The Vietnam War (Part 1) - Things I Care About Reaction
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2024
- See the original here - • The Vietnam War - Part 1
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4:37 holy shit, it is insane how fast the smile dropped from your face the very moment Woodrow Wilson simply showed up on screen.
take a shot
Woodrow Wilson is one of the best reasons to stop smiling.
@@ernestcline2868 Real and true.
He really doesn't like Woodrow Wilson lol
It's becoming a running gag and I love it
Took a great college class on the Vietnam war that went into great detail. Our professor was ex-military. Day one of the class he said “I am a red blooded American but spoiler alert: we lost the war and created the mess in the first place, if you don’t believe that by the end of my class I have failed you”
What’s crazy is the fact FDR was pro Vietnam for getting their independence from France. After the Second World War, for the contributions they made while fighting the Japanese. Unfortunately he had passed away before that could happen. Because I believe with Americas backing Vietnam could’ve gained its independence for sure.
We forced the enemy into singing a treaty promising not to invade south Vietnam. This treaty was rather crappy and didn’t do much, the north invaded 2 years later
I also had a great class in college on Vietnam (in American Literature). Our prof was Strategic Air Command in the 1950s, was teaching at Stanford and found secret plans to invade Vietnam on the university’s mainframe and subsequently staged a sit-in, and thus got fired. He went on to write extensively about the Vietnam war in literature, media, and culture. He retired a couple years ago and is still writing books today.
Professors who tell you what to think are the reason for the sorry state of education these days
@@cbraat27 He's not telling them what to think, he's telling them exactly what happened.
Woodrow Wilson wiping off a smile again.
He completely glossed over the absolute military genius that was the battle of Dien Bien Phu. The Viet Minh spent weeks disassembling thousands of artillery and AA weapons and carrying them by hand up the mountains surrounding Dien Bien Phu.
France’s arrogance did itself in as well. They really underestimated the North.
Those thug were the worst fighters on earth and had NO military genius. They lost every fight and took over 100 to 1 killed. When 1 US solider can wipe out over 100 VC that proves how worthless they all are.
@@robertsears46Cringe, cope harder
@@robertsears46yeah after fighting off the 3rd invasion of their country by an outside force. Yet they still won and we are still here.
Certainly a very simplified summary, but it got the point across.
My brother fought in Vietnam (died of liver cancer at 59, probably from Agent Orange) and I've always wanted to learn what happened over there. Growing up the younger sib, I watched the protests of the war, knowing that my brother was over there fighting. So conflicted... When he came home from Nam, he would spend hours in the shower. He said he never felt clean. He did have nightmares as well and would spend most nights in his room playing music.
I'm glad you are doing this and would love to have more.
sorry to hear that, my friend.
My dad was similar. A draftee in ‘67, and Tet survivor, he also came home different and unappreciated by society. He never spoke of his experiences. He also died young (46) from illness not inherited through genetics. Who knew I’d be a Soldier too one day and do 22 yrs. It always makes me sad that they never got to experience everything change for military vets post-9/11.
@@suciojay1604 Did your day live until 9/11?
@@nikitakuznetsov8446 no, he passed in 1994. He never got to experience the change in perception to vets.
FYI:
Due to being a French colony, the Vietnamese writing was changed forever. Unlike other Asian countries, China, Japan, Korea, etc. their language now uses the Latin alphabet.
The alphabet was actually created by a Portuguese but the French certainly helped spreading it.
I believe our own writing system had been burned by the Chinese over 2000 years ago. They tended to do that a lot trying to assimilate the local.
The face you make anytime Woodrow Wilson is mentioned is absolutely hilarious 😂
I was teaching when a large group of Vietnamese moved into our city. I had the honor of teaching some of these students who worked so hard to not only learn the language but also master science, math, and social studies. I went to several high school graduations and these young people graduated at the top of their class. One of my students actually got a full scholarship to the most prestigeous private school in the county and then got a full scholarship to Duke University.
One of the things I learned from my contacts with these people was that the Vietnamese are not a homogeneous people. In the 17th Century there were wars fought between them. I think the video we just watched made it seem like prior to the French everything was rosey in Vietnam when in fact it wasn't. The people that lived in the central highlands were different than those from the Southern Delta.
What i find vietnam so interesting is that for many centuries they fought against The Mongols, China, French, Japan and USA and remained undefeated which is mind blowing with guerilla warfare
Thick jungle is easy to hide in
If they were undefeated, French Indochina would not have been around for 67 years. The Tonkin campaign was a crushing French victory despite being outnumbered 4:1, the outcome of which established French Indochina.
The US won every major battle and every battle of consequence throughout the war, but the North Vietnamese refused to surrender. Also the US military was not permitted to put boots on the ground in the north (also Laos or Cambodia…until the end of the war) for fear of Russia and/or China joining. It was truly just a war of attrition.
Yeah that’s just not true. They were occupied multiple times. And honestly if The US had the desire to occupy like Japan or France they would have. Most of these conflicts end because of external issue to Vietnam.
Vietnam also fought PRC after the Vietnam war which ended kinda in a draw. But in this situation is to be considered a Vietnamese victory.
Hey Chris, I’m a Vietnamese born in the South in 2002. I understand that the video might be more sympathetic to the Vietnamese and gloss over atrocities committed by the North. But as in any war, both sides committed atrocities and if we are going to judge them by that standard, the US has more blood on its hand. I would recommend the book “Kill Anything That Moves” by Nick Turse. The scale of crimes committed by American servicemen was beyond comprehension. I’m also speaking from personal experience in my family as my maternal grandmother lost two of her siblings to American bombs.
Thank you for bringing up your experience and family history.
Yeah, I’ve heard stories of American veterans from Vietnam and how traumatized they were when they came back. Elsewhere in the comments section there’s someone whose brother came back and took hours-long showers, saying that he “could never feel clean.” No one came out of the American-Vietnam War unscathed, and it’s one of the wars that pisses me off most because as the person in the video said, it didn’t have to be this was.
I appreciate your perspective; my grandfather was an American who fought in vietnam, and he passed away before i was born, but my mom told me that from what she heard, many of the most traumatizing things he saw were atrocities inflicted upon Northern Vietnamese people.
I am sorry that your family lost people to such senseless imperialism.
same with WW2, everyone talk about nankin and japanese attrocities but Americans did just as bad or worst but we surprisingly dont hear AT ALL about it.
@@tonytouchz757 Look up how the US government treated members of Unit 731, they straight up pardoned war criminals. Few people don’t know this but former Japanese pm Shinzo Abe’s grandfather, who was also the Japanese prime minister from 1957 to 1960, was nicknamed “the Butcher of Manchuria” and instead of executing him like the war criminal he was, the US government pardoned him because he was “the best man to lead the country at the time”. People don’t realize the length United States went to rehabilitate or prop up far-right regimes post WW2 (South Vietnam, South Korea, Chile, Indonesia,…). I would recommend reading the book “Killing Hope” by William Blum or “The Triumph of Evil” by A. Murphy to see the US for what it is.
I respect the Vietnam War veterans, I dislike how the politics especially those in power were. Imagine going to Asia when you don't want to and you kinda had no choice. Feels bad for those young kids.
Johnson sending planes on the exact same route and calling Hanoi ahead of time to let them know they were coming. I can go on but we know the stories.
Who do you think was doing the bloodbaths on the field
Not just them but also 3 million Vietnamese civilians and soldiers
I always think about my brother when Vietnam comes up. Or specifically, the draft. It would suck for me too, but I know I could do it. I'm not a John Wayne tough guy but I love working out, I've been in fights, I'm into guns and hunting and all that, and I know myself enough to know I got the mental toughness to deal with that horrible situation. But my brother is a dude who just wants to listen to music and chill. Would rather play D&D than do anything aggressive. A nerd type dude. And for some reason when the subject of the draft comes up, I think of dudes like him who had to run through the jungle, and it makes me so angry. It would destroy me if something happened to him, and I think about how many guys who weren't cut out for it ended up dying on the jungle floor because a power above them decided their control over their own life was over.
The political leaders of that period should've had the treatment that the veterans got. Instead they stayed wealthy and in power, and continue their political dynasties to this day.
And today the US is Vietnam’s biggest export partner by far.
Over 80% view the US positively there as well.
@@Gr13fM4ch1n3 That's horrible!
@@tnguyen403no it's not, there's nothing wrong with it, it is just an opinion.
Yeah China invaded Vietnam immediately after the war and USA turned from enemy to an ally. It's a really weird switch to think of.
@@deasttttt Vietnam is not an ally of the USA. Where do you get such ignorant idea?
Chris, as always appreciate your tempered approach and for calling it out when you felt this video drifting into a one-sided narrative.
An example is in regards to the elections that were called for in the Geneva Conventions: the video creator criticizes America and South Vietnam for not agreeing to the convention but does not mention why. The reason is that the agreement was a total non-starter because it did nothing to protect the integrity of South Vietnam, and in fact directly threatened it: the convention called for unified elections across both north and south, which would have almost certainly led to a Communist victory and thus to the end of South Vietnam (with the accompanying threat to life and limb of millions of non-communist South Vietnamese).
Then, minutes later, the video criticizes the United States and South Vietnam for refusing to participating in said elections, acting as if they had previously agreed to and now reneged, despite having just made a big deal about them never agreeing to do so.
This situation is a perfect example why I support your channel, you always offer a tempered perspective and acknowledge the nuance of complex situations.
Michelin man is because Michelin ran a rubber plantation in Vietnam. 1st and 25th infantry did a lot of fighting there in 66-67.
Yes we did
As a military historian and an American I can say it is America's doing that caused the problems in Vietnam.
South Vietnam was also plagued by corruption throughout our involvement.
Yeah not really. Forced farm labor camps and famine followed right after the war under communist occupation. This was then followed by poor Marxist economic policy that inflated the Dong and crippled their economically. To say that this was entirely Americas fault is lacking. The war made it worse but it could have been significantly easier. Not to mention South Vietnam was a corrupt mess. I mean a good counter point is to look at the change in Korea and its dichotomy now.
@@zerk813 "The war made it worse" - Kind of undercut your own argument with that. Also, nothing you pointed out justified US intervention.
@@zerk813
"inflated the Dong" 🌚
@@cobracommander8133honestly, most communist economies’ failures can be attributed at least in large part to US interference.
Thx for the upload Chris! Gets me through the rest of my shift. Love all your work!! 😁
This woman i grew up with, her dad was one of the earliest 'advisors' in Vietnam. He served starting in Italy in WW2, then saw action in Korea, and finally Vietnam.
Hey VTH Vietnamese American here this is one of the weird quirks of the war Mihn was a huge America fan he very much would have sided with us but the US sat on its hands while France retook the country if you read into Mihn a bit he wasn't that committed to communism more so then being a patriot. Hes somewhat an oddity in the area for that reason.
Seems to me he just followed who could guarantee power and security. It was west vs Japan then it turned into the power the communist offered.
Yes. The idea that he’d let Vietnam be under the thumb of China or USSR was pretty far fetched.
He was a founding member of the French communist party in Paris. To say he wasn’t committed to communism is confusing.
@@monsieurcherry Right, but he could have been convinced to play ball with the U.S. in some areas if they let him get elected by the people.
@@knightmarepilot4832 I highly doubt that. Regardless, it was simply a nonstarter for America to support supposed communists anyhow.
Chris, I once again commend your even handed, sensitive and thoughtful commentary on a divisive subject that is still, very much within living memory.
That last statement is why I love your channel so much. You know that we all have biases, even when the story seems to go against your point of view. You're open to new information and willing to accept the truth. And you admit when you don't know something.
If you have the time, I couldn’t recommend Ken Burn’s the Vietnam War documentary series any more! Amazing storytelling, integrates interviews, multiple perspectives and narratives, just amazing. Also looks at how the war was impacting the US at home, politically and culturally. A must watch!
So great your doing more Things I care about videos ! Your comments are so good , can’t wait for part 2.
It’s really frustrating how this war could have ended way sooner but sadly it didn’t
As someone who lived through it, I always felt that the US lied at almost every opportunity because we needed A war to prop up the mil-ind complex we'd created and that ultimately bought our government. We always said we went to war for Sun Oil.
The industrial complex profits from being a supplier of war materials, not directly participating in one where it consumes its own gdp.
@@jason200912the government doesn't benefit long-term unless it achieves total victory but the other half of the MIC, the private enterprises, win every single time the US government gives them a contract. Hardware contractors make more money if the government is losing hardware. Its actually a good thing for Lockheed Martin every time a jet is disabled beyond repair because it means they get paid billions to build a new one
My Grandfather died a few years ago from cancer most likely from things from his time in Vietnam
Agent Orange is sadly still taking lives. Sorry for your loss.
My great uncle was a Vietnam war veteran and died from diabetes (Ate McDonald's like everyday.)
I've read that the French were reluctant to go back into Vietnam after WW2 and it was only after the US's encouragement and promise to largely bankroll the operation that they agreed.
Great to see the Vietnam war finally covered more in depth on this channel. Good to know you'll always do your best to make sure the facts are 100% and not biased in any way.
Would love to see you react to the animated history of mexico as well!
I think this video portrayal of the onset of the Vietnam War is pretty spot on. Creating Puppet States was a specialty for the OSS and later on the CIA. This is one case where there were two sides instead of an entire nation under one ruler. This exposed American intervention in foreign affairs under the guise of stopping the spread of communism. This was not the same as the Korean War and was doomed from the start. There was a reason why this was an unpopular war and the American public knew it. I don’t think this video is biased towards Vietnamese empathy and/or American tyranny. After World War 2, the United States became heavyweight champion and needed to flex muscle to continue a show of strength. Unfortunately, they underestimated the resolve of the people fighting for their independence. There are a lot of similarities between the independence of the United States and that of Vietnam.
France threatened to join the USSR if the US didn’t intervene. Plus the spread of communism was a real threat at the time. After Korea, I don’t know how eager the US was to flex muscle in another Asian country most Americans probably never heard of prior…Life under communist rule wasn’t great after the fall of Saigon considering the massive poverty, famine, “re-education” camps, and decade long war with Cambodia.
@@patrickthomas8890poverty and famine were the fault of US carpet bombing campaigns and subsequent trade embargo. The war with Cambodia came as a result of the U.S. and China setting up the Khamer Rouge to counter balance Vietnam. The reeducation camps were done by the Vietnam government, that is one hundred percent correct. Though I will point out that much of the horrible conditions resulted from the widespread destruction which was the fault of the U.S..
@@skinnyjasper3097Good points, but id say the US was only partially at fault for the famine and poverty. The bombing definitely had an impact, but the communist economic policies also had a devastating effect on the country. Vietnam didn’t start to recover until the Doi Moi economic reforms of the mid-late 1980s.
@@patrickthomas8890 I would temper that statement heavily. The communist policies were devastating less because of the policies themselves and more their effects on US relations. If you look at gdp (real wages, poverty rate, and other indicators also back this up but gdp is more widely agreed upon as accurate), the Vietnamese GDP retracted in 1987 and kept going down until 1990. It stayed at 1990 levels for the next few years but this is mostly due to the USSR collapsing. The free market reforms did a lot to initially hurt the country. But all that changed in 1994 when the U.S. stopped thinking of Vietnam as communist and decided they wanted more countries to control China’s influence. US trade and Vietnamese market socialism (and I mean actual market socialism, not social democracy) have since resulted in the fastest and most consistent growth seen by any developing nation. Now that industrialization has mostly finished and Trong’s victory in the 2011 election (Vietnamese politics are much more complicated than they appear. All politicians are officially Marxist-Leninist but a large chunk are capitalists. Trong favors sticking to the principles of socialism rather than pulling a China and abandoning them) and subsequent anti-corruption campaign (which has had moderate success) they seem to be moving back towards Marxist Leninism but with the backing of the U.S.. I think it’s very hard to judge what worked for Vietnam back then due to the war and changes in U.S. policy towards Vietnam. I will be interested to see how things play out now.
Unfortunately, when you do a bit of digging on the history after WW2 you find that CIA was involved in the demise of many countries all over the world. It's a trend that kept repeating itself to this day.
I spoken too a Vietnam veteran and one thing he said was he hated westmorland, I heard from many Vietnam veterans that they didn’t like westmorland, based off what I heard that he was better suited to fight conventional wars in a ww3 against the Soviets, rather then against VC insurgents
However one thing I heard veterans say is that Creighton Abrams (guy Abrams tanks is named after) should have been in charge of Vietnam from the beginning. Patton had high regard of him in ww2. But in Vietnam a lot of veterans felt he knew what he was doing in pursuing “hearts and minds strategy” over “search and destroy” and “bodycount”
Westmorland definitely made mistakes, but to be fair I don’t think anybody else would’ve faired much better. It was probably an un-winnable war all along. S Vietnam was an unstable and corrupt regime, plus the US military was not allowed to put boots on the ground in North Vietnam, or engage at all in the bordering countries of Laos and Cambodia, or mine the harbors bc the White House was afraid of escalating the conflict. There was never a clear idea of what winning even meant, or any specific goals beyond kill as much as possible. Ultimately it’s basically impossible to win a war of attrition against an adversary willing to fight until the last man died. The US won every battle of consequence but it didn’t matter bc the North refused to surrender.
@@patrickthomas8890 yes westmorland was in disadvantage due to the fact he was short handed. VC would ambush amercian troops and flee into Cambodia or North Vietnam and rest and regroup and repeat the process without the US military chasing them into Cambodia.
One of my main criticisms of westmorland was operation fracture jaw in where he secretly ordered nuclear weapons to be used if khe Sahn fell but LBJ heard and shutdown the operation and khe sahn never fell
@@patrickthomas8890 in boxing terms they rope a doped the US they didn’t have to win, they just had to wait for the US to lose. However ironically Vietnam wanted to be close to the US to counter China and this wasn’t far off because China in 1979 would attack Vietnam.
Today in 2024 the US is pursuing the other policy that was considered back in the 50s in which was make Ho Chi Minh a Asian version of Tito of countering Chinese influence.
Creighton Abrams, not Craig Abrams. Craig Abrams was a janitor for GE.
@@patrickmccrann991 o I thought I did spell it. My autocorrect changes it to Craig for some reason .
Been waiting for your takes on the Vietnam War. Can’t wait to listen!
Niiice thank you for covering this!!
Love your videos! I like the detailed analysis of the simple vids.
Even if this video might be slightly Vietnamese biased, it is nice to see this perspective cause in youtube we usually see the American POV
Great reaction plus added info as always, Chris.
Love this and all your work. I have been binge watching all of your stuff lol
I was just going to look for a video of yours to watch and you uploaded 😂
6.03. Christopher Lee witnessed the last public execution in France. When he was seventeen, so had to be the one in 1939 I think, or around there. It was not done public after that. Still crazy to me it was public in 1939
Ken Burns documentary on it kicked butt. Check it out.
Came to talk about this, can not stress enough how good the series is. Much of what is talked about here follows that series.
This, this, this! Absolutely amazing piece of work, integrated with interviews and amazing visuals.
Yes Burns went into the origins very deeply.
The part about John Kerry testifying in Congress was really informative as well.
I mean, imo Ken Burns unjustly paints the commies and Ho Chi Minh and the VC and NVA as some heroes, acting like the US was the ”bad guys” and like the VC wasnt basically a terrorist taliban like cell who commited several horrible war crimes, there is no good or bad side in the war, if you actually educate youtself on vietnam you realize that both the capitalist side and commie side commited several horrible war crimes, but the ones commited by the US was alot of the times justified cuz its due to VC usint guerilla tactics. This video and ken burns hyperfixates on the western nations war crimes and conviently ignores all the stuff the VC did. Like intentionally occupying villages by force, raping women, hiding within the villages knowing the US didnt have a choise but to sometimew cause civillian casualites, did the US or ARVN hide like little cowards within civillian populations knowing the VC wouldnt be able to tell friend from foe, which lead to alot of civillians being killed, injured or captured?
To be blunt: If the VC fought like men and not little cowards exploting civillias and intentionally putting them in harms way, then the majority of civillian casualties caused by the US could’ve probably been avoided. I see history repeating itself now, hamas doing the same thing. All these people are so blind, if hamas just fires rockets from a civillian area onto the front what’s the IDF suppoused to do, just let it keep devestating the IDF? Same thing with the VC,Taliban,ISIS,Al Qaeda firing from a civillian population without uniforms.
One person who isn't mentioned is Vo Nguyen Giap who was the major general of the Vietnamese Army. Having fought against the French at Dien Bien Phu, he used tactics similar to U.S. Grant with reliance on numbers, engineering, and combat maneuvers. He was also the architect of the Ho Chi Minh Trail as well. However his popularity sank following the Tet Offensive and butted heads repeatedly with Le Duan on his tactics. He was eventually replaced by Van Tien Dung but remained defense minister and was still credited with the North's victory in the war.
U.S. : "We want you to have free and fair elections."
Also U.S. : "Not like that!"
That was really good. Maybe a little oversimplified, but not much I think. And so much information that I'd never heard before. It gave me a lot to think about. Thanks for posting this.
History oversimplified
Chris if you have not yet seen Ken Burn's documentary on the Vietnam War, I highly HIGHLY recommend it. The Vietnam War was never one of my favorite history subjects, but after seeing that documentary, I became much more interested. It's not only the best Vietnam documentary that I've ever seen, but one of the best done documentaries I've seen on any subject.
My grandfather was in the army during the Vietnam war. For some reason though, he was stationed in Connecticut🤷
Keep up the great work Chris. My grandfather served on the USS Oriskany during the war.
Once again great Channel thank you for answering my question
My step grandfather and my grandfather are very reluctant to talk about this subject the only time i heard them really go into detail about this is when i interviewed them for a history project that was worth a good portion of my grade and i chose to do my project around my dad uncle and both grandfathers i mentioned they you could tell they weren’t to well about talking about it putting it mildly my dad and uncle talked about their experience (my uncle served first gulf war and my dad was still serving) more positively vs my grandfather it wasn’t years later until i heard how horribly my grandfathers were treated after the war. It broke my heart 😢
Ken Burns’s documentary on Vietnam was enlightening as well, though it didn’t start nearly as early as this one; I appreciate this video for the additional history. Burns really concentrated more on what happened here in the US to sell the war to its own citizens.
The Ken Burns documentary started in 1800’s indochina and didn’t focus on major US involvement until episode 3
@@patrickthomas8890 thank you! It has been a while since I watched it, and I didn’t recall that point. I guess, given my age at the time it was all happening, my attention was more focused on the parts about the reaction “at home” and how much the government lied to sell it to us.
Mr.Beat did a great video on the Vietnam war , He goes into much detail and even has an unscencored version.😊
man your videos really make my day, love from India!
Thank you!
I once had a course where we looked at US History from first hand accounts. And we read Born on the Fourth of July during our Vietnam War discussion. My professor personally knew Ron Kovic so we took a deeper dive into his experiences both during and after the war. During our class recap at the end of the semester, the class suggested that our professor attempt a live video chat with Mr Kovic for future classes.
My best friend did 2 tours of duty as a combat Marine in Vietnam. He once wrote me saying, " Whatever you do don't come over here." I didn't have to worry about getting drafted as my draft number was 353. When he returned he drank more than he had before going to Nam. His wife told me that he struggled with his buddies getting hit and all the civilians dead he saw, especially one little girl. Not every peasant was the enemy and bombs have no brains. He died in 1997, a victim of Agent Orange.
I've watched a couple of videos on the Gulf of Tonkin incident and all day the same thing; first attack was real but our destroyer was in N. Vietnam waters and there had been off shore attacks by S.Vietnam vessels. The second set of attacks in all probability never took place because more torpedoes were recorded that N. Vietnam had. Air surveillance confirmed that there was no presence of any vessels anywhere. President Lyndon Johnson was notified of this but went along with the lie that the second attack had taken place, which was the justification for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.
I recommend Ken burns documentary on Vietnam. It has been a while, but I remember a lot of this background being explained, though some of this was new to me as well.
I HIGHLY recommend Ken Burns' documentary on the Vietnam War. In my opinion one of the greatest documentaries ever produced, plain and simple.
No one talks about how the UK teamed up with Japanese pows to defeat Vietnam so that the french could retake its old colony!
Operation mastodom 👍🏼
And the French got the USA to stop it because the French were scared the UK was going to take it over
22:10 I got that vibe from this video too. It's not totally balanced. But, we never get to hear this side of the story; so I am sort of glad he takes this angle. It should have been more balanced, but I truly believed that the U.S. was meddling more than the nation of Vietnam being antagonistic outside of their country. This is one of those things that I feel the U.S. was its own enemy. They saw shadows and enemies where there might have only been bugs and trees.
Well, the other side is also that when US forces arrived, some local Vietnamese thought the French had finally come back and cheered their return. The French weren't just "stealing" resources, French Indochina was the second most invested-in French colony by 1940. And bare in mind, Indochina isn't just "Vietnam" which this video does not make a distinction over. French Indochina would export tea, rice, coffee, pepper, rubber, coal, zinc, and tin, and return the French would import flour and milk. The huge investments France made into establishing world leading rubber plantations brought wealth to the region, it's a bit odd to just refer to that as just "stealing Vietnam's resources".
@@Edax_RoyeauxWhile I am sure that some did support the return of the French. Vietnam was still a colony of France and while the French did invest resources into Vietnam the same could be said for every colony that existed. The reason why colonies exist is to get raw resources to use for industry in mainland France for example, to get those resources you do have to build certain infrastructures to get it to the mainland in the first place. Still this often doesn’t increase the wealth of the region because the workers or farmers were not paid well meaning that the local economy did not substantially increase or that the average person could appreciate the growth if it existed. There was a reason why the Guerilla movement was so large in Indochina and that the French could not get control back.
I do agree that the video is a bit one sided he should have gotten into some of the more oppressive measures of North Vietnam for example he could have been more clear on why a lot of people fled from North Vietnam to the South in the early parts of the conflict yes the CIA was involved but it wasn’t the only reason why so many people left North Vietnam.
The things he said were still not wrong the US was really hypocritical in the terms of Vietnam and there should have been an election in North and South Vietnam like the video says but the US and South Vietnam refused probably because they knew that the communist would win the election. The South also was and oppressive government that was seen by a lot of Vietnamese as illegitimate which is why the Vietcong was able to begin such an effective Guerilla Campaign.
@@Helania12 But that's just it though, building infrastructure will improve the standard of living even if the workers are poorly paid. Well paved roads means the poor are able to more effectively move about the country, buy and sell goods, which will increase the wealth of the region, even if inequity remains high. Having international ports exporting and importing goods creates jobs, makes commodities less expensive and increases the affordability of consumer goods. The importation of French manufactured goods and French investments in manufacturing up in the North stimulated the local economy. Can it honestly be said that because the workers were poor, they were better off in 1850 under the Nguyễn dynasty than in 1938 where the advances of technology were being implemented in the region?
The adoption of Communism did not suddenly flood the region in wealth. It was easy to scapegoat the French as being the primary cause of their poverty but removing the French did not being wealth to the region. If I am looking at Vietnamese GDP figures correctly, it was only in 1986 when they abandoned an planned economy (Doi Moi reforms) that their economy started to grow significantly and poverty significantly reduced.
"Vietnam was still a colony of France and while the French did invest resources into Vietnam the same could be said for every colony that existed" It's all on a scale, a lot of European colonies received very little investment, remaining sleepy agrarian villages. Often it's more justifiable to point out the mother country isn't doing anything other than just extracting resources in such cases. France to this day still maintains a colony in North America, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, which are so insignificant hardly anyone knows they exist.
@@Edax_Royeaux I am not claiming that communism advanced the economy as that is pretty hard to prove or disprove with Vietnam considering that Vietnam right know is better than it was 50 years ago you can say that the communist government improved the position of Vietnamese people but that’s considering a decades long civil war.
Yes the French did improve infrastructure but simply improving infrastructure does not equal improving the living standards. You can see that for example in the early industrialisation where the living conditions of workers where often far worse that they were even during Feudalism and industrialisation did improve infrastructure but it did not automatically improve living conditions this came after with the inclusion of political rights and the beginning of worker’s movements and the realisation of capitalist that if they treat their workers to badly that it could lead to a revolution and that better wage often leads to a higher profit in the future because of higher purchasing power. A colony by its structure stops this from happening meaning that the improvement of living conditions for its population is stopped or incredibly slow leading to dissatisfaction.
If we look at Vietnam we don’t particularly see that much improvement in the living standards under the French other than infrastructure and of course some scientific improvement that the average Vietnamese in a colony just would not experience. Now in regards of the dynasty that came before it that is hard to tell let us suppose that France would not have invaded Indochina it isn’t impossible that Vietnam would have gone the route of Japan or Thailand with its own path of industrialisation leading to a greater wealth for Vietnam and probably not to a communist Vietnam but that did not happen and we won’t know if it would have happened because of the invasion.
Another point is that if people felt that they had good living conditions the Guerilla would not have been able to establish itself a successful Guerilla movement needs support from the local population and a belief that the current government in illegitimate or it will fail and it didn’t which leads to the conclusion that a lot of people were dissatisfied with French rule or the movement would have crumbled.
@@Helania12 "the beginning of worker’s movements and the realisation of capitalist that if they treat their workers to badly that it could lead to a revolution and that better wage often leads to a higher profit in the future because of higher purchasing power. A colony by its structure stops this from happening meaning that the improvement of living conditions for its population is stopped or incredibly slow leading to dissatisfaction."
Hong Kong is the very example that disproves that notion that colonies prevent improved living standards. The living standards in Hong Kong surpassed that of China itself.
"Another point is that if people felt that they had good living conditions the Guerilla would not have been able to establish itself a successful Guerilla movement needs support from the local population and a belief that the current government in illegitimate or it will fail and it didn’t which leads to the conclusion that a lot of people were dissatisfied with French rule or the movement would have crumbled."
Nativist sentiment alone would have been enough to have a desire to fight for independence. The Vietnamese were not French citizens and were not afforded representation in Paris. How many Guerillas there were is not purely a reflection on the local economy.
I’ve got several Vietnam vets in my family. One of them was a SSGT in the Marines 0331. He earned three combat meritorious promotions and several purple hearts. I can bend his ear all day long
I was a Vietnam Reenactor for years & yes its still a touchy subject. Even for someone who lives in the Uk like me. I’ve been to Vets reunions, fort benning & D.C. i even went to vietnam for a cpl of wks.
I love the Futurerama Bender reference at 27:02
I love james clavell's take on the vietnam war. And i forget the exact quote but it basically says that "If China couldn't control that region what makes the americans think they can?"
Interesting to note that Star Wars came off the heels of the Vietnam war as well as the 200th anniversary of independence from the British Empire.
Ya Lucas did base the battle of Endor on the Vietnam war
I love this channel
Thanks Chris I’m going to Normandy for the d-day commemorations and wondered if you was going and if anywhere was worth visiting
I will be in France that week but I'm flying home on D-Day. I was in Normandy for the 79th and there were so many people everywhere that I decided I didn't want to fight the crowds for the 80th. Plenty of places worth visiting but they will all be crowded, so be prepared.
the Caen museum is definitely worth it, Point du Hoc too
Thanks I will give it a look
After reading books on MACV SOG and listening to podcasts with the guys that served in it my perspective on the Vietnam War has changed drastically. Those guys basically had their fingers on the pulse.
The last exeuction by guillitine wasn't in the year I was born (I'd already made a couple handfuls of trips around the sun by 1977), but it was, however, on my birthday.
27:00 Fantastic Futurama reference
please do a video on the korean war made by Things I Care About! they brought a very different perspective from the war that we dont see very often
A very well done video in covering the overall politics related to the background of the war. Sometimes it is tough reviewing our United States history as it relates to the world stage. As I always like to say that if the US had a relationship status in social media it would be IT'S COMPLICATED LOL. Always enjoy your videos!
My uncle was sent over to Nam. He was sent back to the states for the birth of his oldest son, the very next day his entire unit was wiped out in a combing. He still doesn’t talk about it to this day as you can imagine
I would recommend Ken Burn’s Vietnam documentary series. It goes into all this detail from every side’s perspective. From both Vietnams, the USA, and anti war protesters. It’s a fascinating series and has probably the best soundtrack ever. Side note, Trent Reznor of NIN also composed the score
Mr Beat just made a really good video on the Vietnam War, and he has some differing perspectives on North Vietnam.
Mr. Beat and Vlogging through history are more right wing. Things I care about is more left wing. I've seen all videos, good to watch all, but it as I am watching this, it really seems like Vloging through history is trying to "both sides" things that don't need to be "both sided".
well done Chris
A great book to read is the Ken burns book on the Vietnam war. It goes into a lot of detail about the war even before the U.S got involved and dived into some lesser understood moments. Well worth a read
It be cool if you cover the secret war in Laos as well. It wasn't big as the vietnam war but a large portion of the fighters (Hmongs and other indigenous people) fighting for the Americans ended up migrating to the USA and France (as well as other NATO countries).
I binged what I care about channel. Ih god. We need more over simplified type channels.
My Grandfather was in the US Marines during Vietnam. My grandmother fought tooth and nail to get him home, even personally petitioning the Governor of North Carolina at the time to get him home.
Hey Chris, I was wondering if you’d like to do a reaction to Things I Care About’s video on the Korean War? In my opinion it is probably the most in depth video on the Korean War that I’ve personally seen and it sheds a lot of light on the atrocities committed on both sides which really shows how the war wasn’t as black and white as it is commonly made out to be.
I had just recently learned about the Vietnam war and as a 17 year old American I have to say that war is the exact reason why today so many people don’t trust the government, it just blows my mind
One thing with the OSS and the Viet Minh. The OSS officer also stood with ho chi minh during the speech for the declaration. At a Viet Minh check point later he was killed, they thought he was french.
You should see if you can find any good videos on the MACV SOG. One of my favorite historical military units to learn about.
Oh Chris' favorite president Woodrow Wilson shows up again. lol.
Would LOVE to see you react to the channel “This Is History”’s video on The Portuguese Empire. The narration, audio quality, music, story-telling, animation, everything is so so good
The summer before I started first grade in 77, my best friends dad, a Vietnam vet, laid down on his bed and put a 38 slug in his head. I never saw that kid again. It devastated the family.
Can remember knowing many other men shattered by that war. Dudes full of bullet holes.
And yet we still didn't learn, and sent another generation into the meat grinders in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Chris i am the same age as you and "What started the Vietnam War?" was the title of my 10th grade history project. I can tell you he is giving you the facts.
"Ho Ho Ho he had to go" lol
a few days about southeast Asia would be fascinating. Vietnam today, pol pot sometime later on, Thailand during ww2
Quick correction, Fort Moore is not named after Hal Moore, it is named after both Hal Moore and Julia Moore for both of their contributions to the US Army which are both depicted in the Movie We Were Soldiers.
Ho Chi Minh worked at the Parker House in Boston. Birthplace of Parker House Rolls and Boston Cream Pie. I know you've been to Boston and done the history stuff, but I would seriously love to give you my tour...
Also singing We Didn't Start the Fire...
If you want a very detailed view of the war. I highly reccomend Ken Burns 10 part documentary The Vietnam War. Its fantastic and goes all the way back to OSS involvement during ww2
My wife and I are both results of this terrible war. My dad met my mom because he served with her brother. My father inlaw married a vietnamese woman and brought her state side. Unfortunately my dad was hit with agent orange and lived with effects the rest of his life. Very educational video but somehow I'm not surprised to find we created the mess.
The problems that accompany independence were also common to revolutions in other parts of the world when ordinary people started to assert themselves and overthrow monarchies etc. The fight to decide which system replaced the one in place after the revolution most often led to more death than under the original system. The overthrow of Tsar in Russia is a prime example.
Ho Chi Mihn is one of the hardest figures I've ever researched because he had dozens of aliases, a largely fictionalized biography and lied so pathologically its hard to sus out what he was thinking. Not helping is that Communist Hanoi re-wrote the history when they won in 1977 and American academia (who were dupes for the Communists in the 60s) takes his lofty ideals and wonderful prose at face value while ignoring his tyranny and the fact that he violated every treaty he ever signed.
Good insight, I can see this being true.
Yeah we shouldn't inherently believe anything this dude says
19:18 And this is why Dwight Eisenhower is one of the greatest military minds in history. a great general also knows when NOT to fight.
The fact that the USA supported France’s colonialism over the independence of Vietnam was a bad start.
love the haircut
I have a B.A. in History. I did one of my thesis on the Vietnam war. Another crazy fact; before the battle of Dien Bien Phu, Americans provided 80% of the weapons and resources to the French during that time.
I think this channel gets a lot of credibility in my book because of the amount of direct sources. And these aren't from random people. Ike himself saying the election would have been lost was a massive thing to say
Fun fact: A lot of Americans now retire in Vietnam because it's a straight up better place to live
Luna oi done video rection to armchair historian Vietnam war from north vietnamese prospect but luna oi is same but from real vietnamese prospect she is actually from Vietnam has other showcasing bomb areas some are like mini lakes now
LBJ escalated the the war on Vietnam because of general dynamics, the oil people of Texas, Bell Helicopter who were big time donors to LBJ.
Fun fact that is little known about the First Indochina War. There were thousands of Japanese and French Foreign Legion soldiers who defected to the Viet Minh. The Legion soldiers came from all kind of backgrounds (Poland, Greece, Germany, North Africa, Czechoslovakia,etc…). Those soldiers were as known as “Những chiến sĩ Việt Nam mới” (The New Vietnamese soldiers). They served in various roles as officers, logistics, intelligence agent and medical staffs. After the war, most of them returned to their country through the Soviet Union or with the assistance of the Red Cross, but they often have to leave their Vietnamese family behind. One notable soldiers is Kostas Sarantidis, or Nguyễn Văn Lập, who was the only confirmed Greek soldier to fought along the Viet Minh. He was awarded the title of Hero of the People’s Armed Forces in 2013 and died at age 94 in 2021, he died in Greece but expressed his wish to be buried in Vietnam and was granted that. Another notable soldier was Stefan Kubiak, a Polish soldier in the Viet Minh ranks, he was actually adopted by President Hồ Chí Minh and named “Hồ Chí Toán”. He stayed in Vietnam until his death in 1963 due to Malaria and is currently buried in Hanoi.