The VOCALS of Le Sserafim (bullying or valid criticism)
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- This is my commentary on the current discourse on vocal abilities and the idea of valid criticism vs bullying after the encore performance from Le Sserafim.
My Social:
Instagram - / cloudchungxiao
- Content -
0:00 - Intro
0:50 - Backstory
1:35 - Toxicity
3:43 - Sakura
6:23 - Perfectionism
8:13 - Final Thoughts
9:02 - Outro
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The company knew damn well most of the members couldn't sing yet they still debuted them instead of making them train for longer to improve. I don't get it man, I just don't.
Exactly! Somu is not here for the music, they're after the fame & money because they know that the gurls will still have die hard fans as long as they give them want they want.
I feel like most of them can sing pretty decently. Not like main vocals type of vibes but at a passable idol standard if they didn't have choreo. That's kinda where the training should have happened to fuse the two. But obviously there is more than just skills that make groups feel ready to debut.
Like fr it’s not 100% Kazuha or Eunchaes fault for not being able to sing, bc they were trained for so little,plus Kazuha was trained more as a rapper instead of a singer
This really ain’t a valid excuse. These idols are either good singers or not. SM girls could never sing as bad as these HYBE girls because SM prioritizes vocals! Taeyon Wendy and NingNing will literally sing circles around these girls…that’s a fact!
Soumu is never about talent..
something i had to learn being in kpop spaces (especially with girl group stans), kpop stans can never and will never keep anything to “just criticism”. any criticism or flaw pointed out en masse will snowball into a hate train over everything. it happens to every other girl group, so it makes sense it would make fans become defensive.
Ohh for sure. Kpop stans can get so toxic really quick and so that's why it's hard to navigate discussion regarding valid criticism to groups because it can take a sharp left turn just like that.
Thiss
Fs!!! It suddenly becomes so divided because so many people are overly critical or tactless in their criticism or even just mean about things that have very little to do with talent (especially in regards to girl groups), that when someone gives genuinely valid criticism, people either use that to be cruel and hype up their faves OR they go on the defense bc they think you're being hateful. It's difficult bc things also get really lost in translation over social media as well. I think people forget that two things can be true at once, as a lot of media likes to omit certain things to fit a narrative. We forget that one truth doesn't necessarily discredit another. For example, I can enjoy content and understand that an artist could improve on some things. I can see that someone can sing poorly sometimes and sing their best another time. But when we focus on only one thing so intensely, we become blind to any other ideas. That's why we have overly defensive fans and overly critical fans and fan wars
That's why gg stans scare me so much
@@Hellokitty_391it’s always gg Stan’s being the loudest haters tbh
the thing is, they got criticised at debut for their fearless encore (which got overshadowed by the garam scandal) and then again for unforgiven. so seeing them struggle to sing their own song again will lead to a lot of backlash. chaewon/yunjin are their strongest singers but even they aren’t doing a good job of singing their lines well. and then you have sakura who seem incapable of singing well at all. the backlash is also because hybe keeps posting videos of them singing their songs live while dancing when its just live AR so seeing the encore showed that hybe is trying to manipulate people too
it reminds me of how twice got criticised for their vocals in their early years but due to their popularity and the group being young, people let it go (especially with jihyo/nayeon singing most of the songs). and then more&more encore led to a lot of backlash since the group was older and the line distribution had everyone sing a decent amount of lines. its why their next cb with ICSM is basically nayeon+jihyo ft the group in the line distribution.
Ohh yea, I've noticed a lot of live AR in performance which has been the biggest illusion that's tripping up people for sure.
But Twice has improved their vocals, lsf can too
I don't agree that people let it go for Twice because they were a young group. Around cheer up and TT era EVERYONE hated on them for "not being able to sing" it was really really bad.
I don't necessarily hear much about Twice's vocal improvement. I do remember them facing a very similar thing as Le Sserafim but they've just kinda did their thing and are just vibing.
@@victoriamiller1752 but twice is a group with many pretty members and people always forgiven fairies hahahha, yes the fame can't hold forever by them
It's not bullying to call out singers for their inability to sing. It's a little troubling that K-pop stans can't discern criticism from bullying and immediately become defensive when their faves are called out for their lack of skills. K-pop stans tend to coddle Idols as if their fragile babies rather than grown adults with a job to do. Calling out Sakura for being bad at her job is not bullying, and she will never improve if her fans continue to shield her from constructive criticism.
For sure. I think the hard part for the discerning bullying and crticism is the fact that some commenter go a little to ham and start including actual hateful stuff that is irrelevant to the vocal criticism and that's when stans latch onto those parts to claim bullying and reinforce that everything is just a hate train for Le Sserafim.
Theres just too many kids in kpop fandom man.. even the idols are kids. The thing is as the current kpop stans grow up, another wave of kids will join the fandom, causing it to "never mature"
Source Music's choices for title tracks are so bizarre for me lol. You have a group of 5 sopranos so why are they giving them these songs that have lower-pitched choruses when the girls themselves struggle to hit the notes simply because they're out of their vocal range and need editing to sound decent in the studio ver. (I'm talking about Fearless and Easy here lol). The girls aren't that vocally gifted either so it just makes their case worse. I'm not saying that the songs are the reason why Le Sserafim's vocals are bad, the girls need proper training, but having songs in their vocal range would definitely help, especially when they're going to be promoting and singing that song a ton.
IMO yunjin is the only one. Who can sing and has an excuse , she sounds good in every performance and is obviously the best singer
Yea, I mean having bad songs for them vocally could be another issue but hopefully that just means source music is providing that training to let me practice their vocals to a decent level
Calling Sakura a mezzo soprano is crazy because I would call her an alto. And that's being nice because she could hit alto notes back when she was in Japan. But now she can't even hit one note without straining. So, all in all, she HAS potential, but the capacity she has to hit mezzo soprano notes is just not true. Cause she's starting from zero (fixing pitch issues, breathing problems, her tone, and her lack of knowledge in rhythm).
@@anarecinos1590 I was talking about Kazuha being their mezzo lmao - Sakura's relaxed range seems to be in the Sopranoish area so I'm a bit confused by you calling her an Alto lol. She was in broadway predebut and could hit the higher notes no problem, and she still seems to be decent when doing the more higher pitched notes so idk LMAO. I always thought Sakura was a Soprano or possibly a Mezzo but not an Alto lol.
@@anarecinos1590 Alto is not a thing, Contralto is the proper term.Sakura is not a contralto she's a soprano. Contraltos are rare eg Cher and Ivete Sangalo (Brazil). They have deeper,richer voices.
idk i don’t hate her but i’d like her a lot more if she was more confident… like why did you continue to be a singer if you’re so insecure about your singing? it’s frustrating bc you know there’s so many talented girls out there
Defs a good point but she also thrived a lot during Iz*one. Plus Kpop isn't just always about vocals or we would see such a shift in the levels of success for many groups. Sakura brings something to Le Sserafim but it's not vocals which she just unfortunately hasn't been able to hide as well.
The misconception y’all have about idols is that y’all criticize them in one field and start calling them “dancers”, “singers”, or “rappers”. Even though in reality, they ARE PERFORMERS. So it’s not like she decided to continue “singing” because she actually just love performing and there’s a big difference between the 2. Are you guys act like there’s something that she can do about her vocals but if the company can’t give her between training and if her schedule is so packed that she doesn’t have the time to get a Vocal Coach or maybe the company won’t allow her to get a vocal coach y’all still get mad at Sakura and put all the blame on her.. I’m not denying anything but idk why y’all don’t understand that she is still qualified to be an idol even if she doesn’t have good vocals.
@@d4ze_22 in pd48 yes her aura dazzling and shining but after graduated akb48 or ended iz*one she looked old hybe want her cause her fame and many young fanatics in japan and china think she is a goddess, to me fraud scam blind hope for next gen that's sin
@@d4ze_22 Sure, that's your standard of idol. Honestly, there's no value for money to invest on idol who can barely do the minimum. It would be only wasting resources.
@@MyC-mw6mg "wasting resources" but lets be fr. Sakura is probably a big money maker for Hybe, given that she was already pretty popular pre-debut. Kpop does not encompass only singing and dancing, given that how marketable an idol is is a massive factor to success.
Yeah, I've noticed a lot of fans get defensive about people calling them out and instead deflecting to just saying "LSF is more successful than your faves" when that isnt the topic at hand. It's valid to call singers out for not being able to sing.
it's also important to note that this won't affect their popularity in any way. It's just some bad publicity is all, and there other kpop artists before LSF that can't sing that well either and still have maintained popularity. Because like it was said in this video, being an idol is about more than just your skills alone. That being said, I do prefer to stan groups that I know I can be proud of both their dance and vocal ability though.
This👏 I lost my touch to kpop in recent years. But LSF & new jeans pull me back. I was amazed by their performance it reminds me of bts. Every comeback they keep on growing. They dive in different genre with hardcore choreo. Just their end year performnace is enough for me to solidify my stance as a fan. I dont understannd the " encore obsession" but honestly its crystal clear that majority of "concern/ critism from this fans are just pure hate. It's kpop & lets be honest kpop stans are so toxic they are the reason why in recent years kpop culture is not fun anymore
@@noirnoironeyNew Jeans has no members who can’t sing. Only brainless people stan that trash.
Concern and criticism from fans?? are pure hate?? Really? I would have assumed it was just causal listeners. But yea, kpop culture kinda wild tbh. That's why I just vibe in my own corner and sometime peep into community from time to time to hear what's happening hahaha
@@cloudchungxiao same i kinda distance myself to the community & just vibe with the songs. Sometimes a little peek whats going on. I draw the line now when consuming kpop in general it makes me stress & hate the culture which is i dont want to since there is good & fun experience in kpop. 🥲yup there are those who pretend to show concern but its just a mask to downgrade a group. I understand critism is important but there are genuine & there are none genuine takes just to hate on a group. Like your vid, I appreciate it & I agree with your points. You have reasonable take which I respect.
@@noirnoironey New Jeans is the most talentless kpop group ever.
In my pov, they don't deserve any hate, but criticism must be allowed. It always depends on how you express this criticism and the skill of the critics is even worse than Sakura's encore stage (I love her so please don't stop reading).
While I'm talking about Sakura, I'm also talking about Kazuha and Eunchae. My favorite maknae just can't sing the way she would probably like to. She has such a great personality and then she stands on stage and delivers what we criticize. But I can't exempt Yunjin either. (WHAT?) I remember pd48 and thought she was excellent. Now I actually only like her for her solo stuff. I'm honestly not so sure about Chaewon. But the whole thing leads me to what others have already expressed. They desperately need better vocal coaches and their choreographers should be fired. What is kpop all about? Crazy performances? No, it's also about singing, like I was used to from Mamamoo, Apink and others. Hybe is actively destroying the k in kpop and is doing exactly what Bang Sihyuk announced, but not in the intended way. Others will follow suit and if YG also starts to give a sh*t about vocals and only concentrates on performances, then the time has come to consider whether kpop should be shelved. Sorry that's harsh but that's my opinion.
Edit: I'm not a YG stan but after SM is slowly becoming HYBE they are the only one who always deliver good vocals.
Kpop definitely involves singing but this generation has not necessarily put that into the forefront as a skill prominent throughout all groups. These recent kpop groups debuting has put more emphasis on performance and so that's probably why we aren't seeing many notable great vocalist. They're all atleast bare minimum passable focus or above and that's kinda is all that is needed per the trend of what's happening.
Not sure what this destroying k in kpop thing is but I could kinda see that with Le Sserafims new era.
I agree with you but you just answered your own question basically. From Hybe’s POV and a business POV, if only focusing on hard choreo and visuals is working for them and giving them the most music show wins since debut then why would they change this strategy? It’s working for them and just reflecting what people want in a girl group. The girls are only doing what they are told to focus on.. and it’s definitely not singing
They just had another terrible encore performance on the day you uploaded this
IMO yunjin is the only one. Who can sing and has an excuse , she sounds good in every performance and is obviously the best singer
Ohh really? damm, that's unfortunate
@@ItsAjaxMate nah she struggles to even sustain a C4
its bc its not in her range@@suhkawnit
@@mayne7377 C4 is in literally EVERYBODY’s range
Hybe just needs to give them songs that fits their tones and singing styles,and maybe make their songs a Charography that isn't that hard,in fearless The chorus you need to sing deep and singing deep for a long time while dancing is very hard and can damge your throat,in antifragile imo it's their only title truck that Easy for them to sing while dancing,even though The dance is hard but it's easy for them to sing these lines and it fits their singing style and tones,in unforgiven, it was honestly a bad day For sakura and kazhua and we don't know maybe their voices were off or it just their lines didn't fit them, ex. In the part kazhua get criticism in Unforgiven Yunjin sang too a few parts Before Kazhua,and it fits her voice,but not kazhua's. For perfect night it was amazing and fits their tones and singing styles,and easy has Hard Charography as well as antifragile but it 100% doesn't fit them. They should had keep the song to a different group.
The problem is that they have no style, they’re untrained and need help
Maybe I haven't seen where they get criticised for their vocals but I feel like most of their vocal issues get picked up when they are doing encore performances and so that doesn't necessarily require the idols to be doing the choreo. But yea, songs might not completely suit them but there would have been the whole lead up to the comebacks where they would have been vocally practicing their parts plus performing the songs on music shows too. Like surely that's a relatively decent amount of time to maybe not necessarily perfect those parts but at a decent standard. They are defs able to have a bad day but seems like most of the Easy wins have seen some kind of issue so that doesn't necessarily seem like just a bad day.
@@everythingsfinett3903they do have style. That is just hate. Hybe won’t give them songs that fit the group, and all the members can sing, as long as they’re given the right songs. even Sakura can sound so much better if she’s given songs that are suited for her
@@d4ze_22Sakura's situation goes beyond a confidence issue or a skill issue. Her vocal chords are likely damaged from years of bad technique which I feel like in this situation she should've done what's best for her voice and let it rest properly.
@@mangovasco3296 yes I also think that too because she never got proper training, especially when she was a Japanese idol. Tbh even her just speaking Korean sounds very shaky and I think that’s because when you’re singing or speaking in different languages it can impact your voice. And the fact that people are hating and covering it up as criticism isn’t helping.
I'm standing on valid criticism. At this point, whether it's an encore stage or an actual performance, fans and casual listeners or audiences expect performers and artists to dance and/or sing properly. And yes, it's part of their jobs. Do they have to be superb or on par with many leading vocalists of their generation? Not necessarily. But we do expect a level of professionalism not just from the girls, but for every performer on stage. We can't be delusional and say they've greatly improved. If anything, HYBE and SoMu should see this as a very clear sign that the group, despite what they want us to think and accept, must improve their vocal skills. I know the girls work hard, but if this isn't something addressed soon, they might lose fans who are more into the music they produce rather than aesthetic that the group prides itself in. I sincerely believe they can improve. I just don't understand why this isn't something their company's fixing to the utmost (then again I don't know what goes behind the scenes in reality, so I'll leave that open for discussion).
Now about the bullying aspect, we should be wary that the Kpop world is not immune to actual harassment. The problem we have right now is that since the internet does offer a lot of anonymity, filtering truth from lies usually requires each and every one of us to be very critical and be willing to the work to find the truth. It's absolutely easy to spread so much hateful commentary to any group nowadays that fans have to fight off these so-called trolls and call out the company to do something about it. It's nice that fans do this, but this is where we should put our critical thinking into. When one reads a comment on the internet and sees for themselves the reality of that comment, are you compelled to say that this person simply hates someone you admire, or do you agree with the opinion because of the evidence shown? Of course no one should be subjected to bullying, including the girls themselves, but one cannot ignore the obvious flaw. In LSF's case, from Fearless to Unforgiven, there have been stages that have unfortunately set them up for such criticism.
Ohh for sure. The anonymity allows people to both hate but also speak freely without much consideration of how they convey themselves. The most unfiltered and potentially rawest thoughts. Force all of us to have our information out there when commenting and I feel like the discussion would be more productive and proper. However, with this state of the community, the lines blur so heavily in how we see negative opinions on their encore and whether it's criticism or hate.
The problem isn’t even the criticism it’s the fact that some people will go out of their way to insult Le SSERAFIM mainly Kkura of kinds of things and then proceed to say "(No hate this is just constructive criticism)" like girl you ain’t fooling anybody
Yea, I'm seeing two issues when criticism is made. Firstly, when they bring about other stuff that is not vocal related, then that just become a little murky in why you're bring other things up when the main focus is on vocals. The second thing is how people say it because sometimes the messaging is that she needs to improve her vocals but the pharasing sounds really harsh that the phrasing outweighs the messaging and so it blurs the whole constructive criticism to hate feelings.
i think bullying and criticism don’t have to me mutually exclusive because different people are giving opinions. the criticism can be valid but also go too far into bullying. it just depends on who’s saying it, and their intentions.
there’s totally people who have just given criticism, even people who have seemed concerned for the girls and their training, so it sucks that all of them get shut down as hate because of the people who are just bullying.
Ohh for sure. There is genuine concern about getting the training they need to improve their vocals. However, it's been a noticeable pattern for a bit more devoted fans to deflect all these concerns for the bullying type of hate which then deflects from the root problem. But in saying that, there is also a weird amount of people being a bit too devoted in speaking beyond the problem and instead start talking about whatever to actually bully these idols so it's like nothing productive happens besides the toxicity of kpop intensifying
there is some criticism which is understandable but there is some that is just straight up hate which is not cool
Ohh for sure. The line between hate and criticism gets so blurry with the way the kpop community has become.
😅 I think of they continue to sing in a mediocre manner the agency should be contacted, because this is their responsibility. The girls might be overworked and have no time to still attend training classes.
It is cold in Korea nowadays too and some idols I follow are talking about month long sore throats, so maybe they are just sick. And if they are sick, the agency should help them take care of themselves especially some of this groups members are young. People tend to overwork themselves when there is enormous pressure, so this might be affecting them too.
That's the only thing about kpop though. Kpop idols encompasses more than just having the complete skills and so not sure how dedicated some companies might be in wanting to improve idols skill levels before debuting them or even continuously improving their skills when they are already making money for them.
I think the girls CAN sing I think the girls can't perform AND sing at the same time nor follow up a choreo heavy song with strong vocals. They're clearly a group that highly priorities great performances and I thoroughly enjoy them but when having such heavy stage acts and choreo something is going to fall by the wayside and that is their vocal abilities.
The only thing with this is that the vocals being criticised was during an encore where dancing was not required. It was just their live vocals. But yea, performing and singing at the same time is difficult for most people
For Sakura, you can say what you want to her whether she sucks at singing or not talented enough.. But you cant deny that she can sell herself very well to the public and in my opinion thats the most important part of being in the industry... Likability is always the priority and Talent/Skills are only secondary since you can be the best singer/dancer in the world but will still fail if you cant sell.. There is a reason why JY Park always looks for "star power" when he's doing an audition..
As for the hate or criticism, it doesnt really matter whether can sing good enough for live or not as long as the public likes them.. BTS, TWICE and Blackpink are also heavily criticized for their live vocals and look at they are now being very successful..
This is exactly why the whole live vocal thing won't completely derail their success. It just will be a point of note for the "niche" (not sure how niche it really is) community of people who prefer live vocals to side eye them. This also doesn't take away from the fact they need vocal training but I can see the reasons as to why they might not get it since they're still thriving even without it.
nah i do at least know black pink and bts can hold a note for the most part. lsm?? not sure. we’re not expecting flawless singing but girl sakura cant even sing a note. i genuinely thinks she is tone deaf.
As a fearnot, obviously I know that their vocal needs some improvement.
We are open to constructive criticism.
But whenever we are just trying to praise our girls for their great performance or improvement, some toxic stans just respond with hate or bullying comments.
Like just leave us and our girls alone okay??
Yea, the hate can be annoying for sure. However, it seems to be a common issue with Kpop stans in this newer generation unfortunately. There is no idol that is immune from being randomly hated on even for the smallest reasons. Not saying that's okay but either more needs to be done to change the community or it's something that has to be kinda accepted but maybe ignored
I hate how people just straight up hate without even clearly stating the problem, plus kkura overthinks a lot and looked really nervous in that encore. she probably alr knew haters would hate her straight away
@@mayne7377tell her to improve her vocal then
@@bellearena000 iirc shes said she gets vocal lessons
@@cowbearrie she said she has RECENTLY taken her FIRST vocal lesson in 10 years......
2:45 - 2:54 thank you! Sick and tired of some fans saying we’re all just bullying or ‘haters’.
No you just don’t like what we are saying which is the truth to some extent. No one is asking all the members to sound like main vocalist, we are expecting them to sound at least decent or even close to the studio version of their own song but they literally fail to do that. Sometimes I really wonder what Source music was thinking.
Actually I do, they cared more about the popularity of some members then skills, Source kinda set them up.
I love each member individually and I think their chemistry as a group is the best among A LOT of groups but realistically if their company cared about having good vocalists then the Le Ssearfim line up would have been much different. It’s crazy to only have 2 good vocalists in a 5 member group cuz the flaws get easily seen.
Just got back from a fan who called me a b word because I said criticism is different from hating 😂
Yea, they've already got a solid foundation within the industry. Improving their vocal abilities would just continue to elevate the group even more.
I don't judge them too harshly because honestly not many top groups are good at vocals barring nmixx and aespa. The current trend is very simple talk singing songs and the groups are doing the best with what they have. Fans are also making them hits and I don't see the point of shitting on one group when all of them aren't stable live.
Yea, that is kinda another thing. Most group nowadays have a few members that are pretty decent vocally but like the rest are relatively okay to me but maybe just not that great to others. When you say "all of them aren't stable" are you refering to Le Sserafim or just the trend of groups these days?
@@cloudchungxiao I'm talking about all groups in general. So many big groups with major songs and music show wins have had lipsync, bad encore or live performance scandals.
I have to disagree. Although new jeans, ive and g idle aren't as vocally advanced as aespa and nmixx. They still manage to sound good during encore.
@@sowhat1674I agree the groups you named had lip sync scandals as well and 2-3 bad encores but improved their vocals Le Sserafim did not
@amorelockster1023 I don't think lip sync is a bad thing. Groups can lip sync when it's needed, but they should also be able to sing live. Wonyoung and leeseo might have a bad rep from lip syncing, but that doesn't change that they have some really good vocal moments.
The irony of how there are countless examples of how fans dont prioritize vocal abilities in idols (see survival shows like izone, girls planet, my teenage girl) and instead care about visuals. But here we have a prime example of idols not singing their best and everyones crying about how idols cant sing 🙄😒
Personally, I think it'll blow over by their next comeback. They have a big enough fanbase that will support them. Look at Twice, they went through something similar and hardly anyone hangs onto their infamous encore performance.
Survival shows are a perfect example of this. When assessing the final debut line up for most shows; those same idols would not all be ranked high up in overall skills. That's why there is some justifiable criticism to the lack of skill because it is relatively true to an extent. However, if they also don't accept the fact vocal skills is not the only factor of consideration to success then that's a whole other thing.
As for impact towards the group; I think they'll still continue to be popular. It's just more of an ammunition for antis particularly. Then everyone else will not necessarily care unless they have another relatively noticeable questionable encore performance.
I am a fearnot and I think the hate train is way too harsh. I was one of the people who were not really a fan of Sakura during PD48. Not that I hated her, it's just that I prefered other japanese trainees. But since then, I became a fan of her in Iz*One and Le Sserafim (she even became my bias wrecker in Le Sserafim). And I knew she had like a poor vocal training and abilities but I watched some of her performances throughout her carreer where she shocked me. During her days in Japan, I watched her sing a ballad live, calm and soothing. And it was amazing.
Sakura's voice is more suited for ballads, calm songs like Impurities or Swan Song for example. This is where her voice shines. You can't ask an idol to be perfect in every song. A lot of artist shine in a very specific genre but are lacking in other genres. Plus, the fact that she is getting hate constantly for this doesn't help. I mean imagine : You are an idol who gets hate from everyone for your voice. You have to perform in this stages and then sit for hours because lots of groups perform. And at the end of the show, when you are tired and wanna go home. You are exhausted. But your team wins. You are happy for your team but at the same time you are afraid because you have to sing in this encore stage knowing people will insult you. You are already tired and stressed. You feel very emotional because you just won and still you're afraid of criticism. This gets to your head and you self sabotage yourself because of this. Sakura's worst ennemy is herself. She's an overthinker.
I do think that she is lacking vocally compared to other groups or even the other members in her group but it does not change the fact that she is amazing in Le Sserafim. And she makes it up with all of her other qualities and talents. And I can proudly say that she has improved a lot since her PD48 days and I love how she sounds during the stages. What I'm disappointed in is that people judge her (or them) though ONE encore stage. Maybe two. But there are encore stages where Le Sserafim were decent, or even good. But the antis just like to spread hate like a disease because "it's fun to bring down groups that are not my faves". Do I think this encore stage was bad ? Yes. Do I wanna give them hate for that ? No, because I'm a decent human being and I know you can't be perfect everytime.
You brought up a lot of good points for sure. I think if we get down to the root of the situation of does she maybe require more vocal training; then it's a simple valid criticism that now we just hope source music would action. However, from what I see both sides just kinda redirect the discussions to different areas or places where nothing productives comes out of anyone commenting anything because we don't focus on the root problem.
THIS!
@@cloudchungxiao I absolutely think that Source Music should change like 2 or 3 hours everyday from their choreo/dance classes to vocal coaching. I don't know if it applies to Le Sserafim but I watched an interview where an idol said that usually trainees, the WHOLE afternoon until they go to sleep at 2 o 3 in the morning, they rehearse choreo. I do think that 2 or 3 hours in the afternoons should be dedicated to vocals.
yeah 😭😭😭 they def need improvements in the vocal department, but i absolutely hate how criticism in the kpop world so easily turns into a hate train. the fact that kkura has said that she’d purposely request for lesser lines in songs and hesitates going into the recording room to record her parts just breaks me :’) She’s not the best vocally, def needs a better singing technique, but it just pains me to see such a nice girl get so much hate 😭.
Yea, this newer generation is very dance/performance focused and so that would lowkey be dope if kpop groups in the newer gen got more time to vocally train.
i think the annoyance of k fans is totally justified even korean fearnots were pissed and i can understand why ...how come they sound beautiful in studio version but sound like this live ...im just saying from what i read their korean fans are frustrated cause they have no way to defend their live performances bc they sound unrecognizable from the studio version i dont think is fair for them...is fine if your fanbase is loyal to you no matter what but i think idols should at the very least put on a good performance to repay fans for their unwavering love and support.. even if they dont expect anything in return from their idol they want them to do well ...at least so they dont get hated on i empathize w the worries of their fans but i think people that come for anything other than their live performances and start bodyshaming and saying nasty things w no relation to the discussion are just haters ...most people have serious concern and mainly just want them to perform at the level of their success which i dont think is that crazy to ask for
Defs get what you mean. That last part is what blurs the whole hate vs criticism because it usually starts with valid criticism before random things get lumped into the discussion. However the whole repaying fans thing kinda is throwing me off a little just because that's heading into a weird level of entitlement for fans to expect more than they should be having like not dating people. Considering the hypocrisy of kpop fans as well as the current state of the kpop industry, the group's vocal ability have been able to pass for two years now and are likely to continue to pass even if Source Music doesn't do anything. However, this doesn't mean that their vocals are good and don't require training.
Both (mostly valid)
I think so too
they're still really popular and doing well, so unfortunately they'll probably continue to have the same level of vocals and not get any lessons to improve. at the end of the day kpop fans just have really low standards nowadays for vocals and are satisfied with just catchy repetitive songs
I mean Kpop encompasses many aspects for sure and so that's why there is no level of skill that is required to be an idol. Especially in the newer generation, there is a greater emphasis on performance which for the most part can hide a lot considering it is the most overall encompassing skill if that makes sense.
Sakura has been getting hate for a long time and it obviously hurts her, but she'll be OK, they're doing great, she plays a very important role in le sserafim and if people think it's only about vocal ability then they're very new to kpop and don't understand how groups work
Exactly, Kpop encompasses way more than vocals. Yes, her vocals are a problem that she should work on but this doesn't mean she doesn't bring anything too.
even the least talented members in groups of the past could hold a note and sing decently while standing still. kpop is just degrading in quality because fans have such low standards
I honestly feel that real criticism and respectful discussion is almost impossible when it comes to k-pop spaces. Fans are typically so emotionally attached to idols (no matter if it’s endearing or hateful) that it just stunts any proper discussion. It’s discouraging idols to be able to develop their talents as artists. On another note when it comes to hybe’s management of artists they mainly focus on dancing and the trendy sound. Due to groups’ success they will probably continue with this model and might completely ignore the issue about vocals. If it’s a matter of public reputation they’ll just shift the publics perspective with news outlets, other forms of media, and eventually people will forget about it. At the end of the day the group is a business investment and if it’s continuing to making money they have no reason to change this. In saying all this constructive criticism doesn’t have power in the world of k-pop . While it’s completely reasonable to argue whether something is criticism or hateful, the fact of the matter is that it will always snowball into hate with the parasitical relationship within fan bases. In the case of this video I appreciate your take on the matter and I agree with a lot of your points. I completely agree with your take on vocals in the industry, however down to answering if the general discussion happening around the vocals is bullying or criticism I hate to say that it’s generally always going to be bullying.
Key note: general and majority of discussion that happens, crucial discussions like this one is a rarity that is excellent and gave great points, I appreciate it!
Yesss, emotional attachment is such a big thing. That attachment changes the perception of criticism into almost a "life and death" of trying to defend their favs by resorting to anything (even the lowest of lows) to combat them from continuing to speak on them.
And yea, I agree that nothing is likely to change from this. The discussions of vocals have been had before this era and the fact that not much has changed and yet Le Sserafim are still thriving; there is little business reason to increase additional costs when they are thriving as is. To me, I did notice that Korean audiences were involved in creating disucssions too so that could potentially change something. However, would they also just be a small minority of criticism to the overwhelming success of the new comeback.
I'm still new to KBS and MNet shows. How does the encore's work? Does the group not know if they're doing the encore unless they win? If that's true, then I understand how encores can show if a group can do live for real - they don't 'know' they're going to win until they do, and we get what we get. I do hope the management of Hybe gets them training / cardio / all the things. They do look good when it all comes together. Hybe/Source needs to stop depending on tracks so much and get the young ladies trained up properly.
I think you can relatively predict who wins each show but probs never too sure. But yea, it relatively feels like the bare minimum to know how to sing at a basic level for one encore performance each day assuming you win the whole week so it would be good if they apportioned more of their time to vocal training compared with performance training.
I think it is bullying.
The exertion of dancing and singing at the same time is difficult to do. Vocals will more than likely be off. That's the fact.
Now if the fans wish to hear them sing live, then the group needs to stop the dancing and focus on the vocals. I prefer the dance moves and the vocals can take a back seat during live performances. I like Le Sserafim.
The fans can always make Le Sserafim go away by not buying their albums and merchandise.
Is this what the fans want?
I've recently come across Le Sserafim with Perfect Night, and then Unforgiven. I do love their new material and their stage performances are FANTASTIC. Who doesn't love their dance moves? Singing can stay in the studio.
If I'm not mistaken, other k-pop groups have this problem too.
The criticism mostly being given relates to encore where dancing was not required and not necessarily done for the most part. I don't think the point of the criticism was to make Le Sserafim go away completely. It was more of point to help them improve their skills to comeback even stronger.
I love that song in the intro! What’s the name of it?
It’s a sped up version of Bad News by Kiss of Life
@@O.O_9 Thank you so much!!
It's a really good song :)
@@cloudchungxiao It really is! I love all the crazy high notes, gives me life lol 😂❤️
I hope it will force Yunjin and Chaewon to do better because these two can actually sing but put absolutly no effort in this and shounded awful, they can do way better than that. The other 3 can’t sing, I think Sakura will never be able to sing, Kazuha should focus on rap, Eunchae has potential
I mean hopefully this is just taken into consideration in preparation for their next comeback.
As a fearnot and sakura bias, this situation frustrates me so much. The girls have been receiving a massive amount of hate from the general public and kpop fans. But it's not criticism, it's pure hatred and jeaulosy. I can accept criticism bc the truth is that the girls don't have the best vocals and they should improve. But most people excuse themselves saying they are just criticizing them but they just want to hate on them.
I blame fully the company on this situation, first they should give them proper training, they should help them gain confidence in their live singing, they should stop using autotune in their songs bc it makes it impossible to compare their real vocals to the heavy edited autotuned songs. They should find songs that highlight their real vocal tones. I know for a fact that the girls can get better, but the constant hate train and lack of support of their company it's just dragging them down.
I know they are not going to stop getting hate till they improve. That's why I can't understand why source music doesn't make an effort to help the girls. They train constantly in dancing and performing, why don't they make the same effort in singing?
They can't enjoy their winning encores bc they know they going to get hate for their singing abilities, their confidence is declining and their overall reputation is also declining.
source music should give them a well deserved break and good singing lessons asap.
No they really have not. You take a few comments that are out of line and blow that up and say they get "a massive amount of hate" when what they are getting 98% of it is valid and legit criticism. You as a fan don't seem to be able to take emotion out of your perspective. It was a terrible encore. There is no way you can say it was good and be taken seriously. You also can't dismiss every time someone says it was bad just because one or two people said it was bad in a mean way.
I think you forgor to mention that they also get a massive amount of babying lmao.
@@incheonguy You take a few comments that are out of line and blow that up and say they get "a massive amount of hate"
I don't know where are you see only "a few" comments but they get tons of hate literally for everything they are doing right now and it's not only about "a few" comments. It's the same like with IVE the past years. These people should touch some gras.
@@ayanobadass949 LOOL, for real!! The way the fandom are babying the girls and sugarcoating the bad vocals..
@@incheonguy what do you know about the hate they get? I am a fan of them, I watch their videos and see the comments on UA-cam, I spend time on twitter and see the amount of hate twts with thousand of likes calling them ugly, sluts, untalented, not deserving of their fame. It's so funny to me that people always discredit and bully them, but if us THE FANS say something and defend that means we are babying them. I SAID in my comment that they SHOULD get better. In what part am I babying them? It's wrong that I defend them? You are all hypocrites who constantly yap about us exaggerating about the hate train. Have you read all the comments they receive in pannchoa? Have you seen the amount of tabloids hating on them there are? Have you seen the amount of likes a hate twt gets? Have you seen the comments in every single video they released? I don't think so. So don't speak when you don't know shit, stupid b1tch.
Idc who doesn’t wanna hear this but after 3 years these girls shouldn’t sound that bad especially when their just standing around! This is why my fave vocalists come from SM! Their main priority for their artists is the vocals! Taeyon Wendy and NingNing could NEVER sound as bad as these girls even on their worst days! These HYBE girlies are on the bottom tier when it comes to vocals!
Ohh for sure that SM prioritizes Vocals. However, that isn't the only thing that matters in kpop so that's why we can see variations in different vocal abilities. I mean also HYBE seems to prioritise performance more which is something that people may not usually think about with the SM vocalist's respective groups that you have mentioned. The vocals are just not quite their for Le Sserafim but it's not a complete gg for them
@@cloudchungxiao I don’t care about visuals or how they look on stage. If an idol cant sing then what’s the point honestly. SM artists might not be as popular as HYBE artists but they definitely are more talented. Le Sserafim ain’t a new group so they shouldn’t be sounding this bad honestly.
@@cloudchungxiao SM prioritize singing more than dancing because dance can be learned whilst bad singing is unredeemable. Logically, why would anybody pay to listen idols who cannot sing? I can also pay back up dancers dancing to the idols music and enjoy their performance.
I mean most performances during promotional periods that we will see from idols will be lip synched or the backing track will be really loud that you can barely hear them singing live. Those few seconds when you think you can hear them live; I'm not sure whether that would be consider a worth to pay for that. Not to mention the recent Live AR trend which pre-records live vocals to make it seem like they're singing live. I mean Kpop is really is all about selling the image of perfection. But yea, everyone has their own preference in what they look for in groups. It's all about finding the right groups to match your style.
i think also the problem was that for their next encore stage they used autotune, also hybe loves to upload performances saying their a live when its so obvious it's not, i would say as a group vocally they have not improved at all and i blame their company for that considering the majority of the group couldn't even sing when they debuted why are you not giving them the training they need, i think nowadays is getting popular again to spot who is singing live and who's not and personally i lovee how not perfect live vocals sound so it's a shame that a group can't sing to their own songs, so if i want to hear a group that can dance and sing live i go and watch jyp groups you would always find a real live performance from them
Live AR is getting so dangerous with how catfishy it is. But yea, that's the thing with Kpop though; it's not just one certain skill that is needed. It's a whole package with the a vague star quality vibe that makes kpop think you are ready. There isn't even consistency and it's all relative so that's why we can see a whole spectrum of different idols with different skill levels.
Both. Some of it is bullying because of HOW they offered the criticism. MOST of it is valid. Fans overreact to anything negative. So if a few people went about it in a mean way, they focus on that to dismiss all the people who made legit criticism of what was genuinely a terrible encore performance.
Yea, that's one thing that I've been noticing a lot more. Valid criticism gets deflected way too much for certains fans that like to deflect on the hate that doesn't bring anything to the discussion. Thought this was kinda a perfect example to bring this idea into.
Wow first time hearing calling the group that way.
Hahaha how do you say it?
@@cloudchungxiao I alwasy heard it as -fem not fim
Ohh really? hahaha maybe it's just a me thing because they both lowkey sound right to me now
@@cloudchungxiao nah it all good it still works. I just never heard it before
look, i've loved lsrfm since their concept and debut, so that's why it pains me to see the regression they've had. as a singer myself, i can sing every title track of theirs while doing jumping jacks or even burpees, and not sound as bad and tone deaf as they do while standing still. it's maddening bc you can see they're talented and hard workers, yet can't spare even 30 minutes a day for vocal lessons?? nah get out of here.
and now that they're going to FREAKING COACHELLA??? what will they do??? i have very mixed feelings for them, bc atp in their careers and being under HYBE each of them could definitely schedule outside vocal coaches if the company won't provide them one, yet they'd rather go on variety shows or do tiktok dances. i think what bothers me most is the lack of self awareness that they truly sound bad, and the non-action in improving, specially for sakura, kazuha and eunchae. the mediocrity in such a fundamental part of the idol life is what's driving me away from them.
Yea, I remembered they were doing Coachella and literally searched up to "lip syncing" + "coachella" For some reason, I thought it was all supposed to be live but nah, there are a lot of performer who lip sync so not too big of a problem for Le Sserafim in Coachella. Plus they could also use live AR too since there main focus would be on the performance aspect. But yea, the non-action is throwing me off if nothing is done because it's been clocked and will be a point of contention when we see them each comeback.
its so annoying on both sides. no, saying they need to improve isnt hate: its truth. no, le sserafim arent 100% untalented and deserve to disband like (some) people are saying. i've noticed that there was kind of a eunchae hate train (and by hate train i mean fearnot said it was a hate train but it was a loud minority) and now with their vocals being criticised more people are coming for eunchae. i'm not deaf, they need to improve and hybe (source music) need to get them coaches and START HAVING SONGS THAT ARE BEST FOR THEIR VOCALS. like its either improve vocals or tone down dance so much that it's impossible for them to sound unstable or bad.
There was an eunchae hate train? I swear everyone has been trying to protect her plus using her as the "perfect maknae" to put down other idols. But yea, people seem to go to the extremes when there can be a middle ground of understanding that they are a great group but there is still work to be done despite having debuted.
9:36 that’s not “attempted redemption arc” that’s “intentional mistranslation”
That's definitely something I will tackle but will probably need more time to look into more of it before I upload that video
The point on perfection is true! Their song is called easy and they even sing how they make it look easy, but they struggle to sing live well. Even for a song that’s easy to sing (not vocally demanding). I feel the companies only care for looks and dancers in k pop. Not vocalists. I’m glad we have that though in kiss of life and nmixx. Also I’m also glad newjeans are improving. They have people who are good but are putting effort to get better. This group needs to do the same. But the hate shouldn’t be this huge. It’s not going to help anyone.
Yea, I mean NJ are under the same parent company so hopefully HYBE makes this a focal point to further justify the success of their groups. Even if we allocate a small portion of their performance based training to vocal training; that'll do a lot.
I know this is unpopular but I don’t care about live vocals at the end of the day I’m streaming the tuned versions of songs and watching dances to me is far more fun then hearing someone sing
Exactly, K-pop has become more than just live vocals so it honestly would significantly impact them but it's just really only like a side eye.
I rather pay AI to sing rather than any idols who sing beyond mediocre.
Sakura illustrates why companies are unwilling to debut older idols.
The biggest hurdle for Sakura is breaking her vocal habits she developed from being in HKT48. It seems like AKB48 has a different style of singing, and Sakura adopted it after spending over 10 years in HKT48. In Produce 48 and Iz*one, she received no vocal training and sang with that style the whole time. When she got into Hybe, she got vocal training, but it's hard to break her previous habits from being in AKB48/Iz*one.
While it is possible (Juri from rocket punch for example), breaking a habit you had for over 10 years is hard. For an ordinary company, they would rather not spend the resources to train a 24 year old vs a 14 year old.
Idk if Sakura is a good example of that because they technically debuted her. Plus if the older idols were training this whole time in Korea then their vocal habits wouldn't really be a problem. Your point might be more debuting idols with experience in another foreign country's music industry.
jpop isnt really vocal based which makes sense. its mainly dancing energetically and being pretty/cute.
@@cloudchungxiao When I was watching produce 48 the japanese contestants had visibly different vocal tones than the korean contestants, which works for j-pop but not really for k-pop. Sakura had the different tone and went with it throughout Iz*one and le sserafim and never really changed it.
On the other side, there isn't that much excuse for Sakura to continue singing like that. Juri from Rocket Punch had the J-pop voice throughout produce 48, but she immediately learned the k-pop way of singing when she debuted in rocket punch. And it only took a few months.
Hybe should've trained Sakura's vocals more to at least sing the K-pop way. Woolim did that, and they got more resources than Woolim. Plus, if they manage to train a ballerina to a hip hop dancer, why can't they train a j-pop singer to a k-pop singer?
Defs a good point. The only unfortunate-ish thing about HYBE is that they could be operating under a mentality of don't fix what's not broken and so if they continue to see so much success with Le Sserafim then they might think there's no issue and no further training that is required besides the standard things they have been doing. Hopefully that's not the case but apparently vocals have been a kinda issue within HYBE.
yeah jpop idols tend to have worse vocals than kpop. maybe the bad singing technique has even destroyed her voice idk
IMO yunjin is the only one. Who can sing and has an excuse , she sounds good in every performance and is obviously the best singer
So you think none of the others have bare minimum kpop level of vocals besides Yunjin?
@@cloudchungxiao yup
@@ItsAjaxMatechaewon also😂
I disagree, in terms of stability, chaewon is one of the best.
I really think their causal singing is actually very well
Casual singing? Like when they're not in an environment where they have to try?
I feel like sometimes kpop stans want everyone to sound exactly the same. I honestly think some stans would say that a Japanese singer sounds "bad" just because Japanese sounds different from Korean or English. There are different ways to sing, not everyone has to sound like a Korean ost singer or a Western pop artist. I feel like Japanese members who had to learn Korean as a second language get criticism more because of how they talk. Sakura's voice "cracks" when she literally speaks Korean normally.
Not defending Sakura as she herself has stated that she doesn't feel like a skilled singer still, but just something I feel like kpop stans do to foreign members of groups, especially native Japanese speakers whose voices are literally different because they were raised speaking Japanese.
Yeah, it's the most obvious with Yoasobi and their song idol. She can sing (as can be seen in songs like raising into the night) but stylistically, it just fit the style the best
Defs an interesting point. Don't think I've noticed too much people talk about how foreign idols speak korean and it's influence in their different pronunciation but I think that just further adds to the need of being able to train their vocals and having the right parts.
There is actually no problem with them, they just got an award and excited when singing
Idk if it's just excitement in singing that created all this controversy
Kpop fans choose a target each generation. Let's not forget how awful most people were to Twice, saying they couldn't sing and didn't deserve to be idols. Criticism is very different to hate and harassment. It's also very EASY to just go on with yout life if you don't like a group. There are plenty ggs out there where you can choose from if you're looking specifically for vocals: Mamamoo, Purplekiss, etc. There are sooooo many groups that can fit the standards you like, there's no need to follow a group that doesn't just because it's popular.
So would you say you're on the side of, if you have anything negative to say then pivot elsewhere?
@@cloudchungxiao what I mean is there are many, many groups and people just look at the popular ones. If the popular group doesn't fit someone's standards it's ok to not stan them and look for others that do. If you do like the group and want to continue to stan, criticism is ok, without it being turned into hate.
Many people who talk about lesserafim specifically don't even Stan them so I truly don't understand why they care so much about their voices not sounding as they would think it's best.
(edit: K-pop Stans tend to be rude and hateful towards some groups and target them. As an example I said twice because that's what happened to them before and now people love them. Hate towards anyone isn't ok. I never said people should hate other groups, just that they should find a group that they like)
That editted point is defs accurate in the types of kpop stans that are prevalent. But kinda lost me when you said on stans should be the ones to give criticism. I mean I can even see both sides be biased in diff ways. Non-stans take this performance and value and think this is them the whole time when it clearly isn't. But then also stans will more likely justify it and give them leeway. WIthout people throwing out the idea of vocal improvements, I feel like most stans wouldn't even bring it up. To me, both are allowed to give criticism but it's just the way it's conveyed that should be focused to have a producitve discussion without getting to this toxic side.
@@cloudchungxiao I just don't know why would you go out of your way to criticize a group you don't even like in the first place. That's why I said that specifically. Why would I give attention to a group I don't think has the best skills? Idk, for me it's a waste of energy for something I don't enjoy. It's my own perspective and it may be different from yours and that's ok. We both agree criticism should be just that and not hate and tbh that's the important thing
I mean criticism is okay like you said; and can even help recognise improvements for groups or provide greater discussion regarding the state of kpop in several context. I feel like it's the contrast in the best neutral way to complimenting group in the sense of what's the purpose of complimenting groups if they won't see it. That could be seen as putting in too much energy for yourself because we don't know the extent of how much idols can see. Similar to that, criticism is something that just might not achieve anything because what is the impact of us trying to point out "feedback" to the groups to improve. Both are similar but also different in their own right.
it's bullying when these stupid people go to their profiles to say hurtful things, there's absolutely no reason to do that
Go to their profiles? As in their social media? I feel like a good chunk of the discourse comes from social media post between other social media users. There might be some that comment stuff on the actual socials for the idols but the ratio difference doesn't feel that small. Also, thoughts on when they only speak on the skills of the idols, like would that still be bullying to you?
@@cloudchungxiao yes, their ig accounts, check it out yourself and see if it's "constructive criticism"
Ohh there will always be those types of comments. I'm mostly refering to the idea of some that seem to tunnel vision. I mean the whole Coachella discourse has really intensified the discussions. But it seems like its a hard left or hard right for people.
Bullying
All forms of negativity though?
encore stage should not count as reference because of how 'music show' film (as the whole program) it's not provide the good state for artist. (some might did well but still should not count as standard)
'perfection is illusion', what even happen in that time & space already perfect. (in that condition)
what's 'bullying' ? like something that happen one time and keep appearing, that should count as 'bullying'.
what's idol in k-pop? can count as performer but real purpose is to be a guideline in hard working, dedicating to the job (also like 'be decent people') as guideline to all korean citizen, alongside with 'you can be better'. (so yes, they still learning after debut, same as SNSD that keep learn in stylist, acting, MCing. but why? because 'idol' not last, man idol mostly end after enlisted. so they need career after that.)
(sadly) but somehow, (some) people try to bring down other just to make them feel better, not ever consider that what they do actually harm other people. (and make toxic society)
but 'criticism' is need to do thing better, so how to separate 'criticism' from 'hate'?. simple 'criticism' should give hope, give a way to do thing better, that's it. (unlike 'hate' with just pure hate.)
just my opinion.
have a good day. :)
Encore are defs not the only gage for how good the artist for sure. I think it's the consistent encore abilities is when people start to maybe think differently in that it might become a slight representation of their abilities.
Perfection is defs an illusion and I think most people don't really expect that for any groups. I mean most songs require musical editing to enhance the songs. That's why very few songs will you see them singing and exactly sound completely studio. The only thing about that is that I don't think people expect singers to struggle that much with singing their songs and so that's kinda where it comes from.
But yea, separating criticism from hate seems to be hard to distinguish but is also why everything kinda overlaps. Instead of separate ideas, it all gets combined leading to both sides feeling their own feelings.
Wouldn’t call it either, just an opinion. Doesn’t matter anyway since you’re just a(n anti)fan if you hate them.
Are you calling me an anti fan or anyone that hates them an anti fan?
@@cloudchungxiao I’m calling haters anti fan; so if you don’t hate them, you’re not.
Ahh right. I mean yea haters are haters but I think the issue is more stemming from the idea of what is hate because anything negative is seemingly being treated as hate.
@@cloudchungxiao if you really don’t want to come across that way then you should be placing more pressure and accountability on the companies who put out idols as money makers who may not even make a dime from their work, yet they still want to put on a good show and make people happy. And as much as I still enjoy my girl groups, I have never looked at K-pop the same way since finishing that duology.
I mean there are very few decent companies with no issues. You can kinda find fault in most companies for the way they operate so idk if you would be abke to enjoy kpop like that if you felt black or white about companies for their practices.
I personally think why we are looking at Le Sserafim for vocals when it's obvious they're a performance based group like all HYBE groups/most Fourth gen groups. Yes they should be able to hold a note and the criticisms were valid, I think fans should face the reality of not getting those vocals they had back in 3rd gen and earlier gens back. And it's not really gonna hurt them in anyway they're not only a hybe group but also kpop moves on.
I think most newer gen are performance based groups tbh. It really just comes down to preference like how others might focus on other factors as to why they like certain groups. Those who like vocals just seem to be a bit disappointed in Le Sserafim's vocals but also it's not completely everyone feeling that sentiment and some don't mind.
What would idol perform without any vocals and music? Well, if it's performance based group even dancers can do it even better without singing. What's your point?
I feel like the industry norm in performing live vs loud backtrack or lipsyncing shows how kpop is kinda been content with the new direction of how kpop is operating. Not saying it's alright but we rarely get to hear live vocals constantly from a decent amount of groups thesedays and so it's kinda the standard that most companies will conform with in order to avoid clear lack in skills accusations. Just kinda my thoughts though
I really appreciate your take on Le Sserafim. I’m a very proud Fearnot and I know the girls can sing live very well. The encore is just a bad day. They definitely need to practice/ train so they have less issues but this doesn’t somehow equate to them being talentless. So thank you for not using your platform to jump on the hate train
Bad day? They always do the same shit in every encore they give. Its either they laugh with eachother to skip their lines, play with their in-ear or just dance. Idk what you on, even in their own live performances in different events they're still off key & always sound shaky. If a gg like nmixx exist where they have a heavy choreography but still managed to perform just fine then why can't they? Let's stop giving excuses because its clear that this girlies are lacking A LOT in the talent department.
Idk if it was a bad day just because it's been a relatively recurring issue in their encore performance. But yea, doesn't mean their talentless. I would say they do have talent to an extent because then they wouldn't be as popular as they are if they had completely no talent. It would be more like they lack certain skills or that just might not be strong enough. Idk if they would just immediately lead to lacking a lot of talent.
@@cloudchungxiao yeah I understand that. I meant it more in the context of this specific encore as the bad day not that it isn’t a reoccurring issue for them. That’s why I said they definitely need to practice / train more so this becomes less frequent. I thank you for responding to me respectfully and not insinuating I must be on something to have my opinion or use another group to put them down. Very much appreciated
@@potathottwit7604 this is exactly what I’m talking about, you are not giving any CRITICISM because what you’re saying right now isnt going to help the girls get better? Like at this point you’re literally just hating on them. And people like you always attack fearnots even though nobody is denying that they had bad vocals. Why are you attacking the OG commenter just because she said that they had a bad day. Was she lying??? nobody is even making excuses, which is the wild part, it really just seems like you’re making up fantasies in your head. and then you’re saying is that they’re lacking in their talent department just because they have shaky encores. you don’t seem to understand that being a K-pop idol is more than just vocals. and each member is qualified to be a K-pop idol. What other area is le Serrafim lacking in other than vocals??? They have sp, and the can dance. Stop acting like it’s the end of the world just because hybe can’t give them a proper training. you’re putting all the blame on the girls when they don’t even have the resources to improve.
@@potathottwit7604 you insult them and then bring nmixx to be praised like wtf dude? if you say they are lacking in talent department, i'l be you and also says that nmixx are lacking in relevance and popularity department.. you are just bringing hate and NOT criticism with your nonsense.
what i think abt this no hate to anyone this is just my opinion and what ik abt it (some of yall would say these r just invalid excuses but whatever a lot of these r facts go cry abt it if you cant accept it)
1. yunjin was a bit sick during the start of the promotion
2. the choreo has moves where you bounce your chest/torso up and down so its almost impossible to be stable
3. sakuras 10 years of experience is honestly whats making her have these vocals. she sang w wrong technique since her hkt days so vocal problems are hard to fix (i heard this from a yt vid idk if its true but i think it is and it makes sense)
4. its an encore and not expected to be perfect
5. they are probably shocked up bc they won over a big group like twice
6. idk this isnt my opinion but some ppl said they felt bad for winning bc twice is such a big group and that caused their vocals to be off from nervousness and possibly guilt
7. tbh the ppl saying haters r mad bc their favs r flopping is true imo bc it seems like any group that is doing well will be criticized for reasons that arent even that deep or problems that other groups clearly have too but they just dont point them out. Example: Itzy, blackpink, gidle, etc.
valid criticism does exist for sure, but theres ppl who just look at one vid of a bad performance from them and start hating brutally straight away when their favs either have the exact same problem or did really well but no one talks abt them
I alr know yall r gonna come at me but if yall have difference in opinions or r just mad that ur favs are underrated just ignore it its not worth ur time replying and not worth my time reading replies that im not gonna agree with.
Interesting.
1 - Yea, could be a leeway but it wasn't just Yunjin was a little off.
2 - I think most of people's discussion has been on the encore so we're not necessarily seeing them dance like that.
3 - Kinda just adds to why they need vocal training.
4 - I don't think people needed complete perfectionism. It was more that they were expecting them to be able to perform the song without trouble since it's relatively chill but they weren't able too.
5/6 - That sounds a little to farfetched as a reason to sing like that.
7. I mean vocal issues aren't an exclusive Le Sserafim issue; that's for sure. But just because other groups have those issues, doesn't mean Le Sserafim doesn't have it too. It's just they are currently in promotions and so that's why they are the main focus currently.
They are only getting hate because they are from hybe, nobody seems to care when itzy,ive,stray kids,blackpink,twice give vocally lackluster performances. Its the indication of lesserafim starting to get successful. There is the reason why taylor swift is more loved and successful than mariah carey,celine dion or whitney. Idgaf about vocals cause their songs are my cup of tea and they have entertaining personalities and good stage presence.
lol
are you joking? itzy are being clowned on (esp chaeryeong) for their singing, ive have been told they cant sing since debut, stray kids im not too sure about since im not a bg stan, blackpink are hated for every breath they take, twice have been called boring and momo has been a target when it comes to vocals
for real@@cowbearrie
Yea, those examples werent the best because all of them have been criticised for their vocals. As for your western examples, you kinda lost me because those are two clearly distinct generations too.
Y’all hating for no reason just because
So would you say all the vocal criticism is hate?
@@cloudchungxiao yes just look at the tone of the criticism. If people were eager to consume and enjoy what they deem good or superior vocals, than they would. They’re hate watching
@@ifyouknow2323 Vocals criticism is hate..are you that delusional?🤣
@@MyC-mw6mg criticism isn’t the same as hate stay in school lol
Besides the tone though, if you see the messaging behind the criticism; could you see where they are coming from? As for hate watching, the initial few watches could be interpreted as being shocked because of Le Sserafim's popularity and so you would expect to enjoy the performance because it relatively coincides with their popularity. However, the performance was seen as just not quite it and then they gave them a few more chances to see whether it was just one off. I feel like it's not really just all hate.
so telling the truth about a group now is considered bullying !!! like if they were actual good singer no one would dare utter a single thing , you don't see people talking about red velvet or aespa's singing abilities , because they can actually sing unlike this mess of a group
I think the idea of bullying comes from how people convey Le Sserafim's inability to sing well. The criticism starts to side track into some other unrelated issues and so there is that sprinkle of "hate" that turns the whole criticism into hate for certain people.
They r not a good vocalist but fans will eat up anything it’s sad. None of the hybe girls are talented vocally. Hype don’t care about. Oval on,y face and dance, best example is their illit girlgroup survival show where they eliminated the. Talented ones and had a prepicked group of visuals zzzzz
That's funny that you mentioned Illit because they are facing similar discourse for their vocals. But yea, the reason HYBE can focus on other aspects is because vocals make up a small portion of what fans may look for in their groups.
1 song divided among 5 members yet they struggle to sing it live while standing still? Thats... embarassing lol
People who seriously defend this are the perfect examples of people who are in a parasocial relationship with their idols.
I think there is definitely a bit of parasocialism that is in play for fans defending their idols. However, there is a bit of humanity too in terms of defending against hate. However, the term and examples of hate seem to vary which is where I see the most discourse coming from
Lesserafim is one of the most popular groups in KPOP now and Sakura is the most popular member of Lesserafim. It is irrelevant and idiotic for antis to pick at this group. If you want a lame group to nitpick go after Ive, with their drama queen princess that has atrocious idol skills and a million dollars worth of plastic surgery. As always, if you don't like a group, why listen to them? Why dog them? What is the point of it? How would it be if all of KPOP had only anti fans rather than fans? Why ruin a good thing with pointless anti crap? Should we analyze every group and find things to criticize? Some people have too much time on their hands to practice their obsessions.
"Oh no, we should not fight and nitpik on groups. It is not fair and mean. If we don't like them we should ignor them. We should all be happy and Smiley.
But on the other hand Ive these piece of ****. Oh they deserve it. These **** and ***. Ohh, people should go after them. And not my fav. Cause I don't like them."
Double standard much.....
So instead of defending your faves (lesserafim) you go after an innocent group which has nothing to do with this conversation (Ive)?? This is why no one likes fearnots
And you’re delusional to think lsrfm hasn’t had any plastic surgery either
@@hanmira
KPOP is KPOP. It is all the same conversation. I don't like the no talent princess that always demands the center in Ive and more recently has been playing the "poor me" act in front of the cameras. Nobody else in KPOP does this stupid stuff. Also I don't engage in fan wars as you seem to be doing. I have nothing against Ive fans.
L + ratio
@@KenAlbertsoncry about it