How Sm4sh RUINED King Dedede | Bad Smash Characters
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- Опубліковано 16 кві 2024
- The 2nd episode of bad smash characters has finally arrived. I technically first started making this video 7 months ago but problems had arised when making it meaning that Decided to but off on working on it until this last month. I hope you guys enjoy the final video.
- Ігри
12:19 The Bayonetta update has got to be the most "fuck you" update in Smash history. Pure comedy.
It's not far-fetched to assume the devs hate their playerbase, because... damn, how many times have they thrown an entry upside-down with a singular character? First it was Meta Knight, then it was Bayonetta, then it was Steve... Games like Smash 64 and Melee had their top tiers, but those were not cruel dictators with an iron fist on the rest of the roster. It just can't be a coincidence, because if it was, they'd patch the predominant characters to make things more fair... which they sometimes do, until DLC.
It's kinda sad how Dedede's entire playstyle in Sm4sh and Ultimate is to use a move that he doesn't even use in his games
Until they eventually made it a move he uses in Kirby Fighters 2 and Kirby and the Forgotten Land
Parallel Dedede does it too in Star Allies.
@@SonicTheCutehog I don't remember DDD using Gordos in Kirby Fighters 2 and in Forgotten Land the move it's used by a different version of DDD
@@finalmix4375 Dedede uses Gordos in one of his boss fights in Kirby Fighters 2
He can easily be a good character in ultimate if his arieals came out 2-3 frames faster
Does anyone else miss Waddle Dee's and Waddle Doos in Dedede's Side B...or is it just me?
Honestly seeing the waddle Dee's and Doo's walk around the stage doing their own thing was really cute and made the move that much more endearing.
The crazy part is that they gutted dededes shield pressure options in Ult for some reason, making it so that the characters gordo has less shield damage than Mario's fireball as well as coming out frame 30 and taking 2% to be knocked back.
Not only that however, f smash not breaking shields also made that moves intimidation factor disappear.
The character is held back by too many flaws that feels like they haven't been play tested. He doesn't feel particular hard hitting for a heavy yet he is cursed by probably the worst frame data out of all of them. His jab is the same startup as Lucian f smash for example. The character isn't necessarily badly designed like Ganon or mac is, he's just held back by too many downsides that.. seem unintentional like his easy 2 framing and frame data that they never addressed. He's too commital for the actual reward he gets.
Its for the best that gordo is like that, since you can change the gordo's trajectory to barely move forward at all, which, in tandem with its strong killpower and large hitbox, makes it a very potent area denial tool. If it wasn't easy to shield, it would make the matchup awful for some other low tier fighters with limited neutral/approach tools, while being basically irrelevant against higher tier fighters that can just deflect gordos with good frame data.
What really kills deedeedee is his being designed like a conservatively balanced heavy zoner. On paper the heavy zoner makes up for a lot of the heavy fighters weaknesses, so K-rule and DDD are balanced to be tricky, but weak. However, zoners that ended up being psuedo-heavies like Snake and Rob ended up with unmitigated tools and are great as a result. Rob in particular is one of the best zoners in the game, even with just 2 projectiles, and is also one of the best fighters in general.
Incineroar may be the “slowest” ground speed character, but his frame data and combos and damage potential (alongside a burst movement command grab) make him feel much faster and threatening than dedede, who is just dreadfully slow in everything and especially the air, the one place he should be good in as he has multiple jumps.
@@KLIXORthe the problem isn't that gordo is reflected, the problem is that it takes 2% to do so. If it was as simple as something like 6%, enough for most get up attacks to knock it back, that's perfectly fine. And while that may be true in theory, the fact that dedede relies so heavily on gordo for advantage means that it's very easy to just beat who you are.
And while that is true, even if that was the case, it doesn't help that even other low tier trap characters projectiles like duck hunt and Zelda do more danage
I wouldn't say Mac is poorly designed more so poorly balanced. You're right about Ganon though.
@@liquidladdy Mac is inherently badly designed. His design just encourages unfun gameplay for either party since approaching him his extremely risky so camping him out is often the optimal (and really boring) play.
Poor balance is like a character just being unreasonably slow like Bowser having an 8 frame jump squat in Melee.
Poor design is just how the game/character was inherently made and it’s bad, like how platforms have zero easy ways to get off of and really just exist as hazards in Ultimate. Or zoners having good brawling tools when they should be weak up close. Or Ult’s crazy buffer.
In an ironic twist of fate, I was a Gren main in Sm4sh and moved to Dedede in Ult because I found him super fun to play. Gren became good in Ult when Dedede did not 🫤
Greninja was 26th on the final tier list, was that not considered good by the end of sm4sh? I supposed that could be the case with the game's pay to win nature of it's last couple years.
@@demolitiongod64 He was high tier, just very heavily nerfed from what he used to be. Dedede is a lot better in ultimate but still has his core issues of being big, fat, and having no good stats or frame data.
@@demolitiongod64 I would call that a hig-mid tier, and I think Greninja is in the same spot in ultimate, where is between high and mid tier, good but not great.
One of my favorite strong things about Brawl Dedede was his spotdodge; it put him so far in the Z-axis that spamming it literally gave the opponent only a 2 frame window to punish him.
The overall thing is that for whatever reason, the SSB4 devs wanted to reinvent Dedede as a bruiser trapper character instead of the defensive behemoth he was in Brawl. The problem is that the reworked moveset lacks much of the utility and practicality Brawl Dedede's moveset had, and essentially made it so that the entire character's gameplan revolved around his new Gordo Toss, which in itself is a massive problem due to being able knock it back to Dedede. The move itself is also a massive pain to balance, cause not being able to knock it back could make Dedede one of the most obnoxious ledge trappers in Smash history, and he is already a massive noob/knowledge check character as he is currently.
This is reflected when looking at Ultimate Dedede: although better and a more functional character, he still possesses all of the same fundamental problems SSB4 Dedede had, and as such, is also a struggle character in that game.
Although the chaingrabbing days will never come back, I feel that Dedede would've potentially been a much better character if the devs stuck to the original vision of Dedede on being a more defensive superheavy with faster, more practical moves.
I think it would be a cool way to fix it with making the minion Toss a chargeable move like in Smash Remix. No charge Waddle Dee. Mid charge Waddle Doo. End charge Gordo. Ando you can still angle them the way you want. This only gives him and slight problem of needing to have the full charge for ledgetrap, but I think it's a good compromise to better his neutral with the Dees and Doos been safer to use.
Ye
I was a D main from Brawl. Played smash 4 and right of the bat I knew something was off and this was me not using ddd brawl jank.
The funny thing to me about sm4sh is all of my favorites to play in this game, everyone is like low tier (Palutena, Zelda, Dedede) 💀
I'm an Ike main and for two games in a row, he was believed to be good at some point and then the smash community was like "Nah he kinda trash lmao."
I'm almost convinced I might've been among the influences behind the Dedede nerfs, considering the playerbase of Dedede online is nonexistent. I was very active playing online in smash 4. I one tricked Dedede and beat quite a few hundred people over the time. Wouldn't surprise me if people got mad over losing to Dedede online and due to the embarassment ranted online until it caught Sakurai's attention. I remember once I made the friend of a friend rant and call Dedede broken. This guy was complaining down to the landing stars that come out from landing after up B. This got in the way of his punishes. He generally got whooped.
This channel is super underrated, you make some quality content
I'm actually trying to main Dedede as of lately. Not really to practice and win tournaments with him, but just to play with friends and just be a nuisance with my jab and gordos.
4:04 Ok, this got a chuckle out of me! Here's a Like for putting Olimar and the Pikmin in their canonical size!
The biggest problem is not having Masked Dedede theme in the game. It would buff Dedede's main power of Dededestruction by +200%.
Bruh it feels like I'd hit people with fair/dair/ftilt/gordo at 150 for them to go nowhere. Sometimes I wind up having to take the stock with a random uptilt or something. The hammer character's design is so incoherent, he'd just as well be swinging a sandbag.
If they never made Inhale an actually decent reflector, dedede would definitely be a bottom tier in Ultimate. He’s simply just so slow and not very rewarding for a heavyweight.
And he's still arguably bottom tier, considered a bottom 5 character and a 3/10 (I know that because Ultimate's tierlists use a 1-10/10 score system, which feels more accurate in terms of powerlevel overall).
Your totally gonna blow up ngl that was a great vid
Thanks for the compliment.
Great video, keep it up!! 💯
Thanks for the support.
i’ll never forget when leo lost to zaki
Nice to see someone mentioning the air speed nerf, till this day it makes no sense to make the slowest momvent option of dedede worse or in general the nerfs (or nothing) he got over time both in smash 4 and ultimate (except ultimate patch 8.0)
Babe wake up, demolition God dropped another video!
Not even taking HOW the moves would operate into account, I personally really prefer Dedede's Brawl moves over his 4 and Ult moves. Aside from down tilt, there is a lot more variety in the moves, such as his back air not even using his hammer and his down air not being a spike on a superheavyweight.
Minion Toss in particular is very easy to miss. As a kid, I didn't get the move at all. It really lacks impact, which Gordo Toss, despite its problems, definitely has. However, I think the idea of these passive, defensive projectiles being used as a shield or barrier to other projectiles and obstacles while occasionally attacking on their own is a very creative concept. As for Gordo Toss, there may technically be moves with more starting or ending lag, but I would wager to say it's the most easily exploitable move in the series for the opponent. Not only is it so ridiculously easy to punish, but it puts Dedede at such a disadvantage, and considering how often Dedede would use this in neutral, it's a ridiculously bad gamble.
It's obvious that Dedede was given a number of weaknesses to compensate for being a superheavyweight that has mostly disjointed moves and so many jumps, but I do feel that even in Ultimate he is overtuned for it just a bit too much.
Its kind of comforting to know that my enjoyment of Smash isnt the only thing that Sm4sh ruined.
Why didn't you like sm4sh?
I think even giving D3 his Brawl bair back would be a massive improvement. Dthrow would probably be worse in Ult now that the engine universally locks out regrabs on a set time to prevent most chaingrabs so you'd get maybe a ftilt out of it versus the current dthrow giving you at least a nice chunk for low % combo. His bair, on the other hand was an amazing neutral and edgeguard tool. Disjointed, lingers a surprising amount, and frame 6 which is actually really good for a heavy aerial. The weak hit is also good at setting up a wall-of-pain or outright gimp opponents.
I find it hilarious that they NERFED Dedede. I have absolutely no idea why they did that. The way that you told it to us in that video was hilarious. Nice Video! Can you do Link at some point? Maybe do 64 or Brawl Link, as he was pretty garbage in those games.
Brawl link would actually be very interesting. 64 link I've also been interesting in tackling but poor dude's been memed on a fair bit for his little Mac tier recovery.
64 link is also interesting because of revision difference, which tend to be more drastic compared to melee.
@@demolitiongod64 I think Brawl Link is interesting because they actually nerfed him in brawl, taking away his wall tether recovery option, making his recovery even worse. They nerfed his nair, and thanks to the removal of L cancelling, his arials were now garbage. He's very interesting to cover.
Enjoyed the video but please fix the inconsistent audio levels for your future vids, makes watching randomly very painful (Music starting extremely loud, random sound effects being really loud, etc.)
I think melee kirby could work as a topic or atleast his story with smash
very funny video dude
good video mr stallone
Why was snake heavyir that king dedede?
Who knows, rumors say snake's character model was originally bigger than it is in the final game but no one knows for sure.
There is a lot of oddities of Brawl Snake; his enormous weight, his frame 9 jumpsquat (the highest in the series), his hitboxes, etc.
Something definitely went screwy with the character due to last minute changes in development.
@@demolitiongod64That's a thing that happened with almost every character, they model the characters at different sizes and then shrink or grow them depending on how they should be properly scaled.
Guys carrying a nikita launcher and who knows how many missiles along with a dummy thicc ass
Damn we D3 mains had it rough and he still not much better in Ultimate. We still remain loyal to our King
He can easily be a good character in ultimate if his arieals came out 2-3 frames faster
That and make either fair or Bair autocancel earlier would make his defense much more viable
Brawl D3 was a stupid design that had to be reworked. Most of his power came from chaingrabbing and bairing people off the stage like a fat Jigg, he was a cheesy character that gatekept bad characters unable to play around his bs and was a sitting duck against anything that could.
4/Ult D3 is a healthier and genuinely intriguing concept for a character that is kneecapped severely by how consistently undertuned his moves are. His new aerials in particular are just bad, they massively exacerbate every issue with air mobility Dedede has already had by being so slow and not providing Dedede with the ability to spawn lingering hitboxes around him to create some space around his sluggish body, while not providing much of value in their own right. Other things about his kit do suck but if he was able to demand even the slightest bit of respect while in the air he might honestly be fine.
I wanna make it clear that I wasn't trying to claim Brawl Dedede was a well designed character, just a more viable one. Otherwise I think your comment is a nice summary for 4/Ult Dedede's issues.
i love getting creative with gordo setups, but man i miss waddle dee every day
I mained Dedede in this game (shocker) and honestly the most annoying aspect of him was that half of his moves didn't work correctly, so even if you played correctly against a camper and got close, your moves would sometimes just not work. You could roll out of inhale, fall out of forward tilt, down tilt would whiff completely if the character was skinny, up smash missed short opponents in front, and neutral air's late hitbox was pathetically small. It was rough to say the least.
Honestly, heavyweights with bad/medicore hitboxes seem more common in the series than they should be (Melee Dk, Ganon in most games, possibly forgetting more examples.)
Every time I see someone type “Sm4sh,” I think they’re censoring something, and, um, oh yeah, there’s a lot of things to cover up…
Glad dedede got one smash game where he got love
This comment just made me realize that all the Kirby characters in smash were best in their debut appearance.
Look at how they massacred my boy.
great video but sometimes the music/sfx are a lot louder than the voiceover
the sfx are at a considerably lower quality too
noted
Been one of my characters since brawl. If I had to give him two changes I see as reasonable, I’d make gordo harder to hit back, and I’d make forward throw kill at like 150.
I am convinced Sakurai makes ddd bad on purpose. Like "oh crap, he was good in brawl, better not let THAT happen again!" Then proceeds to add in min-min and kazuya and steve smh
Can you talk about how bad Melee Bowser is?
I don't see the point when Asamsauce has made a similar video. I'm not sure what I would talk about that he hasn't already but you never know I suppose. It will also likely be a little while before I upload another vid for this series as I have a couple other videos ideas, one of which is being worked on atm, and I'm working on trying not to be a chronic procrastinator.
@@demolitiongod64, ok
Take a look at Brawl and Smash 4 me
Just a fall from grace I experienced
I watched ZAKI beat MkLeo with Dedede live :)
Look how they massacred my boi 😢
:(
i know they tried to make dedede this clumsy dumbass in the smash games but unfortunately that doesn't translate well into a fighting game without making him feel horrible to play, this is the same guy that squares off against kirby and can manage to harm him. Honestly all of the kirby characters have been horribly designed since their inception
to add insult to injury, another lazy character in wario is one of the most agile heavies we have in this game so why does wario get to be good and dedede doesn't
I say this in the nicest way possible but you sound shockingly like Raymond from everyone loves Raymond.
Another reason Smash 4 is the worst one
I have a hard time arguing that it is the worst one although it might be the most "pointless" one now because of Ultimate. At least the wii U version. 3ds version had smash run which I've heard is really fun.
@@demolitiongod64 IMO it's kinda pointless arguing which Smash is the worst one.
They're all great games.
Talk about Zelda. She sucks in all games without exception
Alright lets get one thing straight, dedede was only not a low tier was the chian grav, all his other moves where serviceable, but they where not good or even top 20 for ANY OF THEM THAT WAS NOT HIS GRAB. STOP DELUDING YOURSELF, BRAWL DEDEDE WAS THE EPITOME OF LAME, IT WAS CAMP AND LIVE FOREVER BECAUSE YOY ARE FAT TILL YOU CAN HIT YOUR CHAIR GRAB.
Now ill watch the reat of the video, considering we had a major flaw in the first 4 im likely to be back here for an edit to yell more about how you are wrong and casual.
did you compete in brawl?
I mean, I never tried to make the clam that brawl dedede was fun to fight against or well designed, just that he was a much better character, which he was. While his chaingrab was his bread and butter, and he generally struggled more on characters he couldn't do it too, Brawl dedede had some other good tools like waddle dee, an uptilt with quick startup and is very strong, and back air. IDK how his back air was just "servicible."
Besides, in a lot of ways, his new moves are lacking compared to his old ones. It's not as it sm4sh dedede is just brawl dedede without his chaingrab. Sm4sh dedede got some buffs like faster ground speed but the nerfs really drag an already wounded character down.
F ddd I'm glad he got nerfed
Honestly he deserves to be trash. Such an annoyingly designed character, in hte same level as Duck Hunt