This may be the first TMB review I've come across that didn't mention component quality! Maybe CTG has been around long enough now that their high production values (and associated cost) are just a given. I agree with most all of your points, including how this game seems to get better with more play. I agree that the synergies between multiple characters (I typically play with 3) are fun to discover and exploit. I originally thought the Battle Mat was too small but eventually realized the close quarters expose a surprising amount of interesting tactical decisions. Good stuff!
Paul, it's less that they are a given, and more that with my review format, which focuses heavily on design and mechanics, it's rare for components to make it into the discussion. Usually it's only for games that are really simplistic (so it's tough to find 5 things to discuss), or games where the components are terrible. But I agree, they are really nice! :)
Appreciate that you are finally giving TMB the recognition it deserves. Already had the whole set of everything and waiting for the Splice and Dice expansion.
Hahaha, yeah, I'm going to officially eat some crow on our podcast episode about it. Though in my defense, I think the first edition rules could have been a LOT clearer :)
@@OneStopCoopShop - There were definitely some rule look-ups which flustered me. Mostly due to finding what I was looking for in the rules. Haven't checked out the latest rules, but hopefully it's delineated a bit better. Still had a lot of fun with it.
Hi Mike, may I ask your opinion please on Undertow and if you think it has enough legs on it own, without getting other TMB content? And also if its anything like Victorum when you tried it out on TTS... specifically the tactical play on the mat. I backed Victorum and I don't want to get anything remotely similar in that regard. Depending on your opinion, I may go for Cloudspire instead, a whole different beast entirely! Many thanks!
So first, yes, Victorum and TMB have some similarities in tactical play. I don't think they are SUPER similar, but certainly Cloudspire is, as you said, a different beast. That said, Undertow is fine for bosses and enemies and encounter variety. Where it suffers most as a standalone is in gearlocs, player characters. Duster and Stanza are both a lot of fun, but Stanza is fairly advanced, so you only have one beginner friendly character, and can't play beyond 2 gearlocs. The original set, in comparison, has 4 gearlocs, and all of them somewhat accessible while still fun. So if you wanted to get Undertow, I'd recommend being prepared to also pick up at least a couple expansion gearlocs. Duster, Ghillie, and Gasket tend to be fan favorites. But then you are getting up to the same price as the main game, so............. your call! :)
@@OneStopCoopShop thanks for the reply Mike, I think I'm going to go for Cloudspire instead! I've heard so many good things for it solo, and any negative comments I see I'm not too bothered about, whereas the negative comments for TMB could bother me. Which ever I choose I'm sure I won't be disappointed, and the second hand market for both are pretty good. Thanks Mike, you should have your own phone in radio show like Frasier, but about board games :D
YAAAAS!!! Over the moon winning this. Big thanks to everyone at the channel for running the comp and for Chip Theory putting up the prize. Lockdown in Scotland just got alot less boring. Thanks for continuing with the videos during this mental time dudes. Appreciate it all the vids. Thanks again, delighted is an understatement. 😁👍
I might of missed it, but what do you think about the solo play in Too Many Bones? The coop seems really fun with the potential combos you talked about.
I enjoy playing with one gearloc every once in a while, mainly to experiment with a new gearloc, or for the change of pace of seeing the solo encounter deck. But I prefer to play with 2-3 gearlocs when I am playing solo, for the combos, and because it balances out potential random swings in combat.
Thanks for the review! I got the base game and undertow, but held off on splice and dice until I actually get the game out onto the table more. Two questions for you: how was the learning curve for you, taking into account the rules AND all the different key words? And I know there have been a few variants tossed around on bgg to mitigate the downward spiral of losing, have you tried any of those?
I have not tried any variants, but I would like to I think, just so I don't have to quite hopeless games halfway through :) As for the learning curve, this was an interesting one for me. When I played the first printing of the base game years ago, I had a VERY tough time with the rules (justifiably, I think... they've gotten better). That's part of why my old podcast review was fairly negative. But this time, coming back, it was much easier. The new rules are better, there are tons of resources online, etc. But I've played all of Hoplomachus and Cloudspire at this point, so I think I'm used to dealing with a ton of keywords at once!
Michael - Spot on. I’m recently new to the Base game myself. I did notice as well, if you start to lose a few encounters, might as well start over. Depending on length of encounter of course. A little easier on Adventure mode (the easiest mode) but still can be detrimental with too many unsuccessful encounters. Especially in a row. Still love the game. I just missed the time limit for this contest, ha ha, was in fact answering the questions. That just means someone else needed it more than me 😁! Congrats to the winners.
We were discussing over on Facebook some mitigation variant, like a lesser level up, when you fail. If the game had an option to "fix" that, I'd have almost no complaints at all.
Honestly, I think if you stick with it and keep playing it, you'll find that it's way less swingy than you think it is. Both with the rolls, and with encounter losses. Heck, I just did the Undertow campaign (playing as Duster and Nugget). Had about 3 losses right in the middle of it (the sorts of losses that make me go "why did I do that?"). Still managed to get to the end, and defeat Nobulous without all that much trouble (wasnt as hard as the Goblin Queen fight, nope). And thinking of the encounters lost, I probably missed out on like 6 skill points and a whole blob of loot. Stats werent particularly superb either... Duster's max HP was 5 and Nugget's was 6, so they didnt win by tanking everything. The game can feel very harsh (and sometimes REALLY frustrating) but it does always give you the tools to succeed. Same with the rolls... I always see people complain about swingy rolls and encounters being over before they've started, but... honestly I've never seen it happen. I do think the difficulty overall has issues though. Like, there's some enemy skills that can seem super broken when you're first learning the game. I remember when I first started, I thought the Break ability was, well, broken. Exhaust my all-important attack dice even if I'm hitting from range? Seemed ridiculous! After enough plays though it turns out that ability really isnt all that bad. But I suspect alot of players probably get a tad frustrated before they reach that point. It just has that sort of learning curve to it. Would have liked to see that smoothed out though, something to help ease players into the sorts of strategy/tactics that the game demands of them. The bit about skills though, I kinda agree with. Some skills are a bit too important. Like, any skill at all that causes Bleed. Doesnt matter which characters I am using, if any of them have bleed skills, those are priority #1. Stuff like that. Not that those skills arent fun or interesting, but in some cases they could be balanced a little better in some ways. Of course then there's a few skills that just seem really out of place. Like Nugget has one that can allow her to ignore one bone when rolling to improve attack/defense when upgrading. But of course, that skill die has to come up on the right roll itself, and then it sits in a locked slot until used....That one's not worth it at all, and I dont get why it's there. Maybe I'm missing something with it, I dunno. Spectacular game overall though. Honestly my own biggest gripe with it is the setup. It takes forever. The more content you have, the longer it takes. All the baddie chip sorting in particular. All the content is sooooooo good though. But yeah, takes like 5 million years.
Good call on the set-up. I just have Undertow at the moment, so it's only 3 types of baddies and goes very quickly. What I think I might do in the future is just keep ALL the baddies shuffled, and redraw when I get a type that doesn't match the tyrant. Boom, problem solved, somewhat ;)
I have loved these games for a while. Probably my biggest hang up is that you have to keep playing it every so often so you don’t go down 15 minute rabbit holes of refreshing how certain baddie abilities and gearloc abilities interact. I don’t disagree with any of the points you made. There is something about the game that works really well for me and I can really play it a lot, even if three days into a campaign, I give up and restart 😅
I feel you on the keywords and things, though actually this one didn't bug me too much. The gearlocs I've played a bunch (Duster, Tantrum, Boomer) are still easy to remember after a few months off.
Great works as always, Michael. I was scrolling through some of the player ratings for TMB on BGG and noticed that you posted your thoughts on the game there as well (in April 2020), which seem far more critical. Some of the issues you you had, such as lack of viable leveling paths, claustrophobic combat, dark components, error prone writing and a poor rule book weren't mentioned in the review. Are these criticisms still valid in your opinion? I enjoy TMB quite a bit but feel that it is far, far from a perfect game or experience. Especially egregious are the difficulty spikes and large swings in encounter quality. Also, the component choices sometimes reduce functionality, accessibility and sustainability of the product whilst significantly driving up the cost.
Yup. I have to update that. Many of those complaints were for the first printing of the game (errors, darkness). The rules are much better now as well. I think there might still be a “best” upgrade path in many cases, but I’ve grown to enjoy the experimentation of less ideal paths after more plays, if that makes sense.
I agree with all of this. Considering the cost and the hype, this has been up there as one of the most disappointing games I’ve played (worth noting that “worst” and “disappointing” are two very different things)
One of the most overrated games in my opinion ... Luck is playing a HUGE role in the gameplay and the combat system is really "clunky" ... There is little To no strategy as all the enemies and player clogs up the "battle board" ... Cloudspire is a better game to this, more strategic and more skill based
I will agree with you that Cloudspire is more strategic and skill-based, and I think I might like it a bit more than TMB overall. But they are both very enjoyable games for me :)
So glad to hear you like this now. One of my favorites.
I guess we are getting closer and closer in our tastes ;)
Congrats to the winners!
This may be the first TMB review I've come across that didn't mention component quality! Maybe CTG has been around long enough now that their high production values (and associated cost) are just a given.
I agree with most all of your points, including how this game seems to get better with more play. I agree that the synergies between multiple characters (I typically play with 3) are fun to discover and exploit. I originally thought the Battle Mat was too small but eventually realized the close quarters expose a surprising amount of interesting tactical decisions.
Good stuff!
Paul, it's less that they are a given, and more that with my review format, which focuses heavily on design and mechanics, it's rare for components to make it into the discussion. Usually it's only for games that are really simplistic (so it's tough to find 5 things to discuss), or games where the components are terrible.
But I agree, they are really nice! :)
Appreciate that you are finally giving TMB the recognition it deserves. Already had the whole set of everything and waiting for the Splice and Dice expansion.
Hahaha, yeah, I'm going to officially eat some crow on our podcast episode about it. Though in my defense, I think the first edition rules could have been a LOT clearer :)
@@OneStopCoopShop - There were definitely some rule look-ups which flustered me. Mostly due to finding what I was looking for in the rules.
Haven't checked out the latest rules, but hopefully it's delineated a bit better. Still had a lot of fun with it.
Hi Mike, may I ask your opinion please on Undertow and if you think it has enough legs on it own, without getting other TMB content? And also if its anything like Victorum when you tried it out on TTS... specifically the tactical play on the mat. I backed Victorum and I don't want to get anything remotely similar in that regard.
Depending on your opinion, I may go for Cloudspire instead, a whole different beast entirely!
Many thanks!
So first, yes, Victorum and TMB have some similarities in tactical play. I don't think they are SUPER similar, but certainly Cloudspire is, as you said, a different beast.
That said, Undertow is fine for bosses and enemies and encounter variety. Where it suffers most as a standalone is in gearlocs, player characters. Duster and Stanza are both a lot of fun, but Stanza is fairly advanced, so you only have one beginner friendly character, and can't play beyond 2 gearlocs. The original set, in comparison, has 4 gearlocs, and all of them somewhat accessible while still fun.
So if you wanted to get Undertow, I'd recommend being prepared to also pick up at least a couple expansion gearlocs. Duster, Ghillie, and Gasket tend to be fan favorites. But then you are getting up to the same price as the main game, so............. your call! :)
@@OneStopCoopShop thanks for the reply Mike, I think I'm going to go for Cloudspire instead! I've heard so many good things for it solo, and any negative comments I see I'm not too bothered about, whereas the negative comments for TMB could bother me. Which ever I choose I'm sure I won't be disappointed, and the second hand market for both are pretty good.
Thanks Mike, you should have your own phone in radio show like Frasier, but about board games :D
@@jackrutter9797 hahaha, that would be great, especially if I also have a snarky producer to deal with ;)
@@OneStopCoopShop this addressed my question regarding victorum and tmb similarities, but also got a bonus with a mini convo regarding Fraiser 😂
We told you, it’s the one stop shop!!! ;)
Too Many Bones is one of those games where you really have to spend some time on it to really appreciate it. you have to "Learn" to love it.
Very true. I feel that even more about Cloudspire. Which sadly means many will never fully enjoy them ;)
YAAAAS!!! Over the moon winning this. Big thanks to everyone at the channel for running the comp and for Chip Theory putting up the prize. Lockdown in Scotland just got alot less boring. Thanks for continuing with the videos during this mental time dudes. Appreciate it all the vids. Thanks again, delighted is an understatement. 😁👍
Huge congrats to you Mark! I know you're going to enjoy your winnings.
I might of missed it, but what do you think about the solo play in Too Many Bones? The coop seems really fun with the potential combos you talked about.
I enjoy playing with one gearloc every once in a while, mainly to experiment with a new gearloc, or for the change of pace of seeing the solo encounter deck. But I prefer to play with 2-3 gearlocs when I am playing solo, for the combos, and because it balances out potential random swings in combat.
Thanks for the review! I got the base game and undertow, but held off on splice and dice until I actually get the game out onto the table more. Two questions for you: how was the learning curve for you, taking into account the rules AND all the different key words? And I know there have been a few variants tossed around on bgg to mitigate the downward spiral of losing, have you tried any of those?
I have not tried any variants, but I would like to I think, just so I don't have to quite hopeless games halfway through :)
As for the learning curve, this was an interesting one for me. When I played the first printing of the base game years ago, I had a VERY tough time with the rules (justifiably, I think... they've gotten better). That's part of why my old podcast review was fairly negative.
But this time, coming back, it was much easier. The new rules are better, there are tons of resources online, etc.
But I've played all of Hoplomachus and Cloudspire at this point, so I think I'm used to dealing with a ton of keywords at once!
god, I love this game so much
Damn, I saw my name on that sheet! Congrats to the winners :)
We are taunting you!!! ;)
Michael - Spot on. I’m recently new to the Base game myself. I did notice as well, if you start to lose a few encounters, might as well start over. Depending on length of encounter of course. A little easier on Adventure mode (the easiest mode) but still can be detrimental with too many unsuccessful encounters. Especially in a row. Still love the game.
I just missed the time limit for this contest, ha ha, was in fact answering the questions. That just means someone else needed it more than me 😁! Congrats to the winners.
We were discussing over on Facebook some mitigation variant, like a lesser level up, when you fail. If the game had an option to "fix" that, I'd have almost no complaints at all.
One Stop Co-op Shop - I may have missed it, I’ll look for it. You know how FB can be, sometimes show you stuff in Your feed, then NOT!
Honestly, I think if you stick with it and keep playing it, you'll find that it's way less swingy than you think it is. Both with the rolls, and with encounter losses. Heck, I just did the Undertow campaign (playing as Duster and Nugget). Had about 3 losses right in the middle of it (the sorts of losses that make me go "why did I do that?"). Still managed to get to the end, and defeat Nobulous without all that much trouble (wasnt as hard as the Goblin Queen fight, nope). And thinking of the encounters lost, I probably missed out on like 6 skill points and a whole blob of loot. Stats werent particularly superb either... Duster's max HP was 5 and Nugget's was 6, so they didnt win by tanking everything. The game can feel very harsh (and sometimes REALLY frustrating) but it does always give you the tools to succeed. Same with the rolls... I always see people complain about swingy rolls and encounters being over before they've started, but... honestly I've never seen it happen.
I do think the difficulty overall has issues though. Like, there's some enemy skills that can seem super broken when you're first learning the game. I remember when I first started, I thought the Break ability was, well, broken. Exhaust my all-important attack dice even if I'm hitting from range? Seemed ridiculous! After enough plays though it turns out that ability really isnt all that bad. But I suspect alot of players probably get a tad frustrated before they reach that point. It just has that sort of learning curve to it. Would have liked to see that smoothed out though, something to help ease players into the sorts of strategy/tactics that the game demands of them.
The bit about skills though, I kinda agree with. Some skills are a bit too important. Like, any skill at all that causes Bleed. Doesnt matter which characters I am using, if any of them have bleed skills, those are priority #1. Stuff like that. Not that those skills arent fun or interesting, but in some cases they could be balanced a little better in some ways. Of course then there's a few skills that just seem really out of place. Like Nugget has one that can allow her to ignore one bone when rolling to improve attack/defense when upgrading. But of course, that skill die has to come up on the right roll itself, and then it sits in a locked slot until used....That one's not worth it at all, and I dont get why it's there. Maybe I'm missing something with it, I dunno.
Spectacular game overall though. Honestly my own biggest gripe with it is the setup. It takes forever. The more content you have, the longer it takes. All the baddie chip sorting in particular. All the content is sooooooo good though. But yeah, takes like 5 million years.
Good call on the set-up. I just have Undertow at the moment, so it's only 3 types of baddies and goes very quickly.
What I think I might do in the future is just keep ALL the baddies shuffled, and redraw when I get a type that doesn't match the tyrant. Boom, problem solved, somewhat ;)
Never played it always happy to put something new on the table.
It’s mostly been a hit with those I’ve played with, but can be a bit polarizing, skimming through other reviews and opinions.
I have loved these games for a while. Probably my biggest hang up is that you have to keep playing it every so often so you don’t go down 15 minute rabbit holes of refreshing how certain baddie abilities and gearloc abilities interact. I don’t disagree with any of the points you made. There is something about the game that works really well for me and I can really play it a lot, even if three days into a campaign, I give up and restart 😅
I feel you on the keywords and things, though actually this one didn't bug me too much. The gearlocs I've played a bunch (Duster, Tantrum, Boomer) are still easy to remember after a few months off.
Great video Michael. after playing cloudspire i think i need to get this one too lol
I apologize to your wallet!!
Great works as always, Michael. I was scrolling through some of the player ratings for TMB on BGG and noticed that you posted your thoughts on the game there as well (in April 2020), which seem far more critical. Some of the issues you you had, such as lack of viable leveling paths, claustrophobic combat, dark components, error prone writing and a poor rule book weren't mentioned in the review.
Are these criticisms still valid in your opinion?
I enjoy TMB quite a bit but feel that it is far, far from a perfect game or experience. Especially egregious are the difficulty spikes and large swings in encounter quality. Also, the component choices sometimes reduce functionality, accessibility and sustainability of the product whilst significantly driving up the cost.
Yup. I have to update that. Many of those complaints were for the first printing of the game (errors, darkness). The rules are much better now as well. I think there might still be a “best” upgrade path in many cases, but I’ve grown to enjoy the experimentation of less ideal paths after more plays, if that makes sense.
I agree with all of this. Considering the cost and the hype, this has been up there as one of the most disappointing games I’ve played (worth noting that “worst” and “disappointing” are two very different things)
dang I wish I knew if I even got em correct lol
Oh, I can check for you later and let you know on the Slack!
WHAT?! I DIDN'T WIN!? I MEAN I DIDN'T ENTER BUT I SHOULD WIN!!! RAWWR
Don't you already own all the TMB stuff? :)
@@OneStopCoopShop of course I do.
Hungry Gamer - Ha! That’s funny! After Covid, we need to play! 😁
@@Tombonzo sure!
Such a solid game company
One of the most overrated games in my opinion ... Luck is playing a HUGE role in the gameplay and the combat system is really "clunky" ... There is little To no strategy as all the enemies and player clogs up the "battle board" ... Cloudspire is a better game to this, more strategic and more skill based
I will agree with you that Cloudspire is more strategic and skill-based, and I think I might like it a bit more than TMB overall. But they are both very enjoyable games for me :)