Geoffrey... having adopted your Myford ML7 series as my bible for my Super 7 "tidy-up", I finally needed to hook up the reversing drum-switch. At the end of that video was a link to this one, which I had somehow previously missed. It took me back many years, to sitting on a stool beside an inherited Acorn Tools shaper, which itself was on the floor because I had nothing strong enough to support it! I used it to make a Quick-change tool post for the Myford. I later swapped it for a Rodney-Myford milling attachment, which was a bit of a disappointment. Anyway, at 12:25 you produced "The Book"... I immediately turned to the bookshelf behind me, and sure enough, with its home-done protective vinyl cover was my long-departed Father's Thirteenth Edition from 1948! Memories... Thanks again.
The process of generating involute gear teeth involves a formed cutter representing a single tooth of a meshed rack translated in synchrony with the blank roll at the pitch diameter. The Fellowes gear shaper worked via this principle but used a rotating cutter, itself having a generated tooth profile. I'm quite sure many a machinist passed the time watching long cuts musing the problem of making generated gear teeth with simple apparatus. The magazine article you referenced illustrated the tight band method but some improvement could be made - specifically indexing. Instead of returning to a reference location to index the blank (setscrews may move the hub relative to the shaft when tightened), I suggest you re-arrange things on your arbor. Pin the pitch diameter drum (the part the wire attaches) to the gear you're using as an index reference. Allow the drum/index assembly to rotate on the mandrel. Mount a hub with a shot pin that engages the index tooth space and lock it to the mandrel. The procedure: cut a space, traverse back to the starting point, pull the shot pin, rotate the mandrel/blank/index one increment, re-engage the shot pin, cut the next space, etc. The wire has elasticity suggesting it's stretch may affect the cut profile at varying engagement. I recommend the shortest possible distance between wire attachments - or a ribbon in lieu of a wire cable - or both. And leave finish stock. A light final cut will be less affected by the wire's elasticity. I suggest you acquire a gear tooth caliper. The old school vernier gear tooth calipers are still to be found but are expensive - in the $300 to $800 range. Import digital gear tooth calipers, while (yuck!) imported, work quite well in my experience. Heres an Amazon link: www.amazon.com/Machine-DRO-ME-CAL-GEAR-25-Digital-Calipers/dp/B00DS9IGQA This tool, though expensive, will enable you to grind your tool to the desired tip width and cut the tooth to width at the pitch diameter - and they have many other uses. The alternative is measuring pinswhich are not only more accurate but metrologically definitive. However, some study and calculation is involved in the use of measuring pins. Drill shanks of equal size may be substituted for gear measuring pins. There are formula for calculating compensation to be used for non-standard gear tooth measuring pins. Consult the Van Keuren Catalog #36. It has more formula for calculating measuring pin data than you really need to know but I reference it for the readers who delight in arcana. Gear cutting is one of the most technical tasks for a machinist. Anyone can chomp out a gear looking thing that may or may not mesh with a mating gear. But if accurately cut gears are to be made, a certain amount of book study, vocabulary assimilation, and calculation will be necessary. The Diametral Pitch and Metric Module gear systems are highly evolved and standardized resulting in a cookbook simple method of calculating the manufacturing data necessary for gear cutting. My high school math teachers without exception made their topic cryptic, boring, and excruciating to me. I graduated hating mathematics yet a few years later in my apprentice training, I managed to understand and work the many formulas preliminary to gear manufacture. So, based on my example, the computational side of gear cutting is within the grasp of most anyone with a need willing to study. Your set-up demonstrated the principles and potential errors of involute cutting on a shaper perfectly.
Having put far too much time into thinking about this type of setup, it always seemed like a mistake to me to ignore the diameter of the wire when making the pitch circle diameter blank. This blank would be theoretically "rolling" down the outer edge of the guide wire, which would make it necessary to take into account the thickness of the wire when turning the blank. Of course there are many other variables, as you said. But this is one variable I've not seen mentioned before.
Did something like this back in '89.....I used a shaper and a dividing head with a 4 gear train. I was making a stub gear (3/4 pitch) The dividing head was a VanNorman with an input shaft that turned the 40 to 1 worm. It needed a spline shaft to slide through the generating gear train. I saw the pitch diameter problem right away.....good work on you anyway. Your production skills are among the best on UA-cam.
11:54 This, the projects chosen and your authentic personality makes your channel top notch! Waiting for your next video is like waiting for a special present! Many thanks for sharing your great work with us!
Ahah! I swear I was watching carefully but I wasn't understanding how the hell it would have worked. Only at 10:08 I started to get it. Lol. How smart! Epic video mate, love the edit.
Rustinox shared this with me, and I'm glad he did! I had never heard of this method until he shared a copy of that Model Engineer article with me and sent me your link. I've been wanting to learn gear making and it would be even cooler to make them on my shaper, so thank you for sharing your experiences and results. Nothing was ever perfect in the first run, I learned a lot from what you shared here, thanks for doing that!
what make is yours?? The Klopp 450 purchased Nov 25th 21, will be at our shop on Dec 4th,,,Going be watching all about shapers , and subscribing to others that own them (@@). Bear
So... use a rack on the sample gear for both the indexing and the locomotion. Those wires are part of the issue. The shaft should have some ability to slide, so you can slide the shaft and sample gear out, rotate it one notch, then mesh back into the rack.
This is exactly what I was going to post. You could even have the rack on a hinge, spring loaded on top of the spur gear. To advance, lift the rack, rotate the part, and drop it back down. As long as the rack is parallel to the table, your locomotion and indexing should work fine. This would also let you change out the spur gears you are duplicating without having to mess with other parameters besides the height of the hinge.
The rack meshing with the index gear will work very well; however, to cut any gear you would always have to have an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, and the same DP as the rack. Indeed, with your present set-up you need an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, albeit that it can be any DP or module. I think slipping of the wire drive induced by the cutting process is the problem, combined with the accuracy of the diameter of the wheel being driven by the wire. Perhaps have a few more turns of the wire around the wheel, and an index mark on the wheel and wire to ensure that they returns to the same place after the completion of each tooth. The diameter of the wheel, and the thickness of the wire need careful consideration and accurate measurement and maybe some trial and error.
If I was a really good review writer, I would write a long review about how awesome this video is with all its eeriness and effects. BRILLIANT! Im not even a metal-worker of anysorts, engineer or anything else related to it. I just have a general understanding and interest in these kind of things. Never worked machines like this. But you had me entertained and soaking up the content 100% of the time. 10/10 !
@Bottleflask : Be careful... Be very VERY careful! Unprotected exposure to this type of content can result in your induction as a fledgling engineer! Then again, as you posted your comment three years ago, you are probably a fully-fledged engineer by now anyway. Have you made any interesting projects lately? You most likely qualify for the wall poster that says "A weak ago I cudn't evun spel 'Injunear'... and now I are wun!" Geoffrey's video captivated me too! 😵💫
@@PiefacePete46 Haha, wonderful response. My title today actually IS Project Engineer!! I do work with a lot of engineers, but Im afraid I got my title without going to school as an actual engineer. I went down a automation programming path, and do the same work as several types of engineers do, but not the kind we are looking at here. So contrary to my original comment, I am indeed related to engineers now :D My last home project was making a spinning disk as flat as possible for my 100kg whiskey-barrel-bucket full of dirt for a literal tree, which is in my living room. As no one can stop me when I have a bad idea, I will say that getting the bucket onto the spinning platform ALONE, with tree in it, when it was done, was probably more of an engineering feat than making the "contraption" itself. However, I did indeed succeed, and wife lady was pleasantly surprised when she returned home. And I had bruises up and down both arms, but I enjoyed creating and assembling!
@@Nikkeftw : It's interesting the paths our lives take... my son, who is in his late forties, has worked as a Programmer/Analyst since he left school. He has worked at the same desk for all that time, yet he has worked for six employers, in name at least. He has had more job titles than I can follow, including a recent one with the word "Architect" in it... he has never touched a drafting table, scale rule, or CAD program in his life... go figure! 😜
I've seen that tolerance stack up happen on a CNC indexer. They engineer rounded the degree on the on print. The indexer was a brand new replacement with a different style controller then the previous one. So we typed in the print degree and started running. It had roughly 100 2" long slots in it. After 2 hours of running and everything looking good I got the exact same result. It was not a good day. Great video.
Haven’t seen the inventiveness and creativity since the classic, “This Old Tony” videos. I have to say, Bravo! Your answer is either a dividing head, or a rack and pinion set..
Instead of wire you can use a rack to run the indexing gear on. Rack fixed to the machine (with screws). You will index and rotate at the same time. I love your work and funny storytelling
I was thinking the same thing, as long as you could adjust the height of the rack it shouldn't matter the size of the heat your cutting, just the number of teeth. So you could have a set of three same modulus gears and rack and be able to chance teeth counts. It should index better because it would be an average of the teeth it's using.
Here's an idea. Make an adapter for the end of shaper ram, that drives a crank that turns a spindle. Cylindrical grind a standard tool taper on the inside. Then you have a milling machine. Now all you need is to follow the existing instructions for making gears on milling machines... Really though - beautiful video making, an absolute inspiration. As for the indexing problem. I think if you look for and tighten up the inaccuracies of "the contraption", you'll do ok. I think you're on the right track and I wouldn't change anything major in your setup - just debug what you have. There is almost zero side to side force so solid levers will not be better than (potentially stretchy) cable. Just debug the setup, find the source of the error, I think. Cheers, Craig
Timing belt maybe?, that being said, I think you're an artist, I really loved the lathe shots, the lighting, everything is perfect. And the humour, man, I was laughing or grinning the entire time. I worked the shaper for a while at my job, truly an amazing machine, I'm eagerly waiting for mk2, and starting to crank my brainshaft into how I could build a fork of this project.
Great video. Entertaining as usual. I like your iterative approach to the design challenge. If only I had a shaper, or room for a shaper. But, since This Old Tony made it illegal to sell them I have no chance.
Loved the video! cutting gears the old-school way is super attractive to me. somehow it's very trendy nowadays to make everything super complicated and pretend as if it can't be done without thousands of dollars of precision equipment. but people did it back in the day using rudimentary tools and sometimes with better results than what some achieve using fancy tools.
@Pouyan : The more I watch modern machine tools perform digital magic, the more I am in awe of the craftsmen engineers of old!... how did they achieve those things?
@@GeoffreyCrokerHi Geoffrey, Eric from Adelaide here. if you have a spare gear that is the same as you want to make, cut it into quarters and take one of the quarters and use it like you used the piece of aluminium . have it so it slides along and into the gear on the shaft. It will be more accurate. i am sure you can elaborate on this idea. good luck.
somewhere in another country i have an old book maybe from the 1960's "The Amatures Lathe" bt LH Sparey.. in that he shows how to cut gears using a milling attachment on the crossslide of a little old Myford lathe its a great old resource if you can find it anywhere !
Well done! - loved the video . . for the first time I understand how these gears are cut like that. your suggested solution - is to use the index gear itself to with a rack-gear mounted on top of it - as the table to the left it rols the work piece - when you need to shift the tooth then it just shifts one gear notch up and repeat.
I love the video, I love all the great comments about how to improve on your design. me personally, I would have used the shaper as it was intended. grind/buy a gear cutter that you need. without a shadow graph it would be very hard to precisely match the grind needed. buying the proper cutter, mounting it to the spindle you made and taking .020 step downs from z until full depth is reached. then rotating manually to the next tooth and repeat. they actually make gear cutting heads that you can mount to your planer. they have a series of graduated dots and you turn a handle to get you exact rotation need for next tooth. anyways loved the video anyway, single point radius cutting on a rotation is pretty cool.
I probably don't have the best interpretation of gear cutting but...why not grind the tool to be the involute shape. Mount the blank on the indexer. Feed the shaper table up to a limit as the shaper cuts deep into the blank. I know this requires more accurate tool grinding but it eliminates the apparently error prone wire mechanism. It appears that you are trying to replicate how gears are hobbed (one tooth at a time) which would be more advanced than the first attempt of making gears on a shaper. For that matter, if this were being done for the first time where would the indexing gear come from?
There are some clever guys out there and you sir are one of them. Perseverance is the key. I was brought up on gear geometry back in the day, it wasn't easy to understand then and I'm pretty sure things haven't changed. ...ah .....the mysteries of the involute...😫😫
I never know that such a simple cutting machine can do gear cutting like that ! It is really amazing ! Thanks for sharing and looking forward for your next upload !
A rack and pinion with a set travel length and a lifter on the rack side can reliably replace the wire provided that a preload to one side is used to prevent backlash. The Lifter could also do the rotate after travel mechanism and the slow rotate mechanism using limit switches and a pair of small hydraulic cylinders connected with valves and a pump to alternating between aligning teeth and rotating mechanism while cutting.
Exactly how I expected my first gear cutting attempt to go! As I was watching you make the guide to fit into the gear teeth, I thought it might be a lot more accurate if your tool did not seat all the way into the teeth. You should cut an angle that is shallower than the depth, that way it will exactly find the midpoint every time. It might also be a good idea to load it with some spring tension.
UA-cam almighty algorithm sent me here for no reason, this is kinda not my thing to watch, but, somehow 10 minutes later i realized that time is gone, and i will never get it back... But i enjoyed it very muc, and the time i lost is not wasted for no reason. All the sounds and effects properly placed in the video and the ASMR of the workshop, machinery sounds along with wise words. Its just perfect. The only question i have : How long it took to film and edit all this beauty. Keep it up, never quit, take your time ;)
First video of yours I've watched, and I like it! The production values & editing are top-notch! You're like the Antipodean This Old Tony. I'm also a shaper owner. OK, I'll admit, I haven't read all 289 (at the time of writing) comments. And I've only cut a few gears, and they didn't turn out that great either... so with that grain of salt.... Here are my meager suggestions: a) Decide which is more important, the outcome or the exploration. If the outcome is what you want... it's vastly easier to create a gear hob on the lathe, and then make the gears using the hob in the lathe. It cuts all the teeth at once, and doesn't require high-precision indexing, only low-precision "gashing" which is just roughing cuts to get the hob started. b) If the exploration of cutting gears on a shaper is more important, try these things: 1) If you have a gear with the correct number of teeth (diameter is irrelevant) get a rack that matches the the pressure angle angle and pitch. Use the gear rigidly attached to the indexer shaft, and the rack is stationary and rotates the indexer as the table moves. This eliminates the wire lash-up which is suspect on repeatability. 2) This is a heavier lift, but if you have the means to produce a multiple-toothed cutter for the shaper (you could, literally, split a hob down the middle... you'd just need to figure out how to hold it in the clapper box), that will both speed up the cutting and help make the tooth spacing more regular.
Interesting project. Replace the wire and wheel for a rack and pinion and I think you will have a greater chance for success. And perhaps integrate the dividing mechanism into the pinion as well. A simple way could be to have the axle running freely inside the pinion and have the corresponding dimples, depending on the division of the manufactured gear, drilled into it and a locking lug on the pinion to engage into said dimples. If you use the same pitch and module on the rack, pinion and gear to cut, I guess you could just step the pinion over for indexing.
That was actually genius! :D A sort of "Rack" cutter would work, too, so instead of one cutting tooth you have several side by each, and instead of moving the whole jig slowly from one side to the other, you raise it slowly up into the cutter. Then just drop it back down, index the gear round one tooth, and go again.
First off, great video, very inspiring! Reading through the article a few times, I notice it says the tool should be made "to the form of a rack tooth", which makes sense since rack teeth have straight sides. According to the Machinery's Handbook, and if my math is right, that would make the tip width = (0.5 π - 2.5 tan φ) / P. (P = diametral pitch, φ = pressure angle). For instance, for a 24 pitch gear, the tip width would be 0.028". Can't wait to try it myself!
...and after finishing “this little problem” I would be excited to learn how to shape (generate) internal gears ! Not kidding... Thanks for your interesting video.
Somewhat disappointed there's not a comment from @This Old Tony hiding in here somewhere, revealing the magic answer. On a side note, the UA-cam algorithm recommended one of your videos based on God knows what. Delighted to have found this channel, as the presentation quality and humor are first-rate.
I have read the same article and thought about it. I believe the article mentions using "piano wire" to drive the rotation of the shaft holding the gear blank as it is being machined. You did not use piano wire. Piano wire will be a single wire that has a very high tensile strength, that is, it does not stretch. One other setup I have seen used a stout spring to load the wire. If one looks at a piano one sees wires that are wound with another wire; the core is the piano wire; the winding wire just weights the wire to tune the resonant vibration of the particular note. Presumably the success of this method requires accuracy in the placement of the wire's center at the proper radius on the driven blank and "rigidity", that is to say, no slippage of the wire on the driven blank. Thus a rigid wire and taut constriction of the wire on the driven blank is required. Your effort was doomed to failure with your selection of the cable to drive the driven blank.I suspect a substitution of real piano wire, adequate loading of the wire tension and attention to the accurate diameter of the wire on the driven blank will give you a better if not an excellent result.If you really want to confuse yourself see if you can cut an accurate bevel gear on a shaper. There is a work around using a dividing head and offsetting the cutter to approximate a bevel gear. Apparently two such gears thus constructed will mesh well with each other. I believe that there is a method to cut a true involute bevel gear using a shaper but the rotation is controlled differently. I once found this method described in a patent application and believe it was used in a type of gear cutter.
Ya know I downloaded that exact article pdf YEARS AGO .... with great intentions of trying it on my Elliot 24" shaper but never got around to it... 🙄😂 Nice first try & as The Metal Butcher said, maybe u can use a rack instead of the wire... but NO BACKLASH allowed !! That myford (ml7 ? ) is lookin clean, mine has been beaten into the ground over the last 40 years, kinda like meself 🤕 btw.... U said at the beginning that the involute ground tool would be specific to a particular tooth number but commercial involute cutters (same profile as yours) are used for a range of tooth counts ! Subbed & liked my man !! From the Emerald Isle 😎👍☘️ Edit... Just peeped into yer archives & seen the lathe before u restored it !! I might have a go with me own now that you've inspired me.... beautiful job !! 🤗
Perhaps some research on the Maag gear shaper would help. This is a brilliant attempt at the method you have done. I work in the custom gears manufacturing industry. I'll be following along.
A few people have got in touch telling me about this guy JB from OZ - including the guy himself - never met a shy Aussie :) - who has a video of this same shaper method. I haven't watched the video properly yet, but it looks the goods. Check it out if you're interested. ua-cam.com/video/XNPXZgq7E4c/v-deo.html
Thanks David! Referring to my Morris Minor Ute EV conversion? (E-Minor), the Daimler’s? Or the Austin Healeys? I do love my JCB Backhoe though, also could count! Glad you like them, plenty more content to come there too
Great video! Yes, this is indeed the reason why there so often are at least one of those old shapers left in a corner of even the most modern metal workshops ;) Unfortunatly i cannot realy help You but i think something that can lock a given position for each turn possibly would help...
Get an indexer for sure. as far as a simple way to do the linear to rotary motion, you may be able to use a tap in your lathe in combination with the milling attachment and a fixture to mount a gear blank to legitimately hob a gear of the same tooth count and pitch as your desired gear. Then simply use a piece of threaded rod as a rack, or make the rack on the shaper. another option is to just mechanically link the rotary movement with gears.
Sir , as always informative and expertly executed it is sometimes a bumpy road to success!! Brilliant way to start a rainy English summers day here in the 🇬🇧 Regards Robert Partsmade
Oof that last tooth! But in all seriousness you could have "flat gear" meshed with your indexing gear. So you slide the plate through the bottom of the round gear in increments to set your cut.... I'm tired
This is good. Not heard of this channel before. Subscribed. I'm in the process of making a 40T gear on my Boxford 8" shaper using a H/V 6" Vertex Rotab. DOC will be the trickiest bit i reckon. Wish me luck. That Viceroy looks like a modern squared off version of the old Royal / Alba / Elliot 10" shapers. Regards, fellow shaper freak,
"An easy failure, is the road to success...."... I like it!
Seriously dude, this is video art, its above and beyond instruction on a very high level! And the humor is just awesome!
Geoffrey... having adopted your Myford ML7 series as my bible for my Super 7 "tidy-up", I finally needed to hook up the reversing drum-switch. At the end of that video was a link to this one, which I had somehow previously missed. It took me back many years, to sitting on a stool beside an inherited Acorn Tools shaper, which itself was on the floor because I had nothing strong enough to support it! I used it to make a Quick-change tool post for the Myford. I later swapped it for a Rodney-Myford milling attachment, which was a bit of a disappointment. Anyway, at 12:25 you produced "The Book"... I immediately turned to the bookshelf behind me, and sure enough, with its home-done protective vinyl cover was my long-departed Father's Thirteenth Edition from 1948! Memories... Thanks again.
Easily the most entertaining (and interesting) channel on UA-cam. EASILY
The process of generating involute gear teeth involves a formed cutter representing a single tooth of a meshed rack translated in synchrony with the blank roll at the pitch diameter. The Fellowes gear shaper worked via this principle but used a rotating cutter, itself having a generated tooth profile. I'm quite sure many a machinist passed the time watching long cuts musing the problem of making generated gear teeth with simple apparatus.
The magazine article you referenced illustrated the tight band method but some improvement could be made - specifically indexing. Instead of returning to a reference location to index the blank (setscrews may move the hub relative to the shaft when tightened), I suggest you re-arrange things on your arbor. Pin the pitch diameter drum (the part the wire attaches) to the gear you're using as an index reference. Allow the drum/index assembly to rotate on the mandrel. Mount a hub with a shot pin that engages the index tooth space and lock it to the mandrel. The procedure: cut a space, traverse back to the starting point, pull the shot pin, rotate the mandrel/blank/index one increment, re-engage the shot pin, cut the next space, etc.
The wire has elasticity suggesting it's stretch may affect the cut profile at varying engagement. I recommend the shortest possible distance between wire attachments - or a ribbon in lieu of a wire cable - or both. And leave finish stock. A light final cut will be less affected by the wire's elasticity.
I suggest you acquire a gear tooth caliper. The old school vernier gear tooth calipers are still to be found but are expensive - in the $300 to $800 range. Import digital gear tooth calipers, while (yuck!) imported, work quite well in my experience. Heres an Amazon link: www.amazon.com/Machine-DRO-ME-CAL-GEAR-25-Digital-Calipers/dp/B00DS9IGQA This tool, though expensive, will enable you to grind your tool to the desired tip width and cut the tooth to width at the pitch diameter - and they have many other uses. The alternative is measuring pinswhich are not only more accurate but metrologically definitive. However, some study and calculation is involved in the use of measuring pins.
Drill shanks of equal size may be substituted for gear measuring pins. There are formula for calculating compensation to be used for non-standard gear tooth measuring pins. Consult the Van Keuren Catalog #36. It has more formula for calculating measuring pin data than you really need to know but I reference it for the readers who delight in arcana.
Gear cutting is one of the most technical tasks for a machinist. Anyone can chomp out a gear looking thing that may or may not mesh with a mating gear. But if accurately cut gears are to be made, a certain amount of book study, vocabulary assimilation, and calculation will be necessary. The Diametral Pitch and Metric Module gear systems are highly evolved and standardized resulting in a cookbook simple method of calculating the manufacturing data necessary for gear cutting.
My high school math teachers without exception made their topic cryptic, boring, and excruciating to me. I graduated hating mathematics yet a few years later in my apprentice training, I managed to understand and work the many formulas preliminary to gear manufacture. So, based on my example, the computational side of gear cutting is within the grasp of most anyone with a need willing to study.
Your set-up demonstrated the principles and potential errors of involute cutting on a shaper perfectly.
Nice post Forrest.. 😎👍☘🍺
Having put far too much time into thinking about this type of setup, it always seemed like a mistake to me to ignore the diameter of the wire when making the pitch circle diameter blank. This blank would be theoretically "rolling" down the outer edge of the guide wire, which would make it necessary to take into account the thickness of the wire when turning the blank. Of course there are many other variables, as you said. But this is one variable I've not seen mentioned before.
Didn't understand shit but your authoritative writing probably makes the above 100% correct.
Mate I love the journey you took me on. I was devastated seeing that last tooth! Cant wait for the next iteration.
Spoilers bro
Did something like this back in '89.....I used a shaper and a dividing head with a 4 gear train. I was making a stub gear (3/4 pitch) The dividing head was a VanNorman with an input shaft that turned the 40 to 1 worm. It needed a spline shaft to slide through the generating gear train. I saw the pitch diameter problem right away.....good work on you anyway. Your production skills are among the best on UA-cam.
Glad to see an update! Can't wait to see the rover complete.
11:54 This, the projects chosen and your authentic personality makes your channel top notch! Waiting for your next video is like waiting for a special present! Many thanks for sharing your great work with us!
Ahah! I swear I was watching carefully but I wasn't understanding how the hell it would have worked. Only at 10:08 I started to get it. Lol. How smart! Epic video mate, love the edit.
Cheers Black Beard!
When outvolute teeth are called for.
Rustinox shared this with me, and I'm glad he did! I had never heard of this method until he shared a copy of that Model Engineer article with me and sent me your link. I've been wanting to learn gear making and it would be even cooler to make them on my shaper, so thank you for sharing your experiences and results. Nothing was ever perfect in the first run, I learned a lot from what you shared here, thanks for doing that!
what make is yours?? The Klopp 450 purchased Nov 25th 21, will be at our shop on Dec 4th,,,Going be watching all about shapers , and subscribing to others that own them (@@). Bear
So... use a rack on the sample gear for both the indexing and the locomotion. Those wires are part of the issue. The shaft should have some ability to slide, so you can slide the shaft and sample gear out, rotate it one notch, then mesh back into the rack.
That sounds like a plausible concept !! 😎👍☘️
Great minds think alike sir, i just wrote something very similar and then found your comment lol. Hopefully he sees and gives it a go
Was checking to see if someone else had thought what I was thinking. You wrote it so much better than I would have.
This is exactly what I was going to post. You could even have the rack on a hinge, spring loaded on top of the spur gear. To advance, lift the rack, rotate the part, and drop it back down. As long as the rack is parallel to the table, your locomotion and indexing should work fine. This would also let you change out the spur gears you are duplicating without having to mess with other parameters besides the height of the hinge.
The rack meshing with the index gear will work very well; however, to cut any gear you would always have to have an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, and the same DP as the rack. Indeed, with your present set-up you need an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, albeit that it can be any DP or module. I think slipping of the wire drive induced by the cutting process is the problem, combined with the accuracy of the diameter of the wheel being driven by the wire. Perhaps have a few more turns of the wire around the wheel, and an index mark on the wheel and wire to ensure that they returns to the same place after the completion of each tooth. The diameter of the wheel, and the thickness of the wire need careful consideration and accurate measurement and maybe some trial and error.
How can 100 people give a thumbs down?? I am an engineer and a machinist and I learned a lot from this video. Thank you for making it.
they fell for the metric propaganda, notice the nice round number divisible by 10
If I was a really good review writer, I would write a long review about how awesome this video is with all its eeriness and effects. BRILLIANT! Im not even a metal-worker of anysorts, engineer or anything else related to it. I just have a general understanding and interest in these kind of things. Never worked machines like this. But you had me entertained and soaking up the content 100% of the time. 10/10 !
@Bottleflask : Be careful... Be very VERY careful! Unprotected exposure to this type of content can result in your induction as a fledgling engineer!
Then again, as you posted your comment three years ago, you are probably a fully-fledged engineer by now anyway. Have you made any interesting projects lately?
You most likely qualify for the wall poster that says "A weak ago I cudn't evun spel 'Injunear'... and now I are wun!"
Geoffrey's video captivated me too! 😵💫
@@PiefacePete46 Haha, wonderful response. My title today actually IS Project Engineer!! I do work with a lot of engineers, but Im afraid I got my title without going to school as an actual engineer. I went down a automation programming path, and do the same work as several types of engineers do, but not the kind we are looking at here.
So contrary to my original comment, I am indeed related to engineers now :D
My last home project was making a spinning disk as flat as possible for my 100kg whiskey-barrel-bucket full of dirt for a literal tree, which is in my living room. As no one can stop me when I have a bad idea, I will say that getting the bucket onto the spinning platform ALONE, with tree in it, when it was done, was probably more of an engineering feat than making the "contraption" itself. However, I did indeed succeed, and wife lady was pleasantly surprised when she returned home. And I had bruises up and down both arms, but I enjoyed creating and assembling!
@@Nikkeftw : It's interesting the paths our lives take... my son, who is in his late forties, has worked as a Programmer/Analyst since he left school. He has worked at the same desk for all that time, yet he has worked for six employers, in name at least. He has had more job titles than I can follow, including a recent one with the word "Architect" in it... he has never touched a drafting table, scale rule, or CAD program in his life... go figure! 😜
I've seen that tolerance stack up happen on a CNC indexer. They engineer rounded the degree on the on print. The indexer was a brand new replacement with a different style controller then the previous one. So we typed in the print degree and started running. It had roughly 100 2" long slots in it. After 2 hours of running and everything looking good I got the exact same result. It was not a good day. Great video.
Haven’t seen the inventiveness and creativity since the classic, “This Old Tony” videos. I have to say, Bravo! Your answer is either a dividing head, or a rack and pinion set..
I subscribed as soon as I saw the shaper. It got way better after that, you sir are a legend
Instead of wire you can use a rack to run the indexing gear on. Rack fixed to the machine (with screws). You will index and rotate at the same time. I love your work and funny storytelling
I was thinking the same thing, as long as you could adjust the height of the rack it shouldn't matter the size of the heat your cutting, just the number of teeth. So you could have a set of three same modulus gears and rack and be able to chance teeth counts. It should index better because it would be an average of the teeth it's using.
I can't wait to see that Rover get done looking forward to the next part!
Here's an idea. Make an adapter for the end of shaper ram, that drives a crank that turns a spindle. Cylindrical grind a standard tool taper on the inside. Then you have a milling machine. Now all you need is to follow the existing instructions for making gears on milling machines...
Really though - beautiful video making, an absolute inspiration.
As for the indexing problem. I think if you look for and tighten up the inaccuracies of "the contraption", you'll do ok. I think you're on the right track and I wouldn't change anything major in your setup - just debug what you have. There is almost zero side to side force so solid levers will not be better than (potentially stretchy) cable. Just debug the setup, find the source of the error, I think.
Cheers,
Craig
I think yer right Craig... superglue ? 🙄😂😂😂😂
EVERYBODY knows araldite makes a proper keyway !! 😏
😎👍☘️
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 :-)
This is a commendable initiative. The people need to take back gear cutting!
I work in a gear shop in the US and gotta say very cool man. Hats off to you for a great video and commentary. Keep up the good work.
12:21 "Americanos nr. 1 defense against metric propaganda" I can't stop laughing :D :D Hilarious :D
Made me laugh out loud as well! Love it!
sweet jesus me either, i need air
Hahhhaha. Love it dude..😂😂
Me and my girlfriend are binge watching your videos from time to time, they are briliant, can't wait for the second part!
I wish I could find a woman that binge watched machining videos with me. That's a truly special person you found
Timing belt maybe?, that being said, I think you're an artist, I really loved the lathe shots, the lighting, everything is perfect. And the humour, man, I was laughing or grinning the entire time.
I worked the shaper for a while at my job, truly an amazing machine, I'm eagerly waiting for mk2, and starting to crank my brainshaft into how I could build a fork of this project.
Really knocking it out the park with the editing Mr. Croker!
Freaking finally . Never missed someones voice this much .
Great video. Entertaining as usual. I like your iterative approach to the design challenge. If only I had a shaper, or room for a shaper. But, since This Old Tony made it illegal to sell them I have no chance.
New Zealands very own metal machining Channel , GREAT!
I had no idea what u we’re talking about in most of the vid, but I enjoyed it immensely. I’m very jealous of your tools and skills. Thanks.
A fantastic video showing the old way of doing things the mechanism you used is also very elegant in my opinion
This video is the definition of "where there is a will there is a way". Can't wait for version 2.0. Regards, Silas
Haha, cheers Silas
Loved the video! cutting gears the old-school way is super attractive to me. somehow it's very trendy nowadays to make everything super complicated and pretend as if it can't be done without thousands of dollars of precision equipment. but people did it back in the day using rudimentary tools and sometimes with better results than what some achieve using fancy tools.
@Pouyan : The more I watch modern machine tools perform digital magic, the more I am in awe of the craftsmen engineers of old!... how did they achieve those things?
You're a genius 😮
Hahaha. This is the least genius thing on UA-cam!
@@GeoffreyCrokerHi Geoffrey, Eric from Adelaide here. if you have a spare gear that is the same as you want to make, cut it into quarters and take one of the quarters and use it like you used the piece of aluminium . have it so it slides along and into the gear on the shaft. It will be more accurate. i am sure you can elaborate on this idea. good luck.
somewhere in another country i have an old book maybe from the 1960's "The Amatures Lathe" bt LH Sparey.. in that he shows how to cut gears using a milling attachment on the crossslide of a little old Myford lathe its a great old resource if you can find it anywhere !
Well done! - loved the video . . for the first time I understand how these gears are cut like that.
your suggested solution - is to use the index gear itself to with a rack-gear mounted on top of it - as the table to the left it rols the work piece - when you need to shift the tooth then it just shifts one gear notch up and repeat.
I don't care what you think... I'm watching it twice.
Cheers
A not shy Aussie here. You done good. Clever. Funny too. I like.
This is my favourite video of yours! Especially the ref to the handbook.
I love the video, I love all the great comments about how to improve on your design. me personally, I would have used the shaper as it was intended. grind/buy a gear cutter that you need. without a shadow graph it would be very hard to precisely match the grind needed. buying the proper cutter, mounting it to the spindle you made and taking .020 step downs from z until full depth is reached. then rotating manually to the next tooth and repeat. they actually make gear cutting heads that you can mount to your planer. they have a series of graduated dots and you turn a handle to get you exact rotation need for next tooth. anyways loved the video anyway, single point radius cutting on a rotation is pretty cool.
I probably don't have the best interpretation of gear cutting but...why not grind the tool to be the involute shape. Mount the blank on the indexer. Feed the shaper table up to a limit as the shaper cuts deep into the blank. I know this requires more accurate tool grinding but it eliminates the apparently error prone wire mechanism. It appears that you are trying to replicate how gears are hobbed (one tooth at a time) which would be more advanced than the first attempt of making gears on a shaper. For that matter, if this were being done for the first time where would the indexing gear come from?
great video thank you for taking the time to make it. if one has a dividing head can one use it for the rotation?
There are some clever guys out there and you sir are one of them.
Perseverance is the key. I was brought up on gear geometry back in the day, it wasn't easy to understand then and I'm pretty sure things haven't changed. ...ah .....the mysteries of the involute...😫😫
hey are you okay Geoffrey? you haven't uploaded for over 3 months now
Should be a batch coming in November.
@@GeoffreyCroker Waiting your videos much more than a new Vikings series! Thx!
Yeah this is one of the only channels I actually go check for an upload as I'm worried I missed one ha.
@@southyjd same! :)
I never know that such a simple cutting machine can do gear cutting like that ! It is really amazing ! Thanks for sharing and looking forward for your next upload !
Your sound design went from good to being awesome with this video. It brought a lot of joy in to my day.
Thank you!
Congratulations for your video, could you please say me in which issue of Model Engineer was the article about gear cutting with a shaper, thank you.
A rack and pinion with a set travel length and a lifter on the rack side can reliably replace the wire provided that a preload to one side is used to prevent backlash. The Lifter could also do the rotate after travel mechanism and the slow rotate mechanism using limit switches and a pair of small hydraulic cylinders connected with valves and a pump to alternating between aligning teeth and rotating mechanism while cutting.
Exactly how I expected my first gear cutting attempt to go! As I was watching you make the guide to fit into the gear teeth, I thought it might be a lot more accurate if your tool did not seat all the way into the teeth. You should cut an angle that is shallower than the depth, that way it will exactly find the midpoint every time. It might also be a good idea to load it with some spring tension.
A hilarious noir machining video. Well done!
Gittin trapped in the vice .... 🙄😂😂😂
UA-cam almighty algorithm sent me here for no reason, this is kinda not my thing to watch, but, somehow 10 minutes later i realized that time is gone, and i will never get it back... But i enjoyed it very muc, and the time i lost is not wasted for no reason. All the sounds and effects properly placed in the video and the ASMR of the workshop, machinery sounds along with wise words. Its just perfect.
The only question i have : How long it took to film and edit all this beauty.
Keep it up, never quit, take your time ;)
First video of yours I've watched, and I like it! The production values & editing are top-notch! You're like the Antipodean This Old Tony. I'm also a shaper owner.
OK, I'll admit, I haven't read all 289 (at the time of writing) comments. And I've only cut a few gears, and they didn't turn out that great either... so with that grain of salt.... Here are my meager suggestions:
a) Decide which is more important, the outcome or the exploration. If the outcome is what you want... it's vastly easier to create a gear hob on the lathe, and then make the gears using the hob in the lathe. It cuts all the teeth at once, and doesn't require high-precision indexing, only low-precision "gashing" which is just roughing cuts to get the hob started.
b) If the exploration of cutting gears on a shaper is more important, try these things:
1) If you have a gear with the correct number of teeth (diameter is irrelevant) get a rack that matches the the pressure angle angle and pitch. Use the gear rigidly attached to the indexer shaft, and the rack is stationary and rotates the indexer as the table moves. This eliminates the wire lash-up which is suspect on repeatability.
2) This is a heavier lift, but if you have the means to produce a multiple-toothed cutter for the shaper (you could, literally, split a hob down the middle... you'd just need to figure out how to hold it in the clapper box), that will both speed up the cutting and help make the tooth spacing more regular.
Interesting project. Replace the wire and wheel for a rack and pinion and I think you will have a greater chance for success. And perhaps integrate the dividing mechanism into the pinion as well. A simple way could be to have the axle running freely inside the pinion and have the corresponding dimples, depending on the division of the manufactured gear, drilled into it and a locking lug on the pinion to engage into said dimples. If you use the same pitch and module on the rack, pinion and gear to cut, I guess you could just step the pinion over for indexing.
That was the cleverest, most interesting, failure I ever watched for 17 and a half minutes. 👍😉
I got all giddy when i see you now was out, and then sad, knowing i need to wait on the the kids are sleeping, too enjoy it in the fullest, Well done!
how do do it the hard way
That was actually genius! :D
A sort of "Rack" cutter would work, too, so instead of one cutting tooth you have several side by each, and instead of moving the whole jig slowly from one side to the other, you raise it slowly up into the cutter. Then just drop it back down, index the gear round one tooth, and go again.
Nice work. I watch the whole video. Greetings from Akron, Ohio, USA
I have no recollection of watching this the first time, but I'm glad I watched it a second time.
Not only very informative, but I find your dry wit to be somewhat hilarious.
I doff me cap to you sir! Well done.
We missed you . Where are you ? Is everything ok ?
Whats happening with the Landy
First off, great video, very inspiring! Reading through the article a few times, I notice it says the tool should be made "to the form of a rack tooth", which makes sense since rack teeth have straight sides. According to the Machinery's Handbook, and if my math is right, that would make the tip width = (0.5 π - 2.5 tan φ) / P. (P = diametral pitch, φ = pressure angle). For instance, for a 24 pitch gear, the tip width would be 0.028". Can't wait to try it myself!
...and after finishing “this little problem” I would be excited to learn how to shape (generate) internal gears !
Not kidding...
Thanks for your interesting video.
Thanks. This inspired me to create my own contraption. A flattened and reduced version of yours.
Somewhat disappointed there's not a comment from @This Old Tony hiding in here somewhere, revealing the magic answer.
On a side note, the UA-cam algorithm recommended one of your videos based on God knows what. Delighted to have found this channel, as the presentation quality and humor are first-rate.
I have read the same article and thought about it. I believe the article mentions using "piano wire" to drive the rotation of the shaft holding the gear blank as it is being machined. You did not use piano wire. Piano wire will be a single wire that has a very high tensile strength, that is, it does not stretch. One other setup I have seen used a stout spring to load the wire. If one looks at a piano one sees wires that are wound with another wire; the core is the piano wire; the winding wire just weights the wire to tune the resonant vibration of the particular note.
Presumably the success of this method requires accuracy in the placement of the wire's center at the proper radius on the driven blank and "rigidity", that is to say, no slippage of the wire on the driven blank. Thus a rigid wire and taut constriction of the wire on the driven blank is required. Your effort was doomed to failure with your selection of the cable to drive the driven blank.I suspect a substitution of real piano wire, adequate loading of the wire tension and attention to the accurate diameter of the wire on the driven blank will give you a better if not an excellent result.If you really want to confuse yourself see if you can cut an accurate bevel gear on a shaper. There is a work around using a dividing head and offsetting the cutter to approximate a bevel gear. Apparently two such gears thus constructed will mesh well with each other. I believe that there is a method to cut a true involute bevel gear using a shaper but the rotation is controlled differently. I once found this method described in a patent application and believe it was used in a type of gear cutter.
Ya know I downloaded that exact article pdf YEARS AGO .... with great intentions of trying it on my Elliot 24" shaper but never got around to it... 🙄😂
Nice first try & as The Metal Butcher said, maybe u can use a rack instead of the wire... but NO BACKLASH allowed !!
That myford (ml7 ? ) is lookin clean, mine has been beaten into the ground over the last 40 years, kinda like meself 🤕
btw.... U said at the beginning that the involute ground tool would be specific to a particular tooth
number but commercial involute cutters (same profile as yours) are used for a range of tooth counts !
Subbed & liked my man !!
From the Emerald Isle 😎👍☘️
Edit...
Just peeped into yer archives & seen the lathe before u restored it !! I might have a go with me own now that you've inspired me.... beautiful job !! 🤗
Oooooow boy! That`s awesome! We may name it "колхоз", but thas is a true spirit of engineering!
Keep her steady!
What about using a rack and pinion instead of steel wire to roll your workpiece (and some spring to avoid backlash)? Great video, congrat.
Engineering classes, gear pair calcs. Final result for output gear:
43.7 teeth. Perfection!
Classic Engineering Entertainment! Brilliant as always Geoff!!
So Jimmy. What did you do over summer break?
Jim: Made gears.
That is nice.
Jim: On a Shaper.
*Surprised Pikachu Face*
Perhaps some research on the Maag gear shaper would help. This is a brilliant attempt at the method you have done. I work in the custom gears manufacturing industry. I'll be following along.
A few people have got in touch telling me about this guy JB from OZ - including the guy himself - never met a shy Aussie :) - who has a video of this same shaper method. I haven't watched the video properly yet, but it looks the goods. Check it out if you're interested. ua-cam.com/video/XNPXZgq7E4c/v-deo.html
Thanks heaps mate!! Gotta love a great shaper video
JB From Oz also has good taste in four wheeled contraptions originating in the UK
Thanks David! Referring to my Morris Minor Ute EV conversion? (E-Minor), the Daimler’s? Or the Austin Healeys? I do love my JCB Backhoe though, also could count! Glad you like them, plenty more content to come there too
i have nothing to add in tearms of gear cutting knowledge, but i must say i really like this project and your video of it!
Excellent engineering at its best, and sadly worst, looking forward to V 2.
Thanks for sharing and best regards from the UK.
excellent video. but what is that software for simulation you used.?
Yep you upped your game ... it was time for Patreon access. Everyone should have some for that extra big of Croker in their life!
Enjoying the videos and your shift from your traditional content!
Great video!
Yes, this is indeed the reason why there so often are at least one of those old shapers left in a corner of even the most modern metal workshops ;)
Unfortunatly i cannot realy help You but i think something that can lock a given position for each turn possibly would help...
Get an indexer for sure. as far as a simple way to do the linear to rotary motion, you may be able to use a tap in your lathe in combination with the milling attachment and a fixture to mount a gear blank to legitimately hob a gear of the same tooth count and pitch as your desired gear. Then simply use a piece of threaded rod as a rack, or make the rack on the shaper. another option is to just mechanically link the rotary movement with gears.
I would like to get some thoughts on how this might be done with a planer instead of a shaper.
Man, I really love your videos. I so wish you could make more of them.. Cheers :)
Did he die
Rack and the gear you're cutting to rotate on it. Spring loaded to disengage and index.
Page 332,427 is one of my favorite pages!
Uncanny ... When I was 11 page 3 of The Sun used to be mine.
@@mjallenuk Samantha Fox.... Mmmmm ! 😍😂😂
😎👍☘️
It's amazing -- that book didn't look more than 310,000 pages thick.
Sir , as always informative and expertly executed it is sometimes a bumpy road to success!!
Brilliant way to start a rainy English summers day here in the 🇬🇧
Regards
Robert
Partsmade
Oof that last tooth! But in all seriousness you could have "flat gear" meshed with your indexing gear. So you slide the plate through the bottom of the round gear in increments to set your cut.... I'm tired
Hi, I really liked your video. One help please, what software did you use to simulate the formation of the gear tooth?
Im at minute 3 and i Love you for this video ! You Are doing magic in my eyes. Great inspiration. Luckily i have a shaper !
This is good. Not heard of this channel before. Subscribed. I'm in the process of making a 40T gear on my Boxford 8" shaper using a H/V 6" Vertex Rotab. DOC will be the trickiest bit i reckon. Wish me luck.
That Viceroy looks like a modern squared off version of the old Royal / Alba / Elliot 10" shapers.
Regards, fellow shaper freak,
Use a gear rack instead of string. Attach it to the body of the shaper, use a gear on the table to drive it
I have to ask... Since the tip width is dependent on pitch diameter do you need a different cutter for each size gear?
It's been a while mate, nice to see you posting again.
Like all your videos, which I've watched a stalkerish number of times, this is brilliant. Thanks you
What program did you use to do that simulation on, great video
Dude, the intro was awesome!! Great video. Very informative. Thanks!
Hoping all is well, channel has been quiet and we're looking forward to another build video 👍
So will version 2 be posted soon?