I Debated Japan's King of English in TWO Languages
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2021
- I debate @atsueigo, a Japanese UA-camr known for having spectacular English, about whether vocab books are helpful or not and the value of conscious study in language learning. To add a twist, we decided to both speak our native language (I spoke English; Atsu spoke Japanese). The result was interesting, to say the least.
Check out the video we did on Atsu's channel as well, where we both speak our foreign language: • 日本人とアメリカ人が言語をスワップして話して...
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今回は呼んでいただきありがとうございました！
Thanks for having me on, Matt!
Here’s the link to the first half of our convo where we did a language swap. Not gonna lie, I’m a little jealous of his Japanese.
ua-cam.com/video/rBJTaL_xXs4/v-deo.html
I just watched that video, your english is pretty good aye, like I heard your accent and though "sounds Australian" and then you said you worked in Australia, so I got respect for your language skills
I'm Australian so I thought you sounded amazingly neutral, but once you said (in the video on your channel) that you'd spent time in Australia, I did begin to notice your vowels were quite Australian. Your English level is AMAZING and very comfortable to listen to; it takes absolutely no effort at all to understand you.
I really like the premise behind your book. There are a TON of expressions and phrases we use all the time in English. That has to be the hardest part of getting past an intermediate comprehension level. Even "all the time" sounds like an expression haha. I would like a Japanese version of this book actually!
Krashen's "comprehensive input" theory is fine but I think there is a lack in the emphasis on production. I may be misremembering but I think he claims that the only real benefit of "output" for 2nd language learners is the "input" one gets in terms of the response from the native speaker. Obviously, there is a benefit from that in terms of correction or confirmation that one has used the appropriate speech etc. but he ignores the actual production as a necessary part of the acquisition process. That is, one has to pull from one's mind the words and phrases one needs to communicate and that takes some effort and focus, especially in the early stages of acquisition. Also, when learning a 2nd language one is constantly generating those newly learned words and phrases in order to retain them. For example, I would narrate simple tasks in my head, like doing the laundry or buying a train ticket, daily in order to not only "activate" my ability to produce what I had taken in as "comprehensive input", but in order to retain what I had learned through practice. It's like learning a musical instrument. You can have all the "comprehensive input" in the world, but if you never sit down in front of a piano and actually practice, then, as the line in Good Will Hunting goes, a piano will just be "a bunch of keys, three pedals and a box of wood". The point being in order to be able to "play", you have to actually "play".
@@gordonbgraham there is also the sheer muscle strength and dexterity in the right parts of your mouth to produce the sounds that are different from your native language(s). After a good pronunciation practice session for Korean, my mouth is so fatigued that I even stumble over and slur English a bit
My favorite thing about this video was where atsu was code switching when he found that he could express some things easier with English idioms than in his native Japanese. I think that was really fun and important to see
I struggle with borrowed words in Japanese. I always switch to very fluent english pronunciation confusing my Japanese friends
I find myself doing that a lot with Hindi and English. Though Hindi is my first language, when talking about complex concepts, say, in programming, I find myself having no option but to switch to English, at least for that phrase. And I feel like this is true for a lot of Indians, speakers of different Indian languages, not just Hindi.
Everyone who speaks at least two languages and we know we're gonna be understood do this 😅
It means that his japanese is not that fluent
@@PogMcDogborrowed words are harder to pronounce than the originals for me. I just say them in my best approximation of katakana speak so to say. Intuitively knowing exactly what katakana sound maps to what English sound is difficult.
It must've been a hell of a lot of work, I mean translating Japanese into English, and then putting subs in both languages.
This was so interesting and fun to watch!
A lot of work, but it probably wasn’t so hard for him.
@@doxo9597 Maybe, though I've heard that translating never really becomes super easy, because making a proper translation from one language to the other required more creative or logical thinking than just being able to understand the words being said for yourself.
@@doxo9597 Or maybe it was fun for them because they're both so good at both languages and because it was a novel and clever way to present the information. I suspect they both liked the challenge of it. They both did a great job.
You can say that again. Subbing is hard work and not much of it can be automated. This must have taken a lot of work. Lets share it.
私もそう思いだろうくらい、超面白い
自分が思っていることを的確に言語化するあつさんの能力凄いな
Atsuさんの動画から来ました日本人ですっっ
いつも英語で話してるのを聞き慣れちゃってるしAtsuさん本人も英語のほうが慣れてそうだから、今回日本語で話してるのがめちゃ違和感でした😂😂面白かったですっ！
マットさんおめめくりくり大きくてかっこよい…
Atsu is a great listener, you could really see him taking in what you're saying. A nice conversation indeed. I also think it's important to put time into all the different ways of learning. I see improvements in some aspects after putting time into others.
This was one of the most fascinating conversations about language learning I think I’ve listened to in years. I just wanted to say thank you both for sharing your thoughts, I’m definitely going to watch the other side of the conversation. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
Thanks for making lots of vids like this Matt. After light learning for a few years, you've managed to re-spark my desire completely to learn Japanese, and at the same time I've gained an interest in linguistics on their own through trying some of Krashen's books!
I can relate to Matt's method of learning a language, since i've mostly learned english and german by watching cartoons spoken in both languages and without subtitles. Sure, the grammar of these languages i've learned in school (english) and private lessons (german), but hearing them spoken and making logical connections by myself over and over again, was the most rewarding thing that i could've experienced, which kept me curious and made me push on when things got tough. Also, the way a sentence is structured in a different language helps you in developing a different point of view about things in life. It's amazing. Btw, i've landed here through the channel What I've Learned. :)
Mattさんが話すネイティブ英語がとってもスピーディで、びっくりしました！
日本語を話されている時は、穏やかにゆったりした話し方に感じたので😊
好きなものに熱中できるのって、すごく素敵ですね✨
I love this so much. I can relate to both of their methods because my "method" is to follow my whims, so i do both all the time lol. I've read so many heated arguments online about how either is horrible or that one should never learn from this or that, but when you both presented your reasoning, I was just blown away like I'd been finally understood. thank you for this video!
I totally agree. BC I approach it the same way. It's combination of both their ideas that
works.
After falling down the rabbit holes of Japanese English learning UA-cam and of course English Japanese learning UA-cam, this is so cool to see these very different teachers interact.
This was so informative and plain fun to watch! I taught ESL for three years and hearing this discussion in this format has my brain on fire in a good way. So well done!
I have never been to this channel before but I came after a Xiaoma collaboration with Matt, and when watching this video I was hit with my own preconception of language and accents because when Atsueigo spoke a full sentence in English at 9:18 I was expecting an American accent but instead it was an Australian one and that made me do a double take but it makes sense because he was just talking about idioms he heard in Australia, so an Australian accent should have been expected. This was such a cool video, I was just shocked by my own preconception of language and how it was not what I was expecting subconsciously because even though I was not really thinking of what Atsueigo's accent would be in English it was not Australian.
A cool vid I liked how y’all kept going back and forth in languages at will🔥
I've watched American drama series 1or2 times each part to study English,but some people say you have to watch at reast 3 times, but I realized that I hadn't mistake after heard your opinion. I've learned some expressions and I loved doing.
What is good is enjoying learning.
Thank you very much. You did great job to make these subtitles. ありがとうございました😊
素晴らしい議論でした！個人的には
12:07 からが特に興味深かったです。自分の学習にも取り入れていきます。
ドラマ1話を10回見て無理やり全部を理解するより、10話違うのを見て身の丈にあった感覚的に身につけられる部分を摘んだ方が理解の総量が多いっていうマットさん理論が自分には無かった考えだから勉強になった！😮
As a linguistics nut who also happens to want to learn Japanese, this stuff is the best type of comprehensible input. Awesome job on the subs, Matt!
とてもいい議論でした！
自分は英語をめちゃめちゃ練習してる訳では無いけど、伝えたいことが分かりやすく頭に入るし、とても価値がある話だと思いました！
Atsuさんの動画とマットさんの動画をみて、それぞれ第二言語がお上手でした！
I have long wanted a podcast like this. This structure where they each primarily speak their native language while being fluent in one anothers' is so wonderful, and the code switching for maximum expression is beautiful ❤️ I could listen to these two converse every day.
It's so interesting he mentions learning some key phrases in Australia, I picked up on a hint of an Aussie accent whenever he slipped into English!
He does have very strong Aussie accents still. He worked there for 7 years even though studied Generalized English for long time before going there.
@@mikiohirata9627 Yes as I have watched more of his content I am hearing it a lot more.
Omg this was super interesting!!
As a Japanese English learner, I have all those basic methods or logic that Atsu mentioned in this video, but at the same time I’ve shifted to the comprehension style you mentioned to get to where I’m currently at. So like I used to do adjusting things, but somehow I’ve got to the point where I just know it and don’t even know why.
Anyway this was really great video and I hope you guys have another debate sometime!!
I’ll try to sophisticate my theory about how to learn a second language efficiently haha
your english is good, and i mean this in the real nonfake way that japanese people say, great job
Some minor mistakes: "Anyway this was really great video" should be "Anyway this *a* was really great video"
"So like I used to do adjusting things" should be "So like I used to adjust things" or "I was constantly adjusting things"
"this was really great video" --- > "this was a really great video"
Yo Matt! Just letting you know, the link to Atsu's channel is the wrong link/broken in the description!
Also, big thanks to you and Atsu for this conversation! This was an awesome video; really insightful!!
I really enjoyed watching this video and opening up the comment section. Everyone here is very thorough with their comments and send respectful opinions about the video. I'm currently trying to switch my major into linguistics so watching this video really motivated and reminded me to continue my dreams to understand and learn new languages!
The best colabo regarding language learning. I've been following you both for quite a long time and I must say that.....
来た～！（ずっと楽しみにしていたのよ、ほんまや）
Interesting debate! My preferred method is towards Atsu when learning a language, but your method makes sense as well. I guess there's no perfect answer for everyone and that's the beauty of learning a language ;)
That was enjoyable! Also good immersion opportunity in both English and Japanese hehe
Je kiffe le concept !
Merci pour la vidéo :)
CAN YOU TWO PLEASE DO MORE COLLABS?? This is genuinely incredible and one of the most pleasing things to listen to
良いコラボでしたね！
どんなスタートや方法であれ、学んでいて楽しいかどうかが、結果に繋がるような気がします。
Refreshing the feed everyday waiting for the next video 😢
Same
I loved this debate! I really appreciated hearing the different perspectives. I left Japan at an upper intermediate N3 working on N2 level. It's been 5 years since I've gotten away from daily study and I am definitely lower N3 now. I've forgotten a lot of basic grammar and words are coming back to me as a study. But I was discouraged wondering if I should just start consuming a lot of content (I started listening to more music but couldn't do much more than that with my schedule) or just start ramping up the vocab and eventually fit in some grammar. I settled on the latter but was doubting it was enough. I think I appreciated hearing that there is more than one way to approach it. I think I definitely need a period of time where I am just loading down on the "analytical" stuff again. It gave me permission to continue that way and just make sure to stop and analyze along the way what phase I am in and what my needs are at that point. Maybe that was confusing, but I just appreciated both views! It helped me better understand where I'm at and what I need, because language learning can be so ambiguous... especially when you are self-studying between N3 and N2 in Japanese lol. That huuugggeee gap. xD
Thanks for sharing Morgan:D
I started studying Japanese again about 3 months ago after taking a break from my studies for about 3 years after college and this time around I'm increasing my listening comprehension by quite a bit and I find my spoken pronunciation and ability to listen and pick up on fluent Japanese to be way better than before. I still have a lonnnngggg way to go but I feel ownership over my study method and so glad to not be in the class room anymore. Finding your ideal study method is critical cause everyone is different and thinks different. Glad you're back at it 頑張れ！
英語と中国語を学んでますが私もアウトプットよりインプット派です。
mattさんの日本語が他の外国人と比べてイントネーションも自然で語彙力豊富なところとか見るとインプットの大切さを証明してくれてますね
まじでそうですね～僕も外国人だけど、ひたすら毎日日本語UA-cam見たり、ラノベ読んだりしてたら、一年ぐらいでほぼ初心者から日本語最高級のＮ1取れました。
わざわざ大学で日本語を専門で学んだ人達をみても、ダントツに優秀な人じゃないとわりと全然できてない人達もたくさんいるので、別に自分は特に賢いなどはないなと分かっている以上、インプット派信者になるしかありませんね。。。
In the end, language acquisition is a comprehensive process.
You can't imagine how useful your videos are for me. I'm French and teaching English in France, constantly wondering what's the good equilibrium to teach to a crowd with huge disparities in interest and abilities.
As for my personal experience I guess I agree with you both. The intuitivity is a huge part to aim for fluency. But the academic work is still much needed to feed your brain to level up IRL.
In any case, I'm not sure you really get to choose when to get intuitive vs academic once you start talking to natives / travelling. Sometimes you're in an academic kind of learning and you suddenly get confronted to reality and real practice and you don't have a choice. Either way I love both and in the end, it probably is the "intuitive" part of the learning that follows you for the rest of your life.
I've seen a lot of your videos now and I've got to say - your Japanese is perfect. I showed the VR Chat videos of you to my Japanese friend Kentaro, and he said 'Oh, that guy must have been raised in Japan', and when I said you weren't, Kentaro responded with 'Well then he must be half Japanese', and he couldn't believe it when I said you had studied and learnt Japanese from the ground up.
Both of these approaches are very interesting. Atsu’s formulaic and foundational approach appeals to the part of me that has always been captivated by the etymology of words. As a native English speaker you come across words from so many different root languages but they are comprised of words you might have heard components of which aids in comprehension, I wonder if the same is true for Asian languages.
I was just thinking about your channel. Nice
Been lagging on my anki reps, came back for some motivation, LET FUCKING GO!!
Thank you so much for pushing your theory " massive imersion" !! Your theory is a literally game-changer for me. I am a Japanese having been living in Chaina and Taiwan for ten years. I have been persuing to mater English and Manderin. After knowing your channel my attitude to aquire foreign lungauge has been dramatically changed. I really appreciate your peresence !! I would like to demonstrate your theory is correct by becoming a fluent English speakers !
とても面白かったです。こういうやり方で語学の様々な側面について論じたら、本当に面白いし、勉強になりそうだと思いました。
Atsu had an aim which is living and working as an accountant in the English speaking country.
He needed high score in TOEIC and IELTS, and he had to prepare some vocabulary and grammar knowledge for work.
You need them in the situation. People have different situation such as having fun or working.
今回のような言語のswappingというのは両人がバイリンガルである時に楽しめる知的な遊びですね。また、最後の件(くだり)で母語のしゃべりやすさについて出てきましたが、このやり方は単なる脳みそのゲームということ以外に、専門的だったりえらく深い話をしたい時には(互いに高度のバイリンガルであることが前提ですが)有用な手法なのかもしれません。
今回のやり方は試みとしては面白かったのですが、私個人としてはやはり英語でも日本語でもいいですが片方だけの言語で話している様子が見たいです。
以前も書いたことがありますが、その人の外国語の能力が一番露見する状況というのはネイティブの人と会話している時じゃないかと思っています。つまり、atsuさんの英語力はmattさんとお互い英語のみの会話をすることでその凄さと、私ごときが大変失礼なのですが(ネイティブ目線から見たときの)微妙な点の両方が大体はっきり出ると思います。同様に両人が日本語のみで会話した場合にmattさんの日本語能力の凄さと微妙な点も浮き彫りになるでしょう。ただ、これらに関してはmattさんとdogenさんの対談で｢ある人の外国語能力のレベルの測定は、その人より上のレベルの人からしか判断できない｣と言っていた通りで、atsuさんの英語力にしてもmattさんの日本語力にしてもネイティブの人からしか正確には判断できない感覚だと思いますが。
I've always wanted to see a collab between Atsu and Matt and we now finally have this great video.
Atsuさんのアプローチは英語のように動詞の活用や語尾変化が少なく、文法の変化球も少ない、でも語順が重要な言語には有効な方法だと思う。
反して、Mattさんのアプローチは日本語やラテン系言語やドイツ語のように(他の言語は触れたことも無いので割愛)動詞の活用や語尾変化が多く、文法の変化球も少なくないけれど、そのお陰で語順が入れ替わっても意味が変わらないような言語に有効だと思う。
私が大人になってから移住して話すようになったのはイタリア語だけど、イタリア語では1つの動詞は90変化。初期の段階で理詰めで覚えてもすんなりと出てくるものではないし、Mattさんが「～て、～で」の付き方とその変化球規則の煩雑さをキッチリ覚えるよりも「その系統か～」ぐらいの認識が出来ればあとは実用の中でインプットされていく、と言っていたことに共感する。私もイタリア語はそうやって覚えた。実際、会話ではまず使わず、物語を読んだ時に「あ、あの動詞ね」と分かれば十分なものも多い。
それに、「原則はそうなんだけど、この単語の時にはね..．」ロジックに頼れない変化球も多い。何度も聞いているうちに耳慣れてきて、それでもロジックは見つからず、結局、判断基準は「耳障りか、聞き馴染みがあるか」だけだったりする。
まさにこれ！っていうコメント
私も、語学習得はリスニングがほぼ全てじゃないかと考えています。よく言われる通りリスニングには音声知覚と意味理解と二段階がありますが、音声知覚というのが厄介で、その聞いた瞬間に聞き取れたと思っても次の瞬間にはその聞き取れたはずの音声が頭から抜けてしまいます。私は日本人が英語ができない理由の１つはここではないかと考えています。私が思うに、上記のように音声知覚にはさらに二段階あってその音に出会った時にその音を判別する「瞬間音声知覚」と、その判別した音声が２秒後、３秒後まで頭に残る「持続音声知覚」。
私はこの数年英語をそれなりに聞き込んで瞬間音声知覚の能力は大分上がりましたが、持続音声知覚が全然ダメで結局音声が理解できないままずっと続いているという状態です(おそらく死ぬまでこのままでしょう)。聞いた音が聞いた瞬間だけじゃなく、ヌメっと頭に数秒間でもこびりつくような聴力を獲得しない限り、耳に「聴き馴染み感」が獲得されず対象言語の習得ができないんじゃないかというのが今の私の仮説です。逆にこの持続音声知覚が何らかの道で伸ばすことができれば語学力がかなり伸びるのではないかと考えています。
これめちゃくちゃ面白いな
言語の性質によって各アプローチの価値が変わるって、考えてみりゃ当たり前だけど全然意識してなかった
面白い！
動画含めてこれがすごく腑に落ちた。90変化ってもはやネイティブも飽き飽きしてそう
i honestly agree with this
12:50
ドラマなど、一度見てから少し日をおいて(別のマテリアルで英語学習し続けて)しばらくして再び観てみると、新しい学びの収穫がある感覚がある。
私はマットさんがおっしゃってた1つのドラマ完璧にしようとして挫折する、単語帳を覚えようとして飽きて挫折する を繰り返してるのでマットさんのアプローチでそこまで日本語ができるようになることに感動しました。私の場合は英語の勉強ですが。
Matt's comprehension with Atsu's explanations is just super impressive. The way he acknowledges his speeches and responds instantly to certain statements. It's as if he was raised around these expressions. How does he get his input to such a high level like this? I've been immersing for almost 2 years and I can confidently say there was maybe 2 words I never heard of in Atsu's speeches but a lot of these phrases I either misinterpreted or wasn't able to process it into meaning. How do I go about this? The ambiguity within this is harder to tolerate because I feel like I should know all the shit he's saying.
You just have to keep listening and talking to native japanese people till you get it.
just give it time
Excellent video!
真剣に聞いていましたが、最後は笑いました。やっぱり母国語ってすごいですよね。どんな砕けたことでもわかるし、かといって難しいこともわかる。
最近の英語学習で言われていることは、日本人はリーディングに偏りすぎでアウトプットの訓練ができていないということだと思うのですが、マットさんの考えはインプット重視なんですね。
曖昧さを受け入れるというのも私は苦手で、ちょっとでもわからないと嫌になってしまいます。
前編からこちらに来て、最初マットさんが英語でペラペラとやったときには、英語も話せるのかという感じでした。スピードもすごく速く感じました。
I actually wasn't interested in the concept of the video but I was hooked pretty quickly!
How is this a debate? Seems like a fruitful discussion on how to understand and learn a new language (through utilizing both perspectives of two given langauges). Very interesting and well done!
A very important thing I want to point out in defense of each side of the debate is that English is a high density language, and Japanese is a lot density language. Something I found when studying Portuguese and Japanese is that I could miss a lot of what I was hearing, and still understand the meaning of the sentence or the word. Meanwhile when teaching my girlfriend english, if she misses one word in english, the whole sentence changes meaning, and it's easy to miss one word when every word in english is only 1 or 2 syllables with little vowels being used, instead in english we choose to use 21 different vowels, it's really similar to how tones work in chinese. I think when learning a language with lower density, it helps to work on context and just learning to understand what's being said. But when you want to learn a high information density language like english, it's probably better to make sure you master the fundamentals of the grammars logical struvture, and get familliar with those words and sounds if you want to be accurate in your communications. A great example of this is when Matt said you can just learn the て form of verbs, and while I used that method with portuguese for things like "endo" it just doesn't work in a language like english with our rules for conjugating verbs, as instead we like to pair a word with a verb to change it's meaning, and apply rules to when those words force conjugation. In english it's hard to understand a sentence like "if you can't speak, then tap" if you don't hear the word "speak" then you might just have to hope you can get the context correctly. Like with everything this is very contextual, and an argument can be made for how language learning will NEVER be simple or cut and dry. But I feel this video was a great insight on the way that different people approach language as an idividual (background, naive language, personal motivations). It seems really if you are someone with goals in the long run, and to master something, then Matt's method for learning is great. If you're someone that loves language learning, but don't have the long term motivation to go along with a deep passion, then finding instant use out of a language is a much better way to keep on track.
Great video as always Matt, I look forward to more of these colabs!
great talk. I will watch this again.
とても良い議論ですね！
"What's your take on that?"とかおもしろい英語も何個かあったので早速使ってみます！
Good argument!!
There are some interesting english words like "What's your take on that?" so I try using it immediately.
I think it is awesome when you hear a Japanese person speaking English and you can hear the accent of the country where they learned it.
Hey Matt I've got a question about immersion and my language learning. So to give you some context I am learning Spanish and I understand like 20% of whatever is being said during my immersion (usually Spanish comedies, Tv, youtube videos, etc.), I also often listen to Japanese Music and will sometimes watch videos in Japanese but I have never studied Japanese and know probably around 5 words. Do you think listening to different languages that I don't understand will confuse my brain and make it harder to learn? Thanks, I really like your content and it's helping me a lot btw.
Edit: Oh also the other day I was trying to think of some random Spanish words and then I said Dame a Da Ne, from the Japanese Song Baka Mitai, this inspired me to ask this question.
The great thing about the discomfort that comes from ambiguity is that it is the driving force that helps us learn. Our brains naturally strive to avoid discomfort and as a result, they will do what they can to resolve that discomfort (i.e. try to make sense of the unfamiliar). Therefore, it all comes down to our ability to overcome our brain's resistance to putting ourselves in that discomfort in the first place.
lol I copied down all the Japanese sentences that are relevant to me so I can have a conversation with my Japanese friend about language acquisition. Both really interesting and different approaches, thank you so much for this Anime episode Matt!
What an interesting debate! I'm torn between your opinions. I learnt English by myself, by watching cartoons, using my computer and phone in English, and just immersing myself in the language- at 18 i got my c2 certificate. When it comes to Japanese tho, it's a whole different story: I was good with pronunciation, with kanji studies, and memorizing grammar. Speaking Japanese never came to me intuitively- so i wish i had access to vocab books, and more common phrases/ways of expressing myself without feeling lost.
Matt is really intelligent 😂 I agree with atsu on some point but also
With what Matt said. Both method are really good and efficient
確かにi +1の理論、小学生低学年位の頃に、日本語はまぁ日常会話はしゃべれてるけど、ニュースの内容がいくら聞いても頭に入ってこなかった。何歳ごろに完全に理解できるようになってたかは覚えてないけど、曖昧さを受け入れるってそういう自然に言語を覚えるプロセスに近いのだと思う。
Matt do you & do you guys have any tips on how to overcome my nervousness of talking to,hanging out with & play with Japanese otakus & Japanese gamers either irl,online or both irl & online & yes I'm including half Japanese,part Japanese,playing mmos & mmorpgs if I ever do become or if I ever do get nervous? To explain my nervousness all I will say for now is that for now I'm still a beginner of learning Japanese & 1 of my reasons I wanted to learn Japanese due to that I love Japanese entertainment & I love Japanese entertainment media :).
I've got a linguistics degree and 5 years experience teaching ESL. Funny thing is Matt, when you brought up your argument about the 'te' form, I wondered if that was the present perfect. I have no knowledge of Japanese. I looked it up and it turns out that 'te' is a participle used to form the present perfect. The reason I wondered that is because the rules and theories around the present perfect are famously complex and strange. I actually agree with you in this regard. It takes an awfully long time to teach all the theories & rules about the present perfect and it turns out to be a lot less productive than spending more time on speaking exercises like 'have you ever' and 'what have you been doing'. But this is exceptionally true for the present perfect. You could make a similar case for articles and sometimes participles in general, but that's starting to get into irregularity which is kind of a different issue. In any case, I think you could count on one hand the grammar points where I believe this is mostly the case. Most grammar points can be taught in a simple and systematic way and it speeds up the process. Let me finish by saying that if a non-native speaker masters the present perfect, I would argue that 99% of the time it would mostly be based on intuition. Even people who have formally studied linguistics might not be familiar with some of the theories surrounding the present perfect. They would have to study tense and aspect specifically and read some of the articles that are out there.
This was actually so well articulated by both sides - I can't believe it but I've finally found someone who understands the thought process that I go through naturally; for example when matt was talking about understanding the intuitive interpretation of what's going on and figuring out, noticing patterns from MULTIPLE inputs. That's how I USUALLY learn, but to be honest, I've been adding in Atsu's method (before even knowing about it) and WITH understanding the rules, I can integrate both and it helps so much more that way!
I think incorporating both is very beneficial and can be much more efficient, especially because the intuitive perspective is a lot tougher for most people than doing the foundational grammatical analysis method.
i know whan atsueigo meant with that the understanding of grammar in an analytical way is important in a way that without it, everything would be blurry but that is just how everything new in terms of skills to learn feels at the beginning with enough repetition, the real intuition will form which takes patience and also effort.
I think learning grammar is helpfull but only to a certain extend because if you focus on it too hard on it you'll eventually get problems as soon as those rules are bent or even broken in some dialects and/or slang. I had an english teacher who was unable to communicate with US or Australian natives because of that.
Hi matt, could you make a video talking how to start learning japanese from the very beginning and how to keep moving forward to intermediate, thanks, i hope you read this :D
アツさんの言語学習についてのジグソーパズルの例えがしっくりしすぎて感動しました
両方のアプローチは面白いとおもう。
ただ求める先にMattさんは自分みたいに何ヶ国語も話せるようになるにはものすごくあってるし、やりやすい。
あつさんのは一つの言語を極めれる。ただ他の言語もってなるともっともっと時間がかかりすぎて学べにくいとは思う。
僕の友人には27ヶ国語話せる人がいてもう感覚的に拾っていくやり方。このパズルの比喩もそうだけどどっちがいくつの言語学べれるのか数か国語話せれる人からの意見も聞いてみたい
多分言語学習の王道はMattさんの方なんだろうな。
マットさんの話きいてインプットの大切さが身に染みました。
There is the traditional way in communication and there is the casual way. Casual is comfortability for most beginners then move to the next stage of higher more traditional way of understanding.
とても勉強になりました！間違ったことを話すのが恥ずかしいと思う人が日本人には多いと思うので、文法が重要視されがちだと思いますが、マットさんのように曖昧さを受け入れながらも大量のインプットで共通項を探していくやり方は、言語学習を継続する上でのモチベーション維持にとても大事だと共感しました。マットさんの学習方法を実践していこうと思います＾＾
I'd love to see you do a similar thing again where you try to teach him the grammar rules of Japanese as an English speaker learns them, and have him teach you some grammar rules of English as a Japanese speaker learns them.
I totally dig this idea! The way a person explains a grammar rule is so interesting. There are sometimes shortcuts I cannot come up with because my way of thinking is just different.
I was interested to see the reaction to finding out stuff about the grammar of your own language that you didn't even know because you learned the language before you even knew what grammar is. For example, I was at uni before someone told me that we use "an" before a noun/adjective/adverb that starts with a vowel (e.g. an elephant) and "a" before a noun/adjective/adverb that starts with a consonant (e.g. a cement wall). And of course there are exceptions (words starting with y and h, for example). I'm interested in both the reaction to the lesson but also just simply to see how it's explained. I'd go to English-teaching channels but stuff this basic is always taught in another language and my listening skills in other languages is too low to understand.
That would be a fun way for everyone to cringe a lot, the native English speakers would be cringing at the way Japanese people learn and Native Japanese speakers would be cringing at how we would learn at first. It would be good times.
It's so interesting that Atsu throws in some English words while speaking Japanese but you (Matt) speak in full English, I know you're both speaking your own native language but it seems like Atsu used a few English words to explain things just because you're a native English speaker. If he was speaking to a Japanese person he'd probably use Japanese words to explain all the concepts he was talking about. I'm curious to know if this happens a lot: Japanese people using more 外来語 (gairaigo - foreign borrowed words) or English words when speaking to someone they know is a native English speaker.
Sure man
その通りだと思います。Atsu さんは英語が好きすぎるあまり，日本語を忘れちゃってるかもしれません。普通の日本語話者は，専門用語などを除いて，外来語を使うことは少ないかなあって思います。
Atsu might have forgot Japanese that he love English so much. For other Japanese, borrowed words are more limited in using technical terms, and using borrowed words might be felt sometimes how you snobbish（気取っている） because such words are difficult to understand immediately for general Japanese speakers. For example, "ドラスティックに", which means "drastically", is usually paraphrased to "劇的に" which is more common for Japanese.
I don't think so, I speak 4 languages and something that happens a lot is you remember an idea in language X and forgets or just don't quite remember how to properly say it in language Y (even if Y is your native language), then you use the one that will best convey your ideas if you know the other party is also fluent in it, I am sure other polyglots will confirm. In the end language is merely a tool to convey the concept of ideas.
@@roufas7595 this and also at 3:35, he mentions that he "can't actually think of the Japanese word for 'inductive'" so I think he's using words he happens to only know/remember in English and that best fit what he's trying to say.
Nah, Japanese use a lot of English words. Especially young people.
amazing! Thank you Matt and Atsueigo
Wow Matt truly is an inspiration
マットさんを知って、私のアプローチでも良かったんだと思えて励みになります。先に理屈を取り込むと先入観が邪魔をするし、発見する事や感覚的にわかる事が言葉を学ぶ楽しさだと思っています。
Really cool video! It's funny cause i'm italian and i'm actually searching for how to deal with japanese, from an english native speaker. So for now, i'm improving my english skills as well 😂 (thinking in italian, understanding english to find a way to learn japanese) 🤯🤣
Ti consiglio di impararlo da un nativo giapponese e non da un non nativo
アツさんかっこいい！！めちゃくちゃカッコいい。相手の意見に簡単に乗っかるんじゃなくて、自分はこーやるよって。だってこーなわけじゃん。ってしっかり言える。この人まじカッコイイ。何気ない普通の議論に見えるかもしれないけど、こーゆー人がどれだけいるかで例えば腐った組織とか変われる気がする。しかもアツさんは自分の意見を言って押し通すとかではなく、相手の意見を聞き、否定せず納得して受けいれている。その後に自分の場合はこーである、なぜなら。みたいなロジックがなされている。これ俺も英語でいつかしっかり言えるよーに頑張ろうー！！
What type of format do you use for anki cards? Do you ever have the English meaning on the front or is it always the Japanese sentence or word
An English' learner from Japan, also big on the guest renowned for his utilitarian books.
I restarted studying English two years ago when I was approx 20 and I absolutely am on board with the Matt's idea that listening and reading, a so-called input method really serves better for language learners. For instance, the end of the sound of plural nouns and verbs conjugated to past form has a particular linguistic rule that I learned in university. I originally knew the existence of the formula but didn't delve into that cuz of my work-shy nature haha. Through listening and reading while verbalizing, however, I intuitively picked up how words are pronounced and work in sentences, which Im guessing is what Matt san also followed and how he picked up how Japanese verbs are conjugated, as in his aforementioned "te-form".
With that being said, equally important is keeping inputting words using vocab books, especially English because English native speakers have an unintentional tendency to paraphrase words. For example, confused, stumped, puzzled, incoherent, upset, panicking, in a panic, or whatever shows your confusion are interchangeable in most cases but we Japanese mostly tend to say '困る", "混乱する', sometimes other possible words, explaining that fewer words are required in daily conversations, hence the need for more input of English words.
Oh yes. The yawning gap between their frequencies is one of the cul-de-sacs that discourages us. From the Japanese perspective, we feel like English speakers perform tongue twister, speaking like mad (though they don't obviously or it might depend on where they are), which encourages us to watch the same episode until understanding its bits and pieces. I think it's good for newbies but when you reach a certain level, it's even less efficient than watching new episodes.
Anyways, there is no one-size-fits-all method that can apply to every language learner so that we need to try to figure out and persist with the one that pans out for you. I still stink at speaking and there is a long way to go to be an articulate English speaker, but most importantly indulging in the process of learning languages is a successful key to that, I adamantly believe.
How on earth do you speak English like that after studying for 2 years, as a language student myself I feel ashamed of my own level
@@katelutine7016 As I mentioned, I 'restarted' it two years ago. Every Japanese has learned English since they were in junior high but we rarely, if ever, practice speaking and writing. So, I completed the fundamentals until I became 18 but I was unable to speak English whatsoever. And after the miraculous encounter with my Indonesian friend, I kicked off my studies and texting her for practice almost every single day - I was very slow with replies, though haha. One year after that, I noticed that words came out of my head soon enough but i was lacking in vocabulary ( at that time I had around 7,000 words or so) so I bought a vocab book and have expand it by another 7,000 words and phrases till now. You know what, since I focused on reading example sentences and some books, I picked up native-ish pronunciation and a relatively sophisticated writing style but suck at speaking ne. (TT)
Just in: now almost three years of studying English!!
I think it's the same for english speakers learning japanese. Japanese has a very high rate of syllables spoken per second, so it feels really fast, and it feels like there's an insurmountable wall of onomatopoeia and 2 kanji compound words to learn.
@@bobboberson8297 oh yeah! Onomatopeia is something challenging to pick up to boot since some coin new ones confuse us haha😂
hello matt glad to see you
Cool video, thanks Matt and Atsu!
Hey matt I have a question about the re fold method can You still do it if you have been speaking your Target language for months.
やはり、英語を浴びるように聴くっていうのと、文法理論をきちんと理解して読み込んでいく、このふたつの方法は車の両輪なんだろうな、ってのがこの動画を見て、より深く感じたことのひとつ。僕自身も両方の仕方を、結局はうまく混ぜ合わせたり、マーブルしたり、統合したりしてやっていくことで効率的に英語勉強できてきた感がある。どっちかっていうと、今はAtsuさんの文法から入るってのに共感するけど、何を隠そう実際の私の学習し始めは小4時から、NHKのラジオ英語教育番組を三年間まずは傍らでつけとくってのをやったとこから始まっているからな～、これが僕自身のマーブルしたやり方ってことの内実なんだけんど。ここら辺の話に、二人のconversationも及んでいてとっても興味深い話になっているなぁと思いました。
Atsu`s language learning method makes more sense . I found it efficient to learning grammar, words and pronounciation repeatedly and it definitely boosted my ability to understand Japanese music , anime...
What most important though is as Matt said it before that one needs to listen /hear
before you can respond. You must understand first of all or you are going nowhere.
Hearing Hearing Hearing !!!! then enunciate.
hi Matt, i am just starting my Japanese journey (memorized hiragana and katakana and know the most basic of words) I am waiting for my RTK book to arrive, until then what should I work on? i’m immersing my self as you said to do constantly listening and reading material i don’t understand but i’m lost on what else to work on, vocab maybe?
考えすぎると頭に入らなくなるので直感的に話していく、というやり方が英語でも必要な気がします。
文法や単語はもちろん重要ですが、ネイティブがどのように話しているかを理解する力が必要だと思いました！お2人の言語学習の仕方はどちらも理解できるので、真似しようと思います！😲😊🤔
The point about picking the low-hanging fruit and moving on if you don't understand something is key in achieving maximum learning efficiency and avoiding burnout.
曖昧さを受け入れるってのは面白いアプローチだと思いました。果たしてそれが本当に効率的であるのかはわかりませんが、取り入れてみてもいいのかなと思いました。
Was pleased to be able to follow both sides of this conversation both ways without too much difficulty. Matt the obsessive natural vs Atsu the professional control freak, each with his own perspective, and reaching a lot of the same conclusions nonetheless. :+ )
Hello matt , I’m maxime , a French native who have learn english through series.
I really liked your video about the difference between the INPUT and the OUTPUT.
I have started to learn japanese ( I’ve learn kana with flash card mostly) and I take à course of japanese.
I would like to know how you learnt all the basics of japanese because I really want to learn japanese, the same way that I have learn english :through média, series, anime but without basics It’s impossible
英語は比較的文法がスッキリしてるし、システマティックな言語(個人的には)だからロジカルに勉強していくスタイルが向いてるように感じる。
一方で日本語は言語のロジカルに理解できない部分が突出している(ように個人的には感じる)から、アニメとか日常生活に触れながら勉強していくスタイルが効率的なのかなって感じる。
言語によって効率的な勉強方法って変わるんだね…。面白い。
英語の文法がすっきりしてると感じるのは日本語よりも需要が高く使用者も多いことから研究が進んでてより体系化されてるのと、言語を勉強してる人のほとんどがその体系化された範囲の中から抜け出せてないからだと個人的には思ったりもします。オックスフォードで英語専攻してそれこそ英語の文法のより優れた体系化を目指してる人と話したりすると、English doesn't make any sense.とか言ってたりするので。
実際のところどうなんでしょうね。どっちのほうがシステマチックなのか、どうしてそう言えるのか知りたいものです。
いつも見てます！
とても勉強になります♪
こんばんは。とても有意義な議論を聞くことができました。このビデオを作ってくれたことに感謝します。
私も今ドイツ語を勉強中ですが、どちらの意見にもすごく共感できました。
私は最初言語学習を始めたとき、Atsuさんのようなロジックである程度の基礎ができてからのほうが効率が良いと考え実行しました。ただロジックで言語をとらえることは、母国語でもある程度の言語力が必要で、理論的に頭の中でどう考えているのか言語化する能力が必要だと思いました。基礎ができてきたら、Mattさんがおっしゃったようにたくさん言語自体に触れ、感覚的に言語を理解できるようにトレーニングすることが効果的だと思いました。
ただこれらのことは、自分自身で言語を学習していくうちに自分で気づいていくものではないかと私は考えています。最後にAtsuさんが言っていたように、やっていることはみんな結局同じで、プロセスが進んでいくうちに言語学習というものがどういうものか経験を通してそれぞれがそれぞれの感覚で理解していくという感じがしています。
小さいころから多言語に触れているいわゆるバイリンガルなどの方たちは、また成長して言語を習得している方たちとは少し違うアプローチで学んでいるかもしれませんね。その辺の違いはまた興味深いです。
言語学習のメソッドは言語化するのがとても私にとって難しいので、お二方のようにハイレベルに議論したり、人に伝えたりする人たちを尊敬しています。
重ねて、貴重な動画を作ってくれてありがとうございました。
Gotta say, I relate to Atsu's way of thinking more. Glad to have discovered him
different approaches but both understandable!
Yo matt can you next time throw the japanese text also in the subtitles section on youtube?