I definitely poach and encourage my partner to do so as well. Even though your poach did not win the rally, it forces your opponent to be concerned about a poach on future thirds.
I have the same challenge. They almost always target my wife. It makes it frustrating to not be able to play, let alone help. We've had the conversation a few times about switching it up sometimes. Poaching has almost become a must. Sometimes I'll have her play a step or two back so I can cover more of the front. Those aren't my favorite games, but i don't blame them. I'd pick on the 5' girl over the 6' guys any day. Thanks for the video to confirm it's important to find ways to mix things up.
You should not have poached, Tony. You traveled way too far to the left to hit that ball, leaving your partner vulnerable to covering the open space you left behind.
I do the same exact thing. I think it’s an over commitment. Prepare for the poach by squeezing middle then wait to see if it’s a poachable ball. I think the very best players commit way less than good players. They are ready for anything - especially balls behind them.
Appreciate the comment. I think a difficulty when we play is that we need to make a decision (and act on it) at time T but will not have additional information, like the type of shot that is coming our way until T+2 for instance. But if we wait for T+2 before we act then that would be too late to get there. Puts us in a position where you have to pick before you have all the information you would like to have. Thanks for checking out the content and be well.
Very Good Content, Tony! The one poach on the far left even my woman’s doubles partner would have rolled her eyes if I have tried that move 😂! With my strong serve, I tend to attack on the bounce on a short return. Puts the return in awkward position as my partner follows me to the net and I return to my right side or attack another ball right at me. I am in my sixties and most fellow 65+ players lose a step or two or three 🤷🏼♂️ in foot movement. That’s another way to take advantage and dictate the point.
#1 I don't see them hitting a ton of poach-able balls. They are pretty consistent with the ball height. #2 once you run the poach one or two times they are pretty much hip to it. My question is where is their weakness? Did you try lobbing them? Perhaps over Johan to test Stephanie's agility. Also, I don't see many speedups. How are their hands? Maybe throw a couple bait speedups out there and see if they hold up. To find opportunity you need to move them around so maybe less cross court dinks by Carrina and mixing in the middle. Their middle is always good for confusion and brings a greater potential to bring you into the game. Last, once you poach a couple times and they are hip, then fake poaching can be just as effective and gives you an opportunity. Love the sharing and commentary! TY!
In mixed doubles, the guy usually gets iced out and isn’t a threat without some poaching involved. I prefer for my partner to poach to take some pressure off of me even if he misses as this puts pressure on the other team to make a good shot. Anyone who has played against Tony knows he wins a lot of points with poaching!
Yes, your jutification makes sense. My suggestion would be a variation in the execution, because you are running through the poach. Instead, take one shuffle step to the left to be in position to hit a poach, but plan to be balanced and coming down into a forward facing split step as you see where the opponent’s shot is going. You will be prepared to return forehand and have time as you come down to push off your right foot and step to the left to reach out for the poach. But, if the shot is hit back to your right, you will have time as you come down to push off your left foot and move to the right to retrieve the crosscourt dink. In other words, it feels more like a side step or hop to the left but still facing forward, which you do as the opponent looks down to track the ball they are about to hit. What you give up (in not covering a shot very close to the left sideline) you more than gain in the width of your coverage due to being balanced. Running through the poach puts you in a poor dynamic to hit the poach shot. It has to come exactly up to your left by 2 to 3 feet because you have so narrowly committed due to your momentum. I learned this from tennis. Rarely do you run so hard to poach that you give up split stepping, because a ball just behind you or at your body becomes difficult. That you ended up so far off the court is another sign you overran the shot.
Looking again, you did split step, so perhaps you could have recognized the ball was not quite reachable in the sense that you could hit an effective lift dink. So, ideally you could have let your partner take it. Easier said than done! Thus, chalk it up to a ball that happened to fall where the decision making was very difficult.
Appreciate the thoughtfulness of these comments. Agree that a more athletic positioning would have been better. I am not known for my grace on the court :).
Appreciate the comment. I think a difficulty when we play is that we need to make a decision (and act on it) at time T but will not have additional information, like the type of shot that is coming our way until T+2 for instance. But if we wait for T+2 before we act then that would be too late to get there. Puts us in a position where you have to pick before you have all the information you would like to have. Thanks for checking out the content and be well.
I would say it was the wrong type of ball to try and poach. Risk vs reward. So there isn't a tiny time window to decide if it is good ball to try, you have already decided that type of ball will not be attempted(and live with the decision even if one is popped up).A return hit to her backhand or in the middle (where you successfully poached) is different. Just curious, did you try reverse stacking? How often does your partner play the left vs right in her normal playing? And some lobbers are not great lob retreivers so if you can lob them first... Thanks for having us think about strategy!
@@BestPickleballCoach if it wasn't for watching your videos Tony, I wouldn't even know about reverse stacking or shadow serving or all kinds of things! Thanks for teaching us! 😀
The lob is an underrated shot at the higher levels, but it is starting to get more of its due as the overall level of play improves and players look for differentiators
No for a number of reasons. 1. You did not wait to see how well the shot from your partner was, if you had you would have stayed back and let them hit another shot. 2. You were stacking and what you did was just undo the stack that you had started with. 3. The opponent was able to hit a really low ball that your partner would have had a much easier time getting. You were maybe surprised by the low ball, but that's where everything went wrong. leading to being off balance and hitting a pop up. 4. You were off balance and had to run off court after hitting the ball leaving your partner to cover the entire court
Appreciate the comment and the thoughtfulness of your process. I would pose the following questions (for each number): 1. How can I wait and still poach there? 2. Is it ok to do this on a poach? 3. Agree as to result but give some thought to timing of knowing result versus timing of decision to poach. 4. True. That was the tradeoff. I did the same in the other poach in the video.
I do think poaching is a good strategy but you need to watch what your partner is doing and where they are at to be sure that your decision to poach makes sense. As I see it in this case maybe poaching wasn't the best strategy as it left the court wide open for your opponents, and your partner wasn't able to cover.
Thank you Debbie. 100% agreed that partner position is relevant. That is why I would suggest that poaching on the 5th is easier as there is more space. But it does indeed open the court to attack :)
I like the aggressiveness, but, the shot was so far to your left that it took you completely off the court. This left your partner playing ‘Singles’ against tough opponents.
@@BestPickleballCoach I love to poach, but let me explain that I am 71 years old and not as quick as a lot of the players I compete with. If I believe I can make the shot and the middle is open, I poach
My opnion is that your poach is too risky, because you are trying to poach on a low dink. A dink offers not enough time and height for success. I would have your partner move back one step and then dink to the female player on the same side. Their likely response will not be a lob because the extra step will render the lob impotent. The response will not be a cross court shot to you since that breaks the "jail". The most likely response will be a down the line but short dink to your partner. This offers your partner the perfect opportunity to anticioate and then hit a high lob down the line. This turns the table on which team is being lobbed.
Thanks for the comment. I like the overall strategy idea. There is one remaining potential consideration: who can grind longer in a straight-on dink battle. I would also suggest giving some thought to the timing question: a - my knowing that the shot I was poaching was going to be a low dink and b - the latest I can make a decision to poach. It is an interesting dilemma.
No it wasnt initial, NO it wasnt after explanation - because it was too far of a strectch and you should have let carrena take the shot on that one as she was more stable and in postion to make a much better dink not to the player on the other side. I just could not believe she didnt smack into your open hole that left a vaccuum that your partner did not switch to the hole. You had the right strategy but not on that poach that took you out of your defensive postion and a wonky return directly to the player. I try to abort the poach if i havent done foot work to get there and be stable enough to hit the ball well. Careena looks like she nneeds footwork like Yohans - he is flawless like ben johns with control of the dink and stablitly - footwork to poach effective is utmost - just becaue you can get a paddle on the ball (and you didnt recognoze the poach and move one step to position for stability) doesnt mean you should do so. I used to try poaching with poor results and when i uesd my footwork to position for a good strike on the ball and my partner know to switch to my hole while i swing back into her side after striking. This was not a good poach because it was hit to player, teammate didnt switch, you were over extended and you partner could have played the ball mmore effectively down the line inside out or cross dink. Wrong time, wrong reach/exetnded for poor shot, poor communication with partner prior to poach to switch - yes she still hit straight ahead but anybody would have hit the the 80% hole to her left instead of back into no mans land where your partner could have retuned the ball.
Why not lob them first before they lob you? Also, your partner just keeps engaging in a Dink battle she is losing w/o changing direction. If you’re losing a Dino battle you gotta change it up.
Deciding to poach as a concept is a no-brainer, then. It should always be an option especially in Mixed Doubles. As long as it’s not too forced, you’re taking the poached ball instead of your partner and usually at an earlier time than the opponents are expecting it so the opponents will likely be on the defense.
Common Dale. No pickleball player believes that "an off-speed shoulder high pop up has any place in my game." I am going to let you answer your own question. I show you the intended outcome in the video (hint: it is the poach that is on the thumbnail).
From looking back at it, it worked off the volley shot. Not so much off the low bounce when you are off balance and moving. But then they say hindsight is 20/20.@@BestPickleballCoach
Ty Richard. The difficulty is when to make the decision versus when you have the information. Have a video coming out on this soon. Check it out and see what you think.
Tony: I refer to your "Respect the X" strategy every day to low level players. In that video, you broke that principal and paid the price. You are in good company. That was a great example of what not to do. The X theory may be one of the best kept secrets in all of sports.
@@Leaann111 appreciate the reply and your sharing the RTX concepts with other players. There is a more nuanced conversation about the interplay between RTX and the rally in this video than can be accomplished in YT chat format :). I am going to schedule a live RTX session to discuss this I think. Thanks again
@@BestPickleballCoach There is more to it. One is to send the message that you may do it again, but you may not. I sometimes I stunt like I'm going to poach and then don't. If I see the opponent moving to poach I hit behind them. I'm with ya. I'm not agin ya. You are doing good work and your videos have helped my game.
Do you poach? Like it when your partner poaches? What do you think?
I do pouch when I know my partner is having trouble moving up. You over pouches that ball on the left. She was right there.
I definitely poach and encourage my partner to do so as well. Even though your poach did not win the rally, it forces your opponent to be concerned about a poach on future thirds.
I have the same challenge. They almost always target my wife. It makes it frustrating to not be able to play, let alone help. We've had the conversation a few times about switching it up sometimes. Poaching has almost become a must. Sometimes I'll have her play a step or two back so I can cover more of the front.
Those aren't my favorite games, but i don't blame them. I'd pick on the 5' girl over the 6' guys any day.
Thanks for the video to confirm it's important to find ways to mix things up.
Sounds like you have lived it :). Glad the video helped.
Great breakdown and explanation. I now see how context makes a huge difference.
Thank you Polly. Glad it helped with framing.
You should not have poached, Tony. You traveled way too far to the left to hit that ball, leaving your partner vulnerable to covering the open space you left behind.
Hi Peggy. That is true. Something to consider: what other options did we have as a team?
Overall very helpful to see a strategy from opponents and your thought process to address it. Thank you
Thank you Richard.
I do the same exact thing. I think it’s an over commitment. Prepare for the poach by squeezing middle then wait to see if it’s a poachable ball. I think the very best players commit way less than good players. They are ready for anything - especially balls behind them.
Appreciate the comment. I think a difficulty when we play is that we need to make a decision (and act on it) at time T but will not have additional information, like the type of shot that is coming our way until T+2 for instance. But if we wait for T+2 before we act then that would be too late to get there. Puts us in a position where you have to pick before you have all the information you would like to have. Thanks for checking out the content and be well.
They are from Memphis! He is a pro at a local counrty club. Thanks for the strategy lesson.
Stephanie and Johan are amazing players (and people) :)
Very Good Content, Tony!
The one poach on the far left even my woman’s doubles partner would have rolled her eyes if I have tried that move 😂! With my strong serve, I tend to attack on the bounce on a short return. Puts the return in awkward position as my partner follows me to the net and I return to my right side or attack another ball right at me. I am in my sixties and most fellow 65+ players lose a step or two or three 🤷🏼♂️ in foot movement. That’s another way to take advantage and dictate the point.
Thanks Brian. Love the third shot insertion.
#1 I don't see them hitting a ton of poach-able balls. They are pretty consistent with the ball height. #2 once you run the poach one or two times they are pretty much hip to it. My question is where is their weakness? Did you try lobbing them? Perhaps over Johan to test Stephanie's agility. Also, I don't see many speedups. How are their hands? Maybe throw a couple bait speedups out there and see if they hold up. To find opportunity you need to move them around so maybe less cross court dinks by Carrina and mixing in the middle. Their middle is always good for confusion and brings a greater potential to bring you into the game. Last, once you poach a couple times and they are hip, then fake poaching can be just as effective and gives you an opportunity. Love the sharing and commentary! TY!
Thanks for the comment. Good ideas in there and a positive way to think about solving the puzzle.
Your poach was a good idea but your shot gave her a cookie.
It did indeed. That happens. But appreciate that you acknowledge the process as well (the decision to poach vs the Oreo that resulted).
In mixed doubles, the guy usually gets iced out and isn’t a threat without some poaching involved. I prefer for my partner to poach to take some pressure off of me even if he misses as this puts pressure on the other team to make a good shot. Anyone who has played against Tony knows he wins a lot of points with poaching!
That's what I am talking about. Appreciate the comment and your understanding of the other layers make in game time decisions. Have a great day KP.
Yes, your jutification makes sense. My suggestion would be a variation in the execution, because you are running through the poach. Instead, take one shuffle step to the left to be in position to hit a poach, but plan to be balanced and coming down into a forward facing split step as you see where the opponent’s shot is going. You will be prepared to return forehand and have time as you come down to push off your right foot and step to the left to reach out for the poach. But, if the shot is hit back to your right, you will have time as you come down to push off your left foot and move to the right to retrieve the crosscourt dink.
In other words, it feels more like a side step or hop to the left but still facing forward, which you do as the opponent looks down to track the ball they are about to hit. What you give up (in not covering a shot very close to the left sideline) you more than gain in the width of your coverage due to being balanced. Running through the poach puts you in a poor dynamic to hit the poach shot. It has to come exactly up to your left by 2 to 3 feet because you have so narrowly committed due to your momentum.
I learned this from tennis. Rarely do you run so hard to poach that you give up split stepping, because a ball just behind you or at your body becomes difficult. That you ended up so far off the court is another sign you overran the shot.
Looking again, you did split step, so perhaps you could have recognized the ball was not quite reachable in the sense that you could hit an effective lift dink. So, ideally you could have let your partner take it. Easier said than done! Thus, chalk it up to a ball that happened to fall where the decision making was very difficult.
Appreciate the thoughtfulness of these comments. Agree that a more athletic positioning would have been better. I am not known for my grace on the court :).
Strategy was sound. But it was a bad shot to try to poach.
Appreciate the comment. I think a difficulty when we play is that we need to make a decision (and act on it) at time T but will not have additional information, like the type of shot that is coming our way until T+2 for instance. But if we wait for T+2 before we act then that would be too late to get there. Puts us in a position where you have to pick before you have all the information you would like to have. Thanks for checking out the content and be well.
I would say it was the wrong type of ball to try and poach. Risk vs reward. So there isn't a tiny time window to decide if it is good ball to try, you have already decided that type of ball will not be attempted(and live with the decision even if one is popped up).A return hit to her backhand or in the middle (where you successfully poached) is different.
Just curious, did you try reverse stacking? How often does your partner play the left vs right in her normal playing? And some lobbers are not great lob retreivers so if you can lob them first...
Thanks for having us think about strategy!
Good stuff Ian. The point about reverse stacking is a great one. In hindsight, I would do it more and may even consider using it the entire game.
@@BestPickleballCoach if it wasn't for watching your videos Tony, I wouldn't even know about reverse stacking or shadow serving or all kinds of things! Thanks for teaching us! 😀
@@ianmacdonald5278 :). Pleasure
@@ianmacdonald5278 good to be with you.
Sounds to me like the lob can maybe be implemented, at some higher levels, into your strategy on how to beat the bangers.
The lob is an underrated shot at the higher levels, but it is starting to get more of its due as the overall level of play improves and players look for differentiators
No for a number of reasons.
1. You did not wait to see how well the shot from your partner was, if you had you would have stayed back and let them hit another shot.
2. You were stacking and what you did was just undo the stack that you had started with.
3. The opponent was able to hit a really low ball that your partner would have had a much easier time getting. You were maybe surprised by the low ball, but that's where everything went wrong. leading to being off balance and hitting a pop up.
4. You were off balance and had to run off court after hitting the ball leaving your partner to cover the entire court
Also poaching is a really good idea, but there are times to do it and times to not, and that was not a time to poach.
Appreciate the comment and the thoughtfulness of your process. I would pose the following questions (for each number):
1. How can I wait and still poach there?
2. Is it ok to do this on a poach?
3. Agree as to result but give some thought to timing of knowing result versus timing of decision to poach.
4. True. That was the tradeoff. I did the same in the other poach in the video.
I do think poaching is a good strategy but you need to watch what your partner is doing and where they are at to be sure that your decision to poach makes sense. As I see it in this case maybe poaching wasn't the best strategy as it left the court wide open for your opponents, and your partner wasn't able to cover.
Thank you Debbie. 100% agreed that partner position is relevant. That is why I would suggest that poaching on the 5th is easier as there is more space. But it does indeed open the court to attack :)
I like the aggressiveness, but, the shot was so far to your left that it took you completely off the court. This left your partner playing ‘Singles’ against tough opponents.
Hello Mike. Agreed. It is a calculated risk that does not always pay off. Note that it did in the other poach even though I was off the court.
I only poach if it's a sure put away, same when my partner does it.
Thanks William. How do you know it is a sure put away before you poach?
A mans got to know his limitations!
Common now - the moon is the limit :). Appreciate the comment.
Left your side of the court wide open. If you don't hit a winner, you are in trouble.
Hello John. Would there never be a time to poach then?
@@BestPickleballCoach
I love to poach, but let me explain that I am 71 years old and not as quick as a lot of the players I compete with. If I believe I can make the shot and the middle is open, I poach
It’s called keeping the other team honest. They I am sure were picking on his partner.
My opnion is that your poach is too risky, because you are trying to poach on a low dink. A dink offers not enough time and height for success. I would have your partner move back one step and then dink to the female player on the same side. Their likely response will not be a lob because the extra step will render the lob impotent. The response will not be a cross court shot to you since that breaks the "jail". The most likely response will be a down the line but short dink to your partner. This offers your partner the perfect opportunity to anticioate and then hit a high lob down the line. This turns the table on which team is being lobbed.
Thanks for the comment. I like the overall strategy idea. There is one remaining potential consideration: who can grind longer in a straight-on dink battle. I would also suggest giving some thought to the timing question: a - my knowing that the shot I was poaching was going to be a low dink and b - the latest I can make a decision to poach. It is an interesting dilemma.
No it wasnt initial, NO it wasnt after explanation - because it was too far of a strectch and you should have let carrena take the shot on that one as she was more stable and in postion to make a much better dink not to the player on the other side. I just could not believe she didnt smack into your open hole that left a vaccuum that your partner did not switch to the hole. You had the right strategy but not on that poach that took you out of your defensive postion and a wonky return directly to the player. I try to abort the poach if i havent done foot work to get there and be stable enough to hit the ball well. Careena looks like she nneeds footwork like Yohans - he is flawless like ben johns with control of the dink and stablitly - footwork to poach effective is utmost - just becaue you can get a paddle on the ball (and you didnt recognoze the poach and move one step to position for stability) doesnt mean you should do so. I used to try poaching with poor results and when i uesd my footwork to position for a good strike on the ball and my partner know to switch to my hole while i swing back into her side after striking. This was not a good poach because it was hit to player, teammate didnt switch, you were over extended and you partner could have played the ball mmore effectively down the line inside out or cross dink. Wrong time, wrong reach/exetnded for poor shot, poor communication with partner prior to poach to switch - yes she still hit straight ahead but anybody would have hit the the 80% hole to her left instead of back into no mans land where your partner could have retuned the ball.
Appreciate the comment. When would have been the right time to decide move/no move in the context of this game?
Why not lob them first before they lob you? Also, your partner just keeps engaging in a Dink battle she is losing w/o changing direction. If you’re losing a Dino battle you gotta change it up.
Dink battle, not Dino
Lobbing first is an option.
Committed too soon.😊
Thanks for the comment. Some food for thought: When should I have committed?
Tough opponents
That is what we play for right? Thanks Nate.
Nope.
Edit: hehe, after watching the whole video, the context, yes. 😅
:)
Instead waiting for the dink battle, did she try to speed up?
There were some speedups, I think you can see one in this video.
Strategy to poach was fine but it was the wrong ball to do it on, it was a low dink snd you popped it up.
Thanks Darin. The question I think is how to make the poach or no poach decision before you know the exact ball that is coming across.
Deciding to poach as a concept is a no-brainer, then. It should always be an option especially in Mixed Doubles. As long as it’s not too forced, you’re taking the poached ball instead of your partner and usually at an earlier time than the opponents are expecting it so the opponents will likely be on the defense.
No..think would have been fine had you finished the point ..probably the wrong ball but not the wrong strategy
Hello David. I am writing a couple of pieces on this. The conundrum is that we cannot know the result before we take the action.
I do not think that an off-speed shoulder high pop up has any place in my game. Now tell me what was the intended, shot off that poach.
Common Dale. No pickleball player believes that "an off-speed shoulder high pop up has any place in my game." I am going to let you answer your own question. I show you the intended outcome in the video (hint: it is the poach that is on the thumbnail).
From looking back at it, it worked off the volley shot. Not so much off the low bounce when you are off balance and moving. But then they say hindsight is 20/20.@@BestPickleballCoach
@@dalevoigt8612 It is indeed.
I understand your reasoning. But the timing was wrong
Ty Richard. The difficulty is when to make the decision versus when you have the information. Have a video coming out on this soon. Check it out and see what you think.
your first poch was a non attaable ball. The second was an attaable ball. If you're losing the game, then yes, try something different.
True Dave. The question is when do I know it is unattackable versus when I need to make my move (decide to make my move).
I would say no. 1st poach. You did not finish the point. That hsppens.
Thanks Jim. Do you see how that might limit any player's poaching? I cannot know the outcome before I poach.
No not good
Hello Rosanna. Did you not like the poach when I started moving - or when we saw the outcome of the shot.
Ball hog. Poacher! It cost ya.
That is one way of looking at it :)
Tony: I refer to your "Respect the X" strategy every day to low level players. In that video, you broke that principal and paid the price. You are in good company. That was a great example of what not to do. The X theory may be one of the best kept secrets in all of sports.
@@Leaann111 appreciate the reply and your sharing the RTX concepts with other players. There is a more nuanced conversation about the interplay between RTX and the rally in this video than can be accomplished in YT chat format :). I am going to schedule a live RTX session to discuss this I think. Thanks again
@@BestPickleballCoach There is more to it. One is to send the message that you may do it again, but you may not. I sometimes I stunt like I'm going to poach and then don't. If I see the opponent moving to poach I hit behind them. I'm with ya. I'm not agin ya. You are doing good work and your videos have helped my game.
@@Leaann111 👍🔥