I appreciated seeing this and a bit shocked by some of the negative comments. I’ve got a portable little Champion 2500 watt floating neutral right now for feeding a heavy duty extension cord and just using a bonding plug and ground rod with a GFCI adapter to the cord, but acquiring a larger unit for both stand alone portable use and whole house backup power. What you’ve shown was my thoughts on how to possibly handle that so seeing someone else do it was helpful. Thanks for your time sharing this with us.
@ It’s against code over it being a serious safety hazard to have more than one grounding point in a system. A floating neutral connected to the house simply uses the ground for the house system while the bonded maintains its own ground for when I’m out in the weather with long extension cords wanting GFCI. The bonding plug in one outlet bonds the neutral wire to the ground wire for a return path to the generator frame or the frame plus ground rod if I use it then my GFCI works for me.
So after watching many videos on this subject. This is my conclusion. When operating the generator separately not powering your house. It's neutral should be bonded. When powering your house it should be unbonded. Floating neutral.
I think it's the exact opposite. If using the generator at a camp site it can just be used as is, floating neutral. But I read that in order to power my gas furnace, for instance, the neutral has to be tied to ground.
Thank you for your video. Some people may find it difficult to identify which wires would be the neutral and the ground inside of the generator case. Some more information on that may be helpful.
I'm late to the party. Great explanation that I doubt most folks are aware of when using a portable generator to provide backup power to your house. We have a Predator 8750 (7kW running) genie we use for home backup. The Predator has the Neutral/EGC bond in the receptacle panel not in the power head, I removed the bond. It our case it is unlikely we will ever use the genie standalone but did not want to prevent using it that way. So rather than using a switch I installed a Neutral/Ground jumper in a NEMA L14-30P twist-lock plug and hung it on the generator in case it every needed to be used standalone. This also eliminated the possibility of making a mistake as the L14-30 receptacle is how we connect it to the house. I added a label on the genie indicating it has an isolated neutral as a reminder in case anyone other then myself uses it standalone. Just a nit. It was not necessary to run additional wires to the power head as the neutral and ground conductors are available in the power panel. I assume you did it that way so you could keep the explanation simple.
Your solution makes sense, it's good that you were thinking about the issue. Yes, there are other ways to achieve this but I did want a simple solution.
did the same switch for my 8kw portable generator for the house, which will be the normal case, but I might want to use it stand alone. Flip the switch to BONDED or FLOAT position depending on what is needed. Thank you for your video. I take old non working generators and get them running again. Usually it is the carb. On the above 8kw generator I got for $50, tri-fuel and the problem was: a shorted wire to the capacitors, brushless. Fixed the wire and power from a 2 cyl $3,000 genset began again
@richardvedvik979, thank you for taking the time to create and post this video. Very clean implementation that allows for the greatest flexibility of use with your generator and a minute amount of future work to use it as a true portable or a whole house power source. With larger portable generators, and as "easy" as this modification was for your particular unit, I wonder why this "feature" is not a standard. The generator manufacturers know that many (most?) of their larger generators are going to be used as back up power for a house, to me it makes good sense for them to incorporate this into their build and then the consumer "knows" it has been implemented correctly.
Very informative video. Just acquired WEN inverter generator with floating neutral. Main use is to power appliances directly from the generator via extension cords. Based on your video, I should bond the neutral with ground. I acquired a neutral ground bonding plug. However, everywhere I read, it says don’t use such plug with floating neutral generators. Your opinion on what to do, please?
I wonder if you can just get a neutral grounding plug which when plugged into 120 v receptor on the generator, you canvert it into a neutral bonded generator. This has been done for a lot of RVers when they have a floating neutral generator like Honda.
RVs typically don't have NG bond in the breaker panel. It's done at the pedestal. When a floating neutral generator is used you can typically just make a receptacle plug that has a jumper between the neutral and ground contacts. This just plugs into one of the generator receptacles to make the generator bonded.
Thank you for the great videos! I have a generator with a floating neutral that I use for powering up the house during outages. If I want to use the generator for like power tools as a stand alone generator. Can I use a neutral ground bonding plug to make the generator bonded neutral and is it safe?
I was going to ask the same question, as I made two of my own binding plugs, using 10AWG wire as my jumper. I did one on a 30 amp twist lock, which I leave plugged into the twist lock outlet, so when exercising my generator with just items directly plugged into the generator’s 120 volt outlets, the neutral is bonded, but when I go to plug it into my installed inlet box using my 30amp twist lock cable, I have to remove my bonding plug, in order to plug in the transfer cable. Keeps me from forgetting to remove the redundant neutral bond. Would 8AWG be better. The original jumper wire that was in place appears to be 10AWG, so that’s why I went with that.
@larryr8320 I ended up doing the same thing you did as far as making the 30 amp twistlock bonding plug. That's a great idea as for keeping the bonding plug plugged into the generator until I need to hook it up to the 30 amp house inlet to power the house!
If you have a floating neutral transfer switch then a floating neutral generator setup but if you have a switched neutral transfer switch then you need the bonded generator setup, correct?
@@garywebb9818, if there is a bond in your breaker panel then it definitely matters. Is this in an RV? Home? Was the transfer switch retrofitted before an existing system?
Thanks for sharing this video, Richard. I recently purchased a bonded 7500 firman generator at Costco and have already installed a 30A generator inlet box, 30A 2P breaker, and interlock on my main panel to backfeed my house during power outtages. To clarify a previous video of yours on this topic, for me to functionally achieve a "floating neutral" configuration without modifying my generator (that's bonded), could i just lift the ground conductor coming from the panel inside the inlet receptable box on the wall and placed a warning label on the inlet box cover stating: "For connection of a non-seperately derived floating neutral system only". Your professional thoughts are appreciated and thanks again for this informative video.
thanks for the video. It is very helpful. Could you tell us where to get the toggle switch you reference? I am unable to locate one with the ratings you mention.
I used a switch a lot like this: www.amazon.com/Nilight-Rocker-Toggle-Switch-Waterproof/dp/B087NCLX3W I wired the neutral bond through both contacts (hence DPDT and not SPST) to get the full 30A handling capability.
I want to do the same thing. But do you select the toggle amp size based on the bonded amps or the floating neutral amps? I have a briggs and stratton 8000 with 30amps outlet and 2x 20amp outlets. 20amps will be the bonded, and the 30amps will be the size i need floating. I would appreciate any help. CHEERS!
At that amperage, you could control a contactor with a switch in lieu of a toggle switch. You could get a high amperage switch, used for motor starting, if they were rated for 250V. But this needs a decently sized enclosure. www.grainger.com/product/1MTE5
Would the type of outlet you are using (30 amp or 50amp) to connect to your house, really matter in the switch/wire size, since the jumper you created is the same gauge wire, that the original jumper that was removed? Length would be the only difference? Not an electrician or an engineer, just kind of my impression of what’s being replaced. Any insight is appreciated!
If the ground and neutral are interrupted ( disconnected ) from the neutral of the service panel ( while the "main" is also off) would this still be necessary? Would the house not then be like providing power to any other device plugged in that required the Generator to be bonded?
If a 3-pole transfer switch is used, meaning the neutral conductor is switched with the phase conductors between utility and generator, then the generator is considered separately derived and must be bonded. It is very rare for a panel to have a neutral disconnect tied to the main breaker at the service entrance, at least in the US.
OK After 45 years in the electrical craft I still can't understand why the 1/4 inch of difference between connecting the generators neutral to the Grounded/Neutral Conductor of the Service Entry Conductors and connecting that same neutral to the Grounded/Neutral Busbar; were I note that the US National Electric Code (NEC) specifically allows me to connect the Grounding Electrode Conductors; makes any electrical difference. My question is about the generators factory new condition and thus the generator's neutral is bonded to it's frame. If I put a saddle tap on the Grounded/Neutral Conductor of the Service Entry Conductors and connect the generator's Grounded/Neutral conductor on that saddle tap and tighten everything to specified torque the Code Making Panel for section 250 of the NEC thinks that is wonderful. If, instead, I connect the generators Grounded/Neutral Conductor to the Grounded/Neutral busbar a 1/4 inch away from the Grounded/Neutral Service Entry Conductor that is the END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT? Since You are a "EE", Electrical Engineer would you explain that 1/4 inch of lug metal making such a difference. Obviously I don't buy it. But maybe you know of some rational reason that I should. Tom Horne
Hi, Tom. While I'm not on the CMP, I spend a lot of time in NFPA sections. It appears that decisions fall into three categories: 1. a necessary approach for safety, 2. sponsored by industry, and 3. someone thought it was a good idea. My take is the key factor in bonding and grounding is reliability and repeatability in practice. There is no electrical difference where a connection is made if the resistance between options is negligible. The primary concern is that there is always resistance and some ground bars are just held in place with two screws, so the contact area is just the tub metal thickness * screw diameter * 2. As long as the installer takes care, as you describe, i'm happy.
Does it start up and run in float position? I found another video on UA-cam showing how to float generacs and a few people had problems with the engine stayng running for more than 5 seconds. But when they put it back to factory it would run normally. Why would it do that for some people? Could they have just not done it properly? I still haven't got mine yet but it's coming. I got the 7500 watt fuel injected dual fuel. I hope I didn't make a mistake ordering that one.
If you're just using the 120V receptacles, the GFCI outlets, then you don't have to worry about bonding. If you're back-feeding your home, then that's what this video is about.
My generator has 2 white wires coming from the stator like yours but also have two whites going to the generator panel. They are running parallel and only one was jumped to ground. What’s going on here? Why was only one jumped, why are the two neutrals separated? Since I’m wanting it floated, after removing the jumper, should I connect all 4 together or leave the two sets separate like they are now?
Sorry for the delay. I would need to see a manufacturers wiring diagram and photos to advise on exactly what your wires are doing. You need to identify the generator's neutral-ground jumper, which may be one of the wires you describe.
@@richardvedvik979thanks. I’ve since found out that Duromax doesn’t know what they are talking about. They claim it’s floating out of the factory… but it’s not. It’s bonded.. they say it is floating because they have the stator and motor isolated from the frame using rubber mounts… I have corrected this by removing the jumper. I’m just confused as to why they would make this claim since doesn’t align with electrical code definitions.
When I first watched this video, I thought I heard him say what wire he used but now I cannot find it. Does anyone know what gauge wire he is using for this modification?
I’m more confused now on what the best setup is for home use. I’m fortunate to have close friends who are Master Electricians. All of which have said I’m over complicating this subject. My Genmax 7500 is a bonded neutral generator, I’m installing a 50 amp outlet at the main with an interlock, literally every electrician I have talked to about this says to plug it in and run it as is. Why is this such a hot topic on UA-cam but guys in field tell me to stop worrying about it??
My house has two power legs and a neutral into a meter base from the utility pole. From the meter it goes to the point of first disconnect on the outside of the house. It’s a single 200A main breaker in an Eaton box made for it. My bare copper conductor ground cable from my double ground rod goes into this point of first disconnect to a lug. The outside point of first disconnect neutral bar is case bonded with a supplied screw. From that exterior “main panel” my interior house 200A “sub” panel is fed with aluminum service entry cable…two hots, neutral and ground. This interior panel is NOT bonded and the neutral and grounds are on separate bars in their respective locations. However this interior panel (Square D QO) has a Square D Mechanical Interlock device with a 30A back feed breaker in that position for Generator connection. For connecting a generator I would turn off the outside 200A breaker (point of first disconnect) and also activate the interior interlock to shut off that 200A breaker. All I’ve done is disconnect the hot legs in both breaker flips. Now my neutral and ground are still bonded at the outside panel. If I hook up the Gen to the interior panel as per the interlocked back feed breaker….I still need floating neutral generator…correct?
I suppose I forgot to ask another question. Should I use an earth grounding conductor from my residential earth ground rods to my generator ground stud while it’s supplying my panel in a floating neutral setup? My Gen set will be supplying my QO interlocked breaker in the floating neutral scheme described earlier. The cable from my panel to the gen is 8ga four conductor (black white red green if I recall) rated for the 30 amps max. My questions are all for my own actions and risk. My thought is no I should not do that since it’s connected to earth ground via the Gen cable grounding conductor.
@NeilLB7 you should have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground from your genset to your panel. The floating neutral generator will use the existing panel's grounding. There is no issue adding a dedicated ground rod at the generator and some codes would require it for larger installations.
Here is the problem. If the generator power cord looses it neutral bad things can happen. This loss of the neutral in the cord has happened on another UA-cam video. There is no easy way to test your cord for an open neutral. Typically this would be done with a multimeter and most people are not familar with how to test for an open neutral and few people would know that you need to test the cord for an open neutral before use. If you connect your home with a generator using the 240 volt connector and you have an open neutral in your power cord two things can happen. If your generator has a bonded neutral then the ground wire takes the place of the missing neutral and you never know the problem exists. If you generator has a floating neutral then the return current on the neutral has no return path and the house voltage to the 120 volt outlets varies widly and can cause you appliances to catch fire and burn down your house. As a result I will only use the generator as it supplied from the manufaturer. Using it with modifications can result in you taking on the liability and your home insurance carrier not paying your claim. Just because a buliding code says somthing it does not always mean it applies to your situation and it is the safest way to work. Manufacturers of generators have liability standards for a reason and it includes instructions and if a floating bond switch was required they would provide it and all of the instructions. Home made power cords can be the most dangerous.
Great comment. I agree a loss of a neutral conductor is a major concern, but that concern exists in every circuit and every panel in every home. It is more dangerous to have multiple neutral-ground bonds, and it's illegal. Always having a shock hazard is worse than the rare/accidental instance of a lifted neutral in which problems immediately occur (since voltage reference is lost). The logic you present applies to sub panels as well, correct? Do you think the same lifted neutral concern outweighs the prohibition of bonded sub panels? In this video, I only changed the neutral bonding configuration, the factory neutral wires were unchanged and connected in the same manner. I did not introduce any additional risk in the form of a lost neutral. I understand the point you make about a redundant path, but that is not the intent of the EGC. This modification allows me to run my generator in a floating neutral configuration, with a continuous EGC in the generator receptacle (my previous video lifted that ground), so my generator uses the N-G bond in the home. Obviously, the best solution is a 3-pole transfer switch so both home and generator are bonded (separately derived) and the ATS switches the neutral. Homemade cords carry risk, but so do cheap molded cords. Adding a cord cap to a wire is very tricky as the lengths have to be perfect and strain relief is needed. In this case, I did not modify any cords. I can certainly see how a homemade cords can cause a lifted neutral. Excellent point, and I don't advocate for modified cords either. There is shock hazard and danger in having the ground wire used as a neutral and that is not it's purpose. The purpose of the EGC is to carry inadvertent current from metal casings that accidentally become energized. If we relied on the EGC to hide the lifted neutral, we extend the amount of time we have a lifted neutral and we have a shock hazard the entire time. If a lifted neutral occurs, damage to certain types of equipment can occur due to fluctuating voltages but a shock hazard is not any more present than normal. My concern is safety to people over protection of things.
Just a thought regarding “if the manufacturer” comment you made. I wonder how that liability would apply, if in the owner’s manual for my Westinghouse generator, there is a section explaining how to float the neutral, when connecting to panel that already has a bonded neutral. I know liability is a legal issue and not an electrical one, but it does appear that the company is saying “do this” if needed. Thoughts?
@@larryr8320 I think this issue is an opportunity to debate the legal issues in a court of law. Judges and lawyers are not engineers and engineers are not lawyers. As engineers we can only assess what may happen or what has happened in the past. Assessing risk and liability is not always fair, equable and right. We have lawyers and judges to make those decisions, right or wrong. A building code by itself is not a law. A code enforcement department is the law enforcement arm and can adopt national codes into enforceable laws. When this is done, the code enforcement department must also interpret exceptions to the rules. Now when a consumer is injured by a manufacturer’s defective instructions, the consumer must provide evidence to the court as to why the instructions were defective. Again this is where the engineer comes in to provide expert testimony and the manufacturer provides their expert. This is why the manufacturer instructions are written conservatively so that they do not expose the manufacturer to liability. In many cases they are silent on issues. Silence can mean that it is not to be used outside the covered instructions. In some cases the manufactuer’s instructions can override the national code if the code enforcement department agrees.
Many people rely on those wago connectors which i feel is a dangerous practice…..yes they are easy to use but you are relying on spring tension (its noticeable how the one wire slipped back out of the wago) and the quality for that said metal inside the wago, actually connecting WIRE to WIRE with a wire nut or some type of mechanical crimp is more reliable and a better bond, why add another variable you dont need……..wagos are great for trouble shooting and removed thats about it in my opinion but your video was great!
Thanks for the comments! I considered crimping but this was a bit of an experiment, so servicing the connection was desired. The Lever-nut by Wago are UL listed for use on 600V AC systems, and have gained a lot of favor with large-scale commercial electricians. They are becoming the preferred solution when installing stranded wire or combining solid and stranded. The lever can lift up a bit without affecting the connection. A traditional wire nut has never been a good solution with stranded wire, since the wire nut was never designed to hold the wires together, just insulate a pre-twisted set of solid wires. We have all realized the wall-nut by Wago is not desirable as it isn't good for stranded wire and has a smaller contact patch. After a mechanical crimp, insulation is needed, but I do like mechanical crimps. While I rely on Super 33+ or Super 88 for any electrical tape purposes, having and insulated connection that is serviceable was desired here.
So, the reason for the generator to have a floating neutral is when it is not connected to the house? It's for power tools straight off the generator? Bonding is for house use?
I watched twice & three times. I only have a working knowledge of electricity. Not the level of education of you have. I'm still confused. Perhaps you should modify your video for those with a working knowledge of electricity? I understood how you did your modification. I just don't understand why you did? You touched on it briefly.
@@larryr8320 Well, I'm dyslexic. That might explain why I'm not understanding the bonding part. I had an electrician wire up my portable generator to the house. I told him to spare no expense. I wanted it done correctly. He was delighted to hear that. I guess some people are only interested in paying for the bare minimum?
Well, that was a wise decision. Especially when working with electricity and you are unsure of what you need to do, it is always better to have a skilled person do the task. For the most part unless a wire is sparking and arcing, you can’t know for sure if it’s live, without the use of a meter. Always better to be safe than sorry! There is a lot to learn about using a backup generator, I’ve been learning new things for years and still have a lot to learn. Lots of good websites out there to learn from
@@rogerrynearson2500 being bonded was the problem. My other videos explain how I lifted the ground in the generator receptacle to break the generator N-G bond when connected to the home.
So you’re trying to avoid parallel conductors by installing parallel conductors! The risk of using generator in unbounded condition to power devices out weighs using generator to power house in bonded condition. 99.99% of people will never understand any of this. Now why didn’t you just undond the generator and install switch to lugs in panel rather the run the wires back to the generator head. Now neutral wires don’t have to be same gage as L1/L2 for main service conductors so you probably don’t need 30 amps for bond switch. Just my thoughts.
NUMB-NUTS: When your connecting the switch with the lever nuts, your hands are in the way, whereas, we CAN NOT SEE where each end of the 4 wires are TERMINATED!!! Were in the DARK here!!! Sloppy vid
I appreciated seeing this and a bit shocked by some of the negative comments. I’ve got a portable little Champion 2500 watt floating neutral right now for feeding a heavy duty extension cord and just using a bonding plug and ground rod with a GFCI adapter to the cord, but acquiring a larger unit for both stand alone portable use and whole house backup power. What you’ve shown was my thoughts on how to possibly handle that so seeing someone else do it was helpful. Thanks for your time sharing this with us.
Thank you for the comments!
@richardvedvik979 will damage be caused if you hook up to house with it bonded?
@ It’s against code over it being a serious safety hazard to have more than one grounding point in a system. A floating neutral connected to the house simply uses the ground for the house system while the bonded maintains its own ground for when I’m out in the weather with long extension cords wanting GFCI. The bonding plug in one outlet bonds the neutral wire to the ground wire for a return path to the generator frame or the frame plus ground rod if I use it then my GFCI works for me.
So after watching many videos on this subject. This is my conclusion. When operating the generator separately not powering your house. It's neutral should be bonded. When powering your house it should be unbonded. Floating neutral.
I think it's the exact opposite. If using the generator at a camp site it can just be used as is, floating neutral. But I read that in order to power my gas furnace, for instance, the neutral has to be tied to ground.
Awesome information. Thank you for taking the time to put this video out!
Thank you for your video. Some people may find it difficult to identify which wires would be the neutral and the ground inside of the generator case. Some more information on that may be helpful.
I agree and will release a part 2 that explains why and how to use. I wanted to control the length of this video.
I'm late to the party. Great explanation that I doubt most folks are aware of when using a portable generator to provide backup power to your house.
We have a Predator 8750 (7kW running) genie we use for home backup. The Predator has the Neutral/EGC bond in the receptacle panel not in the power head, I removed the bond. It our case it is unlikely we will ever use the genie standalone but did not want to prevent using it that way. So rather than using a switch I installed a Neutral/Ground jumper in a NEMA L14-30P twist-lock plug and hung it on the generator in case it every needed to be used standalone. This also eliminated the possibility of making a mistake as the L14-30 receptacle is how we connect it to the house. I added a label on the genie indicating it has an isolated neutral as a reminder in case anyone other then myself uses it standalone.
Just a nit. It was not necessary to run additional wires to the power head as the neutral and ground conductors are available in the power panel. I assume you did it that way so you could keep the explanation simple.
Your solution makes sense, it's good that you were thinking about the issue. Yes, there are other ways to achieve this but I did want a simple solution.
I have the same generator as you. Thank you for identifying where the bond is, you saved me a lot of time!!
did the same switch for my 8kw portable generator for the house, which will be the normal case, but I might want to use it stand alone. Flip the switch to BONDED or FLOAT position depending on what is needed. Thank you for your video. I take old non working generators and get them running again. Usually it is the carb. On the above 8kw generator I got for $50, tri-fuel and the problem was: a shorted wire to the capacitors, brushless. Fixed the wire and power from a 2 cyl $3,000 genset began again
Nice job and tutorial. One suggestion would be to label the toggle House and Portable for the Novice who might use it. :)
@onlywenilaugh6589 thanks, those novice are my family and it has been labeled!
Very nicely done video, with great information. Thank You!
@richardvedvik979, thank you for taking the time to create and post this video. Very clean implementation that allows for the greatest flexibility of use with your generator and a minute amount of future work to use it as a true portable or a whole house power source.
With larger portable generators, and as "easy" as this modification was for your particular unit, I wonder why this "feature" is not a standard. The generator manufacturers know that many (most?) of their larger generators are going to be used as back up power for a house, to me it makes good sense for them to incorporate this into their build and then the consumer "knows" it has been implemented correctly.
Very informative video. Just acquired WEN inverter generator with floating neutral. Main use is to power appliances directly from the generator via extension cords. Based on your video, I should bond the neutral with ground. I acquired a neutral ground bonding plug. However, everywhere I read, it says don’t use such plug with floating neutral generators. Your opinion on what to do, please?
I wonder if you can just get a neutral grounding plug which when plugged into 120 v receptor on the generator, you canvert it into a neutral bonded generator. This has been done for a lot of RVers when they have a floating neutral generator like Honda.
This describes the opposite scenario - where a bonded generator is connected to a home.
RVs typically don't have NG bond in the breaker panel. It's done at the pedestal. When a floating neutral generator is used you can typically just make a receptacle plug that has a jumper between the neutral and ground contacts. This just plugs into one of the generator receptacles to make the generator bonded.
Can you clarify the toggle switch configuration type please? DPST, SPDT, etc... on/off
It was a double pole single throw that he used. He said he paralleled the two contacts, so double pole, and it is just on or off, so single throw.
Thank you for the great videos! I have a generator with a floating neutral that I use for powering up the house during outages. If I want to use the generator for like power tools as a stand alone generator. Can I use a neutral ground bonding plug to make the generator bonded neutral and is it safe?
The neutral-ground bonding jumper needs to be adequately sized, something a plug may not accomplish. What model is the generator?
It's a Troy-Bilt model 01925
I was going to ask the same question, as I made two of my own binding plugs, using 10AWG wire as my jumper. I did one on a 30 amp twist lock, which I leave plugged into the twist lock outlet, so when exercising my generator with just items directly plugged into the generator’s 120 volt outlets, the neutral is bonded, but when I go to plug it into my installed inlet box using my 30amp twist lock cable, I have to remove my bonding plug, in order to plug in the transfer cable. Keeps me from forgetting to remove the redundant neutral bond. Would 8AWG be better. The original jumper wire that was in place appears to be 10AWG, so that’s why I went with that.
@larryr8320 I ended up doing the same thing you did as far as making the 30 amp twistlock bonding plug. That's a great idea as for keeping the bonding plug plugged into the generator until I need to hook it up to the 30 amp house inlet to power the house!
@@bryans8193 I like your idea having the bonding plug.
If you have a floating neutral transfer switch then a floating neutral generator setup but if you have a switched neutral transfer switch then you need the bonded generator setup, correct?
Is there a neutral ground bond in the breaker panel?
@@FlatOutFE Might not be on the same page as I don't believe in this case the neutral/ground bond in service panel is relevant.
@@garywebb9818, if there is a bond in your breaker panel then it definitely matters. Is this in an RV? Home? Was the transfer switch retrofitted before an existing system?
Thanks for sharing this video, Richard. I recently purchased a bonded 7500 firman generator at Costco and have already installed a 30A generator inlet box, 30A 2P breaker, and interlock on my main panel to backfeed my house during power outtages. To clarify a previous video of yours on this topic, for me to functionally achieve a "floating neutral" configuration without modifying my generator (that's bonded), could i just lift the ground conductor coming from the panel inside the inlet receptable box on the wall and placed a warning label on the inlet box cover stating: "For connection of a non-seperately derived floating neutral system only". Your professional thoughts are appreciated and thanks again for this informative video.
thanks for the video. It is very helpful. Could you tell us where to get the toggle switch you reference? I am unable to locate one with the ratings you mention.
I used a switch a lot like this: www.amazon.com/Nilight-Rocker-Toggle-Switch-Waterproof/dp/B087NCLX3W
I wired the neutral bond through both contacts (hence DPDT and not SPST) to get the full 30A handling capability.
I want to do the same thing. But do you select the toggle amp size based on the bonded amps or the floating neutral amps? I have a briggs and stratton 8000 with 30amps outlet and 2x 20amp outlets. 20amps will be the bonded, and the 30amps will be the size i need floating. I would appreciate any help. CHEERS!
Can you do this for a 50 Amp setup? If so, what toggle switch would you use?
At that amperage, you could control a contactor with a switch in lieu of a toggle switch. You could get a high amperage switch, used for motor starting, if they were rated for 250V. But this needs a decently sized enclosure. www.grainger.com/product/1MTE5
@@richardvedvik979 Thanks for the reply. Maybe a bit too pricey. lol
Would the type of outlet you are using (30 amp or 50amp) to connect to your house, really matter in the switch/wire size, since the jumper you created is the same gauge wire, that the original jumper that was removed? Length would be the only difference? Not an electrician or an engineer, just kind of my impression of what’s being replaced. Any insight is appreciated!
So is there a reason the manufacturer (Genrac) doesn't sell these with this feature?
Probably the chance of user error.
Could be too for them to sell their home link transfer box kits which that's what they told me to buy when I asked them about a floating neutral.
If the ground and neutral are interrupted ( disconnected ) from the neutral of the service panel ( while the "main" is also off) would this still be necessary? Would the house not then be like providing power to any other device plugged in that required the Generator to be bonded?
If a 3-pole transfer switch is used, meaning the neutral conductor is switched with the phase conductors between utility and generator, then the generator is considered separately derived and must be bonded. It is very rare for a panel to have a neutral disconnect tied to the main breaker at the service entrance, at least in the US.
OK After 45 years in the electrical craft I still can't understand why the 1/4 inch of difference between connecting the generators neutral to the Grounded/Neutral Conductor of the Service Entry Conductors and connecting that same neutral to the Grounded/Neutral Busbar; were I note that the US National Electric Code (NEC) specifically allows me to connect the Grounding Electrode Conductors; makes any electrical difference.
My question is about the generators factory new condition and thus the generator's neutral is bonded to it's frame.
If I put a saddle tap on the Grounded/Neutral Conductor of the Service Entry Conductors and connect the generator's Grounded/Neutral conductor on that saddle tap and tighten everything to specified torque the Code Making Panel for section 250 of the NEC thinks that is wonderful.
If, instead, I connect the generators Grounded/Neutral Conductor to the Grounded/Neutral busbar a 1/4 inch away from the Grounded/Neutral Service Entry Conductor that is the END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT? Since You are a "EE", Electrical Engineer would you explain that 1/4 inch of lug metal making such a difference. Obviously I don't buy it. But maybe you know of some rational reason that I should.
Tom Horne
Hi, Tom. While I'm not on the CMP, I spend a lot of time in NFPA sections. It appears that decisions fall into three categories: 1. a necessary approach for safety, 2. sponsored by industry, and 3. someone thought it was a good idea. My take is the key factor in bonding and grounding is reliability and repeatability in practice. There is no electrical difference where a connection is made if the resistance between options is negligible. The primary concern is that there is always resistance and some ground bars are just held in place with two screws, so the contact area is just the tub metal thickness * screw diameter * 2. As long as the installer takes care, as you describe, i'm happy.
Does it start up and run in float position? I found another video on UA-cam showing how to float generacs and a few people had problems with the engine stayng running for more than 5 seconds. But when they put it back to factory it would run normally. Why would it do that for some people? Could they have just not done it properly? I still haven't got mine yet but it's coming. I got the 7500 watt fuel injected dual fuel. I hope I didn't make a mistake ordering that one.
So if my generator has GFCI outlets, do I need to worry about bonded and floating ground
If you're just using the 120V receptacles, the GFCI outlets, then you don't have to worry about bonding. If you're back-feeding your home, then that's what this video is about.
My generator has 2 white wires coming from the stator like yours but also have two whites going to the generator panel. They are running parallel and only one was jumped to ground. What’s going on here? Why was only one jumped, why are the two neutrals separated? Since I’m wanting it floated, after removing the jumper, should I connect all 4 together or leave the two sets separate like they are now?
Sorry for the delay. I would need to see a manufacturers wiring diagram and photos to advise on exactly what your wires are doing. You need to identify the generator's neutral-ground jumper, which may be one of the wires you describe.
@@richardvedvik979thanks. I’ve since found out that Duromax doesn’t know what they are talking about. They claim it’s floating out of the factory… but it’s not. It’s bonded.. they say it is floating because they have the stator and motor isolated from the frame using rubber mounts… I have corrected this by removing the jumper. I’m just confused as to why they would make this claim since doesn’t align with electrical code definitions.
When I first watched this video, I thought I heard him say what wire he used but now I cannot find it. Does anyone know what gauge wire he is using for this modification?
Never mind, I found it! 10 gauge TNNH.
@scottfarris8728 the wiring has to be rated for the generator amperage on the phase conductors, so the neutral is the sized for the application
Why 4 wires off of switch to two going to motor..thanks
This used both contacts of the switch thereby doubled the rated current the switch can handle.
That is correct.
Thanks for replying.
I’m more confused now on what the best setup is for home use. I’m fortunate to have close friends who are Master Electricians. All of which have said I’m over complicating this subject. My Genmax 7500 is a bonded neutral generator, I’m installing a 50 amp outlet at the main with an interlock, literally every electrician I have talked to about this says to plug it in and run it as is. Why is this such a hot topic on UA-cam but guys in field tell me to stop worrying about it??
My house has two power legs and a neutral into a meter base from the utility pole. From the meter it goes to the point of first disconnect on the outside of the house. It’s a single 200A main breaker in an Eaton box made for it. My bare copper conductor ground cable from my double ground rod goes into this point of first disconnect to a lug. The outside point of first disconnect neutral bar is case bonded with a supplied screw. From that exterior “main panel” my interior house 200A “sub” panel is fed with aluminum service entry cable…two hots, neutral and ground. This interior panel is NOT bonded and the neutral and grounds are on separate bars in their respective locations. However this interior panel (Square D QO) has a Square D Mechanical Interlock device with a 30A back feed breaker in that position for Generator connection. For connecting a generator I would turn off the outside 200A breaker (point of first disconnect) and also activate the interior interlock to shut off that 200A breaker. All I’ve done is disconnect the hot legs in both breaker flips. Now my neutral and ground are still bonded at the outside panel. If I hook up the Gen to the interior panel as per the interlocked back feed breaker….I still need floating neutral generator…correct?
@@NeilLB7 correct, the generator should be floating as it uses the neutral-ground bond in the main disconnect.
@NeilLB7 excellent description, thank you for the details.
Thank you for the fast response! I try to do things right.
I suppose I forgot to ask another question. Should I use an earth grounding conductor from my residential earth ground rods to my generator ground stud while it’s supplying my panel in a floating neutral setup? My Gen set will be supplying my QO interlocked breaker in the floating neutral scheme described earlier. The cable from my panel to the gen is 8ga four conductor (black white red green if I recall) rated for the 30 amps max. My questions are all for my own actions and risk. My thought is no I should not do that since it’s connected to earth ground via the Gen cable grounding conductor.
@NeilLB7 you should have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground from your genset to your panel. The floating neutral generator will use the existing panel's grounding. There is no issue adding a dedicated ground rod at the generator and some codes would require it for larger installations.
Save time and just put a Neutral Ground Bonding Plug in one of your outlets. Just take it out when you don't need it.😁
Here is the problem. If the generator power cord looses it neutral bad things can happen. This loss of the neutral in the cord has happened on another UA-cam video. There is no easy way to test your cord for an open neutral. Typically this would be done with a multimeter and most people are not familar with how to test for an open neutral and few people would know that you need to test the cord for an open neutral before use.
If you connect your home with a generator using the 240 volt connector and you have an open neutral in your power cord two things can happen. If your generator has a bonded neutral then the ground wire takes the place of the missing neutral and you never know the problem exists. If you generator has a floating neutral then the return current on the neutral has no return path and the house voltage to the 120 volt outlets varies widly and can cause you appliances to catch fire and burn down your house.
As a result I will only use the generator as it supplied from the manufaturer. Using it with modifications can result in you taking on the liability and your home insurance carrier not paying your claim.
Just because a buliding code says somthing it does not always mean it applies to your situation and it is the safest way to work. Manufacturers of generators have liability standards for a reason and it includes instructions and if a floating bond switch was required they would provide it and all of the instructions.
Home made power cords can be the most dangerous.
Great comment.
I agree a loss of a neutral conductor is a major concern, but that concern exists in every circuit and every panel in every home. It is more dangerous to have multiple neutral-ground bonds, and it's illegal. Always having a shock hazard is worse than the rare/accidental instance of a lifted neutral in which problems immediately occur (since voltage reference is lost).
The logic you present applies to sub panels as well, correct? Do you think the same lifted neutral concern outweighs the prohibition of bonded sub panels?
In this video, I only changed the neutral bonding configuration, the factory neutral wires were unchanged and connected in the same manner. I did not introduce any additional risk in the form of a lost neutral. I understand the point you make about a redundant path, but that is not the intent of the EGC.
This modification allows me to run my generator in a floating neutral configuration, with a continuous EGC in the generator receptacle (my previous video lifted that ground), so my generator uses the N-G bond in the home. Obviously, the best solution is a 3-pole transfer switch so both home and generator are bonded (separately derived) and the ATS switches the neutral.
Homemade cords carry risk, but so do cheap molded cords. Adding a cord cap to a wire is very tricky as the lengths have to be perfect and strain relief is needed. In this case, I did not modify any cords. I can certainly see how a homemade cords can cause a lifted neutral. Excellent point, and I don't advocate for modified cords either.
There is shock hazard and danger in having the ground wire used as a neutral and that is not it's purpose. The purpose of the EGC is to carry inadvertent current from metal casings that accidentally become energized. If we relied on the EGC to hide the lifted neutral, we extend the amount of time we have a lifted neutral and we have a shock hazard the entire time.
If a lifted neutral occurs, damage to certain types of equipment can occur due to fluctuating voltages but a shock hazard is not any more present than normal. My concern is safety to people over protection of things.
Just a thought regarding “if the manufacturer” comment you made. I wonder how that liability would apply, if in the owner’s manual for my Westinghouse generator, there is a section explaining how to float the neutral, when connecting to panel that already has a bonded neutral. I know liability is a legal issue and not an electrical one, but it does appear that the company is saying “do this” if needed. Thoughts?
@@larryr8320 I think this issue is an opportunity to debate the legal issues in a court of law. Judges and lawyers are not engineers and engineers are not lawyers. As engineers we can only assess what may happen or what has happened in the past. Assessing risk and liability is not always fair, equable and right. We have lawyers and judges to make those decisions, right or wrong. A building code by itself is not a law. A code enforcement department is the law enforcement arm and can adopt national codes into enforceable laws. When this is done, the code enforcement department must also interpret exceptions to the rules.
Now when a consumer is injured by a manufacturer’s defective instructions, the consumer must provide evidence to the court as to why the instructions were defective. Again this is where the engineer comes in to provide expert testimony and the manufacturer provides their expert. This is why the manufacturer instructions are written conservatively so that they do not expose the manufacturer to liability. In many cases they are silent on issues. Silence can mean that it is not to be used outside the covered instructions. In some cases the manufactuer’s instructions can override the national code if the code enforcement department agrees.
@@richardvedvik979 Can you do a video explaining everything you speak of here in this discussion :)
Many people rely on those wago connectors which i feel is a dangerous practice…..yes they are easy to use but you are relying on spring tension (its noticeable how the one wire slipped back out of the wago) and the quality for that said metal inside the wago, actually connecting WIRE to WIRE with a wire nut or some type of mechanical crimp is more reliable and a better bond, why add another variable you dont need……..wagos are great for trouble shooting and removed thats about it in my opinion but your video was great!
Thanks for the comments! I considered crimping but this was a bit of an experiment, so servicing the connection was desired. The Lever-nut by Wago are UL listed for use on 600V AC systems, and have gained a lot of favor with large-scale commercial electricians. They are becoming the preferred solution when installing stranded wire or combining solid and stranded. The lever can lift up a bit without affecting the connection. A traditional wire nut has never been a good solution with stranded wire, since the wire nut was never designed to hold the wires together, just insulate a pre-twisted set of solid wires. We have all realized the wall-nut by Wago is not desirable as it isn't good for stranded wire and has a smaller contact patch. After a mechanical crimp, insulation is needed, but I do like mechanical crimps. While I rely on Super 33+ or Super 88 for any electrical tape purposes, having and insulated connection that is serviceable was desired here.
So, the reason for the generator to have a floating neutral is when it is not connected to the house? It's for power tools straight off the generator?
Bonding is for house use?
Watch it again, man 🙄🙄🙄🙄
I watched twice & three times. I only have a working knowledge of electricity. Not the level of education of you have. I'm still confused.
Perhaps you should modify your video for those with a working knowledge of electricity? I understood how you did your modification. I just don't understand why you did? You touched on it briefly.
You have it completely opposite
@@larryr8320 Well, I'm dyslexic. That might explain why I'm not understanding the bonding part.
I had an electrician wire up my portable generator to the house. I told him to spare no expense. I wanted it done correctly. He was delighted to hear that. I guess some people are only interested in paying for the bare minimum?
Well, that was a wise decision. Especially when working with electricity and you are unsure of what you need to do, it is always better to have a skilled person do the task. For the most part unless a wire is sparking and arcing, you can’t know for sure if it’s live, without the use of a meter. Always better to be safe than sorry! There is a lot to learn about using a backup generator, I’ve been learning new things for years and still have a lot to learn. Lots of good websites out there to learn from
5:08 Woooww... that inside make me sick. 😂
Why don't you just use a bonding plug
@@rogerrynearson2500 being bonded was the problem. My other videos explain how I lifted the ground in the generator receptacle to break the generator N-G bond when connected to the home.
Guess I can't ask a question the email address is invalid
You can ask it here as well.
So you’re trying to avoid parallel conductors by installing parallel conductors!
The risk of using generator in unbounded condition to power devices out weighs using generator to power house in bonded condition. 99.99% of people will never understand any of this.
Now why didn’t you just undond the generator and install switch to lugs in panel rather the run the wires back to the generator head. Now neutral wires don’t have to be same gage as L1/L2 for main service conductors so you probably don’t need 30 amps for bond switch. Just my thoughts.
NUMB-NUTS: When your connecting the switch with the lever nuts, your hands are in the way, whereas, we CAN NOT SEE where each end of the 4 wires are TERMINATED!!! Were in the DARK here!!! Sloppy vid
Awww
How qualified are you, at the beginning of this video you talk about house power in terms of two phases there is no phases in a 120 240 system.
Go back to school smarty.
120 volts is single phase
240 volts is two phase.
But obviously you know more.
@Cybertruck_69 is that right. So what is the phase angle ?
Can't fix stupid, I'm referring to you
@Cybertruck_69 I have no time for the stupid. What is the phase angle then