Can speakers be placed horizontally?
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- What happens if you take a bookshelf speaker and place it on its side to fire horizontally, as opposed to its originally intended vertical position? Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com...
I have finished my memoir! You can go read it now: www.amazon.com... It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
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Giving myself a pat on the back for also coming to conclusion that the tweeters would be better on the inside. But the big difference between Paul and I is I didn't have a clue as to why.
I agree with Bruce, and so if I were ever to turn a speaker on its side (which I have) and because of not knowing the 'details' of that particular design, I would remove and reorient the Tweeter so that it was positioned as it was when the speaker was standing up as normally it would be (Yes, even if that meant a little bit of massaging / refitting of the Tweeter back into the cabinet). And yes, Tweeters to the inside for sure.
Yes you can place them horizontally and my set up has the tweeters in the center at the same height as my ears and it works perfectly fine. That being said, everything i am about to say is valid for dome tweeters, not necessarily ribbon tweeters. The only theoretical issue is that the waves from the tweeter and the mids/mids speakers will interfere on the horizontal plane where your ears are (instead of on the vertical plane where you wouldn't hear it). In practise that is not really an issue. As for the centre channel speakers, the higher end ones generally place the tweeter and the woofer off axis ie not parallel to the axis of the speaker so that theh are never vertically or horizontally aligned. But, as I said, that is theoretical and i have never heard a noticeable difference, my PMC speakers sound excellent horizontally and fantastic vertically (maybe ever so slightly better but i am not even sure that is the case).
A lot depends on the tweeter. Domes and cones will be fine with the enclosure flipped horizontal, but ribbon tweeters and AMTs, especially the small ones typically found in bookshelf-size speaker systems, won't disperse well if turned 90 degrees and that will make "the sweet spot" for listening very narrow.
Dispersion will be affected regardless of tweeter type. Two way speakers don't have the same degree of dispersion in the vertical plane as in the horizontal plane.
An audio-visual technician asks that kind of question, hey, something is wrong with his professional skills!
@@stanislavshokurov6532 Lol. Technician is a title used very frequently. After all a janitor is a maintenance technician.
carlos oliveira and people can be assholes without a degree
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt There's actually a slight difference between a maintenance worker and a maintenance technician. A maintenance technician has some training and is usually required to pass an annual test in order to still be classified as a maintenance technician. A maintenance worker needs no prior training or testing. A maintenance technician can work alone, a maintenance worker requires supervision.
"Janitor" is a generic term that can mean a maintenance worker, or it can mean someone who cleans up hazardous materials, or it can even mean someone in a managerial position.
The bass is omnidirectional, so it does not really matter if it’s on the inside or the outside in a horizontal placement. But treble is pretty much unidirectional, so placing the tweeters further away from each other (on the outside) will, theoretically, make for a better stereo imaging. On the opposite, if you place your tweeters next to each other, you get more like a mono sound, no matter how further away the woofers are.
Usually tweeters on the inside is preferable. I like Paul but he is wrong here. In an upright 2 way bookshelf it is critical, depending on crossover slopes, to have the speaker at a specific height or you may have response irregularities. Now if you turn the speaker sideways aiming the speaker to the listener will become critical or the same irregularities especially at the crossover point will occur.
carlos oliveira , of course the hight of the speaker placement is important and also aiming the tweeters to the listening position. But I have to disagree on “tweeters on the inside”. There’s a reason 2.1 systems are made of 1 woofer and 2 medium/tweeters, not the other way around (i.e. one medium/tweeter in the middle and 2 woofers on the left / right.
I agree.
I have experimented with this using a pair of Kef reference 103 speakers they sounded best on their sides with the tweeter on the centre of the baffle and the cabinet set on its side so that the woofer was outside of the tweeter. Toe in was based on an imaginary plane connecting the centre of the woofer and the centre of the tweeter. This plane was then pointed at the listening position. I am now considering a new set up where the cabinets are upright and the baffle rotated so that the tweeter and the woofer are side by side. Time to experiment again. Cool question.
During the late 1990s, audiophiles lucky enough to find a good condition JBL 4312 three way studio monitors found out that they sound like Sonus Faber standmounts if you place one on its side on a sufficiently sized stands and tweeters on the inside.
I have surround speakers that are mounted horizontally (well actually at a slight angle to the horizontal), so the sound bounces off the ceiling. It works well for the surround channels. I don't think that's what you had in mind though.
Yes, my Elac CC501 is kind of an Elac FS507 on the side.
Just KIND of since they're not exactly the same.
Listener position relative to speaker placement can have a significant effect here,and as Paul says, the off axis response of the design is influential too.If one requires the tweeters to be directed to the ears for best hf response,then when you sit between them,tweeters on the inside would be best.Also,i would add that the tweeters potentially be angled back slightly relative to the woofer/midrange to aid time-alignment.Having said that,if the design took into consideration that the tweeters were to be placed on the outside,then the designer could tweak the response to compensate for that to a degree(although their distance apart will alter how far they are off axis relative to the listener's ears too).Some tweeters are more directional than others(as a function of their geometry,and/or wavelengths involved),so there are many variables (aren't there always?!).Best to have a play,then make your choice.All good fun.
In a conference room, absolutely nobody sits in the magic spot of a "triangle"... it is called conference room, not music room. Also, they don't listen to Mozart, but to BS Bingo...
And hence you go mono for such environments
Having a different distance to the woofer and tweeter will affect the frequency response. Listen vertically and see if they are better when above or below. For example Mission's that have their tweeter below the woofer so it is farther away, you'd want them upside down if vertical at ceiling level or tweeters outside (I'm picturing there was little or no chance for toe-in). Or there's designs with the baffle tilted back for time alignment. For 1st and 2nd order crossovers with in-phase driver connection, tweeters outside, reverse phase (more common actually) inside...
Excited to see the new speakers!
I can just see those guys in that conference room so confused because the imaging is so off on those Powerpoint sound effects. "The woosh used to pan from left to right on a new slide, now it just sounds like a jumbled up mess! I can't work like this!"
There is a phenomenon of Diving with a tweeter will dive down and vice versa if you flip them upside down because of time delay between the two drivers and off-axis response. This would still be the same if you put them horizontally but in the horizontal plane. Having the tweeters in the centre will cause the top end to actually expand out not the other way round. Be interesting if you flip them around what your opinion is get back to me! how does the soundstage sound with the tweeters on the outside and tweeters on the inside and the reaction to the side walls depends how close they are has a bearing.
At church, I use my 4x12 speaker cabinet horizontally, but facing up. It makes everything work perfectly, it can be cranked, and no one is beamed except for me if I put my head in line.
I have them with the tweeters to the outside. I find them sounding better. More sound resonating from both tweeters and woofers off the wall and shelf of my bed. Oh, funny I did this just a day before this found me. So I wasn't so original, but I like the sound cus it gets more bass and high end from the tweeters.
Many a monitor speaker is mounted from the ceiling this way in playback rooms of recording studios ..usually above the viewing window into the live room.
ive been listening to your posts for a long time as ive been upgrading my hifi.tonight i listened to you saying not to toe in the speakers too much and tilt them back a little.so i did.and what a difference.its opened up the sound stage to where now the image i have is great.as if the band is in my room.i also have the speakers now disappearing.so having 30mins with the light off listening to Pink Floyd ,my experience has totally changed.im running a set of monitor audio platinum pl300's with the emotiva xpa dr2 gen 3 amp ,streaming for my computer through a sound blaster sound card ( i know your not a fan) but i do have the yamaha 3040 receiver too.plus a top line panasonic bluray for cd's.so thankyou for all the advice and tips over the past year or so...cheers
Cool idea on that modular speaker design. Very good.
Placing the woofer inside the triangle will place the lower frequencies closer to the listeners ears. The lower the frequencies the slower the frequencies will progress through the air. This would reduce the muddling of the image due to the timing of the individual drivers.
Eric Tarbox sound....travel at the same speed regardless of frequency
Tweeter *ALWAYS* towards the inside if speaker is oriented horizontally!!!...for proper Sound Staging!!!😉
A centre speaker from a surround system usually has the tweeter in the middle and two bass woofers on the side. Its the same as the satellite speaker with an extra woofer. What about buying these for your stereo if you want extra bass and place them vertically?
Paul, what speaker cables are you using here?
Irrelevant
@@Harald_Reindl , all things audio are relevant on this channel. _Especially_ things on screen.
@@googoo-gjoob for anybody with a brain cables are irrelevant - they either deliver a signal unaltered or they don't - case closed
@@googoo-gjoob but I guess you are one of the fools arguing about quality and use analog sources - poor you
@@Harald_Reindl , sorry for your (absence of) experience.
I use a pair of Bose 6.2's for my LF & RF home theater speakers. They are placed on end to raise the driver positions. Being that the tweeter array is mounted on a bridge in front of the woofer, they never did face forward. Now with them at 90 degrees I get effects from overhead as you would from a soundbar but with more substantial sound.
I've used my 6.2s vertically for a while, but I turned the tweeter brackets 90deg to maintain the horizontal dispersion. Worked fine. Now they are back horizontally as they should, and I've put the tweeter back in their original orientation. :-)
Bose - lol - Bose
The Design Acoustics' PS-8 bookshelf speakers worked well with a down firing woofer about 30 years ago.
Why does an AV tech not know the answer to this?
My center channel speaker is a pair of ATC scm 11's on their sides woofers to the outside.. Sounds superb
Does PS have an audio assisted program like guvment cheese for us Po Fokes? Love you Paul
Great video, answered my question in full
I have my floor tower speakers hung horizontally from the roof in my garage and they work really well!
Remember the Yamaha NS 10M in studios? 😬
Thanks for this!
they call that MTM speakers Paul mid-tweeter-mid thanks again Paul !
Do speaker directivity and room interaction defines the in room frequency response at the listening seat? Is the horizontal speaker directivity equal to its vertical directivity? If not, how much of a difference between vertical and horizontal directivity is necessary to alter the speaker in room response?
Thanks for the answers, I was wondering the same thing.
BUT I guess the question was rather about "does it matter mechanically for cones to be in one direction or another"? I.e. are they designed to play the same, 360 degrees around, or does some part of it rub against something that it shouldn't if a speaker (cone) is installed in a different way that the speaker cabinet is designed? (I'm not sure if I'm clear...)
'Ole Audiophile to Paul: Why I like your posts? We have little in common other than we seem to come up with nearly identical conclusions for audio problems or we seem to think an awful lot alike for some reason. Got me as to why. Problem first posed, my first inkling was why woofers in?, I had to laugh & did. In this very instance, my mains as in front L/R mains are three way powered active that implement a tweeter/midrange structure that can be turned 90 degrees in either direction so they CAN be laid on their sides. FYI, they make em.
In natural live music, light sound objects ar upper, lower and heavy sound objects are down... High frequancies top, low frequancies down... Is the natural way....
Wow that setup looks absolutely stunning... What amp is he got in the background
i wish you wouldn't call those small drivers woofers
If your new speakers are to be placed away from the back wall, can subwoofers (if used per your recommendations) be placed against the back walls? Would this incur any detrimental effects?
Walls are natural enemies of speakers - case closed
My brother has a pair of old B&O speaker's (2400, 3-ways) and they are specifically designed to be placed horizontally. As the tweeter is in the middle of the speaker and the midrange just above it you get that the midrange is the most in the middle. This causes that you get quite a nice soundstage and hear instruments very clear but not too bright because the tweeter only just "brushes" your ear.
mission speakers have tweeter on the bottom and woofer top
Do you plan to make an active bass absorber like PSI Audio AVAA?
Thanks good thing I only have one Yamaha HS5 monitor speaker 😂 So I can lay it horizontally without worry
Depends on the speaker. RTFM.
Where can one go to listen to a great sound system near them?
Movie theater
Searching for your channel for a long time!
Just wanted to ask you...if earpods and big speaker produce the same db ....why do we hear speaker when we are away bfrom it but cant hear earphones from even less than half a meter? What sound property is related to explain this?
Speaker loudness is usually measured at 1 meter distance.
Volume
Very helpful
What about making it isobaric 2 drivers would be better more efficient I know this is generally done with with woofers but should work well with mid-range to lower frequencies make the driver more efficient and have control over the drivers like a servo control principal.
If you take the enclosure from both speakers the one that's going on the bottom with the two drivers 1 driver on the front baffle as it looks now and one inside magnet to magnet facing, with a port at the top with a dome top, the same for the other speaker place it on top of the bottom unit, with a dome so you have a three quarters of an inch gap between the port and the top of the other speaker make this slope bevel about the same as the ls50 on both cabinets. You are creating a Venturi what would work in both directions some tuning of the bevel might be needed if you want it more sound waves facing forward in its projectory
Isobaric loading doesn't make the speaker more efficient. It's less efficient.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt can you explain how it makes it less efficient
@@johnsweda2999 when you use isobaric loading you are using two drivers with the same surface area. You get deeper and tighter bass but because you are driving two drivers instead of one efficiency is reduced. It is obvious when you drive two woofers that it takes twice as much power. The acoustic output though is of only one driver, therefore less efficiency. Totem Manitou speakers had a second driver hidden from view inside the cabinet. For its size it produced powerful deep bass. Isobaric loading was popular back in the 80s for car audio but these days most guys want maximum bass with maximum efficiency regardless of quality so it has fallen out of favour.
Thank you
Working like beavers!
Why question would be . . . why?
William Evans ... so it looks cool? But they don’t look cool if it’s tower speakers 😂
"First off, were not going to turn these speakers on their side..." WHY NOT? try it?! Listen to it! Tell us what happens?! Your conjecture isn't very scientific...
that remind me Roger AB1..separated woofer
If one sells a 30000 dollar speaker and pretends its magic that way the few audiophiles with no education would jump in circles
I have to....and let me guess...the revised speaker will be 20k....his price has changed 3 times already
@Larry Niles no I have not. You know what the Larry. Common Sense tells you to hold off on throwing numbers out there. Or at least it should tell you that. The guy has changed his number on the speakers four times or so now. It's bad business. And I heard them at axpona. They were good but they were not wow. The sound was may be worth 10K.
Human Ears Aligned Horizontally!!!...NOT VERTICALLY!!!😉...My Favorite configuration is MTM D'Appolito Configuration!!! 4-Ohm Mid-Woofers wired in series with custom parallel Zobel network....also with a silk dome tweeter!!! Dynamics Awesome & Sweet!!!😉
That's why stereo is left-right and individual drivers are vertical, to make less difference.
If you look in the mirror you should notice one ear is placed slightly higher than the other, which is how we discern between sounds coming from above or below under most circumstances. If you know otherwise I would like some references to scientific papers, please.
@@mortenwammen4159 Even having a vertical spread of drivers is a compromise, however it is heard. This should not be confused with vertical cues of the original sound field, or the illusion thereof.
sure can
Sounds like your new design is just copying Polk Audio's design from their 5000 series 15 years ago?
Just to be clear, Polk Audio's RT 5000 Home Theater System.
@@rickcsargo6505 You think Polk invented that design?
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt No, but it's still a design copy at best...nothing new and Paul makes it sound like he has re-invented the wheel.
@@rickcsargo6505I don't get that impression. I think Paul likes to explain things like all the viewers are neophytes. Believe me there are many viewers where this may be the best approach.
There are many speakers that share the same design. The JBL 500 series by Greg Timbers for example. So Paul did rip off an already invented box shape.
haut-parleur deux corps
Charlie Williams that’s easy for you to say!
Sounds like the an-3 project is getting out of hand. Someone needs to reel Paul back in to reality
It seems that he figured it's cheaper to ship 2 100lb packages than one big 200lb package?😨😁😉
@@bigjay1970 dunno if it's cheaper but it will avoid ha ing to be shipped freight. What I was commenting on the idea rhat the an-3 has morphed from a sub $8k/pair semi entry-level unit into an infinity irs-5 level monster
eh... the questions are getting more and more boring lately.
Then move on......…...…...…..
Well thats good news. Some of us have two channel and multichannel systems, The wife will be pleased. :-} Less speakers dominating "her" living room.
There is your problem the wife. Its always been my belief a woman should do whats she told. Never let a woman rule you around period.
James Vw Silly me. Happy wife happy life...
"her" living room? ouch
@@jamesvw769
I'm an equal opportunity employer myself!🤓😎😉😁
@@sinclabs She's your wife, not your mommy. If your not the boss in your own home, guess what you are...