So much work on this one and so many hours non-stop to have this done by today. Be advised, animations may not be correct + audio is not in real time. Anyway, I hope you find it useful to visualize the situation. From these lines, KUDOS to the air traffic controllers and the emergency services for their job. No delays were applied except for both affected aircraft and the A318 and B757 behind who had to wait for the planes to clear the area and taxi for their takeoff.
The plane was not, TECHNICALLY on the ground. It had lifted off just before impact. Also, he was moving at takeoff speed. Even so, there were survivors of that crash. So it was STILL not as bad as it could have been.
Eric Taylor True. Even though ground collisions can be fatal as much as air ones. Still with Towers controls etc the chances of that happening are very slim.
It always makes me happy to see pilots and ATC talking calmly to figure out a solution when the average car driver would be yelling and pointing fingers.
You should listen in on Orlando Executive and enjoy the missed approach and go around situations. The controllers really get pissed off because it messes up operations at Orlando International to the south when an aircraft doesn't carry through with the landing at Executive.
4:32 'Ladies and Gentlemen..." "this is your captain speaking..." "if you look outside the left hand side... You will see what happens when two wings touch...." " Your flight has now been cancelled." "Thank you for flying with....."
I'm always amazed with ATC gives about 17 instructions in one giant sentence to a pilot. How can you remember all that? I was always terrified flying into large airports for exactly that reason.
@Pop Films All fuel used in a delay is a concern as the minimum journey plus safety margin fuel is loaded. Unlike boats where we load enough for a return to departure port or another port. should there be a problem not getting into original destination.
@@megabyte112 No Shit Sherlock.... that's what I said. He was the aircraft behind the Egypt Air flight. He was making radio calls trying to see if there was away to squeeze around him to get to the runway. Like I said, he wanted to get the hell outta there.
Imagine the nightmare this little incident caused for the passengers and airlines. Especially because they are away from their home base and no extra airplanes.
Lol! I’m from NY and that is a very good idea. I hate flying to JFK, always so many delays and problems. I even had a pilot joke once that he was glad we only had a 15 minute delay and that was good for JFK. Last time I was there we had to wait for 20 minutes because there was no ground crew there to bring our plane in
That's the way I did it before but I'm trying new things. I've worked a lot to have planes painted on company colors but I've thought of a new thing for better visualization ;)
@@VASAviation I have to say, its a lot of work going into these animations and audio sync ups. Company colors is definitely good and provides a kind of realism. If I may make a suggestion, can you add the taxi and run way letters on the animations. Although, its possible to id from the audio, having the letters would make it easier to follow along. :) Keep up the good work.
I'm finding some of the text colors (light blue and red) very hard to read on my android. Trying to find a way to improve their visibility, but can't replace my old eyes.
It might've just been me, but tower controller sounded genuinely relieved to talk to someone who could give him pertinent information quickly and concisely.
You can hear it in the way he issues runway clearances at 11:09 vs 15:47 . 94 gets slow, clear instructions, 99 gets the rapid-fire. So satisfying listening to two pros on the same wavelength getting shit done.
@generic username - I was taught that our brain is slower at understanding negatives. KEEP MOVING for instance works better than DON'T STOP. You first hear the word stop and want to respond to that before the 'don't' sinks in. I think the ATC should phrase their sentences better.
@@ih82r8 Casual woman response, but they are not that big, especially for an a330 and a 777 next to each other, the controller should of made him wait on K1 not the ILS holding point.
Apart from the collision itself, this is a classic example of professional radio work and competence from all involved. I'm actually impressed with JFK here for once.
This airport is notorious. According to Kennedy Steve you can only do control successfully for about 60 minutes ; 75 max. (He has an interview on here with Capt - Joe I think ?) . It's exhausting and never ending. I feel like the learning curve is steep.
Layman here. How could this have been avoided (aside from having more cautious pilots)? Could ATC have instructed Virgin to pull all the way forward on the run-up pad in order to deal with the technical problem, then instructed everyone else to use K2 to access the runway? Or would some of those planes have needed the full length of the runway to takeoff?
They instructed the Virgin pilot to pull over as far as he could. Obviously that wasn’t enough. Egyptair should’ve refused to move until the Virgin aircraft was removed or wing walkers were provided. Then again, if you’ve ever driven in Egypt, nothing they do would surprise you!
I really enjoy your videos since I have a deep interest in aviation. Your visuals make your videos much more entertaining and informative than a video of just watching the captions of the recordings. Keep up the good work!
tiny innocent a318 stuck in all this mess ;-) Interesting: BAW2 made it across the pond in one go, despite being stuck on the taxiway for an hour, burning extra fuel...
The BAW2 pilot shuts off the engines pretty soon after the incident, which is why the ATC then instructs him and the Aer Lingus pilot at 16:30 to ‘start up’ and advise him when they are ready to start taxiing.
Yeah his first call he was essentially clearing himself till the controller schooled him. You would think people spend their entire shift in the airport would understand the operating procedures.
Sounded like Car 94 needs training on radio procedures. Too many excess words irrelevant to what he's trying to ask/communicate. Distracting, confusing, wasting time.
@@Alex-us2vw well here in 2023 we had that poor ramp worker sucked into an engine after two (2) safety meetings about the plane not being able to stop engines till the ramp hooked up the electricity.
all the coordination needed for this accident is incredible! the vehicles 🚗 need as much clearance to maneuver as the planes do - maybe even more. ATC, ground, and emergency vehicles did an incredible job with all those instructions! the animation is a big help and well done. thank you so much for the great editing, etc. which you did for us out here. :) 🌷✈️🛩 🚑
You would really think the airlines would inform their employees about something like that. We need something like carfax for planes and call it wingfax.
Thanks so much for your very dedicated effort going into putting the videos together. It’s greatly appreciated. I wonder what the process for getting the two aircraft repaired entails. Off hand I think it’s possible to ferry the EgyptAir aircraft to a site that happens to repair body damage, or Boeing etc. the Virgin aircraft isn’t so lucky judging by the winglet and other wing pieces sitting in the pickup. I’ve been on a 757 (HP-US) that had an engine failure on taxi at Milwaukee. W/o any shops or mechanics at the airport NW handled the situation and upon receiving another V2500 from Phoenix, I suppose NW handled the replacement. Funny thing, the most trouble I’ve ever had regarding twin aircraft engines has involved the V2500. In Phoenix or Vegas heat failures due to some unexpected defect were frequent, I had two in addition to the MKE problem. An early morning Seattle-Phoenix flight had both a V2500 issue and an APU failure. I believe that the Rolls powered 757’s outnumbered International Aero V2500’s 2 to 1 yet the problems were many times more frequent. It’s weird looking up engine data on the IAE lists no Boeing products using the V2500: maybe I’m confusing V2500 powered 321’s and RR powered 757’s, old age is a real bitch. You don’t lose memory it just gets scrambled a little
I was actually on the flight radar 24 app and I was looking at JFK and saw VA and EA on the same taxiway and it looked like the VA was next to the Egypt. I wasn’t sure what was going on but no one was moving and it was an open runway they could’ve turned onto. Now I realize what happened lol.
People don't realize that how much work and effort is required to fly and land an aircraft, much respect to ATC operators coordinating multi tasks in the ground and air
Who's the rocket scientist who designed a run-up pad without a taxi line so planes taxiing on K will clip wingtips with a plane parked on the pad? This is a huge operations error and design oversight. That pad and taxiway are new concrete.
puma.will. pounce I would have expected the First Officer on the Egypt Air flight to be very much aware of the Virgin parking on the pad to his right even if he was engaged in check list call outs.Just saying
What does awareness have to do with wingtip clearance? The EGYPT AIR thought the Virgin was parked where he was suppose to be, and there are no restrictions listed for 777-300ER on taxiway K. This is the fault of JFK airport. Secondary fault goes to Virgin for eyeballing where to put their nosewheel on an unmarked holding pad.
Awareness is being able to acknowledge and react to what is happening around you in your ambient environment and not to concentrate on one single work piece.
Usually, the aircraft doing the runup will keep their place in line while they do it, and any aircraft passing someone needs to make sure they can squeeze by. This isn't a "safe parking zone," it's a place where aircraft can swing wide and point their engines somewhere safe. There's an instructional video where a CFI is taxiing a Cherokee (low wing) in line behind a Skyhawk (high wing), both angled on the taxiway for runup. The Skyhawk is taking his sweet time, and our man in the Cherokee, wanting to get on with our lesson, decides to pass because his wing will pass under the Skyhawk's. As he's taking off, the tower asks the next plane in line (another high-wing) if he wants to pass the Skyhawk. He says no because he probably can't get around the wing. Virgin should have pulled up and off a bit farther, and probably angled the nose a bit back toward Kilo to pull the wing out of the way. Egypt should have pulled over to the left (looks like there's some room towards Kilo 2) to be sure and clear Virgin. It may even have been Virgin's intention to leave the far end of the pad open for Egypt to come back to the right and make a wide left turn onto Kilo 1.
Jim Stanley Yeah, it does seem like that would have been the best thing to do in this situation. JFK was built in the 1950's, so the layout of it leaves very much to be desired....lol! Pilots need to really think about their actions, when navigating around ol' JFK Airport.
14:51 that's the result of using 'when' and 'where' together and then later jusy using 'where'. Radio chatter can lead to this confusing situation. Pilots are already in a high stress situation and controller had to be a little bit more precise and use another wording. Is clear the pilots got the wrong call there and this lead to pilots getting more confused and controller getting angry.. Should have said like, hold short on bravo and Advise when you know where you're parking or something like that
There was another video here somewhere where the ATC used exactly the same sentence "where do you enter the ramp" and the pilot had no a clue what the controller was saying. I agree the ATC should probably rephrase the question about the ramp/gate if it did not work the first time.
Yeah, seems silly to repeat the same question over and over when alternatives are fairly simple... "at what location will you be entering the ramp?" or "which intersection will you enter the ramp from?"
rzero21 this controller is very rude and don’t understand how the pilots under stress. This rude controller not his first time to speak like this. He did so before with Air China and u can search it. Just write Air China communication with jfk ground. U will find that he is so rude. He forgot that his job is to serve and insure the safety of the flight with the pilots. He suppose to be short , sharp , clear ( not angry). I am a pilot. I know a such feeling. JFK airport is a nightmare for pilots because a lot of traffic, complicated taxing procedures and a lot of communications with the tower and GND.
Uh, minimum debris and keep thrust low??? WTF? Don't these ops people know a screw can get sucked into an engine at idle speed and cause significant damage? I would refuse to taxi over that area.
Completely agree, all airfield movement areas should be fod free and fully serviceable before allowing movements to commence. Ops vehicles R/T wasn't the greatest however bear in mind this was a stressful situation for the airport authority/ops teams.
That gal in car 99 had her act together! Virgin could've moved a bit further over but Egypt was the responsible party. They could've asked Speedbird behind them to watch their starboard wing if it looked problematic.
Fascinating, I didn't know the tower also directed the cars to cross runways and such. I love watching the cars dart around all over the place when I'm at the airport, but never knew they were also talking to tower.
There's an older ground collision video on this channel between a 737 and 757, witnessed by Virgin 4C at JFK. I just thought it was a neat (?) coincidence
We all miss KS but take note that the ramp is working very very efficiently now at JFK. I know it's a rule they have to retire but he was very sharp. Maybe bi-annual dementia exams should be used in stead of age retire outs.
I happened to be waiting to take off last night at JFK while this was happening. There was quite a queue of aircraft waiting on Zulu and even on 22L waiting for this to be resolved and the aircraft to taxi back to the ramp.
I mean if the EgyptAir B777 is dead nuts on the taxiway line (which they seem to be) wouldn't it be Virgin's fault for not going farther to the right? If Virgin A330 was also following the taxiway line then I guess it's ground controller's fault for instructing Virgin A330 to go right to give way to EgyptAir, assuming it's his job to know how widely separated those 2 taxiway lines are and whether both the B777 and the A330 could fit there next to each other? I don't know who's fault this is.
Can I ask anyone who's knowldgeable... What is the process for dealing with non life threatening shunts like this with aircraft? Will the passengers have to be sent on later flights? Do the companies exchange insurance details? Is the port authority liable at all? Do the planes get repaired and checked before going out again? Do the pilots take a different flight or stay longer at the accident city location or does it just depend of where and when they are next needed to fly? Sorry for so many questions - just interested. :-)
The aircraft are grounded until repaired. The self loading cargo... er "passengers," will be re loaded on another aircraft or rerouted as this is the airline's fault. Insurance will Just think, after all that attention and *still* a Virgin... sort this out. The port authority may be liable. The insurance will determine. The airline will decide what they want to do with the pilots.
Jo - In this case, Virgin Airlines and Egypt Air will likely ask the Port Authority (which owns the airport) to pay for damage to both aircraft since it was the airport's fault for not having a taxi line on the run-up pad where the Virgin A330 parked which forced the Virgin captain to essentially guess where he should park. I've seen airlines request the airport to pay for damages before in similar incidents.
I'm proud of my ex bf from 30 years ago that is a DFW controller and we were such kids just teens and how he's ATC and even maybe saved my life flying into Dallas, whilst I'm an RN saving anybody without air.
WAIT! I know people with 5 cameras on their RV. You cannot tell me we can't put 10 outside cameras to cycle through on an airliner. C'mon. They can't see if the engine is on fire? If the rudder is working? If they have wing clearance? This is child's play, and overlooked. I will never understand this. Because it is stupid not to have multiple views of the aircraft. Period.
@@6z0 Indeed. And then also cost of equipment to watch them, complexity of SOPs to monitor them, maintenance ... If airlines could dispense with the costs of wingwalkers and some of the other ground crew then they certainly would.
Correct me if I’m wrong here but shouldn’t ATC have stopped all traffic when they knew the first plane was having issues instead of telling the second plane to continue to taxi?! Essentially the pilots all did what they were told to do and that resulted in their wingtips colliding. So basically that ATC guy is now unemployed.
4:18 I would have loved to see the look on the pilots face when the egyptair hit his wing *_Tow..._* Also, The Egyptair just clipped our wing, 4:37 *_Clipped_*
Seriously? The small plane worries them regarding wingtip clearance, with plenty of people on site to look at whether it fits? Generally it would have been great if Virgin had moved further ahead, with K1 and K2 being so close. Great job at blocking both. Leaving small debris is odd. Risky, I'd assume. Not just because of the engines, but also the tires. A busy airport like JFK should have a kind of vacuum cleaner vehicle that can render a taxiway as clean as it can be.
When wing tip clearance is not assured it is the PIC responsibility to ensure it is safe to continue. Ultimately the Egyptair shouldn't have continued taxi.
There's another VASA video where a pilot is in the same situation and stops the airplane (with wingwalkers) due to safety concerns and questions the ATC. The ATC says something along the lines of "oh so you control ground now?"
I would be more than willing to bet that they were too far back to see actually how close they are. As someone else posted they should of had wingtip walkers come out to check clearance.
Well the only way they could have assured wing tip clearance was if their line of sight was at Eygpt air's right wingtip level looking straight down parallel to the taxi way as from their position parallax prevents them from seeing those distances accruately.
![[REAL ATC] American A333 | ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS SICK in flight!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D9JQ-tnc4uQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] American A333 | ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS SICK in flight!](/img/tr.png)
So much work on this one and so many hours non-stop to have this done by today.
Be advised, animations may not be correct + audio is not in real time. Anyway, I hope you find it useful to visualize the situation. From these lines, KUDOS to the air traffic controllers and the emergency services for their job. No delays were applied except for both affected aircraft and the A318 and B757 behind who had to wait for the planes to clear the area and taxi for their takeoff.
VASAviation - thanks
VAS Thanks for all the time and effort to make this video
Very interesting, thanks for the hard work.
10:05 he actually says, "Yes, just be advised *The Port Authority plans* to tow you back to the terminal...
VASAviation - Thanks for all your hard work and getting this out to us so fast!
If you're going to colide with another airplane, there is no place better to do so as on the ground.
Tenerife's 747s do not agree!
The plane was not, TECHNICALLY on the ground. It had lifted off just before impact. Also, he was moving at takeoff speed.
Even so, there were survivors of that crash. So it was STILL not as bad as it could have been.
Mohammad Asadulla Shareef He got a point there. So think about it? Whats worse? mid air collision or ground collision!!
Your chances are much better on the ground. It eliminates the second, very often worse secondary impact, with the ground.
Eric Taylor True. Even though ground collisions can be fatal as much as air ones. Still with Towers controls etc the chances of that happening are very slim.
It always makes me happy to see pilots and ATC talking calmly to figure out a solution when the average car driver would be yelling and pointing fingers.
If i was the EgyptAir pilot i would start seeking after a new job. Xd
they got telephony class and of course attitude check training as well I guess, not every drivers.
You should listen in on Orlando Executive and enjoy the missed approach and go around situations. The controllers really get pissed off because it messes up operations at Orlando International to the south when an aircraft doesn't carry through with the landing at Executive.
Well, here in Texas, at least one of the participants would be on the pavement bleeding out.
You have a different perspective on things when you earn 15k per month. Things seem... simpler.
Now the EgyptAir has to pull to the side to exchange insurance papers so they can be off on their way.
Excuse me sir, I believe we must exchange insurance information
Ik man that's my home airline!!!
@@JoeyLovesTrains EgyptAir be like: "Please contact us in 15 minutes, we need to expedite a switch to Geico"
FHS it’s was a Jawsh quote
Oh, no, that’s gonna buff right out. No need to get insurance involved. A little Bondo, and it’ll be good.
ATC: There's a 757 behind you.
Speedbird: Very well.
Classic British response.
I think he said: 'No worries'
@@morthren Still pretty much the same effect.
These things happen, can I have a cuppa whilst we wait.
4:32 'Ladies and Gentlemen..." "this is your captain speaking..." "if you look outside the left hand side... You will see what happens when two wings touch...." " Your flight has now been cancelled." "Thank you for flying with....."
*"Thank you for taxiing with...."
After the desperate hour-long struggle of the captain, Speedbird 2 being able to taxi to 31L via Kilo was the happy ending I so desperately needed.
I'm always amazed with ATC gives about 17 instructions in one giant sentence to a pilot. How can you remember all that? I was always terrified flying into large airports for exactly that reason.
You use a kneeboard plus short hand.
all of us who operate daily put of jfk, ord etc
most people write it down.
As Joshua states above: Kneeboard and short hand. And if the pilot is on top of things, he foresees 2/3 of what's thrown at him.
Writing it on mcdu scratchpad
Lol That Speedbird flight just wanted to get the hell outta there.
RellyOhBoy SpeedBird is the callsign for British Airways.
@Pop Films All fuel used in a delay is a concern as the minimum journey plus safety margin fuel is loaded.
Unlike boats where we load enough for a return to departure port or another port. should there be a problem not getting into original destination.
And can you blame him? It's a shame he didn't have room to get to the runway.
@@megabyte112 No Shit Sherlock.... that's what I said. He was the aircraft behind the Egypt Air flight. He was making radio calls trying to see if there was away to squeeze around him to get to the runway. Like I said, he wanted to get the hell outta there.
@@jonb6417 if Egypt air were up a bit further he coulda made kilo 2 to the runway. atleast he had a front-row seat.
Imagine the nightmare this little incident caused for the passengers and airlines. Especially because they are away from their home base and no extra airplanes.
"Tower... I think the Egyptair hit our left wing!"
"Alright"
CNN: "Right-wing muslim hits left-wing Atlantic virgin in distress"
Dowlphwin I want to punch you for that bad joke, but I also want to thank you for it
@@Dowlphin ohhhh I didn't get it at first lmao
@Tresden The Craln - Yeah, would probably have worked better with FOX in this case.
What you heard in that one, single defeated word is “well, my night is fucked, and so is yours.”
The only thing I've learned from this channel is never fly to Kennedy
Lol! I’m from NY and that is a very good idea. I hate flying to JFK, always so many delays and problems. I even had a pilot joke once that he was glad we only had a 15 minute delay and that was good for JFK. Last time I was there we had to wait for 20 minutes because there was no ground crew there to bring our plane in
You mean never fly to la guardia
Especially now that Kennedy Steve has retired.
dont worry, the bullet got to him first
TheJoshXGames JFK is the best airport compared to LGA and EWR.
My favourite thing in these clips is hearing British pilots say ‘understood’. It just sounds so good in our accent 👌
nice! one small remark: if preferred when the planes had the same color as the captions. much clearer that way!
That's the way I did it before but I'm trying new things. I've worked a lot to have planes painted on company colors but I've thought of a new thing for better visualization ;)
@@VASAviation I have to say, its a lot of work going into these animations and audio sync ups. Company colors is definitely good and provides a kind of realism. If I may make a suggestion, can you add the taxi and run way letters on the animations. Although, its possible to id from the audio, having the letters would make it easier to follow along. :) Keep up the good work.
@@humanperson335 Go watch most recent videos with all that now implemented :)
@@VASAviation keep the livery colour!
I'm finding some of the text colors (light blue and red) very hard to read on my android. Trying to find a way to improve their visibility, but can't replace my old eyes.
The virgin "I suck at parallel parking" vs the Chad "Lol, what side view mirrors"
Interesting how controller relied on car 99. She was the only one that was clear, concise and seemed to have a clue
Agreed, car 99 always seems to be on point.
It might've just been me, but tower controller sounded genuinely relieved to talk to someone who could give him pertinent information quickly and concisely.
@@PurtyPurple I reacted to this too, like car94 was an embarrassment.
@@sverigeaao5196 Car 94 sounded like they were definitely a newbie... or inconvenienced in the middle their pizza delivery.
You can hear it in the way he issues runway clearances at 11:09 vs 15:47 . 94 gets slow, clear instructions, 99 gets the rapid-fire.
So satisfying listening to two pros on the same wavelength getting shit done.
GND - "Don't stop the aircraft from moving"
986 - "Ok copied 986 stopping the aircraft now"
Me - "Oh FFS, really?"
@generic username - I was taught that our brain is slower at understanding negatives. KEEP MOVING for instance works better than DON'T STOP. You first hear the word stop and want to respond to that before the 'don't' sinks in. I think the ATC should phrase their sentences better.
Might also be a problem with not being a native speaker.
Plus, he's the guy that initiated the collision, so ...
It's really impressive how well coordinated and efficient the controllers are with the ground crew and the airliners.
This is a common misconception. These planes were just high fiving each other.
They high fived and broke each other’s hands, snapping a few digits off in the process.
I feel bad for the two planes stuck behind the two that were engaged in a love tap.
I'm sure they were both like REALLY? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME WITH THIS?
Especially when the one was advised to pull as far right as possible and then barely moves right.
@@ih82r8 Casual woman response, but they are not that big, especially for an a330 and a 777 next to each other, the controller should of made him wait on K1 not the ILS holding point.
Apart from the collision itself, this is a classic example of professional radio work and competence from all involved. I'm actually impressed with JFK here for once.
When Kennedy Steve retied...KJFK Ground is messed...
That controller seemed like he was overworked, he kept having to correct himself, and sounded like he was exhausted.
Welcome to JFK.
This airport is notorious. According to Kennedy Steve you can only do control successfully for about 60 minutes ; 75 max. (He has an interview on here with Capt - Joe I think ?) . It's exhausting and never ending. I feel like the learning curve is steep.
They need to suck it up. America is the rapinhoe generation now.
Car 94 was obviously being driven by the new guy :D
Great job!!! It's amazing how quickly you put this up. Thanks for your efforts and all of the rest of those who provide content for this channel.
Thank you for watching! :)
Layman here. How could this have been avoided (aside from having more cautious pilots)? Could ATC have instructed Virgin to pull all the way forward on the run-up pad in order to deal with the technical problem, then instructed everyone else to use K2 to access the runway? Or would some of those planes have needed the full length of the runway to takeoff?
They instructed the Virgin pilot to pull over as far as he could. Obviously that wasn’t enough. Egyptair should’ve refused to move until the Virgin aircraft was removed or wing walkers were provided. Then again, if you’ve ever driven in Egypt, nothing they do would surprise you!
I really enjoy your videos since I
have a deep interest in aviation. Your visuals make your videos much more entertaining and informative than a video of just watching the captions of the recordings. Keep up the good work!
Thanks very much for your words, Sam :)
4:07 is where you came for
tiny innocent a318 stuck in all this mess ;-) Interesting: BAW2 made it across the pond in one go, despite being stuck on the taxiway for an hour, burning extra fuel...
The BAW2 pilot shuts off the engines pretty soon after the incident, which is why the ATC then instructs him and the Aer Lingus pilot at 16:30 to ‘start up’ and advise him when they are ready to start taxiing.
And don't forget that it landed on LCY.
Lol Car94 was looking for some kind of advanced runway crossing clearance.
Yeah his first call he was essentially clearing himself till the controller schooled him. You would think people spend their entire shift in the airport would understand the operating procedures.
Sounded like Car 94 needs training on radio procedures. Too many excess words irrelevant to what he's trying to ask/communicate. Distracting, confusing, wasting time.
Car 54 where are you?!..Missed opportunities there😇😇
@@Alex-us2vw well here in 2023 we had that poor ramp worker sucked into an engine after two (2) safety meetings about the plane not being able to stop engines till the ramp hooked up the electricity.
how in the Hell do these controllers do this everyday? I'd be so damn stressed out, I'd go full scale George Costanza berserk the first hour.
I was onboard the Virgin Atlantic aircraft. It’s nice to see insight as to what actually happened.
Did you feel much of a jolt? Did you know you collided with the other plane
@@jamie123b yes we knew. It hit hard
all the coordination needed for this accident is incredible! the vehicles 🚗 need as much clearance to maneuver as the planes do - maybe even more. ATC, ground, and emergency vehicles did an incredible job with all those instructions! the animation is a big help and well done. thank you so much for the great editing, etc. which you did for us out here. :) 🌷✈️🛩 🚑
Way to get right on it. Very up to date, good job.
I literally just realised I had flown this exact 777 from Cairo to Heathrow and did not realise this had happened. Lol
Aiyaphol Kemapuckpong LoL
You would really think the airlines would inform their employees about something like that. We need something like carfax for planes and call it wingfax.
We need WAZE for air traffic problems.
@@treyn8070 Doesn’t matter. Its irrelevant info.
You are my favorite ATC channel! It helps my fear of flying, truly.
I'm glad you say that :)
Virgin Atlantic Pilot's thoughts:
"Car 99 where are youuu?"
The older crowd may get the joke here. lol
Thanks for the reminder. :P
Haha. I sure do remember. Good ol' Car 54. Thx for the memories!
33 isnt old! Noooooooo
He’s holding ‘6000 heading 180
That would be me, got it.
Damn, these pilots need some blind spot monitors 🤣
Nice to hear Air China pilots in car 94 heading out to help!!
Thanks so much for your very dedicated effort going into putting the videos together. It’s greatly appreciated. I wonder what the process for getting the two aircraft repaired entails. Off hand I think it’s possible to ferry the EgyptAir aircraft to a site that happens to repair body damage, or Boeing etc. the Virgin aircraft isn’t so lucky judging by the winglet and other wing pieces sitting in the pickup. I’ve been on a 757 (HP-US) that had an engine failure on taxi at Milwaukee. W/o any shops or mechanics at the airport NW handled the situation and upon receiving another V2500 from Phoenix, I suppose NW handled the replacement. Funny thing, the most trouble I’ve ever had regarding twin aircraft engines has involved the V2500. In Phoenix or Vegas heat failures due to some unexpected defect were frequent, I had two in addition to the MKE problem. An early morning Seattle-Phoenix flight had both a V2500 issue and an APU failure. I believe that the Rolls powered 757’s outnumbered International Aero V2500’s 2 to 1 yet the problems were many times more frequent. It’s weird looking up engine data on the IAE lists no Boeing products using the V2500: maybe I’m confusing V2500 powered 321’s and RR powered 757’s, old age is a real bitch. You don’t lose memory it just gets scrambled a little
I was actually on the flight radar 24 app and I was looking at JFK and saw VA and EA on the same taxiway and it looked like the VA was next to the Egypt. I wasn’t sure what was going on but no one was moving and it was an open runway they could’ve turned onto. Now I realize what happened lol.
People don't realize that how much work and effort is required to fly and land an aircraft, much respect to ATC operators coordinating multi tasks in the ground and air
The plane equivalent of a Fender Bender.
A 5 million dollar fender bender, wing bender.
Who's the rocket scientist who designed a run-up pad without a taxi line so planes taxiing on K will clip wingtips with a plane parked on the pad? This is a huge operations error and design oversight. That pad and taxiway are new concrete.
puma.will. pounce I would have expected the First Officer on the Egypt Air flight to be very much aware of the Virgin parking on the pad to his right even if he was engaged in check list call outs.Just saying
What does awareness have to do with wingtip clearance? The EGYPT AIR thought the Virgin was parked where he was suppose to be, and there are no restrictions listed for 777-300ER on taxiway K. This is the fault of JFK airport. Secondary fault goes to Virgin for eyeballing where to put their nosewheel on an unmarked holding pad.
Awareness is being able to acknowledge and react to what is happening around you in your ambient environment and not to concentrate on one single work piece.
Usually, the aircraft doing the runup will keep their place in line while they do it, and any aircraft passing someone needs to make sure they can squeeze by. This isn't a "safe parking zone," it's a place where aircraft can swing wide and point their engines somewhere safe. There's an instructional video where a CFI is taxiing a Cherokee (low wing) in line behind a Skyhawk (high wing), both angled on the taxiway for runup. The Skyhawk is taking his sweet time, and our man in the Cherokee, wanting to get on with our lesson, decides to pass because his wing will pass under the Skyhawk's. As he's taking off, the tower asks the next plane in line (another high-wing) if he wants to pass the Skyhawk. He says no because he probably can't get around the wing.
Virgin should have pulled up and off a bit farther, and probably angled the nose a bit back toward Kilo to pull the wing out of the way. Egypt should have pulled over to the left (looks like there's some room towards Kilo 2) to be sure and clear Virgin. It may even have been Virgin's intention to leave the far end of the pad open for Egypt to come back to the right and make a wide left turn onto Kilo 1.
Jim Stanley Yeah, it does seem like that would have been the best thing to do in this situation. JFK was built in the 1950's, so the layout of it leaves very much to be desired....lol! Pilots need to really think about their actions, when navigating around ol' JFK Airport.
I was waiting for this, after reading about the incident, Thank you!
looks damning to the NY NJ Port Authority. Not enough pullout space to keep the runway functional.
Awesome detail as usual guys.
16:10 "Minimum debris but just lay low thrust on the engines" Really??? Heaven forbid someone gets out of the truck to sweep up.
While I don't know what the actual situation looked like, to me "minimum debris" implies small, light parts that get into engines especially easily.
Exactly...Even as you said in another post, the tires. But I'd be much more worried about a $12 million Turbofan.
She should stick with making sandwiches
Port Authority Union. They had to wait for the apron cleaning truck.
It might look a small area but it's not like a road, imagine sweeping an area 250 ft x 250 ft and not missing anything.
14:51 that's the result of using 'when' and 'where' together and then later jusy using 'where'. Radio chatter can lead to this confusing situation. Pilots are already in a high stress situation and controller had to be a little bit more precise and use another wording. Is clear the pilots got the wrong call there and this lead to pilots getting more confused and controller getting angry.. Should have said like, hold short on bravo and Advise when you know where you're parking or something like that
rzero21 when in doubt, blame the Egyptian.
There was another video here somewhere where the ATC used exactly the same sentence "where do you enter the ramp" and the pilot had no a clue what the controller was saying. I agree the ATC should probably rephrase the question about the ramp/gate if it did not work the first time.
ua-cam.com/video/ZWOOKQlEe5s/v-deo.html
Yeah, seems silly to repeat the same question over and over when alternatives are fairly simple... "at what location will you be entering the ramp?" or "which intersection will you enter the ramp from?"
rzero21 this controller is very rude and don’t understand how the pilots under stress. This rude controller not his first time to speak like this. He did so before with Air China and u can search it. Just write Air China communication with jfk ground. U will find that he is so rude. He forgot that his job is to serve and insure the safety of the flight with the pilots. He suppose to be short , sharp , clear ( not angry). I am a pilot. I know a such feeling. JFK airport is a nightmare for pilots because a lot of traffic, complicated taxing procedures and a lot of communications with the tower and GND.
Uh, minimum debris and keep thrust low??? WTF? Don't these ops people know a screw can get sucked into an engine at idle speed and cause significant damage? I would refuse to taxi over that area.
you are being over safe lol
Completely agree, all airfield movement areas should be fod free and fully serviceable before allowing movements to commence. Ops vehicles R/T wasn't the greatest however bear in mind this was a stressful situation for the airport authority/ops teams.
My layman thought: Where the hell is JFK's vacuum cleaner car? (optionally turbine-powered, haha)
Had the same thoughts. "Minimum debris, so it's ok" I was like... wait wha...? This some new kind of devilish JFK lottery service?
Definitely should have done a FOD walk down
That gal in car 99 had her act together! Virgin could've moved a bit further over but Egypt was the responsible party. They could've asked Speedbird behind them to watch their starboard wing if it looked problematic.
Fascinating, I didn't know the tower also directed the cars to cross runways and such. I love watching the cars dart around all over the place when I'm at the airport, but never knew they were also talking to tower.
Any vehicle on the taxiway or runways, regardless of type, must be in contact with ATC
Thanks for these videos. You get an appreciation for just how busy ATC can get.
speedbird 2. poor little airplane was so hype for its 7 hour journey across the pond
There's an older ground collision video on this channel between a 737 and 757, witnessed by Virgin 4C at JFK. I just thought it was a neat (?) coincidence
VAS Aviation, Outstanding work! Ripped from the headlines. I wish KS had been there, but as he is not, the crew is still professional, if prosaic.
We all miss KS but take note that the ramp is working very very efficiently now at JFK. I know it's a rule they have to retire but he was very sharp. Maybe bi-annual dementia exams should be used in stead of age retire outs.
This was brilliantly done!
The British pilots are just the best lol, response wise !
We don’t have time to be playing around 😂 speedbird just wanted to leave haha
as an aussie, ive been listening to alot of these in the american accent, now i realise how funny our aussie accent sounds bahahaha.
I would love to hear aussie ATC recordings!! Where do I find them? 😂😂
Thanks again for this one, love your posts, VASAviation! ;)
Thank you for watching! :)
*Best. Channel. Ever.*
Best. Subscribers. Ever!!!!
I happened to be waiting to take off last night at JFK while this was happening. There was quite a queue of aircraft waiting on Zulu and even on 22L waiting for this to be resolved and the aircraft to taxi back to the ramp.
Chris Holloway The plural of aircraft is aircraft.
@@markg.4246 oh I didn't know that 😱
Wonder how much re-routing had to be done?
The Egyptair was just trying to hold his hand. He didn't know it was going to cause such a commotion.
Me in flight sim
lol
🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I mean if the EgyptAir B777 is dead nuts on the taxiway line (which they seem to be) wouldn't it be Virgin's fault for not going farther to the right? If Virgin A330 was also following the taxiway line then I guess it's ground controller's fault for instructing Virgin A330 to go right to give way to EgyptAir, assuming it's his job to know how widely separated those 2 taxiway lines are and whether both the B777 and the A330 could fit there next to each other? I don't know who's fault this is.
Why did ground not clear the debris before they left. Instead of letting A/C potentially suck that into the blades?
There was no debris on the runway which is incredible.
The airport is really missing Kennedy Steve :/
Michael Wolf he retired?
In August already, yep.
Michael Wolf wasnt aware. Thanks. We'll miss him.
Michael Wolf i thought same thing. We miss him already
Barry A. Also, KS would know what to say to Egypt Air...sir, you’re not pointed toward the pyramids, you’re on the wrong runway
Can I ask anyone who's knowldgeable...
What is the process for dealing with non life threatening shunts like this with aircraft?
Will the passengers have to be sent on later flights?
Do the companies exchange insurance details?
Is the port authority liable at all?
Do the planes get repaired and checked before going out again?
Do the pilots take a different flight or stay longer at the accident city location or does it just depend of where and when they are next needed to fly? Sorry for so many questions - just interested. :-)
Yes
The aircraft are grounded until repaired. The self loading cargo... er "passengers," will be re loaded on another aircraft or rerouted as this is the airline's fault. Insurance will
Just think, after all that attention and *still* a Virgin...
sort this out. The port authority may be liable. The insurance will determine. The airline will decide what they want to do with the pilots.
Haha, self loading cargo, nice one and pretty acurate, it displays the REAL airlines attitude and policy towards customers.
Jo - In this case, Virgin Airlines and Egypt Air will likely ask the Port Authority (which owns the airport) to pay for damage to both aircraft since it was the airport's fault for not having a taxi line on the run-up pad where the Virgin A330 parked which forced the Virgin captain to essentially guess where he should park. I've seen airlines request the airport to pay for damages before in similar incidents.
Joseph Niepce I actually didn't make that one up. "Self loading cargo" is a quite common in the industry.
"Speedbird give way to Virgin"
Ooooh no no no that's not right at all 😄
OMG 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
5:18 when you have all the fancy instrument but not a rear view mirror :)
Wonderful job VASAviation!
I lift my hat for the air traffic controllers!🍷
I'm proud of my ex bf from 30 years ago that is a DFW controller and we were such kids just teens and how he's ATC and even maybe saved my life flying into Dallas, whilst I'm an RN saving anybody without air.
WAIT! I know people with 5 cameras on their RV. You cannot tell me we can't put 10 outside cameras to cycle through on an airliner. C'mon. They can't see if the engine is on fire? If the rudder is working? If they have wing clearance? This is child's play, and overlooked. I will never understand this. Because it is stupid not to have multiple views of the aircraft. Period.
I was wondering the same thing.
Cost, aerodynamic drag. Two major things aircraft manufacturers have to keep down to make more money
@@6z0 Indeed.
And then also cost of equipment to watch them, complexity of SOPs to monitor them, maintenance ...
If airlines could dispense with the costs of wingwalkers and some of the other ground crew then they certainly would.
Curious, who is held responsible for the collision?
I hate it when this happens. The worst part is trying to get their insurance information
Thanks for the video!
The Virgin Air couldn't believe it. lol
Correct me if I’m wrong here but shouldn’t ATC have stopped all traffic when they knew the first plane was having issues instead of telling the second plane to continue to taxi?! Essentially the pilots all did what they were told to do and that resulted in their wingtips colliding. So basically that ATC guy is now unemployed.
🤔🗯 Umm this never would've happened with Kennedy Steve on the job 💯💯💯💯
Hello thanks for you great work the animations are excellent. Saludos Iberian
A British airways A319 at JFK? What a flight
BA flew London City (LCY) to New York (JFK) with 2 special A318 with all Business Seats.
@@Videospotter Well whatever meetings they had were delayed or cancelled or they got a free day in NY.
9:04 I love how well ground translates truck 1's plan for the pilots
Fantastic, we appreciate your effort!
Thanks :)
Some of us are just so wide that we lose sight of the edges of our girth.
"or perform a 180" is actually "as opposed to a 180". You are completely changing the entire meaning of what's being said.
Richard is the pilot of all virgin flights. Simultaneous
4:18 I would have loved to see the look on the pilots face when the egyptair hit his wing
*_Tow..._*
Also, The Egyptair just clipped our wing, 4:37 *_Clipped_*
I also saw BA2 a318 JFK-LCY in the same place as them. Crazy
Seriously? The small plane worries them regarding wingtip clearance, with plenty of people on site to look at whether it fits?
Generally it would have been great if Virgin had moved further ahead, with K1 and K2 being so close. Great job at blocking both.
Leaving small debris is odd. Risky, I'd assume. Not just because of the engines, but also the tires.
A busy airport like JFK should have a kind of vacuum cleaner vehicle that can render a taxiway as clean as it can be.
If only JFK could be like Nascar and clean up the tracks, I hear you.
Nice to see a cameo from Shamrock 11EA after surviving their hydraulic failure.
When wing tip clearance is not assured it is the PIC responsibility to ensure it is safe to continue. Ultimately the Egyptair shouldn't have continued taxi.
There's another VASA video where a pilot is in the same situation and stops the airplane (with wingwalkers) due to safety concerns and questions the ATC. The ATC says something along the lines of "oh so you control ground now?"
car 94 guy sounds like first day on the job and just woke up
The bad part is that when something like this happens, it's hard for the pilots to exchange insurance cards.
At 5:47, the subtitles said "on their route to assist" but this is incorrect. Tower actually said "...vehicles on their way as we speak".
Whose fault is this for clipping the wing? Does controller not know that there isn't much gap between 2 planes at that point?
"Car94, just go back to the canteen please..."
shoutout to the speedbird pilots who could have probably had this whole situation avoided if they just spoke up and said no wing tip clearance
I would be more than willing to bet that they were too far back to see actually how close they are. As someone else posted they should of had wingtip walkers come out to check clearance.
Also on line up to take off I bet they had a ton of other stuff to be worrying about and in the animation it seemed to happen quite quick
Well the only way they could have assured wing tip clearance was if their line of sight was at Eygpt air's right wingtip level looking straight down parallel to the taxi way as from their position parallax prevents them from seeing those distances accruately.
Ook! [The BA craft was in a hurry. The pilots must have been close to the flight time limits.]
a key factor of Tenerife North in 1977.
There seems to be a lot of tension between control and ground crews. Seems work atmosphere has some turbulence.
Keep in mind, this is all the transmissions back to back. Usually it's very quiet for long periods of time at some airports.
14:00 confuses me the tower is asking him to hold but in the next breath the tower is saying "Dont stop the aircraft from moving"???????????
I think that GRD was asking him to hold at the far end of the runway while asking which taxiway he was going to take to get to the ramp
I'd need a strong cup of tea and a lie down if I was an ATC sorting out this mess.