My one criticism of this arc would be that it would've been way cooler had the show established Mr Saxon earlier, and not just by name, but by already casting John Simm as a government official who occasionally got in the way of the TARDIS team without them knowing about it. Like, had he been around from Series 2 or even Series 1, it would've been fucking amazing to reveal him as the Master.
To be fair, he couldn't have existed in series 1. The tenth Doctor changes the future by deposing Harriet Jones, so he'd have to show up in episodes after The Parting of the Ways. Plus I believe he was cast as the Master thanks to Life on Mars. But it would have been really good if he featured in politician based stories like the Slitheen episodes, The Christmas Invasion, etc.
True. The twist could have been having a truly established character be revealed to be the Master, not just revealing that the Master was that guy who's been mentioned in recent episodes
The doctor set the tardis so it can only land in 2007 Britain and the end of the universe so he couldn't show up any time before that though him being mentioned in tbe run away bride is a plot hole unless it was within a year.
Well Stuart, we don’t have a cure yet. But we we do have expensive treatments that will only moderately assist and we’ll insist you’re being self destructive if you don’t go broke using them. It’s called progress.
Yeh it could focus partially around a group of government officials and civil servants who uncover documents that hint at who Saxon is during his election campaign. Because civil servants have quit a ordinary job but are at the hart of every thing it would be a refreshing departure from unit and torchwood experts whilst still remaining involved. Obviously unit should make a brief appearance but in a similar way to children of earth. The first series or two should focus on the election campaign and the subtle bingings of a dictatorship. Then the later series should be about those government officials trying to take down Saxon from the inside whilst still being in contact with the regular oppressed people off earth and mabey Martha. I dunno mabey it could happen... I think bigfinish would, they are doing a ridiculous amount of spinoffs around really obscure ends of the universe that really didn't need it. so something meaty like could be fun for them. And us. And me. Make it for me. NOW!!!!
This has potential for wry satire that RTD didn't have time or interest to explore. For a show always looking for ideas, I agree with Stu that it's weird that Doctor Who very rarely takes any time to revisit the consequences, or follow through with the implications of its existing stories. NOT for random callbacks and fanservice, but for fleshing out actual story and arcs.
Speaking as a person who had no prior experience with the master due to being too young, John Sim defined the Master for me. That crazy, mavric (somewhat cartoony) is what I thought of him until I watched some older episodes. Due to that, even though this is not anything like your classic master I will always really enjoy this 3 parter.
The 90s film has the master played the same way. But I feel like it only started to feel natural for the character when he because Missy and she had the whole 'I just want to mess with you vibe'
0:11 I love how Nathaniel is trying to cure the fan hatred tumour, it seems like something she would definitely do given she’s basically Stu’s polar opposite
I always loved John Simm perfomance in that trilogy. He was a daring and different incarnation of the Master, but I think he pulled it off. Really underrated.
The war master audios have 100 percent effected my enjoyment of Utopia. My new fear in his character that came from those stories made the 10 minutes he spent as the master in the episode terrifying. Even though I knew what happened, it scared the hell out of me because I knew what he was capable of.
Someone once pointed out to me that in Mind of Evil, a giant floaty Doctor laughing at the Master is shown to be one of the Master's biggest fears. And then, years later in Last of the Time Lords, the Doctor literally becomes giant and floats towards a cowering Master for real. Not sure that was ever intentional, but it's kinda fun.
The messiah Doctor ending gets a bit of a bad rap, but that's more to do with the way it's presented than the idea itself (Which is a very, very Seven and Ace plot). If the Doctor had been more explicit about how incredibly manipulative his plan was and the realisation of the psychically charged Doctor had been more unsettling it would have worked a lot better. Moffat definitely couldn't do high stakes finales in the same way as RTD, I think a big part of that is that Moffat wanted to raise the stakes even higher than RTD had them, but in doing so he ended up making the threats much more nebulous and what exactly would happen if the Doctor and co failed was often pretty unclear.
TheJaviferrol Don’t forget how Moffat always made the finale episodes take place in entirely different settings to one another, completely breaking the flow of the story and wasting time with establishing this new setting in almost every finale.
Samuel Davis I may be half and half on the RTD era but THIS IS WHY I BOUGHT THE DVD BOXSET The features alone were worth it and so packed full of fun ... And then after series 3 it kinda went down the drain
IMO, choosing this episode to have the return of Jack Harkness was also a nice decoy, so fans would think "Oh cool, this is the Return of Jack episode". We all ignored "Professor Old Man". We were excited about Jack. And suddenly......
As for the psychic-network resolution, here's an idea of how they could have tweaked it for it to work better: instead of the psychic energy magically restoring the Doctor, what if what happens is that the combined willpower of the human race manages to simply *reverse* the direction of the psychic field, such that the humans are now controlling the Master rather than the reverse - "I am the Master and I-and I-aah!-and I……will……obey……you--AAARGH WHAT IS THIS!". And rather than the psychic voodoo thing magically making the Doctor younger, it's simply that the Master is mind-controlled into using the laser screwdriver to reverse the damage he's done. This would not only avoid the terrible, ill-justified Jesus Doctor effect, but it would also put the Master's defeat back into the hands of humanity rather than the Doctor.
Davies was obsessed with the deus ex machina to solve his finales. Bad wolves, voids, archangel doctors. Basically he builds up apocalyptic situations then just finger snaps them away.
For all of its many problems, I remember really loving Sound Of The Drums just because of its way of taking down the Doctor lower than ever. However, the next episode was… a little disappointing. I never hated it, but it just didn't live up to Sound of Drums for me
What if the Doctor was just turned into a steaming bone-like man? Full size, but literally just thin-as-bones and barely breathing shell. You don't even have to fully show it. It would deliver a seriously scary (yet not gratuitous) moment, but give him some gravity when he emerges at the end. I never got Yoda Doctor, not even remotely. Also to fix the world of 2007 for series 4 and onwards? I genuinely think some kind of desperate parallel-world trickery or paradox machine-TARDIS consequences would've been more welcome. Just ideas. Might share a name with him, but i'm certainly no RTD.
The thing I loved about Simm's Master is how he was personally out to make The Doctor fucking SUFFER: - He steals The Doctor's TARDIS and leaves him and his friends for dead at the end of the universe with bearly as much as a "I'm back, bitch!" - He takes over the UK and makes him Public Enemy No. 1 - He ages and imprisons him and his friends and makes them watch as he subjugates the Earth for a year, breaking the timeline - He weaponises the human race into the Toclafane and claims The Doctor's favourite species as "the greatest monsters of all" - He refuses to regenerate and fucking dies in his arms out of spite - He turns the human race into himself to personally get at The Doctor, aiming to do the same to the Time Lords - He manipulates his best friend and turns her into a Cyberman while he's not looking and then proceeds to bully her constantly. - He shrugs off The Doctor's plea to stay and help - He's disgusted by Missy's complete lack of a hate boner for The Doctor (pun not intended) - He refuses The Doctor's help and friendship at every turn because by this point in their relationship, they're not friendly rivals anymore. They spent the 80's actively trying to kill each other and by the time the Time War started, he had become the most vicious version of himself yet, but skipped the war out of fear, leaving The Doctor had to deal with it and ended up traumatised and alone for it. Now that The Master's back, when he hears the Time Lords are gone, he hears "No one can stop me from doing whatever the fuck I like and The Doctor's too soft to kill me now". 10 wants his friend back, but he couldn't give 2 shits. TBH I don't even mind the OTT performance, I just love this angel of it.
I actually love this story and find it to be an underrated finale. I'll admit part of it is nostalgia and I think Last of the Time Lords is significantly weaker but I do enjoy Martha fighting desperately against a broken world being the only one left fighting and think the episode has a lot of strong elements. Even if it is far fetched I do find the Master being defeated by prayer to be a fitting ending that really works. But the Doctor turning into Dobby and having superpowers is silly as is the way time is reversed. But I love the way the Master takes over earth and becomes Prime Minister with the Doctor and his companions in an unwinnable scenario and the way he tortures Martha's family and makes them suffer is truly cruel and makes the story rather hopeless. The story has layers of intriguing mystery which I still find it interesting to discover. Its brilliant with the Master having already won and its fascinating and cunning in the way he seduces earth. I love seeing him at the centre of an evil dictatorship and the story really shows the consequences of a world living under the fear and rule of the Master. John Simm is amazing and still my favourite incarnation of the Master. Even though it's gone slightly down in my enjoyment over time it will always be a story I really like
It's like the end of "Superman" where Lois is dead, half of California is in the ocean and tons of people are dead. Then, the hero turns back time and fixes everything.
I love doctor who when the doctor loses. Or isn't there. Nothing against the character obviously I just like bleak hopelessness. Speaking of bleak hopeless please please please do a review of "children of earth"
I've always found this trilogy easier to swallow than Tennant's finale eps, but if a few things had been tweaked and Jacobi had honestly stayed on as The Master, I think this could've been a whole lot better. Nothing against John Simm, he did as well as he could with the material and direction, but Jacobi is way more "The Master" to me.
SpikesGirl1 We should just have more Jacobi in general, like imagine if he faced off against John Hurt's war doctor in an audio book or in the Day of the Doctor I'm a selfish person but like it would've been amazing
@@kingcrimson1467 I don't think that's a selfish idea at all! Honestly surprised nobody over at Big Finish thought of that, even as a "what if?" scenario.
SpikesGirl1 It doesn't even need to be a What-if story because it could easily fit into the massive mess of Doctor Who's continuity by some wibbly wombbly timey wimey effects and some influx of artron energy changing the flow of the chrono-neutrons
Doctor Dobby was a seriously missed opportunity to bring back the concept of a decaying timelord from the deadly assassin. We’ve seen the Master in that state, would’ve been amazing if the doctor was also given a decaying incarnation for that one episode. Would also be more cathartic for the master and give him more motivation for doing it as he’s been through the same
John Simm is my favourite incarnation of The Master. For me, he’s strikes the right balance. This is what the character should be: disarmingly silly while also dangerously unstable. RTD also, in my opinion, gives The Master the best send off his character’s ever gotten. There’s no cliched sentimentality or last minute regrets. The Master just dies with a smile, knowing that he’s finally beaten The Doctor. Absolute perfection. For me anyway.
Aparently john simm wanted to play the master more like previous incarnations and even wanted the goatee, but RTD pushed for a more Joker like master instead
I think maybe they could've rectified some of The Master's slow takeover of Earth by maybe adding more than just a curt mention of "VOTE SAXON!" throughout Series 3, by showcasing a few more scenes on Earth with Martha's family akin to how some of those Government Agents were monitoring her mother. Or failing that just a brief scene of a TV ad showing off those Vote Saxon commercials you got brief glimpses of in The Sound of Drums. The finale used to be one of my favorites, but I do agree that the ending feels very handwaved away which I've somewhat come to accept to a certain extent, but that being said I would've liked to have at least seen some fallout from The Master's takeover, but I think by this point RTD probably knew that Series 4 was gonna be his last and figured he wouldn't wanna leave The Moff with any excess baggage from his era. The Space Jesus thing I honestly kinda like in retrospect since it gave us the much needed gem Waters of Mars in terms of taking the 10th Doctor's ego down a peg and showing how dangerous he could be when left unchecked, which is a far more effective character arc than "The Doctor gets beaten up while John Simm hams it up to the sounds of Voodoo Child"
I've been fairly positive about LOTL because whenever I rewatch it it seems clear to me that RTD is writing the key moments of the story as those between the Doctor and the Master. You're absolutely right to talk about how this episode is essentially the Master torturing his ex-friend for a year, which is why I think the infamous 'space jesus' moment works. It's a direct call back to The Mind of Evil where the Master's greatest fear is seeing the Doctor dominate him, and so that moment is literally his worst nightmare. Even more traumatic is that the Doctor, in all his never be cruel never be cowardly santicmoniousness, actually forgives him! That leads beautifully into the REAL climax of the story (the time reversal is a plot resolution not the climax) - the Masters death. The Master has the victort by denying the Doctor the one thing he really needs at this point, another Time Lord, a friend. Tennants acting when he begs the Master to regenerate is wonderful and the pyre scene is the real end to the story, with everything after working as coda. It's not perfect, but it's an excellent attempt to write Doctor/Master in a complex way without a mere nemesis opposition like in the Davison era.
I personally think that this is the best Tennant finale. Doomsday, while good (in fact, being the only RTD finale that didn't have a Deus-Ex Machina), had a few flaws like the Daleks being overpowered and the 10/Rose stuff at the beach really bogged it down, and Journey's End was a absolute mess even with the Stolen Earth doing a fantastic build-up. The gripes that I have with the story are the resolution to the conflict (I argue that 10 isn't as much of a Space Jesus as much as people make him out to be, but this is definitely a case), and that Captain Jack doesn't have much to do in the story. Besides that, I do love the story for my second favourite NewWho Series, and I would argue the most consistently great series of NewWho.
English Giraffe surely it does have a deus ex machina? I.e. sucking all the Daleks and cybermen into the void? However, at least it didn’t wipe the slate clean like in “last of the time lords” (with numerous dead/missing and Torchwood disbanded. In any case the best New who finale is Parting of the ways imo. The deus ex machina (I.e. Super Rose) actually turning out to be a causality loop set up via Bad Wolf since early in the series validates it’s use.
@@cjmcc5231 the main deus ex machine comes from Rose's (alternate!) dad somehow knowing exactly what is happening in the other universe, then teleporting right in front of the void-hole and somehow not being pulled in.
Zarrg Good point. Thats another example and aspect that bugs me too. Why couldn’t RTD have written that she presses her own button just before she reaches the wall? The questions that arise as to how Pete knew exactly when and where to appear is ridiculous. But the idea of sucking them into the void indiscriminately is a deus ex machina unto itself.
The first time I watched Last of the Time Lords, I had been really certain the Chameleon Arch in the Fob Watch would come into play. Between its use in Human Nature/Family of Blood and how it released the Master in Utopia, it seemed like the set-up was there for it to being the key to bringing him down. I figured the good guys use it to make the Master human (perhaps truly making him Harold Simm or Yana again) and the Doctor has to grapple with whether or destroy the innocent man he now is, or risk the potential for the Master to be unleashed given the damage he's already done. No doubt with the heartbreaking fear of John Smith's final moments in his mind and all this on top of the fact that either decision will mean the Doctor is once again the Last of the Time Lords. I don't know how well that would have actually worked and you'd still have the pat ending of time reversal to deal with, but it would have been interesting.
Maybe instead of aging him with the laser screwdriver, the Master could’ve modified his chameleon arch to lobotomise the Doctor in some form (I.e. disabling his motor functions and leaving him wheelchair bound, or outright turning the doctor into a mindless drone performing his bidding). That way, the psychic network solution makes a little more sense sense, as it’s directly restoring the Doctor’s mind/personality, rather than de-aging his physical form.
I think it's fair to say that the Toclafane are very similar to another entity the Master encountered in a, canonically, earlier story, the Sky Men from the first War Master boxset. In that story, the Master saves a man named Cole, who wanted to save at least one planet destined to die from the effects of the Time War, but in his earnest and noble intent to give the humans of the planet he wanted to save hope, he created something far worse. The Iso, much like the Toclafane, were presented with events that were hopeless and would have led to their extinction, but then came this outsider who promised to help them. They make suits that protect them, but they are also augmented mentally, making them remorseless and bloodthirsty, the Iso being emotionally lobotomised to stop them from feeling distress and then they later come to the conclusion that all alien life must die as it was alien life that waged the Time War and caused their planet to die, whereas the Toclafane were regressed to an infantile mentality with no concept of morality or consequence. Interest fact, the Toclafane were originally going to feature in Series 1 of the revival, with their debut being the episode that later became "Dalek". Until negotiations secured use of the Daleks from the estate of Terry Nation, whom legally own them, it was originally written that the enemy of that episode was going to be a partly cybernetic monster that had no concept of morality and killed all those around it in childlike glee.
I bloody love this three parter, and in my opinion is some of the best stuff in the whole show. I even like the end! What's weird is that I always thought the middle episode was called "The Sound of the Drums" until last year.
Man, that closing line is just spectacular and I wish more people took that stance because then we'd have way less bitching and a bit more constructive criticism. I think.
I do definitely agree. There should be an episode between the sound of drums and last of the time lords. With Mather on earth looking for the weapon. Would of been very interesting to see how she got out of the situations she was in.
Bit late but the story of Martha kinda counted as part 2.5 and finding it in a charity shop, buying and reading retroactively improved last of the timelords for me granted that could also be nostalgia talking
The concept for Utopia was always a big draw for me: humans at the end of the universe are seeking the source of a signal with a name that can be translated as "no place." And Derek Jacobi as The Master. I'm glad Big Finish did more with this incarnation.
I didn't have any issues with this finale when it aired, but I was 10 at the time, and spent less time on the internet in a month back then than I do in a day now, so I knew nothing of the fandom's hate of it.
I despise the resolution to this. I always feel like in a way RTD writing the people of the Earth praying to the Doctor and him flying around with a halo was him saying "David Tenannt has become like a divinity for fans" (still think being the 1st Nu Doctor who stuck around makes him incredibilly overrated) and even so: they could have just destroyed the Machine and have him go young again when time reversed back instead of that Deus ex Machina scene
I never realized how cool it would be to have a whole series dedicated to the Master slowly taking power and the Doctor leading resistance against him.
I can remember my first instance of franchise fatigue with Doctor Who. I think it was between series 3 and 4 that it started, and was in large part due to how I felt the Daleks were being overused and were fast becoming Mary Sue characters - Dalek was a decent enough episode that it is still enjoyable nearly 15 years later, because it touched on a concept that Classic Who never could - the idea that the Daleks were extinct, and this species, whose whole purpose is to kill to prove itself superior to all life, having to come to terms with the fact that there was nothing left to fight for. But every episode after that, they were being sold as being unstoppable, indestructible, that nothing could possibly stop them this time, but then along comes some kind of Deus Ex Machina that just felt penned in at the last moment to just resolve the problem. Also how every series became formulaic to the point where you couldn't get invested or genuinely emotional when something happened, because there were set points in the series where characters had to be introduced and when they had to depart, and the continuity department cannot keep a secret to save their lives.
I really, really love Utopia and the Sound of Drums. Utopia was an incredibly intense and emotional rewatch for me (I’ve been going through the new series again and just finished series 3), probably due to my greater knowledge of the history of the show and just paying better attention to the overarching plot that started with a throwaway line in the Runaway Bride than I did when I was 12. Also the imminent heat death of the universe is a really cool and dark setting. The Sound of Drums is pretty much “Doctor Who goes political thriller” and I really like that. It’s got a really big scale and I think it’s handled well, plus I do enjoy John Simm’s Master. Last of the Time Lords, on the other hand… I don’t hate it, I enjoy it overall, but the resolution is really cheesy even for this show. Also resetting everything to a year is an easy out. Overall I really like this finale but it does have its problems and I still think Bad Wolf/the Parting of the Ways is the best of the RTD finales.
Firstly love your doctor who reviews and would certainly watch a look back at all them. Ive never really thought about the fact RTD kind of put himself into a corner he couldnt really get out of. I suppose that is the risk with big finalies. I do feel the show does not do well with consequences and its one of the reasons I hate the ending of lie of the land as everyone iust forgets conviently. I seem to be one of a few who really likes rings of akhaten but the ending just doesnt sit right. The doctor basically destroys their religion and then buggers off. As for this episode it just felt like the old troupe and they woke up and it was just a dream which is a shame as i enjoyed most of it. RTD always seemed to be great at starting something but then bad at ending to me. I do also agree that id prefer to see what happened inbetween the last 2 episodes. When the show does things like this im left thinking well did nothing much happen especially if it was a year
I feel like if big finish heard your idea episodes in between Utopia, the sound of drums, and the last of the time Lords, their spines with start chilling...
For me the biggest problem was I heard Big Finish's Singularity. A lot of similar concepts, but due to it being a four parter, it paces it's self better. It wasn't the worst tenth doctor story, but there are more enjoyable ways to spend a couple of hours ie watching Midnight (modern Who's finest hour?) instead.
Singularity was meh at best. There is no way Fifth Doctor (or any other really) would let Time Lords go into another universe with "worthy races" and abandon humanity.
@@kimba4962 Sorry you didn't like it. I personally think that the Time Lords, with their no interference policy would be more than happy to escape the end of the universe. Would the Doctor agree with them? Well, considering how the last remaining creatures acted, I could see some Doctors accepting that humanity has run its course. That's the thing about subjective art, we are both absolutely right in our opinions. Thanks for the reply.
@@garymurden6146 yeah I get that point, but in that story humanity acted that way BECAUSE Doctor abandoned them. I can understand Doctor accepting end of the universe and letting everything die, it's part of the natural way of time and universe. I can maybe even imagine him being fine with Time Lords escaping into another universe. But the story implies Time Lords selected "worthy" races to take along with them, and Doctor presumably is fine with Time Lords (whom he aware to be corrupt and incompetent at best) of all people deciding who's worthy to survive end of the universe and countinue to exist. Maybe if Singularity actually bothered to explore the subject, but as it is, story just doesn't work for me.
@@kimba4962 Another way of thinking about it is they (the non humanoid remains of humanity) mention that this is an early incarnation of the Doctor. It is perfectly feasible for the Doctor to be dead by the time the Time Lords reach the decision that this, dead end of humanity, is non desirable. Remember how they wanted the Daleks removed from the time line, so if they thought another species could become a threat they probably would act in a similar way. Basically I think this story is an eight and from your comments, I would guess a four. That's perfectly fine. I have no doubt that there are numerous stories that you prefer that I don't particularly care for. I remember once saying that Daemons was average, especially compared to The Mind of evil. Different strokes for different folks. If you have a Big Finish story that you can recommend I would be interested.
I think this is the inherent issue you come into with high stakes stories set in current day earth. Set a story 10, 000 years in the future or on some colony planet and you can get away with doing almost anything to the planet but that would be difficult to write and produce. I didn't even mind the time reversal idea (at least they didn't have a literal reset button like... *that* episode), I just felt that they could have made it that wresting of control more of a challenge for the heroes. Maybe have the Doctor going to rescue the Tardis (rather than Jack just blowing up some stuff to fix it), and the two Timelords having a desperate fight in the console room while the others try to hold off the spheres somehow. Something that where there is still actual tension.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here except for me the ending does kind of ruin it for me. I still appreciate the first two episodes as great telly but probably the thing from new who I dislike most is this whole space Jesus bollocks and the whole magic prayer to the Doctor to defeat the master and the very unsubtle Christ imagery in that scene rub me so far the wrong way it deflates the whole experience. I get that they needed a cop out ending with the stakes that high but to that I say either don't have the stakes that high, set it in the future or in a parallel universe or have it on a different planet like say a colony planet as then the consequences don't have to be dealt with as much as when its present day earth. Although I do get that it may not hit as hard if it wasn't contemporary. But I do admire the ambition and the story on paper bar the ending looks great they just need to tone down the master 100% and completely rework how it ends and it'd be great but those two for me ruin the experience.
I also remember how much of a fuss fans kicked up about LOTTL, especially on forums at the time. Tinkerbell Floaty Jesus Doctor became a meme before memes were a thing. And some people went nuts over the 'Face of Boe' turning out to be Jack.
I mean there is the story of Martha which fills in the 1 year gap a bit but its a book and people shouldnt have to go out and buy a book to enjoy the full thing. I still like this finale better than finales like the wedding of River song but it's a subjective view point so take it with a pinch of salt
There's also a short story called "The Story of Martha" which is set during The Year That Never Was. Sadly never got around to reading it, but I wonder if it bridges the gap between episodes in the way you'd like, Stuart.
WHY wasnt the Deus ex Machina linked back to the Shakespeare code? We have already established that the power of words exists.... so with everyone saying the doctors name at once makes sense as to why he would have gone super sayan
I was a kid when this came out so I had no idea who the master was and was horrified to see the doctor lose its not as good looking back but now but it's still one of my favourite stories
As much as I agree with you I cannot stress how much of a horrible piece of Doctor Who the Doctor being tortured and twisted into an old man was if you were four years old.
Sebastian G. Yeah that’s bad but I didn’t fully understand the concept when I was 4 and seeing my childhood hero being tortured like that was a lot more noticeable and disturbing than the Toclafane.
In regards to your comment at the beginning, a bug bear of mine especially recently in the Doctor Who fandom is the belief that Politics wasn't a key element of the show before series 9. So when they announced that series 12 was going to be more like the previous two eras it meant nothing to me as Doctor Who has been stuck in a repetitive cycle since 2005. Parodies of Political figures, The Doctor being judgemental and on the nose references to topical events are both aspects of classic and New who. So anyone screaming for the return of Russell is in reality causing what they hate.
Things I would've changed(aside from what you've already mentioned): 1: Make Derek Jacobi the villain of the story. Master of Callous feels like an improved version of Sound Of Drums and Last Of The Time Lords. He's far more menacing than bat-shit crazy Simms will ever be. 2: Give the Toclofane more screentime. You already mentioned this. 2.5: Remove the Toclofane entirely. Their existence is a paradox that necessitates the solution like you said. Instead, make it a political drama about the Master single-handedly turning the UK into a dictatorship and our 3 heroes are on the run. No deifying the Doctor. Sadly, this would also prevent the Doctor's capture. 3: Cut the wife. She had very little impact on the story. 4: Have the Master survive the story. This would also change End of Time. John Simms' Master would debut in End of Time, having been forced to regenerate to conceal himself from the likes of UNIT and Torchwood. Then rewrite the entirety of End of Time. His portrayal in World Enough And Time and The Doctor Falls really reminded me of the Sam Kisgart Master from Sympathy For The Devil. Make Simm's Master like that instead of bringing back the drums. 5: Instead of the Master conquring the world, he uses the Archangel Network to hypnotize the entire planet, including other politicians in power, essentially creating puppet governments.
I was rewatching this with my friend, who is watching DW for the first time, I realized the flaws in the episodes. But I also appreciated the epicness of the episode because of how starved I've been by the recent seasons.
The sound of drums/last of the time lords could have worked for a regeneration story. The doctor is a wanted man. What if he hides himself by regenerating.
Hoooo... Definitely still on rewatch this ending disappoints. Hell Bent and Time of the Doctor and... EVERY Moffat finale still looks amazing to me after Last of the Time Lords. The trilogy here starts amazing, falls apart near the end of part two, and not only never recovers but gets so, so much worse in part three. The Story of Martha Who novel is the great missing episode too, by the way.
Of course, anyone who remembered just who played the Master in his last recorded appearance in "Scream of the Shalka" kinda had the reveal spoiled for them.
That missing part between The Sound of Drums and The Last of The Time Lords is called 'The Story of Martha'. It was meant to be a TV story but they didn't have time to make it, so Dan Abnett, with David Roden, Steve Lockley, Robert Shearman, Paul Lewis, and Simon Jowett, turned it into a novel for BBC Books. I'm joking, of course, but I saw the opportunity to make a joke and took it.
My one criticism of this arc would be that it would've been way cooler had the show established Mr Saxon earlier, and not just by name, but by already casting John Simm as a government official who occasionally got in the way of the TARDIS team without them knowing about it. Like, had he been around from Series 2 or even Series 1, it would've been fucking amazing to reveal him as the Master.
^^THIS
To be fair, he couldn't have existed in series 1. The tenth Doctor changes the future by deposing Harriet Jones, so he'd have to show up in episodes after The Parting of the Ways. Plus I believe he was cast as the Master thanks to Life on Mars.
But it would have been really good if he featured in politician based stories like the Slitheen episodes, The Christmas Invasion, etc.
True. The twist could have been having a truly established character be revealed to be the Master, not just revealing that the Master was that guy who's been mentioned in recent episodes
The doctor set the tardis so it can only land in 2007 Britain and the end of the universe so he couldn't show up any time before that though him being mentioned in tbe run away bride is a plot hole unless it was within a year.
Well Stuart, we don’t have a cure yet. But we we do have expensive treatments that will only moderately assist and we’ll insist you’re being self destructive if you don’t go broke using them. It’s called progress.
Council of Geeks we do have a cure
It’s called a bullet
Big finish spin off
"Saxons Britain"
Big Finish could totally make a series with Saxon Master. I'd listen the shit out of whatever they'd do with him.
Yes, yes and a million times yes
Yeh it could focus partially around a group of government officials and civil servants who uncover documents that hint at who Saxon is during his election campaign. Because civil servants have quit a ordinary job but are at the hart of every thing it would be a refreshing departure from unit and torchwood experts whilst still remaining involved. Obviously unit should make a brief appearance but in a similar way to children of earth.
The first series or two should focus on the election campaign and the subtle bingings of a dictatorship. Then the later series should be about those government officials trying to take down Saxon from the inside whilst still being in contact with the regular oppressed people off earth and mabey Martha.
I dunno mabey it could happen... I think bigfinish would, they are doing a ridiculous amount of spinoffs around really obscure ends of the universe that really didn't need it. so something meaty like could be fun for them. And us. And me. Make it for me. NOW!!!!
This has potential for wry satire that RTD didn't have time or interest to explore. For a show always looking for ideas, I agree with Stu that it's weird that Doctor Who very rarely takes any time to revisit the consequences, or follow through with the implications of its existing stories. NOT for random callbacks and fanservice, but for fleshing out actual story and arcs.
Speaking as a person who had no prior experience with the master due to being too young, John Sim defined the Master for me. That crazy, mavric (somewhat cartoony) is what I thought of him until I watched some older episodes. Due to that, even though this is not anything like your classic master I will always really enjoy this 3 parter.
The 90s film has the master played the same way. But I feel like it only started to feel natural for the character when he because Missy and she had the whole 'I just want to mess with you vibe'
You(the monk three parter)
The guy she tells you not to worry about (the master three parter)
I think (mostly due to Jacobi) Yana being the Master is probably one of the best New Who twists ever ??
If you havent, you should hear him in the War Master boxsets of BF. He up there with Delgado
TheJaviferrol too late
I’ve got War Master 3 ep 4 to go
@@iain9757 Im waiting for it on the mail
Thank goodness for Big Finish.
I'm only halfway through War Master 3, but it's been good so far.
0:11 I love how Nathaniel is trying to cure the fan hatred tumour, it seems like something she would definitely do given she’s basically Stu’s polar opposite
I always loved John Simm perfomance in that trilogy. He was a daring and different incarnation of the Master, but I think he pulled it off.
Really underrated.
The war master audios have 100 percent effected my enjoyment of Utopia. My new fear in his character that came from those stories made the 10 minutes he spent as the master in the episode terrifying. Even though I knew what happened, it scared the hell out of me because I knew what he was capable of.
I need to listen to those!
He should have been the master it angers me that they wasted Jacobi one of the best actors in Britain
Someone once pointed out to me that in Mind of Evil, a giant floaty Doctor laughing at the Master is shown to be one of the Master's biggest fears. And then, years later in Last of the Time Lords, the Doctor literally becomes giant and floats towards a cowering Master for real. Not sure that was ever intentional, but it's kinda fun.
When you talked about how there should've been more episodes, I can't help but wish they'd titled one "The Saxon Master Plan"
"The Master Saxon Plan".
It would be cool if the Toclafane ever come back, your video has made me realise just how dark and interesting they were.
The messiah Doctor ending gets a bit of a bad rap, but that's more to do with the way it's presented than the idea itself (Which is a very, very Seven and Ace plot). If the Doctor had been more explicit about how incredibly manipulative his plan was and the realisation of the psychically charged Doctor had been more unsettling it would have worked a lot better.
Moffat definitely couldn't do high stakes finales in the same way as RTD, I think a big part of that is that Moffat wanted to raise the stakes even higher than RTD had them, but in doing so he ended up making the threats much more nebulous and what exactly would happen if the Doctor and co failed was often pretty unclear.
Moffat just did over 20 minutes of Doctor and companion indulging in soppy dialogue about how much of a hero he is each finale.
TheJaviferrol Don’t forget how Moffat always made the finale episodes take place in entirely different settings to one another, completely breaking the flow of the story and wasting time with establishing this new setting in almost every finale.
It's funny re-watching this and realising OH MY GOD MARTHA TEAMED UP WITH THE DEVIL TO FIGHT THE MASTER
While Vivienne Rook is talking sense.
The best thing about The Last of the Time Lords is the commentary with David,Freema and John who maybe had a bit too much to drink before recording ?
I am flocking to my DVD copy immediately. Thanks for the reminder that this exists!
Samuel Davis
I may be half and half on the RTD era but THIS IS WHY I BOUGHT THE DVD BOXSET
The features alone were worth it and so packed full of fun ...
And then after series 3 it kinda went down the drain
@@iain9757 I don't know. Series 4 came with the Confidentials didn't it? Those are always great!
My favourite Russell finale. Yes, the resolution is awful, but it's way more interesting than the other ones.
Yes vivian, we've heard of you
Honestly, filling in the blanks with a Part 2 and 4 would be a great premise for a couple of Big Finish radio dramas.
IMO, choosing this episode to have the return of Jack Harkness was also a nice decoy, so fans would think "Oh cool, this is the Return of Jack episode". We all ignored "Professor Old Man". We were excited about Jack. And suddenly......
As for the psychic-network resolution, here's an idea of how they could have tweaked it for it to work better: instead of the psychic energy magically restoring the Doctor, what if what happens is that the combined willpower of the human race manages to simply *reverse* the direction of the psychic field, such that the humans are now controlling the Master rather than the reverse - "I am the Master and I-and I-aah!-and I……will……obey……you--AAARGH WHAT IS THIS!".
And rather than the psychic voodoo thing magically making the Doctor younger, it's simply that the Master is mind-controlled into using the laser screwdriver to reverse the damage he's done.
This would not only avoid the terrible, ill-justified Jesus Doctor effect, but it would also put the Master's defeat back into the hands of humanity rather than the Doctor.
Davies was obsessed with the deus ex machina to solve his finales. Bad wolves, voids, archangel doctors. Basically he builds up apocalyptic situations then just finger snaps them away.
I was fully expecting you to tear this one apart. This - by your standards - was surprisingly positive
For all of its many problems, I remember really loving Sound Of The Drums just because of its way of taking down the Doctor lower than ever. However, the next episode was… a little disappointing. I never hated it, but it just didn't live up to Sound of Drums for me
What if the Doctor was just turned into a steaming bone-like man? Full size, but literally just thin-as-bones and barely breathing shell. You don't even have to fully show it. It would deliver a seriously scary (yet not gratuitous) moment, but give him some gravity when he emerges at the end. I never got Yoda Doctor, not even remotely.
Also to fix the world of 2007 for series 4 and onwards? I genuinely think some kind of desperate parallel-world trickery or paradox machine-TARDIS consequences would've been more welcome. Just ideas. Might share a name with him, but i'm certainly no RTD.
"paradox-machine TARDIS consequences"
but... that's what happens... the paradox machine is broken and thus the paradox collapses in on itself.
Rushy but there’s no lasting consequences for that serial going onwards. Just an idea to make it feel a little less magic.
@@SamyulDavis There's never any lasting consequences in any Earth invasion story that's ever happened.
Rushy No, lasting consequences for the Doctor & the TARDIS/team like say... the creeping Four Knocks or the ramifications of the Charley arc.
@@SamyulDavis He lost Martha as a direct result of that story and saw her become a militaristic oppurtunist by the end of his run.
Jacobi as Yana, dragging The Doctor with him makes me think this is how The Doctor and Master were as kids
Great review. One of my favourite stories. The Toclafane reveal is one of Whos greatest moments.
I kinda think Turn Left was more a blueprint than this for Years and years
I think its multiple episodes used for years and years, even torchwood children of earth is similar
The thing I loved about Simm's Master is how he was personally out to make The Doctor fucking SUFFER:
- He steals The Doctor's TARDIS and leaves him and his friends for dead at the end of the universe with bearly as much as a "I'm back, bitch!"
- He takes over the UK and makes him Public Enemy No. 1
- He ages and imprisons him and his friends and makes them watch as he subjugates the Earth for a year, breaking the timeline
- He weaponises the human race into the Toclafane and claims The Doctor's favourite species as "the greatest monsters of all"
- He refuses to regenerate and fucking dies in his arms out of spite
- He turns the human race into himself to personally get at The Doctor, aiming to do the same to the Time Lords
- He manipulates his best friend and turns her into a Cyberman while he's not looking and then proceeds to bully her constantly.
- He shrugs off The Doctor's plea to stay and help
- He's disgusted by Missy's complete lack of a hate boner for The Doctor (pun not intended)
- He refuses The Doctor's help and friendship at every turn because by this point in their relationship, they're not friendly rivals anymore. They spent the 80's actively trying to kill each other and by the time the Time War started, he had become the most vicious version of himself yet, but skipped the war out of fear, leaving The Doctor had to deal with it and ended up traumatised and alone for it. Now that The Master's back, when he hears the Time Lords are gone, he hears "No one can stop me from doing whatever the fuck I like and The Doctor's too soft to kill me now". 10 wants his friend back, but he couldn't give 2 shits.
TBH I don't even mind the OTT performance, I just love this angel of it.
I actually love this story and find it to be an underrated finale. I'll admit part of it is nostalgia and I think Last of the Time Lords is significantly weaker but I do enjoy Martha fighting desperately against a broken world being the only one left fighting and think the episode has a lot of strong elements. Even if it is far fetched I do find the Master being defeated by prayer to be a fitting ending that really works. But the Doctor turning into Dobby and having superpowers is silly as is the way time is reversed. But I love the way the Master takes over earth and becomes Prime Minister with the Doctor and his companions in an unwinnable scenario and the way he tortures Martha's family and makes them suffer is truly cruel and makes the story rather hopeless. The story has layers of intriguing mystery which I still find it interesting to discover. Its brilliant with the Master having already won and its fascinating and cunning in the way he seduces earth. I love seeing him at the centre of an evil dictatorship and the story really shows the consequences of a world living under the fear and rule of the Master. John Simm is amazing and still my favourite incarnation of the Master. Even though it's gone slightly down in my enjoyment over time it will always be a story I really like
It's like the end of "Superman" where Lois is dead, half of California is in the ocean and tons of people are dead. Then, the hero turns back time and fixes everything.
Perfectly timed vid, since I'm listening to the outright amazing War Master audios
Also Malcom Tucker should have been there to scream at the masters.
Another bigfinish spinoff????
EAT THE CHEESE,,MASTER!!
I love doctor who when the doctor loses. Or isn't there. Nothing against the character obviously I just like bleak hopelessness. Speaking of bleak hopeless please please please do a review of "children of earth"
I *love* this episode
a lot, but the resolution always bugged me. it's a bit silly.
also I had no idea that woman was called Vivian Rooke!
I've always found this trilogy easier to swallow than Tennant's finale eps, but if a few things had been tweaked and Jacobi had honestly stayed on as The Master, I think this could've been a whole lot better. Nothing against John Simm, he did as well as he could with the material and direction, but Jacobi is way more "The Master" to me.
SpikesGirl1 We should just have more Jacobi in general, like imagine if he faced off against John Hurt's war doctor in an audio book or in the Day of the Doctor I'm a selfish person but like it would've been amazing
@@kingcrimson1467 I don't think that's a selfish idea at all! Honestly surprised nobody over at Big Finish thought of that, even as a "what if?" scenario.
SpikesGirl1 It doesn't even need to be a What-if story because it could easily fit into the massive mess of Doctor Who's continuity by some wibbly wombbly timey wimey effects and some influx of artron energy changing the flow of the chrono-neutrons
@@kingcrimson1467 lol Yeah, good point.
@@CrazyBuffyFan1 you must be happy now
no matter what anybody says to me about these episodes, the Utopia reveal will always be great
‘Wandering around quarries jabbering about how important everything is’
Huh...Dr actually hasn’t changed that much over the years, has it?
Doctor Dobby was a seriously missed opportunity to bring back the concept of a decaying timelord from the deadly assassin. We’ve seen the Master in that state, would’ve been amazing if the doctor was also given a decaying incarnation for that one episode. Would also be more cathartic for the master and give him more motivation for doing it as he’s been through the same
John Simm is my favourite incarnation of The Master. For me, he’s strikes the right balance. This is what the character should be: disarmingly silly while also dangerously unstable. RTD also, in my opinion, gives The Master the best send off his character’s ever gotten. There’s no cliched sentimentality or last minute regrets. The Master just dies with a smile, knowing that he’s finally beaten The Doctor. Absolute perfection. For me anyway.
Miles Heron so for 18 ish years the Master wasn’t the Master
Iain 97 That wasn’t what I was trying to say. You can like other versions (I do), but this is my favourite.
YANA being you are not alone straight up fucked my mind
Aparently john simm wanted to play the master more like previous incarnations and even wanted the goatee, but RTD pushed for a more Joker like master instead
Jackson Co yes I’ve heard this too
gj russell
I think maybe they could've rectified some of The Master's slow takeover of Earth by maybe adding more than just a curt mention of "VOTE SAXON!" throughout Series 3, by showcasing a few more scenes on Earth with Martha's family akin to how some of those Government Agents were monitoring her mother.
Or failing that just a brief scene of a TV ad showing off those Vote Saxon commercials you got brief glimpses of in The Sound of Drums.
The finale used to be one of my favorites, but I do agree that the ending feels very handwaved away which I've somewhat come to accept to a certain extent, but that being said I would've liked to have at least seen some fallout from The Master's takeover, but I think by this point RTD probably knew that Series 4 was gonna be his last and figured he wouldn't wanna leave The Moff with any excess baggage from his era.
The Space Jesus thing I honestly kinda like in retrospect since it gave us the much needed gem Waters of Mars in terms of taking the 10th Doctor's ego down a peg and showing how dangerous he could be when left unchecked, which is a far more effective character arc than "The Doctor gets beaten up while John Simm hams it up to the sounds of Voodoo Child"
I’ll hold that time of the Doctor was amazing
I've been fairly positive about LOTL because whenever I rewatch it it seems clear to me that RTD is writing the key moments of the story as those between the Doctor and the Master. You're absolutely right to talk about how this episode is essentially the Master torturing his ex-friend for a year, which is why I think the infamous 'space jesus' moment works. It's a direct call back to The Mind of Evil where the Master's greatest fear is seeing the Doctor dominate him, and so that moment is literally his worst nightmare. Even more traumatic is that the Doctor, in all his never be cruel never be cowardly santicmoniousness, actually forgives him!
That leads beautifully into the REAL climax of the story (the time reversal is a plot resolution not the climax) - the Masters death. The Master has the victort by denying the Doctor the one thing he really needs at this point, another Time Lord, a friend. Tennants acting when he begs the Master to regenerate is wonderful and the pyre scene is the real end to the story, with everything after working as coda.
It's not perfect, but it's an excellent attempt to write Doctor/Master in a complex way without a mere nemesis opposition like in the Davison era.
I really wish Jacobi was the main master for sound of drums and last of timelords and regenerated at the end
I personally think that this is the best Tennant finale. Doomsday, while good (in fact, being the only RTD finale that didn't have a Deus-Ex Machina), had a few flaws like the Daleks being overpowered and the 10/Rose stuff at the beach really bogged it down, and Journey's End was a absolute mess even with the Stolen Earth doing a fantastic build-up. The gripes that I have with the story are the resolution to the conflict (I argue that 10 isn't as much of a Space Jesus as much as people make him out to be, but this is definitely a case), and that Captain Jack doesn't have much to do in the story. Besides that, I do love the story for my second favourite NewWho Series, and I would argue the most consistently great series of NewWho.
English Giraffe surely it does have a deus ex machina? I.e. sucking all the Daleks and cybermen into the void? However, at least it didn’t wipe the slate clean like in “last of the time lords” (with numerous dead/missing and Torchwood disbanded.
In any case the best New who finale is Parting of the ways imo. The deus ex machina (I.e. Super Rose) actually turning out to be a causality loop set up via Bad Wolf since early in the series validates it’s use.
@@cjmcc5231 the main deus ex machine comes from Rose's (alternate!) dad somehow knowing exactly what is happening in the other universe, then teleporting right in front of the void-hole and somehow not being pulled in.
Zarrg Good point. Thats another example and aspect that bugs me too. Why couldn’t RTD have written that she presses her own button just before she reaches the wall? The questions that arise as to how Pete knew exactly when and where to appear is ridiculous.
But the idea of sucking them into the void indiscriminately is a deus ex machina unto itself.
The first time I watched Last of the Time Lords, I had been really certain the Chameleon Arch in the Fob Watch would come into play. Between its use in Human Nature/Family of Blood and how it released the Master in Utopia, it seemed like the set-up was there for it to being the key to bringing him down.
I figured the good guys use it to make the Master human (perhaps truly making him Harold Simm or Yana again) and the Doctor has to grapple with whether or destroy the innocent man he now is, or risk the potential for the Master to be unleashed given the damage he's already done. No doubt with the heartbreaking fear of John Smith's final moments in his mind and all this on top of the fact that either decision will mean the Doctor is once again the Last of the Time Lords.
I don't know how well that would have actually worked and you'd still have the pat ending of time reversal to deal with, but it would have been interesting.
Maybe instead of aging him with the laser screwdriver, the Master could’ve modified his chameleon arch to lobotomise the Doctor in some form (I.e. disabling his motor functions and leaving him wheelchair bound, or outright turning the doctor into a mindless drone performing his bidding).
That way, the psychic network solution makes a little more sense sense, as it’s directly restoring the Doctor’s mind/personality, rather than de-aging his physical form.
I think it's fair to say that the Toclafane are very similar to another entity the Master encountered in a, canonically, earlier story, the Sky Men from the first War Master boxset. In that story, the Master saves a man named Cole, who wanted to save at least one planet destined to die from the effects of the Time War, but in his earnest and noble intent to give the humans of the planet he wanted to save hope, he created something far worse. The Iso, much like the Toclafane, were presented with events that were hopeless and would have led to their extinction, but then came this outsider who promised to help them. They make suits that protect them, but they are also augmented mentally, making them remorseless and bloodthirsty, the Iso being emotionally lobotomised to stop them from feeling distress and then they later come to the conclusion that all alien life must die as it was alien life that waged the Time War and caused their planet to die, whereas the Toclafane were regressed to an infantile mentality with no concept of morality or consequence.
Interest fact, the Toclafane were originally going to feature in Series 1 of the revival, with their debut being the episode that later became "Dalek". Until negotiations secured use of the Daleks from the estate of Terry Nation, whom legally own them, it was originally written that the enemy of that episode was going to be a partly cybernetic monster that had no concept of morality and killed all those around it in childlike glee.
Stu should've made every single one of his drawings have the face of The Master.
Great Video Stuart always like retrospective type videos like this on doctor who
Well you got Your wish now with the Big finish spin off being in development xD
I bloody love this three parter, and in my opinion is some of the best stuff in the whole show. I even like the end!
What's weird is that I always thought the middle episode was called "The Sound of the Drums" until last year.
Man, that closing line is just spectacular and I wish more people took that stance because then we'd have way less bitching and a bit more constructive criticism. I think.
Loved this one. Nearly at 10k woo
I do definitely agree. There should be an episode between the sound of drums and last of the time lords. With Mather on earth looking for the weapon. Would of been very interesting to see how she got out of the situations she was in.
Don't tell me I should have 2 more episodes of this story, now I'll never feel whole again without them! Gosh darn you!
When it comes to horrifying human conversions The Toclafane are like the Cybermen turned up by 11 and the Cybermen were already pretty high.
I'd love to see a follow-up episode where there's one guy ONE FUCKING GUY who remembers the year of hell with Saxon/Master running the show.
15:50 “The Doctor’s basically fucking Space Jesus.”
Change “fucking” from an adjective to a verb and you’ve got some kinky fan-fiction right there.
That bit at the beginning is why 4Chan calls the position "showruiner".
Bit late but the story of Martha kinda counted as part 2.5 and finding it in a charity shop, buying and reading retroactively improved last of the timelords for me granted that could also be nostalgia talking
The concept for Utopia was always a big draw for me: humans at the end of the universe are seeking the source of a signal with a name that can be translated as "no place."
And Derek Jacobi as The Master. I'm glad Big Finish did more with this incarnation.
Would be sooo good if you did more reviews of Russell’s DW! Love your content 😌
Wait... what if Martha had fucked with the Paradox Machine and that's how the Master was brought down? She already had a TARDIS key...
Okay but the reveal would have been more interesting if the master was actually... THE RANI.
I didn't have any issues with this finale when it aired, but I was 10 at the time, and spent less time on the internet in a month back then than I do in a day now, so I knew nothing of the fandom's hate of it.
Me too. Still love this story even though it's not perfect.
I despise the resolution to this. I always feel like in a way RTD writing the people of the Earth praying to the Doctor and him flying around with a halo was him saying "David Tenannt has become like a divinity for fans" (still think being the 1st Nu Doctor who stuck around makes him incredibilly overrated) and even so: they could have just destroyed the Machine and have him go young again when time reversed back instead of that Deus ex Machina scene
Yeah I love this story but even I agree that resolution was stupid.
I do ageee but i think it was the time reversing that really did it for me beacause it was like the show going "they woke up and it was just a dream"
Errrrm...Hang on...Wait...
VIVIENNE FUCKING ROOK!!!!
Even Simm admitted that his master under RTD was shit and that he was glad Moffat gave him a chance to play the Master properly before he died.
I never realized how cool it would be to have a whole series dedicated to the Master slowly taking power and the Doctor leading resistance against him.
I can remember my first instance of franchise fatigue with Doctor Who. I think it was between series 3 and 4 that it started, and was in large part due to how I felt the Daleks were being overused and were fast becoming Mary Sue characters - Dalek was a decent enough episode that it is still enjoyable nearly 15 years later, because it touched on a concept that Classic Who never could - the idea that the Daleks were extinct, and this species, whose whole purpose is to kill to prove itself superior to all life, having to come to terms with the fact that there was nothing left to fight for. But every episode after that, they were being sold as being unstoppable, indestructible, that nothing could possibly stop them this time, but then along comes some kind of Deus Ex Machina that just felt penned in at the last moment to just resolve the problem. Also how every series became formulaic to the point where you couldn't get invested or genuinely emotional when something happened, because there were set points in the series where characters had to be introduced and when they had to depart, and the continuity department cannot keep a secret to save their lives.
I really, really love Utopia and the Sound of Drums. Utopia was an incredibly intense and emotional rewatch for me (I’ve been going through the new series again and just finished series 3), probably due to my greater knowledge of the history of the show and just paying better attention to the overarching plot that started with a throwaway line in the Runaway Bride than I did when I was 12. Also the imminent heat death of the universe is a really cool and dark setting. The Sound of Drums is pretty much “Doctor Who goes political thriller” and I really like that. It’s got a really big scale and I think it’s handled well, plus I do enjoy John Simm’s Master. Last of the Time Lords, on the other hand… I don’t hate it, I enjoy it overall, but the resolution is really cheesy even for this show. Also resetting everything to a year is an easy out. Overall I really like this finale but it does have its problems and I still think Bad Wolf/the Parting of the Ways is the best of the RTD finales.
Loved all these.
There's actually a DW novel called The story of Martha that takes place between The sound of drums and Last of the time lords
Plus I think Big Finish said a few days ago that they were making a series based around the same time frame.
Firstly love your doctor who reviews and would certainly watch a look back at all them.
Ive never really thought about the fact RTD kind of put himself into a corner he couldnt really get out of. I suppose that is the risk with big finalies.
I do feel the show does not do well with consequences and its one of the reasons I hate the ending of lie of the land as everyone iust forgets conviently. I seem to be one of a few who really likes rings of akhaten but the ending just doesnt sit right. The doctor basically destroys their religion and then buggers off. As for this episode it just felt like the old troupe and they woke up and it was just a dream which is a shame as i enjoyed most of it. RTD always seemed to be great at starting something but then bad at ending to me.
I do also agree that id prefer to see what happened inbetween the last 2 episodes. When the show does things like this im left thinking well did nothing much happen especially if it was a year
I feel like if big finish heard your idea episodes in between Utopia, the sound of drums, and the last of the time Lords, their spines with start chilling...
For me the biggest problem was I heard Big Finish's Singularity.
A lot of similar concepts, but due to it being a four parter, it paces it's self better.
It wasn't the worst tenth doctor story, but there are more enjoyable ways to spend a couple of hours ie watching Midnight (modern Who's finest hour?) instead.
thank you for reminding me about how good singularity is.
Singularity was meh at best. There is no way Fifth Doctor (or any other really) would let Time Lords go into another universe with "worthy races" and abandon humanity.
@@kimba4962 Sorry you didn't like it.
I personally think that the Time Lords, with their no interference policy would be more than happy to escape the end of the universe.
Would the Doctor agree with them?
Well, considering how the last remaining creatures acted, I could see some Doctors accepting that humanity has run its course.
That's the thing about subjective art, we are both absolutely right in our opinions.
Thanks for the reply.
@@garymurden6146 yeah I get that point, but in that story humanity acted that way BECAUSE Doctor abandoned them. I can understand Doctor accepting end of the universe and letting everything die, it's part of the natural way of time and universe. I can maybe even imagine him being fine with Time Lords escaping into another universe. But the story implies Time Lords selected "worthy" races to take along with them, and Doctor presumably is fine with Time Lords (whom he aware to be corrupt and incompetent at best) of all people deciding who's worthy to survive end of the universe and countinue to exist. Maybe if Singularity actually bothered to explore the subject, but as it is, story just doesn't work for me.
@@kimba4962 Another way of thinking about it is they (the non humanoid remains of humanity) mention that this is an early incarnation of the Doctor.
It is perfectly feasible for the Doctor to be dead by the time the Time Lords reach the decision that this, dead end of humanity, is non desirable.
Remember how they wanted the Daleks removed from the time line, so if they thought another species could become a threat they probably would act in a similar way.
Basically I think this story is an eight and from your comments, I would guess a four.
That's perfectly fine.
I have no doubt that there are numerous stories that you prefer that I don't particularly care for.
I remember once saying that Daemons was average, especially compared to The Mind of evil.
Different strokes for different folks.
If you have a Big Finish story that you can recommend I would be interested.
I think this is the inherent issue you come into with high stakes stories set in current day earth. Set a story 10, 000 years in the future or on some colony planet and you can get away with doing almost anything to the planet but that would be difficult to write and produce.
I didn't even mind the time reversal idea (at least they didn't have a literal reset button like... *that* episode), I just felt that they could have made it that wresting of control more of a challenge for the heroes. Maybe have the Doctor going to rescue the Tardis (rather than Jack just blowing up some stuff to fix it), and the two Timelords having a desperate fight in the console room while the others try to hold off the spheres somehow. Something that where there is still actual tension.
Oh God I'd forgotten Ann Widdecombe supported Harold Saxon for PM and OH MY GOD WE ARE SO DOOMED
The producers had to have been trolling her right?
I pretty much agree with everything you said here except for me the ending does kind of ruin it for me. I still appreciate the first two episodes as great telly but probably the thing from new who I dislike most is this whole space Jesus bollocks and the whole magic prayer to the Doctor to defeat the master and the very unsubtle Christ imagery in that scene rub me so far the wrong way it deflates the whole experience. I get that they needed a cop out ending with the stakes that high but to that I say either don't have the stakes that high, set it in the future or in a parallel universe or have it on a different planet like say a colony planet as then the consequences don't have to be dealt with as much as when its present day earth. Although I do get that it may not hit as hard if it wasn't contemporary. But I do admire the ambition and the story on paper bar the ending looks great they just need to tone down the master 100% and completely rework how it ends and it'd be great but those two for me ruin the experience.
I've maintained that this finale is a masterpiece, barring the stupid resolution to LOTL.
I also remember how much of a fuss fans kicked up about LOTTL, especially on forums at the time. Tinkerbell Floaty Jesus Doctor became a meme before memes were a thing. And some people went nuts over the 'Face of Boe' turning out to be Jack.
I mean there is the story of Martha which fills in the 1 year gap a bit but its a book and people shouldnt have to go out and buy a book to enjoy the full thing. I still like this finale better than finales like the wedding of River song but it's a subjective view point so take it with a pinch of salt
Finding your video so funny can’t wait to see more
There's also a short story called "The Story of Martha" which is set during The Year That Never Was. Sadly never got around to reading it, but I wonder if it bridges the gap between episodes in the way you'd like, Stuart.
WHY wasnt the Deus ex Machina linked back to the Shakespeare code? We have already established that the power of words exists.... so with everyone saying the doctors name at once makes sense as to why he would have gone super sayan
I was a kid when this came out so I had no idea who the master was and was horrified to see the doctor lose its not as good looking back but now but it's still one of my favourite stories
How about a list of your favourite Doctor Who writers? In any medium (books, audio, tv etc.)
As much as I agree with you I cannot stress how much of a horrible piece of Doctor Who the Doctor being tortured and twisted into an old man was if you were four years old.
I don't like the tone of the last episode either. But I find the children being turned into hideous monsters worse.
Sebastian G. Yeah that’s bad but I didn’t fully understand the concept when I was 4 and seeing my childhood hero being tortured like that was a lot more noticeable and disturbing than the Toclafane.
In regards to your comment at the beginning, a bug bear of mine especially recently in the Doctor Who fandom is the belief that Politics wasn't a key element of the show before series 9. So when they announced that series 12 was going to be more like the previous two eras it meant nothing to me as Doctor Who has been stuck in a repetitive cycle since 2005. Parodies of Political figures, The Doctor being judgemental and on the nose references to topical events are both aspects of classic and New who. So anyone screaming for the return of Russell is in reality causing what they hate.
Things I would've changed(aside from what you've already mentioned):
1: Make Derek Jacobi the villain of the story. Master of Callous feels like an improved version of Sound Of Drums and Last Of The Time Lords. He's far more menacing than bat-shit crazy Simms will ever be.
2: Give the Toclofane more screentime. You already mentioned this.
2.5: Remove the Toclofane entirely. Their existence is a paradox that necessitates the solution like you said. Instead, make it a political drama about the Master single-handedly turning the UK into a dictatorship and our 3 heroes are on the run. No deifying the Doctor. Sadly, this would also prevent the Doctor's capture.
3: Cut the wife. She had very little impact on the story.
4: Have the Master survive the story. This would also change End of Time. John Simms' Master would debut in End of Time, having been forced to regenerate to conceal himself from the likes of UNIT and Torchwood. Then rewrite the entirety of End of Time. His portrayal in World Enough And Time and The Doctor Falls really reminded me of the Sam Kisgart Master from Sympathy For The Devil. Make Simm's Master like that instead of bringing back the drums.
5: Instead of the Master conquring the world, he uses the Archangel Network to hypnotize the entire planet, including other politicians in power, essentially creating puppet governments.
Lawrence Gist so I assume in your version Wales and Scotland have gone independent !
@@iain9757 Possibly. I doubt it, though.
If Davis could have not got the Nations estate use of the Daleks the Toclafane was going to be the new series answer to the Daleks
One of the smartest moves was making Harold Saxon appear in the season before as just a name
I was rewatching this with my friend, who is watching DW for the first time, I realized the flaws in the episodes. But I also appreciated the epicness of the episode because of how starved I've been by the recent seasons.
Good analysis well done
The sound of drums/last of the time lords could have worked for a regeneration story. The doctor is a wanted man. What if he hides himself by regenerating.
Hoooo...
Definitely still on rewatch this ending disappoints. Hell Bent and Time of the Doctor and... EVERY Moffat finale still looks amazing to me after Last of the Time Lords. The trilogy here starts amazing, falls apart near the end of part two, and not only never recovers but gets so, so much worse in part three. The Story of Martha Who novel is the great missing episode too, by the way.
Of course, anyone who remembered just who played the Master in his last recorded appearance in "Scream of the Shalka" kinda had the reveal spoiled for them.
Aristide Twain Well that must have been about half of one percent of the people who watched this. If that.
Fair enough, but we're all among Doctor Who fans *here*, aren't we?
That missing part between The Sound of Drums and The Last of The Time Lords is called 'The Story of Martha'. It was meant to be a TV story but they didn't have time to make it, so Dan Abnett, with David Roden, Steve Lockley, Robert Shearman, Paul Lewis, and Simon Jowett, turned it into a novel for BBC Books.
I'm joking, of course, but I saw the opportunity to make a joke and took it.
I love the song 'I can't decide...', but the whole last of the Time Lords sort of bugs, what about Susan and Romana and the Meddling Monk? 😖