What scares me more is kids who torture. Those cases where a group of teens gang up on someone and it’s labeled as just “bullying” and there is hardly any legal consequences for the perpetrators will never cease to unreavel my nerves. It’s the fact it’s prolonged, that their is enjoyment out of it, it’s disponible and I truely belive in most cases they will go on to do it again
'Playground bullying' should be recognized as a crime, and the full weight of the law brought to bare. Bullies might just think twice if they knew they could be locked up in a real prison for a period longer than they have been alive.
@ yes because that will solved that started throwing kids in jail Consider just not punishing kids for the defending themselves against bullies And pressure the parents into disciplining their kids You know something work for centuries
@@LordInquisitor701 I was bullied to near suicide. You can't fix people most of the time. They need to get a massive wake up call that actions have consequences.
@@PhantomQueenOne yes a wake up call by getting punched in face preferred get punched by the kid he was bullying then punished by his parents Not prison or juvenile detention Because I guarantee you that just going make the kid turn out worse
Who wasn't picked on in one way or another at some point? My parents beat me daily, I'd been shot and stabbed before I was 20, everyone is such a wussy these days,
What is the purpose of the criminal justice system? Preventing future crimes? rehabilitating people? Vengeance? Giving a sense of satisfaction for victims and their families? I don't think we can grapple with the child problem until we decide on our purpose.
@@cynamun467 none of those. It's an excuse to extract money from disadvantaged people, which then becomes revenue for the state you were convicted in. Hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue are "collected" like this. Check into it if you don't believe it.
You can get rid of vengeance, I don't know where that came from? And giving some sense of satisfaction for victims is called Justice. So I think you pretty much described it. Don't be so vengeful.
"free" workshop/outdoor labour protection from the public mob from bringing about true justice. reserve of "nothing left to lose" human shields incase war ever breaks out. Keeping wardens and other high up law enforcement staff in employment because every government needs enforcers/judges. Positive reinforcement of governental optics.. "you need us in power to protect you from these dangerous people" ect ect.. collection of tax money from the public to account for the govs spending habits. Thats what the justice system is for.
I knew a psychopathic child bully when I was in primary school. He had been suspended multiple times. The last attack on one of his victims at the school-which was where each case took place-he was kicked out of school. And then later arrested. The attacks only took place over the span of less than a year. The first attack... He kicked a kids teeth in/out of his mouth. We were playing baseball. The victim was catcher at home plate. The victim took off his face guard while still squatting like a catcher. There was a difference of opinion on being out or not when the pitch was caught. Ans did the bully in question swing the bat or not. Victim two... Me. It was almost attempted murder. But it could have been more. The bully took a huge piece of a broken splintering piece of fence wood to my neck. Holding it to my throat. With both hands. I was sat down on and my hands were pinned behind my back. A really good friend of mine broke his collar bones to get the bully off me. Later that day, within about an hour or so, he was suspended from school. The last victim... This poor kid was sent to school with 3rd degree sunburn on his shoulders. And the bully had long tough fingernails. The sunburned kid had the soft sun damaged skin... peeled back, exposing the rest of the tissue. There was a lot of bleeding and screaming and crying, of course. Finally the bully was kicked out of school and later arrested and sent to an all boys correction facility. I still remember you Ronald. You hopefully ended up where you truly belong, permanently. It's been more than 30 years. But it's almost like it all happened yesterday. Kids are capable of more than adults, especially parents, want to believe.
I remember a boy in my elementary school, a real psycho bully. He used to team up with the big, fat boy who got held back 2 grades to beat up other kids (as in, the big boy held them so they couldn't fight back and the boy would beat them. I even got ropeburn on my neck, because I was once playing under a toy net thingy and they decided to yank it back and forth while it was still over my head, causing the rope to rub against my neck. What did the mother do? She always defended her only son. He was "an innocent little angel, he would never hurt anyone!" Well, after elementary school (which ends after grade 4 over here), he went to a different school and continued his antics. I heard that at 15, he got in trouble for forcing 2 11-year old boys to completely undress until naked in the boy's restrooms. Of course, the Mum kept defending him. Later he got in trouble for domestic violence against his girlfriend. Last thing I heard was he died from a drug overdose at age 22. This kid was not shaped by abuse, but rather had his sociopathic behaviour enabled by his mother. I don't think any rehabilitation could have helped here, and no amounts of outside punishments deterred him, either. Honestly? Good riddance. And I don't say that lightly, as someone who is all in support of rehabilitation > punishment. He would have been 31-32 today and I believe a lot of potential victims have been spared his brutality by his untimely death. As for the other kid? He turned out okay as far as I know. Never became successful or amounted to much, but last I heard was he had a job and was doing okay. He seemed like the kind of kid that hung around with the wrong crowd. But that bully boy? No chance.
@Windmelodie Some it seems by our experiences. And by the many other cases similar and much worse, they're really not all that able to be rehabilitated. Maybe up to a point with them but eventually the opportunity to act on their impulses is too much for them to resist. Some children are sadly a part of the environment that shaped them, either at home or somewhere other that is part of the social deviance, psychologically. Otherwise genetic issues within or some damage inherent in the brain. And some a slow growing tumor in the brain alters the brain chemistry. I guess it makes sense that at the two biggest stages in life: first at the beginning of the developmental years. And then again in the later stages of life when old and becoming much older. The brain of the senior starts to deteriorate: sometimes gradually, and sometimes at an alarming rate. Little children at both stages: one maturing-if they ever do. And the other returns to a child-like state in all or nearly all their faculties. They are becoming made, and later, being made undone. At least we survived better than our predators and bullies. We lived a less chaotic life, with luck and help from others that are sympathetic and have the ability to be empathetic. ❤️
People need to realize children are not innocent, instead they are ignorant. Children by nature are self centered and animalistic, it's the job of adults to shape empathy and selflessness. When you get mental health issues on top you have an even larger burden.
Selflessness is not a healthy trait. It will be endlessly and mercilessly exploited by everyone else whenever and however they see fit. Merely teach them to not needlessly mistreat others.
@Damuworld No. RHP morality teaches people how to be a convenient doormat to be used and discarded at will. It has no value whatsoever. Life is shades of grey. Teaching your child to be a dupe, a victim, a tool and a virtue-signaller is one of the worst things that you can do to them.
I knew a kid like that. I knew him from the day he was born. His mother abandoned him when he was an infant. Even as a toddler, he enjoyed breaking the belongings of people of all ages. He derived joy from upsetting other people. Soon after, he started enjoying physical violence. When another child became fearful of him, it was like he was intoxicated with joy, like that was the greatest feeling to him. He was about 4 or 5 years old at the time. He had no hesitation about doing whatever he felt like. If he was curious what it felt like to do something, he did it. His therapist suggested his father get him a pet to help him learn empathy. I found out years later that he had killed every pet he was given. When he was six, I caught him in my backyard, killing baby kittens a feral cat had given birth to. Except for the cries of the kittens, he looked just like a kid having fun tossing balls around. I will never forget the big grin on his face. He was having the time of his life. I told him to leave and not come back. I became very wary of him after that. I didn't want him anywhere near my home. When he started school, he became an extreme bully. He wanted all of the other children to be afraid of him. CPS was called because of his extreme violence. He was removed from his home and put into foster care. He went into several foster homes but was always sent back because of violence against pets and other children. He attacked one of his foster parents and sent her to the emergency room as well as causing physical damage to her home. He also attacked one of his state appointed therapists about that time. CPS gave up on him and sent him back to his father. He ran away several times but was always returned by the authorities until he turned 18. Then he just never came back. I don't know where he is now, but I hope I never see him again. He's the only child I was ever afraid of.
People like that tend to get sorted out by society, as we do not put up with juvenile and cruel bullsh*t nearly as much as we do when you're a kid (unless you're a politician, then it's part of the job)
Sounds like a real monster! And that's the thing, kids in general may not be born with empathy and have to be thought, but they're definitely not all alike and nurture isn't always the cause of these types of behavior. Some people are just born with a set of character traits that make them more prone to turning out not very good human beings. That kid seems to have been one of those cases, I doubt he could ever be redeemed.
I really appreciate the nuance of this issue, and I like that Simon did not try to answer the question himself. I worked in juvenile probation, and if I get a vote, I would like to advocate for an emphasis on rehabilitation with more severe sentences being applied on a case by case basis depending on recidivism. That way we can remove children from abusive situations and get them the help they might need, while avoiding "blanket policies" that could have unintended consequences. For example, Sweden does indeed impose very light sentences on juvenile offenders and focuses on rehabilitation, but that leaves the possibility of adults exploiting those policies by using children to commit crimes; knowing that their recruits will suffer less, which allows those adults to recruit more kids. And that's exactly what Swedish cocaine dealers have done; forming juveniles into gangs of child soldiers, essentially. Great video!
At least where I live the issue is with repeat offenders. My town of 200'000 has a revolving door of at least 1200 juveniles (Don't know the exact number as the local government is fairly tight-lipped on the matter) who regularly steal anything that isn't nailed door. Occasionally there is a killing when an armed robbery/carjacking goes wrong. I know that does sound like a lot of people but it is surprising the amount of chaos such a small group can cause. It has caused tensions to rise in more than a few neighbourhoods. The reoffending rate is above 90%: one of the few hard stats I could find. So my question to you is in situations like this is rehabilitation the best option? Cause I don't think locking them up for a long time is the answer either. A good chunk of these kids come from Aboriginal families (Native Australians) which are most of the time are chaotic situations at best. Jail is better than their home lives. Jail is a vacation for those kids. The system needs reform but I don't know what exactly. I'm not sure how well removing these kids from their families would go either as very few in the foster system would even want to take care of these kids.
Only if your rdy to sign with your life on the line if your right nothing happens but when the day comes that your wrong you will suffer the same consequences be it life in prison (more like death by time but anyway) or the death penalty you also have no rights to defend yourself or the person you signed for as it would be at that point it look like trying to get out of your contract exceptional crimes require exceptional evidence why shouldn't it be any different with the consequences
@ because it's not clear whether or not children are fully aware of the consequences of their actions. In fact, there's pretty good evidence to conclude that they have neither the full ability to rationalize or understand what exactly it is they are doing. You can make the argument that a 17-year-old has a better understanding, but even then it is clear they have less impulse control than a fully developed adult. Hell, even 18 years old is probably too young to be considered a "fully developed adult". Really it should be decided on a case by case basis, but bureaucracies don't do so well with nuance… And we need complex bureaucracies to maintain the societies we have built. So… Yeah...
Exactly, where you push children outside of the system they will be liable to remain there. During these formative experiences it's important to measure discipline against rehabilitation very carefully, on a case-by-case basis and with a focus on education.
as both a victim of bullying and former bully, yes. children CAN be cruel. it's not a matter of "how" because children know no limits until they face consequences. i was nine and my friend and i had bullied a 10-year-old senior (i view her as a senior and always) just because we thought that it was "too childish" for a nine-year-old to openly like the disney movie Frozen, let alone a 10-year-old. we'd call her names and even called her elsa, which she somehow was quite content about that until it had gotten overused. it took her passing on a message from her mum to me and my friend that if we didnt stop bullying her we'd face repercussions in order to end it. the victim and i ended up being friends after about a year and she and i have never brought up about that time again. i took it as a sign of her forgiving me and and my friend, but i cant say for sure. i can still feel the embarrassment, guilt and shame whenever i think about it or briefly discuss it with my friend that had not only supported me, but also TOOK PART in bullying my senior just for being passionate about something she likes. then i had two classmates who would annoy me relentlessly by either adjusting their seats and tables (one sat in front of me while the other sat behind me) and mocking me for no reason. the one that sat in front of me was the worst one of all, since the one at the back was just joining in for fun. he knew i wasnt one to snitch on others and he would say that i wasnt able to do anything about it even when i told him nicely not to annoy or mock me, going as far as saying that since i was a prefect (at the time), that meant i had to be "nice", i couldnt raise my voice, and that i somehow wasnt able to snitch on them, even though prefects are notoriously known as stuck-up goody-two-shoes who will tell tales on any one who breaks a rule. he took me being speechless at his stupidity as him being right. i hadnt felt so helpless in my life, since i apparently wasnt allowed to fight back in any way and was very passive until i started shouting at him. he wasnt facing any problems at home, had strict parents and was even (privately) punished by my teacher and had to switch our seats. despite after a year of this case being sloppily handled, he told me that if he ever had the chance to bully me again, he would. i had regrets ever forgiving him the moment i heard him let those words come out of his mouth. i know not everyone is as forgiving as her (my senior) and not every child is as soft as me & my friend, and that some people may be like my bully. kids can continue doing horrible acts of cruelty until they face the music for their actions. but even then some of them will either be nonchalant about it, or that they will straight up commit those acts of cruelty again purely for fun and/or to spite the world for daring to stop them from doing what they want to do. and thats a problem that we have not just in kids but in society as well. it's not just the justice system that has issues. it's the MINDSET. they either think that their actions are wrong or that they already know the world wont be very forgiving (understandable) so they find it pointless to better themselves. and we, as a society, arent any better when we hold grudges for life.
@selearbol True. I know this might not go over well since many think spanking leads to violent behavior in children but there are many kids that you can do any kind of “alternative” punishment you can think of and it won’t mean diddly squat to them BUT give them a spanking and it gets through. Some kids you have to punish harshly because nothing else will get them to understand. Some kids you have to send to jail because nothing else will get through to them. To them rehabilitation means you don’t think what they did was that big a deal.
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain You can't generalize when it comes to Kids. First of all: what is a kid? 8 years old? 12 years old? Both are in most cases VERY different stages in life. In general you can say that an 8 year old kid has a higher chance of rehabilitation than a 12 year old. But not always. Kids are a product of their enviroment. An 8 year old can already be broken beyond repair, true, but there are 12 year old that can still be rehabilitated as well. What certainly needs to happen is a change of enviroment and psychologic therapy. prison always NEEDS to be the absolutely last resort. Prison messes people up even more. a life sentence is what? 20 years in most states? imagine a 30 year old getting out of prison after 20 years in there. Thats how you create monsters. In my opinion its the parents that should be held liable if a kid younger than 12 becomes a criminal. If a kid is messed up it's in 99% of cases the parents fault. Kids mimic their enviroment. And the government has to make sure that children of abusive or neglectful parents get relocated as fast as possible. Only if a psychologic evaluation proves that a kid shows clear signs of psychopathy the kid should be detained. If it's an irreversible illness the kid will be a danger for itself and others for sure in one way or another. Even anti-social personality disorder is treatable. psychopathy is not.
@Paul_Davies always putting people down, huh? You clearly watched the video, and yet you don't appreciate the time and effort put into it. I should have said the entire team always makes an entertaining and compelling video, but I said only he did, so yea, i guess I could have been more specific, but you should also be more appreciative. This dude has a ton of channels, and it takes up a ton of his time. Not to mention, he is married with kids.
@@thomasfleming7606 always putting people down, where you get that from ? And yes I do appreciate Simon’s content as I’m subscribed to a few of his channels but as you noted you could have been more specific, I was only making an observation
I was a victim of an incident that could have led to either a brain injury or my death if it had been slightly different. The perpetrators were 12 and they never faced any consequences. The adults in my life didn't even recognise that there was any potential for harm, physically or psychologically. I honestly do believe in rehabilitation and restorative justice, but it's hard to reconcile this with the emotional reality of trauma. Yeah, my attackers get a chance to become a better person or whatever, but I get to have nightmares for the rest of my life?
Part of restorative justice is making sure the victim has access to whatever services they need to heal. It simply acknowledges that throwing people in cages doesnt really solve the issue in the end, and often makes things worse long term. Nobody should be left to suffer in these equations, and if anybody has told you that victims health is to be thought of less im very sorry. All life is equal in the care and respect it deserves.
Without going into details, I will say that, in my teenage years, I very nearly became someone who did some awful things to my peers. Between the literal lifelong abuse at home and in school and multiple undiagnosed issues, I was so severely depressed and full of so much hopelessness and rage toward everyone, including myself, that just a little bit more of a push could have definitely sent me over the edge. I know that’s not always the case for kids who do things like this, but I’m sure some out there were like I was.
@@chrisspulis1599 that’s because my comment wasn’t to you or regarding my feelings in hindsight. The comment was about the matter at hand, which was how do children commit violent acts. I don’t need to explain to you my full range of emotions of processing my childhood for the past 20 years.
@@TheSapphireSprit kids don’t just fall out of coconut trees 🤷♀️ Some surely were born “evil,” but I think it’s much more common that a complex, devastating system of genetic and environmental factors drive kids to violence.
@@chrisspulis1599they didn’t say they did anything either, and in a shell that was me as well. I didn’t do anything unbecoming. Joined the military during war, got out grew up have a family, house. I did things people wouldn’t agree with these days but most sane people most would. I don’t care
One of my bullies was technically supposed to be in a special class because of his dangerous and psychopathic behavior (he was diagnosed with a plethora of things that made him dangerous) but his parents refused and said he was to be treated as a normal child so the school had to keep him. He was a frkn terror. His eyes were just blank and he enjoyed seeing people hurt and inflicting both physical and mental pain. He was also the popular kid because he was charming and manipulative and everyone knew that you were either his friend/runner or his victim. I know about the mental health parts because my teacher told my mom this. Teacher didn't mention any names or identifying factors of the kid, but it wasn't hard to figure out who it was. He was terrifying. I hope I never run into him again.
Kids like that are just copying what their parents do to them. Don't trust what their parents say, what someone claims and the reality of things are two very different things sometimes.
So does that mean we should lock up children for decades? Where does that stop? A 17-year-old murderer, maybe that's OK. But an 11-year-old? A six-year-old?
People forget that kids are people too, and aren't the pure little unicorns that society makes them out to be. I'm 34 and I still have clear memories from when I was only 3 years old so at 3 years old I was a fully sentient, discerning, intelligent being. I am grateful to have lived in a peaceful, relatively safe town where violence like in the video really did not happen. People need to stop treating kids like dumb pets and start treating them like fellow people.
Yes to this. I remember being a child and feeling outraged when I learned that minors are 100% unaccountable in Brazil. I knew very well that my actions affected other people, so why were all those monsters getting alway with literal murder???????
It seems entirely *un*empathetic when people treat them like unicorns. It disgusts me. I'm so tired of people causing harm for "good" reasons not being seen as harm at all. It's entirely justified for an 8 year old to do literally anything and be morally upstanding. How are we expecting them to transition to suddenly being morally scrutinized for every tiniest error once they turn 20? it's disgusting.
Children also don't like it when they aren't treated as people. This becomes obvious when you compare how children react to adults who treat them as people compared to those who don't. Naturally, they react positively to being taken seriously, with the exception of some older children who aren't used to this in the slightest who might be a bit confused at first. I'm lucky enough to have grown up in an environment where I was treated like a person rather than some sentient property. This in turn made us take ourselves and our actions a lot more seriously which I think was a good thing. Another consequence of this upbringing was that adults who didn't see us as real people usually had a hard time dealing with us.
Simon here is going to allow me to go on my soapbox about children and the way we as a society tend to treat them - like property and not persons. The 'problem' with children who kill is pretty much the same problem we have with adults who kill. Some people do so with motives incomprehensible to others; some people meticulously plan out their heinous deed. Some people can be rehabilitated; some people cannot. Every human mind is different in this regard. It's almost as if children are actual living breathing human beings like the rest of us, and not blank slate inanimate creatures that can be molded into what we adults want out of them. Childhood "innocence" is largely a myth.
The idea of childhood 'innocence' is laughable - children are TERRIFYING. They are capable of every bit of evil an adult is and, even worse than that, they'll do it without properly understanding just how evil they're being. The 'innocence' of children has never been that they don't do awful things, it's that they can do them without even understanding why or having a motive beyond being bored.
best comment on here. It's not a question of age, there's mature adults and stupid adults as there are mature children and innocent children, each case should be reviewed on its own.
@@aecides3203 I will add on - children can absolutely properly understand the evil they are committing. They can plan their crimes out meticulously and sadistically. though, you're right, MOST children that do awful things do not have an understanding of the consequences, and the fact that they can commit violent acts purely impulsively is terrifying. the difference between a child and an adult, of course, is that a child is still developing. they're easier to "course correct", in a way. and it is truly my opinion that for a child to be outwardly sadistic, there is a degree of child neglect or abuse going on. even if the child is predisposed to being cruel and unempathetic, for the child to not get help and to continue said behaviour means that they are not being raised properly in some way. no child is born evil, but every child is born a human, just like any one of us. and humans are fucking scary.
The unfortunate reality of the situation is this Some kids are naturally bad, some are nurtured into being bad, and some are orchestrated or cornered into doing bad From there rehabilitation and providing help where needed are the best options but unfortunately there are some who can not be rehabilitated, thus need to be kept behind bars for everyone else’s safety
The issue is that children generally are not "naturally bad", because they depend on the adults in their lives to teach them how to properly interact with their environment. Even if children have certain tendencies, it is on the guardians in their lives to teach them how to deal with their impulses and emotions. To pick up on and to acknowledges these things is the adult's responsibility. If that doesn't happen it is a failure on the part of the parents/guardians of children. Doesn't mean it is something that is done consciously, but there is a reason why adults are responsible for their (adopted) offspring.
@@mejuliie It has been proven at this point that some children are born as you would say “naturally bad”. As you noted though, good parenting can put a psychopath on the path to brain surgeon, instead of serial killer. Part of the problem is that we aren’t allowed to label anyone under 18 as a psychopath and get them the intervention they need. The other problem is that most parents aren’t equipped to parent a psychopath into a productive member of society. So prison it is.
@@giabarrone7422 i'm a Sadist. My parents weren't great, they didn't even know I was one. But they weren't bad. That is literally all it took for me to not be a terrible person. Sure, I'm not the best person, but all it took was okay-ish parents. Kids are born "naturally bad", but it is so easy to nudge them in the right direction... It is ALWAYS someone elses fault if a kid ends up violent. Sure, you can blame the kid too, but someone else needs to be blamed as well.
That's and if you're a path path but have an iq less then 100 you are far less likely to have impulse control - meaning you' can't be rehabilitated sadly due to that lack of impulse control @@giabarrone7422
Not holding children accountable at all can also be a very serious issue for society. In Sweden children under 15 can't be prosecuted, which has led to criminal organizations & gangs to begin recruiting teenagers to commit their killings and bombings, in exchange for money, sex or drugs - or even a membership in a gang. Especially children in group homes are targeted as recruits, because they are most vulnerable to be influenced with promises of belonging and luxuries. Some massive reform is needed. This is an issue that will not be solved with simply lowering the age limit, nor will it solve itself by continuing as is. It's a failure in multiple levels of society, and simple solutions aren't the answer. Poverty & substance abuse of parents is the biggest driving factor of kids ending up in the system where they are preyed upon. Children ending up in group homes when at-home support has been cut, children not receiving enough support in group home environment because of lack of funding, children feeling abandoned and left out when they can't enjoy the same things their peers take for granted...
I learned how cruel children could be far too early. From day one of school when I was six years old to the start of grade 8 (13 years old, I'm not american our system is different) I was bulied. It went through six years of constant bullying. Four years of physcological torture, where I was isolated to the point that what I looked forward to the most each day was walking around a tree, alone, on recess. Then two years of physical bullying. I lost my childhood to that bullying. I was depressed from the age of 8 to 14. I am luckily in a better place now and it started with getting to change school but I never got to really be a child. Those years messed me up and I still have a lot of issues from it. Don't get me started on the trustissues I developed. 1.5 years after changing school I got diagnosed with autism (asd) which explained why I was most likely bullied. Some chcildren are just downright awful.
I relate to your comment a lot. In 5-6 grade I was bullied a lot and too spent most days walking around a tree. I learned to be quiet and to fade into the background. I am now 13 and still struggle with expressing myself emotionally and developing much of a personality. A child's innocence is just ignorance with a cute face.
In Norway we have forvaring, don´t know the adequate word in english. but it means that the person after his/hers 21 years sentence can be hold behind bars indefinite if they still are deemed dangerous to the society-
@@voshadxgathicno, it's a bit of a different beast (we have the same thing here in Germany). The point is not punishment and the offender is officially released from prison once their sentence is up or they receive parole. However, on their release, they are immediately committed to a forensic psychiatry unit without further judicial review. At that point, they are essentially treated the same as someone found not guilty by reason of insanity would be. This is most commonly used for psychopaths who know full well their actions are wrong but don't care.
You should dive into the details of the recent case you mention from Michigan. There are things that came to light in the trial that make holding his parents responsible perfectly understandable.
I agree that while lawyers say this case was groundbreaking to hold the parents responsible for a child's actions, they should have been charged with medical neglect long before as the child had needed mental health care and not received it and they knew that he was a threat to others or himself - that is when you take ANYONE to the hospital or call 911. If another adult you knew was clear they would harm others and you provided a weapon I would hope you would get charged with everything the state could charge you with! These were parents and had a responsibility to care for their child and his health and to also keep him from harming other people. I am in the field where I am regularly with kids and parents who have mental health issues where the child has thoughts/plans to harm self or others and they are normally hospitalized and I have had a parent refuse to put their knives in a lock box to stop their kid from self harm/exiting and it's a call to CPS when a child is not being cared for and the parent is endangering the child's health. If the issue is something that will be fast acting and can't wait then it's a call to PD and the on call CPS worker. It's still a call to PD!!! The Michigan one is disgusting and some people are not meant to be parents.
there are two members of my family i can think of that basically describe their upbringing under my grandmother in very similar ways, incredibly abusive. One of them turned into a saint who is nothing but love and care as a way to compensate for how bad she felt as a kid. The other fully fell into hatred and racism and lives her life alone and secluded. Some people make it, others break.
I you look into th story if Mary, her abuse is hollywood tragedy levels of pain. Its not a common qbuse case at all, or at least in terms of "regulat" abuse. Her mother tried to "accidentally" kill her several times, and was a sex worker who would receive money to let people rape her daughter. Mary teuly deserved help, and her never re-offending imo is proof that she was let down by tjose who should have helped her before it was too late
To me, it boils down to protecting the public and keeping them safe. If that includes rehabilitation, locking them up forever, a chance at parole, etc I don't care, as long as the public is being kept safe.
I feel it's worth mentioning that since Jon Venables was released, he has drunkenly revealed his identity multiple times, and been caught with cp, and still gets identity protection from the government. I feel like it's pretty obvious he wasn't rehabilitated into an upstanding citizen, and I believe he no longer deserves his false identity.
There’s a point in which we need to consider the safety and wellbeing of others rather than the freedom of someone is likely to cause harm. The motive for abuse and murder means nothing to the person who suffers at their hands.
Well, yes, of course the suffering of the victim and their family must be taken into account. Also public safety. But I see a huge difference between sending a 12 year old into adult prison or into a closed psychiatric facility. In both cases the kid is under lock and key, but in the latter case they actually get the help they need, and they get the chance to be productive in some way instead of being locked away with adult criminals where they only learn more about how to be a criminal.
@@semadt It assumes that they can be helped. Most mental illnesses such as, psychopathy, narcissism, borderline, paranoid and others similar cannot be cured. Which means that there are many individuals that you simply cannot help, cure, rehabilitate.
@@Mary-cw4lf No, I don't. I know bits and pieces, and then only about the ones in my country, not the US. Still, locking those kids up with other criminals in a justice system that is not geared towards rehabilition can't be the solution. These people need a perspective of some kind, even if it is one of staying behind bars until the end. But criminals without a perspective, without any hope are even more dangerous. Add to that a lack of education, and they will fall victim to any number of other inmates, especially if those are adult, unrepentant criminals themselves. If the length of their sentence demands they need to be placed with these people eventually, giving them some sort of foundation to find some minor contentment, some goal beyond breathing free air again could give them the tools to not fall victim without meaning to. Also, you can't tell me kids who are murdering at ten, twelve years of age aren't psychiatrically compromised in some way. Someone needs to figure out what's up with these kids, and whether they can be helped or if anything particular needs to be done to ensure their safety and that of their surroundings. Do they need medication to control some kind of disorder? Are they neurodivergent in some way, and does that influence how they view the world and how the world perceives them? If they do have serious problems that mean society needs to be protected from them for the remainder of their lives, have someone document it so a decade, two, three decades later this is a known factor. If they can get help to be a functioning member of society again, let them get that help so that when they get out of prison after their sentence, if and whenever that may be, they have a chance. Don't forget, the young age of these kids mean they have sixty, seventy years or more of life still to live. Whatever solution you discuss to resolve the punishment vs. help issue needs to take this into account.
My kids are in the middle of a nasty and mentally abusive parental conflict. My son has shown signs of being unstable since he was in kindergarten. With dad and his sick behaviors it’s now escalating. We have been investigated by home land security. He is a potential school shooter or on that level. During this custody battle I have tried to explain to the courts, police and cps that dad is also similar and sick in the mind. No one believes me and think I am retaliating in custody. I am worried for my children. I am worried for those who have to care for my kids in school. My son has made people quit with the threats he makes. To the dad nothing is wrong and this is normal. Because dad has had similar thoughts as a child and teen. I deeply regret not being in a healthy family and choosing a bad father. I was not able to flee the state and try harder to break this cycle.
Gosh, how many school shootings do we need to convince us that children are not all good and pure!? Those who are bullied in school know first hand that children are capable of evil. The only question is: are they smart enough to avoid getting caught?
My family is dealing with this right now--my nephew (who had been abused by both his parents) tried to kill his stepfather (who had recently married my sister) last year, and we're all trying to come to terms with it and trying to figure out if there's even anything that we can do to help him.
Self-defence is different to these ones where they murdered a peer or younger person for no good reason. Hopefully your nefew just needs some therapy and prayer and isn't likely to harm without cause 😉 🙏🏼
The story of Sharon Carr in England (she killed an 18-year-old she didn't even know when she was 12) is so incredibly chilling. She is now in her mid-20s and is still in custody, but the thought that she may one day get out is terrifying.
The Jordan Brown case was insane. Based on the media coverage at the time, I thought for sure he was guilty and being tried as an adult was what he deserved, but now it seems probable the murder was committed by someone else. I'd always hoped Simon and his wonderful writers would take a stab at the case so I could actually understand what happened and how things went so wrong with the investigation and court case.
I like that Simon gives these topics the weight and seriousness that they deserve. My personal over-simplified opinion on this is that every child deserves at least one chance to be rehabilitated. I like to believe that this opinion would not change even if one of my loved ones was killed by a child but I don't know. It's easy to preach about morals when you've never been in a situation that confronts them
Not sure if you're going to bring her up but Victoria Dalton of San Antonio Texas was my sister's best friend and I saw her everyday for years. She murdered her two younger siblings, smothered them. They were babies. The situation was horrible at her home. Her mother was addicted to drugs and left her there alone for days with those babies. I didn't know about it and I don't know why my mom didn't call the police, probably because my mom sucks too. But anyway, she was the youngest person to be tried as an adult at that point in the state of Texas. She was 14 when they tried her.
In Japan, a young boy hooked into 2chan bought a knife, hijacked a bus, and made two old women bleed to death. Yet the Japanese courts used the juvenile laws to lower his sentence. Same goes for Seito Sakakibara - serial killer who killed three children, hanged a head into a school gate, and played tricks against cops. The verdict? The same. What's worse is that Seito became an author and detailed his gruesome murders. Juvenile crime can be really dangerous.
I have more intimate knowledge in this area and I wanted to add some facts about kids who are known risks to others - There is NOT support, placements, facilities, etc. in the US for kids whom mental health professionals KNOW and have DIAGNOSED with issues around hurting others and finding help for this is extremely hard!!! Many adolescent and pediatric facilities accept kids with depression, anxiety, ADHD, ptsd, etc., but kids who knowingly harm other kids and adults makes it incredibly hard to find placement. A case that comes to mind is where a pediatric client under the age of 12 was released from a mental health facility and the parents did everything they were supposed to - locked up all sharps, no guns, no knives, no lighters, etc - and the child broke into the neighbors home to find "sharps". Our mental health system struggles to help these kids BEFORE a crime is committed. The issue of life vs rehabilitation is hard to answer due to the question of each situation being a nuanced situation. Some kids act this way due to more nature vs nurture and rehab will not fix what this person's brain was born to do. Other cases are very nurture based and the child is in an environment where abuse has occured, they have witnessed violence and acts of violence, and if the child had grown up in a healthy home things would have likely been incredibly different. I think far more emphasis should be put into rehabilitation for these cases, but it is costly, we don't have enough mental health professionals to do this, and we don't have enough trained in this area to do this. Then we need to figure out which is the nature vs nurture cases and this is not always so simple. A psych eval can only do so much. The law is also incredibly black and white where sentences are laid out for crimes and specific numbers are used such as age 18 to be a legal adult. Some kids I work with are chronologically 16 yrs old and emotionally about 6 yrs old because that is when the abuse started and they stagnated on their development emotionally. I think you can see how you may expect a 16 yr old to understand something better, but the reality is that this 16 yr old is emotionally about 6 yrs old and fragile as a 6 yr old and doesn't understand so going by a black and white age can put kids into having consequences for something that they don't fully grasp. This is the issue I have run into with the law in juvenile courts. The law is black and white and unforgiving about the circumstances of the child as we base everything on chronological age with black and white thinking when things are significantly more GREY in this area and Simon could make a much longer video about this. - - Think of your friends in middle and high school. Some of you caught on to concepts, social cues, emotional development, dating, responsibility, etc. much faster than your friends. This was likely in fairly healthy homes and kids develop at different rates so why does he law hold everyone to the exact same standard that is so cut and dry in black and white? What did you do as a kid that was a major mistake and wrecked your parents/neighbors/uncles car/living room/important item, but you are not spending the rest of your life paying for it?! Did you ever squeeze the hamster too hard because you didn't know better? Did that make you a bad person?
To put in a bit of perspective, i WAS raised correctly in regard to socio emotional stuff, and despite my best efforts to do the right thing, whatever part of my brain needed to start developing inorder to fully understand that stuff did not start kicking in until recently at like 23, So theres a neurological development bit in there on the inverse side of the social one you mentioned aswell. Despite having all the required ques and reinforcers i just couldent "get it", and frankly my behavior before the fact was embarrassing at best, totally unhinged at worst. heck i dont even know if i would get it now if the impulsive side of me that was running the show at the time had not gone and obtained stimulant medications and utilized them at a more than recommended amount, something flipped on like a light switch and has stayed on since where it now feels i have enough perception and control of myself to understand the world around me. Interestingly enough also shut off the compulsion to do that type of thing. Before even with the right information and very much wanting and trying to do the right thing and be considerate because thats who i feel i am and want to be as a person, there was just a missing piece i dident have that prevented good judgement despite the best of intent, and apparently my dad dident really "get it" until his early to mid 30s, so there is definitely like you said both a nature and nurture aspect, as clearly something that runs in my familly slows that part of development down substantially while the rest zooms ahead. Should i have kids though im getting them those medications as soon as possible, id imagine at a more moderate level early on and carried on that development could happen more naturally without the confused development followed by abrupt clarity
@@therideneverends1697 It's a complicated question to answer as you and your partner would need to have a conversation knowing there is a possibility that the child COULD have this genetic factor and there MAY be this challenge or they could be angelic and such an easy kid to raise. You make a good point about the fact your brain did not "kick in" or you didn't find the help and answers until age 23 and your father until his 30's while other people developed differently around you. Neuropsychology is still a developing field where we are learning more and more about how the brain works, thinks, impulses, decision making, etc. and it's not all figured out yet. We likely know more now than when you were a teen and struggling however. As far as the legal aspects a very good doctorate of behavioral psychology once told me that the law is about 25 years behind any and all mental health info there is available and that is a very kind guess as I have seen some courts/judges (usually older white male judges) be of the opinion that PTSD is ONLY a war related issue and does not happen outside of people who have actively served in the armed forces. Our laws and our judges need to stick to their roles and allow the medical professionals who need to be current on new medical information to do their job and inform the courts as professionals.
To be fair, the Oxford shooter's parents (do not say his name, do not show his picture, take away his fame) bought him a high powered rifle KNOWING he had violent fantasies about harming his classmates.
Children aren’t little piles of kindness. If they are not taught to be nice, then they will be cruel most times. Bullying is a huge thing. The extremes of it (sometimes it isn’t even on the extreme side) is basically torture.
If the crime is just flat out murder or rape or another similar violent offense that ends or ruins someones life forever then there needs to be consequences. If a kid is 13+ my opinion is they need to face the crime they committed, with their age as a mitigating circumstance on sentencing. I simply do not buy the argument that the average 13 year old does not understand the consequences of a serious crime. Obviously all the usual mitigating circumstances need apply for mental illness, delayed development etc. Any younger than that and I feel they need to be housed in a secure facility and given therapy, treatment and rehabilitation until they can be proven to not be a danger to society. While I think 11 and 12 year olds might often fit the above too, any law does need a cut off and I think 12/13 is reasonably where you should expect the average kid to know between right and wrong in their society.
I think knowing your culture right vs wrong, and understanding the consequences of your actions are two VERY different things when we look at children’s understanding of consequences/time etc. I also think it’s more complicated then this. A 13 year old, with a normal IQ and a normal background may know right from wrong. A 13 year old, with a lower IQ/borderline disability, being brought up to only know suffering/abuse/violence, being taught by their parents that the only way to meet your needs is to be violent, may not be responsible for their actions.
@@Bringon-dw8dx I agree with everything you said about nuance, which is why I did mention further mitigating circumstances on sentencing. Upbringing circumstances, abusive surroundings, development are all things that definitely must be factored in, along with a hundred other things we could list. I do feel though that any law you make about an age of criminal responsibility is going to have to have an actual age built in and then have safeguards built around HOW the process takes place after that. It sucks, and it is once again another factor where rich kids with expensive lawyers will get better outcomes than some kid with a public defender.. but that is another discussion on how fucked capitalism is. I do genuinely believe that the age that an average kid both knows right from wrong AND knows there is consequences from their actions is about 13. I did not seperate those ideas in my original post and I should have.
@@cantsay2205No one is asking anyone to foster violent children. There are specialized facilities that help provide professional treatment and rehabilitation for violent children. That rehabilitation might also include eventually getting children in a foster home, so they can learn what healthy family dynamics look like and are surrounded by supportive people, while still receiving professional help. Again, no one is forcing anyone to invite violent people (children or adults) into their homes.
I think everybody has known a kid who was a psychopath to their core. I don't know what causes it, but some people are born psychopaths. I know a psychopath and he has told me he enjoys hurting people, and he especially enjoys talking other people into hurting somebody. This is a core part of themselves.
I feel people over use the word psychopath (not discounting the person you know I don’t know them) but actual diagnosable, psychopaths are pretty rare and most of them don’t commit crimes, I think a lot of people can just turn off or blunt their empathy or have sadistic tendencies without having psychopathy
@@Danheron2 @kingjellybean9795 the person I knew attempted to kill people in sneaky ways as a game. I know of somebody unrelated he killed by accident when he tried to kill someone else. He has no conscience that I know of, and doesn't care who he hurts as long as he can do it deviously so he isn't ever caught. I didn't think people like him existed outside fiction, but there he was. Even threatening and hurting me. And there was nothing I could do about it. I hope you never meet a real psychopath. 🤕
I remember the reaction to the Jamie Bulger case over here in the UK. It was... disspiriting. Simon is right about the difficulty. How on earth are you supposed to make a judgement about something like that?
How do women make a judgment on an unborn child? How's one okay and not the other. On one hand the unborn is just an "inconvenience" in most cases and in the case of kids who k*ll they've already shown why should they be gone.
Most children who kill have been abused however most abused children don’t kill. I wrote my masters criminology dissertation on the age of criminal responsibility and I still don’t have the answer. We should be trying to rehabilitate the young before their brains fully form but in some cases they cannot be rehabilitated if they are a psychopath for example. It’s such an emotive issue and one we will continue to grapple with 😔
As someone who was viciously bullied as a kid, I can say unequivocally that kids are little monsters, even the "nice" ones. I guarantee you have NO idea what an ugly little hatemonger your kid actually can be, with little or no reason. Real talk.
I also underwent a great deal of bullying growing up. I made some observations. There are basically 3 types of "bad kids". There are the rebels who are basically just carefree kids, there are the bullies, and then there are the psychopaths. The rebels are often lumped in with these kids, but really shouldn't be, because they aren't malicious. The bullies are horrible people, who will grow up to be that terrible boss in your corporation, because they always have things "their way" and people always placate them. The psychopaths are a completely different breed. These are "broken" humans who can't be fixed. These are the kids who torture animals...and enjoy it. They grow up to be mass shooters. Thankfully, the psychopath group is in the minority. But you have to understand, they cannot ever be reformed. They are deeply disturbed and sick individuals.
@@genx7006I feel like that’s a wild simplification lol I’ve known many bullies who were absolute bastards as kids and grew up to be good guys, I also know a kid who was one of the sweetest kid (and from what I know remains a really nice guy according to my sister who dated him) who killed 4 people in two days in two different gang shootings, I feel what you’re preaching is what they used to believe in the 70s that kid that are bad as kids will be bad for life and they should be marked as such which is just a recipe for disaster
@@Danheron2 Please don't mistake what I am saying. Someone who ends in a gang and guns someone down, while a heinous act of criminality, is not the same as someone who methodically tortures and kills someone for the pure enjoyment. These are two types of people. I was referring to the deranged lunatic type.
I helped raised kids of various relatives and I can usually factor in things and "presume" who will be good, who will be naughty, and who will be evil.thankfully I have yet to meet a truly evil kid. sadly, parents usually refuse to see that their kids are going down hill or have no means to stop their kids short of imprisoning them.
When I was very young (6yrs at the very most), whenever I would get angry, I would hit my sister. I didn't see anything wrong with this until our mom sat me down and explained that what I was doing was hurting my sister. My sister was terrified of what I'd do to her when she told mom. I can still remember very clearly the horror and shame that I felt when I understood what I was doing. I'm 35 now and I've never hit my sister or anyone else in anger since. I wonder how many stories would have different endings if there had been someone who could have gotten them to understand what they were doing. I know not all of them would change for the better (or at all), but maybe some of them would have
@@ViraIshniaYou are right. Parenting plays a pivotal role, and children depend on their parents to correct unwanted behavior and teaching them the skills to deal with their emotions in a safe and more productive way. That being said, I'm glad that you had the support you needed and a parent that helped you understand your behavior, thereby helping in adjusting it. Your story perfectly illustrates that children often really are just unaware of how their behavior affects others. Children depend on parents/guardians to teach them how to interact with their environment.
The one thing I'm confudent in, is that children do not understand permanence and what consequences are. Once a child commits a severe crime, whether or not they go to jail is beyond me, I'd have to be on a jury and in a courtroom watching a specific case. But what I do wonder is what happens if we arrest a 12 year old. Children have to be raised... So how do they raise incarcerated children? What do we do when the child gets to be 18 and might be acquitted, and they get put out onto the streets to either reoffemd or die?
I believe the problem is that we are assuming that Punishment vs Rehabilitation are the only two options. The real answer, in my opinion, is to look at this from a public safety perspective. When you boil it down to that, it is no longer an emotional argument about loaded concepts like justice. It is a scientific question, a logical question, one we can answer on a case by case basis. The only question that matters, truly, under such a scheme is whether or not the child poses a danger to public safety. As long as they are found to be dangerous, they must be kept locked up. If they are no longer dangerous, then they can transition back to society.
I agree with the public safety perspective. But I also think it is important that incarcerated/institutionalised children need to be provided with living conditions that don't harm their emotional and social development any further. If the living conditions in custody are unsuitable for children (e.g. in most adult prisons), they will likely be even more damaged than before they were instituionalised, so rehabilitation becomes very difficult or even impossible. So keep them locked up/ very closely supervised but respect their developmental needs and human rights (as much as this is possible without causing serious harm to other people), so that they might have a chance at rehabilitation at some point in the future.
I'm from the town where James Bulger was taken from. I remember being so shocked and disturbed that the killers were the same age as me. I also remember there were protests outside the courthouse when they appeared in front of the magistrates for preliminary hearings. I feel their sentences were too lenient (as do many in this area for obvious reasons). James' mum worked tirelessly for years to try and keep them behind bars but was ignored. They were released with new identities. One of them went on to commit further crimes against children (CP). While i agree with restorative justice, it's hard to feel that way with a case so close to home.
This conversation rings close to home. I live and grew up in a Canadian city that was home to Canadas youngest multiple murderer. At the age of 12 Jasmine Richardson, woke up in the middle of the night, quietly let her 23 year old boyfriend into the house & under his supervision, she carried out their plan and crept room to room stabbing her father, mother, & 8 year old brother to death. All because her parents, rightfully so, didn't exactly approve of a 23 year old creep, who claimed to be a 200 year old werewolf(im not joking, i went to school with this guy and he was fucked in the head even then),dating their 12 year old daughter. He got life in prison but, due to Canadian law requiring a person must be 14 to be tried as an adult and the maximum amount of time a child could be put in prison for any crime was 8 years, Jasmine was released at the age of 20 years old with not only a high school education but also the university degree she acquired while still locked up. Her name was also immediately changed upon release and then moved away somewhere to disappear and start a brand new life.
I love your ceramic succulents random I know to bring it up with such topics but your channel is so horrific and so nonchalant it’s insane almost to comprehend
_"Suzie! Look at your dreess. It's completely stained! What did we tell you?! You do not off your playmates, alright? That's very very naughty. Now go and apologize to your offed friend's parents. And no more screen time for an entire week, young lady!"_
I don’t get where this idea of “childhood innocence” comes from, children can be incredibly capricious, nasty & brutal, seems like a patronizing projection from nostalgic adults than based in any reality, that’s not even scratching the surface especially if we are taking about teenagers who are often considered as children these days, do they no longer read “Lord of the Flies” in HS or is that considered too “problematic” these days I wonder? It did have the N word at least in one edition, but perhaps even the themes as whole, raising kids in “safe spaces” has just led to dysfunctional childlike adults
At age 6, my undiagnosed autism led me to outbursts where I lashed out at my environment and the adults in it. My parents and educators responded by torturing me through a combination of daily restraint protocols and near-constant punishment in the form of suspension and grounding for *years* . I came to believe I was a monster who was incapable of success and who would always be a pox on the lives of those I loved... and who loved me. Children... can be broken by the monsters around them... but does that make them monsters?
My heart breaks for you. My 6 year old has autism. I cut him a lot of slack aka I aim to meet him where he is developmentally. You can’t make children something they’re not, but you can destroy them.
My 11 yr old cousin just tried to stab his friend with a kitchen knife. His punishment was 1 week no tv. Smh. Hes been violent his entire childhood. Constantly punching and kicking. My aunt gets the most of it but he does it to other ppl too witha giant smile on his face. He will laugh when u get hurt cause he thinks it's funny. He also lies alot and has no empthay. He cant sympathize unless u relate it back to his life. Otherwise he just laughs at u and calls u names like stupid, weak, etc. He was tested and he has an extremely low EQ level for his age. Whether thats cuz hes a sociopath or hes just stunted im not sure. I believe hes at the very least a narcissist. Im a grown adult and there have been times where his lack of sympathy and the smile on his face when hes hitting my aunt send shivers down my spine. He genuinely gives me the creeps and i refuse to be left alone with him. I hope he grows out of it but hes already 11 and only gotten worse. I wouldnt be suprised if he hurts someone someday.
It would be interesting for a casual criminalist episode on the Jamie bulger case. It's one case that sticks with me especially looking at how one ended up re-offending
Three weeks after my nephew turned 15, he murdered his two little brothers. Our family was thrust into an indescribably horrifying nightmare. I was amazed at the most common reactions of people who heard his story: blaming the parents or dismissing the child as evil. I've realized that those two reactions are a safety mechanism....by latching on to those "causes," people can convince themselves that it could never happen to their family. I hate to say it, but that belief is a delusion. If it could happen in our family, to good parents and with a seemingly loving child, then it can happen anywhere. Unfortunately, we have a system that wants to lock violent children away as quickly as possible, without trying to learn from them. As a result, we are unable to spot the NEXT perfect kid who becomes a monster. My nephew is in prison, where he belongs, but only a limited number of people are safer due to his incarceration. I DEEPLY wish that our legal system had studied him, evaluated him, monitored him, LEARNED from him, so that we can spare other families from the nightmare that we have lived.
It's not a delusion. We hold parents responsible for their children for a reason. Same as children aren't considered adults until the age of 18. That doesn't mean that the parents are knowingly or willfully failing to address issues their child may have. The reality however is that it is just as much a parents responsibility to know if their children show violent behavior, to then address it and seek help if necessary. Parents don't have to be malicious and extremely abusive to fail in raising their children to be functioning members of society. But children's (and teenager's) brains are not fully developed until they reach their mid-20s. They have little concept to the consequences their behavior elicits, lack the ability to think long-term, and are generally less aware of how their actions might hurt others. I'm truly sorry what your family went through. There also seems to be little chance that your nephew will be rehabilitated.
@mejuliie In my nephew's case, after a year, counselors finally decided that my nephew killed his sibs because his parents didn't fight enough in front of the kids. They believed that, as a result, their kids didn't see conflict resolution in action enough. THAT was the biggest crime anyone could pin on the parents. If having a reasonably peaceful house causes kids to murder, then how do we raise safe kids? Fight, argue, beat and abuse in front of them? As I said earlier, it can happen in ANY house.
@donijeffery-harris3056 Those honestly sounds like very unprofessional counselors. Especially as I'm sure your nephew did learn some strategies of conflict resolution by having sibling, and his parents intervening and providing help to properly deal with conflicts and emotions. He would also have learned about it to some extent in school and in other social settings. Also not something that generally can be pinned after just a year of counseling. Something, which I'm personally not a fan of, psychotherapy with a psychiatrist is what you'd want in a case like this. But I also understand if that simply not feasible. While I do hope his parents will be able to understand what may have led to it to find closure eventually, I also hope they are able to move on from any guilt they might feel. As I said before, mistakes happen and some children are just predisposed to violent behavior that may be difficult to address. I also understand how frustrating it must be to you and your family, as it's difficult to pin down what exactly went wrong. Especially when his parents tried their best to be good parents and shield your nephew from conflict. Unfortunately, it is so different from person to person that there is no single, perfect way to parent. Something that also popped into my head while I continued to think of the tragedy your family experienced, that he may have had a psychotic break. Which is often what leads, otherwise well-adjusted people, to do something that is absolutely not like them without any warning signs. This can be triggered by underlying mental health issues (e.g. schizophrenia) or drug consumption (doesn't have to be hard drugs, cannabis for example can trigger psychotic episodes in people who are predispose to psychosis or schizophrenia).
As a child who could have been diagnosed at a very young age with a mental health issue, I really think the average member of the public doesn't understand childhood trauma, and how the cycle of violence churns out more violence. I also think that to combat child caused violence, we need to work on domestic violence and intimate partner violence. These two highly linked types of violence could reduce a whole lot of violence in the world. Not just in children, but a lot of adult offenders too. All the causes of DV/IPV are varied, so it would require serious effort, but reducing these kinds of violence including their root causes would do a tremendous amound of good. Including the economy, for those who will whinge about cost (Australia alone would save many millions a year for the economy if it could eliminate DV/IPV). It does sounds idealistic, but also as a victim of childhood DV and adult DV that caused PTSD, it's more horrific than war (DV victims who get PTSD get it at rates twice higher than that of active combat veterans do, and we don't get basic training to psychologically condition us for it. Not saying they don't have it rough; PTSD sucks. Just they're not getting it in the place they're supposed to be safe, their home, and from people who are supposed to care about them. Veterans do have it rough in their very own seperate ways, and that can be PTSD that causes more PTSD or even worse cPTSD too). I think once DV/IPV has been eliminated, it'll be easier to look at and examine people who have the psychopathy traits and how they are their own issues in the cycle of violence.
This is why social services can forcibly take children into custody. But research has shown that the state has completely failed to take care of the children in care. They end up with pedophiles or are just used as a monetary income and are completely neglected. Haven't heard that it would work better in other countries.
Check out the issues we have in Sweden with 13-17 year olds being used as hired killers in gang warfare on a weekly basis, no one has the slightest idea of how to handle this, we have always focused on sentencing children to max 4 years of care, but this system was not ready for today
Many kids can change and come to the light so to speak. It really depends on the child and the resources available and the healthy relationships they form.
This must be for English speaking audiences *outside* the US. The US no longer worries about concepts like decency, justice or morality. Our main concern is cheap eggs.
it's not simply a matter of considering consequences; youngsters do not have level of experience that leads to awareness of consequences; they cannot consider things they're unaware of.
Not all children are sweet, hyper or of course cannot be antisocial psychopaths/sociopaths just stop denying it isn't possible. Mental illness is a thing for children especially of those from dysfunctional families.
James Bulgers killers carried out extreme torture on that poor child and he would have suffered severely. One of his killers Jon Venables was released in 2001, arrested in 2010 for child abuse images, released in 2013, found to have more child abuse images, 1100 of them, most of which were in the worst category including toddlers being abused, and was re arrested in 2017. He was refused bail in 2023 and in my opinion, should rot in prison as clearly he hasn't been rehabilitated and still poses a serious threat to society. James's other killer Robert has disappeared since his release in 2001. In my opinion he should still be in prison too but unfortunately justice is never served. It's only been 31 years and James's parents still have to live through the agony of losing their gorgeous little boy every day.
This is a massive problem in Aus. There's constant lectures about arresting people aged 14 and under for repeated crime including violent crimes. The response from rights activists etc is, well kids should be able to do whatever they please
kids are a form of life they have free will and yall act surprised when some decide to use it to kill innocent people like theres no way it should be possible well it is some people dosent matter age are just plain evil
Agree. Many adult murderers blame their childhood traumas and things like that for upbringing. So what should stop a child like that from killing without waiting for adulthood
Yeah.. no. You pretend as if chileren pop out of the womb with a fully developed brain, and perfect understanding of social norms. Children are not adults. They are dependent on adults to learn how to engage with their environment. Children also don't have the ability to understand the consequences of choices. And they don't come equipped with the knowledge of "right" and "wrong".
Greetings from Norway and thanks for the shout out, Into the Shadow! Just to add to what you said: in Norway, kids can't be criminally prosecuted until they're 15. If a child 14 or younger say killed someone here, CPS will get involved and monitor them closely, and an investigation into the contributing factors and how dangerous the child still is would take place, (there is for example quite a bit of difference between a child with psychopathic tendencies and an abuse victim lashing out in anger and going too far in desperation), and if necessary, the CPS would place the child into a government-funded CPS-ran institution/foster home if there were triggering factors in the kid's immediate environment leading to the killing, and they would also employ therapy, child psychologists and psychiatric treatment as well.
I'd like to point out that psychopathy is a mental illness and not a criminal offense. There are psychopaths who grow up to be functioning members of society. The thing about crime is that the enabling factor is one's ability to ignore empathy. Psychopaths make such devastating killers because they already don't experience empathy. However, not every psychopath becomes a cold-blooded killer with a taste for blood. Plus, they can learn sympathy for others. These are people, after all.
Children hardly change their phycology. If your annoying as a kid because you are, then you will change. But if your annoying for attention, that will not change. ...So children who are sadistic probably will not change for the better.
We had a case in Serbia where a 13 year old took his fathers gun and killed 9 people in his school, one security guard and rest classmates. By law there isnt anything to be done, the father got 15 years and mom got 3 for random stuff but the child is in purgatory, stuck in psych wards. The people are pissed since the kids showed no remorse but its kinda a nothing can be done about it situation. At 18 hes probably gonna move away and start a new life
A classmate of mine accidentally killed another younger kid in the basement of his home. They had found the firearm belonging to a conservation officer in the woods. In spite of the fact that he tried to move the body and stage the scene of the accident, he was basically given the legal equivalent of a slap on the wrist. A year of probation, some community service, and he got to stay home. I don't think that what happened was malicious (it was incredibly irresponsible and stupid), but tell that to the family that had to endure their child's death and the trial that deemed his life valueless.
Good video Into the Shadows,excellently presented! Thanks for the case examples.A great help in understanding these questions you raise. Looking forward to more!
Jon Venables was arrested and imprisoned as an adult due to possessing child pornography, so yeah...either he couldn't have been rehabilitated or any attempts to do so failed
Aspd always has precursors in childhood. Aspd is often due to varying brain abnormalities or disrupted development. Psychopathy tends to be something thats born with and there are specific neuroanatomical markers that can be even seen as early as infancy or as a toddler. Unfortunately, theres little you can do depending on the brain region in terms of rehabilitation. If its an area thats highly plastic and they dont demonstrate significant deficits and abnormal volumes, it may be possible to rewire the brain and form new adaptive skillsets. But this needs to be done between the ages of 2-6 years for highest efficacy. Post that age, its extremely difficult to build the synaptic connections that could reverse some of the behavioral deficits.
This is such a paradox to me: It seems widely recognized that childhood and upbringing are the time to receive education, learn about right and wrong, and be lead by good example. Yet in case of murder and other crimes it's super important to educate and punish only when grown up. A lawyer once told me that putting murderous minors in prison to scare other children from following their example was bullshit. During a time where humans are developing their understanding of "good things are rewarded, bad things are punished", the worst things of all are without consequenze. And while we all know how impressionable kids are, the system just dismisses that factor in this one regard. It's two different worlds we are living in, and they tell us the complete opposite.
Kids that are 11..12..14 etc are old enough to understand right and wrong. I think everyone is born knowing that there are some things that you should not do. I dont think anyones parents ever give their kids the life lesson of "dont murder people" But there was that case simon covered on one of his other channels (casual criminalist i think) of that 5 year old in india that was a serial killer. I think in some cases they cant be rehabilitated because theyre born with a disconnect in their brain and theyre not guided by that moral compass. They dont feel remorse or guilt. On some level the kid knew he did something wrong because he hid the bodies and when the police questioned him he told them give me some (i forget exactly what it was cookies or something) and ill tell you everything you want to know.
I was a violent child, I would have uncontrollable rage fits and often hurt other kids during them. I look back and wonder why I was like that, and I am grateful that I am now very much the opposite. Kids emotions are enhanced massively compared an adults, so it's important to try and maintain peace and calmness when around them and communicating with them. I witnessed a lot of arguments in the house and I wonder is this the reason for my foul temper as a child.
@@cringeyidiotterry everyone's life, family, surroundings etc are different. I guess I was just taught to stick up for myself from being young and did so, sometimes taking it too far through loss of my temper. I've learned through life experiences, predominantly serving time in the army and traveling a lot, that a peaceful, simple life is the key to happiness, and it's happiness that we all seek. Keep your circle small, only let in those who would do the same for you, while still projecting kindness and peace to all.
@cringeyidiotterry I was raised to stick upto bullies and hit back those who hit me. Though sometimes, my anger would best me and I'd hit first or lose control all together. I was a good kid most of the time and raised by a good family. Traveling a lot and serving in the army, along with other events and encounters in my life, have taught me that peace and a simple life are most valuable to one's happiness. I keep my circle small whereas I used to seek popularity. I remain self disciplined whilst still enjoying my life. I don't dwell on the past nor worry what might be around the corner.
I've been through bullying and abuse. Mainly from other kids in primary school... But also from my own father, especially when I entered high school. When you're too young to have any legal standing, or don't know how to get any... Well, sometimes there's only one option. I had an opportunity to get rid of my father, and I regret not taking it. That should tell you everything you need to know about why some kids end up as murderers.
Society's impossible dilemma is what to do about parenting. Clearly there are people who do it right and clearly there are people who do it wrong. What's the solution? How would you enforce such a solution? And should it be enforced?
In Wisconsin (US) there is a state-run Mendota Juvenile Treatment Center program that works with adolescents with antisocial personality disorder who have committed violent crimes and not responded to standard correction strategies. It is an intensive impatient program in a locked psychiatric facility that has a proven track record for reducing recidivism (program participants were 6 times less likely to commit felony violence than a similar group without treatment) but is expensive because it requires double the staff members and low caseloads for psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers. It isn't perfect, but offers hope that violent juveniles can be rehabilitated.
The problem tends to be when the public gets involved in these cases, if the kids do end up rehabilitating well they can never return to society since random people believe they are the devil now or something
I've met adults with ASPD, one who could be defined as sociopathic (but largely due to being conditioned to be so by a narcissistic parent) and one a definitive psychopath (like cruelty to people and animals, unable to experience normal emotions, especially things like love and joy, extreme possessiveness and controlling behaviours, massively overblown sense of self importance, only ever excited or aroused by causing harm, etc. He was very aware of what he was, not diagnosed mind but proud of it (and proud of all the crimes he got away with - some of which include kidnapping his kids from his first wife multiple times, making her send him money to return them after his contact time, things like that. And one time he punished his second wife by forcing her to sit in the front seat of the car, then putting their 1&3yr olds in the backseat with no car seats n no seatbelts, then deliberately driving fast and recklessly, including zigzags to make the babies fall around the back seat, giving them concussions, then when police pulled him over and saw the kids he proudly said he just talked to the cop for a few minutes, don't know what he said, but the cop then permitted him to carry on so long as he stopped speeding- this is in the UK btw and the story was verified by the missus after she fled him with their kids, she still has nightmares about it, not understanding why the police didn't help them), but not free from delusional thinking - kept trying to convince me he was chosen by god to lead people cos god had made him unburdened by human emotions, didn't like it when I said if you were chosen by god then you'd not get aroused by hurting folk/animals). But non of them scared me more than a five year old I nannied for, years ago now, who showed early signs of ASPD, specifically towards the psychopathic end of the ASPD spectrum. I'll never forget, my fist day with him, when he hurt his younger sibling, tried acting all innocent and I said "that act doesn't fool me" and he then blinked at me, like you could see the cogs turning in his mind, then started crying and fell to the floor kicking. I said "neither does that act." And he stopped crying immediately, sat up, tilted his head as he looked me in the eye, clearly trying to sus me out, and after a few moments said "you're not like most adults are you?" While I worked there I'd try and teach him to behave more appropriately (specifically, most of our conversations were me trying to teach him why he should bother with trying to pick good behaviour, when he gets away with the bad behaviour most of the time, me being his only exception so far, and it's way more fun to just do what he enjoys - and this was 5yr old, talked like a ten yr old when he wasn't acting the sweet innocent lad), but while he stopped the hurting others when I was around, it was only when he was under my supervision, when I wasn't around he was his normal self hurting other animals and kids and acting all innocent or crying if he got caught. Thing was he was already very good at getting away with hurting others, like animals, other kids at school or in the family would suspicious injuries around him that the adults thought were his doing but couldn't prove, so he seldom got caught (the other kids wouldn't admit he wasnhurting them either, not even his tweenage cousin, they were scared of him, at age five). And while alot of the adults would admit they found him creepy and uncomfortable to be around, non of them would commit to admitting that in writing, to get this kid a psychologist assessment. Which I get, as a childcare professional, you're basically trained that nurture trumps nature, which is true most of the time. But there's a sense of "giving up" on a kid if you admit their nature is messed up. I had to leave that job cos he was posing a risk to my children and no matter what research or evidence I presented his mum with, she refused point blank to talk him to a psychologist. I told her when I left that I understand it's hard to accept your kid is a danger to others but you're doing him no favours by staying in denial, and you're not safeguarding your youngest, one day he'll injure his sibling or a school kid enough that socia get involved, best she get him support and try to prevent things getting worse. I also told her that I'm going to inform social myself that I believe this child has the protential to be a real risk to his future classmates and sibling, without the proper therapeutic support, that it's not due to lack of nurture cos there is alot of love in their family, his mum was tying herself in knots trying to juggle everything, she loved both her boys deeply and their needs were all met, she wasn't neglecting or abusing them, but that I wanted my observations of her eldest on record incase when he's older, if he does hurt someone seriously or if mum does decide to seek professional support, then there's evidence of this being recognised in early youth on the social systems records, which will hopefully help speed up the seeking help process up for them, hopefully
Do not say it's not abuse. She neglected her duty to get her kid professional help, potentially doomed him to be a serious offender, a future prison fodder.
Obviously, theres a distinction to be made between kids who kill, and kids who knowingly, make a conscious decision to kill. There are, unfortunately, more than the ideal number of instances where a kid has found a parents gun, or gotten hold of a knife, or otherwise bumbled their way into killing a person by accident. That's a tragedy. But kids who choose to kill are a different issue, and for the sake of public safety, society HAS to be willing to isolate such individuals and by so doing insulate society from the harm they pose. Why? Because kids who choose, apropos of nothing, to just off someone for kicks, are no less aware of the consequences of their actions than adults who do the same thing. Psychopathy is AGELESS.
Even children know that murder is wrong. So unless there's some extenuating circumstances I don't think light sentences are sensible. Accidental deaths obviously not included.
Children don't necessarily understand the finality of murder. You don't let young children drive cars, you don't let children run for office, and you don't let children vote because they make dumb decisions and they do not understand the consequences of their actions.
Your definition of "wrong" changes as you grow up though. Initially, "wrong" just means you will receive some sort of punishment, so it's fear of the consequences that stops you doing it, not any empathy or morals. When I was younger any apology I gave for things was solely to get out of trouble, there was no actual care (in retrospect I think telling kids to say sorry is pointless). As you get older "wrong" changes to the impact on others, eventually it gets nuanced and philosophical, it becomes about what is and isn't best for society.
Children are told that murder is wrong, but they don’t have enough insight or experience to actually have a deep understanding of why. It’s kind of the problem here.
As someone who lives in a country where the justice system priorities rehabilitation and the sentences are very light, I can 100% say that that DOES NOT WORK. No one is happy with this system here, and relapse crimes are very common. How would you feel if your child is hurt by another child who already had a couple of crimes that they were sentenced for? For me, the justice system should prioritize the prevention of future crimes and the safety of the 99%, not rehabilitation of criminals and psychopaths.
What country is that because other countries that focus on rehabilitation have lower rates of re offending? Maybe your country went to far with the rehabilitation bit and needs to add longer sentences as well
Venables and Thompson weren’t sentenced to life in prison but to indefinite detention “at Her Majesty’s pleasure,” which I believe is the only sentencing possible for juveniles who commit murder in the UK. So they were not technically released “early.” The case is interesting because, while Venables re-offended, Thompson appears not to have (at least, we’re not aware of it, perhaps because unlike Venables he was better at not blowing his cover). My own view is that the focus should be on rehabilitation, but the punishment needs to be severe for any re-offense. Certainly in the case of Venables the punishment for his first re-offense was much too light, and when he was released again he then soon re-offended a second time.
Yeah Venables has that fixation on child crimes. He admitted that and I think he has been denied parole a few times because of that risk, which is great. I'm also glad Thompson is able to live life now after serving time and growing up into adulthood. He will carry the guilt for life.
One school shotter in Brazil (6 killed with shots and hummer hits) received just a 3 year sentence. It is the max allowed to minors here, he was 15 at the time. The father, a cop that let the gun unsupervised, received one month of paid leave. He will leave jail in about a year, with no crimes in his file.
In high school in rural SE Indiana in the 80s me and another kid were both targeted by the same bully, and though we commiserated together, we solved our issue in different ways. I stood up to the bully and we tangled, once. After a few punches, he backed off. The other kid decided to bring a handgun to school and unalive the bully. He showed it to someone on the bus, and they told on him. He was sent to a juvenile mental health institution for the rest of the school year. Shortly after being released he attempted to assault and Grape one of his neighbors with a knife. She defended herself and subdued him. I didn't see that kid for 5 years and from what I've heard over years, he has continued to further his relationship with the Indiana Department of Corrections. At one point he was in the same facility for "young offenders" as Mike Tyson.
@@the_rachel_sam Yeah, I get what you're saying. It was 30 years ago and people don't remember, or like you, didn't know, because it's not publicized now. But when it happened it was a big deal.
What scares me more is kids who torture. Those cases where a group of teens gang up on someone and it’s labeled as just “bullying” and there is hardly any legal consequences for the perpetrators will never cease to unreavel my nerves. It’s the fact it’s prolonged, that their is enjoyment out of it, it’s disponible and I truely belive in most cases they will go on to do it again
'Playground bullying' should be recognized as a crime, and the full weight of the law brought to bare.
Bullies might just think twice if they knew they could be locked up in a real prison for a period longer than they have been alive.
@ yes because that will solved that started throwing kids in jail
Consider just not punishing kids for the defending themselves against bullies
And pressure the parents into disciplining their kids
You know something work for centuries
@@LordInquisitor701
It did not start with jailing children.
Children are being jailed because they are irredeamably evil.
@@LordInquisitor701 I was bullied to near suicide. You can't fix people most of the time. They need to get a massive wake up call that actions have consequences.
@@PhantomQueenOne yes a wake up call by getting punched in face preferred get punched by the kid he was bullying then punished by his parents
Not prison or juvenile detention
Because I guarantee you that just going make the kid turn out worse
I was bullied as a kid and learned just how cruel kids can be, some kids are downright terrifying and they don't improve with age.
Who wasn't picked on in one way or another at some point? My parents beat me daily, I'd been shot and stabbed before I was 20, everyone is such a wussy these days,
That may be true. But you don't know whether a child in this position can be rehabilitated or not if you don't try.
Not by themselves they don't. I fully believe some people just grow up, but never actually mature. I'm sorry you had such bad experience 😢
@@josekentucky86 That wasn't the point, honey.
@josekentucky86 ya and the beatings obviously negatively effected your reading comprehension if you think you made a point with your trauma dump.
What is the purpose of the criminal justice system? Preventing future crimes? rehabilitating people? Vengeance? Giving a sense of satisfaction for victims and their families? I don't think we can grapple with the child problem until we decide on our purpose.
Sequester those who have proven they are a danger to the rest of us.
Who/how such determinations are made needs some work...
@@cynamun467 none of those. It's an excuse to extract money from disadvantaged people, which then becomes revenue for the state you were convicted in. Hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue are "collected" like this. Check into it if you don't believe it.
You can get rid of vengeance, I don't know where that came from? And giving some sense of satisfaction for victims is called Justice. So I think you pretty much described it. Don't be so vengeful.
"free" workshop/outdoor labour
protection from the public mob from bringing about true justice.
reserve of "nothing left to lose" human shields incase war ever breaks out.
Keeping wardens and other high up law enforcement staff in employment because every government needs enforcers/judges.
Positive reinforcement of governental optics.. "you need us in power to protect you from these dangerous people" ect ect..
collection of tax money from the public to account for the govs spending habits.
Thats what the justice system is for.
@@glennrugar9248 Do you also believe it's tin foil and not aluminum foil that you wear?
I knew a psychopathic child bully when I was in primary school. He had been suspended multiple times. The last attack on one of his victims at the school-which was where each case took place-he was kicked out of school. And then later arrested. The attacks only took place over the span of less than a year.
The first attack... He kicked a kids teeth in/out of his mouth. We were playing baseball. The victim was catcher at home plate. The victim took off his face guard while still squatting like a catcher. There was a difference of opinion on being out or not when the pitch was caught. Ans did the bully in question swing the bat or not.
Victim two... Me. It was almost attempted murder. But it could have been more. The bully took a huge piece of a broken splintering piece of fence wood to my neck. Holding it to my throat. With both hands. I was sat down on and my hands were pinned behind my back. A really good friend of mine broke his collar bones to get the bully off me. Later that day, within about an hour or so, he was suspended from school.
The last victim... This poor kid was sent to school with 3rd degree sunburn on his shoulders. And the bully had long tough fingernails. The sunburned kid had the soft sun damaged skin... peeled back, exposing the rest of the tissue. There was a lot of bleeding and screaming and crying, of course. Finally the bully was kicked out of school and later arrested and sent to an all boys correction facility.
I still remember you Ronald. You hopefully ended up where you truly belong, permanently. It's been more than 30 years. But it's almost like it all happened yesterday.
Kids are capable of more than adults, especially parents, want to believe.
Some people are just irredeemably evil. And some of those are children.
@justynmatlock8873 All too true, unfortunately.
I remember a boy in my elementary school, a real psycho bully. He used to team up with the big, fat boy who got held back 2 grades to beat up other kids (as in, the big boy held them so they couldn't fight back and the boy would beat them. I even got ropeburn on my neck, because I was once playing under a toy net thingy and they decided to yank it back and forth while it was still over my head, causing the rope to rub against my neck.
What did the mother do? She always defended her only son. He was "an innocent little angel, he would never hurt anyone!"
Well, after elementary school (which ends after grade 4 over here), he went to a different school and continued his antics. I heard that at 15, he got in trouble for forcing 2 11-year old boys to completely undress until naked in the boy's restrooms. Of course, the Mum kept defending him. Later he got in trouble for domestic violence against his girlfriend.
Last thing I heard was he died from a drug overdose at age 22.
This kid was not shaped by abuse, but rather had his sociopathic behaviour enabled by his mother. I don't think any rehabilitation could have helped here, and no amounts of outside punishments deterred him, either.
Honestly? Good riddance. And I don't say that lightly, as someone who is all in support of rehabilitation > punishment. He would have been 31-32 today and I believe a lot of potential victims have been spared his brutality by his untimely death.
As for the other kid? He turned out okay as far as I know. Never became successful or amounted to much, but last I heard was he had a job and was doing okay. He seemed like the kind of kid that hung around with the wrong crowd. But that bully boy? No chance.
@Windmelodie Some it seems by our experiences. And by the many other cases similar and much worse, they're really not all that able to be rehabilitated. Maybe up to a point with them but eventually the opportunity to act on their impulses is too much for them to resist. Some children are sadly a part of the environment that shaped them, either at home or somewhere other that is part of the social deviance, psychologically. Otherwise genetic issues within or some damage inherent in the brain. And some a slow growing tumor in the brain alters the brain chemistry.
I guess it makes sense that at the two biggest stages in life: first at the beginning of the developmental years. And then again in the later stages of life when old and becoming much older. The brain of the senior starts to deteriorate: sometimes gradually, and sometimes at an alarming rate.
Little children at both stages: one maturing-if they ever do. And the other returns to a child-like state in all or nearly all their faculties.
They are becoming made, and later, being made undone.
At least we survived better than our predators and bullies. We lived a less chaotic life, with luck and help from others that are sympathetic and have the ability to be empathetic. ❤️
@@Windmelodie Th boy you describe as 'fat' may have joined his gang to avoid being bullied himself.
I think one has to concede that does happen.
People need to realize children are not innocent, instead they are ignorant. Children by nature are self centered and animalistic, it's the job of adults to shape empathy and selflessness. When you get mental health issues on top you have an even larger burden.
A psychopath is essentially a child that never grew up.
Selflessness is not a healthy trait. It will be endlessly and mercilessly exploited by everyone else whenever and however they see fit. Merely teach them to not needlessly mistreat others.
@JMOlsen_ selflessness is a healthy trait to have if you teach your child to have good morals and good judgement so they don't get played
@Damuworld No. RHP morality teaches people how to be a convenient doormat to be used and discarded at will. It has no value whatsoever. Life is shades of grey. Teaching your child to be a dupe, a victim, a tool and a virtue-signaller is one of the worst things that you can do to them.
Idk in some ways they are innocent. Most of them haven't done half the shit I have. There's an innocence there
I knew a kid like that. I knew him from the day he was born. His mother abandoned him when he was an infant. Even as a toddler, he enjoyed breaking the belongings of people of all ages. He derived joy from upsetting other people.
Soon after, he started enjoying physical violence. When another child became fearful of him, it was like he was intoxicated with joy, like that was the greatest feeling to him. He was about 4 or 5 years old at the time. He had no hesitation about doing whatever he felt like. If he was curious what it felt like to do something, he did it.
His therapist suggested his father get him a pet to help him learn empathy. I found out years later that he had killed every pet he was given. When he was six, I caught him in my backyard, killing baby kittens a feral cat had given birth to. Except for the cries of the kittens, he looked just like a kid having fun tossing balls around. I will never forget the big grin on his face. He was having the time of his life. I told him to leave and not come back. I became very wary of him after that. I didn't want him anywhere near my home.
When he started school, he became an extreme bully. He wanted all of the other children to be afraid of him. CPS was called because of his extreme violence. He was removed from his home and put into foster care. He went into several foster homes but was always sent back because of violence against pets and other children. He attacked one of his foster parents and sent her to the emergency room as well as causing physical damage to her home. He also attacked one of his state appointed therapists about that time. CPS gave up on him and sent him back to his father.
He ran away several times but was always returned by the authorities until he turned 18. Then he just never came back. I don't know where he is now, but I hope I never see him again. He's the only child I was ever afraid of.
People like that tend to get sorted out by society, as we do not put up with juvenile and cruel bullsh*t nearly as much as we do when you're a kid (unless you're a politician, then it's part of the job)
@@katyungodlywhat would society do if they don’t put up with something
@@katyungodly How much damage do they do before they are "sorted?"
Sounds like a real monster! And that's the thing, kids in general may not be born with empathy and have to be thought, but they're definitely not all alike and nurture isn't always the cause of these types of behavior. Some people are just born with a set of character traits that make them more prone to turning out not very good human beings. That kid seems to have been one of those cases, I doubt he could ever be redeemed.
His therapist is a total idiot for suggesting giving him a pet. That's literally the worst idea imaginable and very obviously so...
I really appreciate the nuance of this issue, and I like that Simon did not try to answer the question himself. I worked in juvenile probation, and if I get a vote, I would like to advocate for an emphasis on rehabilitation with more severe sentences being applied on a case by case basis depending on recidivism. That way we can remove children from abusive situations and get them the help they might need, while avoiding "blanket policies" that could have unintended consequences. For example, Sweden does indeed impose very light sentences on juvenile offenders and focuses on rehabilitation, but that leaves the possibility of adults exploiting those policies by using children to commit crimes; knowing that their recruits will suffer less, which allows those adults to recruit more kids. And that's exactly what Swedish cocaine dealers have done; forming juveniles into gangs of child soldiers, essentially.
Great video!
At least where I live the issue is with repeat offenders. My town of 200'000 has a revolving door of at least 1200 juveniles (Don't know the exact number as the local government is fairly tight-lipped on the matter) who regularly steal anything that isn't nailed door. Occasionally there is a killing when an armed robbery/carjacking goes wrong. I know that does sound like a lot of people but it is surprising the amount of chaos such a small group can cause. It has caused tensions to rise in more than a few neighbourhoods. The reoffending rate is above 90%: one of the few hard stats I could find.
So my question to you is in situations like this is rehabilitation the best option? Cause I don't think locking them up for a long time is the answer either. A good chunk of these kids come from Aboriginal families (Native Australians) which are most of the time are chaotic situations at best. Jail is better than their home lives. Jail is a vacation for those kids. The system needs reform but I don't know what exactly. I'm not sure how well removing these kids from their families would go either as very few in the foster system would even want to take care of these kids.
What's your view on ab*rtion?
Only if your rdy to sign with your life on the line if your right nothing happens but when the day comes that your wrong you will suffer the same consequences be it life in prison (more like death by time but anyway) or the death penalty you also have no rights to defend yourself or the person you signed for as it would be at that point it look like trying to get out of your contract exceptional crimes require exceptional evidence why shouldn't it be any different with the consequences
@ because it's not clear whether or not children are fully aware of the consequences of their actions. In fact, there's pretty good evidence to conclude that they have neither the full ability to rationalize or understand what exactly it is they are doing. You can make the argument that a 17-year-old has a better understanding, but even then it is clear they have less impulse control than a fully developed adult. Hell, even 18 years old is probably too young to be considered a "fully developed adult". Really it should be decided on a case by case basis, but bureaucracies don't do so well with nuance… And we need complex bureaucracies to maintain the societies we have built. So… Yeah...
Exactly, where you push children outside of the system they will be liable to remain there. During these formative experiences it's important to measure discipline against rehabilitation very carefully, on a case-by-case basis and with a focus on education.
As a victim of bullying I can say, children are cruel and should have consequences for their actions
as both a victim of bullying and former bully, yes. children CAN be cruel. it's not a matter of "how" because children know no limits until they face consequences.
i was nine and my friend and i had bullied a 10-year-old senior (i view her as a senior and always) just because we thought that it was "too childish" for a nine-year-old to openly like the disney movie Frozen, let alone a 10-year-old. we'd call her names and even called her elsa, which she somehow was quite content about that until it had gotten overused. it took her passing on a message from her mum to me and my friend that if we didnt stop bullying her we'd face repercussions in order to end it. the victim and i ended up being friends after about a year and she and i have never brought up about that time again. i took it as a sign of her forgiving me and and my friend, but i cant say for sure. i can still feel the embarrassment, guilt and shame whenever i think about it or briefly discuss it with my friend that had not only supported me, but also TOOK PART in bullying my senior just for being passionate about something she likes.
then i had two classmates who would annoy me relentlessly by either adjusting their seats and tables (one sat in front of me while the other sat behind me) and mocking me for no reason. the one that sat in front of me was the worst one of all, since the one at the back was just joining in for fun. he knew i wasnt one to snitch on others and he would say that i wasnt able to do anything about it even when i told him nicely not to annoy or mock me, going as far as saying that since i was a prefect (at the time), that meant i had to be "nice", i couldnt raise my voice, and that i somehow wasnt able to snitch on them, even though prefects are notoriously known as stuck-up goody-two-shoes who will tell tales on any one who breaks a rule. he took me being speechless at his stupidity as him being right. i hadnt felt so helpless in my life, since i apparently wasnt allowed to fight back in any way and was very passive until i started shouting at him. he wasnt facing any problems at home, had strict parents and was even (privately) punished by my teacher and had to switch our seats. despite after a year of this case being sloppily handled, he told me that if he ever had the chance to bully me again, he would. i had regrets ever forgiving him the moment i heard him let those words come out of his mouth.
i know not everyone is as forgiving as her (my senior) and not every child is as soft as me & my friend, and that some people may be like my bully. kids can continue doing horrible acts of cruelty until they face the music for their actions. but even then some of them will either be nonchalant about it, or that they will straight up commit those acts of cruelty again purely for fun and/or to spite the world for daring to stop them from doing what they want to do.
and thats a problem that we have not just in kids but in society as well. it's not just the justice system that has issues. it's the MINDSET. they either think that their actions are wrong or that they already know the world wont be very forgiving (understandable) so they find it pointless to better themselves. and we, as a society, arent any better when we hold grudges for life.
@selearbol True. I know this might not go over well since many think spanking leads to violent behavior in children but there are many kids that you can do any kind of “alternative” punishment you can think of and it won’t mean diddly squat to them BUT give them a spanking and it gets through. Some kids you have to punish harshly because nothing else will get them to understand. Some kids you have to send to jail because nothing else will get through to them. To them rehabilitation means you don’t think what they did was that big a deal.
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain You can't generalize when it comes to Kids. First of all: what is a kid? 8 years old? 12 years old? Both are in most cases VERY different stages in life. In general you can say that an 8 year old kid has a higher chance of rehabilitation than a 12 year old. But not always. Kids are a product of their enviroment. An 8 year old can already be broken beyond repair, true, but there are 12 year old that can still be rehabilitated as well. What certainly needs to happen is a change of enviroment and psychologic therapy. prison always NEEDS to be the absolutely last resort. Prison messes people up even more. a life sentence is what? 20 years in most states? imagine a 30 year old getting out of prison after 20 years in there. Thats how you create monsters.
In my opinion its the parents that should be held liable if a kid younger than 12 becomes a criminal. If a kid is messed up it's in 99% of cases the parents fault. Kids mimic their enviroment. And the government has to make sure that children of abusive or neglectful parents get relocated as fast as possible.
Only if a psychologic evaluation proves that a kid shows clear signs of psychopathy the kid should be detained. If it's an irreversible illness the kid will be a danger for itself and others for sure in one way or another. Even anti-social personality disorder is treatable. psychopathy is not.
I have to say man, no matter how many channels you have, you always make an entertaining and compelling video.
It’s not exactly hard when you have a team of people to write all your material and you just have to sit and narrate
@Paul_Davies always putting people down, huh? You clearly watched the video, and yet you don't appreciate the time and effort put into it. I should have said the entire team always makes an entertaining and compelling video, but I said only he did, so yea, i guess I could have been more specific, but you should also be more appreciative. This dude has a ton of channels, and it takes up a ton of his time. Not to mention, he is married with kids.
@@thomasfleming7606 always putting people down, where you get that from ? And yes I do appreciate Simon’s content as I’m subscribed to a few of his channels but as you noted you could have been more specific, I was only making an observation
@@Paul_Davieswell Simon makes the team, he chooses people who work for him. He doesn't just read stuff as he likes to say.
@@thomasfleming7606when you have a team of specialists it makes things a lot easier and faster
I was a victim of an incident that could have led to either a brain injury or my death if it had been slightly different. The perpetrators were 12 and they never faced any consequences. The adults in my life didn't even recognise that there was any potential for harm, physically or psychologically. I honestly do believe in rehabilitation and restorative justice, but it's hard to reconcile this with the emotional reality of trauma. Yeah, my attackers get a chance to become a better person or whatever, but I get to have nightmares for the rest of my life?
Part of restorative justice is making sure the victim has access to whatever services they need to heal. It simply acknowledges that throwing people in cages doesnt really solve the issue in the end, and often makes things worse long term. Nobody should be left to suffer in these equations, and if anybody has told you that victims health is to be thought of less im very sorry. All life is equal in the care and respect it deserves.
@@ItsAllNunya That and it also means the criminals coming to terms with what they have done and realising the impact it has had on the victim.
Without going into details, I will say that, in my teenage years, I very nearly became someone who did some awful things to my peers. Between the literal lifelong abuse at home and in school and multiple undiagnosed issues, I was so severely depressed and full of so much hopelessness and rage toward everyone, including myself, that just a little bit more of a push could have definitely sent me over the edge. I know that’s not always the case for kids who do things like this, but I’m sure some out there were like I was.
I can echo that!
Did I hear any remorse? No.
@@chrisspulis1599 that’s because my comment wasn’t to you or regarding my feelings in hindsight. The comment was about the matter at hand, which was how do children commit violent acts. I don’t need to explain to you my full range of emotions of processing my childhood for the past 20 years.
@@TheSapphireSprit kids don’t just fall out of coconut trees 🤷♀️ Some surely were born “evil,” but I think it’s much more common that a complex, devastating system of genetic and environmental factors drive kids to violence.
@@chrisspulis1599they didn’t say they did anything either, and in a shell that was me as well. I didn’t do anything unbecoming. Joined the military during war, got out grew up have a family, house. I did things people wouldn’t agree with these days but most sane people most would. I don’t care
One of my bullies was technically supposed to be in a special class because of his dangerous and psychopathic behavior (he was diagnosed with a plethora of things that made him dangerous) but his parents refused and said he was to be treated as a normal child so the school had to keep him. He was a frkn terror. His eyes were just blank and he enjoyed seeing people hurt and inflicting both physical and mental pain. He was also the popular kid because he was charming and manipulative and everyone knew that you were either his friend/runner or his victim. I know about the mental health parts because my teacher told my mom this. Teacher didn't mention any names or identifying factors of the kid, but it wasn't hard to figure out who it was.
He was terrifying. I hope I never run into him again.
Kids like that are just copying what their parents do to them. Don't trust what their parents say, what someone claims and the reality of things are two very different things sometimes.
Mental health doesnt make somebody dangerous. Choices do.
as a teacher I can say this, "some kids are awful"
Don't know how you do it. I take my hat off to you and other teachers
So does that mean we should lock up children for decades? Where does that stop? A 17-year-old murderer, maybe that's OK. But an 11-year-old? A six-year-old?
Definitely. And the fact that you're forbidden from putting them in their place as if they were adults serves no justice.
As a former child, I can say most teachers are equally evil.
As I kid I can say this, some teachers are awful
People forget that kids are people too, and aren't the pure little unicorns that society makes them out to be. I'm 34 and I still have clear memories from when I was only 3 years old so at 3 years old I was a fully sentient, discerning, intelligent being. I am grateful to have lived in a peaceful, relatively safe town where violence like in the video really did not happen.
People need to stop treating kids like dumb pets and start treating them like fellow people.
This right here.
Yes to this.
I remember being a child and feeling outraged when I learned that minors are 100% unaccountable in Brazil. I knew very well that my actions affected other people, so why were all those monsters getting alway with literal murder???????
Smartest thing I've seen someone say all month!
It seems entirely *un*empathetic when people treat them like unicorns. It disgusts me. I'm so tired of people causing harm for "good" reasons not being seen as harm at all. It's entirely justified for an 8 year old to do literally anything and be morally upstanding. How are we expecting them to transition to suddenly being morally scrutinized for every tiniest error once they turn 20? it's disgusting.
Children also don't like it when they aren't treated as people. This becomes obvious when you compare how children react to adults who treat them as people compared to those who don't. Naturally, they react positively to being taken seriously, with the exception of some older children who aren't used to this in the slightest who might be a bit confused at first.
I'm lucky enough to have grown up in an environment where I was treated like a person rather than some sentient property. This in turn made us take ourselves and our actions a lot more seriously which I think was a good thing. Another consequence of this upbringing was that adults who didn't see us as real people usually had a hard time dealing with us.
Simon here is going to allow me to go on my soapbox about children and the way we as a society tend to treat them - like property and not persons.
The 'problem' with children who kill is pretty much the same problem we have with adults who kill. Some people do so with motives incomprehensible to others; some people meticulously plan out their heinous deed. Some people can be rehabilitated; some people cannot. Every human mind is different in this regard.
It's almost as if children are actual living breathing human beings like the rest of us, and not blank slate inanimate creatures that can be molded into what we adults want out of them. Childhood "innocence" is largely a myth.
The idea of childhood 'innocence' is laughable - children are TERRIFYING. They are capable of every bit of evil an adult is and, even worse than that, they'll do it without properly understanding just how evil they're being. The 'innocence' of children has never been that they don't do awful things, it's that they can do them without even understanding why or having a motive beyond being bored.
It’s more ignorance than innocence. The only reason it’s called innocence is because they haven’t had the time to learn and understand it yet
best comment on here. It's not a question of age, there's mature adults and stupid adults as there are mature children and innocent children, each case should be reviewed on its own.
@@aecides3203 I will add on - children can absolutely properly understand the evil they are committing. They can plan their crimes out meticulously and sadistically. though, you're right, MOST children that do awful things do not have an understanding of the consequences, and the fact that they can commit violent acts purely impulsively is terrifying. the difference between a child and an adult, of course, is that a child is still developing. they're easier to "course correct", in a way. and it is truly my opinion that for a child to be outwardly sadistic, there is a degree of child neglect or abuse going on. even if the child is predisposed to being cruel and unempathetic, for the child to not get help and to continue said behaviour means that they are not being raised properly in some way.
no child is born evil, but every child is born a human, just like any one of us. and humans are fucking scary.
The unfortunate reality of the situation is this
Some kids are naturally bad, some are nurtured into being bad, and some are orchestrated or cornered into doing bad
From there rehabilitation and providing help where needed are the best options but unfortunately there are some who can not be rehabilitated, thus need to be kept behind bars for everyone else’s safety
I hate the Catholic church for creating so many young monsters
The issue is that children generally are not "naturally bad", because they depend on the adults in their lives to teach them how to properly interact with their environment.
Even if children have certain tendencies, it is on the guardians in their lives to teach them how to deal with their impulses and emotions.
To pick up on and to acknowledges these things is the adult's responsibility. If that doesn't happen it is a failure on the part of the parents/guardians of children.
Doesn't mean it is something that is done consciously, but there is a reason why adults are responsible for their (adopted) offspring.
@@mejuliie It has been proven at this point that some children are born as you would say “naturally bad”. As you noted though, good parenting can put a psychopath on the path to brain surgeon, instead of serial killer. Part of the problem is that we aren’t allowed to label anyone under 18 as a psychopath and get them the intervention they need. The other problem is that most parents aren’t equipped to parent a psychopath into a productive member of society. So prison it is.
@@giabarrone7422 i'm a Sadist. My parents weren't great, they didn't even know I was one. But they weren't bad. That is literally all it took for me to not be a terrible person. Sure, I'm not the best person, but all it took was okay-ish parents. Kids are born "naturally bad", but it is so easy to nudge them in the right direction... It is ALWAYS someone elses fault if a kid ends up violent. Sure, you can blame the kid too, but someone else needs to be blamed as well.
That's and if you're a path path but have an iq less then 100 you are far less likely to have impulse control - meaning you' can't be rehabilitated sadly due to that lack of impulse control @@giabarrone7422
Not holding children accountable at all can also be a very serious issue for society. In Sweden children under 15 can't be prosecuted, which has led to criminal organizations & gangs to begin recruiting teenagers to commit their killings and bombings, in exchange for money, sex or drugs - or even a membership in a gang. Especially children in group homes are targeted as recruits, because they are most vulnerable to be influenced with promises of belonging and luxuries.
Some massive reform is needed. This is an issue that will not be solved with simply lowering the age limit, nor will it solve itself by continuing as is. It's a failure in multiple levels of society, and simple solutions aren't the answer. Poverty & substance abuse of parents is the biggest driving factor of kids ending up in the system where they are preyed upon. Children ending up in group homes when at-home support has been cut, children not receiving enough support in group home environment because of lack of funding, children feeling abandoned and left out when they can't enjoy the same things their peers take for granted...
I learned how cruel children could be far too early. From day one of school when I was six years old to the start of grade 8 (13 years old, I'm not american our system is different) I was bulied. It went through six years of constant bullying. Four years of physcological torture, where I was isolated to the point that what I looked forward to the most each day was walking around a tree, alone, on recess. Then two years of physical bullying. I lost my childhood to that bullying. I was depressed from the age of 8 to 14. I am luckily in a better place now and it started with getting to change school but I never got to really be a child. Those years messed me up and I still have a lot of issues from it. Don't get me started on the trustissues I developed. 1.5 years after changing school I got diagnosed with autism (asd) which explained why I was most likely bullied. Some chcildren are just downright awful.
I relate to your comment a lot. In 5-6 grade I was bullied a lot and too spent most days walking around a tree. I learned to be quiet and to fade into the background. I am now 13 and still struggle with expressing myself emotionally and developing much of a personality. A child's innocence is just ignorance with a cute face.
In Norway we have forvaring, don´t know the adequate word in english. but it means that the person after his/hers 21 years sentence can be hold behind bars indefinite if they still are deemed dangerous to the society-
That's basically life with a chance of parole (if they're deemed safe to reenter society.)
@@voshadxgathicno, it's a bit of a different beast (we have the same thing here in Germany). The point is not punishment and the offender is officially released from prison once their sentence is up or they receive parole. However, on their release, they are immediately committed to a forensic psychiatry unit without further judicial review. At that point, they are essentially treated the same as someone found not guilty by reason of insanity would be. This is most commonly used for psychopaths who know full well their actions are wrong but don't care.
I’ve always wondered whether that’ll happen to Anders Breivik because it seems to me insane to let him out after 21 years.
@@Sam-ij7co We got the new law after the Utøya incident, to ensure that people like ABB never gets out, even after 21 years.
@@abnurtharn2927 thank God for that!
You should dive into the details of the recent case you mention from Michigan. There are things that came to light in the trial that make holding his parents responsible perfectly understandable.
I agree. Like the fact that his parents BOUGHT him the gun he used to carry out the crime…
@Royce16727 Or the fact that they refused to let him get counciling, even after HE asked the school for such help.
@ precisely…
I was thinking the same. There was so much more to the Oxford story than a "non-secure" weapon. These parents absolutely deserved to be charged.
I agree that while lawyers say this case was groundbreaking to hold the parents responsible for a child's actions, they should have been charged with medical neglect long before as the child had needed mental health care and not received it and they knew that he was a threat to others or himself - that is when you take ANYONE to the hospital or call 911.
If another adult you knew was clear they would harm others and you provided a weapon I would hope you would get charged with everything the state could charge you with! These were parents and had a responsibility to care for their child and his health and to also keep him from harming other people. I am in the field where I am regularly with kids and parents who have mental health issues where the child has thoughts/plans to harm self or others and they are normally hospitalized and I have had a parent refuse to put their knives in a lock box to stop their kid from self harm/exiting and it's a call to CPS when a child is not being cared for and the parent is endangering the child's health. If the issue is something that will be fast acting and can't wait then it's a call to PD and the on call CPS worker. It's still a call to PD!!!
The Michigan one is disgusting and some people are not meant to be parents.
Yes, your environment plays a role, but millions upon millions of people who experience abuse wake up every day and choose not to be horrible.
there are two members of my family i can think of that basically describe their upbringing under my grandmother in very similar ways, incredibly abusive. One of them turned into a saint who is nothing but love and care as a way to compensate for how bad she felt as a kid. The other fully fell into hatred and racism and lives her life alone and secluded.
Some people make it, others break.
Yes cos they had support
That all depends on external support or the lack thereof.
I you look into th story if Mary, her abuse is hollywood tragedy levels of pain. Its not a common qbuse case at all, or at least in terms of "regulat" abuse.
Her mother tried to "accidentally" kill her several times, and was a sex worker who would receive money to let people rape her daughter. Mary teuly deserved help, and her never re-offending imo is proof that she was let down by tjose who should have helped her before it was too late
@ChaosCardIC1000 no, many of us had zero support. Stop using excuses to justify child criminals.
To me, it boils down to protecting the public and keeping them safe. If that includes rehabilitation, locking them up forever, a chance at parole, etc I don't care, as long as the public is being kept safe.
I feel it's worth mentioning that since Jon Venables was released, he has drunkenly revealed his identity multiple times, and been caught with cp, and still gets identity protection from the government. I feel like it's pretty obvious he wasn't rehabilitated into an upstanding citizen, and I believe he no longer deserves his false identity.
There’s a point in which we need to consider the safety and wellbeing of others rather than the freedom of someone is likely to cause harm. The motive for abuse and murder means nothing to the person who suffers at their hands.
Well, yes, of course the suffering of the victim and their family must be taken into account. Also public safety. But I see a huge difference between sending a 12 year old into adult prison or into a closed psychiatric facility. In both cases the kid is under lock and key, but in the latter case they actually get the help they need, and they get the chance to be productive in some way instead of being locked away with adult criminals where they only learn more about how to be a criminal.
@@semadt It assumes that they can be helped. Most mental illnesses such as, psychopathy, narcissism, borderline, paranoid and others similar cannot be cured. Which means that there are many individuals that you simply cannot help, cure, rehabilitate.
@@niklasmolen4753they can be managed. A cure isn't needed, the people suffering just need the tools to manage their problems
@semadt have you experiences psychiatric lock-up? From what I gather from thise who have, it is anything but helpful
@@Mary-cw4lf No, I don't. I know bits and pieces, and then only about the ones in my country, not the US. Still, locking those kids up with other criminals in a justice system that is not geared towards rehabilition can't be the solution. These people need a perspective of some kind, even if it is one of staying behind bars until the end. But criminals without a perspective, without any hope are even more dangerous. Add to that a lack of education, and they will fall victim to any number of other inmates, especially if those are adult, unrepentant criminals themselves. If the length of their sentence demands they need to be placed with these people eventually, giving them some sort of foundation to find some minor contentment, some goal beyond breathing free air again could give them the tools to not fall victim without meaning to. Also, you can't tell me kids who are murdering at ten, twelve years of age aren't psychiatrically compromised in some way. Someone needs to figure out what's up with these kids, and whether they can be helped or if anything particular needs to be done to ensure their safety and that of their surroundings. Do they need medication to control some kind of disorder? Are they neurodivergent in some way, and does that influence how they view the world and how the world perceives them? If they do have serious problems that mean society needs to be protected from them for the remainder of their lives, have someone document it so a decade, two, three decades later this is a known factor. If they can get help to be a functioning member of society again, let them get that help so that when they get out of prison after their sentence, if and whenever that may be, they have a chance. Don't forget, the young age of these kids mean they have sixty, seventy years or more of life still to live. Whatever solution you discuss to resolve the punishment vs. help issue needs to take this into account.
My kids are in the middle of a nasty and mentally abusive parental conflict.
My son has shown signs of being unstable since he was in kindergarten. With dad and his sick behaviors it’s now escalating.
We have been investigated by home land security. He is a potential school shooter or on that level.
During this custody battle I have tried to explain to the courts, police and cps that dad is also similar and sick in the mind. No one believes me and think I am retaliating in custody.
I am worried for my children. I am worried for those who have to care for my kids in school.
My son has made people quit with the threats he makes.
To the dad nothing is wrong and this is normal. Because dad has had similar thoughts as a child and teen.
I deeply regret not being in a healthy family and choosing a bad father. I was not able to flee the state and try harder to break this cycle.
Gosh, how many school shootings do we need to convince us that children are not all good and pure!?
Those who are bullied in school know first hand that children are capable of evil. The only question is: are they smart enough to avoid getting caught?
My family is dealing with this right now--my nephew (who had been abused by both his parents) tried to kill his stepfather (who had recently married my sister) last year, and we're all trying to come to terms with it and trying to figure out if there's even anything that we can do to help him.
Self-defence is different to these ones where they murdered a peer or younger person for no good reason. Hopefully your nefew just needs some therapy and prayer and isn't likely to harm without cause 😉 🙏🏼
Children are people. Little people, sure, but still people. And some people can be very evil.
From what I've learnt from Casual Criminalist - Don't fuck up your kids
Nature trumps nurture almost every single time. Yes, it is true a sociopath can be made. But, a psychopath is born.
The story of Sharon Carr in England (she killed an 18-year-old she didn't even know when she was 12) is so incredibly chilling. She is now in her mid-20s and is still in custody, but the thought that she may one day get out is terrifying.
Sharon carr is 45 years old right now. she was convicted in 1997!
An adult would be out now and you’d think nothing of it. Why is it important the punishment be longer for children?
The Jordan Brown case was insane. Based on the media coverage at the time, I thought for sure he was guilty and being tried as an adult was what he deserved, but now it seems probable the murder was committed by someone else. I'd always hoped Simon and his wonderful writers would take a stab at the case so I could actually understand what happened and how things went so wrong with the investigation and court case.
I like that Simon gives these topics the weight and seriousness that they deserve. My personal over-simplified opinion on this is that every child deserves at least one chance to be rehabilitated. I like to believe that this opinion would not change even if one of my loved ones was killed by a child but I don't know. It's easy to preach about morals when you've never been in a situation that confronts them
Not sure if you're going to bring her up but Victoria Dalton of San Antonio Texas was my sister's best friend and I saw her everyday for years. She murdered her two younger siblings, smothered them. They were babies. The situation was horrible at her home. Her mother was addicted to drugs and left her there alone for days with those babies. I didn't know about it and I don't know why my mom didn't call the police, probably because my mom sucks too. But anyway, she was the youngest person to be tried as an adult at that point in the state of Texas. She was 14 when they tried her.
I just read the case law for her appeal and jeez what a terrible home life and bizarre case. I hope you and your sister are doing well.
In Japan, a young boy hooked into 2chan bought a knife, hijacked a bus, and made two old women bleed to death. Yet the Japanese courts used the juvenile laws to lower his sentence.
Same goes for Seito Sakakibara - serial killer who killed three children, hanged a head into a school gate, and played tricks against cops. The verdict? The same. What's worse is that Seito became an author and detailed his gruesome murders.
Juvenile crime can be really dangerous.
I have more intimate knowledge in this area and I wanted to add some facts about kids who are known risks to others - There is NOT support, placements, facilities, etc. in the US for kids whom mental health professionals KNOW and have DIAGNOSED with issues around hurting others and finding help for this is extremely hard!!! Many adolescent and pediatric facilities accept kids with depression, anxiety, ADHD, ptsd, etc., but kids who knowingly harm other kids and adults makes it incredibly hard to find placement. A case that comes to mind is where a pediatric client under the age of 12 was released from a mental health facility and the parents did everything they were supposed to - locked up all sharps, no guns, no knives, no lighters, etc - and the child broke into the neighbors home to find "sharps". Our mental health system struggles to help these kids BEFORE a crime is committed.
The issue of life vs rehabilitation is hard to answer due to the question of each situation being a nuanced situation. Some kids act this way due to more nature vs nurture and rehab will not fix what this person's brain was born to do. Other cases are very nurture based and the child is in an environment where abuse has occured, they have witnessed violence and acts of violence, and if the child had grown up in a healthy home things would have likely been incredibly different. I think far more emphasis should be put into rehabilitation for these cases, but it is costly, we don't have enough mental health professionals to do this, and we don't have enough trained in this area to do this. Then we need to figure out which is the nature vs nurture cases and this is not always so simple. A psych eval can only do so much.
The law is also incredibly black and white where sentences are laid out for crimes and specific numbers are used such as age 18 to be a legal adult. Some kids I work with are chronologically 16 yrs old and emotionally about 6 yrs old because that is when the abuse started and they stagnated on their development emotionally. I think you can see how you may expect a 16 yr old to understand something better, but the reality is that this 16 yr old is emotionally about 6 yrs old and fragile as a 6 yr old and doesn't understand so going by a black and white age can put kids into having consequences for something that they don't fully grasp. This is the issue I have run into with the law in juvenile courts. The law is black and white and unforgiving about the circumstances of the child as we base everything on chronological age with black and white thinking when things are significantly more GREY in this area and Simon could make a much longer video about this.
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Think of your friends in middle and high school. Some of you caught on to concepts, social cues, emotional development, dating, responsibility, etc. much faster than your friends. This was likely in fairly healthy homes and kids develop at different rates so why does he law hold everyone to the exact same standard that is so cut and dry in black and white? What did you do as a kid that was a major mistake and wrecked your parents/neighbors/uncles car/living room/important item, but you are not spending the rest of your life paying for it?! Did you ever squeeze the hamster too hard because you didn't know better? Did that make you a bad person?
To put in a bit of perspective, i WAS raised correctly in regard to socio emotional stuff, and despite my best efforts to do the right thing, whatever part of my brain needed to start developing inorder to fully understand that stuff did not start kicking in until recently at like 23, So theres a neurological development bit in there on the inverse side of the social one you mentioned aswell. Despite having all the required ques and reinforcers i just couldent "get it", and frankly my behavior before the fact was embarrassing at best, totally unhinged at worst.
heck i dont even know if i would get it now if the impulsive side of me that was running the show at the time had not gone and obtained stimulant medications and utilized them at a more than recommended amount, something flipped on like a light switch and has stayed on since where it now feels i have enough perception and control of myself to understand the world around me. Interestingly enough also shut off the compulsion to do that type of thing.
Before even with the right information and very much wanting and trying to do the right thing and be considerate because thats who i feel i am and want to be as a person, there was just a missing piece i dident have that prevented good judgement despite the best of intent, and apparently my dad dident really "get it" until his early to mid 30s, so there is definitely like you said both a nature and nurture aspect, as clearly something that runs in my familly slows that part of development down substantially while the rest zooms ahead.
Should i have kids though im getting them those medications as soon as possible, id imagine at a more moderate level early on and carried on that development could happen more naturally without the confused development followed by abrupt clarity
@@therideneverends1697 It's a complicated question to answer as you and your partner would need to have a conversation knowing there is a possibility that the child COULD have this genetic factor and there MAY be this challenge or they could be angelic and such an easy kid to raise.
You make a good point about the fact your brain did not "kick in" or you didn't find the help and answers until age 23 and your father until his 30's while other people developed differently around you. Neuropsychology is still a developing field where we are learning more and more about how the brain works, thinks, impulses, decision making, etc. and it's not all figured out yet. We likely know more now than when you were a teen and struggling however.
As far as the legal aspects a very good doctorate of behavioral psychology once told me that the law is about 25 years behind any and all mental health info there is available and that is a very kind guess as I have seen some courts/judges (usually older white male judges) be of the opinion that PTSD is ONLY a war related issue and does not happen outside of people who have actively served in the armed forces. Our laws and our judges need to stick to their roles and allow the medical professionals who need to be current on new medical information to do their job and inform the courts as professionals.
"What is done to children, they will do to society." -Karl Menninger, MD.
#EnoughSaid
To be fair, the Oxford shooter's parents (do not say his name, do not show his picture, take away his fame) bought him a high powered rifle KNOWING he had violent fantasies about harming his classmates.
Yowza, that’s next level bad parenting
Bruh, seems like the parents just wanted something to happen. Holy moly.
The same happened with the "I don't like Monday's" girl.
Children aren’t little piles of kindness. If they are not taught to be nice, then they will be cruel most times. Bullying is a huge thing. The extremes of it (sometimes it isn’t even on the extreme side) is basically torture.
If the crime is just flat out murder or rape or another similar violent offense that ends or ruins someones life forever then there needs to be consequences. If a kid is 13+ my opinion is they need to face the crime they committed, with their age as a mitigating circumstance on sentencing. I simply do not buy the argument that the average 13 year old does not understand the consequences of a serious crime. Obviously all the usual mitigating circumstances need apply for mental illness, delayed development etc.
Any younger than that and I feel they need to be housed in a secure facility and given therapy, treatment and rehabilitation until they can be proven to not be a danger to society. While I think 11 and 12 year olds might often fit the above too, any law does need a cut off and I think 12/13 is reasonably where you should expect the average kid to know between right and wrong in their society.
I think knowing your culture right vs wrong, and understanding the consequences of your actions are two VERY different things when we look at children’s understanding of consequences/time etc.
I also think it’s more complicated then this. A 13 year old, with a normal IQ and a normal background may know right from wrong. A 13 year old, with a lower IQ/borderline disability, being brought up to only know suffering/abuse/violence, being taught by their parents that the only way to meet your needs is to be violent, may not be responsible for their actions.
@@Bringon-dw8dx I agree with everything you said about nuance, which is why I did mention further mitigating circumstances on sentencing. Upbringing circumstances, abusive surroundings, development are all things that definitely must be factored in, along with a hundred other things we could list.
I do feel though that any law you make about an age of criminal responsibility is going to have to have an actual age built in and then have safeguards built around HOW the process takes place after that. It sucks, and it is once again another factor where rich kids with expensive lawyers will get better outcomes than some kid with a public defender.. but that is another discussion on how fucked capitalism is.
I do genuinely believe that the age that an average kid both knows right from wrong AND knows there is consequences from their actions is about 13. I did not seperate those ideas in my original post and I should have.
Would you take a child who murdered or raped someone into your home?
@@cantsay2205 No, likely not, but that does not mean the next default should be to jail
@@cantsay2205No one is asking anyone to foster violent children.
There are specialized facilities that help provide professional treatment and rehabilitation for violent children. That rehabilitation might also include eventually getting children in a foster home, so they can learn what healthy family dynamics look like and are surrounded by supportive people, while still receiving professional help.
Again, no one is forcing anyone to invite violent people (children or adults) into their homes.
I think everybody has known a kid who was a psychopath to their core. I don't know what causes it, but some people are born psychopaths. I know a psychopath and he has told me he enjoys hurting people, and he especially enjoys talking other people into hurting somebody. This is a core part of themselves.
I feel people over use the word psychopath (not discounting the person you know I don’t know them) but actual diagnosable, psychopaths are pretty rare and most of them don’t commit crimes, I think a lot of people can just turn off or blunt their empathy or have sadistic tendencies without having psychopathy
@@Danheron2people often confuse pyscho and sociopath
@@Danheron2 @kingjellybean9795 the person I knew attempted to kill people in sneaky ways as a game. I know of somebody unrelated he killed by accident when he tried to kill someone else. He has no conscience that I know of, and doesn't care who he hurts as long as he can do it deviously so he isn't ever caught. I didn't think people like him existed outside fiction, but there he was. Even threatening and hurting me. And there was nothing I could do about it. I hope you never meet a real psychopath. 🤕
@@ZomBeeNature lol ya as I said i don’t know that particular individual he very well might be
what causes it?
Genetics, upbringing and other outside influences (media/friends/hobbies)
I remember the reaction to the Jamie Bulger case over here in the UK. It was... disspiriting. Simon is right about the difficulty. How on earth are you supposed to make a judgement about something like that?
How do women make a judgment on an unborn child? How's one okay and not the other. On one hand the unborn is just an "inconvenience" in most cases and in the case of kids who k*ll they've already shown why should they be gone.
@@kingjellybean9795 #whataboutism
Maybe there isn’t a right or wrong answer. It’s baffling anyone would want to do that
Isn't one of them a true psychopath? The one who was sent back to prison because of CP on his computer...
@@kingjellybean9795 First, isn't relevant. Second, it's a lot more nuanced than that. Third, Stfu.
Most children who kill have been abused however most abused children don’t kill. I wrote my masters criminology dissertation on the age of criminal responsibility and I still don’t have the answer. We should be trying to rehabilitate the young before their brains fully form but in some cases they cannot be rehabilitated if they are a psychopath for example. It’s such an emotive issue and one we will continue to grapple with 😔
As someone who was viciously bullied as a kid, I can say unequivocally that kids are little monsters, even the "nice" ones. I guarantee you have NO idea what an ugly little hatemonger your kid actually can be, with little or no reason. Real talk.
I also underwent a great deal of bullying growing up. I made some observations. There are basically 3 types of "bad kids". There are the rebels who are basically just carefree kids, there are the bullies, and then there are the psychopaths. The rebels are often lumped in with these kids, but really shouldn't be, because they aren't malicious. The bullies are horrible people, who will grow up to be that terrible boss in your corporation, because they always have things "their way" and people always placate them. The psychopaths are a completely different breed. These are "broken" humans who can't be fixed. These are the kids who torture animals...and enjoy it. They grow up to be mass shooters. Thankfully, the psychopath group is in the minority. But you have to understand, they cannot ever be reformed. They are deeply disturbed and sick individuals.
@@genx7006I feel like that’s a wild simplification lol I’ve known many bullies who were absolute bastards as kids and grew up to be good guys, I also know a kid who was one of the sweetest kid (and from what I know remains a really nice guy according to my sister who dated him) who killed 4 people in two days in two different gang shootings, I feel what you’re preaching is what they used to believe in the 70s that kid that are bad as kids will be bad for life and they should be marked as such which is just a recipe for disaster
@@Danheron2 Please don't mistake what I am saying. Someone who ends in a gang and guns someone down, while a heinous act of criminality, is not the same as someone who methodically tortures and kills someone for the pure enjoyment. These are two types of people. I was referring to the deranged lunatic type.
@ what differentiates these two types of people? I’m curious
@Danheron2 The viciousness of the intent.
I helped raised kids of various relatives and I can usually factor in things and "presume" who will be good, who will be naughty, and who will be evil.thankfully I have yet to meet a truly evil kid. sadly, parents usually refuse to see that their kids are going down hill or have no means to stop their kids short of imprisoning them.
When I was very young (6yrs at the very most), whenever I would get angry, I would hit my sister. I didn't see anything wrong with this until our mom sat me down and explained that what I was doing was hurting my sister. My sister was terrified of what I'd do to her when she told mom. I can still remember very clearly the horror and shame that I felt when I understood what I was doing. I'm 35 now and I've never hit my sister or anyone else in anger since.
I wonder how many stories would have different endings if there had been someone who could have gotten them to understand what they were doing. I know not all of them would change for the better (or at all), but maybe some of them would have
@@ViraIshniaYou are right. Parenting plays a pivotal role, and children depend on their parents to correct unwanted behavior and teaching them the skills to deal with their emotions in a safe and more productive way.
That being said, I'm glad that you had the support you needed and a parent that helped you understand your behavior, thereby helping in adjusting it. Your story perfectly illustrates that children often really are just unaware of how their behavior affects others.
Children depend on parents/guardians to teach them how to interact with their environment.
“There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.”
My pity is reserved for the victims, not for parents who choose not to parent their children.
So the kids.
I love your videos Simon!!! Thanks for giving stuff to listen to at work
The one thing I'm confudent in, is that children do not understand permanence and what consequences are. Once a child commits a severe crime, whether or not they go to jail is beyond me, I'd have to be on a jury and in a courtroom watching a specific case. But what I do wonder is what happens if we arrest a 12 year old. Children have to be raised... So how do they raise incarcerated children? What do we do when the child gets to be 18 and might be acquitted, and they get put out onto the streets to either reoffemd or die?
I believe the problem is that we are assuming that Punishment vs Rehabilitation are the only two options. The real answer, in my opinion, is to look at this from a public safety perspective. When you boil it down to that, it is no longer an emotional argument about loaded concepts like justice. It is a scientific question, a logical question, one we can answer on a case by case basis.
The only question that matters, truly, under such a scheme is whether or not the child poses a danger to public safety. As long as they are found to be dangerous, they must be kept locked up. If they are no longer dangerous, then they can transition back to society.
I agree with the public safety perspective. But I also think it is important that incarcerated/institutionalised children need to be provided with living conditions that don't harm their emotional and social development any further. If the living conditions in custody are unsuitable for children (e.g. in most adult prisons), they will likely be even more damaged than before they were instituionalised, so rehabilitation becomes very difficult or even impossible. So keep them locked up/ very closely supervised but respect their developmental needs and human rights (as much as this is possible without causing serious harm to other people), so that they might have a chance at rehabilitation at some point in the future.
I'm from the town where James Bulger was taken from. I remember being so shocked and disturbed that the killers were the same age as me. I also remember there were protests outside the courthouse when they appeared in front of the magistrates for preliminary hearings.
I feel their sentences were too lenient (as do many in this area for obvious reasons). James' mum worked tirelessly for years to try and keep them behind bars but was ignored. They were released with new identities. One of them went on to commit further crimes against children (CP). While i agree with restorative justice, it's hard to feel that way with a case so close to home.
This conversation rings close to home. I live and grew up in a Canadian city that was home to Canadas youngest multiple murderer. At the age of 12 Jasmine Richardson, woke up in the middle of the night, quietly let her 23 year old boyfriend into the house & under his supervision, she carried out their plan and crept room to room stabbing her father, mother, & 8 year old brother to death. All because her parents, rightfully so, didn't exactly approve of a 23 year old creep, who claimed to be a 200 year old werewolf(im not joking, i went to school with this guy and he was fucked in the head even then),dating their 12 year old daughter.
He got life in prison but, due to Canadian law requiring a person must be 14 to be tried as an adult and the maximum amount of time a child could be put in prison for any crime was 8 years, Jasmine was released at the age of 20 years old with not only a high school education but also the university degree she acquired while still locked up. Her name was also immediately changed upon release and then moved away somewhere to disappear and start a brand new life.
1. Child marriage is legal in Canada and approved by Conservatives
2. Conservatives love to get 'women' when they are young
I blame them and Trump
I love your ceramic succulents random I know to bring it up with such topics but your channel is so horrific and so nonchalant it’s insane almost to comprehend
_"Suzie! Look at your dreess. It's completely stained! What did we tell you?! You do not off your playmates, alright? That's very very naughty. Now go and apologize to your offed friend's parents. And no more screen time for an entire week, young lady!"_
Solid parenting. 👌
I immediately thought of Suzie from undertale with this
I don’t get where this idea of “childhood innocence” comes from, children can be incredibly capricious, nasty & brutal, seems like a patronizing projection from nostalgic adults than based in any reality, that’s not even scratching the surface especially if we are taking about teenagers who are often considered as children these days, do they no longer read “Lord of the Flies” in HS or is that considered too “problematic” these days I wonder? It did have the N word at least in one edition, but perhaps even the themes as whole, raising kids in “safe spaces” has just led to dysfunctional childlike adults
Gen X-er?
@
Millennial, but I do remember finding the key when I came from school
@@julianstone1192you used the wrong form of “no”, just fyi if you wanted to fix it, because your comment is a good one.
@@the_rachel_sam
Corrected, my keyboard keeps switching to Polish for some reason, but il blame it on the fact I’m sleep deprived instead thank you
Lord of the Flies is fiction!
A Real Life group of kids did get stranded BUT THEY DIDN'T KILL EACH OTHER!!!
Not being mature enough to understand consequences is not the same as knowing right from wrong
At age 6, my undiagnosed autism led me to outbursts where I lashed out at my environment and the adults in it. My parents and educators responded by torturing me through a combination of daily restraint protocols and near-constant punishment in the form of suspension and grounding for *years* .
I came to believe I was a monster who was incapable of success and who would always be a pox on the lives of those I loved... and who loved me.
Children... can be broken by the monsters around them... but does that make them monsters?
My heart breaks for you. My 6 year old has autism. I cut him a lot of slack aka I aim to meet him where he is developmentally. You can’t make children something they’re not, but you can destroy them.
Autism is a lie.
For the vast majority of the time, yes it does make them monsters.
Damn, how many chanels does Simon have?!??!?! I swear every few months i find another new one
Literally hearing his voice was a jump scare for me lol
My 11 yr old cousin just tried to stab his friend with a kitchen knife. His punishment was 1 week no tv. Smh. Hes been violent his entire childhood. Constantly punching and kicking. My aunt gets the most of it but he does it to other ppl too witha giant smile on his face. He will laugh when u get hurt cause he thinks it's funny. He also lies alot and has no empthay. He cant sympathize unless u relate it back to his life. Otherwise he just laughs at u and calls u names like stupid, weak, etc. He was tested and he has an extremely low EQ level for his age. Whether thats cuz hes a sociopath or hes just stunted im not sure. I believe hes at the very least a narcissist. Im a grown adult and there have been times where his lack of sympathy and the smile on his face when hes hitting my aunt send shivers down my spine. He genuinely gives me the creeps and i refuse to be left alone with him. I hope he grows out of it but hes already 11 and only gotten worse. I wouldnt be suprised if he hurts someone someday.
It would be interesting for a casual criminalist episode on the Jamie bulger case. It's one case that sticks with me especially looking at how one ended up re-offending
I was just looking it up… he reoffended multiple times, yet they have still protected his identity. It’s wild
Three weeks after my nephew turned 15, he murdered his two little brothers. Our family was thrust into an indescribably horrifying nightmare.
I was amazed at the most common reactions of people who heard his story: blaming the parents or dismissing the child as evil.
I've realized that those two reactions are a safety mechanism....by latching on to those "causes," people can convince themselves that it could never happen to their family.
I hate to say it, but that belief is a delusion. If it could happen in our family, to good parents and with a seemingly loving child, then it can happen anywhere.
Unfortunately, we have a system that wants to lock violent children away as quickly as possible, without trying to learn from them. As a result, we are unable to spot the NEXT perfect kid who becomes a monster.
My nephew is in prison, where he belongs, but only a limited number of people are safer due to his incarceration. I DEEPLY wish that our legal system had studied him, evaluated him, monitored him, LEARNED from him, so that we can spare other families from the nightmare that we have lived.
It's not a delusion. We hold parents responsible for their children for a reason. Same as children aren't considered adults until the age of 18.
That doesn't mean that the parents are knowingly or willfully failing to address issues their child may have.
The reality however is that it is just as much a parents responsibility to know if their children show violent behavior, to then address it and seek help if necessary.
Parents don't have to be malicious and extremely abusive to fail in raising their children to be functioning members of society.
But children's (and teenager's) brains are not fully developed until they reach their mid-20s. They have little concept to the consequences their behavior elicits, lack the ability to think long-term, and are generally less aware of how their actions might hurt others.
I'm truly sorry what your family went through. There also seems to be little chance that your nephew will be rehabilitated.
@mejuliie
In my nephew's case, after a year, counselors finally decided that my nephew killed his sibs because his parents didn't fight enough in front of the kids. They believed that, as a result, their kids didn't see conflict resolution in action enough.
THAT was the biggest crime anyone could pin on the parents.
If having a reasonably peaceful house causes kids to murder, then how do we raise safe kids? Fight, argue, beat and abuse in front of them?
As I said earlier, it can happen in ANY house.
@donijeffery-harris3056 Those honestly sounds like very unprofessional counselors.
Especially as I'm sure your nephew did learn some strategies of conflict resolution by having sibling, and his parents intervening and providing help to properly deal with conflicts and emotions. He would also have learned about it to some extent in school and in other social settings.
Also not something that generally can be pinned after just a year of counseling. Something, which I'm personally not a fan of, psychotherapy with a psychiatrist is what you'd want in a case like this. But I also understand if that simply not feasible.
While I do hope his parents will be able to understand what may have led to it to find closure eventually, I also hope they are able to move on from any guilt they might feel.
As I said before, mistakes happen and some children are just predisposed to violent behavior that may be difficult to address.
I also understand how frustrating it must be to you and your family, as it's difficult to pin down what exactly went wrong. Especially when his parents tried their best to be good parents and shield your nephew from conflict.
Unfortunately, it is so different from person to person that there is no single, perfect way to parent.
Something that also popped into my head while I continued to think of the tragedy your family experienced, that he may have had a psychotic break. Which is often what leads, otherwise well-adjusted people, to do something that is absolutely not like them without any warning signs. This can be triggered by underlying mental health issues (e.g. schizophrenia) or drug consumption (doesn't have to be hard drugs, cannabis for example can trigger psychotic episodes in people who are predispose to psychosis or schizophrenia).
@@mejuliie He has been in the prison psych ward since he was 17 for "unidentified mental illness," so some sort of psychotic break is likely.
As a child who could have been diagnosed at a very young age with a mental health issue, I really think the average member of the public doesn't understand childhood trauma, and how the cycle of violence churns out more violence.
I also think that to combat child caused violence, we need to work on domestic violence and intimate partner violence. These two highly linked types of violence could reduce a whole lot of violence in the world. Not just in children, but a lot of adult offenders too.
All the causes of DV/IPV are varied, so it would require serious effort, but reducing these kinds of violence including their root causes would do a tremendous amound of good. Including the economy, for those who will whinge about cost (Australia alone would save many millions a year for the economy if it could eliminate DV/IPV).
It does sounds idealistic, but also as a victim of childhood DV and adult DV that caused PTSD, it's more horrific than war (DV victims who get PTSD get it at rates twice higher than that of active combat veterans do, and we don't get basic training to psychologically condition us for it. Not saying they don't have it rough; PTSD sucks. Just they're not getting it in the place they're supposed to be safe, their home, and from people who are supposed to care about them. Veterans do have it rough in their very own seperate ways, and that can be PTSD that causes more PTSD or even worse cPTSD too).
I think once DV/IPV has been eliminated, it'll be easier to look at and examine people who have the psychopathy traits and how they are their own issues in the cycle of violence.
This is why social services can forcibly take children into custody. But research has shown that the state has completely failed to take care of the children in care. They end up with pedophiles or are just used as a monetary income and are completely neglected. Haven't heard that it would work better in other countries.
Check out the issues we have in Sweden with 13-17 year olds being used as hired killers in gang warfare on a weekly basis, no one has the slightest idea of how to handle this, we have always focused on sentencing children to max 4 years of care, but this system was not ready for today
Well balanced presentation thanks xxx
Many kids can change and come to the light so to speak. It really depends on the child and the resources available and the healthy relationships they form.
This must be for English speaking audiences *outside* the US. The US no longer worries about concepts like decency, justice or morality. Our main concern is cheap eggs.
it's not simply a matter of considering consequences;
youngsters do not have level of experience that leads to awareness of consequences;
they cannot consider things they're unaware of.
Not all children are sweet, hyper or of course cannot be antisocial psychopaths/sociopaths just stop denying it isn't possible.
Mental illness is a thing for children especially of those from dysfunctional families.
James Bulgers killers carried out extreme torture on that poor child and he would have suffered severely. One of his killers Jon Venables was released in 2001, arrested in 2010 for child abuse images, released in 2013, found to have more child abuse images, 1100 of them, most of which were in the worst category including toddlers being abused, and was re arrested in 2017. He was refused bail in 2023 and in my opinion, should rot in prison as clearly he hasn't been rehabilitated and still poses a serious threat to society. James's other killer Robert has disappeared since his release in 2001. In my opinion he should still be in prison too but unfortunately justice is never served. It's only been 31 years and James's parents still have to live through the agony of losing their gorgeous little boy every day.
That rehabilitation is even being discussed as an "option" instead of the default goal is horrifying. For every prisoner in the system.
Nothing brings back the poor children who were victims. It’s disgusting that they give these kids a second chance (except maybe the accidental one)
There's also the issue of gangs explicitly recruitint children, knowing they are easier to manipulate and are less likely to receive legal punishments
This is a massive problem in Aus. There's constant lectures about arresting people aged 14 and under for repeated crime including violent crimes. The response from rights activists etc is, well kids should be able to do whatever they please
kids are a form of life they have free will and yall act surprised when some decide to use it to kill innocent people like theres no way it should be possible well it is some people dosent matter age are just plain evil
Agree. Many adult murderers blame their childhood traumas and things like that for upbringing. So what should stop a child like that from killing without waiting for adulthood
Yeah.. no. You pretend as if chileren pop out of the womb with a fully developed brain, and perfect understanding of social norms.
Children are not adults. They are dependent on adults to learn how to engage with their environment. Children also don't have the ability to understand the consequences of choices. And they don't come equipped with the knowledge of "right" and "wrong".
Greetings from Norway and thanks for the shout out, Into the Shadow!
Just to add to what you said: in Norway, kids can't be criminally prosecuted until they're 15. If a child 14 or younger say killed someone here, CPS will get involved and monitor them closely, and an investigation into the contributing factors and how dangerous the child still is would take place, (there is for example quite a bit of difference between a child with psychopathic tendencies and an abuse victim lashing out in anger and going too far in desperation), and if necessary, the CPS would place the child into a government-funded CPS-ran institution/foster home if there were triggering factors in the kid's immediate environment leading to the killing, and they would also employ therapy, child psychologists and psychiatric treatment as well.
Like the 6yr old boy who shot his female teacher in a Chicago school, she survived but still believe he should've been harshly punished.
I'd like to point out that psychopathy is a mental illness and not a criminal offense. There are psychopaths who grow up to be functioning members of society. The thing about crime is that the enabling factor is one's ability to ignore empathy. Psychopaths make such devastating killers because they already don't experience empathy. However, not every psychopath becomes a cold-blooded killer with a taste for blood. Plus, they can learn sympathy for others. These are people, after all.
Children hardly change their phycology. If your annoying as a kid because you are, then you will change. But if your annoying for attention, that will not change.
...So children who are sadistic probably will not change for the better.
That is empirically not true.
@@mejuliie Explain why
Children need attention so if they don't get the attention they need they will be annoying so they get attention.
@@horrorhahn Exactly my point, thank you
We had a case in Serbia where a 13 year old took his fathers gun and killed 9 people in his school, one security guard and rest classmates. By law there isnt anything to be done, the father got 15 years and mom got 3 for random stuff but the child is in purgatory, stuck in psych wards. The people are pissed since the kids showed no remorse but its kinda a nothing can be done about it situation. At 18 hes probably gonna move away and start a new life
A classmate of mine accidentally killed another younger kid in the basement of his home. They had found the firearm belonging to a conservation officer in the woods. In spite of the fact that he tried to move the body and stage the scene of the accident, he was basically given the legal equivalent of a slap on the wrist. A year of probation, some community service, and he got to stay home. I don't think that what happened was malicious (it was incredibly irresponsible and stupid), but tell that to the family that had to endure their child's death and the trial that deemed his life valueless.
You have a good point here, that is not discussed enough. Reabilitation or not, who will think about the victim’s loved ones?
Good video Into the Shadows,excellently presented! Thanks for the case examples.A great help in understanding these questions you raise. Looking forward to more!
Whoa. Heavy one. 😬
Right? Between this and the recent video about teen incarceration, this channel is absolutely living up to its name.
Dont worry, most children arent heavy... unless their fat.
sarcasm 😉
if jail was something that actually worked, we wouldn't fear the outcome of sending a kid there.
Jon Venables was arrested and imprisoned as an adult due to possessing child pornography, so yeah...either he couldn't have been rehabilitated or any attempts to do so failed
Aspd always has precursors in childhood. Aspd is often due to varying brain abnormalities or disrupted development. Psychopathy tends to be something thats born with and there are specific neuroanatomical markers that can be even seen as early as infancy or as a toddler. Unfortunately, theres little you can do depending on the brain region in terms of rehabilitation. If its an area thats highly plastic and they dont demonstrate significant deficits and abnormal volumes, it may be possible to rewire the brain and form new adaptive skillsets. But this needs to be done between the ages of 2-6 years for highest efficacy. Post that age, its extremely difficult to build the synaptic connections that could reverse some of the behavioral deficits.
I always find it so interesting that people will decide that adults don't deserve rehabilitation and just deserve to be punished only.
This is such a paradox to me:
It seems widely recognized that childhood and upbringing are the time to receive education, learn about right and wrong, and be lead by good example. Yet in case of murder and other crimes it's super important to educate and punish only when grown up. A lawyer once told me that putting murderous minors in prison to scare other children from following their example was bullshit. During a time where humans are developing their understanding of "good things are rewarded, bad things are punished", the worst things of all are without consequenze. And while we all know how impressionable kids are, the system just dismisses that factor in this one regard. It's two different worlds we are living in, and they tell us the complete opposite.
Kids that are 11..12..14 etc are old enough to understand right and wrong. I think everyone is born knowing that there are some things that you should not do. I dont think anyones parents ever give their kids the life lesson of "dont murder people" But there was that case simon covered on one of his other channels (casual criminalist i think) of that 5 year old in india that was a serial killer. I think in some cases they cant be rehabilitated because theyre born with a disconnect in their brain and theyre not guided by that moral compass. They dont feel remorse or guilt. On some level the kid knew he did something wrong because he hid the bodies and when the police questioned him he told them give me some (i forget exactly what it was cookies or something) and ill tell you everything you want to know.
“Kids are cruel, jack. And I’m very in touch with my inner child.”
- a war criminal
I was a violent child, I would have uncontrollable rage fits and often hurt other kids during them. I look back and wonder why I was like that, and I am grateful that I am now very much the opposite. Kids emotions are enhanced massively compared an adults, so it's important to try and maintain peace and calmness when around them and communicating with them. I witnessed a lot of arguments in the house and I wonder is this the reason for my foul temper as a child.
Thank you for sharing your story, glad you found recourse: please tell us how you ended up that way, we need to know underlying causes & prevention
@@cringeyidiotterry everyone's life, family, surroundings etc are different. I guess I was just taught to stick up for myself from being young and did so, sometimes taking it too far through loss of my temper. I've learned through life experiences, predominantly serving time in the army and traveling a lot, that a peaceful, simple life is the key to happiness, and it's happiness that we all seek. Keep your circle small, only let in those who would do the same for you, while still projecting kindness and peace to all.
@cringeyidiotterry I was raised to stick upto bullies and hit back those who hit me. Though sometimes, my anger would best me and I'd hit first or lose control all together. I was a good kid most of the time and raised by a good family. Traveling a lot and serving in the army, along with other events and encounters in my life, have taught me that peace and a simple life are most valuable to one's happiness. I keep my circle small whereas I used to seek popularity. I remain self disciplined whilst still enjoying my life. I don't dwell on the past nor worry what might be around the corner.
I've been through bullying and abuse. Mainly from other kids in primary school...
But also from my own father, especially when I entered high school.
When you're too young to have any legal standing, or don't know how to get any... Well, sometimes there's only one option.
I had an opportunity to get rid of my father, and I regret not taking it.
That should tell you everything you need to know about why some kids end up as murderers.
Thank you for sharing your story, please provide more details if you're comfortable with this (we need to know as much as possible)
Society's impossible dilemma is what to do about parenting. Clearly there are people who do it right and clearly there are people who do it wrong. What's the solution? How would you enforce such a solution? And should it be enforced?
In Wisconsin (US) there is a state-run Mendota Juvenile Treatment Center program that works with adolescents with antisocial personality disorder who have committed violent crimes and not responded to standard correction strategies. It is an intensive impatient program in a locked psychiatric facility that has a proven track record for reducing recidivism (program participants were 6 times less likely to commit felony violence than a similar group without treatment) but is expensive because it requires double the staff members and low caseloads for psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers. It isn't perfect, but offers hope that violent juveniles can be rehabilitated.
The problem tends to be when the public gets involved in these cases, if the kids do end up rehabilitating well they can never return to society since random people believe they are the devil now or something
I've met adults with ASPD, one who could be defined as sociopathic (but largely due to being conditioned to be so by a narcissistic parent) and one a definitive psychopath (like cruelty to people and animals, unable to experience normal emotions, especially things like love and joy, extreme possessiveness and controlling behaviours, massively overblown sense of self importance, only ever excited or aroused by causing harm, etc. He was very aware of what he was, not diagnosed mind but proud of it (and proud of all the crimes he got away with - some of which include kidnapping his kids from his first wife multiple times, making her send him money to return them after his contact time, things like that. And one time he punished his second wife by forcing her to sit in the front seat of the car, then putting their 1&3yr olds in the backseat with no car seats n no seatbelts, then deliberately driving fast and recklessly, including zigzags to make the babies fall around the back seat, giving them concussions, then when police pulled him over and saw the kids he proudly said he just talked to the cop for a few minutes, don't know what he said, but the cop then permitted him to carry on so long as he stopped speeding- this is in the UK btw and the story was verified by the missus after she fled him with their kids, she still has nightmares about it, not understanding why the police didn't help them), but not free from delusional thinking - kept trying to convince me he was chosen by god to lead people cos god had made him unburdened by human emotions, didn't like it when I said if you were chosen by god then you'd not get aroused by hurting folk/animals).
But non of them scared me more than a five year old I nannied for, years ago now, who showed early signs of ASPD, specifically towards the psychopathic end of the ASPD spectrum. I'll never forget, my fist day with him, when he hurt his younger sibling, tried acting all innocent and I said "that act doesn't fool me" and he then blinked at me, like you could see the cogs turning in his mind, then started crying and fell to the floor kicking. I said "neither does that act." And he stopped crying immediately, sat up, tilted his head as he looked me in the eye, clearly trying to sus me out, and after a few moments said "you're not like most adults are you?"
While I worked there I'd try and teach him to behave more appropriately (specifically, most of our conversations were me trying to teach him why he should bother with trying to pick good behaviour, when he gets away with the bad behaviour most of the time, me being his only exception so far, and it's way more fun to just do what he enjoys - and this was 5yr old, talked like a ten yr old when he wasn't acting the sweet innocent lad), but while he stopped the hurting others when I was around, it was only when he was under my supervision, when I wasn't around he was his normal self hurting other animals and kids and acting all innocent or crying if he got caught. Thing was he was already very good at getting away with hurting others, like animals, other kids at school or in the family would suspicious injuries around him that the adults thought were his doing but couldn't prove, so he seldom got caught (the other kids wouldn't admit he wasnhurting them either, not even his tweenage cousin, they were scared of him, at age five). And while alot of the adults would admit they found him creepy and uncomfortable to be around, non of them would commit to admitting that in writing, to get this kid a psychologist assessment. Which I get, as a childcare professional, you're basically trained that nurture trumps nature, which is true most of the time. But there's a sense of "giving up" on a kid if you admit their nature is messed up.
I had to leave that job cos he was posing a risk to my children and no matter what research or evidence I presented his mum with, she refused point blank to talk him to a psychologist. I told her when I left that I understand it's hard to accept your kid is a danger to others but you're doing him no favours by staying in denial, and you're not safeguarding your youngest, one day he'll injure his sibling or a school kid enough that socia get involved, best she get him support and try to prevent things getting worse. I also told her that I'm going to inform social myself that I believe this child has the protential to be a real risk to his future classmates and sibling, without the proper therapeutic support, that it's not due to lack of nurture cos there is alot of love in their family, his mum was tying herself in knots trying to juggle everything, she loved both her boys deeply and their needs were all met, she wasn't neglecting or abusing them, but that I wanted my observations of her eldest on record incase when he's older, if he does hurt someone seriously or if mum does decide to seek professional support, then there's evidence of this being recognised in early youth on the social systems records, which will hopefully help speed up the seeking help process up for them, hopefully
Do not say it's not abuse. She neglected her duty to get her kid professional help, potentially doomed him to be a serious offender, a future prison fodder.
Obviously, theres a distinction to be made between kids who kill, and kids who knowingly, make a conscious decision to kill. There are, unfortunately, more than the ideal number of instances where a kid has found a parents gun, or gotten hold of a knife, or otherwise bumbled their way into killing a person by accident. That's a tragedy.
But kids who choose to kill are a different issue, and for the sake of public safety, society HAS to be willing to isolate such individuals and by so doing insulate society from the harm they pose.
Why? Because kids who choose, apropos of nothing, to just off someone for kicks, are no less aware of the consequences of their actions than adults who do the same thing. Psychopathy is AGELESS.
Even children know that murder is wrong. So unless there's some extenuating circumstances I don't think light sentences are sensible. Accidental deaths obviously not included.
Children don't necessarily understand the finality of murder. You don't let young children drive cars, you don't let children run for office, and you don't let children vote because they make dumb decisions and they do not understand the consequences of their actions.
Your definition of "wrong" changes as you grow up though. Initially, "wrong" just means you will receive some sort of punishment, so it's fear of the consequences that stops you doing it, not any empathy or morals. When I was younger any apology I gave for things was solely to get out of trouble, there was no actual care (in retrospect I think telling kids to say sorry is pointless). As you get older "wrong" changes to the impact on others, eventually it gets nuanced and philosophical, it becomes about what is and isn't best for society.
@@adriannaconnor6471 i guess it was all children who voted in the united States election then.
Its stupid to ever let that kids parents around any kids ever again.
Children are told that murder is wrong, but they don’t have enough insight or experience to actually have a deep understanding of why. It’s kind of the problem here.
As someone who lives in a country where the justice system priorities rehabilitation and the sentences are very light, I can 100% say that that DOES NOT WORK. No one is happy with this system here, and relapse crimes are very common. How would you feel if your child is hurt by another child who already had a couple of crimes that they were sentenced for? For me, the justice system should prioritize the prevention of future crimes and the safety of the 99%, not rehabilitation of criminals and psychopaths.
What country is that because other countries that focus on rehabilitation have lower rates of re offending?
Maybe your country went to far with the rehabilitation bit and needs to add longer sentences as well
Venables and Thompson weren’t sentenced to life in prison but to indefinite detention “at Her Majesty’s pleasure,” which I believe is the only sentencing possible for juveniles who commit murder in the UK. So they were not technically released “early.” The case is interesting because, while Venables re-offended, Thompson appears not to have (at least, we’re not aware of it, perhaps because unlike Venables he was better at not blowing his cover). My own view is that the focus should be on rehabilitation, but the punishment needs to be severe for any re-offense. Certainly in the case of Venables the punishment for his first re-offense was much too light, and when he was released again he then soon re-offended a second time.
Yeah Venables has that fixation on child crimes. He admitted that and I think he has been denied parole a few times because of that risk, which is great.
I'm also glad Thompson is able to live life now after serving time and growing up into adulthood. He will carry the guilt for life.
@@chlorineismyperfume Thompson may be free, but yeah, what he did 30 years ago along with venables, that guilt cannot be washed off.
They are both a product of their environment, which was deeply fucked up.
One school shotter in Brazil (6 killed with shots and hummer hits) received just a 3 year sentence. It is the max allowed to minors here, he was 15 at the time. The father, a cop that let the gun unsupervised, received one month of paid leave. He will leave jail in about a year, with no crimes in his file.
In high school in rural SE Indiana in the 80s me and another kid were both targeted by the same bully, and though we commiserated together, we solved our issue in different ways. I stood up to the bully and we tangled, once. After a few punches, he backed off. The other kid decided to bring a handgun to school and unalive the bully. He showed it to someone on the bus, and they told on him. He was sent to a juvenile mental health institution for the rest of the school year. Shortly after being released he attempted to assault and Grape one of his neighbors with a knife. She defended herself and subdued him. I didn't see that kid for 5 years and from what I've heard over years, he has continued to further his relationship with the Indiana Department of Corrections. At one point he was in the same facility for "young offenders" as Mike Tyson.
I had no clue of Tyson’s prison time. Crazy that he is a convicted rpist and society just decided to let that slide.
@the_rachel_sam He did spend 3 years in prison in a high security youth detention center.
@@AeroGuy07 I meant culturally, since he’s still famous and liked.
@@the_rachel_sam Yeah, I get what you're saying. It was 30 years ago and people don't remember, or like you, didn't know, because it's not publicized now. But when it happened it was a big deal.