a sandbox campaign. There is no "pre-defined" villain. PC actions and their consequences determine events. However, I am faced with a similar situation as the first 3 minutes of your video describe. Not that they're unhappy with the play. They just seem to... well... drift LOL
OCD viewers couldn't hear you because they are distracted by the Beastiary book set between Beastiary 2 and Beastiary 3. It's out of order. It's out of order. It's out of order. It's out of order. ;)
Is this a challenge to see how much more out of order I can make my books? I enjoy challenges. :)
I love Bacon!!
Shit out to The Dark One!
Ahem, thethan’s DND manifesto:
Rule 2: Save your epic story for the book
Rule 3: Your players are not an audience
Rule 4: Let the players take the reins, and their characters will write the story
Rule 18: Stop writing, start playing
Dejavu
Your bestiaries behind you are in the wrong order.
I find a lot of this advice helpful as a writer. It gives a slightly different perspective, but then I also have to take into consideration that I am writing a railroad. However, it's good to remember that the motivations of each character is important, even if I'm controlling all of them, and they may often go crosswise to the plot goal.
Almost first possibly xD
Sorry, but you see that tent over there... ya that's mine. I've been in this comment section for this video since last Tuesday.
@@galacticdragonfilms445 hahaha
You can both be first, right?
@@theDMLair only if he gives me a crisp high five. Lol
@@galacticdragonfilms445 you got it brother 🫸
There's no such thing as drifting because there isn't anything that's supposed to happen. Games aren't stories.