Thanks for taking the time to try all these tests, it's very good to see! A couple thoughts: It's clear you ran into CPU overloads well before you managed to oversaturate 64GB RAM with Kontakt. But I think it's too early to draw any final conclusions from this. We shouldn't understate the impact of Kontakt still running as Rosetta 2 translated x86-AS code here. Rosetta 2 does an amazing job for what it is, but it's still an automated process. Typically with automatic code translation, you don't lose as much efficiency/performance when the software in question is pretty high-level, leveraging a lot of standard system frameworks. But when you're talking about an AU plug in - one which can also easily make a lot of demands on both the CPU and the entire RAM-SSD subsystem like Kontakt does - it's almost certainly the case that a lot of very x86-specific optimisations were made along the way which Rosetta 2, as good as it is, can't replicate in an AS-specific equivalent. This is why we obviously need the developers and coders to step in. At first to fully _understand_ what the new architecture offers, and then to rethink and redesign how their software works under the hood to make the best use of it. Also we shouldn't forget that Kontakt is actually quite ancient in software terms. It's quite likely bloated with a lot of legacy code for backwards compatibility with old libraries - legacy code that could easily generate a bunch of useless CPU overhead which Rosetta 2 (being an automated process, not an intelligent human coder) isn't able to ignore or improve. Not to mention that Kontakt's own customisable memory and drive caching schemes were developed as far back as when computers with external FireWire drives were the norm. Who knows how much more efficient (and importantly - less demanding on CPU) it could run if/when this entire subsystem is re-tuned for the new status quo of M1 Pro/Max machines with their ridiculously fast and wide memory bandwidth. Right now, Kontakt could be wasting a lot of CPU cycles micromanaging its memory/swap system to a degree that just isn't needed anymore, simply because the severe bottlenecks they were (cleverly) designed to overcome just aren't a thing anymore. A Rosetta 2 translated instance of Kontakt is just going to slavishly recreate (as best it can) exactly the same process here. But a redesigned AS-native version could be built from the ground up with a fundamentally different playback engine, one that doesn't need to waste precious CPU cycles running an outdated memory/swap scheme that was designed to fix a problem that no longer exists. All this to say that when it comes to software/plug ins going native on AS, Kontakt is quite possibly one of the ones which stands to gain more of a performance boost than many others. But of course this really comes down to Native Instruments and how much time (and how many resources in terms of developer/coder time and money) they choose to put into this. They're already sitting pretty as the industry standard sampler, so it could honestly go either way... They could choose to just keep things as they are under the hood, essentially just converting it all to AS-native code while fixing only the most obvious things Rosetta 2 didn't do well. After all they still dominate the 3rd party sound library market by far, so it's not like they _need_ to make a performance/efficiency leap to stay ahead. Or, they could choose to use the move to Apple Silicon as a major update moment, coming out with a completely rebuilt playback engine to kick things off for the next 10 years. That would be awesome, but my fear is they'll be more concerned about breaking backwards compatibility with their major sound library partners - especially with the complex and very effective scripting they use. So sadly, it's possible the best technological decision might not end up being the best business decision for them. Anyway thanks again for doing these demos! Even with Kontakt/Logic under Rosetta 2 translation, the results you got are still fantastic for me. I recently scored a Netflix series for which I had to set up and work in a different country away from my studio. They provided me with a top spec 2018 15" MacBook Pro onto which I cloned my composing setup, with sound library on external SSD. That machine was a total disaster, a nightmare to work with especially compared to what you demonstrated here. It overheated instantly just from driving external displays (a non-negotiable when composing to picture!), and then throttled the CPU down to the point of being unusable, even on moderate cues without too many synths and Kontakt tracks. In fact it was so bad, it even literally shut down in the middle of a session with the director and show runner because the battery ran out - _while it was connected to AC_ !! Turns out it drew so much power just trying to keep up, the charger couldn't provide enough energy and also charge the battery at the same time. And of course the fan noise was constant and unbearable. It's so good that all of this is now a thing of the past, even if the new MacBook Pros aren't yet perfect... :)
Wow, thanks for the in-depth response. I think you have really valid points, it'll be interesting to see what NI ends up doing. I'd love to see other new features like Mic-Merging from SINE Player and a better/updated GUI. For most work, I think the computer is plenty powerful too. It was only surprising that of all things it was the CPU overloading before the fans kicked in or the RAM was swapping, but the sheer number of tracks it could easily handle was amazing.
@@DIDCHOI no problem! Re the CPU performance, honestly I think it's a pity Apple decided to go with just two variants (Pro/Max), with GPU core count being the only main differentiator between the two. Would have been great if there were the option to order an M1 Max processor with more CPU cores (say, two more performance cores), even if the tradeoff for this was having a maximum of only 16 GPU cores in order to remain within the maximum power/thermal budget the SOC can handle. I mean, I get why they didn't do this. Most of the customers for the highest-spec MacBook Pro's want both the best CPU and GPU on offer. So I doubt it would have gone over too well if there was a MacBook Pro configuration on sale with the highest CPU performance you could get... but without the possibility of also having the best GPU. Ironically for us in music production (and I'm sure in other industries too), this would actually be an ideal option. We don't need anywhere _near_ the top GPU specs on offer these days - most of us just need to drive an external display or two and that's it. So we'll take as much CPU power as you can give us, and as long as the GPU is just enough to not be a hindrance, it's fine. But unfortunately we're a niche market that hasn't been addressed quite as directly as video pros have been this time around. Maybe in a couple of generations time when Apple Silicon is more settled in they'll get around to offering a wider range of CPU/GPU choices that could advantage us more.
@@tbirdparis Yeah, we musicians didn't get the perfect combo. I'd love to see a high core CPU, 128GB RAM, and decent GPU type. But I guess the market is too small for that
@@DIDCHOI Not sure 🤔 what you mean by “musician market”, but you can get what you’re asking for in an iMac 🖥 or Mac Pro….. Do you mean that there isn’t a laptop 💻 with those specs? Or a laptop 💻 of that spec within your desired budget?? Curious about the perspective 🙇🏻
When you write a piece in contact, you can set the standard sound quality without improving the quality of samples. And when the track is ready and recorded during rendering, you can enable quality enhancements in contact. This will give less load on the CPU
Keep going, you'll hit 100,000. Tutorials on how to write orchestral music would be great -- maybe a series on how you build an orchestral piece, from where do you start (piano?) to how you plan it out, etc. I want to learn that and also how to read and write orchestral scores. They seem complex in terms of how many tracks/instruments there are, though sometimes each track is very simple. PS: I work on an M1 Air in Ableton Live, with Spitfire libraries on a fast external drive.
Thanks! I know @orchestrationonline has a lot of great content. I learned a lot from Thomas’ videos in the early days. Getting a good book, Adler, and score reading a lot, transcribing a lot is the best way to learn the small intricate stuff that are difficult to say in words too. But I might do some orchestration tips too!
This Video is what I was looking for! Since 3 Weeks every day searching the whole UA-cam if some one is testing the M1 Max whit 64 GB RAM and some heavy Orchestra Kontakt Sample Libraries for Film Scoring. Please do more Videos like this. So we all know if it's worth it to buy the m1 Max with 64Gigs of RAM
Thanks very much for the video here. VERY very useful, in deed. I tried a base model 14" a few months ago...and it didnt cut it , RAM wise.. I've been considering the 32Gb RAM upgrade ever since. I'm gonna check the other video, where u alter the settings to 10core. Thanks again Cheers from Portugal
First video I’m watching from you, and it’s a sub. First of all you’re talking about sample libraries, Kontakt and Mac stuff, so yeah, that the things that interest me. Also, never forget that the first thousand subscribers are often the hardest, so you can actually reach exposure.
Hey, thanks Phil! Definitely the start is the hardest. But already gaining more exposure in the algorithm now that I have the 1000. Thanks for the sub!
Could you please try and do a stress test on the native version of logic with native sample library instruments to see how much of a bottleneck Rosetta 2 is? I’m not sure of any from memory but I’m sure Spitfire have a few native plugs or at least betas. It’s a shame that developers are still catching up to silicon because with the throughput of memory bandwidth (400 GB/s vs intel’s 42 GB/s) I think fully native sample libraries will annihilate anything intel has to offer. Congrats on the 1k
Thanks! Not sure if I’ll find enough meaningful native plugins to test it, but I’ll see what I can do! Does Rosetta limit memory bandwidth on this machine?
@@DIDCHOI Hey, I think the main issue that even the few plugins that are Native to apple Silicon then finding support for Monterey is another question entirely. We are neglected as producers! As far as I am aware, the way the translation layer works is that the computer has to process all the data twice back and forth through the x86 (Intel layer) And this hampers the full performance of apple Silicon. Which is why your CPU is maxing out earlier than expected. After watching the M1 Max cream machines that have far more CPU power on optimised software (Video codecs, rendering, coding etc.) I think we just have to be patient and wait for the manufacturers to catch up. Don't be disappointed. It is a beastly machine!
Having the issue that only one thread is maxed out and getting system overload but my system usw is only around 15% overall. Any tips? MacBook Pro 14 M1 Max Logic Pro x Ventura no Rosetta mode. Only native plugins running.
Thank you so much for testing it and sharing. That was good to know. A small request if you had chance to do similar one in the future, especially for the one articulation per track setting. Please manipulate at least two CCs for all tracks, for example modulation and vibrato for SSS because that is more practical and I believe Kontakt have to do some work to process the signal, which would add more CPU usage. Also, it would be great if we can see them with the standard fx such as, 2-3 reverb busses (ideally, one is algo and the other is comvo), at least 1 EQ, and 1-2 comps on the master track. I know that the stress test should be simple as a test and also the CPU load of effects varies, but when it comes to the music production, it is also helpful to see how it works in more real setting. Probably the max track count would be reduced. Anyway, thank you for the info!
For the single articulation ones, I did manipulate CC 1 and 11 I believe (possibly just 1 maybe..?), so each track had the automation. Yeah, reverbs and master fx would be very standard too, but wanted to show raw Kontakt so people could guess what would work for them with FX in mind. Like you say, everyone's setups are so different. As I continue to use it for my own projects, I will report how it performs with FX though~
@@DIDCHOI Oh, OK! Then the track count over 200 is great (and it's a bit shame that CPU becomes the bottleneck first becuase the best setup for audio producion could be M1 Pro with 64GB ram, which is not available.) Looking forward to seeing the next report!
Due to the CPU limitation (as that gave in first) do you think there's much value in the 64gb ram instead of 32gb ram? Will getting more ram help alleviate the load on CPU when pushing it to this level? I.e. would you have gotten a worse result in these tests sooner, if you were running 32gb ram? Thanks for the vid!
Good question! That was my initial thought too, but I had the Kontakt buffer size quite low which probably contributed to the CPU taking more stress than the RAM. Gonna be doing an updated test as part of next weeks video
Depends what you are doing. I definitely prefer working in 128, maybe 256 if it's a heavier project. But then again, orchestral libraries all have latency, so what's another 30ms gonna do hahahaha. (If I'm recording audio, definitely will want under 128 as the machine allows)
@@DIDCHOI I have no problem running orchestral samples at 88.2-96khz with a buffer set to 64. Anything over 128 will make me feel so out of tune that it’s hardly playable
Hanging Midi is a common problem that happens when a CPU might be overloaded briefly so that it misses the note off command. Try a larger buffer if it’s persistent. Otherwise just stopping and starting again will solve it. Some controllers have midi panic buttons too which will do the trick
@@DIDCHOI Yup, tried the buffer at it's highest. Didn't fix the issue. Also, Changing presets on certain Output libraries peaks the CPU in Live 11 and 11.1beta9 and produces a loud pop.
When NI updates Kontakt to be natively optimized for M1 and Monterey, I assume you will see better results. I have similar config as yours, 64GB ram, 24GPU, and 4TB storage. I am kinda holding off on installing all the softwares and libraries until they become optimized for M1 (without having to use rosetta). Yeah and all these tech youtubers overpraising M1 pro and max are not heavily running many instances of these huge sample libraries. They are more basing their numbers on video/photo softwares rendering time. So I don’t really take that applicable for orchestral music production.
Yup! I think there’s at least about a 20% increase in performance between native and Rosetta (did some tests today for the next video). Excited for ALL the third party softwares to eventually be updated… For sure, I knew since the keynote that it’d be a different story for VO work, but CPU giving out was the last thing I expected
My question is, were the fans on the MacBook Pro whirring and making noise all the time? I have a decked out 16 inch Intel with 64 GB of RAM and it’s so annoying to listen to those fans when I’m trying to concentrate.
I mention it a few times in the video, and the previous video, but IF it goes on (to a max of 1500 RPM as I’ve observed so far) it is barely audible, even with my ear pressed against the computer, ambient noise it louder. And most of the time, it doesn’t even turn on. Very different from my 2019 15 inch!
so does that mean you can play 200+ kontakt instance at the same time? no composition of my tracks need that. i can have a template with 300 instruments, but only 20 or 50 play at the same time. in addition i want to to go to 96k samplerate, does that mean i can play around 100 tracks at the same time?
Ikr? While our templates have the instruments available, we seldom use all the tracks. 200+ of each instrument playing a simple melody of course. The heavier the arrangement the more CPU as well, along with different automation and stuff. I suppose with a higher sample rate it’ll still be workable. How come you’re working in 96 out of curiosity? For audio work I understand, but almost all commercial sample libraries run in 48k
I wonder if you can try adding eqed, delays, compressions to some basic tracks and try to max out that way? For regular song processing a mixer can use dozens upon dozens of effects just on 20 tracks of vocals alone . I never see anyone test tracks like this. Doesn’t need to be in a vocal but just to see what it can handle plugin wise. I want to use kontakt too, but would likely be using more mixing stuff and then a few synths aswell. I’m surprised you got kinglet to work Iv heard many people say their native instruments stuff doesn’t work
I’ve had no issues with NI stuff at all actually. Just uploaded one testing the new waves SSL, but not exactly what you’re looking for. For most stuff like lots of stacked fx, I think it mostly runs fine. I’ve done a couple pop style mixes too with lots of processing and had no issues
great video man, that is exactly what i was looking for... Thanks... i´m shocked the CPU is the bottle-neck! i was also expecting it can handle more... that´s kind of weird....did u have any plugins on each track, EQ limiter etc...? that would also be interesting to know ... then the tracks will probably decrease again.... all the best
Yeah, raising Kontakt's preload buffer helps a little, but not by a lot. Didn't have audio FX on any tracks in the example, so yes, real world, you'd get less. So with the two factors, the count is probably pretty close to real world?
@@tb6265 It's hard to say cause it really is a matter of milliseconds at this point. I'm using a thunderbolt SSD so it was already very fast on the Intel 2019 MacBook. It only took maybe 20 seconds to load my stress test file again for the next video coming out soon. Over 200 tracks of kontakt in 20s is pretty good I'd say
hey man, and how satisfied are you with the power of the 16" so far? I'm considering getting the 14" but I'm a bit worried about the heat !? Are you satisfied with the size or would you now prefer the 14" ? cheers
Hey. I love it! I have some colleagues with the 14 and I believe they have the same performance. So far, with the 16, when working in Logic, I've never heard the fan. I have the Macs Fan Control app and see that it does hit around 1500rpm for more intense moments, or when I'm video editing/zoom calling, but that's inaudible. I've once seen it reach 2800rpm and that was audible, but MUCH quieter than my old intel mac. I've always liked a bigger screen, so I'm happy with the 16, but I wouldn't mind a 14. Honestly now, I kind of wish I got the Mac Studio with a cheaper MacBook Air or something since I end up only working with samples at my desk, and any notation, video editing, etc is doable with lower end macs.
Ive been doing a lot of orchestra scoring with my old i7 6th gen macbook pro and im honestly DONE with it. Im looking to upgrading to the Mac studio would you guys recomend me the ultra or the max version?
Thanks for the video! Wondering how much space all those libraries take up in total, and also are you running them from your internal SSD or an external drive?
Good question. I'd say, definitely yes! This is a stress test with everything needing to be processed simultaneously, with some space between notes, it'll ease and distribute the load. Most of the overloads happened when a bunch of things coincide, especially legato jumps and stuff
Pretty sure it isn't native support yet. Just compatible via Rosetta. But when they actually restructure its architecture to fit, it should be much better. At LEAST a 20% increase
그 재생하실 때 오디오 트랙을 하나 만들고 그 트랙이 선택된 상태에서 재생해보세요. 인텔맥같은 경우 가상악기트랙이 클릭된 상태에서 재생하면 중간에 연주하는 것에 대비해서 cpu사용량이 상대적으로 높다고 합니다. 저도 이 차이를 체감한 뒤에 큰 프로젝트파일 작업하면서 재생할 땐 빈 오디오채널을 선택한 뒤 재생합니다. 이미 아셨을수도 있지만 혹시 도움이 될까해서 댓글 남겨보았습니다. 좋은하루 되세요!
I have ordered a 64gb 14inch MacBook Pro. It seems that 32gb m1 Pro will get the same result? Swap might be a little but not a big problem cause the memory pressure in your video is always green and not even close to 50%.
Yeah, I had the kontakt buffer setting low, so will be updating the test after experimenting with that so maybe the result might change? That was what I initially thought too though
@@DIDCHOI I'm looking forward to your next week's video!!! If the result is still the same, I will definitely cancel my order and go to M1 pro 32GB for better battery life!!
Hey, since the release of this video, NI dropped the M1 optimized version of Kontakt and I was wondering if you had a chance to redo the test and compare the results?
I will be doing so soon, but, in the middle of projects and have been to scared to upgrade just yet. Also running all of logic in Rosetta still cause a handful of plugins that I often use. Some of those were also updated, so I’ll be switching very soon!
@@DIDCHOI yeah, I got my MBP Max 64GB, and I did upgrade everything since I haven’t started any project yet. But I’m still running Rosetta because some plugs aren’t ready and I don’t have all libraries like yours to test... that’s why I was curious to see your conclusions and results.
Bravo Danny, thanks for this video, it seems that the M1 use less Ram but it can't handle all the streams at once. I have seen that not all the cores of the M1 are the same, there are something like 8 fat cores and 2 slim cores on it, I'm not sure about the numbers. Your vidéo is great, I waited it since you annonce it. Keep it up and thanks again ! 👍
It is impressive that there is lots of headroom overall huh? The stress test wasn't truly a stress test yet. No fans, no freezing, everything ran smooth, just couldn't play every note at once
Cores do matter for our work... I was wondering what if we test this same setting with i mac 27 inch with i9 10gen 10 core processor.. should see tat.. because they have same core processor 😁
I haven’t tried it, but based on reviews, I know it has the same keybed as the Arturia, Fatar, which I’m not a fan of. I also find the lack of faders annoying, though the auto mapping knobs must be very nice
23:09 I saw a video doing some tests like you, having different result by forcing the number of Processing Threads to the max, and by reducing the Process Buffer I believe. You should definitely do some tests, it seems like we don’t have to increase to the highest buffer size with the M1 Max because of the speed of the memory, even the internal SSD, they’re so fast that you can use small buffer and therefore small computing process, which allows to have more tracks and plugins running in realtime. Don’t ask me how, I don’t know and I don’t have my MBP 16” Max maxed out yet, I’m gonna order it for Christmas, so I couldn’t test myself, I’m just watching all videos about it, mainly all stuff about plugins and sample libraries because that’s what I want to run myself. I noticed the other guy was getting better perf by reducing the process buffer. It might be worth to mess around to see your results.
Really? Smaller buffer gave better performance? That sounds dubious but definitely something worth trying out. I would expect smaller buffer = more cpu usage?
@@DIDCHOI I know, I couldn’t find a reason why it would work, but I saw it done on video. I wish I would remember which video, I’m watching ton and ton of video about the M1 Max right now since I’m gonna get mine for Christmas. Someone was doing music production tests and he could get better results when he reduced the process buffer and force the thread core to max. All I’m saying is, do some tests, not sure how it would behave with Kontakt, but it could be worth. Also, you can reduce the Pre-load in Kontakt since memory and internal SSD are super fast, you don’t need to have big pre-load. The main conclusion is that the M1 chipsets are not behaving like Intel, that’s why the unified memory could be lower than Intel version. I will definitely do tons of tests once I will get my MBP, just to find the best settings for music production with lot of Kontakt.
It is older, but lots of people use it so I decided to include it. It's a good contrast to newer libraries that are more RAM heavy vs Cinesamples which is light on RAM and heavier with the scripting
If I was even near a 100th kontakt instance i'd just freeze things. All considered it's still pretty impressive to me who's pushing a MBP mid2012 🤣 still a good machine but yeah, can't push it much, I'd fly with this.
Yeah, it is definitely impressive. Just weird that the CPU had bottlenecked before the fans even turned on. But I'm gonna try it again for next week's video with Kontakt's buffer turned up. That should lessen the load on the CPU and get more stressful
Thanks for taking the time to try all these tests, it's very good to see! A couple thoughts:
It's clear you ran into CPU overloads well before you managed to oversaturate 64GB RAM with Kontakt. But I think it's too early to draw any final conclusions from this. We shouldn't understate the impact of Kontakt still running as Rosetta 2 translated x86-AS code here. Rosetta 2 does an amazing job for what it is, but it's still an automated process. Typically with automatic code translation, you don't lose as much efficiency/performance when the software in question is pretty high-level, leveraging a lot of standard system frameworks. But when you're talking about an AU plug in - one which can also easily make a lot of demands on both the CPU and the entire RAM-SSD subsystem like Kontakt does - it's almost certainly the case that a lot of very x86-specific optimisations were made along the way which Rosetta 2, as good as it is, can't replicate in an AS-specific equivalent. This is why we obviously need the developers and coders to step in. At first to fully _understand_ what the new architecture offers, and then to rethink and redesign how their software works under the hood to make the best use of it.
Also we shouldn't forget that Kontakt is actually quite ancient in software terms. It's quite likely bloated with a lot of legacy code for backwards compatibility with old libraries - legacy code that could easily generate a bunch of useless CPU overhead which Rosetta 2 (being an automated process, not an intelligent human coder) isn't able to ignore or improve. Not to mention that Kontakt's own customisable memory and drive caching schemes were developed as far back as when computers with external FireWire drives were the norm. Who knows how much more efficient (and importantly - less demanding on CPU) it could run if/when this entire subsystem is re-tuned for the new status quo of M1 Pro/Max machines with their ridiculously fast and wide memory bandwidth. Right now, Kontakt could be wasting a lot of CPU cycles micromanaging its memory/swap system to a degree that just isn't needed anymore, simply because the severe bottlenecks they were (cleverly) designed to overcome just aren't a thing anymore. A Rosetta 2 translated instance of Kontakt is just going to slavishly recreate (as best it can) exactly the same process here. But a redesigned AS-native version could be built from the ground up with a fundamentally different playback engine, one that doesn't need to waste precious CPU cycles running an outdated memory/swap scheme that was designed to fix a problem that no longer exists.
All this to say that when it comes to software/plug ins going native on AS, Kontakt is quite possibly one of the ones which stands to gain more of a performance boost than many others. But of course this really comes down to Native Instruments and how much time (and how many resources in terms of developer/coder time and money) they choose to put into this. They're already sitting pretty as the industry standard sampler, so it could honestly go either way... They could choose to just keep things as they are under the hood, essentially just converting it all to AS-native code while fixing only the most obvious things Rosetta 2 didn't do well. After all they still dominate the 3rd party sound library market by far, so it's not like they _need_ to make a performance/efficiency leap to stay ahead. Or, they could choose to use the move to Apple Silicon as a major update moment, coming out with a completely rebuilt playback engine to kick things off for the next 10 years. That would be awesome, but my fear is they'll be more concerned about breaking backwards compatibility with their major sound library partners - especially with the complex and very effective scripting they use. So sadly, it's possible the best technological decision might not end up being the best business decision for them.
Anyway thanks again for doing these demos! Even with Kontakt/Logic under Rosetta 2 translation, the results you got are still fantastic for me. I recently scored a Netflix series for which I had to set up and work in a different country away from my studio. They provided me with a top spec 2018 15" MacBook Pro onto which I cloned my composing setup, with sound library on external SSD. That machine was a total disaster, a nightmare to work with especially compared to what you demonstrated here. It overheated instantly just from driving external displays (a non-negotiable when composing to picture!), and then throttled the CPU down to the point of being unusable, even on moderate cues without too many synths and Kontakt tracks. In fact it was so bad, it even literally shut down in the middle of a session with the director and show runner because the battery ran out - _while it was connected to AC_ !! Turns out it drew so much power just trying to keep up, the charger couldn't provide enough energy and also charge the battery at the same time. And of course the fan noise was constant and unbearable. It's so good that all of this is now a thing of the past, even if the new MacBook Pros aren't yet perfect... :)
Same experience here 🙌🏽….. thanks 😊 for taking the time to type up a well-thought response, and sharing your experiences too!
Wow, thanks for the in-depth response. I think you have really valid points, it'll be interesting to see what NI ends up doing. I'd love to see other new features like Mic-Merging from SINE Player and a better/updated GUI. For most work, I think the computer is plenty powerful too. It was only surprising that of all things it was the CPU overloading before the fans kicked in or the RAM was swapping, but the sheer number of tracks it could easily handle was amazing.
@@DIDCHOI no problem! Re the CPU performance, honestly I think it's a pity Apple decided to go with just two variants (Pro/Max), with GPU core count being the only main differentiator between the two. Would have been great if there were the option to order an M1 Max processor with more CPU cores (say, two more performance cores), even if the tradeoff for this was having a maximum of only 16 GPU cores in order to remain within the maximum power/thermal budget the SOC can handle.
I mean, I get why they didn't do this. Most of the customers for the highest-spec MacBook Pro's want both the best CPU and GPU on offer. So I doubt it would have gone over too well if there was a MacBook Pro configuration on sale with the highest CPU performance you could get... but without the possibility of also having the best GPU. Ironically for us in music production (and I'm sure in other industries too), this would actually be an ideal option. We don't need anywhere _near_ the top GPU specs on offer these days - most of us just need to drive an external display or two and that's it. So we'll take as much CPU power as you can give us, and as long as the GPU is just enough to not be a hindrance, it's fine. But unfortunately we're a niche market that hasn't been addressed quite as directly as video pros have been this time around. Maybe in a couple of generations time when Apple Silicon is more settled in they'll get around to offering a wider range of CPU/GPU choices that could advantage us more.
@@tbirdparis Yeah, we musicians didn't get the perfect combo. I'd love to see a high core CPU, 128GB RAM, and decent GPU type. But I guess the market is too small for that
@@DIDCHOI Not sure 🤔 what you mean by “musician market”, but you can get what you’re asking for in an iMac 🖥 or Mac Pro…..
Do you mean that there isn’t a laptop 💻 with those specs? Or a laptop 💻 of that spec within your desired budget??
Curious about the perspective 🙇🏻
Thanks for this review. Can't wait for an update for M1 support and would love to see an updated review when that happens!
When you write a piece in contact, you can set the standard sound quality without improving the quality of samples. And when the track is ready and recorded during rendering, you can enable quality enhancements in contact. This will give less load on the CPU
Hey man, change the Processing threads setting from “Automatic” to “10 core”… you will see a substancial difference in performance
He's right! That increases my performance at least.
Check out the video I released yesterday! Do exactly that~
@@DIDCHOI post the link, thx.
Great test- super straightforward and gives you a good sense of how hard you can drive it.
Keep going, you'll hit 100,000.
Tutorials on how to write orchestral music would be great -- maybe a series on how you build an orchestral piece, from where do you start (piano?) to how you plan it out, etc. I want to learn that and also how to read and write orchestral scores. They seem complex in terms of how many tracks/instruments there are, though sometimes each track is very simple.
PS: I work on an M1 Air in Ableton Live, with Spitfire libraries on a fast external drive.
Thanks!
I know @orchestrationonline has a lot of great content. I learned a lot from Thomas’ videos in the early days. Getting a good book, Adler, and score reading a lot, transcribing a lot is the best way to learn the small intricate stuff that are difficult to say in words too. But I might do some orchestration tips too!
This Video is what I was looking for! Since 3 Weeks every day searching the whole UA-cam if some one is testing the M1 Max whit 64 GB RAM and some heavy Orchestra Kontakt Sample Libraries for Film Scoring. Please do more Videos like this. So we all know if it's worth it to buy the m1 Max with 64Gigs of RAM
Me too! No one made one before my computer arrived so I decided to make these myself haha.
Will be more coming!
I think you'll find it different if NI update Kontakt for native support.
Yup. Waiting on ALL the companies to get with the program haha
@@DIDCHOI i was just about to comment on that ;) .
I would assume that a big fat chunk of the CPU struggle/problem ..is Rosetta.
Thanks very much for the video here.
VERY very useful, in deed.
I tried a base model 14" a few months ago...and it didnt cut it , RAM wise..
I've been considering the 32Gb RAM upgrade ever since.
I'm gonna check the other video, where u alter the settings to 10core.
Thanks again
Cheers from Portugal
Brilliant, Best real world analysis on You Tube!
Have you try to change the settings on how many cords it used? Instead of choosing automatic. Should be in the settings
First video I’m watching from you, and it’s a sub. First of all you’re talking about sample libraries, Kontakt and Mac stuff, so yeah, that the things that interest me.
Also, never forget that the first thousand subscribers are often the hardest, so you can actually reach exposure.
Hey, thanks Phil! Definitely the start is the hardest. But already gaining more exposure in the algorithm now that I have the 1000. Thanks for the sub!
great testing thank you!
You're welcome!
Thanks for sharing, great content
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great! Finally a proper real-world test! well done!
Thanks!
Could you please try and do a stress test on the native version of logic with native sample library instruments to see how much of a bottleneck Rosetta 2 is?
I’m not sure of any from memory but I’m sure Spitfire have a few native plugs or at least betas.
It’s a shame that developers are still catching up to silicon because with the throughput of memory bandwidth (400 GB/s vs intel’s 42 GB/s) I think fully native sample libraries will annihilate anything intel has to offer.
Congrats on the 1k
Thanks!
Not sure if I’ll find enough meaningful native plugins to test it, but I’ll see what I can do!
Does Rosetta limit memory bandwidth on this machine?
@@DIDCHOI Hey, I think the main issue that even the few plugins that are Native to apple Silicon then finding support for Monterey is another question entirely. We are neglected as producers!
As far as I am aware, the way the translation layer works is that the computer has to process all the data twice back and forth through the x86 (Intel layer) And this hampers the full performance of apple Silicon. Which is why your CPU is maxing out earlier than expected. After watching the M1 Max cream machines that have far more CPU power on optimised software (Video codecs, rendering, coding etc.) I think we just have to be patient and wait for the manufacturers to catch up. Don't be disappointed. It is a beastly machine!
@@ramjam5459 great point. It will only get better from here!
Having the issue that only one thread is maxed out and getting system overload but my system usw is only around 15% overall. Any tips? MacBook Pro 14 M1 Max Logic Pro x Ventura no Rosetta mode. Only native plugins running.
Got multithread enabled? Could be a capture recording issue, try creating a track, reassign to no output, select that track when playing back music
Thank you so much for testing it and sharing. That was good to know. A small request if you had chance to do similar one in the future, especially for the one articulation per track setting. Please manipulate at least two CCs for all tracks, for example modulation and vibrato for SSS because that is more practical and I believe Kontakt have to do some work to process the signal, which would add more CPU usage. Also, it would be great if we can see them with the standard fx such as, 2-3 reverb busses (ideally, one is algo and the other is comvo), at least 1 EQ, and 1-2 comps on the master track. I know that the stress test should be simple as a test and also the CPU load of effects varies, but when it comes to the music production, it is also helpful to see how it works in more real setting. Probably the max track count would be reduced. Anyway, thank you for the info!
For the single articulation ones, I did manipulate CC 1 and 11 I believe (possibly just 1 maybe..?), so each track had the automation. Yeah, reverbs and master fx would be very standard too, but wanted to show raw Kontakt so people could guess what would work for them with FX in mind. Like you say, everyone's setups are so different. As I continue to use it for my own projects, I will report how it performs with FX though~
@@DIDCHOI Oh, OK! Then the track count over 200 is great (and it's a bit shame that CPU becomes the bottleneck first becuase the best setup for audio producion could be M1 Pro with 64GB ram, which is not available.) Looking forward to seeing the next report!
agree!
Due to the CPU limitation (as that gave in first) do you think there's much value in the 64gb ram instead of 32gb ram?
Will getting more ram help alleviate the load on CPU when pushing it to this level?
I.e. would you have gotten a worse result in these tests sooner, if you were running 32gb ram? Thanks for the vid!
Good question! That was my initial thought too, but I had the Kontakt buffer size quite low which probably contributed to the CPU taking more stress than the RAM. Gonna be doing an updated test as part of next weeks video
Which was your previous computer? Did it handle more tracks than M1 Max? Did you regret buying it?
Oh it’s a huge upgrade from my previous one for sure haha. It was the 2019 15inch with 16GB RAM, but it had a faulty battery too.
Very good review …
Thanks!
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I would never in life run such a high buffer size.
The max I will use is 128, but usually stay at 32 or 64
Depends what you are doing. I definitely prefer working in 128, maybe 256 if it's a heavier project. But then again, orchestral libraries all have latency, so what's another 30ms gonna do hahahaha.
(If I'm recording audio, definitely will want under 128 as the machine allows)
@@DIDCHOI
I have no problem running orchestral samples at 88.2-96khz with a buffer set to 64.
Anything over 128 will make me feel so out of tune that it’s hardly playable
Is anyone else having problems with midi notes getting stuck after stopping playback, especially with massive x but some other plug-ins are
Hanging Midi is a common problem that happens when a CPU might be overloaded briefly so that it misses the note off command. Try a larger buffer if it’s persistent.
Otherwise just stopping and starting again will solve it.
Some controllers have midi panic buttons too which will do the trick
@@DIDCHOI Yup, tried the buffer at it's highest. Didn't fix the issue. Also, Changing presets on certain Output libraries peaks the CPU in Live 11 and 11.1beta9 and produces a loud pop.
When NI updates Kontakt to be natively optimized for M1 and Monterey, I assume you will see better results. I have similar config as yours, 64GB ram, 24GPU, and 4TB storage. I am kinda holding off on installing all the softwares and libraries until they become optimized for M1 (without having to use rosetta). Yeah and all these tech youtubers overpraising M1 pro and max are not heavily running many instances of these huge sample libraries. They are more basing their numbers on video/photo softwares rendering time. So I don’t really take that applicable for orchestral music production.
Yup! I think there’s at least about a 20% increase in performance between native and Rosetta (did some tests today for the next video). Excited for ALL the third party softwares to eventually be updated…
For sure, I knew since the keynote that it’d be a different story for VO work, but CPU giving out was the last thing I expected
My question is, were the fans on the MacBook Pro whirring and making noise all the time? I have a decked out 16 inch Intel with 64 GB of RAM and it’s so annoying to listen to those fans when I’m trying to concentrate.
I mention it a few times in the video, and the previous video, but IF it goes on (to a max of 1500 RPM as I’ve observed so far) it is barely audible, even with my ear pressed against the computer, ambient noise it louder. And most of the time, it doesn’t even turn on.
Very different from my 2019 15 inch!
so does that mean you can play 200+ kontakt instance at the same time? no composition of my tracks need that. i can have a template with 300 instruments, but only 20 or 50 play at the same time. in addition i want to to go to 96k samplerate, does that mean i can play around 100 tracks at the same time?
Ikr? While our templates have the instruments available, we seldom use all the tracks. 200+ of each instrument playing a simple melody of course. The heavier the arrangement the more CPU as well, along with different automation and stuff.
I suppose with a higher sample rate it’ll still be workable. How come you’re working in 96 out of curiosity? For audio work I understand, but almost all commercial sample libraries run in 48k
I wonder if you can try adding eqed, delays, compressions to some basic tracks and try to max out that way?
For regular song processing a mixer can use dozens upon dozens of effects just on 20 tracks of vocals alone .
I never see anyone test tracks like this. Doesn’t need to be in a vocal but just to see what it can handle plugin wise.
I want to use kontakt too, but would likely be using more mixing stuff and then a few synths aswell.
I’m surprised you got kinglet to work Iv heard many people say their native instruments stuff doesn’t work
I’ve had no issues with NI stuff at all actually.
Just uploaded one testing the new waves SSL, but not exactly what you’re looking for.
For most stuff like lots of stacked fx, I think it mostly runs fine. I’ve done a couple pop style mixes too with lots of processing and had no issues
great video man, that is exactly what i was looking for... Thanks... i´m shocked the CPU is the bottle-neck! i was also expecting it can handle more... that´s kind of weird....did u have any plugins on each track, EQ limiter etc...? that would also be interesting to know ... then the tracks will probably decrease again.... all the best
Yeah, raising Kontakt's preload buffer helps a little, but not by a lot. Didn't have audio FX on any tracks in the example, so yes, real world, you'd get less. So with the two factors, the count is probably pretty close to real world?
@@DIDCHOI ok thanks man... last question.. is the loading time of the kontakt libraries shorter? or is it the same like on intel macbooks?
@@tb6265 It's hard to say cause it really is a matter of milliseconds at this point. I'm using a thunderbolt SSD so it was already very fast on the Intel 2019 MacBook. It only took maybe 20 seconds to load my stress test file again for the next video coming out soon. Over 200 tracks of kontakt in 20s is pretty good I'd say
hey man, and how satisfied are you with the power of the 16" so far? I'm considering getting the 14" but I'm a bit worried about the heat !? Are you satisfied with the size or would you now prefer the 14" ? cheers
Hey. I love it!
I have some colleagues with the 14 and I believe they have the same performance. So far, with the 16, when working in Logic, I've never heard the fan. I have the Macs Fan Control app and see that it does hit around 1500rpm for more intense moments, or when I'm video editing/zoom calling, but that's inaudible. I've once seen it reach 2800rpm and that was audible, but MUCH quieter than my old intel mac.
I've always liked a bigger screen, so I'm happy with the 16, but I wouldn't mind a 14. Honestly now, I kind of wish I got the Mac Studio with a cheaper MacBook Air or something since I end up only working with samples at my desk, and any notation, video editing, etc is doable with lower end macs.
Ive been doing a lot of orchestra scoring with my old i7 6th gen macbook pro and im honestly DONE with it. Im looking to upgrading to the Mac studio would you guys recomend me the ultra or the max version?
With a maxed out M1 Max, I'm having no problems with most work. If you can afford it, always go for the best you possibly can.
@@DIDCHOI thanks for the reply
Pls use processing buffering to maximum and core to 10
I'm going to redo some of it and include it in next week's synth video with the buffer in Kontakt turned up!
Thanks for the video! Wondering how much space all those libraries take up in total, and also are you running them from your internal SSD or an external drive?
I’m using a Sabrent 2TB external SSD. Samples take about 1.4 TB at the moment
Is there a difference if you offset the note starts between tracks?
Good question. I'd say, definitely yes! This is a stress test with everything needing to be processed simultaneously, with some space between notes, it'll ease and distribute the load. Most of the overloads happened when a bunch of things coincide, especially legato jumps and stuff
err, my understanding, unless I missed something along the way.. is once get Kontakt running natively, you'll get very significant performance boost.
Wait kontakt is supported for M1 right? Natively After 6.3.5? Version
@@fazilsha77889 he said he says he's running it in Rosetta.. in the setup for the test part
Pretty sure it isn't native support yet. Just compatible via Rosetta. But when they actually restructure its architecture to fit, it should be much better. At LEAST a 20% increase
그 재생하실 때 오디오 트랙을 하나 만들고 그 트랙이 선택된 상태에서 재생해보세요. 인텔맥같은 경우 가상악기트랙이 클릭된 상태에서 재생하면 중간에 연주하는 것에 대비해서 cpu사용량이 상대적으로 높다고 합니다. 저도 이 차이를 체감한 뒤에 큰 프로젝트파일 작업하면서 재생할 땐 빈 오디오채널을 선택한 뒤 재생합니다. 이미 아셨을수도 있지만 혹시 도움이 될까해서 댓글 남겨보았습니다. 좋은하루 되세요!
아, 맞네요! 그러면 CPU중 1 core은 훨신 free하겠네요. 저도 template에 그렇게 해놨는데 테스트에서 그거는 까먹었네요! 감사합니다!
지나가던 저도 도움 받습니다. 감사합니다. ㅠㅠ
I have ordered a 64gb 14inch MacBook Pro. It seems that 32gb m1 Pro will get the same result? Swap might be a little but not a big problem cause the memory pressure in your video is always green and not even close to 50%.
Yeah, I had the kontakt buffer setting low, so will be updating the test after experimenting with that so maybe the result might change?
That was what I initially thought too though
@@DIDCHOI I'm looking forward to your next week's video!!! If the result is still the same, I will definitely cancel my order and go to M1 pro 32GB for better battery life!!
Do you think that when all was migrated to Monterrey it will help?
It should help for sure. But like I mention in the description, the Kontakt buffer size should help a lot
Isn’t NI stuff only available through Rosetta and not natively 🧐 because if so then this result is I’d say expected
Yeah, but Kontakt seems to work without issues in the native mode too, though not officially supported.
Hi, in my test running with an RME interface, I could load the computer much more.
Hmm were you using FireWire or thunderbolt? As opposed to USB? My interface is still USB 2.0 so maybe that has a big effect?
Hey, since the release of this video, NI dropped the M1 optimized version of Kontakt and I was wondering if you had a chance to redo the test and compare the results?
I will be doing so soon, but, in the middle of projects and have been to scared to upgrade just yet. Also running all of logic in Rosetta still cause a handful of plugins that I often use. Some of those were also updated, so I’ll be switching very soon!
@@DIDCHOI yeah, I got my MBP Max 64GB, and I did upgrade everything since I haven’t started any project yet. But I’m still running Rosetta because some plugs aren’t ready and I don’t have all libraries like yours to test... that’s why I was curious to see your conclusions and results.
오오 한국인이신가봐요
m1 pro와 m1 max의 배터리타임이 궁금했는데 max도 나쁘지않은것같아 다행이네요ㅎㅎ
저렇게 cpu풀로드해도 발열이나 팬소음은 괜찮은가요??
네 ㅎㅎ. Max를 쓰시면 보통 배터리보다는 그만큼의 performance를 중요하게 생각을 하는 거니까 약간 적다 해도, 네 충분히 오래 가는 것 같아요~
이 만큼으로는 펜이 켜지지도 않았어요!
@@DIDCHOI ㅎㅎㅎ감사합니다 구독 누르고갈게요~!ㅎㅎ이영상보고 m1 max로 주문했습니다!
Bravo Danny, thanks for this video, it seems that the M1 use less Ram but it can't handle all the streams at once. I have seen that not all the cores of the M1 are the same, there are something like 8 fat cores and 2 slim cores on it, I'm not sure about the numbers.
Your vidéo is great, I waited it since you annonce it. Keep it up and thanks again ! 👍
Thanks!!
How is your disk usage is not full? My computer will probably be very glitchy when playing a few instances of Kontakt :(
It is impressive that there is lots of headroom overall huh? The stress test wasn't truly a stress test yet. No fans, no freezing, everything ran smooth, just couldn't play every note at once
Cores do matter for our work... I was wondering what if we test this same setting with i mac 27 inch with i9 10gen 10 core processor.. should see tat.. because they have same core processor 😁
That would be interesting!
yea but this M1 Max should be on the same Level than a Mac Pro 12 Core like the benchmarks showed
Any chance of some Vst synths being used in your next test?
When you say VST synths, what are you referring to? Sampled synths? VSTs don’t run in Logic..
Do you like the komplete keyboard?
I haven’t tried it, but based on reviews, I know it has the same keybed as the Arturia, Fatar, which I’m not a fan of. I also find the lack of faders annoying, though the auto mapping knobs must be very nice
@@DIDCHOIah I see. Thanks for responding! What keyboard do you prefer/use then?
hi.
set the "process Buffer range" on high and test it again ;)
and playing a single Not on each instrument need less power than playing a melody
Good points!
23:09 I saw a video doing some tests like you, having different result by forcing the number of Processing Threads to the max, and by reducing the Process Buffer I believe. You should definitely do some tests, it seems like we don’t have to increase to the highest buffer size with the M1 Max because of the speed of the memory, even the internal SSD, they’re so fast that you can use small buffer and therefore small computing process, which allows to have more tracks and plugins running in realtime. Don’t ask me how, I don’t know and I don’t have my MBP 16” Max maxed out yet, I’m gonna order it for Christmas, so I couldn’t test myself, I’m just watching all videos about it, mainly all stuff about plugins and sample libraries because that’s what I want to run myself. I noticed the other guy was getting better perf by reducing the process buffer. It might be worth to mess around to see your results.
Really? Smaller buffer gave better performance? That sounds dubious but definitely something worth trying out. I would expect smaller buffer = more cpu usage?
@@DIDCHOI I know, I couldn’t find a reason why it would work, but I saw it done on video. I wish I would remember which video, I’m watching ton and ton of video about the M1 Max right now since I’m gonna get mine for Christmas. Someone was doing music production tests and he could get better results when he reduced the process buffer and force the thread core to max. All I’m saying is, do some tests, not sure how it would behave with Kontakt, but it could be worth. Also, you can reduce the Pre-load in Kontakt since memory and internal SSD are super fast, you don’t need to have big pre-load. The main conclusion is that the M1 chipsets are not behaving like Intel, that’s why the unified memory could be lower than Intel version. I will definitely do tons of tests once I will get my MBP, just to find the best settings for music production with lot of Kontakt.
Time for an update video now with the native Apple Silicon support :)
Soon!
@@DIDCHOI Did you ever make it?
Please turn the mouse clicks off.
Lol, yeah they do get a little annoying..I admit it. But can’t do too much about it. Also gives you feedback of when I actually am doing something
Set the processing threads to 10 instead of Automatic and enjoy your new computer
Wouldn't "automatic" also use 10 cores? Is there a significant difference?
@@DIDCHOI Yes there is. Can't wait for a new video with the new setting
Rosetta.
Yes
Cinesamples scripting in Kontakt is really inefficient and CPU intensive, I'd leave those instances out.
It is older, but lots of people use it so I decided to include it. It's a good contrast to newer libraries that are more RAM heavy vs Cinesamples which is light on RAM and heavier with the scripting
If I was even near a 100th kontakt instance i'd just freeze things. All considered it's still pretty impressive to me who's pushing a MBP mid2012 🤣 still a good machine but yeah, can't push it much, I'd fly with this.
Yeah, it is definitely impressive. Just weird that the CPU had bottlenecked before the fans even turned on. But I'm gonna try it again for next week's video with Kontakt's buffer turned up. That should lessen the load on the CPU and get more stressful
@@DIDCHOI I'm exited
Dude, why are you running your display at 30Hz??!! It’s so sluggish at that. You should up it to 60Hz
It’s the default for my Samsung M7 monitor. And since I don’t play games, I hadn’t bothered changing it. But I have now! Hahah thanks