Has Capitalism Killed the American Dream?
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2022
- Jacobin founding editor, Socialist Manifesto author, and former co-chair of the Democratic Socialists for America Bhaskar Sunkara squares off with Libertarian Nick Gillespie, editor at large of Reason and host of the podcast, The Reason Interview, to determine whether capitalism is the best economic system for the country, or are we in dire need of revamp. Michael Moynihan Moderates.
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Capitalism died with the phrase "too big to fail". The entire planet is an oligarchy with an enslaved workforce gaslit with shiny plastic things.
Chris, let's build an international communist society together without borders, property and classes.
@@houseplant1016 that sounds terrible.
People too often conflate capitalism with corporatism.
@@MRGoods89 Join us and I will give you a permanent seat in the main organisation
plastic i must admit is pretty awesome stuff its awesome for packaging things that could be packed in more environmentally betterer stuff but there cleaning up the pacific big garbage vortex which is kinda good we will have more room to dispose of more plastic, also plastic kayaks seem to be tasty, haha they will never clean up the garbage vortex pacific thingo, shh don't tell anyone ever day I throw a soda bottle and a zip lock bag and 4 trash bags full of random plastics i find all around in the river that goes right to the sea,, hahaha they will never clean it up if I continue at my daily pace..... well that was one of the stupidest comments I've typed since yesterday at least so I don't really, as for capitalism its all good except there are always people at the bottom who miss out, if they picked up that trail id be ok in my eyes
"The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it"-George Carlin
Man, Carlin was an absolute legend.
@@marcelo1458 I sadly come across his stand-ups long after his passing, but wow his material holds so much weight today. He was taken way too soon.
@@zlpatriot11 Same here, I discovered his intelligent comedy a few years back after seeing tons of his quotes online.
May God bless his soul!
@@marcelo1458 no, may joe pesci bless his soul
I like this quote 👌🏾
It’s too expensive to buy a house, too expensive to have kids, too expensive to go to college and too expensive for the middle class to buy politicians…. The American dream is definitely dead.
Yea y'all the same people who voted bidan in and said Mexican immigrants where good for USA well all this came and bite us in the ass!
Facts over feelings we killed the American dream! Trump said America first and y'all said he was racist! And now supposed the dream is dea
It’s to expensive because of socialism. If the world was capitalist, you wouldn’t see raises in taxes to pay for health care or benefits. Instead people would use that money to expand, hire more people, spend more money creating a bigger economy. Complain all you want but when you vote for someone who’s socialist and will raise your taxes, you can’t blame everyone else
@@bp2082 what are you even talking about? The United States is 100% a capitalist country to the core. I’m gonna guess you’re not from the US or dropped out in middle school.
@@bp2082 there is no way you're serious, america is capitalist not socialist alongside with other major developed countries. the reason socialists raise taxes is to not worry about healthcare costs because by our taxes it would be covered and other social programs even so universal free healthcare should be a human right.
@@Ian-pn1ff dawg you made a comment earlier you appeared to have deleted about me being a dropout or middle schooler. Explain to me what the video on your channel is. Wtf was that. Back to the real conversation, healthcare paid for by other people is not a human right. If you want health care, you can pay for it. America has way to many socialist aspects that people rope into capitalism
I was in favor of capitalism, untill I realized how easy it was to abuse the system, making millions and adding 0 value. People really think the 1% are those who made a "fantastic new discovery that people can't live without", nah man, those are the wealthy people. The 1% are those who have aggressively choked any competition that came their way, who have bought patents just to ensure the invention never saw the light of day because it threatened their business, who have made illegal price agreements with their "competitors", who have done insider trading etc. etc. That's the 1% you're defending. People always confuse the wealthy with the 1%.
Capitalism isn't useless but it is madness to base your entire economic system on the hunger games.
1% is rich .
@@Gnashercide exactly I guess he doesn’t see the parallel.
I think that what you're noting are the manipulations of capitalism and more a reflection on the lack of regulation that could restrain the psycho expansion of the 1%. Markets are being manipulated so that customers aren't informed or having choices. The big dogs are simply joining and lying, and thus pushing out the competition.
And in Communism/Socialism (whatever you want to call it) the 1% are the party elite, still ultra rich and above everyone else. and it becomes the ultimate 100% MONOPOLY.
Everyone else is poor and without freedom.
All systems get abused.
*We need money out of politics. A government that works with lobbies and big money isn't a government that works for it's people*
Will NEVER HAPPEN under a capitalist doctrine. Those who hold capital in a capitalistic society get to say how s*its done, doesnt matter how you and i feel about it. God, the fact that i have to explain this on the internet makes my stomach turn... most people are literal babies when it comes to politics🙄
^^^before anything else can have even a chance at functioning, THIS.
Bingo!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
TERM LIMITS! Convention of the states, look it up
Instead of buying homes and having families, we're spending most of our income on rent and struggling to buy food all while the CEOs of the companies we work for getting 50 million dollar benefit packages, but that doesn't raise prices. Apparently, prices only raise when workers get enough money to eat and afford rent.
The American dream is built on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Capitalism does not offer that for the common man.
The American dream...my balls.
Research inflation please. It is always a fiat currency phenomenon due to bad policy. The common man is often misinformed
No, if you have an idea or a product that people can't live with out you can make insane money that's why the 1% list is always changing. the populations is way to big for every one to make money like before more people have degrees so jobs no longer need to please you they fire you and replace you before you leave the building, finally the reason if every one makes good money prices go up is for the simple fact of supply and demand our resources are limited so if every one can get it the supply can't meet the demand.
Capitalism has done more to offer the common man the most comfortable existence in human history. You want to complain about costs the real problem is big government not free markets
I mean, maybe for you. I'm killin it over here.
I love how, out of 7 billion people, some imagine there is only one Jeff Bezos instead of acknowledging many entrepreneurs would have come up with the same idea but first to market and funding to push out others lead to the stagnation creating an image that Jeff Bezos is the best. We could have so much better but our market is anticompetitive.
for such a smart and otherwise reasonable sounding guy, I was quite surprised by the libertarian dude's Amazon praise
Capitalism loves and rewards monopolies.
I brought up the concept of facebook in front of my university's senate while facebook was just that, a book (it was a popular thing in harvard)
they thought i wanted to make a dating website and it wasn't secure and didn't fund it =/
next year mark had access to all my school classes and various others in the area, womp
To actually put this into perspective Amazon had two things that made it as a company and neither had anything to do with its mission statement nor what it provides to the market (and Tesla has a very similar story with lithium ion batteries getting cheaper and government incentive programs.) Amazon was just at the right time for the computerization of inventory systems in the mid-1990s exactly when Amazon was founded. It was never true that the warehouses were a bunch of robots replacing workers. The key here is in understanding the greater trends of inventory management toward continuous inventory models over stock inventory that had been pioneered at car manufacturers. This meant inventory was just in time and predictive. This is what got amazons foot in the door but what made them ascent to the top was innovative tax evasion and it should come as no surprise then that when Jeff Bazos started selling his Amazon stock was right after states declared nexus of business laws on Amazon and made them pay taxes.
It’s actually 8 billion now lol
We seem to have forgotten that the clearest, most damaging enemy of capitalism is monopoly or near monopoly. So much of our economy isn’t driven by free market capitalism at all.
Monopoly is the inevitable result of free market capitalism though...
capitalism competition lead to monopoly because the several greatest and biggest company will win over all other small weak company. this is free market. greatest company monopoly☺️
that is the endgame of unregulated capitalism.
@@dominicgunderson my thoughts exactly. It takes decades and there is a golden age in the middle but the end result, especially with technology and automation, is consolidation of companies through acquisitions, and that lowers wages cuz less conpetetition, prices are fixed. And these are “success” stories. Price gouging is capitalism and it’s frowned on but that’s a “free market”
The whole economic market is capitalized. Like c'mon everyone knows it but turns a blind eye .
Grew up in the 90s so seeing my dad do blue collar work and comfortably support a family of 6 made me feel fine about not going to college. I now do arguably more niche and demanding work, and can barely support myself and 1 child.
I grew up on the 70's, got a city job. Retired earning more money than my friends with Master's were earning.
Would it make a financial difference if 2 people are working. Both dad and mom?
As a tradesmen I do earn more than all my friends that went to university.
But couldn't buy a house in England .
I agree. Growing up in the 90s made life seem simple. Get a job, find a girl, get a house/apartment, ect. Now it's harder.
Yes, times have changed. Globalization and an emphasis on technology/automation have taken away many jobs and especially trades in the pursuit of corporate profits/greed and lower cost to the consumer. This means that those once plentiful jobs that were in local manufacturing and the many other jobs that existed locally have been replaced mainly by machines or overseas cheap labor and are mostly gone. All of that along with worker wages stagnating and not keeping up with inflation equals out to jobs generally requiring more specialization/education and people in general earning less money, while cost of living/goods goes up due to inflation steadily increasing year after year. Things absolutely need to change because those problems are only going to get worse if they don't.
The answer is yes. We are no longer citizens, we are consumers.
Absolutely right.
Our sensory perception must be fed at all times by the silliest of stimulatants. We exist in a place were obtaining certain products and items become lifetime goals. "I wish to own a home one day". All the mindless effort it takes to obtain a home. For what? No real human progress. We are living in the time of the hamster wheel. I'm super stupified by this.
More like modern slaves or subjects
The United Corporation of America. 🤮
You choose to be a mindless consumer.
Nobody these days understand budgeting, self control and priorities.
I'm 40 this year and all I see are people looking at phones all day and waiting in line to buy something.
Debt, greed, ignorance and selfishness are ruining the world. And we choose it.
"It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." The man, the myth, the legend, George Carlin.
This really convinces me that a multi (no less than 3)-party coalition government with open primaries and ranked choice voting would really do so much for our country. These guys don't disagree on a number of really interesting ideas and yet they are on opposite poles of the spectrum. Without partisan polarization some really interesting ideas might get traction in the legislature.
Elimination of all political parties would be a very good start. The founding fathers warned about the dangers of factions aka political parties!
Totally agree. The only way I see to break up the current blockages is to introduce anti-lobbyist and term limit laws which neither of the two parties would support.
@@mgiraudjr yes, start off with those ideas and clear out the senate and house or reps. And that will allow the real progress to new modern ideas being stone walled by Both current parties. Outlaw gerrymandering and make ethics and morals a thing you need to atleast pretend you have atleast sheesh
There is no chance of that happening because all 3 branches of our government are 100% corrupt.
Mankind deserves extinction & will get what it deserves.
Im 43, worked since I was 15. All my life I've lived paycheck to paychceck. A small savings , just in case, and a 401k. That's it. I will never be able to afford a house. Single family zoning has killed housing opportunities for people like me. Rent goes up 200 dollars a month in one year but my wage goes up .25 cents. What kind of sense does that make?
I will always be poor, I know this. I've accepted this and just do what I need to get by and live comfortably. That's all some of us can do. Make the best of it, and live life with a smile. Be grateful for what I do have and try not to complain. There are others worse off than me.
We are selfish creatures, and as long as we are , no result will be anything other than self centered. Just my opinion.
@Phuck UA-cam censorship this is a lie
Sadly the goal for everyone: by the government
so what Bhaskar is trying to tell you is that in societies with strong social programs, people like you can take risks to overcome your position without fear of having no healthcare and retirement savings. You can use the skills you have acquired in 28 years of work to start a business. In America, you bend the knee because the risk is too great as a poor person (just like they want you too) - in a socially oriented society, your entrepreneurship is encouraged, and failure is understood - your human rights to dignity, security and health are generally protected. After all, Canada, Norway and Sweden all engage in capitalist competition in many ways - from oil markets, to tech and fashion - but have strong protections to make sure people willing to innovate have the resources and social security necessary.
Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg will all die, as will you, and I.
How easy do you think it will be for them to come to terms with the fact that, with all their billions, they cannot stave off the inevitable?
I'm in a similar situation to yours, a handful of years behind you in age. Roughly the same story though. I started working when I was 12, tried to make good financial decisions whenever possible... I've come to accept that I will always be part of the "working poor".
Like you said, it doesn't mean that I can't have an enjoyable life, to some degree... but it has been a hard reality to come to terms with.
Yep we are all broke working full time and can’t afford to buy homes. Way to go American Dream.
Too broke broke to buy a home, yet, not broke enough to receive gov't assistance.
That good ol sweetspot.
@@SteadilyGrinding lmao, that’s what makes it so convenient for the Government. Just enough for them to get their tax money
The American dream was never real, at least not for all americans
@@SteadilyGrinding I temporarily signed up for Obamacare last year and ironically I was *too poor* to get a tax credit. Seriously. The range was like $12,000 - $30,000 income for the credit but I made like $11,500.
Thankfully I called them and they said you're allowed to "estimate" your income higher (but not lower ofc). But yeah, there was a long pause on the phone when I told the clerk "So you're telling me I have to pay MORE because I make LESS?" What kinda backwards logic...
Ive always been amazed while driving and looking like "how do people make enough to have a home. Its crazy
In Belgium; we were promised lower prices for internet, telephone, energy, postage etc. if only the market just would be liberalized. That happened, but the promised competition just didn't work, prices didn't decrease, probably because these companies are doing price fixing among themselves. It worked for supermarkets though: the arrival of cheap, cheaper, cheapest supermarkets for a moment led to a decrease in prices in the more expensive chains. But than, these chains had enough of lowering their prices, and decided to refocus on A brands and a public with more money. But now, everyone can decide for him- or herself if he or she wants to buy in the more expensive shops with possibly (!) better quality or in the cheaper ones (with sometimes crappy products or exactly the same ones as in the expensive shops, but with a different name: the more expensive Leo cookies becoming Olé in the less expensive shops etc.
But liberalizing a market not AUTOMATICALLY leads to lower prices. It doesn't always work this way.
I'm Australian and few months back on a thread about power prices in various countries a Romanian guy jumped in and told EVERYONE to go FK themselves because a pack of people from other countries had gone to Romania told them to sell their power stations because competition provides for better services and cheaper prices to consumers. My reply to him as an Australian was to ask if he was describing Romania or Australia in the 1990s when the same thing happened.
This BS narrative/trope of privatisation and globalization that came out of America on the back of Reaganomics during the Clinton years has been told everywhere with THE SAME REULTS EVERYWHERE.
Right now in Australia we are in the middle of an energy crisis. Our electricity is going up which is bad but that's nothing. *Despite being the worlds largest exporter of natural gas we have a gas shortage.* We subsidised various companies (over $10 billion) to develop our natural gas resources for export. These companies pay almost NO TAX or royalties because the system set up for them is so lax you can literally drive ships through the holes.
Before much longer America and the insanity of neo-liberal economics and libertarian politics is going to be told by the rest of humanity to FK-OFF. The tragedy is most Americans aren't bad people and they're also getting screwed. I know because I went to college there. They really are decent people. Its just that America's political/corporate machine is utterly corrupt.
Self-sufficiency, slow food, community supported agriculture could/would increase the nutritional value while adding to the local community.
I don't believe I have a future in this system. I'll struggle to buy anything,retirement doesn't exist,all the jobs are garbage even with a degree,money has inflated and the rich just get to walk on all of us with no consequences and flaunt their power in our faces. If nothing changes then I see no reason to be on this planet anymore
Bruh just start investing in stocks at an early age. Like rn stocks are low as fucc bruh, invest $200 a month, and as you earn more, invest more. Broke ppl pay bills, buy materialistic and invest what’s rest. Rich people pay bills (minimized as much as possible), invest a “x” percentage, and THEN spend what’s left, investing is a bill. Don’t hate the rich, follow there steps. Play there game. If you start now, buy Facebook, PayPal, square and Microsoft, and in ten years you will have a decent amount. Put that down payment on a duplexe. Rent out one side to pay for mortgage and live in the other side. Like you can do it, you just have to lower your monthly expenses, and as you earn more through time, INVEST more don’t spend more. Hope this helps bruh
@@32kirby32 poor people cant actually trade real stocks. You need a broker and apps like Robin hood don't let you trade freely since it goes into black pools. Besides we know the "free market" ain't free after the whole gamestop debacle.
@@joenathan8059 trading is for experts and not a long term investment method for normal people. I’m referring to dollar cost averaging. Where you don’t spend all your money at one time (which is higher risk) instead spread purchases over a regular bi weekly or monthly basis. So when prices go down you can buy say 200$ worth that month, and if there higher only invest 100$ a month for those months. If another stock dips buy the lower prices stock that month. So your buying more stock when it at better prices , and it’ avoids buying all at once and it goes down and your screwed. Over a long period of time it’s lower risk and if you buy a stock like Facebook, visa, PayPal, apple, Microsoft, amd/Nvidia, Disney, and more high growth stocks like Etsy or Pinterest. Besides the last two these are Profitable companies that stock goes up every 5 or 10 years a lot more than an index fund or if someone else managed your money. You have to hold for long time tbo, 10-15 years is best. And if you don’t have a lot of cash to start it’s fine, just be constant every paycheck. It’s like your own 401k and never invest money you need within 12 months. I’m telling you if you decide to do tbis you can. Best advice I have and I do it personally. Right now is the BEST time to buy too imo, I’m ready to put in a large amount myself. Wish the best
@@joenathan8059 all you need is a brokerage like e trade with a free account and no buy or selling fees anymore. You fund it with your bank account and have a debt card to withdraw. All free
Cost of living has rose above most people. Extra money is becoming non-existent after shelter, bills, food, fuel.
@@robme3660 Maybe take an actual critical look at problems instead of regurgitation easy sound bite keywords.
@@robme3660 Nothing to do with this 🙄
@@robme3660 that doesn't explain why everything started getting more expensive 1.25 years into Trump's presidency, about the exact amount of time it took for his joke econ policies to take affect....................
@@robme3660 You got some Cheeto dust on your lips.
@@robme3660 we would have voted for a lump of broccoli if we thought it would get Trump out. It is much better, after Trump broke things so badly. Things were on this trajectory since kids in cages.
Working hard and living an honest life is a gauranteed method of failure in unfettered capitalism.
Perfect
Proof
You are describing the lives of working-class Chinese migrants living in Hong Kong, where unfettered capitalism and an unregulated real estate market has inflated rental prices to grotesquely high levels, including forcing the poor to pay more $ per sq. footage for a slum unit compared to a luxury condo.
@@breink5306 hey, i think you spelled California wrong lolol *joking
@@gimmeallthebingbong 😃 I can't find my initial message
Just like my father said "your health is your wealth". Your health is more important than being rich.
Ayy, that's an Irish saying! Slauncha to pops.
Capitalism as we know it is based on constant growth which means ever increasing use of resources. In a world where most resources are finite, the current model of capitalism is simply unsustainble. We have to find a system that can allow the lives of people to improve without killing the golden goose, Earth.
In an absolute sense, resources are finite. However, innovation has enabled people to acquire and use resources at increasing rates for millennia. In the last few centuries, people have become much wealthier because of capitalism and poverty has fallen as the world has become more populated. It is essential that people become wealthy enough to care about the physical environment, which is what allows them to preserve it. The system that allowed you to comment on this video also enables sustainability.
@@JonathanRossRogers capitalism is failing, and humanity is running out of gas, figuratively and perhaps literally, to keep it afloat. If this pace continues at this rate, world war 3 will end us all within the next decade.
@@we8608 Predictions of doom are very common throughout human history. If yours gives your life meaning, it's impossible to argue against it. I hope you can escape before you decide to harm yourself or others.
When a family brining in over 100k a year can't afford to buy a house in the area they work... Then yes, it is.
Why do you need to buy a house? Just rent, or move if you want a house that badly.
i make $100K, have no debt, have no family to support and still can't afford a house where I work. We are in the late stages of capitalism
@@dachicagoan8185 where do you live?
Amen An going through this right now living in New York
@@dachicagoan8185 how much is your rent?
I'm 26 years old, born 1996. I had beliefs in the American dream but the 2008 recession & everything following has killed it. It's hard to believe it when everything you're raised on falls apart.
MUCH AGREED!!! I FEEL THE SAME WAY AND AM 20 YEARS OLDER-1975!!
Born in '76, same conclusion. Although not likely at this point, the world can get better from human involvement.
@@melioristicone333 Then how this guy can buy 1000 units???? ua-cam.com/video/WYlZGiw5QY8/v-deo.html
Change your mind
Everything you've been raised on has fallen apart? For real, do you somewhat know how to manage money? Are you able to move forward? Then I highly doubt faith has fallen apart. You thinking about the situation is something you've been raised on I'm sure of it and what are you doing right now? Thinking of it. Now do something with those thoughts. That's the American Dream that's where the truth lies.
@@bolas003 the world doesn't need people like me going full narcissist. Which is my considered alternative that I keep suppressed. I did say it wasn't likely, I just said it was possible the world could get better with human involvement.
I look at it this way. Everything we have comes from (1) resources such as land, animals, trees, water, fish, minerals, sunlight, etc. that was here when Columbus came over and belong to everyone - including the Native Americans that were already here. (2) Science and technology that everybody contributed to, and also belong to everyone. (3) Roads, bridges, money, a legal system, national defense, and many other things done by government that are absolutely essential for the creation of wealth, at least to any substantial degree, and also belong to everyone. (4) Human labor.
As time goes by, it takes less and less human labor to produce the same amounts of goods and services. Therefore, two things should be happening over time: (1) Hourly wages in real terms should be rising and (2) Income and wealth inequality should be decreasing because a larger and larger percentage of what we have come from resources that belong to everyone.
Not only are those two things not happening, but both of them are also going in reverse. Something is very, VERY wrong here.
If you are a billionaire you can buy a lot of propaganda. If you are just an isolated dude on Facebook your opinion doesn't matter.
For all of capitalism' faults, we tend to forget that Norway, Sweden, Germany... Canada! those are capitalist countries too. It's not capitalism, it's american capitalism, it's just not fair anymore. It's become more and more one sided since Reagan
It’s horrible for most. But amazing for the 1%
The 1% is the smallest minority in this country and you don't hear them complaining.
@yourmanwatson and power
@@al1665 To those who are scamming, squatting peoples' houses, stealing, robbing, having a lot of kids, or demanding government handouts and getting rid of college debt... work! I'm 18 and worked my way up to Starbucks manager making $19.15 in N. Dakota, but some gets deducted because of Social Security which is unfair because there are a lot of people faking their disabilities like some of the people in My 600 Pound Life, and I'm hoping to one day take over Starbucks HQ and its 16K US locations and pay a minimum wage of $25 to all of the baristas because I was one too but it likely won't happen until I'm in my 50s. You don't see me as the next Angel Brown who has 17 children and demanded money from the government, living in someone else's house, breaking store windows in broad daylight to steal jewelry, assaulting and robbing the innocent, or demanding free money.
If you're young, really think about what you want to do in life. Will going to university pay off in the long run? Is paying every month for who knows how long for your $35K Doctorate degree in feminism really worth it? Or is learning a skillful trade and becoming the next April Wilkerson or the next Cam from Blacktail Studio worth more?
@@al1665 Are they paying you to lick their nuts.
It’s amazing for the majority of people.
Because of GQP policies like trickle down economy that has make America work for the rich and work against the poor.
Because of Citizen United which meant the country is now ruled by the rich to make sure America works for the rich.
Because of the privatization and attempted privatization of essential services. Should student loads and prisons be privatized? Should healthcare provider make so much money that it puts people under the bridge on one hand and CEO's buying their 3rd yacht on the other hand? Should USPS be privatized like GQP wanted for so long? Should all public schools be privatized?
Rich people uses the banner of religion to make you think they are on your side. They want to privatize everything so they can keep the good stuff to themselves. They don't want to see your poor ass be provided with anything good. Not school. Not healthcare. Not even public parks. And they vote/influence the policy makers to make sure nothing public is good.
Havent watched it only read the title so far. The answer is yes.
“The American Dream” has always been about the prospect of success, but 100 years ago, the phrase meant the opposite of what it does now. The original “American Dream” was not a dream of individual wealth; it was a dream of equality, justice and democracy for the nation. The phrase was repurposed by each generation, until the Cold War, when it became an argument for a consumer capitalist version of democracy. Our ideas about the “American Dream” froze in the 1950s. Today, it doesn’t occur to anybody that it could mean anything else.
Edit: *For white people* lol
No, it never meant democracy. It always was about a republic and equal opportunity, not equal outcome. The policies of equal outcome have created crannies capitalism in urban centres. If anyone is to blame, it's you and your family in libtard america.
You need to be Billionair for living the actual américan dream
I can see where you're coming from but even back then the American dream was still an American dream for specific powerful/well to do few. Before the cold war we had slave labor from blacks and Asian people, Irish folk who were treated like trash, and the gross misplacement and treatment towards natives of the land.
We like to act like the American dream was always available for everyone, but sadly it's not. And when those marginalized groups were able to reach that dream and make their stance in those old times, sometimes they would end up cutting them down by using loopholes to take that from them or straight up murder and lynching.
I’m not sure it was ever about collective prosperity. We wouldn’t have had Jim Crow segregation or the myriad other codified forms of exclusion if it was. People didn’t immigrate to the US to be a part of a community, they did it so that their families could make money and own property.
@@pouletsept5099 Exactly. The American dream almost only ever existed for white men who bought land.
That’s why they made the laws saying only *they* could vote for politicians.
the choice between wage slavery and starvation isn't "freedom" or "Democratic" it is violence. capitalism is violence and preventing people from their basic needs is violence. your average person is closer to a jail cell than a promotion. many colors, one working class!
Ohh this is good
That was kind of deep my friend....too much truth to it...
We’re all slaves to those who became successful before us.
truth
Only those of us who have lived this know it to be true. Cuz it is the ugly truth.
This is a fantastic model for a discussion. Both speakers are eloquent but entertaining and speak to their points clearly and civily. It's rare to see such an enlightened and informed discussion, though I wish we could have heard a longer discussion on the issue of housing, both seemed to have strong opinions that got cut a bit short whether in the edit or due to time constraints. I have to say I agree with each on a few issues, especially the sort of thesis statements of their beliefs. Government has become bloated and inefficient in many areas and so much of what's spent doesn't come back to supporting those who need government support or even general welfare. I also greatly support the closing point that people find meaning in work, it's such an undervalued concept but I think a lot of jobs don't seek to provide meaning or value for employees, which I see as a pretty big missed opportunity. The assembly line was a revolution to be sure, but few people find meaning butchering chicken en-masse for 40 hours a week at a Tyson plant.
Short answer: yes. It had ruined everything for people who are not rich.
Corporate greed is killing America. Look at gas prices…While Americans pay on average ~ $5/gallon on gas, big oil companies like Exxon Mobil and Chevron have doubled and quadrupled their profits.
Corporations are now competing with the average consumer on houses. How am I suppose to buy a house when I am competing for the same house against Zillow?
It’s insane what this country has allowed these corporations to do. They make money from their people’s suffering.
Try competing against Wells Fargo for a house hahaha
It's funny how many hurdles a small business needs to go through. No wonder there's so much restaurant and retail chains that seem to suck out any of the necessary risk that would allow the market to flourish, although I'm a socdem.
You realize they lost over triple those amounts over the pandemic?
Furthermore, the US government gave oil corporations generous subsidies to encourage them to invest this into new oil infrastructure to ramp up production to keep up with the growing demand.
So what did they do? They used those subsidies to pay out dividends among their shareholders, investing close to nothing into new infrastructure! They purposefully wanted to raise the gas prices to compensate for the crash in 2020 - thus prioritizing short-term profits.
Corporations do everything in their power to dodge taxes and screw over the government that helps them, but as soon as crisis hits, they are the first that come running back begging the government to bail them out.
In other words: socialized losses, privatised gains.
Even the greatest writer on capitalism, Adam Smith, in "Wealth of Nations" said that capitalism without regulation and control by the government is doomed to fail. Absolute free capitalism is almost where America is at now, thanks to Reaganomics. All of the great work done by America's greatest president of all time, Franklin D. Roosevelt (A socialist at heart who believed all people are entitled to good jobs, health care, education, etc.) has
been effectively undone by the wealthy, who have been fighting to undo his policies for many years.
Agree. Many health care plans have caveats that you have a $6,000 out of pocket per year before they pay 100%
Seriously? We're one of the most heavily regulated economies in the world... it's certainly not a "free market".
@@rogerwood5228 Like what? Other 1st world countries are much more regulated. Worker protection, mandatory vacation and sick days and maternity leave, price control on drugs, etc. The US has none of that.
@@austinhernandez2716 seriously? Take the next few days and read up on all the federal regulations that are out there for numerous industries, and when you've had enough, now start looking at state level regulations.... gtfoh if you think the US isn't heavily government regulated. You're just moaning you're not getting your socialist goodies that other people would have to pay for.
@@austinhernandez2716 those are not regulations? Are you literate?
VICE News makes videos on random topics so interesting .... Appreciate the hard work 🙏🏾 👍
He’s right about Tokyo. Up until Covid, Tokyo’s population was increasing, and yet rent prices have been stable and cheap. I know plenty of people who have their own small studio apartment right in the middle of the city for like 600 a month. That is simply unimaginable in any comparable US city like LA or NYC. It all comes down to supply and demand.
Nice, which area (-ku) are we talking?
Na bruh, it’s cuz all new houses are high end. Which boosts rent prices on even lower end houses. They lower end raise rent prices cuz they can. Demand can be the same but if everyone fixes prices higher, like is happenin everywhere, that’s to me unethical at a point. I get it it’s an investment, of course. And there is a housing shortage, true, but if there is more Affordable housing I don’t think there would be a shortage as bad. All new houses are targeted to maximize profit by large investment companies, not people interested on making affordable housing. Soemthing needs to give, idk if local regulation is the answer but this free market capitalism is causing lots of homelessness unnecessary and eventually these high prices could pop like a bubble when no one can afford to live there cuz local economy doesn’t support it. So no renters in the the apartments and more homeless on the streets. It’s crazy
@@32kirby32
"The lower end raise rent prices cuz they can. Demand can be the same but if everyone fixes prices higher"
The reason they can raise prices is precisely because of the increased demand relative to supply. If 100 people are competing to rent your place, and people are willing to pay more to get it, of course you will raise rent. If I snap my fingers and 10x the number of units in a city, guess what? Now the opposite is true. landlords have to compete to find renters by lowering rent prices.
And the reason developers only build high end units is precisely because of regulation and not the free market. Plenty of developers want to build smaller affordable units, but it is literally illegal. parking minimums, minimum site area, height limits, minimum apartment size, and exclusive zoning regulations make it completely illegal to build affordable units. This video summarizes this problem: ua-cam.com/video/0Flsg_mzG-M/v-deo.html
Here is a video that chronicles the massive effort that a small developer had to go through just to build an apartment building in san francisco: ua-cam.com/video/ExgxwKnH8y4/v-deo.html
Tokyo is a great example of less government regulation and letting the free market meet demand which keeps prices low. You say capitalism is the problem but the exact opposite is true.
It seems more like "American Dream" has always been a game where a few people win and many people lose. With the exception of a few decades after WW2, when the US was "ahead" of other developed countries just because the other countries were destroyed by war.
You're right. Nobody wants to come to the US any more. Why would they when we Americans are behind?
It’s a tickets of countless bets and few got to the top and the rests didn’t
I love when Americans think they’re the best thing God ever created compared to other countries Poor countries
But in reality other countries didn’t do the atrocities Americans did to become a “rich economy”, america wasn’t a miracle but a consequence of power.
@@19ars92 Why do you think so many people to move to Europe?
@@JonathanRossRogers
Europeans are the largest group of humans that have moved the most out of their ethnic region in modern history
Asia, Africa, Oceania, and America have such a large populations of European ancestry
The question is why native europeans have voluntarily moved so much out of Europe to different continents around the world?
It's a chicken or the egg problem. Corporatists have lined politicians' pockets with insane amounts of lobbying money, and politicians have sold us out, having no backbone to uphold serving for the public's well-being and interest.
repeal citizen's united
This is called Crony Capitalism/Cronyism.
@@jherc12990 JJ N is entirely correct - you are not.
It is just Cronyism...not unique to capitalism. In fact, Democrats and the left are deeper in bed with filthy corporations and the mega rich than Republicans are. Could you honestly dispute that?
@@jherc12990 Yeah exactly. That poster should have just said capitalism lol.
@@jherc12990 Omfg no, it's called capitalism. There's no such thing as "crony". That's just a no true Scotsman fallacy
One more thing, the free market is powerful. In my country, Bolivia, there is no Amazon or Bezos, but all the small business put in place very convenient home delivery services from food, medicines to every need, it was just split among many suppliers, yes, it was same day or 2 hours delivery. I think this happened in many Latin American countries and new business emerged. Even the financial system adapted to allow for this small and fast transactions between many suppliers and many consumers.
Thank you for your perspective.
I agree - the free market is amazing. The profit motive from fulfilling other people's needs is incredibly powerful and something unpredictable!
The problem is when corporate interests and common folk see housing as a means to get rich. This mentality drives housing past 50% of ones income which is causing social decay. Flipping houses and landlord-ship doesn’t bring any innovation or value to society this is one area if we solve on how to make it affordable we as society would thrive. Unfortunately this would take public policy of driving greed out of housing market.
People can't pull themselves up when all we have are boots and no straps.
Are you aware of the origin of the saying "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" ?
Y'all got boots?
Writing this on your I phone?
@@tomk7216 because America is the only country with mobile phones great argument pack it up guys this tom just destroyed your entire argument doesn't matter what problem we have if your not literally a starving African child it doesn't matter and your being selfish great observation tom.
Up until about 1980, it meant that people could get married, have children, buy a decent house and car, and one person's income would be enough to support all this, while the other person was able to care for the children and the home. The second person could work but didn't have to. They had things like life and health insurance. Jobs were protected by unions. While life wasn't perfect, it wasn't shitty.
Today, what it really means is that with two people working at crappy wages, they might be able to afford to rent a halfway decent house. They cannot afford insurance and rely on emergency rooms and Medicare for what little medical care they get. They cannot buy a house. If they have children, they go to shitty public schools. Life insurance is off the table, and college is unaffordable for anyone in the family. Employment is "at will" and unions are dead. Upward mobility is a bitter joke when people are living from paycheck to paycheck.
However, the really good news is that the reduction in living standards for the vast majority of people allows scumbags like Larry Ellis and the Koch brothers to get even richer. You would think they believe they can take it with them.
You can thank Ronald Reagan and all your politically conservative friends for this wonderful state of affairs.
Had me right up to the end. It's not a right vs. left issue; that's just how all-encompassing the corruption is
What you forget in your analysis is that the level of consumption increased A LOT between the 1980s and 2022. The problem is thus not "capitalism", but the fact that the overconsumption of cheap imported goods led to the creation of massive corporations that control everything.
If everyone consumed less and encouraged smaller local businesses instead of Amazon and Walmart, everything would be way better.
Also, as for the price of single-family homes, you don't seem to understand the reality of the world we live in. In 1980, there were 227 million Americans. In 2022, 337 million Americans (a 105 million increase). As space is limited, you can't keep building single-family homes for everyone, hence why the price of a house increased (and why urban sprawl destroyed all natural places left and cause massive trafic jams every day...)
Yeah 1970 was like peak America then then 80s hit and it all went down hill seem like 😩
@@jasperjazz4467 you’re mistaken, it is a right vs. left issue. We don’t blame Republican voters necessarily, just Republican politicians. Republican policies deregulate business and let the free market run more rampant. I’m sorry to tell you, but Republican Party has always been the party of big business. Look at whose taxes the republicans are always trying to cut compared to whose taxes the democrats are trying to raise. The top % of income earners.
actually jimmy Carter was running this country into the ground inflation out of control and it was becoming worse as the 70s were ending that's why Reagan was elected even ford was part of the stagnation.
This is amazing. Thanks for producing
Bhuskar so genuine and informed, he did a great job. I got the impression that they cut out a lot of what he had to say though.
My grandfather was one of the supposed 8% who made it from rags to riches. Seems like it’s getting harder and harder to accomplish these days. Cost of living keeps going up, and wages don’t follow suit.
I am 34 years old, spent all my money in my 20s on rent. Sustainable housing, 3D printed housing, remote working in low income areas, all these things could change america. Myself and a ton of people my age would love to live in the middle of nowhere with cheap 3D printed houses and work our remote jobs. That is the dream.
Me and a buddy of mine are trying to work on this but we ain't got the capital to fund it unfortunately
@@robertn.4329 and you never will have the assets to secure the amount of money for a loan. Maybe we can all ask our rich parents.
Make it happen. Be the change you want to see. Grass roots movement need to hear your ideas, i think you could influence ppl cuz you right 💯
Yes! sustainable living: hemp-crete, strw-bale houses, permaculture agriculture, slow food, Herbalism - all thee thing are the goal to which many Americans are fleeing. There are collectives of young (younger then I am at 60) people fleeing to Mexico to create such communities. Mexico is going to close it's border to Americans for this reason (do you know you can't actually OWN land in Mexico unless you are a National? Not a legal immigrant who has a Mexican passport - but a Mexican born in Mexico). The Right complains about immigrants to America - while young Americans are fleeing to Mexico: both see the hand writing on the wall...
Unions are a shadow of what they used to be. My step father was with the teamsters his entire career with UPS. When he retired, the teamsters slashed his pension by 25% and the guys in the Midwest lost their pensions entirely. Recently, the guys in the Midwest did receive their pensions due to congress actually doing something however my step father was scheduled to have his 25% loss reinstated but the teamsters are again dragging their feet and the future is uncertain as to whether or not that will happen. The only good unions right now are public sector unions.
Everything is about about mf money. It’s just different and very unsettling to say the least. They want it to be the have and have nots. It’s suffering all over this country.
Its killing the entire planet let alone your dreams.
“The planet will be fine. It’s the humans who are fucked”
- George Carlin
This was unexpectedly complex and fascinating. Way to go finding representatives of each ideological camp who weren’t afraid to have a productive conversation. Great moderation, too.
Thanks for putting this out!
for real, this was unexpectedly great.
I disagree. Each addressed issues in somewhat abstract and circumscribed way. Neither unbridled capitalism, or unbridled Socialism work. Current Republican “populism” is really nationalism + authoritarianism. In the EU gov. reins in excess capitalism in America excess capitalism reins and our gov. We, the people, are getting screwed.
This was great. A congenial debate with a light hearted tone but retaining the incisive spirit of inquiry which lies at the core of public discourse. A little rough, but I think if this model is pursued it will become more refined with time. Looked like a solid turn out too. Wish I could have been there.
Yes. Chile figured that out Privatizing water was the Neoliberal's wet dream and clearly is in the crosshairs, here in the US. I hope the new Chilean Constitution can correct that debacle.
I'm sorry Vice but this isn't a debate about capitalism vs socialism, this is a debate between laissez-faire capitalism and social democratic capitalism. At no point was there any mention of worker control of the means of production and self-management. Just a debate over which type of bureaucrat is going to tell you what to produce and how.
39:14, mentioned only once as his most "extreme view"
We have never had laissez-faire capitalism. Nick is so dry and why the regime libertarians like him just lost the LP. This needed a more radical approach from the Mises side.
THANK YOU
He did actually talk about worker owned means of production... 39:09
nah just capitalism
"There's an ecological crisis looming" - Bhaskar Sunkara. In my adult lifetime (circa 1980 to now), between 60 and 70% of all wildlife has gone from this planet. In one way or another THAT is the greatest failing of Economics, regardless of whether the credo is free-market or centrally planned. The crisis has been underway for decades.
Plants have gotten 40% greener due to us burning carbon tho.
@@SinisterLynch That like congratulating the arsonist for showing up with buckets of water
Humans need to stop infighting long enough to topple our oppressors
Mitch McConnell is Emperor Palpatine
Some of you will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make! - Lord Trump
@Justin Y. Trump is evil. He ignored this virus until he couldn't ignore it...the steps taken have been deliberately slow to contain this virus, as the government has made huge financial gains in allowing particularly older, retired people to die...no more pay outs each month...voting, if still valid in this country...is our only peaceful, legal recourse...voting 3rd party is the ONLY WAY to get real humans in power, rather than dynasty families and career politicians. When we realize the 2 parties we are divided over LOVE the division among us...then and only then may America be great again...
@Justin Y. Lack of knowledge of the deep state? I just accused our government of mass murder...I understand deep state...fact that you refuse to listen, only attack, says too much about you...clearly you haven't known hardship. Clearly none of this has impacted you negatively...you are part of the problem, offering zero solutions.
@Justin Y. Calling me stupid really helps your case...Trump has very limited brain power, as evidenced by his rambling, generally repetitive, toddler talks...although most of us are sorely undereducated, Trump really amazes me every time i listen to his banter. Trump did not close the borders in time, many flights to the USA brought sick folk here. Action wasn't taken until very late February, and by then 15 confirmed cases were more than enough to basically allow what amounts to airborn, quickly lethal AIDS《why this? (Because this virus mutates too fast to create an effective vaccine, which may never get made), upon the world. This is dangerous because common behaviors of common folk, such as shoulder to shoulder events, shopping and sardine packed working conditions, helped this virus along...even as people died in China daily...America went forward 2 full months wothout any concerns...then...rather than force the hands of state officials, and put the population through a 2 month quarantine, we've been seeing states react, rather than prepare...and all at the natural stages this virus thrives on...complacency among enough of us to allow the spread to continue. You refusing to see this logic isn't a blight on my mental capacity, just proves you are as simple as our Lord Trump...and likely among those very few, who like many elites, don't even understand the plight of the masses, whom I speak for, in this contrived crisis...Trump is calm about the virus because he exists outside the bounds of common folk...Trump and other powerful people would never have to take the risk of infection seriously as they are all well protected by expendable servants or can at the least afford to continue living lavishly and distanced from peons such as myself. 9/11 was an inside job and this proves what I've feared since then...that the government can perform mass murder and the people will always just accept it, hire the next sociopath in line, whichever of the 2 evil divisionary parties they aspire to dwell in...
Our educational system is archaic. We could be educating everyone from home...there are no valid excuses for our current broken schooling, and no teachers need lose jobs...as the internet is an amazing communication device...
Taxes are broken. Your dollar earned gets hit so many times...and we all just accept that blindly.
Medicine is broken. My grandmother died because her selfish daughter needed cable tv more than grandma needed diabetes medicine...and millions suffer from the inability to afford insulin, despite that drug initially starting out as a gift to humanity from a generous genius, privatized by evil and greed, priced beyond reality for most.
Our 2 party system is designed to keep us bickering...division keeps us docile enough to accept our own government conspiring to murder us, with our acceptance. 3rd party candidates are generally real humans...that care about other humans, even, gasp, total strangers and foreigners...
We are all on the same damn spaceship...Earth. I judge character...not race, not whatever religion folks are born into. I am old...I am tired of seeing disaster after disaster get slow attention from government, as poor people die in thousands due to delayed or nonexistent help.
It's about time the many take control, with votes, to dethrone the sociopaths that control us, play games with our very lives...
When there are only voluntary homeless, when the janitor is paid living wage, when a high school graduate can earn enough in food service, or retail, to support a modest home and essentials, while creating a nest egg...when veterans are given the same care as Congress, Senate and other positions of highest power, rather than left to suffer and die, when the lowest paying jobs are enough to survive on, then and only then, can America boast of being great...
As it stands...I feel most of us are born into lies we have no control over...It's well orchestrated, as my points are made clear in every satirical broadcast about the plight of the expendable masses, world wide...
Do I want peace, equity and kumbaya? Yeah...I do...are there sociopaths in power oppressing the common folk...yeah...there are...have good Democrats and Republicans existed? Yes...they get blocked by evil at every turn, often resigning due to unbeatable corruption. Do I pity the very people I label simple? You bet I do...I want this planet to be a better place for most...not some...for all...if ever possible...
This covid virus isn't done. It mutates too fast to pin it down with a vaccine...and we haven't seen the end of it because we, as a planet, would have to agree on a few ground rules to consider being a functional society.
That's my 2 cents...some of it...take it or leave it. Most of us just exist and watch, lazily, rather than get directly involved in change. @soaringvulture We don't seem to take note...we, the expendable masses, are being told to push through life ignoring this virus...it took ONE infection to start a Planet Wide Pandemic...and because we didn't quarantine from January 1st to February, we get to watch innocent and otherwise lives lost, daily...who are "we", in "we're in it together"? Certainly not the elite...they step on us to avoid harm...I'm furious with humanity as a whole...I'm furious we accept all this death and Trump's toddler talks...like a Ted talk without useful insight...
Those of us suffering are many...while the privileged watch the show They created...when...when will the common folk unite against tyranny, through the only peaceful means we have...vote out career politicians and dynasty families in favor of fellow human beings, with consciousness and compassion for the lowest among us.
We won't stop the cycle of abuse by trading Democrats and Republicans, two sides of the same evil, corrupt coin.
Vote 3rd party...vote for real people, with flaws, that understand what struggle is...that have put time behind any of these so called essential, yet minimum wage jobs...
This economy is screwed...always has been. The vast majority of work available is menial labor...food service, retail, janitors, grocers...a great many take their wages in government...which is far too big, complex and unsustainable...
Until any job can offer a modest secure household, until the only homeless are those who volunteer to live "free"...until the pill giants are mandated to make life saving medicine reasonably priced...we are a selfish, horrid nation, divided by the very people that oppress us, yet too busy fighting amongst ourselves to take any useful action towards a better tomorrow for the MANY, not the FEW
@@SinisterLynch True
Thats great!
We must all die to end this suffering life is worse only you're fueling it. Is your fault.
This guy is NOT doing a good job on his argument for a better social government. He is just making the guy for capitalism look reasonable... He needs to be more informed in his subjects to go into depth on how unregulated capitalism is taking the USA into becoming a 3rd world country.
Framing this from the onset at a comedy club, automatically made them snarky and sarcastic, and wannabe comedians they are not. What a disservice.
Economic Mobility is so bad here in America. I grew up middle class but not that I’m older, it’s becoming scarily difficult to stay middle class.
Yeah, I was raised in an upper middle class family, which after 2008 became a regular middle class family (I was actually homeless for 2 years during that recession), and now that my parents are gone I'm slightly above the poverty line. I have to rotate which bills I can pay month to month. College was fun but it didn't give me access to any job better than a HS diploma can get a person. To get those jobs you need to take out massive loans and get a post graduate degree. My parents paid their own way through college and law school back in the 70s. By the time they were my age they were on their third house and owned a cabin in the mountains which they had to sell 7 or so years ago to fund their retirement. They had 4 kids, and only one of them owns a house. I'm 39 and I will probably never own a house. I'm not having any kids because I would never want to subject someone to a world I wish I wasn't born into. Even during the good times when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, I told my dad that I was born about 10,000 years too late. I knew from a very young age that this is not how humans were meant to live.
Economic mobility only goes downward for us peons.
@@MrJonsonville5 Best of luck brother, thank you for writing this insightful comment, i didn't know it was that bad over the seas
Thanx. I got a new job in the cannabis industry, and got into a new location as one of the first 10 people hired, and by the end of the month they'll have 40 people...they're hiring 100 all together. So I'll be one of the first in line for promotions at least. And cannabis products are one thing that people use no matter what the economy looks like, so I feel like I have job security.
Short & Long Summary: Yes.
American dream is still going strong in Florida. Love it here
@@JN-wn1kw I'm also in Florida. The American Dream is a joke.
Absolutely love the notes at the bottom. Vice is so classy.
Props to these guys for not screaming at each other over different options and viewpoints
I was really hoping socialism bro was gonna ask my man "who pays for the roads?" Then everyone in the audience would understand that libertarians are clowns, and that governing without government regulation is completely ineffective.
Not only that, but deregulation is what caused, or at least heavily facilitated, the 2008 financial crash.
And I agree, that guy was giving me serious Ronald Reagan vibes - confident with a really soothing voice making him sound like he knows what he's talking about, but in reality he has no idea about the true scope of damage that was caused by neoliberalism.
That may have been the worst argument I have ever heard.
Libertarianism isn’t anarchism
@@GTAVictor9128 Also has point amount economic growth growing at an unprecedented rate since 2009 was so incredibly disingenuous. The only reason the economy could grow at such a rate was because it was preceded with one of the largest crashes in American history.
They decided before the discussion that roads were off limits since it's an op talking point against libertarians
The 2008 crash happened because banks were forced to give out loans they woukd never give out if they could choose not do so. You can thank Bill Clinton for that.
As a progressive, I really appreciate both these 2 guys' viewpoints. Even though I disagree with both guys on a couple things, I realize that their opinions stem from genuine concern and a desire to improve our society, and their thoughts are carefully crafted and both come from a place of evidence.
That's also when I realized debates like these are totally pointless.
If we actually had people with well thought out ideas and a desire to seriously address fundamental issues with evidence based policy, no matter if they were left or right, we actually would be solving problems and we would be able to compromise and make the world a better place.
But we don't. And so we have the America that we do.
The USA is garbage. Circling the drain at this point.
www.streamscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/5Head-Emote.png
Caleb. I, as a conservative appreciate your comment - and I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere, since I gave never heard a real "progressive" say such words without guile. Modern Progressives as we have come to know them have zero tolerance for differing opinions - nor care about facts or effective policies unless they advance a narrow political agenda. That being said, I hope there are more open-minded Progressives such as you.
reason was built on the Koch bros government subsidies to force a free market on everyone who isn't themselves or their elite buddies. I dislike this hypocrisy but still find them worth reading. I also think it's absurd that they just forget some parents wanted their kids to go to that public school they shut down to divert money to charters. They remove a choice and replace it while claiming they're expanding choice.
@@brazosbear4593 What a close minded and ignorant comment. Go outside and meet some people and you won't be so surprised by a pretty common opinion that doesn't reach your echo chamber.
What a great debate. Those two speakers where both very talented and it was both amazing and promising to see them actually agree on a lot of topics(or at least i suppose you could say premises and issues). I am watching this from my homecountry Denmark. It is always interesting to see what's happening in America and it really influences the rest of the world quite a lot. As a scandinavian i actually find myself agreeing with both speakers on certain things. I was really put off by the title of this video as i thought it would just be pure criticism of capitalism and the free market and marxist propaganda but the debate turned out to be very balanced. When i look to America i see a lot of great things and inspirations even with all the chaos that you have right now. I am a firm belivever in the free market for creating wealth and incentive. But one of the most tragic comparisons between our worlds is healthcare. And i would argue that the American healthcare system is probably one of the darkest sides to the country. I've watched a couple of docs about it and have always been horrified by the absolute financial devestation it wreaks on the people who often need it the most and can afford it the least. Something needs to be done there. But on the other hand i also very much dislike all the animosity and jealousy many people have towards rich people. Look at Elon Musk for example. If he didn't have the great capital that he has accumulated through his businesses he would't be able to singlehandedly do all the great things that he is doing i think to the benefit of all of mankind. As is often in life i think the best solutions lie somewhere in the middle of the political poles. More honest and educated debates as these and i think something great might just come of it. This is just my take on all this. Wish you all the best!
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Hell Yes.
As a real estate agent in one of the highest priced markets in the US (Oahu, Hawaii), I can say we are finally shifting over from a sellers market to a more balanced market. Sellers are having to come down in price as they cry about what they could have gotten a few months back. It’s music to my ears since I can finally get more families into our over $1m average priced single family homes.
A large part of the reason these homes are 1 MM in the first place is due to price inflation cheerleaders like you.
A real estate agent with amazing ethics? I wish you all the best in life keep being you 💖💕
Here in Vancouver it's like listed 1.8m, sells for 2.3m. HOW is the next generation supposed to afford that? No wonder theyre forcing an apartment complex on every block.
Sorry but Hawaii is Unceded territory it doesn’t belong to the USA
@@paddington1670 Same in Melbourne 😕
"It's called the 'American Dream' because you have to be asleep to believe it"
A George Carlin quote that never goes out of fashion.
@s v Ahh yes; because everyone in the US totally can make that money.
@@thejapanarchocommunist typical American...
"Germany lost the second world war.....Fascism won." is the *RELEVANT* George Carlin quote.
you still don't get it. to use "Nazi" as an insult means you have no idea how evil American taxpayers actually are.
"American" is a far worse insult than "Nazi"
@@donHooligan It's cute you seem to think I hold America in high regard.
A quote for people who want to sound way smarter than they really are
The current system in a nutshell. If the policies benefit the rich, then it's considered capitalism.......if the policies benefit the poor and middle class, it's considered socialism.
There needs to be more of this kind of public discourse (and private, too), focused on coming together, from disparate ideological areas, varying distances from each other, but sharing the goal of progress. Listen, argue, concede when presented with a better option... Learn from each other, take the best ideas from each side. Return home lightened and streamlined, having shed the archaic, the redundant, and the superfluous.
We instinctively cling to what we know, routinely choosing the known, but detrimental or inferior, over unfamiliar improvements. Most humans first need to practice and repeat venturing outside their comfort zones, but once accustomed, we develop the ability to overcome that lizard-brain, baby with-the-bathwater method of self-preservation. We can assemble better systems once we absorb the knowledge that we will be fine, if we deviate from the paths worn by those before us and seek new routes.
“There is no ethical consumption under capitalism!” That quote has stuck with me for a while. I try to thrift clothing, buy my perfumes on Poshmark and grow some of my own food. Because outside of if it’s working or not, my heart breaks that people suffer for me to have what I have.
Edit: I meant grow food, not grow clothes😂
i wanna grow clothes too lmao
Capitalism is literally just free trade. The problem is when a small business economy becomes a big corporation economy. And then the government injecting itself into those corporations making it impossible for them to fail. Ethical consumption is a culture problem, which is exacerbated by corporatism and a global economy.
thanks for being a decent person
Same here ! That quote hits different
I really, truly hope you're vegan too. The scale of the suffering being perpetuated by animal agriculture is beyond comprehension.
Yes. Corporate greed, price gouging, personal greed and the desire for excess has all killed the Dream. The Fed seems to have no idea the spending power a lot of Americans have, just look at the price of pickup trucks and suvs. Airbnb and the like are destroying home prices, too. Bye bye dreams and goals.
pickup trucks use to be a work vehicle, no frills . now a pickup truck is a luxury vehicle . not the same
America: the land of the middle man
@mVP it’s here now
Say that to the crazy housing market. Prices going up means people have the cash to buy homes. The American dream is still alive and well
The federal reserve is a business it works for the banksters and oligarchs. Much like everything and everyone in the USA are slaves to the ruling elites by design. This is what capitalism leads to by default all roads of capitalism lead to fascism. A modern day form of feudalism plutocracy and inevitably societal collapse. While engaging in perpetual warfare talking doesn't work actions will however.
I wish nick would’ve gone into more detail about the whole abolishing the prescription system thing and explained what exactly he meant by that… I’m assuming he thinks people should have unrestricted access to Rx drugs/medication, and while that seems like a good idea on the surface, the potential for negative consequences/complications is seemingly infinite - drug contraindications; improper usage/dosage; general lack of knowledge; rampant misinfo/disinfo; the fact that the average person, without the guidance, oversight and mitigation of a dr/pharmacist, would be even more susceptible to the deluge of sometimes predatory and/or misleading drug ads; ….and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
I’m curious to know what his what his thoughts are about the many dangers this idea presents and how he would go about mitigating them and protecting patients/consumers in a world where we all have unfettered access to any kind of drug or medication we want, regardless of whether we need it or it’s medically indicated/appropriate or of what risks it may pose to them….? 🤔
Great discussion!!!
the problem is how much power corporations get and how they lobby politicians. all of it is a mess because money becomes more important than morals, human life and environment. so now we 300 people that own all companies and buy everyone out.
I love a quality, educated, and civil discussion on divisive topics such as this. Keep up the great work Vice :)
Really like vice news news from
A different angle and stories that make an impact
I really enjoyed this discussion and it seemed as though both participants agreed on many things
I’m living the American Dream outside of America. Wouldn’t have it any other way. 🙏🏾
The american dream doesnt include healthcare peace of mind , you are wrong
Where?
@@biancalord488 Germany and Brazil. 🙏🏾
You're in a small economic minority in that case
@@joshb3969 Agreed. Possibly b/c 37% of Americans don’t have a valid US Passport. I’d expect this number to increase if more Americans actually purchase a passport and attempt to LIVE in another nation…not simply take a 1 week vacation. 🤞🏾
The American middle class quality of life has been on the decline since 2008 and isn’t going to get better during our lifetimes
For some of us, it's been since 1974.
Solid video! Thanks Vice!
In regards to housing in the US, I think it's generally agreed upon one of the main issues is single-family house zoning dictating what types of housing is allowed to be built. (I believe the libertarian references this). The other issue is that actually repealing that zoning is very difficult due to all the NIMBYs coming out of the woodwork whenever a local gov brings it up to change as they try to protect their house's view and property value by not allowing bigger, taller, more dense housing in their neighborhood.
"People over 55 are working more than they were 20 years ago" because they can't afford to retire. People under 35 who "demand or want their job to express who they are" hold that position because the cost of education is now a financial burden that is carried for 20+ years.
Exactly…. In the 50’s an American male could get a job at the local steel mill and make enough money to have a house, get married, have a couple kids and own a reasonable vehicle. Try doing that today on a blue collar wage.
A person losses $1 B and now worth $1 m, another person goes from being worth $10k to none, but t the first person has power of millions of vote if they spend some of their money meanwhile poor guy still has one vote. How is this a democracy?
The poor guys get dehumanised. It's always "random poor guy lose job" while in case of rich it's "awesome Elon Musk loses billions !!!!!"
the questions at the end are 👌 👍
The "Nordic model" that the guy from Jacobin keeps referencing are all countries with market economies. Yes, they do regulate the market and have generous welfare states. But make no mistake about it: their economies are capitalist at root.
That socialist guy is not a very good advocate for socialism. He seems more like he is actually a lefty liberal who likes the edgy clout of socialism. He should have talked more about how undemocratic capitalism is. He should have talked about how unrestricted profit, and the accumulation of private property leads to the alienation of free choice from the majority of people. It would have been interesting to see if the libertarian would have said that there needs to be redistribution of wealth, and if so, to what extent. The socialist should have given some possible practical solutions to the unfair power that some people have under capitalism, such as workplace democracy. He should have also talked about how in the USA, the two political parties work together to better the interests of the wealthy.
Very curious on Second Thought's take on this.
I agree completely that Sunkara isn't a great advocate for socialism. I suspect that's because he has some knowledge of history and is aware that socialism does not work well on a national scale. The Soviets failed to realize this before their empire fell apart. The Chinese Communist Party did realize this and moved toward freer markets. They may be moving away from free markets now; let's see how that works out.
Sunkara mostly advocates for workers' unions, which are compatible with capitalism and libertarianism. OTOH, workers' unions are not compatible with socialism implemented by the state. The Soviet Communist Party suppressed unions and the Polish Solidarity union played a large part in its downfall.
Rich people making money does not mean capitalism is "working". By that logic, Russia, China, and North Korea are prime examples of working capitalism.
Two out three of the countries you mentioned are capitalist
@@castielsisko2120 All 3 are, that was my point. But people who promote capitalism don't call these countries prime examples of capitalism.
What would you say is "working?"
@@JonathanRossRogers I wouldn't. Capitalism is an impossible concept, it's inherently self-destructive. Technically speaking the examples I gave ARE perfect examples of working capitalism, if capitalism is defined as "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state". But you could argue "this is not FREE MARKET capitalism though!" To which I say; then what is? If the market is free then it is free for monopolies to form, the freer it is, the less free it becomes.
Either the governing body of a country is run by people who can be held accountable and can even be chosen by the people in certain circumstances, or it is run by a faceless entity propped up by faceless shareholders. I know which one I'd rather have.
@@Sun-Tzu- So, nothing is working?
It’s odd that no one addressed the sale of real estate - in particular rental properties - to banks and foreign corporations as a contributing factor to astronomical housing prices.
40 acres and a mule doesn’t even sound bad at this point. Give me that pony.
It was always a lie... the dream was never viable for everyone...
But it was for most...
Is that why a quarter million people walk through 50 miles of God forsaken desert to get here every month?
Say that to the crazy housing market. Prices going up means people have the cash to buy homes. The American dream is still alive and well
Tell that to immigrants that come here legally and make something out of nothing. The dream is viable to everyone, the real question should be what is your dream and what are you willing to do to achieve it?
The American dream is different for everyone, however it’s attainable by everyone.
I mean the "dream" worked for a lot of people back in the day. Not just the US. You'd have a family of 4. Mom, Dad, Son and Daughter. The Dad worked as a whatever, not the most high paying job and not the lowest of wages either. They had a car and a house - proper middle class. It USED to work but it does not anymore.
ask yourself, "why was this country actually founded? what were the actual details of the intent for slaughtering 100 million plus people?" "why was the constitution written solely with the wealthiest "land owners" considered as full humans while everyone else was considered less than human and deserving of less "rights" " then ask yourself -- "what actually was the american dream?" was it to establish monarchies but call them something else? because thats what happened.
Perhaps you are unaware that Black people are indigenous to the Americas. If there were 100 million people killed, where is the proof? I'm white and I say so has never been accepted outside white supremacist circle's.
Hey VICE if you see this please explain how a “temporary wage increase” is possible and legal. This is happening at my job. The wage increase is through the end of the fiscal year (Aug 31). At that time it will be re-evaluated. I’m sorry I cannot give more details as I am concerned about retaliation. Thx!
I truly enjoy both the viewpoints, and I would like more if these opposing viewpoints worked together more in the government instead of stone walling each other and in the end doing very little for the country.
Libertarianism promotes laissez faire capitalism. THAT is the problem in America. Libertarian thinking has widened the gap in wealth to never seen before heights and these people want MORE of that. This is sheer lunacy.
America doesn't have a free market.
@@JK-gu3tl It actually has a rigged system with the worst elements of laissez-faire capitalism mixed together. We literally have massive welfare for the largest corporations deemed "too large to fail." They socialize all the massive losses while they privatize ALL the profits. It's a completely rigged system.
I want a free market.
@@JK-gu3tl The formation of monopolies and consolidation of wealth assures that will never happen. Actually the structure of capitalism works against the very concept of truly free markets.
I love how they aren't talking about what actually happened when it came down to public housing. How it started, how we got capitalism. They're trying not to say minority and are leaving out racism. I just feel like they're leaving out a lot. You can't compare America to other countries because this country has a particular history that's effected the rest of the world. It's also made it difficult for us citizens as well
Martin Luther King, Jr. Actually said in an interview once, that the real struggle in our country was one of the rich versus the poor. But, for a very specific reason, that part wasn't repeated when he was whitewashed.
We have serious systemic racism issues plaguing us. But as we look forward, we also have mountains of problems and I'd argue the only way to address systemic racism is the same way to address all of these other problems, and that's with people actually caring about our issues in the first place.
Bingo!
Perhaps you are unaware that Black people have no friends. Example: how many people besides black people are demanding reparations and a hate crime bill specifically for black people? See
This is the Blindspot of America. They are self-gaslighting themselves as they leave out the discussion of racism
You're right. Racism is a uniquely American problem!
Very great discussion
It occurs to me that what is often lost, when considering American "libertarianism", is the roots and history of the "movement" and why it exists. The Cato institute (a libertarian "think tank", which is actually just means it's a tax exempt lobbying organization) was founded in 1977 by David Koch (you know, oil industry anti climate change enthusiast billionaire) and a couple militant capitalism economists. Their goals were/are: elimination of corporate taxes, elimination of corporate regulations, privatization/elimination of public institutions such as SSA, USPS, TSA, EPA, federal reserve system, public schools and Medicare; they are opposed to minimum wage, child labor protections, OSHA workplace worker protections and worker unionization.
This propaganda/policy org has been the main designer and marketer of the "libertarian movement" over the decades. At the beginning they played an important role in helping to sell unpopular Republican economic policies during the Reagan era with the concepts of "compassionate conservatism", and established a "third way" party platform that has, at it's center, the core values of corporate interests (deregulation, tax abatement on corporations, defunding and sabotaging government in order to encourage privatization of public tax funded institutions so corporations can profit from tax money) all wrapped inside the exciting and appealing promise of ending wars and legalizing drugs and granting individuals their freedoms and Liberty that the big wasteful government is withholding from you. All sounds very reasonable.
It is not, however, a true version of libertarianism such as exists around the world and back through history, delivering actual freedoms and Liberty to downtrodden citizens.
Our version is, quite simply put, a "Trojan horse" that will never deliver on it's promises, but very reliably delivers on it's mission and very reason for existence.
It is a "catch and kill" operation, that pulls potential democratic voters away with the promise of well deserved liberty (along with policies that ONLY benefit the ultra wealthy and corporations), and gets them to either vote republican or libertarian (squandered vote). Unlike foreign parliamentary governments, we have a two party system in America and a libertarian voter is, to put it plain, NOT a democratic voter.
The reason young people are more susceptible is because many have not yet gained critical thinking. It is easy to make the mistake of "listening to what is being explained", when what we need to do is "watch what is being done". If we watch what they are doing, then we will see the truth there.
The whole construct of libertarianism is not tenable, it won't work with a society. It's a ridiculous proposition when it comes to establishing policies that actually meet the needs of societies, and it violates all basic economic principles starting with the value proposition of "economies of scales" and super basic budgeting profit/loss or earnings/expenses balance sheets.
Our attention is better spent exposing and understanding the history and sources of this false premise, rather than entering into debate and giving it any kind of legitimacy. Just my 2 cents, glory to Ukraine.
Imagine how different our country would have been had they invested $40 Billion from the trillion dollar Military Budget to 6 million Americans for FREE 2 year public community college. It’s almost as if uplifting people who lack resources and giving them access to a road to prosperity can help…..
@@roamintheslums4851 no that logic is valid in economic situation where the product is tangible and there is a limited amount. The great thing about education is you choose what you specialize in and the value granted by knowledge is not zero sum. It is silly to think this way, knowledge isn't finite, there should be no violence over it. we should share it for free
@@roamintheslums4851 Most degrees are already worthless and are still required to get an interview.
@@roamintheslums4851 So your degree only shows how much money you spent, not how intelligent or hardworking you are?
@@roamintheslums4851
Even if wages get more competitive, you still have a new, large, skilled labor force. That can have knock-on effects for everyone.
@@roamintheslums4851 no you don’t because it holds knowledge and someone has to do it stupid 💀😂🙄.
“It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.” You can call it the death of the American dream or you can call it the American people waking up.
Waking up to what? The vast majority of people are neo-liberals
We made a dream, excluded large swaths of the population from it, removed the ladder, and then blamed the millennials for not getting that dream. What's left for those who come after us? what's left for us?
Christopher Hitchens said it best when Describing American Libertarians, he said it's quaint that there are people who don't think Americans are selfish enough.
I would say that applies equally to the evangelical Christian church leaders who’ve spouted wealth creation propaganda for decades.
Hitchens would hypocritically support one dictator while criticizing others for the same things those he supports do. A bad liar too.
Yes....long ago. The 1% keeps getting richer as the 99% continues to grow poorer.
I'm getting richer. I'm pretty sure I'm not in the 1%.
Compared to the 1% that's pocket change