The problem with Reverb they don't want you to know
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 кві 2024
- I have stopped selling Guitars on Reverb recently. My concerns aren't only just about fees or customer service. The issue goes much deeper and that is what I examine in this video
![[柴犬ASMR]曼玉Manyu&小白Bai 毛发护理Spa asmr](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TsXQ7z2Dh4/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember the days where there were no taxes on reverb...I got several insane deals before the gov got to them.
Haha that was always going to be short lived
Reverb used to provide great shipping insurance. Now if things break they fight just like the major couriers who are impossible to receive a claim from.
There are no options that protect buyers and sellers anymore.
I've just recently discovered your channel, Utkarsh, and I am glad I did. You have have a lot of knowledge and insight. I really appreciate that you never have an agenda - just sharing the facts as you see them.
Thank you. I appreciate your kind words
The best remedy for this is guitar players to become absolutely ruthless in their gear acquisitions: never buy with the intention to SELL. And really, really scrutinize ALL guitar purchases. The time and money saved from the onset, over a twenty year period, are immense.
Too many guitarists see this recreational hobby as "chasing gear" focused, and that's too bad. A one-in, one-out principle is also a very good idea. The less you need to buy, the less time and money are wasted having to sell.
There is very little to be gained from having to flip gear,, especially in this "buy before you try" market. Everything can be tried out, so we should do so.
This abuse of the sellers happened on Ebay, and it's now happening with Reverb. There needs to be another way.
Phil, could we turn the clock back three years ago. Now I am selling gear and have spent 100's of dollars on unnecessary mods. I became obsessed during Covid, but I was working. I probably put in 10,000 when I could have been happy spending 1500 to 2000 on one good fender and one amp. Maybe 1 or 2 pedals. I was no happier either. 5000 of it is gone. Sunk costs. I heard of people spending 10,000 on one or 2 guitars and that was only the beginning
Great point. I'm so tired hearing about "resale value" for Fenders and Gibsons, but their quality has gone down the tubes every year.; and who can afford a vintage anymore (not to mention all the work to put into a vintage). It's like the real estate market, everything is too expensive because of flippers/investors.
@@playthechanges The quality has gone back up with Fender, but the new ones are expensive.
Fascinating video ! Thank you for sharing !
I sold an effects pedal on Reverb for $350. Reverb ASSUMED that I'm a "small business", and that all proceeds of my auction should be classified as "income" - sending my transaction to the IRS, and that I should be TAXED on that income. This is a complete violation of privacy, and totally incorrect - I am not a "small business" - the effects pedal was my personal property not subject to any income-tax rules.
That's been that way for over a year now. The idea is that if you bought the pedal for $100, then sold for $350, you have income of $250. Reverb and other companies are required to do this. If you don't want that to happen, sell it locally for cash.
It’s not a violation of your privacy. You’re selling an item on the open market.
@@Scott__C The "idea" is fundamentally flawed - to be tax-declared as a business, I should have a business license. I do NOT have one - therefore, I am not a business. I am an individual, and there is no tax law that requires private sales be classified as "business profit". If I paid $400 for a pedal, and sell it online for $350, I didn't make $350 in "taxable profit"....I shouldn't be required to list every personally-held asset with the Government to prove any stipulation regarding my "business status".
Dude, I get it, but that has NOTHING to do with Reverb. Etsy even went to court to fight the stupid 2021 law that required anyone "generating income" from online sales to report it as a 1099-MISC or 1099-K income. Direct your anger at the government, who is essentially a mafia upset anytime sells anything on their turf without them getting a cut.
@@Kidsinamerica Right, it's a loss of $50 from your purchase price, thus not taxed.
I do my selling Sweetwater. They are a good company.
For now...they sold out to private equity in 2021.
It's only a matter of time.
Chuck Surak ran it until it sold to Private Equity. Now the company is run by the marketing guy. I've seen a number of reports of their customer service having slumped since then. Private Equity doesn't keep stuff forever. They'll want to sell the company again in about 5 years to get a big payout.
For me it's the shipping ( not their fault of course)
Makes no sense to sell there for regular folks
I do think if they could negotiate a deal with the courier companies and provide a standardised , well priced (due to economies of scale) shipping option to customers, that would be a proper value ad. Individual buyers struggle to get good rates from courier companies especially internationally
@@ministryofguitaryes. It’s sad to see how they fail to provide for example the EU with a shipping alternative. There not putting in the hours to make it more consumer friendly as you said. Where are the new ideas, and how come sellers aren’t asked about giving feedback to Reverb about the important parts of their experience?
Having been the victim of two different corporate takeovers, I'm familiar with the concept of the buyer extracting the purchase cost from the purchased company. This 100% makes sense (It's the only way.), but while those costs are being recouped, budgets are slashed, resources reduced, employee salaries are frozen, staff is made redundant, all in the name of increasing productivity and profits. The employees of the purchased company may have already rode out the austerity program the prior owners enacted to make their company look more profitable than it really was, and now they will need to ride out the cut-backs implemented by their new corporate gods while earning back their purchase price.
My first experience with this quickly resulted in being made redundant, after I was tasked with moving my job offshore. My second experience was better: the division where I was employed was the one that was making a profit and my co-workers and I flourished under new ownership. It was the other divisions that were only scraping by or in the red that were gutted and offshored.
As you can see, when it comes to corporations, it’s all about profit at the end of the day. Everything else is window dressing
I've only bought off of Reverb once (an Aria Nashville Tele since they don't sell them to U.S retailers) but it went really well for me. The price was good and the shipping was free. With that being said I much rather purchase from places like Sweetwater so I don't see myself going to Reverb often.
After taxes and shipping good luck getting a deal. Returns also arent guaranteed. Marketplace works well and guitar center offers a 45 day return policy. I try to stick to those.
Thanks!
Thank you. The support is well appreciated
Venture Capitalism at its finest. I’m pleased you’ve stuck your principles. I think used guitars are best done like Ishibashi.
yes some dealers like ishibashi are a pleasure to deal with. And Venture Capitalism ultimately has tio bow to market forces. If the market doesn't tolerate an inferior product or service (as Reverb is at the moment), so be it
Selling your gear through 3rd party established shops, no matter how convenient, is ultimately the reason a company like Reverb exists: people want to sell their gear and net the most profit for themselves. If done through consignment, you simply lose too much money and time, especially if sold locally and you're not in a major centre. So Reverb is milking that that margin between consignment stores and using something like FB Marketplace.
VC and Private Equity are seldom good for end users and customers.
Thank you for your Insight! WooF!!🐶🐶
I quit selling on Reverb. After the acquisition, everything went down hill and is a terrible selling experience.
It’s interesting that Etsy bought Reverb. Didn’t know that!
You know Greg's Guitars here on youtube, right? His playing ability is the best sales pitch for his guitars.
Ok, if you don't start the competitor, would you fund the competitor if they found you? (FYI it's not me lol)
haha I'm a very small fish relative with what you have in the investment world
@@ministryofguitar I think the solution is going to have to come from small fish
that is true. Most big fish are mainly interested in getting even bigger
In the US Sweetwater now provides a very similar service. I am unsure as to the business model. I am sure it is reflecting reverbs policies. We get the appearance of competition.
Yes I am aware though not familiar with them as it’s only US based
The nice thing about Sweetwater is you can get a Sweetwater card for the full value of your gear. You use the card for new gear.
Ive started using Sweetwater here in the US, and I've had more success there than with Reverb.
I’ve sold a bunch on Reverb in the last year. No issues and no complaints. If I’m not using USPS I don’t use Reverb for buying a shipping label. There are 3rd party brokers that will get you a much better deal for larger items. I sold things I never would have been able to sell locally. Not only making a fair bit more than selling to a store but be able to sell things that music stores would have said no to.
Yeah I think for those whose only other option is a music store, Reverb is cheaper. But crucially unlike a music store, you have to do everything yourself (marketing, listing, packing, shipping)
@@ministryofguitar It’s the difference between between being private buying and selling vs. a store. In the beginning Reverb wasn’t about stores as much as a marketplace for the public. Stores wanted to tap into that market beyond their local and existing web presence. The costs of doing that are on them.
you know I have seen the change on the buyer's side, where I have seen people selling brand new Dean and kramer guitars at outrageous prices, I was like forget that I can buy them brand spanking new for cheaper. and can someone tell me if Gibson dose custom orders why Kramer don't do custom orders when Gibson owns Kramer
Considering the used market is also tanking at the same time, I’d say paying for 275 million for reverb was just dumb. People are also abandoning reverb in droves 😂
OFF SUBJECt. I appreciate your production values. Can you let me know your set up? I tried to find out on your site. Thank you.
Hey man, I use a DJI Pocket III for the video. The key is the lighting though. I have 3 lights pointed at me, a studio light (NEEWER RGB168), a DIGINUT SD116 Ring light and , a larger off brand ring in different directions. Audio is simply my voice into an Audio Technica AT2020, into Logic Pro with some slight vocal compression
@@ministryofguitar In a past life I used to be involved in video production-actually on a cruise ship. I think sound is crucial and of course good video and simple background. The important issue is you offer info know when else has. I congratulate you. Now if I can only find good, used gear. Cheers. I will be watching more of your past videos.
I personally lost 600€ on a PJE Macon because the buyer was in New-York… I payed 600€ of NY fees… it was the worst experience of my life when it comes to sell a guitar.
NY fees?
@@StuffnSuch I mean New York tax fees. Where I am living there’s no tax fees for the second hand market. I wasn’t aware of that.
Same reason why i STOPPED using EBAY! I am also out of REVERB.
How is eBay not competition?
Is infinite growth a new thing or have companies been doing this for a long time. I know in the U.S. we had “everything companies” like and GE and Honeywell but there were regulations on the non-virtual side of business that broke them up when they got too big. In the virtual world we have Meta, Apple, Alphabet, Microsoft, Google and many others which in their somewhat unregulated space are taking infinite growth methodology to an extent that I can’t really see being sustainable. I’m not a business expert by any definition, but if the consumers don’t like it, doesn’t it all fall down? Why doesn’t corporate leadership fear spending metric tons of money on smaller companies that are trying just to sustain themselves and then attempting to make that much smaller company into a profit-generating juggernaut for the rest of the massive company?
I think we are in a particular business cycle now where a lot of poor business models got funded due to easy money. It's going to be a brutal test for these to survive once interest rates stay higher for longer. Reverb, my issue is that that 'easy' money led to a very high acquisition price and now in order to recoup that investment in this era of higher interest rates, they will deprioritize the consumer, since they can afford to in the absence of competition
I love the question: If a flea eats an elephant, does it look more like a flea, or an elephant. Think of AOL buying Time-Warner. Little Reverb is bought by monster Etsy. Result is a slightly larger Etsy, and a burp. Reverb will be absorbed in the larger culture.
Funny, right after you mentioned that Reverb was purchased by Etsy, the video was interrupted by an advertisement for Etsy! A coincidence?
Coincidence….not . Haha
Not at all. They search for keywords then tack their ads to those videos.
I've heard so many nightmares stories about people getting burned on Reverb that I am very hesitant to buy or sell anything on there. I have bought a few in the past but once the price gets up there there's no way I am taking that chance. Too risky IMO.
yeah they are generally not performing a good service relative to the fee they take
@@ministryofguitar not at all. Every time you buy a guitar it’s a gamble.
Buying is usually a reasonable experience because I'm not the one losing money on used gear or dealing with income tax from selling something on a second-hand market (that may be a U.S. problem; penalizing people for a virtual garage sale). Buyer taxes suck everywhere (but less so without VATs). Shipping fees can be frustrating, but many smaller brick-and-mortar shops incentivize you to buy with free shipping.
You could argue I'm partly paying the Reverb fees because otherwise a seller would drop their price, but right now, nobody can move anything without putting them on sale. Consumers aren't buying inflation excuses for price increases anymore, and the market corrections are leading to lower prices on the used market as well.
The thing is, Reverb is *still* cheaper than the best deal you could get selling at a Brick-and-Mortar shop.
That said, I've bought off Reverb, but don't think I'll ever sell there. I'd rather do the Craigslist sort of thing.
I knew Etsy was going to be up to Etsy things when they bought it. 😆
Yeah I think for the non involved seller, there is little option but to sell on Reverb. Selling to shops, you do have to accommodate for them to make their margin
@@ministryofguitar In the last 6 weeks I sold 2 Gibson les paul's on reverb and it was pretty quick and painless. I had acquired too many LPs and wanted to sell some and just get a custom shop. I sold a slash model LP that I paid 2500 for in 2021 for 2300 (after fees and shipping i got 2,020) and a wildwood LP standard (paid 2700 and sold for 2300). I sold them both within one week and it was easy. The only alternative was to sue craiglist which is way more shady. Sure, i might save the 9% of reverb feels but i have have spend time vetting weirdos and worrying about where i am going to meet up. I sold a strat to a guy off CL a while back and we met at a starbucks and he handed me a grand! I prefer reverb.
still kinda doesn't make sense.... the reason you're citing has been there since etsy's acquisition of reverb several years ago. so why now? what has changed?
I wasn't selling guitars internationally for a while. Re-looked at reverb recently
Sweetwater is competition-albeit small.
Sweetwater has been bought by Providence Equoty Partners.
As soon as Reverb sold to Etsy I bailed. We all knew at that point they were not focused on the musician in any way. Ripe for someone to compete if fees and shipping can be addressed.
Boycott Reverb.
I wouldn't say Boycott but it's definitely a personal choice whether to use their services
It will take them 30 years to get their 270 million back. They plan to sell the company within 5-10 years my guess.
You really don’t fully grasp the reasons why Etsy invested into Reverb.
Well spill the tea don’t leave us hanging
Reverb > ebay by far
Sorry but it’s hard to get upset about Reverb since guitars are mostly luxury items to a large part of the population. Professional musicians tend to have their own network of people to buy and sell gear.
I think there is nothing in the guitar world to get upset over. This is all just passion and fun.
I don't think you can expect a company to never increase fees, that's unrealistic. They're providing worldwide exposure for sellers if they choose to ship worldwide, they have server space and other backend and personnel costs as well. eBay is much larger and has slightly lower fees.
I guess the question is what should they be charging? If you take a guitar to a shop to trade in, they'll only give you around half of current sales on eBay or Reverb.
Increasing margins is a hallmark of great business. It usually goes together with value added to customers so everyone’s wins.Reverb’s current way of operation, of increasing fees without increasing value add (I would say decreasing value add given how their quality of customer service has deteriorated )is begging for a good competitor
@@ministryofguitar In the US companies raise prices all the time, if for no other reason than their own costs rising. I think what you say is ideal, but it rarely happens.
Well , all I can say about this , welcome to the America where you get taxed on everything , many times over. Sorry you have to see this fist hand , this is from a sellers perspective. I'm sure there are many tax breaks you can get from being a foreign business person that a natural born American does not receive. The way I see it , glad to see that, for once , maybe you do not get the 3 or 4 or 5 percent escape you have benefitted from that you have got in the past because of your business location. I try to buy local and I buy from families that are US citizen owned businesses. One family that has had huge tax advantages that I never buy from is Patels. They are entrenched into the gas station side of the US. So , have a nice American tax day =) , I'm sure you will get all this back , somewhere. I never would be able too.
I'm seeing more and more of these videos about people saying never to sell on Reverb. Okay, so I'll play the advocate of the devil here. If you tubers keep telling folks to not use Reverb, that certainly helps your odds of selling your gear by cutting down on competition. Just saying... Also, where are we supposed to go, ebay? Every single online vendor is going to take a cut. That's just business. If you go down to the local store and try and sell there, they are also going to give you a pittance for your gear. So where are you supposed to sell your gear? It's all well and good to criticize this or that particular online market, be it Reverb, Ebay, FB Maketplace, whate. Theyve all got their pros and cons. But what are the other options? No point in making a video unless you discuss as many options as possible.
It’s a very fair point. I have a video in my pipeline where I talk about what a Reverb competitor (or Reverb themselves) could do, to provide significant value ad to their cutsomers while still increasing profit