7:00 Dang, they predicted me. "What sets the two apart?" The example being Inversificating tatu-bola elsewhere before its ability resolves, goofing with run positioning, does not cause the pending trigger to disappear. This seems to contradict the principle implied by bypass effects causing "on encounter" effects to disappear. And you are correct, there are different forces governing these 2 things. The standard way conditional abilities disappear from "the stack" (to borrow Magic's thinking) is if their source object becomes inactive before the ability starts to resolve. If the source doesn't become inactive (by being trashed, added to hand, shuffled into the deck, derezzed, etc), then it will continue to resolve, even if something weird happens. Tatu-bola went somewhere else? That's ok, we still announced that we had passed a piece of ice, which is why we resolved inversificator. Tatu-bola is still active, proceed with that swapping ability. Bypass vs Encounter effects all stem from the fact that FFG ruled that Femme Fatale lets you bypass Tollbooth without paying 3 credits. This does not match with our understanding of the rest of the game, so a retcon had to be made to make that ruling true, and a rule was made: 9.2.8.f. Basically, it says that reaction windows tied to a phase beginning (encounter ice phase) close if the phase got skipped, which results in the pending tollbooth tax not resolving. As far as I know, this only affects (and exists to justify) Femme Fatale vs Tollbooth (bypass vs on encounter). This principle only really exists here, but this ruling is deeply embedded in netrunner knowledge, culture, and inertia, it's not really an option to overturn it, even if it would be more consistent to do so. So bypass vs encounter effects is actually the weird one here. If I could go back in time, I'd ask FFG not to make this ruling. It bothers me greatly!
@@meathir4921 Yeah, there's a lot of bypass out there, which gets around a lot of on-encounter effects, so this principle is likely to remain relevant forever, but there's no other area of the game that we figure out by looking at 9.2.8f.
Thanks for the response @cephalopodwizard! We knew we could count on you! Follow-up question from a user in our discord: Is it correct that Slipstream does change the timing window you're in on pass so it does prevent Tatu (and other Corp on pass abilities like AoT) from firing?
@@neonstaticpod It is not true, because this "close pending reaction windows" behavior applies if the reaction window opens due to phase _beginning_. We don't begin a phase through the "pass ice" trigger, because the phase we're currently in is the movement phase. It really is only "encounter" triggers that get hosed by this behavior.
Sure! Here you go - originally put together by Cephalopodwizard! netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/f0380598-50b7-4f4c-841b-e35b28d60132/cancel-your-weekend-cascadia-gunslinging-edition-5-2-#
Bukhgalter breaks every Sentry in the format for the same or better than Carmen. And Carmen isn't even a bad Killer! Like, sure, we have gun now, but gun can be taxed. Bukhgalter has no reason to be in the game. Also, the card is just boring.
I think Carmen is a bad killer - for a Criminal. Breaking Drafter for 4 isn't sustainable for a Criminal who should break sentries more effectively - breaking Drafter for net 2 (but needing 4 up front) is fine imo. "Bukhgalter Did Nothing Wrong" was (95%) a joke to try and rile people up but I do legitimately think Criminals could have used the boost.
@neonstaticpod I think isolating Drafter is a weird comparison because Drafter is overstatted for its rez cost and facecheck, as much as I understand that it's also one of the most common. When you look at... basically every other Sentry in the format, Carmen is fine.
@@meathir4921 Drafter definitely warps my perception of the value of a killer but I don't think it's weird - it is one of the most (if not the most) common sentry threat in the format. My point in general is that Bukhghalter breaks for on average 1 credit cheaper. There are a few ice where that is not true. Seems fine when you look at Shaper.
7:00
Dang, they predicted me. "What sets the two apart?" The example being Inversificating tatu-bola elsewhere before its ability resolves, goofing with run positioning, does not cause the pending trigger to disappear. This seems to contradict the principle implied by bypass effects causing "on encounter" effects to disappear. And you are correct, there are different forces governing these 2 things.
The standard way conditional abilities disappear from "the stack" (to borrow Magic's thinking) is if their source object becomes inactive before the ability starts to resolve. If the source doesn't become inactive (by being trashed, added to hand, shuffled into the deck, derezzed, etc), then it will continue to resolve, even if something weird happens. Tatu-bola went somewhere else? That's ok, we still announced that we had passed a piece of ice, which is why we resolved inversificator. Tatu-bola is still active, proceed with that swapping ability.
Bypass vs Encounter effects all stem from the fact that FFG ruled that Femme Fatale lets you bypass Tollbooth without paying 3 credits. This does not match with our understanding of the rest of the game, so a retcon had to be made to make that ruling true, and a rule was made: 9.2.8.f. Basically, it says that reaction windows tied to a phase beginning (encounter ice phase) close if the phase got skipped, which results in the pending tollbooth tax not resolving. As far as I know, this only affects (and exists to justify) Femme Fatale vs Tollbooth (bypass vs on encounter). This principle only really exists here, but this ruling is deeply embedded in netrunner knowledge, culture, and inertia, it's not really an option to overturn it, even if it would be more consistent to do so.
So bypass vs encounter effects is actually the weird one here. If I could go back in time, I'd ask FFG not to make this ruling. It bothers me greatly!
Well, I mean now we have Physarum which screws with a bunch of on encounter text like Mestnichestvo.
@@meathir4921 Yeah, there's a lot of bypass out there, which gets around a lot of on-encounter effects, so this principle is likely to remain relevant forever, but there's no other area of the game that we figure out by looking at 9.2.8f.
Thanks for the response @cephalopodwizard! We knew we could count on you!
Follow-up question from a user in our discord: Is it correct that Slipstream does change the timing window you're in on pass so it does prevent Tatu (and other Corp on pass abilities like AoT) from firing?
@@neonstaticpod It is not true, because this "close pending reaction windows" behavior applies if the reaction window opens due to phase _beginning_. We don't begin a phase through the "pass ice" trigger, because the phase we're currently in is the movement phase. It really is only "encounter" triggers that get hosed by this behavior.
Can you link the Kingmaking Azmari list? That sounds like a fun deck!
Sure! Here you go - originally put together by Cephalopodwizard! netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/f0380598-50b7-4f4c-841b-e35b28d60132/cancel-your-weekend-cascadia-gunslinging-edition-5-2-#
Bukhgalter breaks every Sentry in the format for the same or better than Carmen. And Carmen isn't even a bad Killer! Like, sure, we have gun now, but gun can be taxed. Bukhgalter has no reason to be in the game.
Also, the card is just boring.
I think Carmen is a bad killer - for a Criminal. Breaking Drafter for 4 isn't sustainable for a Criminal who should break sentries more effectively - breaking Drafter for net 2 (but needing 4 up front) is fine imo.
"Bukhgalter Did Nothing Wrong" was (95%) a joke to try and rile people up but I do legitimately think Criminals could have used the boost.
@neonstaticpod I think isolating Drafter is a weird comparison because Drafter is overstatted for its rez cost and facecheck, as much as I understand that it's also one of the most common. When you look at... basically every other Sentry in the format, Carmen is fine.
@@meathir4921 Drafter definitely warps my perception of the value of a killer but I don't think it's weird - it is one of the most (if not the most) common sentry threat in the format. My point in general is that Bukhghalter breaks for on average 1 credit cheaper. There are a few ice where that is not true. Seems fine when you look at Shaper.