In this particular instance comparing these 2 guitars, the Cedar for me is objectively better. And I didn't want to rush to any conclusion. Neither am I saying that Cedar in all instances is better. But I agree 100% with your analysis.
Whenever I hear a spruce guitar I am blown away by the bright sound of it and I want one. And then I hear the cedar, and when it comes down to putting down my own money I would pick the cedar, again and again.
Also, if you are looking to keep it for a long time, the cedar will serve its purpose, while you would have trouble tuning the spruce top as time goes by. I am a big proponent of cedar tops
my reading and conversations with top-level luthiers is that spruce opens up over time and cedar is pretty much as it will remain early on (after a few months to open up). I feel spruce (especially european spruce) is the most complex and clear tone if the 2 guitars are the same model/maker. But the wood quality and luthier skill is what makes a good guitar and the top is most of the quality of tone (assuming well braced).
I own a cedar top TP-30 and how he described the sound is accurate. It envelops the player in a full lively sound. This specific guitar generates a LOT of volume and sustain with minimal effort and truly sounds incredible. The video is very representative of the sound of my example but of course it will sound even more amazing when playing it at home. Glad I chose cedar but Pavan spruce is pretty special too if you read about how much care they take to find their tonewoods.
Sound is a combination of technique, experience, and personal inspiration. There are many tonal colors on both Spruce/Cedar that imitate the other tone wood, at times, depending on your attack and where you play in relation to the sound hole. However, I prefer to distinguish Spruce as a clearly defined sound vs. Cedar which is a more rounded sound. Also, choice of strings based on tension, materials can also effect/change overall sound on any guitar. I use D'Addario EJ46 HT on my two brighter cedar guitars and Augustine Blue HT with carbon trebles on my darker sounding Cedar. I play mostly 19th Century/Bossa/Jazz.
I’d like to argue that the type of guitar sounds best depending on the era. I’d like to think that Romantic music and Spanish is best played on a cedar guitar, whereas spruce guitar is better suited for Baroque music and German.
Thanks for the video. Don't see many Pavan guitars in shops in New England. How does it compare against other instruments like the Saers A50 or Kenny Hill World Player Series
Hi Richard, we only sell our guitars directly, we do not sell through music stores. Perhaps you could come across a used one in a shop. The Pavan TP-30 is a wonderful recital/concert quality instrument. Please read around the web and see what others are saying or have said. All of our guitars come with a 7-day trial period, hope this helps!
Dear Ladies / Sirs, I hope you are able to tell me something more about a Pavan guitar that says "Soundboard built by Thomas Prisloe, Prisloe guitars" So No TP-30 model number but Thomas Prisloe signature Model Series 6 and a New York adress. As for the choice between spruce and cedar: My guitar sounds more mellow though it still has to be played in: Unbelievable as it has been hardly played but from the year 2008. And it is a spruce topped guitar. B.t.w. Kenneth is playing "Maria" by the Spanish composer Francesco Tarrega a.o.
One of the most Spanish sounding orchestral pieces for guitar: Concierto d' Aranjuez. Joaquin Rodrigo.The Concierto de Aranjuez was inspired by the gardens at Palacio Real de Aranjuez, the spring resort palace and gardens built by Philip II in the last half of the 16th century and rebuilt in the middle of the 18th century by Ferdinand VI.
It took me 20 years to find a couple of guitars from the 60's that sound absolutely amazing and play very well. Both have massive cracks (repaired) in the top, play wear, etc. Aesthetics is absolutely meaningless to me. Tone is everything. I even held onto a guitar that played horribly because the tone was amazing. But now I sit on a pair of grail guitars and all the rest have become history. The search is over. At last.
I bought one because I could not afford a Hauser replica made by various other builders. Mine, a spruce, was very tight at first. Two years later i compared it to an $8000 Hauser replica, maybe it was not exactly fair because the TP 30 is not a Hauser or a Fleta. Others in that music shop had the guitars confused and thought the TP 30 was the high grade guitar. I probably could have put the expensive guitar in my case and walked out with it. I made them look into the guitar so they would not think that I was pulling a fast one on them. Now years later, I would not trade it for any spruce top guitar that I have ever heard.
Richard Tucker Yes many guitar makers and players of spruce guitars say you have to wait longer for a spruce guitar to 'open up' - about a two year period depending on how often it is played. Only then will you know what its true tone is. Cedars dont alter much after the first few months. However you do get some spruce guitars (usually very expensive) that seem to sound 'opened up' from the beginning - but you dont know what the maker has done with the woods and the finished guitar before it is ready for sale (some blast loud music into it for long periods!). Despite all this though even in its 'young' stage it should still be a pleasing sound to your ear if you are paying a fair amount of money for it.
There is another more important difference: Cedar tends to give a warm tone and immediately "settles" but as a player you have less influence on the tone you are producing contrary to a good spruce guitar. And indeed cedar gives you a bit of a "camouflage" regarding the higher frequencies so unwanted finger sounds are not that present. Being the more trebly sounding choice of wood, spruce indeed cuts better through a mix and has a bigger projection. But in the end I love my cedar topped guitars as much as I do my spruce topped ones.
Bravo pour le jeu ! Il est difficile de trancher car les 2 bois ont des qualités différentes (l'épicea projette avec plus de force mais moins de clarté...?)
Both are beautiful woods that produce equally beautiful sounds... and of course, a lot of factors go into the choice of cedar vs. spruce. For my own personal style of playing, choice of repertoire, sound, etc. I prefer the clarity and "lightness" of notes of a good spruce top guitar. However, when it comes to listening to others play concerts, I much prefer cedar top guitars... the reason being is spruce top guitars sound very loud and have a more "direct" tone that seems almost effortless to produce, but in a concert-hall type of echo environment, the cedar tone seems to "shine" in a more mysterious way that really draws me into the music more than the bright spruce tone.
I find that playing two guitars made by the same luthier/builder made with different woods, but built the same way are very difficult to hear or feel any big differences when playing. Different types of guitars made with the same wood combinations but built of different shapes and size sound very differently.
I liked spruce more. It has this beautiful singing sustain. Cedar seems to have less of it, and it sounds a bit dull and muted in comparison. On the other hand, when I listen to this much cheaper cedar Yamaha ua-cam.com/video/mDm9mHePNdQ/v-deo.html&feature=emb_logo I am completely sold on cedar. So rich and beautiful and warm and singing. Enchanting. And I am not saying that Yamaha sounds better than TP-30. Not at all. But that guy, Roman Zorkin, and perhaps the placement of the microphones managed to convey the beauty of cedar so well. I have to assume, though, that the key factor here is strings. With Cedar, you should use carbon strings and then you get the best of both worlds. I bet he used D'Addario Pro-Arte Carbon with that Yamaha - because he uses them always. Not only carbon gave a spruce-like clarity and sparkle and singing to the voices, but also the Dynacore basses added to the richness of the sound.
Both are very good. For me, the spruce had a fraction more brightness and resonance. The cedar was more plain sounding, though warmer and more intimate.
I also have a Fleta copy that is cedar, but it is as bright, bold as any guitar I have ever heard, with crystalline high tones and a very clear but deep bass. Glass bells to bolts of thunder when playing Koyunbaba, Oddly enough, I most of the time prefer to play Bach on my, bright for a cedar, Oribe.
I like the spruce like in this video more, but your playing certainly shows music 99% is still your guitar skills and 1% type of guitar. Awesome playing!
My spruce TP 30 is over ten years old with many many hours of playing. Even with basic Augustine strings it sounds better to me than either of those. Larger tone in the trebles and clearer in the basses. Over time the guitar relaxes into its job and allows the top to work more.
Also in this manner I will thank Mr. Meyer for forwarding my E-mail to Tom Prisloe regarding the "strange" signature model Series with the addition of a "6". The problem has been solved. While importing the Spanish made PAVAN guitars it happened due to transportation that a few of them arrived with a cracked soundboard. In 2008 Tom Prisloe made some new soundboards with the rosette of his entirely handbuilt instruments and provided 6 PAVAN guitars with a new top and a new fingerboard as you have to remove the fingerboard in order to be able to change the top. These guitars are easily distinguishable as the label has been hand signed as is the inner soundboard. A really great sounding instrument!
cedar top has a more rounder, warmer tone than the spruce. Instead spruce has a little more brilliant, percusive and clear sound than its counterpart. I think cedar fits more in the classical and fingerstyle and spruce for strumming in Folklore.
I think the main thing here is Spruce is a little more durable, whereas cedar is not, Although Cedar is warmer, and kinda nicer actually, but more likely to crack, etc.
Cedar reinforces the lows more than any spruce. Spruce will almost always favor the highs, but Engelmann spruce is a "middle of the road" kind of tonewood.
For Classical I would always recommend Cedar top. Spruce is too happy and too bright. Also it's about the tone, cedar fits better the classical sound, I can get transported to Madrid when I hear it, with cedar not so much. However if you are into smooth jazz etc go for cedar you want the brightness and the better attack.
damned.....i really like my NEW cedar guitar for sound....but........my old spruce guitr its faster and sharper............eh...........and i see on video that its true difference between them
This will help:
1:44 and 2:21
2:54 and 3:38
3:18 and 4:01
4:23 and 4:59
Thank You!
My ears choose Cedar. The sound is more fuller for the pieces which Professor Meyer plays. Thank you for sharing this. :)
In this particular instance comparing these 2 guitars, the Cedar for me is objectively better. And I didn't want to rush to any conclusion. Neither am I saying that Cedar in all instances is better. But I agree 100% with your analysis.
Whenever I hear a spruce guitar I am blown away by the bright sound of it and I want one. And then I hear the cedar, and when it comes down to putting down my own money I would pick the cedar, again and again.
Am probably going to pick up one of these TP-30s at one time ....
Also, if you are looking to keep it for a long time, the cedar will serve its purpose, while you would have trouble tuning the spruce top as time goes by. I am a big proponent of cedar tops
my reading and conversations with top-level luthiers is that spruce opens up over time and cedar is pretty much as it will remain early on (after a few months to open up). I feel spruce (especially european spruce) is the most complex and clear tone if the 2 guitars are the same model/maker. But the wood quality and luthier skill is what makes a good guitar and the top is most of the quality of tone (assuming well braced).
Ken!!!!
So great to see you on the tube!
Excelente comparación. Me gusta mucho la tapa de cedro!!!
This is the most honest comparison I've come across.
I own a cedar top TP-30 and how he described the sound is accurate. It envelops the player in a full lively sound. This specific guitar generates a LOT of volume and sustain with minimal effort and truly sounds incredible. The video is very representative of the sound of my example but of course it will sound even more amazing when playing it at home. Glad I chose cedar but Pavan spruce is pretty special too if you read about how much care they take to find their tonewoods.
oh wow, thank you my friend...informative and clear, great presentation...good luck, subscribed.
Very nice playing and great consistency of technique.
for this kind of music I vote for spruce - cleaner, ceder seems to have colors but too much bass and it feels a bit messy and a bit dull for me
both spruce and cedar sound nice. Each has its own characters but I like cedar and is warmer.
Cedar for me! I just love how much more lively they sound!
I’m so excited to start this journey.
Wow.....just wow....both for the sound of both guitars and the play
What song/composer is the second piece please? Thank you for the video, very helpful!
Love that spruce sound
Sound is a combination of technique, experience, and personal inspiration. There are many tonal colors on both Spruce/Cedar that imitate the other tone wood, at times, depending on your attack and where you play in relation to the sound hole. However, I prefer to distinguish Spruce as a clearly defined sound vs. Cedar which is a more rounded sound. Also, choice of strings based on tension, materials can also effect/change overall sound on any guitar. I use D'Addario EJ46 HT on my two brighter cedar guitars and Augustine Blue HT with carbon trebles on my darker sounding Cedar. I play mostly 19th Century/Bossa/Jazz.
I have a Pavan TP30 cedar and love its sound. Trying is believing!
wow cedar is so beautiful sound.. hpow much cost a cedar?
Great playing! I love my TP-30. I've been through many different types of strings, what make and tension do you prefer?
Thanks.
I’d like to argue that the type of guitar sounds best depending on the era. I’d like to think that Romantic music and Spanish is best played on a cedar guitar, whereas spruce guitar is better suited for Baroque music and German.
agreed
Unbelievably nice peace of Bach - beautiful on both guitars.What is it, and when I could find it?
The finish on my Pavan has faded. What to do ?
Nice playing, nice comparison. 🤘
Thanks for the video. Don't see many Pavan guitars in shops in New England. How does it compare against other instruments like the Saers A50 or Kenny Hill World Player Series
Hi Richard, we only sell our guitars directly, we do not sell through music stores. Perhaps you could come across a used one in a shop. The Pavan TP-30 is a wonderful recital/concert quality instrument. Please read around the web and see what others are saying or have said. All of our guitars come with a 7-day trial period, hope this helps!
Very useful advice, thanks!
CEDAR HAS MORE COLOR IN IS SOUND MORE SOUL
AGREE. Reminds me of the cello.
Now I know I want a cedar guitar!
To me they both sound great. If forced to pick one, I'd pick the TP-30 with the cedar and rosewood combination.
1:46 Spruce
2:21 Cedar
2:55 Spruce
3:38 Cedar
4:24 Spruce
5:00 Cedar
Dear Ladies / Sirs, I hope you are able to tell me something more about a Pavan guitar that says
"Soundboard built by Thomas Prisloe, Prisloe guitars" So No TP-30 model number but Thomas Prisloe
signature Model Series 6 and a New York adress. As for the choice between spruce and cedar:
My guitar sounds more mellow though it still has to be played in: Unbelievable as it has been
hardly played but from the year 2008. And it is a spruce topped guitar. B.t.w. Kenneth is playing "Maria"
by the Spanish composer Francesco Tarrega a.o.
One of the most Spanish sounding orchestral pieces for guitar:
Concierto d' Aranjuez. Joaquin Rodrigo.The Concierto de Aranjuez
was inspired by the gardens at Palacio Real de Aranjuez, the spring
resort palace and gardens built by Philip II in the last half of the 16th
century and rebuilt in the middle of the 18th century by Ferdinand VI.
I wonder if we would have another dimension if an early music, like a Dowland, is played on both guitars.
Thanks Ken! Really appreciate that!
Cedar sounds great and rounder here. But I think spruce will cut through the mix better if you are playing on a band situation
Now THAT’S how you make a good comparison video!
It took me 20 years to find a couple of guitars from the 60's that sound absolutely amazing and play very well. Both have massive cracks (repaired) in the top, play wear, etc. Aesthetics is absolutely meaningless to me. Tone is everything. I even held onto a guitar that played horribly because the tone was amazing. But now I sit on a pair of grail guitars and all the rest have become history. The search is over. At last.
pls tell us full detail on what were the vintage guitars you talking about.
Does anyone know the name of the first music he is playing? Have a nice day!!!!!
I bought one because I could not afford a Hauser replica made by various other builders. Mine, a spruce, was very tight at first. Two years later i compared it to an $8000 Hauser replica, maybe it was not exactly fair because the TP 30 is not a Hauser or a Fleta. Others in that music shop had the guitars confused and thought the TP 30 was the high grade guitar. I probably could have put the expensive guitar in my case and walked out with it. I made them look into the guitar so they would not think that I was pulling a fast one on them. Now years later, I would not trade it for any spruce top guitar that I have ever heard.
Richard Tucker
Yes many guitar makers and players of spruce guitars say you have to wait longer for a spruce guitar to 'open up' - about a two year period depending on how often it is played. Only then will you know what its true tone is. Cedars dont alter much after the first few months. However you do get some spruce guitars (usually very expensive) that seem to sound 'opened up' from the beginning - but you dont know what the maker has done with the woods and the finished guitar before it is ready for sale (some blast loud music into it for long periods!). Despite all this though even in its 'young' stage it should still be a pleasing sound to your ear if you are paying a fair amount of money for it.
There is another more important difference: Cedar tends to give a warm tone and immediately
"settles" but as a player you have less influence on the tone you are producing contrary to a good
spruce guitar. And indeed cedar gives you a bit of a "camouflage" regarding the higher frequencies
so unwanted finger sounds are not that present. Being the more trebly sounding choice of wood,
spruce indeed cuts better through a mix and has a bigger projection. But in the end I love my
cedar topped guitars as much as I do my spruce topped ones.
There are very different types of spruce: Sitka, Engelmann, etc, and they sound quite different. Which one
Great video, thank you, I definitely prefer the cedar. Cheers.
the cedar has a warmer deeper bass. the spruce has brighter trebles.
I'd like to have both of them for playing different music styles. But, the only question is: how can I make so much money to buy them?
Bravo pour le jeu !
Il est difficile de trancher car les 2 bois ont des qualités différentes (l'épicea projette avec plus de force mais moins de clarté...?)
What is the name of that flamenco piece?
Both are beautiful woods that produce equally beautiful sounds... and of course, a lot of factors go into the choice of cedar vs. spruce.
For my own personal style of playing, choice of repertoire, sound, etc. I prefer the clarity and "lightness" of notes of a good spruce top guitar.
However, when it comes to listening to others play concerts, I much prefer cedar top guitars... the reason being is spruce top guitars sound very loud and have a more "direct" tone that seems almost effortless to produce, but in a concert-hall type of echo environment, the cedar tone seems to "shine" in a more mysterious way that really draws me into the music more than the bright spruce tone.
I find that playing two guitars made by the same luthier/builder made with different woods, but built the same way are very difficult to hear or feel any big differences when playing. Different types of guitars made with the same wood combinations but built of different shapes and size sound very differently.
I liked spruce more. It has this beautiful singing sustain. Cedar seems to have less of it, and it sounds a bit dull and muted in comparison.
On the other hand, when I listen to this much cheaper cedar Yamaha
ua-cam.com/video/mDm9mHePNdQ/v-deo.html&feature=emb_logo
I am completely sold on cedar. So rich and beautiful and warm and singing. Enchanting.
And I am not saying that Yamaha sounds better than TP-30. Not at all. But that guy, Roman Zorkin, and perhaps the placement of the microphones managed to convey the beauty of cedar so well. I have to assume, though, that the key factor here is strings. With Cedar, you should use carbon strings and then you get the best of both worlds. I bet he used D'Addario Pro-Arte Carbon with that Yamaha - because he uses them always. Not only carbon gave a spruce-like clarity and sparkle and singing to the voices, but also the Dynacore basses added to the richness of the sound.
Spruce guitar, more interesting for jazz and bossa nova. Cedar guitar, for romantic music. How about having both guitars?
I love 2 differents guitars.
Whats is the song 2:00 name ?
Both are very good. For me, the spruce had a fraction more brightness and resonance. The cedar was more plain sounding, though warmer and more intimate.
I also have a Fleta copy that is cedar, but it is as bright, bold as any guitar I have ever heard, with crystalline high tones and a very clear but deep bass. Glass bells to bolts of thunder when playing Koyunbaba, Oddly enough, I most of the time prefer to play Bach on my, bright for a cedar, Oribe.
Thank you, nicely done!
I like the spruce like in this video more, but your playing certainly shows music 99% is still your guitar skills and 1% type of guitar. Awesome playing!
Both Beautiful
My spruce TP 30 is over ten years old with many many hours of playing. Even with basic Augustine strings it sounds better to me than either of those. Larger tone in the trebles and clearer in the basses. Over time the guitar relaxes into its job and allows the top to work more.
I am now a believer in cedar.
I enjoy both! Please name the 1st 2 pieces, great to know last is “Maria”! Thanks
Prelude from J.S.Bach's suite BWV 998 and 1st movement from Joaquin Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez
Andreas 369 Greatly appreciated, thank you!
great video, lot of good info. Thanks!
thanks Kenneth..great review.
what's the song at 4:16?? can anyone help me? XD
Anyone know the name of that Tarrega piece? Love to learn it.
The Tarrega piece is called "MARIA".
Thank you.
I think I like cedar the best. Both are great, though.
i love the spruce sound ) always have but cedar still good
Also in this manner I will thank Mr. Meyer for forwarding my E-mail to Tom Prisloe
regarding the "strange" signature model Series with the addition of a "6".
The problem has been solved. While importing the Spanish made PAVAN guitars
it happened due to transportation that a few of them arrived with a cracked
soundboard. In 2008 Tom Prisloe made some new soundboards with the rosette
of his entirely handbuilt instruments and provided 6 PAVAN guitars with a new top
and a new fingerboard as you have to remove the fingerboard in order to be able
to change the top. These guitars are easily distinguishable as the label has been
hand signed as is the inner soundboard. A really great sounding instrument!
Prof's got some chops. Nice!
Nicely played ！
I'll take spruce for flamenco, cedar for classical.
Well played 👏
I love cedar tops.
excellent touch
I beg to add that the musical piece itse3lf, has an obvious affect on the results from the instrument, but cedar has always been my choice.
Not Sure?
The notes from the cedar seem more clear to me and not as piercing in the high notes.
cedar top has a more rounder, warmer tone than the spruce. Instead spruce has a little more brilliant, percusive and clear sound than its counterpart. I think cedar fits more in the classical and fingerstyle and spruce for strumming in Folklore.
I think the cedar sounded softer, sweeter.
Cedar better for recording, maybe spruce better for live playing because less boomy equal less feedback. Buy both
I think the main thing here is Spruce is a little more durable, whereas cedar is not, Although Cedar is warmer, and kinda nicer actually, but more likely to crack, etc.
i dont think that i can tell the difference if blind tested. Cedar dents easily, so spruce will look new longer.
CEDAR RULES THE WORLD 👍
spruce got deeper low bass in E string compared to cedar.
4:38 vs 5:14 the bass is louder on the cedar. but i think he just played that string louder
Cedar reinforces the lows more than any spruce. Spruce will almost always favor the highs, but Engelmann spruce is a "middle of the road" kind of tonewood.
Maravi Yoso
ah cool !
wow.! thank you.
For Classical I would always recommend Cedar top. Spruce is too happy and too bright. Also it's about the tone, cedar fits better the classical sound, I can get transported to Madrid when I hear it, with cedar not so much. However if you are into smooth jazz etc go for cedar you want the brightness and the better attack.
wow, that is clear as a bell.
Red wine vs white wine....no best.
damned.....i really like my NEW cedar guitar for sound....but........my old spruce guitr its faster and sharper............eh...........and i see on video that its true difference between them
Difficult choice... I prefer cedar...........
Cedar for me too. 🤛🤛🤛🤛
Weird isn't it - I prefer Spruce for both look and sound and no, I can't afford both.
The cedar sounds much more elegant. The spruce just sounds like its all brightness
Although in hindsight, depends what kind of song you are playing
I will take both please,wrap and send to me please
Gostei mais da de pavê do que da de cigar.
buy both. they r different in look n sound.
abeto para flamenco y cedro para el resto
Cedro..... nettamente superiore all'abete...più caldo più armonici ecc...ecc..ecc..
Max
Spruce
Cedar has a much more consistent bass.
No need to sell your soul to one or the other: get both!
I can't tell the difference