He Who Moans Reviews Doctor Who: Utopia / Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Years and Years made me feel like revisiting the messy but incredibly ambitious finale of season 3 of nuwho
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My one criticism of this arc would be that it would've been way cooler had the show established Mr Saxon earlier, and not just by name, but by already casting John Simm as a government official who occasionally got in the way of the TARDIS team without them knowing about it. Like, had he been around from Series 2 or even Series 1, it would've been fucking amazing to reveal him as the Master.
^^THIS
To be fair, he couldn't have existed in series 1. The tenth Doctor changes the future by deposing Harriet Jones, so he'd have to show up in episodes after The Parting of the Ways. Plus I believe he was cast as the Master thanks to Life on Mars.
But it would have been really good if he featured in politician based stories like the Slitheen episodes, The Christmas Invasion, etc.
True. The twist could have been having a truly established character be revealed to be the Master, not just revealing that the Master was that guy who's been mentioned in recent episodes
The doctor set the tardis so it can only land in 2007 Britain and the end of the universe so he couldn't show up any time before that though him being mentioned in tbe run away bride is a plot hole unless it was within a year.
Well Stuart, we don’t have a cure yet. But we we do have expensive treatments that will only moderately assist and we’ll insist you’re being self destructive if you don’t go broke using them. It’s called progress.
Council of Geeks we do have a cure
It’s called a bullet
The messiah Doctor ending gets a bit of a bad rap, but that's more to do with the way it's presented than the idea itself (Which is a very, very Seven and Ace plot). If the Doctor had been more explicit about how incredibly manipulative his plan was and the realisation of the psychically charged Doctor had been more unsettling it would have worked a lot better.
Moffat definitely couldn't do high stakes finales in the same way as RTD, I think a big part of that is that Moffat wanted to raise the stakes even higher than RTD had them, but in doing so he ended up making the threats much more nebulous and what exactly would happen if the Doctor and co failed was often pretty unclear.
Moffat just did over 20 minutes of Doctor and companion indulging in soppy dialogue about how much of a hero he is each finale.
TheJaviferrol Don’t forget how Moffat always made the finale episodes take place in entirely different settings to one another, completely breaking the flow of the story and wasting time with establishing this new setting in almost every finale.
0:11 I love how Nathaniel is trying to cure the fan hatred tumour, it seems like something she would definitely do given she’s basically Stu’s polar opposite
It would be cool if the Toclafane ever come back, your video has made me realise just how dark and interesting they were.
Great review. One of my favourite stories. The Toclafane reveal is one of Whos greatest moments.
Aparently john simm wanted to play the master more like previous incarnations and even wanted the goatee, but RTD pushed for a more Joker like master instead
Jackson Co yes I’ve heard this too
gj russell
I'd love to see a follow-up episode where there's one guy ONE FUCKING GUY who remembers the year of hell with Saxon/Master running the show.
I've always found this trilogy easier to swallow than Tennant's finale eps, but if a few things had been tweaked and Jacobi had honestly stayed on as The Master, I think this could've been a whole lot better. Nothing against John Simm, he did as well as he could with the material and direction, but Jacobi is way more "The Master" to me.
SpikesGirl1 We should just have more Jacobi in general, like imagine if he faced off against John Hurt's war doctor in an audio book or in the Day of the Doctor I'm a selfish person but like it would've been amazing
@@kingcrimson1467 I don't think that's a selfish idea at all! Honestly surprised nobody over at Big Finish thought of that, even as a "what if?" scenario.
SpikesGirl1 It doesn't even need to be a What-if story because it could easily fit into the massive mess of Doctor Who's continuity by some wibbly wombbly timey wimey effects and some influx of artron energy changing the flow of the chrono-neutrons
@@kingcrimson1467 lol Yeah, good point.
@@CrazyBuffyFan1 you must be happy now
There's actually a DW novel called The story of Martha that takes place between The sound of drums and Last of the time lords
Plus I think Big Finish said a few days ago that they were making a series based around the same time frame.
Great Video Stuart always like retrospective type videos like this on doctor who
Loved this one. Nearly at 10k woo
There's also a short story called "The Story of Martha" which is set during The Year That Never Was. Sadly never got around to reading it, but I wonder if it bridges the gap between episodes in the way you'd like, Stuart.
Well you got Your wish now with the Big finish spin off being in development xD
I do definitely agree. There should be an episode between the sound of drums and last of the time lords. With Mather on earth looking for the weapon. Would of been very interesting to see how she got out of the situations she was in.
Stuff I don’t understand about this story
why Russell did Years and Years since this episode proves he doesn’t know how elections work, also the US President didn’t die here, it was the president elect.
overseas versions cut out Martha’s mum trying to kill the Master ? Yes it’s for time but her whole arc is just gone
It's been over a decade between Last of the Time Lords and Years & Years. That's PLENTY of time for RTD to properly research and understand politics.
I despise the resolution to this. I always feel like in a way RTD writing the people of the Earth praying to the Doctor and him flying around with a halo was him saying "David Tenannt has become like a divinity for fans" (still think being the 1st Nu Doctor who stuck around makes him incredibilly overrated) and even so: they could have just destroyed the Machine and have him go young again when time reversed back instead of that Deus ex Machina scene
Yeah I love this story but even I agree that resolution was stupid.
I do ageee but i think it was the time reversing that really did it for me beacause it was like the show going "they woke up and it was just a dream"
I never realized how cool it would be to have a whole series dedicated to the Master slowly taking power and the Doctor leading resistance against him.
Lucifer had to help the doctor because he wouldn't have an earth to play with.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the reveal that Face Of Boe is Jack Harkness, that still baffles me. I guess it's gonna go down as an off-hand joke unless Big Finish somehow use it.
Meris also it’s not a “reveal” it’s just a “oh this might be related” it’s like that character in Knock Knock being related to Harry Sullivan
How about a list of your favourite Doctor Who writers? In any medium (books, audio, tv etc.)
What's really interesting is the whole season before that point there are references to Saxon. Posters and such in the background but you don't know what it means until this story starts.
Loved all these.
This review does make me curious as to which finale DOES work for you. Maybe you can review a Moffat finale from Matt’s era (though to be fair, the only one that really worked was the series 5 finale)
So...children of Earth next???
I also remember how much of a fuss fans kicked up about LOTTL, especially on forums at the time. Tinkerbell Floaty Jesus Doctor became a meme before memes were a thing. And some people went nuts over the 'Face of Boe' turning out to be Jack.
I see what you mean with a fourth/fifth part but I think that it would have went on too long with five parts. I think what should have happened would be: Utopia, Rise of the Master (the master working his way through the government and the first half of what was Sound of Drums), Dominion of the Master (the last half of Sound of Drums and the year that never was), and Last of the Timelords
It should have been set on a different planet. That way, the consequences wouldn't have had to be undone. It could have still been humans if they really wanted.
Interesting that there was no mention of the Face of Boe reveal or of Martha leaving the Tardis. Those were significant events that occurred from the results of the trilogy and of series three as a whole.
IMO there is no significance whatsoever to Jack's "Face of Boe" comment, it was pure fanbait that changed literally nothing about anything in the series ever. It was done solely to get some of the viewers gasp in astonishment by the connection of two unlikely dots.
I think the best way around the deus ex machina ending would have been to set it in the future.
I love JNT. Always did... But I am only 30.
Well, at least he was never Eric Saward!
can you do parting of the ways from season 1
Does this mean that Years and Years is set in the Whoniverse?
I liked Utopia but thought the other 2 parts were fairly weak.
Thank you for the spoiler warning, I live in America unfortunately.
Big finish spin off
"Saxons Britain"
Big Finish could totally make a series with Saxon Master. I'd listen the shit out of whatever they'd do with him.
Yes, yes and a million times yes
Yeh it could focus partially around a group of government officials and civil servants who uncover documents that hint at who Saxon is during his election campaign. Because civil servants have quit a ordinary job but are at the hart of every thing it would be a refreshing departure from unit and torchwood experts whilst still remaining involved. Obviously unit should make a brief appearance but in a similar way to children of earth.
The first series or two should focus on the election campaign and the subtle bingings of a dictatorship. Then the later series should be about those government officials trying to take down Saxon from the inside whilst still being in contact with the regular oppressed people off earth and mabey Martha.
I dunno mabey it could happen... I think bigfinish would, they are doing a ridiculous amount of spinoffs around really obscure ends of the universe that really didn't need it. so something meaty like could be fun for them. And us. And me. Make it for me. NOW!!!!
This has potential for wry satire that RTD didn't have time or interest to explore. For a show always looking for ideas, I agree with Stu that it's weird that Doctor Who very rarely takes any time to revisit the consequences, or follow through with the implications of its existing stories. NOT for random callbacks and fanservice, but for fleshing out actual story and arcs.
I think (mostly due to Jacobi) Yana being the Master is probably one of the best New Who twists ever ??
If you havent, you should hear him in the War Master boxsets of BF. He up there with Delgado
TheJaviferrol too late
I’ve got War Master 3 ep 4 to go
@@iain9757 Im waiting for it on the mail
Thank goodness for Big Finish.
I'm only halfway through War Master 3, but it's been good so far.
Speaking as a person who had no prior experience with the master due to being too young, John Sim defined the Master for me. That crazy, mavric (somewhat cartoony) is what I thought of him until I watched some older episodes. Due to that, even though this is not anything like your classic master I will always really enjoy this 3 parter.
The 90s film has the master played the same way. But I feel like it only started to feel natural for the character when he because Missy and she had the whole 'I just want to mess with you vibe'
The war master audios have 100 percent effected my enjoyment of Utopia. My new fear in his character that came from those stories made the 10 minutes he spent as the master in the episode terrifying. Even though I knew what happened, it scared the hell out of me because I knew what he was capable of.
I need to listen to those!
He should have been the master it angers me that they wasted Jacobi one of the best actors in Britain
The best thing about The Last of the Time Lords is the commentary with David,Freema and John who maybe had a bit too much to drink before recording ?
I am flocking to my DVD copy immediately. Thanks for the reminder that this exists!
Samuel Davis
I may be half and half on the RTD era but THIS IS WHY I BOUGHT THE DVD BOXSET
The features alone were worth it and so packed full of fun ...
And then after series 3 it kinda went down the drain
@@iain9757 I don't know. Series 4 came with the Confidentials didn't it? Those are always great!
You(the monk three parter)
The guy she tells you not to worry about (the master three parter)
When you talked about how there should've been more episodes, I can't help but wish they'd titled one "The Saxon Master Plan"
"The Master Saxon Plan".
Someone once pointed out to me that in Mind of Evil, a giant floaty Doctor laughing at the Master is shown to be one of the Master's biggest fears. And then, years later in Last of the Time Lords, the Doctor literally becomes giant and floats towards a cowering Master for real. Not sure that was ever intentional, but it's kinda fun.
My favourite Russell finale. Yes, the resolution is awful, but it's way more interesting than the other ones.
IMO, choosing this episode to have the return of Jack Harkness was also a nice decoy, so fans would think "Oh cool, this is the Return of Jack episode". We all ignored "Professor Old Man". We were excited about Jack. And suddenly......
What if the Doctor was just turned into a steaming bone-like man? Full size, but literally just thin-as-bones and barely breathing shell. You don't even have to fully show it. It would deliver a seriously scary (yet not gratuitous) moment, but give him some gravity when he emerges at the end. I never got Yoda Doctor, not even remotely.
Also to fix the world of 2007 for series 4 and onwards? I genuinely think some kind of desperate parallel-world trickery or paradox machine-TARDIS consequences would've been more welcome. Just ideas. Might share a name with him, but i'm certainly no RTD.
"paradox-machine TARDIS consequences"
but... that's what happens... the paradox machine is broken and thus the paradox collapses in on itself.
Rushy but there’s no lasting consequences for that serial going onwards. Just an idea to make it feel a little less magic.
@@SamyulDavis There's never any lasting consequences in any Earth invasion story that's ever happened.
Rushy No, lasting consequences for the Doctor & the TARDIS/team like say... the creeping Four Knocks or the ramifications of the Charley arc.
@@SamyulDavis He lost Martha as a direct result of that story and saw her become a militaristic oppurtunist by the end of his run.
I always loved John Simm perfomance in that trilogy. He was a daring and different incarnation of the Master, but I think he pulled it off.
Really underrated.
It's funny re-watching this and realising OH MY GOD MARTHA TEAMED UP WITH THE DEVIL TO FIGHT THE MASTER
While Vivienne Rook is talking sense.
As for the psychic-network resolution, here's an idea of how they could have tweaked it for it to work better: instead of the psychic energy magically restoring the Doctor, what if what happens is that the combined willpower of the human race manages to simply *reverse* the direction of the psychic field, such that the humans are now controlling the Master rather than the reverse - "I am the Master and I-and I-aah!-and I……will……obey……you--AAARGH WHAT IS THIS!".
And rather than the psychic voodoo thing magically making the Doctor younger, it's simply that the Master is mind-controlled into using the laser screwdriver to reverse the damage he's done.
This would not only avoid the terrible, ill-justified Jesus Doctor effect, but it would also put the Master's defeat back into the hands of humanity rather than the Doctor.
Also Malcom Tucker should have been there to scream at the masters.
Another bigfinish spinoff????
EAT THE CHEESE,,MASTER!!
I love doctor who when the doctor loses. Or isn't there. Nothing against the character obviously I just like bleak hopelessness. Speaking of bleak hopeless please please please do a review of "children of earth"
WHY wasnt the Deus ex Machina linked back to the Shakespeare code? We have already established that the power of words exists.... so with everyone saying the doctors name at once makes sense as to why he would have gone super sayan
I kinda think Turn Left was more a blueprint than this for Years and years
I think its multiple episodes used for years and years, even torchwood children of earth is similar
For all of its many problems, I remember really loving Sound Of The Drums just because of its way of taking down the Doctor lower than ever. However, the next episode was… a little disappointing. I never hated it, but it just didn't live up to Sound of Drums for me
Davies was obsessed with the deus ex machina to solve his finales. Bad wolves, voids, archangel doctors. Basically he builds up apocalyptic situations then just finger snaps them away.
I *love* this episode
a lot, but the resolution always bugged me. it's a bit silly.
also I had no idea that woman was called Vivian Rooke!
The thing I loved about Simm's Master is how he was personally out to make The Doctor fucking SUFFER:
- He steals The Doctor's TARDIS and leaves him and his friends for dead at the end of the universe with bearly as much as a "I'm back, bitch!"
- He takes over the UK and makes him Public Enemy No. 1
- He ages and imprisons him and his friends and makes them watch as he subjugates the Earth for a year, breaking the timeline
- He weaponises the human race into the Toclafane and claims The Doctor's favourite species as "the greatest monsters of all"
- He refuses to regenerate and fucking dies in his arms out of spite
- He turns the human race into himself to personally get at The Doctor, aiming to do the same to the Time Lords
- He manipulates his best friend and turns her into a Cyberman while he's not looking and then proceeds to bully her constantly.
- He shrugs off The Doctor's plea to stay and help
- He's disgusted by Missy's complete lack of a hate boner for The Doctor (pun not intended)
- He refuses The Doctor's help and friendship at every turn because by this point in their relationship, they're not friendly rivals anymore. They spent the 80's actively trying to kill each other and by the time the Time War started, he had become the most vicious version of himself yet, but skipped the war out of fear, leaving The Doctor had to deal with it and ended up traumatised and alone for it. Now that The Master's back, when he hears the Time Lords are gone, he hears "No one can stop me from doing whatever the fuck I like and The Doctor's too soft to kill me now". 10 wants his friend back, but he couldn't give 2 shits.
TBH I don't even mind the OTT performance, I just love this angel of it.
Honestly, filling in the blanks with a Part 2 and 4 would be a great premise for a couple of Big Finish radio dramas.
Okay but the reveal would have been more interesting if the master was actually... THE RANI.
‘Wandering around quarries jabbering about how important everything is’
Huh...Dr actually hasn’t changed that much over the years, has it?
I didn't quite like John Simm's incarnation of the Master. He felt too much like the Joker if he was playing the Master, mostly doing things for shits and giggles, rather than some ulterior, self-serving motive.
I actually love this story and find it to be an underrated finale. I'll admit part of it is nostalgia and I think Last of the Time Lords is significantly weaker but I do enjoy Martha fighting desperately against a broken world being the only one left fighting and think the episode has a lot of strong elements. Even if it is far fetched I do find the Master being defeated by prayer to be a fitting ending that really works. But the Doctor turning into Dobby and having superpowers is silly as is the way time is reversed. But I love the way the Master takes over earth and becomes Prime Minister with the Doctor and his companions in an unwinnable scenario and the way he tortures Martha's family and makes them suffer is truly cruel and makes the story rather hopeless. The story has layers of intriguing mystery which I still find it interesting to discover. Its brilliant with the Master having already won and its fascinating and cunning in the way he seduces earth. I love seeing him at the centre of an evil dictatorship and the story really shows the consequences of a world living under the fear and rule of the Master. John Simm is amazing and still my favourite incarnation of the Master. Even though it's gone slightly down in my enjoyment over time it will always be a story I really like
Wait... what if Martha had fucked with the Paradox Machine and that's how the Master was brought down? She already had a TARDIS key...
Doctor Dobby was a seriously missed opportunity to bring back the concept of a decaying timelord from the deadly assassin. We’ve seen the Master in that state, would’ve been amazing if the doctor was also given a decaying incarnation for that one episode. Would also be more cathartic for the master and give him more motivation for doing it as he’s been through the same
Jacobi as Yana, dragging The Doctor with him makes me think this is how The Doctor and Master were as kids
I was fully expecting you to tear this one apart. This - by your standards - was surprisingly positive
Stu should've made every single one of his drawings have the face of The Master.
It's like the end of "Superman" where Lois is dead, half of California is in the ocean and tons of people are dead. Then, the hero turns back time and fixes everything.
I really wish Jacobi was the main master for sound of drums and last of timelords and regenerated at the end
John Simm is my favourite incarnation of The Master. For me, he’s strikes the right balance. This is what the character should be: disarmingly silly while also dangerously unstable. RTD also, in my opinion, gives The Master the best send off his character’s ever gotten. There’s no cliched sentimentality or last minute regrets. The Master just dies with a smile, knowing that he’s finally beaten The Doctor. Absolute perfection. For me anyway.
Miles Heron so for 18 ish years the Master wasn’t the Master
Iain 97 That wasn’t what I was trying to say. You can like other versions (I do), but this is my favourite.
Yes vivian, we've heard of you
15:50 “The Doctor’s basically fucking Space Jesus.”
Change “fucking” from an adjective to a verb and you’ve got some kinky fan-fiction right there.
no matter what anybody says to me about these episodes, the Utopia reveal will always be great
Things I would've changed(aside from what you've already mentioned):
1: Make Derek Jacobi the villain of the story. Master of Callous feels like an improved version of Sound Of Drums and Last Of The Time Lords. He's far more menacing than bat-shit crazy Simms will ever be.
2: Give the Toclofane more screentime. You already mentioned this.
2.5: Remove the Toclofane entirely. Their existence is a paradox that necessitates the solution like you said. Instead, make it a political drama about the Master single-handedly turning the UK into a dictatorship and our 3 heroes are on the run. No deifying the Doctor. Sadly, this would also prevent the Doctor's capture.
3: Cut the wife. She had very little impact on the story.
4: Have the Master survive the story. This would also change End of Time. John Simms' Master would debut in End of Time, having been forced to regenerate to conceal himself from the likes of UNIT and Torchwood. Then rewrite the entirety of End of Time. His portrayal in World Enough And Time and The Doctor Falls really reminded me of the Sam Kisgart Master from Sympathy For The Devil. Make Simm's Master like that instead of bringing back the drums.
5: Instead of the Master conquring the world, he uses the Archangel Network to hypnotize the entire planet, including other politicians in power, essentially creating puppet governments.
Lawrence Gist so I assume in your version Wales and Scotland have gone independent !
@@iain9757 Possibly. I doubt it, though.
i mostly find john simm as the master very annoying. he just gives me second hand embarrassment whenever he's on screen, which makes this finale very hard to enjoy.
Though I liked it upon release, Last of the Time Lords remains the worst new series climax for me, by FAR. For the reasons you stated and more. Absolutely Russell at his (rare) worst. Back in '13 this alone was put on in a college media class and I just wanted to melt into my seat and die out of embarrassment.
I love the silly gaudiness of this show. It's how I can watch the 80s stuff, but serials that make me feel genuine embarrassment for loving the show are genuinely the worst. I also file Dimensions in Time, End of Time part 1 & Doctor Mysterio under this highly exclusive ridiculous-and-inaccessible-to-the-general-public category. Still, loved the video and would welcome more of these reviews of the odd revival story. When you don't have to grapple with the cultural reaction and the series exhaustion as the shows are airing, you get into some top-tier insight.
Samuel Davis I was nearly through out of my media class when we had to watch the first ep of Sherlock as I was like “NONE OF THIS PAYS OFF”
The subversion of us thinking Gatiss is Moriarty but he’s actually Mycroft is good know
Man, that closing line is just spectacular and I wish more people took that stance because then we'd have way less bitching and a bit more constructive criticism. I think.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here except for me the ending does kind of ruin it for me. I still appreciate the first two episodes as great telly but probably the thing from new who I dislike most is this whole space Jesus bollocks and the whole magic prayer to the Doctor to defeat the master and the very unsubtle Christ imagery in that scene rub me so far the wrong way it deflates the whole experience. I get that they needed a cop out ending with the stakes that high but to that I say either don't have the stakes that high, set it in the future or in a parallel universe or have it on a different planet like say a colony planet as then the consequences don't have to be dealt with as much as when its present day earth. Although I do get that it may not hit as hard if it wasn't contemporary. But I do admire the ambition and the story on paper bar the ending looks great they just need to tone down the master 100% and completely rework how it ends and it'd be great but those two for me ruin the experience.
Errrrm...Hang on...Wait...
VIVIENNE FUCKING ROOK!!!!
Even Simm admitted that his master under RTD was shit and that he was glad Moffat gave him a chance to play the Master properly before he died.
Martha is better than Rose
Yep
I disagree, but to each their own.
@@SoundsSarcastic234 Like what you like.
Those aren't very high standards you're comparing Martha to, but I really think Martha was shortchanged during Series 3 as the 'rebound companion'.
Martha had a lot more potential, mostly unexplored, IMO.
I think it's fair to say that the Toclafane are very similar to another entity the Master encountered in a, canonically, earlier story, the Sky Men from the first War Master boxset. In that story, the Master saves a man named Cole, who wanted to save at least one planet destined to die from the effects of the Time War, but in his earnest and noble intent to give the humans of the planet he wanted to save hope, he created something far worse. The Iso, much like the Toclafane, were presented with events that were hopeless and would have led to their extinction, but then came this outsider who promised to help them. They make suits that protect them, but they are also augmented mentally, making them remorseless and bloodthirsty, the Iso being emotionally lobotomised to stop them from feeling distress and then they later come to the conclusion that all alien life must die as it was alien life that waged the Time War and caused their planet to die, whereas the Toclafane were regressed to an infantile mentality with no concept of morality or consequence.
Interest fact, the Toclafane were originally going to feature in Series 1 of the revival, with their debut being the episode that later became "Dalek". Until negotiations secured use of the Daleks from the estate of Terry Nation, whom legally own them, it was originally written that the enemy of that episode was going to be a partly cybernetic monster that had no concept of morality and killed all those around it in childlike glee.
YANA being you are not alone straight up fucked my mind
Perfectly timed vid, since I'm listening to the outright amazing War Master audios
As much as I agree with you I cannot stress how much of a horrible piece of Doctor Who the Doctor being tortured and twisted into an old man was if you were four years old.
I don't like the tone of the last episode either. But I find the children being turned into hideous monsters worse.
Sebastian G. Yeah that’s bad but I didn’t fully understand the concept when I was 4 and seeing my childhood hero being tortured like that was a lot more noticeable and disturbing than the Toclafane.
It might be ambitious and it might not completely work but I think the main thing missing in series 11 and especially it’s finale was a lack of ambition. I don’t think doctor who needs to be the best written and it can be ridiculously silly and campy, the only thing that can make doctor who unwatchable is if it’s not trying to do something interesting or bold. That’s why I think many people had a problem with series 11. While episodes like Rosa and It Takes You Away might not have been the best written, they stand out to me as the best episodes of the season because they were being ambitions and doing something interesting. Where series 11 fails is in episodes like Arachnids or Ranskoor Av Kolos because they are jut run of the mill episodes that lack ambition.
The sound of drums/last of the time lords could have worked for a regeneration story. The doctor is a wanted man. What if he hides himself by regenerating.
Is it bad that I've never hated the new show runners apart from Chibnall?
Same
The concept for Utopia was always a big draw for me: humans at the end of the universe are seeking the source of a signal with a name that can be translated as "no place."
And Derek Jacobi as The Master. I'm glad Big Finish did more with this incarnation.
I personally think that this is the best Tennant finale. Doomsday, while good (in fact, being the only RTD finale that didn't have a Deus-Ex Machina), had a few flaws like the Daleks being overpowered and the 10/Rose stuff at the beach really bogged it down, and Journey's End was a absolute mess even with the Stolen Earth doing a fantastic build-up. The gripes that I have with the story are the resolution to the conflict (I argue that 10 isn't as much of a Space Jesus as much as people make him out to be, but this is definitely a case), and that Captain Jack doesn't have much to do in the story. Besides that, I do love the story for my second favourite NewWho Series, and I would argue the most consistently great series of NewWho.
English Giraffe surely it does have a deus ex machina? I.e. sucking all the Daleks and cybermen into the void? However, at least it didn’t wipe the slate clean like in “last of the time lords” (with numerous dead/missing and Torchwood disbanded.
In any case the best New who finale is Parting of the ways imo. The deus ex machina (I.e. Super Rose) actually turning out to be a causality loop set up via Bad Wolf since early in the series validates it’s use.
@@cjmcc5231 the main deus ex machine comes from Rose's (alternate!) dad somehow knowing exactly what is happening in the other universe, then teleporting right in front of the void-hole and somehow not being pulled in.
Zarrg Good point. Thats another example and aspect that bugs me too. Why couldn’t RTD have written that she presses her own button just before she reaches the wall? The questions that arise as to how Pete knew exactly when and where to appear is ridiculous.
But the idea of sucking them into the void indiscriminately is a deus ex machina unto itself.
In regards to your comment at the beginning, a bug bear of mine especially recently in the Doctor Who fandom is the belief that Politics wasn't a key element of the show before series 9. So when they announced that series 12 was going to be more like the previous two eras it meant nothing to me as Doctor Who has been stuck in a repetitive cycle since 2005. Parodies of Political figures, The Doctor being judgemental and on the nose references to topical events are both aspects of classic and New who. So anyone screaming for the return of Russell is in reality causing what they hate.
5:05 BuT wHaT aBoUt MaGpIe'S eLeCtRiCaLs
I think maybe they could've rectified some of The Master's slow takeover of Earth by maybe adding more than just a curt mention of "VOTE SAXON!" throughout Series 3, by showcasing a few more scenes on Earth with Martha's family akin to how some of those Government Agents were monitoring her mother.
Or failing that just a brief scene of a TV ad showing off those Vote Saxon commercials you got brief glimpses of in The Sound of Drums.
The finale used to be one of my favorites, but I do agree that the ending feels very handwaved away which I've somewhat come to accept to a certain extent, but that being said I would've liked to have at least seen some fallout from The Master's takeover, but I think by this point RTD probably knew that Series 4 was gonna be his last and figured he wouldn't wanna leave The Moff with any excess baggage from his era.
The Space Jesus thing I honestly kinda like in retrospect since it gave us the much needed gem Waters of Mars in terms of taking the 10th Doctor's ego down a peg and showing how dangerous he could be when left unchecked, which is a far more effective character arc than "The Doctor gets beaten up while John Simm hams it up to the sounds of Voodoo Child"
Is... is Donald Trump the Master?
That bit at the beginning is why 4Chan calls the position "showruiner".
I mean there is the story of Martha which fills in the 1 year gap a bit but its a book and people shouldnt have to go out and buy a book to enjoy the full thing. I still like this finale better than finales like the wedding of River song but it's a subjective view point so take it with a pinch of salt
RTD is Highly Overrated and He (imo) made the Series very , VERY STUPID! He inserted way to much Emotional and Relationship NONSENSE!
I think I get where you are coming from. IMO emotions and relationships can be explored intelligently and meaningfully. But going for "teh feelz" can also be a copout to avoid following through with your story. RTD was pretty vocal that gushing emotional payoffs were more important than actual narrative, and I think his finales demonstrate his worst excesses in this area. It comes off as cynical to me, like a bait-and-switch from an OK story that might have gone somewhere, to some unearned, uninteresting orgasm that just happens.
"What happens in the story to cause/justify this?"
"Well, you see - it is the end of the second act of the second-to-last episode!"
I've been fairly positive about LOTL because whenever I rewatch it it seems clear to me that RTD is writing the key moments of the story as those between the Doctor and the Master. You're absolutely right to talk about how this episode is essentially the Master torturing his ex-friend for a year, which is why I think the infamous 'space jesus' moment works. It's a direct call back to The Mind of Evil where the Master's greatest fear is seeing the Doctor dominate him, and so that moment is literally his worst nightmare. Even more traumatic is that the Doctor, in all his never be cruel never be cowardly santicmoniousness, actually forgives him!
That leads beautifully into the REAL climax of the story (the time reversal is a plot resolution not the climax) - the Masters death. The Master has the victort by denying the Doctor the one thing he really needs at this point, another Time Lord, a friend. Tennants acting when he begs the Master to regenerate is wonderful and the pyre scene is the real end to the story, with everything after working as coda.
It's not perfect, but it's an excellent attempt to write Doctor/Master in a complex way without a mere nemesis opposition like in the Davison era.
For me the biggest problem was I heard Big Finish's Singularity.
A lot of similar concepts, but due to it being a four parter, it paces it's self better.
It wasn't the worst tenth doctor story, but there are more enjoyable ways to spend a couple of hours ie watching Midnight (modern Who's finest hour?) instead.
thank you for reminding me about how good singularity is.
Singularity was meh at best. There is no way Fifth Doctor (or any other really) would let Time Lords go into another universe with "worthy races" and abandon humanity.
@@kimba4962 Sorry you didn't like it.
I personally think that the Time Lords, with their no interference policy would be more than happy to escape the end of the universe.
Would the Doctor agree with them?
Well, considering how the last remaining creatures acted, I could see some Doctors accepting that humanity has run its course.
That's the thing about subjective art, we are both absolutely right in our opinions.
Thanks for the reply.
@@garymurden6146 yeah I get that point, but in that story humanity acted that way BECAUSE Doctor abandoned them. I can understand Doctor accepting end of the universe and letting everything die, it's part of the natural way of time and universe. I can maybe even imagine him being fine with Time Lords escaping into another universe. But the story implies Time Lords selected "worthy" races to take along with them, and Doctor presumably is fine with Time Lords (whom he aware to be corrupt and incompetent at best) of all people deciding who's worthy to survive end of the universe and countinue to exist. Maybe if Singularity actually bothered to explore the subject, but as it is, story just doesn't work for me.
@@kimba4962 Another way of thinking about it is they (the non humanoid remains of humanity) mention that this is an early incarnation of the Doctor.
It is perfectly feasible for the Doctor to be dead by the time the Time Lords reach the decision that this, dead end of humanity, is non desirable.
Remember how they wanted the Daleks removed from the time line, so if they thought another species could become a threat they probably would act in a similar way.
Basically I think this story is an eight and from your comments, I would guess a four.
That's perfectly fine.
I have no doubt that there are numerous stories that you prefer that I don't particularly care for.
I remember once saying that Daemons was average, especially compared to The Mind of evil.
Different strokes for different folks.
If you have a Big Finish story that you can recommend I would be interested.
I didn't have any issues with this finale when it aired, but I was 10 at the time, and spent less time on the internet in a month back then than I do in a day now, so I knew nothing of the fandom's hate of it.
Me too. Still love this story even though it's not perfect.