Yeees!!! What you say about the feeling when the speakers have the perfect position is absolutely true. Most people are not changig the positions and are not playing with the positioning. They will never have the experience listening to a real nearly perfect sound. When I say: My sound is terrible at the moment, they say: I think your sound is amazing! - Sometimes this drives me crazy (-: Did they ever heard a real live drum on a snare in real life? It hits you like a schoot from a gun in your ears! Did they ever had this sound experince at home? If not, go change the speaker positioning a 1000 times until you hear it! And then never again buy new equipment for a single cent and never ever change anything in your system, buy music then.
Since I watch your content my sound quality has improved dramatically. It went from so-so to incredible, amazing!! Again this time: just lifting the front of the speakers a tiny bit makes a HUGE difference. Also I never thought of towing in a-symmetrically, again a matter of a tiny bit makes a big difference. Thank you!!
You said it all. Congrats! Thanks for this awesome video. In the "chapter" improving your sound I leave here another two aspects: the cable sets and the room itself. These are not free, specially the room, but each one could make an extraordinary difference. I own a Creek 4140, Rega Planar 2 and Dynaudio Excite X14A. Due to the place where I lived I had a good sound but just that. I few months ago I moved to another house and the living room is quite large. I was astonished how the sound changed for the better! Absolutely incredible! For some days I begun to getting late to every meating because I could't stop earing music :D P.S. - I'm from Portugal. Pardon me for my poor English.
Video begins @ 01:20 ;) On a more serious note, room treatments and vibration control are also worthy of far more discussion than they receive on YT but I'll concede that both cost money while 'tuning by ear' is considerably cheaper. We're gear queers, pure and simple, and no-one is happier about that than the audio industry. Thanks for the video.
I was watching the Bob Robbins YT video yesterday and now this video was recommended to me by the YT gremlins. I thank both of you guys for sharing this info. The process makes great sense to me. I'm going to work with the concepts and see what I can do in my limited space here. But...NOW...I have a process.
Hahaha you're completely on point with the head tilting and Jennifer's voice 😂 My living room have horrendous measurements, and i cannot get an optional listening position.. the soundstage moves, and often it sounds that the lead vocal isn't centered where it's supposed to, even when listening to digital.. But in my dad's livingroom back in the day, there was perfect lock, as the loudspeaker would be in the middle of the room far away from walls, as were the listening position, the entire room which was huge was completely dedicated to this listening triangle.
When I started at university, back in the day, studying for a degree in physics, my chief lecturer explained that she simply did not have the tine to cover every topic needed. So each week she gave us a topic to research ourselves. She explained that she wanted an 18 page, A4 typed essay on each topic to prove we’d researched it thoroughly and gained sufficient knowledge. 6 months into the course she said that by now, we must have a reasonable concept of how much information, how many facts, each essay should contain. So she wanted us to condense each essay to 5-6 typed sheets of A4. These condensed essays should contain no less information than our 18 page essays. The way to do this was to ensure that every sentence contained a relevant fact. A sentence that did not contain a fact, was a waste of space and not worth writing. This principal can be applied equally well to the spoken word and is one I’ve adhered to and has served me well throughout my career and life. I’m not getting any younger and time is becoming a more and more precious commodity. So, when I plough through a video that takes 12 minutes of my precious time. Which could have easily been condensed to 4 minutes with no loss of information, I tend to get board and turn off!
Rake angle, YES! It made a HUGE difference with my Tannoy Cheviots. I bought Cheviots because they have great dispersion -- they don't have the "head vise" effect. There is not only one precise sweet spot you need to place your head or only one seat you have to sit in. Most Tannoys fill the whole room and sound great in a wide range of listening positions -- AFTER you add some rake angle, in my case, about 4 degrees. The amount of rake, I believe, depends on depth/height of your room -- a factor of the distance of listening position PLUS distance to back wall. You just have to play with it. Proper speaker feet technology also helps. I formerly used spikes with Herbie's Audio Lab Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders, which were great because you could slide speakers on wooden floors. But IsoAcoustics GAIA III feet result in more precise sound, but, alas, they won't slide.
This is a critically important video. Before getting audiophile quality speakers, placing my old, inexpensive speakers correctly, gave them a remarkably better sound quality. It's like magic. @anadialog, I too still have the effect of the sound stage being affected by the position of my head. It may not be something that can be fixed depending on the room's shape and furniture. But it doesn't bother me at all.
Good video thanks for making. The toe angle is also an excellent way to get imaging when speakers cannot be put at optimal distance. I find that for my sweet spot left speaker direct at listener and right speaker at about 18 to 20 deg offset to right. Experiment it will make a big difference!
Went through Summiko training about 22 years ago. There are some useful things for tweaking, but i prefer other methods to achieve best sound, flat solid response from ea speaker, then stage width consideration and solidity of imaging (largely a function of speaker design itself), then toe in and aim, rake, etc. Lots of starting point considerations, such as long vs short wall, and associated acoustical setup application considerations, treatments necessary, etc. For instance, Russ Herschelmanns excellent teaching on room modes , and setting vs speaker placement recommendations (yes, as with summiko, mixed with some small movements for tweaking, measurements, and listening, and re- positioning, and so forth),. Still, this is all BETTER than simply NOT addressing ANY setup element, and just placing speakers where you think they might go, like most. In the end, your goal is relatively flat even response, solid non bloated good tight bass, proper width of stage,(depth may or may not be adjustable) solid imaging, correct tonality from toe in, image height consideration, acoustical treatments considerations, depending, and so forth. Yes. Its a hands on tinker in the end, and does it sound good to YOU! **Note: stereo setup here. Some steps changed or eliminated for home theater applications
Thanks for sharing your different experience. Its all interesting and worth experimenting...Home theater is not for music reproduction, hence it will need a different setup also due to the presence of 5.1 speakers.
Actually, when I went through the Sumiko (ONE M) training, we were taught that the foundation for ANY high performance theater is to dial in the 2 front mains first - everything evolves from there. If the 2 fronts aren't optimally placed and positioned first, nothing else will be right with the remaining speakers, no matter what you do with delay times and volume levels.
@@bobrobbins5652 Everything else won't be right?? I probably disagree with that assumption. Because one could easily not get the left and right mains perhaps in the ideal positioning, and yet be fortunate enough to do the center and surrounds correctly(.not usually though). Getting ANY of the loudspeakers in the correct location and overall setup is NECESSARY, and requires individual specific attention, one speaker at a time. Yes, sure, the main from 3 are the most critical, and i also start there, specifically the left and right, yes. Summiko is simply training to teach ONE PERSPECTIVE on what THEY feel is the correct approach, though. Again, in the end, you still need to end up with things placed,adjusted and dialed in for not only good sound at ea speaker, but as a cohesive balance and perspective between ALL the loudspeakers in relation to the listening positions in balance with the space, size screen scope, expectations of stereo sound or just 5.1 mixes, and such. (Yes, likely narrower leftand right spread potentially vs all movie setup, depending- certain speaker types CAN image more solidity spread wider than others). I don't think how you get there is the most important, but rather whether you DO get there that matters, and end results. It Does however take knowledge, experience, time, and effort to do it right though. i agree with that..
@@bobrobbins5652 In short, through experience, one needs to weigh out all the elements in play, and make decisions accordingly. Wouldn't you agree? Also certain parameters must be met for the results to be the best any given source or mix potentially can be. And so like you said, perhaps music 2 chanel vs 5.1 theater or more needs to be considered on their own individual merits and requirements, and one sets things up accordingly. And yes, compromises may need to exist in a dual purpose system, but not necessarily, given the right equipment and set, where and how the seating are in relation, yada yada..
@@alexanderscott3790 I'm not going to go back and forth on this - the fronts lay down the foundation for EVERYTHING else whether it is 2, 2.1 or 5.1 sound. End of story - If the fronts aren't right, nothing else in the theater can make up for the problems that causes.
I guess raising up really made difference. I never thought or see about that point. I am little concern height of my kef performance speaker . Some time I feel image little low. Now back spikes of stands screwed down completely , speaker angled up little bit. Now Image feels open now. Thank you very much
Thank you so much, my friend. I love this hobby, no matter how much you think you know, you can always learn exciting new information and techniques!👍. This has become my favorite UA-cam channel!
It really does make a difference. The speakers were already about 45 cm out, and just pulling the speakers out an additional 10cm was enough to "feel" the bass. With an ~10° rake, her voice was indeed elevated. Toe-in was set to focus behind my head. I was quite surprised at how those little, incremental adjusts were so noticable. Thanks for the tip!
Interesting, though not having read the pamphlet I would have thought that seat position and relative height of ears to the speaker (tweeter specifically?) would also be of importance - going to definely look at the tilt as maybe that addresses this 'relative height' factor in some way. Also, I find I can make a huge improvement just by moving my chair/sofa back or forth (if I moved the speakers then the bass/wall relationship would be affected I guess) - even a cushion behind my head can transform the sound (I even found myself reaching forward to feel the face of the singer on one occasion!).
Another great video mate. I have a tip to help with rake angle if you have a wooden floor. When you find the final position,place tape under the spikes press down. Remove the speakers and where the indentations are in the tape fit crosshead screws. You can now adjust the height of the screws and then fit the spikes into them. ,
I like that you said the toe-in can be different angles for each speaker based on the room. But I disagree that the speakers need to be placed along the longer wall. I had that placement initially, but there was very little depth imaging. But when I put them along the short wall around 1/3rd the length of the rectangular room, the depth imaging was astounding. The lead vocals were coming from 10-12 feet behind the speakers and backing vocals or instrumentation sometimes ended up 5-7 feet behind me! That's imaging of over 20 feet altogether. I was enveloped by sound as if I had a 7.1 surround system, but all the music was coming out of only two speakers!
My situation prompted me to tilt my new speakers forward/downward, that makes the "Lock" I suppose, when that happens, I can walk all over the house and room and the music is full and space/air filling, as if the air on entire level of the floor get energized by music, amazing when it happens, but really need a lot of patience, I have 3 subs in the mix too, that complicated things a lot. Key: Trial and Error.
Indeed, but if you place speakers on the roof fully facing down, obviously, your experience would be even better. BTW, the more subs you use the more energized feeling you can achieve, your neighbors too, so it is your "holy grail", especially when you play your favorite Nicky Minaj collection.
Hello sir, thanks for the information on Bob Robbins Sumiko Master Set Up. I have done steps 2 through 5 but step 1 is a no go. My system is in the living room so I’m limited as to how far from the front wall I can move them out. The music is bass heavy because of this, I’m going to try acoustic panels on the front wall about 4” thick to see if it helps tame the bass a little. Stay well
Panels that thick are just not large enough to really affect the bass range. You would be more successful changing your seating position. If your bass problem is more of an upper bass boom then corner traps may be effective. People don't realize that mid to low bass heaviness requires massive bass traps to be effective at all.
carlos oliveira thanks for the advice. I only have one corner of the room with no furniture against it. I do feel some thick acoustic panels would help because it’s only slightly bass heavy and only on certain kind of music genres. I also don’t play the system very loud the most is about 85db. As I think of it maybe my biggest problem is that I have tile flooring a nice thick area rug in front of my towers could also be help tame the bass a little. Anyway Carlos thanks and stay well. I forgot as far as sitting position my chair is not stationary and I used a laser pointer to locate the point of the triangle, and that’s were I sit for quality listening. The stereo imaging is spot on.
I like the word you used(greatest).often I always hear (the best) and I dislike this word.often used by audiophiles.and I believe there is no best in anything. Being all of our ears /recordings/systems/rooms/age. Etc.are different. I believe people need to experiment. In this speaker placement (it costs nothing) My system is in my garage. (Yeah I know) I use bookshelf monitors and a sub.(2.1 ) Dont be afraid to experiment. Your missing out if you dont. Great vids and great topics. Keep it up
I'd go one better, by suggesting the use of elastic bands suspending the speakers, with fine tuning adjustments. This frees up the sound so there's no grounding, as music isn't a grounding form, it's more an airy atmospheric sounding sensation. So as the sound waves move the speakers adjust and move with those sounds from the sheer force of the vibrations. Even large speakers can be somehow suspended and positionally tuned in to the room, with ceiling adjustments and thresholds etc. You get the picture, no let me rephrase that, you get the sound.
This video was really helpful, I've tried this speaker setup method for several weeks and all I've achieved is frustration. But, you've inspired me to keep trying with additional information provided in your explanation. I'll let you know when I hit setup success.
i had my speakers all dialed in as far as sound stage, and sonic detail. but never tried the tilt until i saw your video today. placed a 3/4" strip of wood under the front mounts probably around a 10 degree tilt. Wow got to say loving it!! Now instead of everything right in front of me looking forward i hear vocals and instrument a couple feet higher up. Sounds so much more real. Thinking to make it permanent with some 1" dowel rod painted black and longer screws just move the feet to the other side. Thanks sooo much...Great Suggestion why no one talks of this in speaker setups is beyond me..
Hi, I am writing from Johannesburg South Africa. I have tried to set up my speakers with the Master Set system and so far have spent about 45 minutes trying to do so. I am using B&W 685 S2 speakers and a Rotel RA05ED amplifier [40 W]. My listening area is a room, 6m wide by 4.5 m deep joined to a dining room, 6m wide by 3.5m deep separated only in part by a 2.5m wall behind the listening position. I am finding it a little bit complicated and have a few questions I hope you are willing to answer: 1. Is my room too big for the system to work? In other words, will my speakers and amplifier have enough power and a movement to do the job? 2. Is there a way to objectively hear somehow what I am listening for in the base? For example if I listened to the song on Apple AirPods on Apple Music with the EQ set on a particular setting, for example Bass Booster, would that give me an idea of the correct song? 4. Does it help to turn the treble knob on the amplifier down while listening for the base or will that mess things up? 5. My room has a glass sliding door to one side and an ordinary door on the other. Should they be closed, open or is it immaterial? 6. Finally, I have a glass table that must stay in the room. Should it be left uncovered while doing the set up? Thank you so much?
Hummm...I'd use that for analysing recordings, not optimal playback...IMHO...I guess in a very bad acoustic invironment you could use that to somehow balance...
I would have thought that would be the first major thing, I wouldn't spend all that money just to plonk the speakers any place or angle, strangely enough I had installed a second system in the bedroom today & it was crap until I micro adjusted the speakers. Within 20 minutes it set up perfectly.
Hi. We need some comments on placing the sound-equipment between the speakers. Do affect the soundstage significantly if the rack is wide and tall. Lots of metal-boxes making a wall and creating unwanted reflections. Any comments from Bob Robbins or Anadialog on this, because it's the common way to place your amps and other stuff.
I don't know what Mr. Robbins thinks but the influence is more or less like the rest of the room. Hard things are always negative but I think that gear is better off in the center, possible recessed respect to the speakers. On the other side speakers need some good space all around them, so that rule should always remain, that is for the speakers performance and the vibrations that might affect the system components. There is a school of thought that claims that gear should be on the side and not in the center for these reasons but I think the improvements are marginal and the cables start to get a little too long IMO.
@@anadialog Hi. Thanks for calling back. There is an interesting video wit Paul at PS audio, US about the subject. At HiFi shows he "gets away" as he says with the racks with mounted gear on top of each other. In their dedicated listening rooms however there are no racks between the speakers. Just stuff on the floor. I guess bigger rooms will not be as affected as smaller rooms with gear between them.
I always thought I was doing it wrong with asymmetrical speaker position, i have always done it, not knowing if it made sense, but it worked somehow. Now I know :). Even tilting, to a degree I have inuitevely always done it. I feel better now :). Thanks, nice video.
Very good information. Thank you for posting. Is this for directional speakers only? Or, will this process work for those of us vintage owners who have omni-directional speakers? Are there speakers this procedure will not work with?
I am pretty sure thatbthis peocedure is mainky aimed at directional speakers. Nevertheless, I would try to see if moving the omni speakers things change since we do want both speakers, regardless the type, to work as one...
@@anadialog I have done this setup for planar and open baffle speakers - never had the opportunity to do omni's. The set is for more than imaging - it's also for optimal bass response and midrange tonality.
Really interesting conept. Something is bothering me with alot of those setup guides, that do some perfectly calculated distances and stuff in that they build it around one fixed listening position. But that to me is kind of just as unnatural as a low height in soundstage. Maybe there are some weird ''old school'' people sitting quietly in their chair and dont move and if it works for them, good but to me music is about emotions and emotions move just like that. Maybe i wanna stand up and dance or jump around my room because i m happy or maybe a friend is on visit to listen together and he is obviously not sitting on my lap to enjoy that perfect listening position, maybe i wanna clean my room meanwhile or sit at my desk working. I think music should sound good no matter where you are in the room. Based on math, my perfect listening position would be a right in the middle of my room almost...who is gonna sit in the middle of their room? thats usually where people walk.
Thanks for the video. So for steps 2 and 3 it is better to set the amplifier to mono? I can also set it that both speakers play the left or right channel. Is that even better?
I don't remember now exactly the steps but no, you always stay in stereo. That is the whole point of positioning. The Track from duets is perfectly centered but stereo.
Hi, i have limited space in my music room and often have to disconnect and move my Focal speakers when i`m not listening to them. I have noticed an obvious difference in sound when they are placed in different positions. The speakers are brand new and i`m still trying to find the perfect sweet spot for them. When you get the time could you possibly make a video giving your opinion about the differences between DIRECT DRIVE and BELT DRIVE turntables and which you prefer. Thanks.
Hi, they are Focal Aria 936. The reason i bought these is because they are an excellent all round speaker that can deliver good sound with everything from complicated orchestral music to delicate vocals to bass heavy electronic music. I previoulsy had B.W speakers and Monitor Audio speakers but i blew the bass bins out of both of those. The Focals go really deep on the bass with no distortion and are front ported which is better for my system and room set up. I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to make your videos. You have educated me a lot about audio. Thanks from England @@anadialog
You yave to choose when you think the finally LOCK-IN...start with a small rake angle and try increasing it a little untill it gets worse...then go back. I did not say this in thr vid but it is really helpfull to have someone with you, otherwise you have to ho back to your listening spot every single time...uuugh!!
@@bobrobbins5652 im owning the very rare Mega E 80 of Kücke und Schmitz aka KS Electronics. Big passive Speakers with a fat Output :-)) www.new-hifi-classic.de/wiki/index.php?title=Mega_E_80
Have you ever tryed to put speakers to your sides? Center becomes so clear and if you listen electric ladyland it sounds almost like 3D recording when guitar and other instruments and sound fx flies around and when stereo flanging kicks in. You have to find the listening spot by moving your head to where the center feels like it's coming from inside of your head
Hello! I think Bob's method is quite good and it was a game changer to me. Now i have different distances in both speakers and it sounds really good but....How do i get that dead center image that when i move my head it stays in the midle?! Should i increase the distance to the rear wall? side wall? Should i reduce the toe in??? grrrrrrrr :))) thanks
Hi Great video, but wanted to ask a question regarding lock down of the centre image,, if small movements to either speaker, be it forward/ backwards, tilt or angle, affect the preceved sound, at the listening position, why then after set-up, can you start leaning around and placing your head 2feet to the left or right, and the sound you hear doesn't change, ? Surely if you move to the left or right, it has the same effect as moving the speakers, ? if you move from center, and create a New center, allbiit off center,, the locked image hasn't changed, you have, so how could you hear exactly the same image from a new location, ? Regards Paul.
Hi Paul, yes, of course there is a small change if tilting your head but when you hit the special point where the two loudapeakers are perfectly matched, working in symbiosis with no delay or smearing that cohesion will be stronger and more present that when the speakers are misalligned and in that position the sound combines in perfect hatmory creating a solid image, locked in place that remains in that point regardless if you move around...I hope this was clear enough...:-)
@@anadialog hi, So you're saying there is a change in sound when you tilt your head, but you're also saying it should stay fixed where it is regardless, even if you move around. That's confusing !
@@paulwibb.8944 It does go against logic, but under real-world applications, this effect does happen. I experience it every day with my system and it never ceases to amaze me. Another really fun result of getting the speakers totally locked in is if you listen with your eyes closed and someone walks across the room between you and the speakers - you can't tell! But if the speakers aren't right, you'll notice the person walking across in front of you immediately. Weird, but true.
@@bobrobbins5652 Hi Bob, In a real world situation, the venue plays a huge part in how you hear the proformance, eg open air/ theatre or local pub, and what you are saying rings true as I've been in all the mentioned venues, and as you move around you're quite aware of the sound staying Central to the stage, however as much as you try to replicate this at home, and I have achieved this to a large degree, with my speakers around 8 ft apart and as mentioned by you previously I get a 20 + foot Sound stage and central imaging to die for, but let's not forget we are listening to a stereo pair of speakers, which are not really a real world situation, but they are trying to create that illusion, so when you move closer to one or the other you most certainly can hear that one over the other. I haven't watched your video on setup yet, can I find it here on UA-cam ? Anyway thank you for your reply regards Paul.
I am saying that you will always have a difference in sound percenption. That is how we here. But when you properly lock the speakers they will tens to stay focused in a precise area instead of "following" you.
Hey buddy! Did you get a copy of the MFSL Marvin Gaye “What’s going on”. Fremer just reviewer it at Analog Planet. It is as good as they say, maybe better.
I listen in near Field . Im about 1.6 m from speakers in 9 m room. Of course monitors. Sound is great. Not colored, without boomy bass with precise soundstage . Sound isn't attached to the speakers.
Good question, again it depends from the speakers and the room. The general rule is to create a triangle, you should match the distence that thete is between the speakers. Personally I do not like to be too close, you reduce the soundstage...
This is great advice for conventional speakers but you end up with a small sweet spot but with Ohm acoustics Walsh speakers which are omnidirectional in low to mid frequencies and directional and angled in for the highs the whole room is the sweet spot as such you can walk around your room and hear both speakers perfectly ,also they like to be positioned close to walls .Sangolli Technologie is the dealer in Italy they offer a free 120 day free home trial. They are not cheap but are a reasonable price for audiophile speakers. Zeos "Z review" rates the best speaker EVER. I was blown away when I got my pair.
@@anadialog If you do don't try the 1000's unless you are using a subwoofer as they don't have a lot of bass or the dynamic range of the bigger ones . Forgot to mention the imaging has a reach out and touch it realism as the speakers seem to disappear.
And of course… Synergy Room acoustics They say speakers before sources But what they mean there is synergy which in part is matching sound signatures which is not budget, but dynamics, range, PRAT, tonality. So an ongoing set of research, experience, matching in any sequence you and your budget and interest level allows you. But you know all these already…
Getting the speakers tweeter to or very near ear height eliminates the need to tilt the speaker. Also, if you have a MTM speaker avoid tiling the speaker.
There is a serious problem to this approach, bass. If your room is too small, the long wall will leave horrible results with lower frequencies. Bass sound waves are large and need distance to be produce correctly. This method is only good in large rooms unless you don't care about bass. Now the long wall will do soundstage very nicely, but when you don't have the correct bass, is just doesn't impress. The solution to this is to have 2 subwoofers one in each front corner. That will give the bass sound wave enough distance to be fully realized.
Did you try the technique? Mark out where your current system is just in case and try this technique. Cost is nothing but time. I've done it and it makes a marked improvement. Then I added my dual subwoofers to round out the sub bass.
Wow....I thought it was only my wife that thinks I should put it out in the garage....do (some) women not have the same level of music appreciation because of some deficiency in their hearing?? Please, someone do their PhD thesis on this.......
@@garyspence7949 Actually, women usually have superior hearing compared to men and they appreciate music very much. My former boss at an audio store had the theory that throughout our lives, women are taught and encouraged to reveal and express their emotions, where men are taught to suppress them. As a result, men get more of an emotional release when listening to music - that may be why music is more important to men.
It's way easier to find the low frequency sweet spot in your room. Just put speaker in the corner to wake room modes. Then move back and forth in the room when you find that most balanced spot. There is your listening position, boom
I think I can tell when it’s good because you get a really uncanny holographic effect but man , this fella must have the hearing of a bat ! Great video !
For most of us the music we listen to was recorded in a studio -...not live! Bob Robbins' method is SOLELY based upon a SINGLE live recording.Also you would need to move your speakers everytime you change the source/recording. This' method only works if you want to move your speakers every single time you listen to a new track. Stop wasting your time and just go with a Near Field listening environment.
Correct, as most mixing and mastering is done in near field with monitors at the console or on/in front of the desk. Preferably with speaker placement in the middle of the room, away from any walls.
I've seen this argument from you on my You Tube video - the song was not recorded live , and when used as the tool it is for The "ARSP", it sets the speakers optimally for ALL TYPES of music. Once the speakers are set they don't need to be moved for different types of music or different songs - my speakers haven't moved for over 11 years!
Supposedly another secret to speaker position is to have your speakers .83 distance apart from each other from the distance the speaker is to your ear, so if your speakers are 7 feet apart then they should be 8 feet 5 inches away from your ear.
Priorities for Hi Fi. 1. Room treatment - get rid of modes. Do it with bass traps, absorbers and diffusers. If you don't attend to this, nothing else you do can be effective. 2. Speaker design and placement. Speaker response can be equalised with products like Sonarworks. Don't attempt to use this to correct a room. That's it. The electronic kit is all essentially perfect. You spend extra money on glitz and bragging rights only. And of course put the vinyl and analogue tape where they belong - in the nearest dumpster.
Headphones are great but cannot rival with speakers...not only for the soundstage and imaging but also for the ambience reverberation and space around the instruments...with headphones all this is artificial...
Do you posess any speakers. If so it's the openness of speakers that add ambience & give a more natural sound something I have discovered headphones can not replace natural openness of sound clamped to your head. Although my headphones are used when travelling or if the wife's watching TV I use speakers whenever I can.
Remember that the humidity also effect the sound. You also have to have audiophile hearing. ( thats the ability to hear the differens between different speaker cables) And no wax in the ears!
OR,,,,, get a pair of polk SDAs and forget about the room . Those speakers will sound incredible in the crappiest of rooms . aside from that ,don't forget to 'condition the listener as well . a joyous person will enjoy any level of speaker and gear quality .
True, it is rather obvious but, yes, its a good idea also to mention that. It depends a lot from the type of speaker but generally speaking it is always a good idea to have space around a speaker unless you want to deliberately enhance some frequencies.
@@anadialog The reason why I asked is because I'm unhappy with the sound of my setup. My left speaker is 1 metre from the left wall and my right speaker is 5 metres from the right wall. I could change the whole living room around and place the speakers along the shorter wall and this would give me more symmetry.
Bob Robbins realy dose reset these other UA-camrs with what real " Hi Fi " platform . All " Hi Fi " Lovers should listen to this man as he really dose clear the crap off the " Hi Fi platform were others have turned in to a debate . All this DSP middleman garbage has distorted the path for new beginners . This guy will will straighten out all that High Preached none sense and everything else back to Hi Fi s original state ! Spot on he is go check him out . Real " Hi Fi " restored Bob Robbins
Or using songs that you know well that have good dynamics, and spacing. Hence why Steely Dan is used when tuning a room. If you go to a lot of hifi shops a lot of times they are listening to the lamest music.
It's true the song will creep into your nightmares over time if used often enough - but it is an excellent tool for the setup process - I never listen to it except when I do sets.
Not a big secret at all. Take the rule of thirds as a starting point, look at first reflection points (walls, doors, windows floor and even ceiling) and move speakers about as well as toe in and out. As for bass, even a tile floor under carpet can pretty mess up your sound with bad placement. But a room shouldn't be sterile either. This should get anybody started. Focus on reflections (mids & highs) and resonance (basicly bass). What an even bigger surprise to me was, was the usage of a propper decoupling of the gear in an audio rack.
For me the rank angle and asymmetrical toe-in were great news! Decoupling? Raks? I agree. One of my first vids: ua-cam.com/video/UYMbi7v2pNU/v-deo.html
Do Not Face The Speaker at U....Turn Them Facing..... Face The Right Speaker To The Right....Than Face The Left Speaker To The Left.....The Receiver Should Be In Surround Sound.... Dolby Is Best....What To Get It In Possession To Bounce The Sound Off The Wall ...
Why is it that none of you alleged audiophiles ever mention that the contour of human ears is arranged at about a 150 degree configuration? Why wouild companys like JBL recommend putting speakers in an equilateral( 60 degree ) configuration? I have my Def 45's arranged that way( 150) as I find it the only way( besides HPhones) to get full stereo dynamics-- imqging.
True but things in the world don't take into account how are ears are. Loudspeaker companies give some reccomendations on their own products. This method presented here isn't for all speakers but I would give it a try before ditching it.
One of the Biggest Mistakes Is Placing It In the Every Day Way We Done It For 50 years.... Second Mistake is Putting Your Smart TV in a Inclosesure...The Worst Things U can do
Have you got nasal polyps ????, my life was hell until i got a cure ( no steroids ) , if you do , get in touch , if not i apologise for bothering you , Oh ! , fantastic video's ............
@@anadialog sorry for being intrusive !, i just suspected that you had the same ailment as myself , and after about ten years of sheer hell i got a cure !, i thought that i might be able to help , all the very best , Matt from Scotland ...........
I had nasal polyps developing over several years. My doctor prescribed steroids of increasing doses. Didn't work. Eventually, I couldn't smell. Got an operation. All is fine now!
@@cogitoergosumsc5717 Thats really really great , I know only to well the suffering that this condition can cause !, I hope the operation works long term ( not always a succes ) i use NEILMED ! can be got at most chemist shops ( the greeks used this thousands of years ago , a natural product that worked miricles for me , no steroids which i was prescribed for life !, ) Good Luck my friend !..............
Just wear your favorite headphones... no need for all the perfect specific speaker placement and far less wattage is needed to drive headphones verses "X" wattage speakers not to mention you will ALWAYS be in the sweet spot LOL
But unfortunately headphones do not recreate a true and faithful reproduction of sound for 1 main reason: sound in reality travels and bounces off the environment in which it is played and it does not reach immediately your ears. Headphones are more artificial whereas speakers are more natural. In any case both obviously remain artificial.
We're chasing the unicorn at this point. I get it, there's a 'sweet' spot for people but this is the kind of shit audiophiles get meme'd for. Just enjoy your music...
@@anadialog It's the exact opposite of mathematical - I don't measure anything when I do a set - our sense of hearing isn't based on measured distances.
This makes me think how the best calculation instruments available to us, our senses. Like, put a ball on a ramp and watch your senses knowing exactly when it will get to the end. Or hawks making logarithmic spirals to catch prey. Or jazz musicians. But its not to follow a formula or metronome like you couldn't do better by yourself , more accurate with our experience and capabilities, observation and creativity Btw, thanks for this work both of you
![ANA[DIA]LOG](http://yt3.ggpht.com/50CpmGNilS8aoMlarZVhI_GxRDoZdbj4ZgwCMZXg-Rq2PrEvCytlE6RVyLUrNY-rwE_sAlZ1Zw=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
Yeees!!! What you say about the feeling when the speakers have the perfect position is absolutely true. Most people are not changig the positions and are not playing with the positioning. They will never have the experience listening to a real nearly perfect sound. When I say: My sound is terrible at the moment, they say: I think your sound is amazing! - Sometimes this drives me crazy (-: Did they ever heard a real live drum on a snare in real life? It hits you like a schoot from a gun in your ears! Did they ever had this sound experince at home? If not, go change the speaker positioning a 1000 times until you hear it! And then never again buy new equipment for a single cent and never ever change anything in your system, buy music then.
100% true!
Since I watch your content my sound quality has improved dramatically. It went from so-so to incredible, amazing!! Again this time: just lifting the front of the speakers a tiny bit makes a HUGE difference. Also I never thought of towing in a-symmetrically, again a matter of a tiny bit makes a big difference. Thank you!!
Thank you so much for your feedback 😊 it means a lot to me!
You said it all. Congrats! Thanks for this awesome video. In the "chapter" improving your sound I leave here another two aspects: the cable sets and the room itself. These are not free, specially the room, but each one could make an extraordinary difference. I own a Creek 4140, Rega Planar 2 and Dynaudio Excite X14A. Due to the place where I lived I had a good sound but just that. I few months ago I moved to another house and the living room is quite large. I was astonished how the sound changed for the better! Absolutely incredible! For some days I begun to getting late to every meating because I could't stop earing music :D
P.S. - I'm from Portugal. Pardon me for my poor English.
Slave to the music! Awesome! Yes, listening environment is on my list...
Video begins @ 01:20 ;)
On a more serious note, room treatments and vibration control are also worthy of far more discussion than they receive on YT but I'll concede that both cost money while 'tuning by ear' is considerably cheaper. We're gear queers, pure and simple, and no-one is happier about that than the audio industry.
Thanks for the video.
🤣🤣
I was watching the Bob Robbins YT video yesterday and now this video was recommended to me by the YT gremlins. I thank both of you guys for sharing this info. The process makes great sense to me. I'm going to work with the concepts and see what I can do in my limited space here. But...NOW...I have a process.
Great! Give us some feedback...the good and the bad, no problem!
I love watching your videos! I feel like we are just hanging out! Having fun and talking hifi common sense.
Hey Trey! That is one of the best compliments I ever received. Thank you so much!
Hahaha you're completely on point with the head tilting and Jennifer's voice 😂
My living room have horrendous measurements, and i cannot get an optional listening position.. the soundstage moves, and often it sounds that the lead vocal isn't centered where it's supposed to, even when listening to digital..
But in my dad's livingroom back in the day, there was perfect lock, as the loudspeaker would be in the middle of the room far away from walls, as were the listening position, the entire room which was huge was completely dedicated to this listening triangle.
Number one freebie too is speaker positioning....that is the game right there for listening to music!
Video in the near future: "HOW to build your house for perfect audio experience"
When I started at university, back in the day, studying for a degree in physics, my chief lecturer explained that she simply did not have the tine to cover every topic needed. So each week she gave us a topic to research ourselves. She explained that she wanted an 18 page, A4 typed essay on each topic to prove we’d researched it thoroughly and gained sufficient knowledge. 6 months into the course she said that by now, we must have a reasonable concept of how much information, how many facts, each essay should contain. So she wanted us to condense each essay to 5-6 typed sheets of A4. These condensed essays should contain no less information than our 18 page essays. The way to do this was to ensure that every sentence contained a relevant fact. A sentence that did not contain a fact, was a waste of space and not worth writing.
This principal can be applied equally well to the spoken word and is one I’ve adhered to and has served me well throughout my career and life. I’m not getting any younger and time is becoming a more and more precious commodity. So, when I plough through a video that takes 12 minutes of my precious time. Which could have easily been condensed to 4 minutes with no loss of information, I tend to get board and turn off!
Rake angle, YES! It made a HUGE difference with my Tannoy Cheviots. I bought Cheviots because they have great dispersion -- they don't have the "head vise" effect. There is not only one precise sweet spot you need to place your head or only one seat you have to sit in. Most Tannoys fill the whole room and sound great in a wide range of listening positions -- AFTER you add some rake angle, in my case, about 4 degrees. The amount of rake, I believe, depends on depth/height of your room -- a factor of the distance of listening position PLUS distance to back wall. You just have to play with it. Proper speaker feet technology also helps. I formerly used spikes with Herbie's Audio Lab Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders, which were great because you could slide speakers on wooden floors. But IsoAcoustics GAIA III feet result in more precise sound, but, alas, they won't slide.
You'll make them slide, by tilting them and then push some cloth beneath.
Have not tried the speaker leveling yet. That new to me. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thank YOU!
This is a critically important video. Before getting audiophile quality speakers, placing my old, inexpensive speakers correctly, gave them a remarkably better sound quality. It's like magic.
@anadialog, I too still have the effect of the sound stage being affected by the position of my head. It may not be something that can be fixed depending on the room's shape and furniture. But it doesn't bother me at all.
Good video thanks for making. The toe angle is also an excellent way to get imaging when speakers cannot be put at optimal distance. I find that for my sweet spot left speaker direct at listener and right speaker at about 18 to 20 deg offset to right. Experiment it will make a big difference!
I agree!
Went through Summiko training about 22 years ago. There are some useful things for tweaking, but i prefer other methods to achieve best sound, flat solid response from ea speaker, then stage width consideration and solidity of imaging (largely a function of speaker design itself), then toe in and aim, rake, etc.
Lots of starting point considerations, such as long vs short wall, and associated acoustical setup application considerations, treatments necessary, etc. For instance, Russ Herschelmanns excellent teaching on room modes , and setting vs speaker placement recommendations (yes, as with summiko, mixed with some small movements for tweaking, measurements, and listening, and re- positioning, and so forth),.
Still, this is all BETTER than simply NOT addressing ANY setup element, and just placing speakers where you think they might go, like most. In the end, your goal is relatively flat even response, solid non bloated good tight bass, proper width of stage,(depth may or may not be adjustable) solid imaging, correct tonality from toe in, image height consideration, acoustical treatments considerations, depending, and so forth.
Yes. Its a hands on tinker in the end, and does it sound good to YOU!
**Note: stereo setup here. Some steps changed or eliminated for home theater applications
Thanks for sharing your different experience. Its all interesting and worth experimenting...Home theater is not for music reproduction, hence it will need a different setup also due to the presence of 5.1 speakers.
Actually, when I went through the Sumiko (ONE M) training, we were taught that the foundation for ANY high performance theater is to dial in the 2 front mains first - everything evolves from there. If the 2 fronts aren't optimally placed and positioned first, nothing else will be right with the remaining speakers, no matter what you do with delay times and volume levels.
@@bobrobbins5652 Everything else won't be right?? I probably disagree with that assumption. Because one could easily not get the left and right mains perhaps in the ideal positioning, and yet be fortunate enough to do the center and surrounds correctly(.not usually though). Getting ANY of the loudspeakers in the correct location and overall setup is NECESSARY, and requires individual specific attention, one speaker at a time. Yes, sure, the main from 3 are the most critical, and i also start there, specifically the left and right, yes.
Summiko is simply training to teach ONE PERSPECTIVE on what THEY feel is the correct approach, though. Again, in the end, you still need to end up with things placed,adjusted and dialed in for not only good sound at ea speaker, but as a cohesive balance and perspective between ALL the loudspeakers in relation to the listening positions in balance with the space, size screen scope, expectations of stereo sound or just 5.1 mixes, and such. (Yes, likely narrower leftand right spread potentially vs all movie setup, depending- certain speaker types CAN image more solidity spread wider than others).
I don't think how you get there is the most important, but rather whether you DO get there that matters, and end results.
It Does however take knowledge, experience, time, and effort to do it right though. i agree with that..
@@bobrobbins5652 In short, through experience, one needs to weigh out all the elements in play, and make decisions accordingly. Wouldn't you agree? Also certain parameters must be met for the results to be the best any given source or mix potentially can be. And so like you said, perhaps music 2 chanel vs 5.1 theater or more needs to be considered on their own individual merits and requirements, and one sets things up accordingly. And yes, compromises may need to exist in a dual purpose system, but not necessarily, given the right equipment and set, where and how the seating are in relation, yada yada..
@@alexanderscott3790 I'm not going to go back and forth on this - the fronts lay down the foundation for EVERYTHING else whether it is 2, 2.1 or 5.1 sound. End of story - If the fronts aren't right, nothing else in the theater can make up for the problems that causes.
I guess raising up really made difference. I never thought or see about that point. I am little concern height of my kef performance speaker . Some time I feel image little low. Now back spikes of stands screwed down completely , speaker angled up little bit. Now Image feels open now. Thank you very much
Great! Thanks for sharing Ravi!!
Fantastico I will definitely give it a try once again thank you so much
Give us some feedback!
Thank you so much, my friend. I love this hobby, no matter how much you think you know, you can always learn exciting new information and techniques!👍. This has become my favorite UA-cam channel!
It really does make a difference. The speakers were already about 45 cm out, and just pulling the speakers out an additional 10cm was enough to "feel" the bass. With an ~10° rake, her voice was indeed elevated. Toe-in was set to focus behind my head. I was quite surprised at how those little, incremental adjusts were so noticable. Thanks for the tip!
Great Mark!! I am glad to gear this!
Interesting, though not having read the pamphlet I would have thought that seat position and relative height of ears to the speaker (tweeter specifically?) would also be of importance - going to definely look at the tilt as maybe that addresses this 'relative height' factor in some way.
Also, I find I can make a huge improvement just by moving my chair/sofa back or forth (if I moved the speakers then the bass/wall relationship would be affected I guess) - even a cushion behind my head can transform the sound (I even found myself reaching forward to feel the face of the singer on one occasion!).
One time the singer went into my kitchen and made a sandwich.
Then I knew the speakers were just right.
Another great video mate. I have a tip to help with rake angle if you have a wooden floor. When you find the final position,place tape under the spikes press down. Remove the speakers and where the indentations are in the tape fit crosshead screws. You can now adjust the height of the screws and then fit the spikes into them.
,
I like that you said the toe-in can be different angles for each speaker based on the room. But I disagree that the speakers need to be placed along the longer wall. I had that placement initially, but there was very little depth imaging. But when I put them along the short wall around 1/3rd the length of the rectangular room, the depth imaging was astounding. The lead vocals were coming from 10-12 feet behind the speakers and backing vocals or instrumentation sometimes ended up 5-7 feet behind me! That's imaging of over 20 feet altogether. I was enveloped by sound as if I had a 7.1 surround system, but all the music was coming out of only two speakers!
You did good! I am just giving general indications but each room is a whole different story and one must experiment!
My situation prompted me to tilt my new speakers forward/downward, that makes the "Lock" I suppose, when that happens, I can walk all over the house and room and the music is full and space/air filling, as if the air on entire level of the floor get energized by music, amazing when it happens, but really need a lot of patience, I have 3 subs in the mix too, that complicated things a lot.
Key: Trial and Error.
Indeed, but if you place speakers on the roof fully facing down, obviously, your experience would be even better. BTW, the more subs you use the more energized feeling you can achieve, your neighbors too, so it is your "holy grail", especially when you play your favorite Nicky Minaj collection.
Hello sir, thanks for the information on Bob Robbins Sumiko Master Set Up. I have done steps 2 through 5 but step 1 is a no go. My system is in the living room so I’m limited as to how far from the front wall I can move them out. The music is bass heavy because of this, I’m going to try acoustic panels on the front wall about 4” thick to see if it helps tame the bass a little. Stay well
Panels that thick are just not large enough to really affect the bass range. You would be more successful changing your seating position. If your bass problem is more of an upper bass boom then corner traps may be effective. People don't realize that mid to low bass heaviness requires massive bass traps to be effective at all.
carlos oliveira thanks for the advice. I only have one corner of the room with no furniture against it. I do feel some thick acoustic panels would help because it’s only slightly bass heavy and only on certain kind of music genres. I also don’t play the system very loud the most is about 85db. As I think of it maybe my biggest problem is that I have tile flooring a nice thick area rug in front of my towers could also be help tame the bass a little. Anyway Carlos thanks and stay well. I forgot as far as sitting position my chair is not stationary and I used a laser pointer to locate the point of the triangle, and that’s were I sit for quality listening. The stereo imaging is spot on.
I like the word you used(greatest).often I always hear (the best) and I dislike this word.often used by audiophiles.and I believe there is no best in anything. Being all of our ears /recordings/systems/rooms/age. Etc.are different.
I believe people need to experiment. In this speaker placement (it costs nothing)
My system is in my garage. (Yeah I know)
I use bookshelf monitors and a sub.(2.1 )
Dont be afraid to experiment. Your missing out if you dont.
Great vids and great topics. Keep it up
I'd go one better, by suggesting the use of elastic bands suspending the speakers, with fine tuning adjustments. This frees up the sound so there's no grounding, as music isn't a grounding form, it's more an airy atmospheric sounding sensation. So as the sound waves move the speakers adjust and move with those sounds from the sheer force of the vibrations. Even large speakers can be somehow suspended and positionally tuned in to the room, with ceiling adjustments and thresholds etc. You get the picture, no let me rephrase that, you get the sound.
Thanks for the informative video
Thank YOU Manas!
How can I tell which the highest quality low frequency is? Any hint on what should I listen to? I am newbie to this. Thank you.
The one that sounds better to you or more faithful if you are familiar with live music
This video was really helpful, I've tried this speaker setup method for several weeks and all I've achieved is frustration. But, you've inspired me to keep trying with additional information provided in your explanation. I'll let you know when I hit setup success.
Please do!
i had my speakers all dialed in as far as sound stage, and sonic detail. but never tried the tilt until i saw your video today. placed a 3/4" strip of wood under the front mounts probably around a 10 degree tilt. Wow got to say loving it!! Now instead of everything right in front of me looking forward i hear vocals and instrument a couple feet higher up. Sounds so much more real. Thinking to make it permanent with some 1" dowel rod painted black and longer screws just move the feet to the other side. Thanks sooo much...Great Suggestion why no one talks of this in speaker setups is beyond me..
Hi,
I am writing from Johannesburg South Africa.
I have tried to set up my speakers with the Master Set system and so far have spent about 45 minutes trying to do so. I am using B&W 685 S2 speakers and a Rotel RA05ED amplifier [40 W]. My listening area is a room, 6m wide by 4.5 m deep joined to a dining room, 6m wide by 3.5m deep separated only in part by a 2.5m wall behind the listening position. I am finding it a little bit complicated and have a few questions I hope you are willing to answer:
1. Is my room too big for the system to work? In other words, will my speakers and amplifier have enough power and a movement to do the job?
2. Is there a way to objectively hear somehow what I am listening for in the base? For example if I listened to the song on Apple AirPods on Apple Music with the EQ set on a particular setting, for example Bass Booster, would that give me an idea of the correct song?
4. Does it help to turn the treble knob on the amplifier down while listening for the base or will that mess things up?
5. My room has a glass sliding door to one side and an ordinary door on the other. Should they be closed, open or is it immaterial?
6. Finally, I have a glass table that must stay in the room. Should it be left uncovered while doing the set up?
Thank you so much?
Credits too all three of you. Just when you thought you know it all there's always something else HATS OFF AND TAKE A BOW
Thanks for the video! I can't wait to try this out. Also keep up the good work, love your videos
Thank you do much Jouri!
I'd like to add that balance control can also aid in obtaining better sound. audible illusions pre-amps have separate controls for l/r.
Hummm...I'd use that for analysing recordings, not optimal playback...IMHO...I guess in a very bad acoustic invironment you could use that to somehow balance...
Bravo
I would have thought that would be the first major thing, I wouldn't spend all that money just to plonk the speakers any place or angle, strangely enough I had installed a second system in the bedroom today & it was crap until I micro adjusted the speakers. Within 20 minutes it set up perfectly.
Excelent
Hi. We need some comments on placing the sound-equipment between the speakers. Do affect the soundstage significantly if the rack is wide and tall. Lots of metal-boxes making a wall and creating unwanted reflections. Any comments from Bob Robbins or Anadialog on this, because it's the common way to place your amps and other stuff.
I don't know what Mr. Robbins thinks but the influence is more or less like the rest of the room. Hard things are always negative but I think that gear is better off in the center, possible recessed respect to the speakers. On the other side speakers need some good space all around them, so that rule should always remain, that is for the speakers performance and the vibrations that might affect the system components. There is a school of thought that claims that gear should be on the side and not in the center for these reasons but I think the improvements are marginal and the cables start to get a little too long IMO.
@@anadialog Hi. Thanks for calling back. There is an interesting video wit Paul at PS audio, US about the subject. At HiFi shows he "gets away" as he says with the racks with mounted gear on top of each other. In their dedicated listening rooms however there are no racks between the speakers. Just stuff on the floor. I guess bigger rooms will not be as affected as smaller rooms with gear between them.
I always thought I was doing it wrong with asymmetrical speaker position, i have always done it, not knowing if it made sense, but it worked somehow. Now I know :). Even tilting, to a degree I have inuitevely always done it. I feel better now :). Thanks, nice video.
Congratulations! You're avangard!!
Very good information. Thank you for posting. Is this for directional speakers only? Or, will this process work for those of us vintage owners who have omni-directional speakers? Are there speakers this procedure will not work with?
I am pretty sure thatbthis peocedure is mainky aimed at directional speakers. Nevertheless, I would try to see if moving the omni speakers things change since we do want both speakers, regardless the type, to work as one...
@@anadialog I have done this setup for planar and open baffle speakers - never had the opportunity to do omni's. The set is for more than imaging - it's also for optimal bass response and midrange tonality.
Thanks for pointing that out!
Really interesting conept. Something is bothering me with alot of those setup guides, that do some perfectly calculated distances and stuff in that they build it around one fixed listening position. But that to me is kind of just as unnatural as a low height in soundstage. Maybe there are some weird ''old school'' people sitting quietly in their chair and dont move and if it works for them, good but to me music is about emotions and emotions move just like that. Maybe i wanna stand up and dance or jump around my room because i m happy or maybe a friend is on visit to listen together and he is obviously not sitting on my lap to enjoy that perfect listening position, maybe i wanna clean my room meanwhile or sit at my desk working. I think music should sound good no matter where you are in the room. Based on math, my perfect listening position would be a right in the middle of my room almost...who is gonna sit in the middle of their room? thats usually where people walk.
Did you figure it out?
Thanks for the video. So for steps 2 and 3 it is better to set the amplifier to mono? I can also set it that both speakers play the left or right channel. Is that even better?
I don't remember now exactly the steps but no, you always stay in stereo. That is the whole point of positioning. The Track from duets is perfectly centered but stereo.
I knew that it was important to notice the room space and position to have the highest quality music experience.
Listening to only one speaker for testing power cables ar
e also the best way to compare power cables. Have you done a video on Powercables?
Cool! I have done a video on making your own: ua-cam.com/video/qlQXmQlBaVA/v-deo.html
Hi, i have limited space in my music room and often have to disconnect and move my Focal speakers when i`m not listening to them. I have noticed an obvious difference in sound when they are placed in different positions. The speakers are brand new and i`m still trying to find the perfect sweet spot for them.
When you get the time could you possibly make a video giving your opinion about the differences between DIRECT DRIVE and BELT DRIVE turntables and which you prefer. Thanks.
Focal...uuuh, which model? Good idea a tt motor type comparison!
Hi, they are Focal Aria 936. The reason i bought these is because they are an excellent all round speaker that can deliver good sound with everything from complicated orchestral music to delicate vocals to bass heavy electronic music. I previoulsy had B.W speakers and Monitor Audio speakers but i blew the bass bins out of both of those. The Focals go really deep on the bass with no distortion and are front ported which is better for my system and room set up.
I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to make your videos. You have educated me a lot about audio. Thanks from England
@@anadialog
Chingon!!! Thx!!! 🍻🍻🍻🍻
Sei Grande,grazie,di nuovo molto inspirativo!
Grazie Martin!!!
what do you think about the degree aproximatly should be to have the Speakers bend backwards?
You yave to choose when you think the finally LOCK-IN...start with a small rake angle and try increasing it a little untill it gets worse...then go back. I did not say this in thr vid but it is really helpfull to have someone with you, otherwise you have to ho back to your listening spot every single time...uuugh!!
Depends on the speaker - driver configuration, dispersion pattern, etc - usually it's very subtle, barely discernible.
@@bobrobbins5652 im owning the very rare Mega E 80 of Kücke und Schmitz aka KS Electronics. Big passive Speakers with a fat Output :-))
www.new-hifi-classic.de/wiki/index.php?title=Mega_E_80
@@4130aykut I would need to see a picture of your room and the speakers - send to bob@myspeakersetup.com
ill do!
Have you ever tryed to put speakers to your sides? Center becomes so clear and if you listen electric ladyland it sounds almost like 3D recording when guitar and other instruments and sound fx flies around and when stereo flanging kicks in. You have to find the listening spot by moving your head to where the center feels like it's coming from inside of your head
Interesting! No, I haven't! Almost like giant open back headphones...
@@anadialog Yes. But dont put them too close
@@anadialog like if your spread your arms to your sides it will be good distance
Yes if course! I would say at least 3 m, around 7 or 8 feet I think...
Track Gypsy Eyes by Hendrix sounds incredible with this setup. Stereo flanging melts your head!
Thank you from France for your advices
Even if i didn't all undertand
You are welcome! A suggestion: Activate the subtitles for some extra help!
I am wondering, is it maybe a better solution to have just single bass speaker, to avoid mismatching between two of them?
Hello! I think Bob's method is quite good and it was a game changer to me. Now i have different distances in both speakers and it sounds really good but....How do i get that dead center image that when i move my head it stays in the midle?! Should i increase the distance to the rear wall? side wall? Should i reduce the toe in??? grrrrrrrr
:))) thanks
Just move with fine displacements away from back wall with 4 feet aparted while start.follow the step shown in bobs video
bonjour ! possible in french subtitle ? in France we dont have a chanel like this . snif ....
I there and welcome! I wish I could. Creating subtitles is very difficult and expensive. The English ones are auto-generated. Perhaps one day!
Hey! Let me ask you , what would you buy between a Revox PR99 and an Akai 1000 PRO ? thanks!
No doubts....Revox!
Hi
Great video, but wanted to ask a question regarding lock down of the centre image,, if small movements to either speaker, be it forward/ backwards, tilt or angle, affect the preceved sound, at the listening position, why then after set-up, can you start leaning around and placing your head 2feet to the left or right, and the sound you hear doesn't change, ? Surely if you move to the left or right, it has the same effect as moving the speakers, ?
if you move from center, and create a New center, allbiit off center,, the locked image hasn't changed, you have, so how could you hear exactly the same image from a new location, ?
Regards Paul.
Hi Paul, yes, of course there is a small change if tilting your head but when you hit the special point where the two loudapeakers are perfectly matched, working in symbiosis with no delay or smearing that cohesion will be stronger and more present that when the speakers are misalligned and in that position the sound combines in perfect hatmory creating a solid image, locked in place that remains in that point regardless if you move around...I hope this was clear enough...:-)
@@anadialog hi,
So you're saying there is a change in sound when you tilt your head,
but you're also saying it should stay fixed where it is regardless, even if you move around.
That's confusing !
@@paulwibb.8944 It does go against logic, but under real-world applications, this effect does happen. I experience it every day with my system and it never ceases to amaze me. Another really fun result of getting the speakers totally locked in is if you listen with your eyes closed and someone walks across the room between you and the speakers - you can't tell! But if the speakers aren't right, you'll notice the person walking across in front of you immediately. Weird, but true.
@@bobrobbins5652
Hi Bob,
In a real world situation, the venue plays a huge part in how you hear the proformance,
eg open air/ theatre or local pub, and what you are saying rings true as I've been in all the mentioned venues, and as you move around you're quite aware of the sound staying Central to the stage, however as much as you try to replicate this at home, and I have achieved this to a large degree, with my speakers around 8 ft apart and as mentioned by you previously I get a 20 + foot Sound stage and central imaging to die for, but let's not forget we are listening to a stereo pair of speakers, which are not really a real world situation, but they are trying to create that illusion, so when you move closer to one or the other you most certainly can hear that one over the other. I haven't watched your video on setup yet, can I find it here on UA-cam ? Anyway thank you for your reply regards Paul.
I am saying that you will always have a difference in sound percenption. That is how we here. But when you properly lock the speakers they will tens to stay focused in a precise area instead of "following" you.
Hey buddy! Did you get a copy of the MFSL Marvin Gaye “What’s going on”. Fremer just reviewer it at Analog Planet. It is as good as they say, maybe better.
I hope so...I have other audiophile editions but they all sound like crap! Thanks for the suggestion!
What about near field? How far should they be from my ears?
I listen in near Field . Im about 1.6 m from speakers in 9 m room. Of course monitors. Sound is great. Not colored, without boomy bass with precise soundstage . Sound isn't attached to the speakers.
Good question, again it depends from the speakers and the room. The general rule is to create a triangle, you should match the distence that thete is between the speakers. Personally I do not like to be too close, you reduce the soundstage...
This is great advice for conventional speakers but you end up with a small sweet spot but with Ohm acoustics Walsh speakers which are omnidirectional in low to mid frequencies and directional and angled in for the highs the whole room is the sweet spot as such you can walk around your room and hear both speakers perfectly ,also they like to be positioned close to walls .Sangolli Technologie is the dealer in Italy they offer a free 120 day free home trial. They are not cheap but are a reasonable price for audiophile speakers. Zeos "Z review" rates the best speaker EVER. I was blown away when I got my pair.
Omnidirectional speakers have always intrigued me. I may contact Sangolli...thanks for that!
@@anadialog If you do don't try the 1000's unless you are using a subwoofer as they don't have a lot of bass or the dynamic range of the bigger ones . Forgot to mention the imaging has a reach out and touch it realism as the speakers seem to disappear.
my neck is hurting watching this guy.. it was interesting though
Agreed… I can’t do it anymore, too drawn out and slow redundant. All his videos are like this.
And of course…
Synergy
Room acoustics
They say speakers before sources
But what they mean there is synergy which in part is matching sound signatures which is not budget, but dynamics, range, PRAT, tonality.
So an ongoing set of research, experience, matching in any sequence you and your budget and interest level allows you. But you know all these already…
Getting the speakers tweeter to or very near ear height eliminates the need to tilt the speaker. Also, if you have a MTM speaker avoid tiling the speaker.
There is a serious problem to this approach, bass. If your room is too small, the long wall will leave horrible results with lower frequencies. Bass sound waves are large and need distance to be produce correctly. This method is only good in large rooms unless you don't care about bass. Now the long wall will do soundstage very nicely, but when you don't have the correct bass, is just doesn't impress. The solution to this is to have 2 subwoofers one in each front corner. That will give the bass sound wave enough distance to be fully realized.
Did you try the technique? Mark out where your current system is just in case and try this technique. Cost is nothing but time. I've done it and it makes a marked improvement. Then I added my dual subwoofers to round out the sub bass.
especially if u test an open buffle ... sure enough u will notice the differencies ..... just like idler wheel turntables sound ......
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Sadly my Wife has issued an embargo on movement of speakers within the marital home.
Several wives follow that protocol, mine as well! :-(
@@anadialog It is frustrating, isn't it - they love music, but hate looking at the equipment that allows them to listen to it.
Yes, actually they just don't get why spending so much koney and time to optimize the sound...in some cases they are probably right though! ;-)
Wow....I thought it was only my wife that thinks I should put it out in the garage....do (some) women not have the same level of music appreciation because of some deficiency in their hearing??
Please, someone do their PhD thesis on this.......
@@garyspence7949 Actually, women usually have superior hearing compared to men and they appreciate music very much. My former boss at an audio store had the theory that throughout our lives, women are taught and encouraged to reveal and express their emotions, where men are taught to suppress them. As a result, men get more of an emotional release when listening to music - that may be why music is more important to men.
It's way easier to find the low frequency sweet spot in your room. Just put speaker in the corner to wake room modes. Then move back and forth in the room when you find that most balanced spot. There is your listening position, boom
I think I can tell when it’s good because you get a really uncanny holographic effect but man , this fella must have the hearing of a bat ! Great video !
For most of us the music we listen to was recorded in a studio -...not live! Bob Robbins' method is SOLELY based upon a SINGLE live recording.Also you would need to move your speakers everytime you change the source/recording. This' method only works if you want to move your speakers every single time you listen to a new track. Stop wasting your time and just go with a Near Field listening environment.
Correct, as most mixing and mastering is done in near field with monitors at the console or on/in front of the desk. Preferably with speaker placement in the middle of the room, away from any walls.
Absolutely not true! Check the vid he made. In any case, I am experience a whole you level of quality with this method...
I've seen this argument from you on my You Tube video - the song was not recorded live , and when used as the tool it is for The "ARSP", it sets the speakers optimally for ALL TYPES of music. Once the speakers are set they don't need to be moved for different types of music or different songs - my speakers haven't moved for over 11 years!
As always interesting and usefull topics !
With my dinning room speakers positioning isnt a issue as they have 110 degree horizontal and 80 degree vertical coverage
Supposedly another secret to speaker position is to have your speakers .83 distance apart from each other from the distance the speaker is to your ear, so if your speakers are 7 feet apart then they should be 8 feet 5 inches away from your ear.
To me it made perfectly sensibility too
i have almost 5 feet up of the centered vocal
This is a big challenge in car audio
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Priorities for Hi Fi.
1. Room treatment - get rid of modes. Do it with bass traps, absorbers and diffusers. If you don't attend to this, nothing else you do can be effective.
2. Speaker design and placement. Speaker response can be equalised with products like Sonarworks. Don't attempt to use this to correct a room.
That's it. The electronic kit is all essentially perfect. You spend extra money on glitz and bragging rights only. And of course put the vinyl and analogue tape where they belong - in the nearest dumpster.
This process isn't used to "correct a room" - it is used to allow the speakers to work with the room as it is
I only listen to music with headphones so I'm totally immersed mentally in the music.
Headphones are great but cannot rival with speakers...not only for the soundstage and imaging but also for the ambience reverberation and space around the instruments...with headphones all this is artificial...
Do you posess any speakers. If so it's the openness of speakers that add ambience & give a more natural sound something I have discovered headphones can not replace natural openness of sound clamped to your head. Although my headphones are used when travelling or if the wife's watching TV I use speakers whenever I can.
Remember that the humidity also effect the sound.
You also have to have audiophile hearing. ( thats the ability to hear the differens between different speaker cables)
And no wax in the ears!
I developed such a precise hearing that I can tell you the serial number of your speakers just by listening to them.
@@ImpiantoFacile wow! Incredible.
I always attempt to reach a relatively low humidity.
The sound waves travels more accurately under these conditions.
@@Lasse3 well sound travel faster in high humidity. It also travel faster in high temperatures.
What is more accurate?
Did you actually use this method or are you just regurgitating something you read online?
What do you think?
OR,,,,, get a pair of polk SDAs and forget about the room . Those speakers will sound incredible in the crappiest of rooms . aside from that ,don't forget to 'condition the listener as well .
a joyous person will enjoy any level of speaker and gear quality .
Why don't you mention speaker distance from side walls?
True, it is rather obvious but, yes, its a good idea also to mention that. It depends a lot from the type of speaker but generally speaking it is always a good idea to have space around a speaker unless you want to deliberately enhance some frequencies.
@@anadialog The reason why I asked is because I'm unhappy with the sound of my setup. My left speaker is 1 metre from the left wall and my right speaker is 5 metres from the right wall.
I could change the whole living room around and place the speakers along the shorter wall and this would give me more symmetry.
Or try to put something at 1 meter from the free speaker!
@@anadialog Thanks so much I will give that a try.
Bob Robbins realy dose reset these other UA-camrs with what real " Hi Fi " platform .
All " Hi Fi " Lovers should listen to this man as he really dose clear the crap off the " Hi Fi platform were others have turned in to a debate .
All this DSP middleman garbage has distorted the path for new beginners .
This guy will will straighten out all that High Preached none sense and everything else back to Hi Fi s original state !
Spot on he is go check him out . Real " Hi Fi " restored Bob Robbins
I agree!
Thank you for your belief in me and what I do - much appreciated!
If that song is what "audiophiles" listen to, I'm glad that I'm not one! :-) I'll stick to what I listen to.
Not the best song, I agree, but it 8s simple and perfectly centered with good bass. That is the correct recipe for thos method.
Or using songs that you know well that have good dynamics, and spacing. Hence why Steely Dan is used when tuning a room. If you go to a lot of hifi shops a lot of times they are listening to the lamest music.
It's true the song will creep into your nightmares over time if used often enough - but it is an excellent tool for the setup process - I never listen to it except when I do sets.
Not a big secret at all.
Take the rule of thirds as a starting point, look at first reflection points (walls, doors, windows floor and even ceiling) and move speakers about as well as toe in and out.
As for bass, even a tile floor under carpet can pretty mess up your sound with bad placement. But a room shouldn't be sterile either.
This should get anybody started. Focus on reflections (mids & highs) and resonance (basicly bass).
What an even bigger surprise to me was, was the usage of a propper decoupling of the gear in an audio rack.
For me the rank angle and asymmetrical toe-in were great news! Decoupling? Raks? I agree. One of my first vids: ua-cam.com/video/UYMbi7v2pNU/v-deo.html
Do Not Face The Speaker at U....Turn Them Facing..... Face The Right Speaker To The Right....Than Face The Left Speaker To The Left.....The Receiver Should Be In Surround Sound.... Dolby Is Best....What To Get It In Possession To Bounce The Sound Off The Wall ...
Did you find the best spot , 5 years later?
No, but I changed speakers that have a different built that can’t use this feature.
@@anadialog cool
Close to wall as possible...or 30 feet into room
Why is it that none of you alleged audiophiles ever mention that the contour of human ears is arranged at about a 150 degree configuration? Why wouild companys like JBL recommend putting speakers in an equilateral( 60 degree ) configuration? I have my Def 45's arranged that way( 150) as I find it the only way( besides HPhones) to get full stereo dynamics-- imqging.
True but things in the world don't take into account how are ears are.
Loudspeaker companies give some reccomendations on their own products. This method presented here isn't for all speakers but I would give it a try before ditching it.
One of the Biggest Mistakes Is Placing It In the Every Day Way We Done It For 50 years.... Second Mistake is Putting Your Smart TV in a Inclosesure...The Worst Things U can do
THIEL + spica speakers were slanted
Are you related to the Vinyl Junkie?
Your mannerisms are so similar to his it's scary
Nope!
I don't have to do this for my Walsh Ohm speakers....
Lucky you!
Actually, you do - for best bass response and for midrange tonality - just not for image specificity
Have you got nasal polyps ????, my life was hell until i got a cure ( no steroids ) , if you do , get in touch , if not i apologise for bothering you , Oh ! , fantastic video's ............
No! Why do you ask? My nasal septum is deviated so I must breath mainly through my mouth unfortunately...plus I am allergic to dust...
@@anadialog sorry for being intrusive !, i just suspected that you had the same ailment as myself , and after about ten years of sheer hell i got a cure !, i thought that i might be able to help , all the very best , Matt from Scotland ...........
No problem! Thanks Matt!
I had nasal polyps developing over several years. My doctor prescribed steroids of increasing doses. Didn't work. Eventually, I couldn't smell. Got an operation. All is fine now!
@@cogitoergosumsc5717 Thats really really great , I know only to well the suffering that this condition can cause !, I hope the operation works long term ( not always a succes ) i use NEILMED ! can be got at most chemist shops ( the greeks used this thousands of years ago , a natural product that worked miricles for me , no steroids which i was prescribed for life !, ) Good Luck my friend !..............
Just wear your favorite headphones... no need for all the perfect specific speaker placement and far less wattage is needed to drive headphones verses "X" wattage speakers not to mention you will ALWAYS be in the sweet spot LOL
But unfortunately headphones do not recreate a true and faithful reproduction of sound for 1 main reason: sound in reality travels and bounces off the environment in which it is played and it does not reach immediately your ears. Headphones are more artificial whereas speakers are more natural. In any case both obviously remain artificial.
Ciao! Tutto bene?
Salve! Tutto bene, grazie! Tu? Come vanno le riparazioni?
@@anadialog sono strapieno di lavoro
We're chasing the unicorn at this point. I get it, there's a 'sweet' spot for people but this is the kind of shit audiophiles get meme'd for. Just enjoy your music...
5 mins into 14 min video and it didn't even start
DPOLS Dead points of live sound
Or just buy a Behringer deq2496 + microphone
What you're talking about is a mathematical formula room correction
Cool!
@@anadialog It's the exact opposite of mathematical - I don't measure anything when I do a set - our sense of hearing isn't based on measured distances.
This makes me think how the best calculation instruments available to us, our senses. Like, put a ball on a ramp and watch your senses knowing exactly when it will get to the end. Or hawks making logarithmic spirals to catch prey. Or jazz musicians. But its not to follow a formula or metronome like you couldn't do better by yourself , more accurate with our experience and capabilities, observation and creativity
Btw, thanks for this work both of you
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I can't tilt my speakers, I have way too much shit stacked on them. I compensate with excessive volume.
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