Pontiac 400 Summit 2802 Camshaft First Start! How you can AVOID FAILURE!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 бер 2024
- Mounting the 400 Pontiac to the run stand, and the first startup.
Forsyth Tech:
www.forsythtech.edu/
Osprey Custom Cars:
www.ospreycustomcars.com/
#summitracing #pontiac #firebird - Авто та транспорт
Excellent! Very exciting. Thanks for the explanation of your set up process. As a former aviator and test pilot I really like your use of a written checklist - a definite risk reduction measure. Your engineering rigor really comes through with these videos Allan. Thanks for sharing with us.
Thanks Todd, C&E analysis coming up on your block Friday, should be interesting. AG
Nice start up. No drama. Just what you want. Looking forward to dyno results. Pontiacs just get cooler cause they don't make them anymore.
Thanks Dino, Pontiacs are iconic for sure. Preparation is the key to success in anything. AG
I love the fact you teach important aspects with every video you share.
Thanks Paul, that is my mission. Thanks for watching. AG
Back in the early 1980's Crane recommended warming engine oil on stove to help prevent cam failure during break-in.
You could just use a magnetic oil pan heater. A Racer Brown 'tip' was to 'overfill' the crankcase by a couple of quarts of oil to whip up a good splash & mist. The camshaft is primarily 'splash' lubricated.
Thanks guys, both good ideas. Dry sump cars like our super late model have heaters in the tank. AG
Hey AG,
Tim here, nice job!!!!!....sounded good, and we'll all pray that the cam/lifters STAY happy, with all the pooh goin around in flat tappet land.....i like the cam choice....i looked it up for the specs...just enuf rumble to know somethins there, and shud give GREAT throttle response, AND drivability......those #16 heads (right, did i remember right?).....will LOVE that cam, as its specs are VERY close to the old Wolverine 301 (i call it), from back in the day.....224/230 and a 110 LSA is a VERY smart choice for a 400 Poncho, with the '68 (or so) iron casting heads......i enjoyed the vid!!!....i'm gonna build a 400 for my lady soon, as my 600 hp 462, is a bit much tryin to just drive around.....again, ENJOYED the vid sir, TY!!
Thanks for your comments as always Tim. AG
Shew, that thing sounds like a sewing machine!!! NICE
Thanks Brandon, wait until you hear it on the dyno. AG
Thank you for another good video. I especially liked how you explained all about your engine stand and the start up checklist!!
Thanks for the comment Mrho. AG
Thank you for the video ,
looking forward to see the Dyno results
Thanks for watching Nerrad. AG
Another great video!
I am excited that you're testing a Pontiac 400. That's what I have in my 1976 firebird. It has 6X4 heads with stock flat top pistons. I don't know the compression but I'm guessing 8.5:1 maybe. I have a set of #13 heads I will be porting and another 400 block that's stronger that the one in there. Its a late model block 500557 which is thin wall so I will leave that one near stock. The thicker one came out of an old 1969 Grand Prix and when I get a moment I will build a hotter version with the #13 heads
You have quite extensive knowledge of Pontiac's Christopher.
IIRC to do that swap you'll need conversion motor mounts. I think the older blocks had a different mounting hole pattern? I know it's not a drop in, I'm sure you can find what to use.
Also they make nice stroker cranks for those 400s if you want it to be 455 cubes? The 455 only has a .030" larger bore from the factory than the 400 does so easy to do.😎👍
Sounds great!! 👍
Thanks Steve.
AG
Whether your 'Cam break-in' is successful (or not) has more to do with your parts selection than anything you 'do'. Decades past, lots of people just winged it and violated about every 'rule' the people 'in the know' claim you absolutely HAVE to follow now. If anybody these days is building with a HFT cam they're probably well aware of what they need to do (hopefully) procedurally.
Having the proper taper interface machining of the cam lobe AND the tappet is the single MOST IMPORTANT thing you need. As long this is OK, you can make some mistakes everywhere else, (and believe me people have), and you'll still come out OK. If this part of it is WRONG, NOTHING ELSE you can do will matter or make a difference to make up for it. It's doomed to failure.
That Summit cam is a fairly tame old General Kinetics lobe profile with long slow ramps. The biggest issue you'll face is quality lifters. Just about ALL LIFTERS MADE TODAY even the US ones are garbage! I wouldn't even use any unless they were made in the mid '90's or before. You can't tell by looking at the 'swirl' either. I ONLY use NOS old lifters and NEVER had an issue. They made a TON of them and they're ALL OVER in flea markets and swap meets, especially for GM's. Usually cheaper than the 'new' trash.
And it's complete BS that you need to get them to 'match' the MFR camshaft. The lobes/lifters from EVERYBODY are supposed to have the same engineered taper specs. There were 'only' 4 lifter makers in the peak production period. So what? They're supposed to recalibrate their production equipment for a 'Crane' lobe or a 'Cam Dynamics' lobe or an 'Engle' lobe? NO! Every cam maker sourced 'their' lifters from one of the 4 suppliers and used their packaging box. I NEVER had to look for 'specific' makers lifters. So, if you have one that gets 'sticky' you couldn't go to NAPA or Big A and just buy 1 replacement?
A lot of this disinfo started with Comp and their noisy 'fast rate' HFT cams that have such poorly designed ramps and increase the valvetrain stress with lifters lofting off the lobes even at idle. Other makers seem to be able to get it right without the wear and noise and better performance. How can you avoid failure? Easy, don't buy ANY junk 'new' parts.
For the first run I'd probably run a better oil filter than that 'Extra Guard', just my preference. You've got some great tips, really valid, but I would just scour the flea markets for some properly machined vintage parts and forget about the worry.
Thanks for the infomration Vince. AG
Alan do you do a prelube of your engines that is on a checklist before you get to the run up checklist. To me this is super important to know you are going to get oil pressure when it fires up and that a oil gallery plug has not been inadvertently missed.
Thanks Cabot. Actually I usually do it twice, once before I install the intake manifold, that way I can see the oil filling all the lifters. I also install an oil pressure gauge for this step. I will be demonstrating this in a future video. The next time is with the push rods, rocker arms etc installed. AG
. . Awesome.
Thanks AG
Local enthusiast from Ontario here, stumbled upon your channel while looking for Pontiac engine content, thank you for your videos! Also looking to build a Pontiac 400 Ram Air III engine with factory 12 heads (72cc published combustion chamber size) and would like to keep it premium pump gas friendly. Was wondering what was the static compression you hit on this engine? From previous video looks like you were running a pretty tight quench and not using dished pistons. Did you measure the dynamic compression? The larger LSA and later intake closing on this cam probably helped some with bleeding off the higher compression.
Thanks for the question El. I aim for static CR of 10.5 max. and cranking compression 180PSI max. The later IVCP has a major effect on DCR and cranking pressure, LSA does not. You can calculate all this with on line calculators. The final test is a compression test after brake in. Hope this helps. AG
Hey man, I’m in Mount Airy, about 30 mins from Winston Salem. Would love to talk to you a little bit about a Pontiac 400 I’m building for my 75 Formula Firebird.
Is it a Canadian thing to pronounce E-DEL-brock as L-Da-Brock?. Why, when the first 2 letters are ED, do Canadians say L???? it sounds odd. Nick's Garage does this also. Baltimore, MD speak says Zinc stoppers for an old time rubber sink stopper. You also can catch some of the old timers saying Earl instead of oil. Nice to see you are going to be doing a Mopar and a Blue Oval engine. Seems like as abundant as they were, no one is building a Flathead nowadays. Seems like there is a rejuvenation of the Y-block Fords, the 272, 292, and mostly the 312. Even aluminum heads are available and so is 600 HP if you have deep pockets.
Canada had British influence longer than the USA, you guys to the south dumped a bunch of tea in the Boston harbour, causing them to declare war. We just kept internally squabbling between regions until Britain finally got fed up trying to manage us and left us to our own devices (it took a hundred years for the plan to work, but now provincial squabbling is a national pastime). Quebec (Nicks garage), is another layer because it’s primarily French with British influences, and Nick is also Greek from what I can guess.
This western Canadian & everyone I know says Ed L Brock.
But then again you say Huh, we say Eh!🙃🙂
So what specific things were you looking for after the cam break-in to confirm all was good? Also, you mentioned that you brought the engine up to temperature and shut it down before you did the actual cam break-in? Did you do this at idle or varying speeds to get to temp? Thanks for another great Pontiac engine video!
Thanks for the question and sorry for the misunderstanding G3. The cam gets broken in during the initial start up. Always keep the RPM above 2000. This splashes more oil in the lifter valley and then onto the cam. I do vary the speed between 2000-2500RPM. After it reaches 180-200 degrees, I shut it down and let it cool off. During this time I remove the valve covers and check the valves. Then i repeat the process. It may take 3-4 cycles to get 30 minutes of run time. Now, you can let it idle. Hope this helps. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thanks so much for taking the time to answer this AG! This makes perfect sense.
Alan isn’t 22.5 degrees of distributor rotation going to give you more like 45 crank degrees of initial advance
Thank you very much for catching this Cabot. You are correct. 45 is a lot, it will crank hard but still start. A better way would be to set the timing marks on the balancer at 22 degrees or so, then align the rotor exactly with the #1 tower on the cap. I appreciate your input. AG
Sounds good Allen,do you usually do the 2500rpm for the first 20min right from initial startup like the cam companies always recommend? I do a similar check list so they fire immediately also.. I’ll leave the rad cap off n shove the garden hose in on low to keep temperatures stable and let them sing at 2500. I always follow with a lube n filter change and knock on wood haven’t lost one yet. But I’m hearing enough horror stories to lead me to believe QC sucks by today’s standards and think I’ll be going all rollers from here on out.. Good work, those ponchos run strong! You Still doin that pair of 302dz motors?
Thanks for the comments Phil. I usually run at 2500RPM or so until it reaches 180-200 degrees. It takes about 10 minutes. Shut it down, check all the valves while it is cooling down, then repeat.
Yes we are still doing the 302's. The first block is back from the MS. I will be doing a video about it soon.AG
Nice video! What's the expected Horse Power when you dyno it?
Thanks for the question Michael. Probably somewhere around 350. watch for the dyno video. AG
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Thanks You! AG
Why didn't you use the 455 rotating assembly in the 400? All you would of had to do is have the mains ground down from 3.25" to 3.00" and it would drop right in. Or a stroker crank to make it a 455 and use the 455 pistons and rods?🤷
Not sure what kind of internals the 400 has, did you guys get forged rods or are the factory cast rods? What rods did the 455 have, the Super Duty forged rods or cast? Did the 455 have better pistons? What about the 455 heads, are they better than the 400 heads?
What was wrong with the 455 cam and lifters, why weren't those salvaged? Seems like a shame to go from a 455 to a 400 when he didn't have to.🤔🤷
There were many factors influencing the direction that Joe decided on. The 455 cam and lifters were in early stage of failure, (the lifters were concave). Joe used H beam rods in the new build. AG
@@goldsgarage8236
Did he know he could of made that 400 into a 455? H-beam rods work in a 455 too, I'm all for that upgrade. Not trying to put down the 400 build just curious if he knew he could of still had a 455?
Those 455 parts that are still good have value, like the heads, crank, intake, timing cover, oil pan.....etc... and possibly the block can be repaired with a sleeve? Hopefully he doesn't just junk the whole thing, if he's ok not running a 455 someone else might be looking for a crank so they can?🤷
AG, where did you purchase the engine stand kit from?
Thanks for the question Steve. You can buy the kit from Summit.
Larin Corporation Mobile Engine Testing Stations METS-1
Part Number: LAR-METS-1.
I have a video we made last year detailing
how you can build and modify this kit to suit your needs. ua-cam.com/video/rOvK9GtvfnU/v-deo.htmlsi=_9o9PRRq5fyZhA42
AG
Alan,do you change the oil after the first run time or when do you change the first break in oil?
Thanks
Good question David, I will change the oil and filter tomorrow, before delivering the engine to the dyno. AG
You avoid failure by not using flat tappet cams.
Well that for sure is one way. But IT"S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. There's been 100's of MILLIONS cars run over 8+ decades and no 'massive pandemic of failures'. What do you think changed? Go back to what USED to work. I don't know why anyone would invest $2500+ to retrofit a HRT cam in a car they realistically hardly run. Buy the right oil and some DECENT parts and forget about it. If teenagers just learning in the '60's, '70's and '80's can figure it out and succeed, 'it ain't that hard' with 'good' parts.
Thanks Eric. That is one way and many machine shops will not build an engine with a flat tappet cam. AG
Make sure your lifters are rotating!, my pontiac summit 2802 had the taper ground on the lobes backward and wouldnt rotate any lifters. Caught it on the stand luckily. Cam sits on the shelf rusting away now.
Check, check, check! I agree. AG
Looked up specs. A 114lsa. Might a tighter lsa increase midrange torque? Though a 114 will carry on up top of rpm. Idle will be better. Your intent? Thanks.
Thanks for the comment Pat, every street cam is a compromise. AG