We're Wrong About Dust Collection
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
- Everything you've read about dust collection may be wrong... for you. Most articles about dust collection are written for semi-pro to industrial shops, assuming larger machines and big ports. But, when dealing with air ports under 4"... what's important changes.
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0:00 Intro
0:15 Volume v Pressure
2:00 Ducting Magic
3:50 Port Size
4:50 Shop Vac v Dust Collector
6:17 Speed Tests
9:30 Simulated Machine Tests
11:40 Best of Both Worlds
13:00 The Economic Answer - Навчання та стиль
Good video. It is food for thought, but I do have a few comments.
1. A Nitpick: At 1:54, the increase in volume for a large pipe grows exponentially, not because pi is involved in the equation, but because r squared is involved in the equation.
2. A dust collector like the ClearVue is designed to pull a large volume of air. Reduction of the pipe size not only reduces the volume of air but is bad for the machine. It is important to maintain the same volume. In my shop I use six-inch PVC to my drops and to my blast gates and only then reduce to at least two four-inch pipes. There is still enough volume to include a 2 inch pipe as well, but it remains to be seen whether the pressure would be adequate.
3. The point of dust collection is to remove the fine dust from the air ASAP. Whether or not a vac can do that depends on the vac's filter. I doubt that the vac pictured will filter out the fine dust and one that would (HEPA), would probably clog.
4. In woodturning, we face two challenges. Woodchips which are heavy enough to fall to the floor and fine dust (especially when sanding). I have a large collector for fine dust and a floor sweep for the larger shavings. I also wear a mask and have filtration unit over my lathe. Dust in the lungs is no joke.
The inconvenient truth is that you simply can't get good dust collection with small ports. Just because a shop-vac performs better with a small port than a big dust collector does with the same small port, doesn't mean either one is adequate. The acid test is to monitor air quality during tool and after tool use. That's the only thing that will tell you if your dust collection is working.
Truth. Most of those tools aren’t designed for dust collection at all. The port is a check the box after thought put in the cheapest place.
But they’re the tools many have. Just trying to help folks do the best they can with them.
Thank you. Both good points. I'm your neophyte audience on this. In my case, I need to also be somewhat mobile AND flexible on exhaust/ collection, as I set up in my patio room (momma hates dusting, already)!). I only have a shop vac to work with. So I'm down to thinking: Contain, Capture & Collect. Contain everything early a.m.a.p. Capture dust/ particulates with high-volumn cfm. Collect larger shavings separately. Thoughts appreciated. -mc
Having done shopvac dust collection for years (with an inductive automatic switch) I can say for certain that dust collection works. That was a strange comment imho
I’ve only once had a big space for a shop and today as in the past I have a small space to work from. As a professional any dust collection is a bonus and the shopvac performs well.
Is it 100? Nope. While I don’t know what percent the efficiency it actually is, MY efficiency goes way up when everything isn’t plastered with dust from the biggest polluter: the tablesaw. The lathe and compound miter saw are fairly well contained, though long runs of cutoffs benefit from switching out the hose.
The tablesaw is night-and-day.
I’m going to pick up a cyclone head for a pail, though. I can deal with a tad more dust with the time savings of not spending 10 minutes knocking out the filter.
Nevertheless, small port dust collection beats the heck out of no dust collection.
@@fishhuntadventure Are you measuring air quality, or are you going by visible dust?
@@fishhuntadventure : It's good that your productivity goes up when your workshop is cleaner... you will need to be able to get through all the work before the poor air quality ends your life early, and very unpleasantly. My wife has COPD, (no, she has not ever smoked), she cannot go anywhere without her inhaler, (Try going to a tennis tournament with an uncontrollable cough!), her enjoyment of life is diminished. In my world @trevorlambert4226 is bang on target with his "strange comment".
You cannot put a Bandaid on your lungs!
Anecdotally I started in a garage shop probably very comparable to most your viewers. When I upgraded my lunchbox planer, 15 amp / 110 table saw and my 6” jointer from a shop vac to a 2hp dust collector, my dust collection and tool performance both increased tremendously (particularly the planer). I would highly recommend a dust collector as an initial shop purchase. I also recommend getting away from a shop vac and getting a dust extractor for your sanders in short order. Like before you buy a billion clamps or commercial quality tools.
That sounds a lot like how I started too
This video deserves way more views than it has. Great job explains this in simple terms. A good straightforward answer on static pressure and flow is something that is missing in almost all videos and articles on dust collection.
I literally spent days trying to understand the ins and outs of dust collection in order to make an informed decision on what to do in my shop. I wish I would have found this video in the beginning! This is hands down the best video on this topic out there! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and the results of your measurements!
Thanks! I've got couple of other videos on dust collection out there too
Wow, am I glad I watched this video ! My shop is small and all of my tools have 2 inch dust ports and there is no reason for me to spend big bucks on a system that would not have been appropriate for the tools I use. Really great information and very helpful. I use a Dewalt stealth sonic vacuum and it seems to work pretty well on the tools in my shop, so I'm glad I didn't just waste money on a system only to find out it would not have been of much benefit. I guess that's why I'm a subscriber ! Cheers from Utah. Two thumbs up on this video !
I super appreciate the feedback. Always good to know what I’m making is helpful for folks 😊 sounds like you’re on the right track with your dust collection! No need to worry about upgrading it until/if you get some bigger tools with bigger ports. You’re probably already collecting bout as well as could be expected
I just rearranged my shop, and was trying to decide on ports /gates along the 6" pipe for the smaller ported tools. Your timing is impeccable! Love my 6hp Ridgid; now I need to design an easy to swap header.
Great vids, keep them coming.
Glad I could help! I've also got a video "common dust collection mistakes" that goes moreso into setting up system and running pipe. Might be helpful.
The whole point of the Pentz designed system is to accomplish the minimum 1000cfm at the tool necessary to insure that the finest microscopic dust that you cannot see is captured at the tool before it can escape into the air you are breathing. NONE of these smaller alternatives described here can do that.
This entire discussion about these sub 5 hp collectors can best be described as pertaining to wood chip collection because that is what these smaller systems can accomplish. You are still breathing the fine, cancer causing wood dust that your smaller tools create even though these smaller collectors appear to the naked eye to be doing a good job for you.
The single most important take away from Bill Pentz' work is "1000 cfm at the tool". That large 5hp, 16 inch impeller ClearVue system typically yields >1500cfm at the tool to a 6 inch port or to 2 four inch ports simultaneously.
I think I've learned more from this dust video than any other
pi is constant, it's the radius squared part responsible for the quick area growth of larger circles. 2 cool things: math and youcanmakethistoo (:
🤦♂️🤣 in my head saying and even reviewing this I was like “I know I’m so right and wrong about this but my brain ain’t braining right..” but yeah, it’s that exponent that makes it exponential 😂😂 thanks!
@@YouCanMakeThisToo Furthermore, "exponential growth" generally refers to something where the variable you control is _in_ the exponent (like time). Something like investment growth or population growth, where you have: Initial * (rate)^X, where X is the number of cycles, rate is a fraction (5% = 1.05). For example you start with 10 squirrels, each having 2 babies per year (rate = 2), so after 5 years you have 10*2*2*2*2*2. Assuming immortal squirrels that reproduce asexually, of course. With area and volume, you have X^2 or X^3, where the exponent is fixed, and you control the base. In that case we say something "grows with the square" or similar. At least, that's how I understand it.
Very useful and timely! Been wondering just what you covered and the information is very helpful! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Finally. A woodworking video that doesn’t reject the use of math and data, talk down to the viewer, or where the maker doesn’t try to be self-deprecating with a title like “No Math Was Used to Make This Table” (yes, that’s a video posted in the last couple days by a well-known content creator).
I do what I can man.
Great study, some really valuable information here to newer woodworkers and experienced alike. One small correction - 180% "more" airflow would equate to 280% of the airflow of whatever you are comparing to, so what you actually meant was 80% "more" flow, or 180% of the same flow.
I misspoke there. Pretty proud of myself that was the only good considering all the numbers. That and the dumb pi instead of square mix up.
@@YouCanMakeThisToo We will just pretend that didn't happen lol. Great content, you've got a new sub :) keep up the awesome work!
Thanks! Super appreciate that
Really interesting data you've collected here. It's given me a lot to think about. Maybe I'll just hang onto my shop vac a bit longer until I start up-sizing my tools. Thanks for sharing!
If your tools don’t have 4” ports that’s probably you’re best route!
Most big shop vaccuums are somewhere close to 13 amps. You might be able to find a 15 amp model. A 15 amp commercially designed vacuum with move a huge amount of air. That's a 1 horsepower motor. The other thing, you can buy an additional shop vacuum for $30 and put a bag in it for $5. The bag completely prevents any need from ever cleaning or replacing the filter, then you can use 2 vacuums on one piece of equipment, to cover different parts of the equipment. For example, an overhead arm guard can have a dust port on a table saw, then you can also hook a vacuum to the main dust port under the blade. Or on any tool or saw, you can have a box behind the tool with a dust port, so you cover any stray dust that blows past the factory shroud. Having two 13 amp vacuums is still only $60 for 2 used vacuums. Buying a real large 1.5 horsepower dust extractor is great, but it doesn't come with a proper cartridge filter, and to setup all the hoses, it's basically a permanent installation, and the cost of the hoses and fittings, it's going to end up costing 4 times what it would cost for portable shop vacuums? I think building a "cyclone" or buying a cyclone to capture dust, makes a shop vacuum a very viable option.
Awesome video! I'm working on a dust collection video myself and I am just going to tell people to watch yours for all the science, lol. Thanks!
Haha thanks man! I've got another one with far more practical advice on actual set up and stuff. I'm sure you're all over it but there may be some good nuggets in that one for you to steal for your video 🤣🤣 ua-cam.com/video/8pCCdx33qQg/v-deo.html
"IMPRESSIVE!" Made me a follower. Studied what was available when I built my dust collection system many years ago. Even got my own "Annie". There is another factor involved when not making money with my shop... Cost of operation. Small tools take less watts of power and unless I'm running a big machine> Smaller is better. Had an "Oh Dah" moment when selling my 110 delta dust collector. Realized cleaning the upper bags is equally important to air flow. Looking forward to more of your "Nerdy" Wisdom!"
All so true! And yep, filter cleaning would've definitely been a worth add since I was talking about air flow. You can only pull as much as you can push out and clogged filters don't help
One helpful test would be to have the airflow meter some distance away from the inlet port. Where I first really noticed the need for a HVLP dust collector was trying to do dust collection on my lathe. Shopvacs are basically useless for this because you're trying to pull flying chips out of the air with a big hood. True dust collectors move so much air they can pull chips out of the air some distance from the inlet.
Great video. At first didn’t like your style but I just listened and I think you explained this subject better than anyone else. Thank you.
I appreciate you sticking around even if it wasn't your style at first. Honestly not sure if the intro is my style. I keep playing around with different intro types to see if anything works better.
Thanks a lot. You answered all my questions on choosing the right dust collection system for my shop, and saved me a lot of money because now I know that I have the right system for me, and I don´t have to buy a new one.
Great news! Glad I could help
Thank you for a very practical test of the options. As a DIY/Hobby shop, all of my tools are 2 1/2" or smaller, except for the thickness planer. I was seriously considering the Dustright, but I am glad I held off. I may just replace my 23 year old Crafstman shop vac with something a little less "screamy".
Perfect! Another shop vac will serve you well. Glad to confirm you made the right call
Caughted that SNL Justin&Andy ref at 09:50, just a silly smile on my end.
🤣🤣
One of the best videos I've seen in a while! Thanks!
Thanks!
Fantastic testing, Caleb! Thanks a bunch! 😃
I was using a small vacuum cleaner as shop vac, but it's 110v and most outlets are 220v here, so... 😬
Either way, now I've got a much bigger one and a good plastic gallon for the cyclone... (I was using plastic buckets, but their cover used to break in one week!) So I think it's going to work much better now. 😬
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks! That’s great man, there’s lots of ways to skin the cat. Most important is just that you’re trying to catch it at the tool. Take care!
great job on the video man!
Thanks man!
The Camvac high pressure system is one of my favorite buys. Never thought I’d say that about anything relating to dust collection. Handles large and small hoses, large and small machines. Very versatile, I’ll never go back to a low pressure system. It requires 220v but worth it if you can’t swing it
I’d never heard of it till the comments on this video. It sounds great
@@YouCanMakeThisToo I really can’t say enough about it. I’m adding a cyclone to it very soon and that’ll be my favorite upgrade next to a shelix for the planer
Great video. Don’t have a collector yet but building a shop in a few months. Glad I saw this. Thx
Happy to help!
Excellent video and essentially what I've concluded after a year of research! You indicate that Onieda is the only option in high pressure low volume extractors. While I'd love to have a Supercell, Record Power offers the Camvac which is another high pressure/low volume type of collector. They appear to be not as good at final filtration vs. the Oneida Supercells, but that can be upgraded and they are far lower cost than the Supercell.
Someone else mentioned the Camvac, that's new to me but I checked it out. Definitely very interesting. And those really "high pressure HIGH volume" systems. High pressure low volume would be the shop vacs.
The CamVac dust extractor can be used with a Oneida Super Dust Deputy cyclone and the three 2.5" exhaust ports funneled into a 4" line which is then exhausted into a Wynn Environmental filter plenum box using Gamma Seal bucket lids. It's basically just like everyone does with the Harbor Freight dust collector motor and blower except use the CamVac instead. You can get the same performance as the Oneida Supercell except much more filter surface area. It take a little MacGyver-ing but at less than 1/2 the cost of a Supercell It's definitely worth it.
I have the same baby bandsaw and Rockler dust collector. I'm definitely using the shop vac for that guy now and saving the 750 for the bigger tools. Thanks Caleb!
Perfect, glad to hear I was able give actionable information 😊
I liked the video.
In short and to summarize the basics here without the need of math, special gadgets etc.
Our tools for a "modest" shop come with, pre-installed dust collection ports.
Now, why is that? Hmmm.
My Dewalt tablesaw for example, comes with a 2.25" port. Why? Why not a big ol 4" or 6" port? Because it is sized for EXACTLY what is required.
My Dewalt chop saw and benchtop bandsaw. They come with smaller ports. Why? Hmmm.
My Dewalt benchtop planer. Again, comes with a standard 4" port....Well, why is that? Why is the planer larger than the tablesaw etc?
Well. What is it that these individual tools are doing? What type of "dust" is being created? Is it even "dust" or is it actually "chips"?
Hmmm.
So, the question isn't really about air volume, pressure etc etc etc.
It's about the TYPE of debris being removed.
Period. End of story.
My bandsaw isn't removing "chip", I'm cutting a fine line, therefore the debris is "dust".
Tablesaw = Dust (aside from the occasional "chip".
Miter saw = Dust.
Planer = CHIPS.
So, large dust vacuums should actually be renamed to "chip" vacuums cause THAT is what they are geared for and purpose. Absolutely, they suck up "dust" as well....but that isn't their actual intent.
So...in short. Small port...use a Shop Vac.
Large port, use a "chip" vac.
Simple. Easy. No math required and no "Annie" required.
Ehhh... partly. I'd agree it can be summed up with "if it's got a shop vac sized port, use a shop vac."
That doesn't mean it's what the tool actually needs to properly collect. I've owned a planer with a 2.5" port, it was stupid and only served to clog the thing faster than just letting it blow freely.
Many of these budget tools that have dust ports are NOT designed for dust collection, the port is an after thought.. often poorly located and horribly undersized.
A budget 10" table saw with a 2" dust port makes the exact same dust as my 10" cabinet saw with a 4" port with internal shroud to focus the air at the blade, and over blade collection.
And that's not my opinion or feelings, that was a big insight from spending 90 minutes talking to the general manager of a big dust collection company. The dust collection on most modest tools is a check the box after thought put in the cheapest location sized for what people probably have in their garages (shop vacs) - not what the tool needs.
Apologies if somewhere I made it seem anyone needs an anemometer.. nobody does. I do, to do videos the way I like because I'm big on "show me, don't tell me" and without a way to capture facts I'm just another yahoo with zero credibility saying what's "common sense" to me (you'd be surprised how much "common sense" is just uninformed intuition that $30 of TMDE can disprove). Instead I can present the data that supports my assertions and research and if you disagree.. you can explain how my data doesn't line up with my assertions.
Excellent information! I will stay with my shop vac and dust separater.
Sounds perfect 👍
Thank you so much for getting into the concepts, factors & math behind successful airflow for a given situation (ie volume X partical). I learned more from your video than the last 30 I've watched. Thank you. I relate to the way you think. -mc
Thanks so much! There's a small group that hate the detail and math I go into on this subject... so it's always encouraging to hear there's folks that relate to how I think and would want information presented. Glad it helped!
Brilliant, thanks a lot for the research and demo👌
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Thanks for a great video 🙂
Into the equation of dust collectors. Atmosperic pressure is 14.7 PSI. 1 BAR. The max vacuum you can pull is 0 PSi. IE zero Bar. This is physics & there is no machine that can pull more suction/vacuum than Zero .. Otherwise I guess you get a black hole. So the max pressure you can get at the end of your hose is 14.7 PSI Atmospheric, which is the air getting pushed down your hose to refill the vacuum created by your dust collector. BUT. To achieve this 14.7 PSI you would have to pull a complete 0 PSI Vacuum. Note all our gauges are set to read 0 at 14.7 PSI our atmospheric pressure. My thought is if you want meaningful data on atmospheric pressure/flow going down your hose, we should be taking vacuum readings in the plenum chamber of the vacuum machine. I have a sneaky feeling this is why the camvac works well.
That makes sense, thanks for sharing. I'm sure the manufacturers posting static pressure readings are doing that or even better to test their machines. For my purposes I'm happy to take their stats as facts.
I moved my woodshop to the middle of my
Backyard. No Hoses, No pumps, No noise. I Just let nature reclaim back its dust. It’s a beautiful sight to witness.
That's a dream. None of my clients would be willing to pay for how long projects would take me if I did that though.
Love the chaotic energy in your video 🤣🤣🤣
Haha thanks! Didn’t mean for it to come out that way, but my new camera guy is great at capturing what being in the shop with me is like 🤣
Recently upgraded from a job site table saw to a Sawstop PCS 1.75 and it never dawned on me the Ridgid + dust separator I use wouldn't do anything for dust collection on the new Sawstop. I found out the hard way I ended up purchasing a jet 1hp unit with the canister like your rockler. Also got the dust collection blade guard , works amazing now after another chunk of change.
Congrats on the upgrade! But yeah.. realizing one upgrade forces another is a kind of bittersweet 🤣.
I’ve got the over arm dust guard too, it’s amazing!
exactly what is was looking for. Thanks!!!
Great, thanks for watching!
Thermal Engineer here (that studies airflow for a living)... Good video. Measurement tools are always the best way to find out what works best for you. Write down the numbers and reference them when you have an issue in the future. It will help you find a clog in your hose (sticks) and leaks. I can add more "color" to your conversation about getting both pressure and volume. Impellers are designed for one or the other so if you only have a one impeller system, you have to pick. The solution is to put two impellers in series or parallel. Two in parallel will increase volume but not pressure where as 2 in series will improve pressure, not volume. You can actually do this on your own by hooking two dust collectors in series or two shopvacs in parallel. It isn't going to work as well as the bigger pricier units that you named that have multiple fans but you can play with it and sometimes get something that works better for your setup. All shopvacs and dust collectors are general purpose with a "one size fits all" approach. That is the best you can do when buying off-the-shelf products. Although somewhat red-neck, adding multiple systems together can shock you on the performance.
On a complete side note (and me just being a jerk)... your deltas were incorrectly stated (differences between the two.) You made statements like "180% improvement" but the first 100% you don't count when comparing. It was "80% improvement". 🙂
Also increasing radius doesn't make volume grow exponentially because of pi, but because of r^2. That one got me too
Awesome video !😊
Thanks! 😊
bravo! argomento sempre interessante e il tuo approfondimento è stato chiaro e per niente dispersivo come altri che ho visto sull'argomento!
As always, good stuff.
Thanks!
Man I love pie, marionberry and pumpkin are my favorite. Now I want a piece, thanks a lot man.
🤣🤣🤣
Really like the video. One question though, wouldn't the length of the pipe also have something to do with the cfm? From the Rockler you attached the smaller hose to the larger hose, so it had a longer distance to suck through. Where when you hooked it up to the shop vac, it was just the shorter hose.
I've had this discussion with multiple people over the years and no one seems to believe me. Using LAARGE dust collection systems with small machines is NOT a good idea.... or at least with machines that have small ports.
As an example, my old Bosch PTS 10 table saw has only 35 mm ports and my two bag 4 HP dust collector with 160 mm hoses is practically useless for this. When I scale down the hoses to fit the 35 mm ports... practically ALL suction is gone!
Attaching a shop vac.... it works like a charm.
Great info, thx
You bet!
Great video! So basically, if you are a small shop using smaller tools with ~2" openings, shop vac will outperform bigger dust collectors. And the inverse is true, ie, once you graduate to bigger 4" equipment, it's time to upgrade to bigger 4" dust collectors as well. Good to know I can just save my money for now, and what I currently have is about the best I can expect at this point.
Yep. And don’t throw out that shop vac when you get your first 4” tool and dust collector. Keep it for the small ports and sander until you get an extractor.
@@YouCanMakeThisToo I just picked up the Oneida low pro tonight to hook up to the ship vac. Hopefully, it will make this little setup even better. Got me a project for a shop vac + separator cart for the weekend.
*Great video*! Thank you so much. As an propulsion systems engineer who designs jet engines, I deal with these kind of numbers everyday. So you would think that I would just know intuitively which is the right type of dust collection for the shop I am going to build when I retire later this year, but you would be wrong. Well, I guess I did know somethings, like all the basic physics of the impact of reduced diameter, higher wall friction, bends and turns, and longer runs have on total air flow (because after 40 years designing jet and rocket engines my bosses have yet to come to me and ask if perhaps I wouldn't be happier in a job I was actually good at).
amatuer-ish
So _now_ my plan, thanks to this video, is to go with a higher quality shop vac, like the new very quiet DeWalt StealthSonic, for long term dust collection. And in the future if I want to upgrade, it would just be to get a second shop vac/dust separator and build it into the workbench between the router table and miter saw so I didn't have to fuss with hooking up the portable one to the dust port in the front of the workbench that connects to the hoses and pipes built in to the workbench going to those two tools.
Good overview of the challenges of piping a system, large or small. What it comes down to me is... is the airflow good enough at the end device, even with the hose reduction restrictions placed upon it.
I have a 1250 CFM system with 6" main run to shop central location, then split to two 4" runs to my machines (each 4" run has a couple blast gates and y-connectors used to select the desired device). All of that being hard pipe and only the last ~4' being flex. Only my router table has a further reduction to two 2.5" hoses (fence and dust box via a y-splitter). It may not be optimal and greatly reduced from the maximum the collector produces, but does the job and pulls enough air to keep up with what I cut.
I plan to still purchase a portable extractor (like a Festool) for hand sanding and routing... they need the extra high volume that my main collector just can't provide when reduced via longer/smaller hose connections.
You're right. Ultimately it is just do you have enough airflow at the tool. Sounds like you've got a solid setup. I had the same experience with my router table hooked up to my big collector. It split into two 2.5" ports, but they were short and fortunately I was already drawing so much air that the loss didn't really hurt performance at all.
Definitely can't beat an extractor for hand held tool use though, especially sanding.
step 1, cut a hole in the box...ha, high five my man✋...nice insertion of lols into an excellently informative vid.
Thanks man! As soon as I said it, I realized I said it, and had to do it 🤣🤣🤣
Intro is lovely 😂
Thanks! 🤣
That rotating vein anemometer should not be used with small diameter ducts. Minimum would be 6". the diameter of the vein area is much smaller and effectively reduces the measured area. Use a thermal anemometer.
If someone wants to send me one, I'll use it. Otherwise, I don't think any accuracy issues are significant enough to change the results of anything I'm doing. I'd be really surprised if my margin of error is high enough to change the recommendations
Very interesting, I gotta go do some tests (and maybe make a 3d printed in line holder for my Annie !)
Go for it!
Is a shop-vac going to be powerful enough to set up in a central/permanent location and run thin pipes around to the machines, or is the length of hose pretty limited?
Another difference I've discovered is in the duty cycle. For example, running a 12 hour CNC carve might be more suitable for proper dust collectors. I don't believe my shop-vac will last long if I regularly ask it to run for such long sessions.
Ooh, good point. If you’re often running carves that long though it probably makes sense to have a better suited (and quieter) system.
Hey Caleb, fantastic video! Would you happen to have your results in spreadsheet form to help my brain process all this data? Love your experiments and conclusions, well done.
Not at the moment.. but I still have my paper. If I feel froggy later I’ll put it in a pinned comment or something and respond back to you.
The benefit of tickler’s hose is when it’s collapsed, it compresses a lot to become a smoother hose.
Yep, love that expanding hose! It's great for vacuuming my shop floor
I had the "better" one I bought from Harbor Freight a couple years back but it "sucked" but didn't... My RIGID vac like you feature is what works great for my shop.
It's crazy how that works
Snl skit about a hole in a box lol. 😂 great info enjoyed the video!!
Glad you enjoyed
The proof is in the pudding. None of this "I feel like..." stuff. well done, Caleb. Interesting results, too. It demonstrated your facts perfectly.
I have the same Ridgid vacuum that I use with a Dustopper. When I bought my "annie", I measured 188 cfm at the inlet on the vacuum. With the Dustopper and the stock hose, I got about 80 cfm at the end of the hose. Not adequate for my Ridgid R4512 table saw with the cabinet and 4" outlet. I bought the Dust Right 750 a couple of years ago (when it was $300 cheaper) and I get the same numbers you got, i.e. 500 cfm at the inlet on the dust collector and => 400 cfm at the end of the hose. Works much better. It really works great on my router table which has a dust collection port on the fence and a dust box underneath. Routers can be a real mess but I now make more mess cutting a dowel with a flush cut saw.
Thanks! It was fun doing this. Couldn’t wait to share once I finally understood how it all works together.
Funny that you have the same dust right and shop vac, they’re solid machines! Glad you got it figured out for shop, and fun to confirm you had the same observations
Thanks for another great video! You referred me to this one, from your older dust collection video, but this was the first I’d seen of yours!
With a Dust Deputy 2.5 going into a 6HP shop vac and bag, do you think it would make sense to put a HEPA filter in the shop vac? Do they restrict CFM? What about just venting the shop vac to the outside? Thanks!
A HEPA will restrict flow… but only then is the system actually doing what you want it to - remove harmful particles.
Venting to the the outside is definitely an option and will help flow.
@@YouCanMakeThisToo: So sounds like venting outside and the standard filter is a good option? My neighbors aren’t RIGHT next to me, but would I be harming them?
The real question for me is what to use on my 2.5 inch collection port on my CNC. I might be able to upgrade it to larger port later but for now the dust collector is so quiet compared to the shop vac.
If you're stepping down a 4" hose right at the dust shoe then you may not be seeing too much loss. If you've got a 2.5" hose on that dust collector then you're losing most of your air.
That said.. if you're getting enough air to clear out the debris and pick up everything, then stick with what's working. No sense inconveniencing yourself to go from enough air, to more than enough air.. and not see any difference in performance.
It’s a bit unfair to add the long shop vac hose to the end of the long 4” flex hose. You’d get a more comparable result placing a 2-½” reducing adapter at the end of the 4” flex hose.
That would've been the better way to test it
Only issue with the supercell is the cost. I mean I guess if you are limited on space and need best of both worlds you could use it but honestly I think best bang for the buck is a 12 gallon shop vac system with cyclone separator for smaller tools and the harbor freight 2hp 70 gallon system for larger 4 to 5" connections.
Great video with some good numbers! I'd be interested to know what the numbers would be for adapting down from the larger diameter to the smaller diameter at the tool, just a step down from the big hose to the tool, no length of smaller hose.
That's a good question, without the run it wouldn't have as bad an impact
"Step 1 cut a hole in a box" I see what you did there.
🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
The first UA-cam woodworker, whose second job is being a physicist at MIT.
Haha, if only. I do love me some Walter Lewin though.
Have you ever seen or tested the cam vac systems with dual or triple motors?
I haven’t
You can almost imagine the solution.... would you _ever_ attach a huge dust collection hose to your disc sander?
You all know how the suction is at the end of the small diameter hose from the shop vac when you let it suck at you hand... it's the vacuum it creates that makes it great for small machines.
That vacuum becomes completely useless if you use it for large machines, like planers or drum sanders... and vice versa.
I'm looking into a dust collection system.
I have a rigid vac.
Looking into the harbor freight collector.
I'm a visual learner, so if you had flow charts next to the unit you were talking about would help me.
Unfortunately I can’t edit videos after their posted. Maybe write it down as I talk through them?
ProTip: there's nothing stopping you from hooking up two shopvacs behind a dust separator for more power.
Interesting.. I don't know enough about fluid mechanics to know how well that'd work.. if it'd actually make a difference.
So my past several days of research was just blown up by this video 😂. All of my tools have 2.5” ports and I’ve tried my Ridgid shop vac with HEPA filter and bag + dust stopper pro and it just seems like it’s not sufficient for things like my table saw. My assumption is the dust stopper is drastically reducing cfm here (I’m looking into getting an “Annie” to test the differences with and without the HEPA bag, dust stopper etc).
The other thing I’ve been trying to accomplish is a solution for having to constantly move the shop vac hose from tool to tool when working on projects - so I’ve designed a small 2.5” ducting run around my mobile 4’x4’ work table with blast gates so I can hook up multiple tools at a time and just open the blast gates one at a time.
I was thinking that even with a cfm loss, starting out with a harbor freight 2hp collector with cyclone dust separator would be good initial starting point to hook my work table up to. Do you think a shop vac still might be the better solution here?
Thanks for the super informative video!
Additionally, the camvac is equivalent to a Oneida supercell (with accessory hepa filters)
1680 Canadian dollars, 30% less for Americans with the US dollar
Haven’t heard of those before. Thanks for sharing!
It’s a natural progression at least it was for me. You start with a shop vac $ then if you stick with it you end up getting an extractor$$$ then you finally go for the dust collector $$$$$
Decibel measurements would be nice as well.
Thanks for the vid! To be completely accurate, get/make an adaptor for Annie that matches her input diameter. In other words, on the hoses that are smaller than her opening, you need to neck back up to get accurate readings. If you don't, there is a mechanical loss due to pulling air across only a part of Annies blades. Me thinks 🤔
To help offset that I set it to Max hold and slowly moved them around.. so I’d get the max possible airspeed. And most importantly did all of them that way.
Ain’t research paper accurate, but I’d bet it’s 95% accurate or better, plenty for the purposes of this video.
Ha! Shame on me. You corrected for this further into the vidja! Sorry for the false alarm and thanks for the vid!
No worries! I appreciate the follow up 😊
I’m stuck between the shop vac and dust right collector. Most of my tools are 2.5 inch port compact tools in a garage workshop. I’m about to buy a drum sander. It looks like I may have to run two systems.
That would be the most affordable way with just one high volume demanding tool
You kept my attention at PIE - cherry I hope - LOL, my bad you meant Pi - mathematical equations. Informative - thanks Caleb. Stay safe.
Oh don’t tease me like that. It is about that time of year!
Thank you although, with my size shop I already came to the conclusion of staying with my shop vac
Do what works
Record Power Camvac dual and triple motors do the same. They cover smaller machines and larger machines with 4” ports. The power and extraction is superb for both types of tools and machines and at a reasonable price. Not sure however if available in the US yet? As the product is manufactured in the UK. But big in Europe.
A few other folks have mentioned that, it's new to me until folks have been commenting about it. Not sure it's available in the US.
It is, there are finally a couple North American vendors. Some of the best money I’ve spent. They are unbelievable
So I’m trying to decide between a shop vac/separator vs a dust extractor. The extractors seem great for sanders but can I get the same results with a shop vac setup? 🤔
Oneida makes a scaled down separator for shop vacs that works really well
Where did you get that apron?
Leatherbydragonfly.com
Thanks for the video Caleb! Very informative
I think your math is off though: 5551 is 80% more than 3130 not 180% more. You later correctly say that it's almost 2x. 180% more would be almost 3x
Yeah, I should have said "180% of" instead of more. Thanks for the catch. Pretty impressed with myself I only slipped once with all those numbers :D
Sorry I missed most of this. Fell asleep. I'm not sure why you thought it was a college course.
It's okay, there's no final exam or grade here. You can even walk out of class whenever you want.
All going well I should be setting up my onefinity 4x4 this week, and I have sort of dived into dust collection stuff before but i'm not even sure how much money I can put in yet cause I won't know until I sort import costs...
This makes me think my henry for now is going to be good enough though, I was kinda worried I wouldn't have enough suction until I had the smallest decent dust collector I could stretch to which is the axeminster £800 model with the tapered cyclone tube thingy I can't remember the name off.
The oneida basic is like 2k? usd, so after currency to uk sterling + import rip offs thats like 4k gbp... thats a long long way away for me.
Interesting video. I bought a few reducing fittings to use my dust collector on a small bandsaw and 2 sanders. Pretty sure i wasted my money. Ibwish rockler didnt even sell those adaptors for dustrite system.
It's better than nothing..ish.
That Super cell is much more expensive but has the bells and whistles.
It has some really nice features
I get that the dust collector doesn’t pull as much air when restricted down, but what if you had a Y section and hooked up two 1 3/4”. Would you maintain the 4% from both outlets at the same time? My issue is I’m running many 1 3/4” tools simultaneously and wondering the best way to extract dust without having a shop vac on each individual one.
Many thanks
I really don’t know. My GUESS is for each split you’d see a reduction at the tool. My reasoning is a reduction in flow causes an increase in pressure.. that pressure helps preserve flow. If you’re cutting volume and then necking down.. you’ll have a lower pressure increase due to lower volume getting constricted, which is gonna cause more loss.
This is some really good info. I have been saving to get the Dust Right 1250, but I was also wondering if I should save even more and get one of the Oneida collectors which would require a 220 outlet, and the Rockler is only 110. Lots to think about now
If you’ve still got a lot of small ports the Oneida would serve you better. Won’t notice much difference with the dust right on anything under 4”.
@YouCanMakeThisToo my larger tools such as tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, and planer are 4 inch so I was thinking the dust collector for them and a shop vac for mitresaw and other smaller tools ??
Perfect. There’s a reason I have 6 various vacs in the shop. But that is excessive 🤣
@@YouCanMakeThisToo Thanks for replying and giving feedback. Much appreciated
Thanks for the video. I have a question. I have 3 shop vacs, different sizes and ages. I don't have a fancy tester. Is there a way to tell which vac is going to work the best in my shop without a tester?
Do I just go by the horsepower? Gallon size?
HP would be a decent indicator.. but it’s no secret that brands play funny games with HP ratings.
A not crazy scientific, but simple and cheap test would be with the same hose.. make a pile of sawdust and starting far away, see how close you have to get to start sucking up dust. The farthest away one will have the best airflow.
And new filters go a LONG way in keeping your airflow up. The motor can only draw as much air as it can push out.
@@YouCanMakeThisToo THANKS, I'm going to try that. One is so old I can't find any information on it so this test will help a lot 😁.
A lot of meaningless arithmetic. Finally, at 10:30 he mentioned THE key parameter for pneumatic conveying: velocity at the pickup point. CFM is only important for 2 reasons: 1) you have to have enough air moving to furnish the energy needed to accelerate and convey the material, 2) on some machines you need enough volume to sweep the open area with enough face velocity to cause the material to be captured in the air flow.
These systems are never anywhere near the carrying capacity of the air flow even on something like a large planer or jointer so worrying about pressure drop isn't necessary. I very successfully control dust nearly 100% on my 14" bandsaw with a 4" connection to the cabinet with a 2 1/2" line tee'd off the 4" run to a point right under the table.
Pickup velocity for sawdust and small wood chips is less than 2500 feet per minute. Since these are vacuum systems, the lowest velocity is at the end of the hose; velo increases because the air is expanding as it gets to the motive device due to the pressure decreasing. So, in a 1 3/4" diameter hose, you only need 42 cfm to achieve pickup. 2 1/4: 69 cfm, 4": 218cfm and 6" 490 cfm. Even the cheapest dust collectors (I have one) move over 400 cfm at 4-5 in W.C. My bigger Delta does ~700@ 6.5" W.C. At 3000 ft/min the pressure drop per hundred feet of 4" corrugated hose is a bit over an inch if the hose is not kinked. So stressing out over duct/hose lengths, elbows, etc is useless.
That is until you need a lot of volume to capture dust off of a machine that flings the dust everywhere such as a miter saw. There are a million videos on people trying to tame a miter saw. Also, almost no dust control is achieved on above the table on a table saw. The blade is moving too fast for all of the material to get out of the gullets of aggressive blades. Even overarm collectors are only a little bit effective.
I don't know where the disconnect happened, but reading your comment I feel like you're commenting on someone else's video. I don't care about pressure so long as there's enough to make sure I'm getting adequate airflow at my tool. That was the whole point of the video, showing how duct size and static pressure affect air flow at the impeller port v end of the hose (tool).
Also I don't know where you got 2500fpm for collection... Everything I've read says dust collection requires 3500-4500 fpm (Oneida, Bill Pentz, OSHA, Wood Magazine). The seeming assertion that 2500fpm x port area tell you how make CFM is needed is very flawed. Different machines have different flow requirements.
Also from my reading static pressure loss is more like .25" per 1' of 4" flex hose. Again, not that I care about pressure loss, I care about air loss caused by that. It sounds like you're saying a 100' of straight flex hose shouldn't bare a second thought, but in my test just 10' of straight flex hose resulted in a 100cfm (20% total flow) loss. And in my old shop with just ~30' of 4" solid pipe I saw significant drops in volume. Disregarding ducting length and fittings is just wrong.
But that's all way beyond what I was trying to talk about in under 15 minutes here. As I thought I established early on.. the main point was if most of your machines have shop vac sized ports (which are probably undersized for the machine and poorly located), don't assume investing in a dust collector is gonna be worth it for those tools (and may be worse without a lot of care and knowledge).
So I want to connect my 4" port from my lunchbox planer to my 2 1/2" shopvac with a secondary collector in between?
What are some thoughts on this setup?
By secondary collector do you mean like a cyclone? It doesn’t hurt to try. It won’t be pulling the air flow needed but it’s better than nothing. What’ll help is if the planer is throwing the chips at the outlet.
Worst case it’ll just clog and then you know it don’t work.
Yes. I want to take a short 2 1/2" hose from the shopvac to the top of a trash can lid and a 4" in (probably PVC) from the can to the planer. I have been using the planer with 'passive collection' and just directing it into the can with a 4" PVC elbow and 2' pipe but it sometimes clogs. My thinking is that creating any negative pressure should make it more efficient. I'll let you know how it works.
Tnx
Thanks for watching 👍
Welp, looks like I will just stick with the Rigid vac until I can afford an Oneida. Thanks!
Happy to help!
nice!
Thanks!
Well now I have to go rearrange my dust collection system because everything I thought I was doing right was actually wrong.😂 thanks for the very educational video and the facts don’t lie! Great job and you got a new subscriber out of me
You can do it! 🤣🤣
Record Power CamVac 🔋 = The MOST static pressure you're going to find.
This should be on the need waste network!!
What's the need waste network? Thanks! I think.. not knowing what it is 🤣
Some of Oneida's larger systems have intelligence to better deal with smaller ports and situations like CNC machines. This is in addition to the SuperCell.
Oh nice, that’s good to know!
You should not reduce and the use a smaller hose You should always reduce it right at the machine. Yes it still reduces efficiency but not as bad as running it through a 6' long hose.