I think TTD has a bad rep as it came after a massive high. I rewatched recently and yes some of the acting is shaky but compare this story to Timelash.....TTD is way better. The only good thing about Timelash is The Borad and I love the 6th Doctor lol
@@marky437Considering TTD’s production issues and being affected by the strike, I would have either scrapped it for a better script or move it to Season 22 and give the producers more time to polish the script with further rewrites.
Its funny that you say that its a more adult story because as a matter of fact growing up I could never connect to this story then I rewatched it as an adult and its become my all time favourite story
It's very easy when doing a regeneration story just to go "let's throw a big villain like The Master or the Daleks or Rassilon or the Cybermen or all of them at once in there", but Caves works on the basis of this kind of adventure being fairly normal in The Doctor's life. They face danger around every corner and it's just as likely that they'll die of some disease they picked up somewhere or get shot by some random soldier as they would after a 3 season long plan by one of their oldest and deadliest enemies
I feel like CoA works because it’s very much a Fifth Doctor story taken to it’s logical extreme while also being a response to the rest of Season 21 as a whole.
I'm a simple person, I see one of my favourite Whotubers talking about one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, and I'm happy Then I remember it's Caves of Androzani, and then I'm less happy in all the best ways possible
An interesting aspect about The Caves of Androzani is that the Doctors involvement made things worse and there was basically nothing he can do to help. Also, the scientific explanation for Androzani minor mudslides actually makes Androzani major a dangerous planet to live on. Androzani major gravitation pull will eventually destroy Androzani minor since it's strong enough to cause parts of its mud core to head up towards the surface. Most of Androzani minor remains would probably fall towards Androzani major causing great catastrophe. At best Androzani Minor core would just explode and it would just look like Rock Star from Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards possibly not hurting Androzani major.
Man, what a great review of a great episode. Also, yes, please make that "How sad" into a meme. The Universe needs more Classic Who memes! Also I am a bit upset that you did not mention the robotic Saladeed's RIDICULOUS faces. I really liked the fact that when you first meet Saladeed he's just so stuck-up and makes these weird faces like he's intentionally trying to freak people out, and then later you get to see the real Saladeed and he's _nothing_ like his robotic stand-in, and it suddenly makes so much sense as to why he looked and acted so strange at the base! It's the perfect explanation of an otherwise extremely weird detail and it may be small, but I loved it.
Gotta agree on the Regeneration thing. That's why I always appreciated the Seventh Doctor's unceremonious death in the McGann film, followed by that eerie electric regeneration. I get they wanna do the big story to celebrate the era, but it would be nice if they did that for the penultimate episode, then had an implied time skip before the next episode, which would be a more subdued coda for the actual regeneration story. I do however, disagree about the age thing. Plenty of show's can retain their kid appeal while still appealing to adults. Show's like say Avatar The Last Airbender or Adventure Time are perfectly appealing to kids, but resonate differently and reveal more depth once you gain the experience to see it.
Yes, plenty of shows walk that line well. I feel like the Pertwee era in particular hit that stride extremely well right from Spearhead. When you talk to people who were around for the original era of Doctor Who, the lingering memories are either the watching from behind the couch, or the cheapness of the production. I don't know if the new era has the emotional engagement of the best of the old era, so it feels like people will just remember how silly it was.
Totally agree. Five and Seven have realistically bleak and arbitrary deaths, which makes for more impactful storytelling. I'm over the "your death has been prophesied" narrative in Who.
This is the only classic Who story I've watched because I heard it was one of the best. It's definitely so much darker and grittier than what I thought alot of classic Who was and I loved it for that. It doesn't really feel like a Doctor Who episode in alot of ways, it almost has a similar atmosphere to an Alien/horror film rather than the jovial shlock that's usually carted out for sci-fi TV shows. The multiple cliff hangers could get stale but in this I think it fits the pacing perfectly, and even though I haven't watched anything else with Peri and the Fifth Doctor I really like their growing relationship through the episode. It feels like an episode that couldn't be made now because the whole thing has this heavy darkness to its shots, definitely feels like you're in Quasar/what ever franchise had a laser quest near you in the 90s in the UK.
I remember the first time I sat and watched this last year and being utterly blown away by the sheer masterclass it is, having putting it off for so many years. It's just brilliant from start to finish, although I do agree that the only real weak point is the Magma Beast. I love it so much I did a 4K upscale of it because I couldn’t wait for the S21 Blu-ray. Needless to say this is easily one of the best Doctor Who offerings ever and I will never forgive a so called friend of mine calling this boring because and I quote "Nothing of value happens"...
I don't think the "You have grown out of it" sentiment can apply to me, cause I still watch and enjoy cartoons. I don't think Doctor Who needs to grow up with it's audience, I think it should just have something for the kids and the adults. Then when the kids grow up, they can come back to the episode, and appreciate it in a whole new level, noticing the heavy adult stuff they didn't appreciate before. A lot of cartoons do that. Russel Era did it all the time. Even Russel's Sarah Jane Smith Adventures, a literal kid show had a lot of heavy shit in it.
Thanks I thought I was the only one who noticed this is why Twin dilemma came after as the finale because the events of this story become traumatic for 5 which is why is personality becomes so radically different when he becomes the 6th. The Twin Dilemma isn't a good story but 6th portrayal of the aftermath of this story is what makes it watchable.
yeah i’ve noticed this too. all throughout 5’s era he’s shown to be fallible and to make reckless choices. i like how caves shows this doctor at his most determined and heroic and finally getting it just right. and then the over confident 6th doctor comes along.
5:40 For me the new context kinda works. 5 had loads of companions and never really got on with any of them aside from Nyssa. Peri and Erimen were the only ones he seemed to connect with and having that being taken away and him dying kinda adds a level of tragedy for me.
I like Caves because it’s really just the Doctor and Peri trying to get through the story and only barely. All the destruction and death and the Doctor feels like he’s legitimately winging it. Looking at the regeneration scene you can kind of understand why the 6th Doctor was a bit........ unique early on. It’s a fun look at regeneration itself really
The beauty of the Androzani part three cliffhanger is there's no music in it. It's all conveyed through the rising engine sound, the performances and the direction; the only things present are those that need to be present. There's nothing flat-out demanding you to be tense or distracting you from it, and thus you believe every single second of it.
When "Caves" first aired I was disappointed to see that Roger Limb was doing the music because I always hated his scores. In my opinion he didn't come close to Paddy Kingsland or Peter Howell. However, the score for "Caves" was suddenly different than Limb's previous ones and I think it works brilliantly. Very militaristic and atmospheric. I wonder if Graham Harper had something to do with the tone of the musical score?
@@doughorton3635 This was the season where sampled instruments really started being added to the synth scores. Paddy Kingsland earlier used the 'ketchup bottle' panpipes for Frontios, but it was Limb who really went to town on the Androzani score with the death-knell gongs and deep choral voices.
In retrospect after watching this video, I see Androzani as the Dark Knight Returns of Doctor Who. A brilliant one off story that SHOULD have been a one off but everyone continued to copy the general themes and darkness during the Baker era (unsuccessfully too, because there's only one Holmes and even he couldn't recapture the vibe of this one) and we were all left miserable by the result (With his wonderful coat of many colours) I find that that's an issue with groundbreakers is that they DO break new ground for other writers who are nowhere near as honed in on their own skills.... Which then turns into them attempting to ape the style of the thing because it was popular and that's what they want to recapture. When the whole REASON why it worked was because it was different.
Caves is still one of my all-time favourites and you can see why it's won so many polls over the years. I remember reading a review in DWM once, that made the same point as you - that Big Finish's Five and Peri adventures unfortunately sort of lessen the impact of Caves. As much as I like the further adventures of Five, Peri and Erimem, I do think that's a fair point. If you chose to ignore those extra adventures though, then boy, poor Peri probably has the worst experience of any companion. The guy who introduced her to the Doctor buggers off immediately, then on her first trip with him, it's just one long laborious descent into death, only for Mr. Nice Guy Doctor to die and be replaced by an abusive twat who immediately tries to strangle her. Then if you don't consider the brilliant work Big Finish has done with Six and Peri's relationship, then good grief, things never really get much better, do they?
My favourite episodes are always that challenge the audience, the kind that are scary, that feel grim, that make you feel something, but that makes you feel stronger having passed through it. That's what works about Caves of Androzani.
I would like to see more mature episodes in New Who because Doctor Who is undeservedly seen by many as just a kids show, but much like characters such as Batman or James Bond, Doctor Who is something that has films, comics or shows that cater to every kind of age range.
As someone who’s listening to all the 5 and Peri stories currently, they’re certainly interesting even if they piss all over the emotional impact of Caves
@@Blartyboy That's more due to the fact Big Finish earlier on struggled to figure out how the have 5 with his own companions due to the fact that unlike 6, 7 or 8 there was no real established period when he was not with a companion.
I would argue The End of Time is also a death story. Mostly with the added context of Waters of Mars. The Timelord Victorious arc as it's called now is about the inevitability of death, how the Doctor tries desperately to escape it, and the fear of death that slowly drives him mad, and almost causes him to just leave Wilfred to die a painful death. It is bombastic, and stupid, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be a death story as well.
@@lucasdolding6924 True. But both of those stories are very hopeful. In Caves of Androzani and End of Time death is terrifying, and something that's not glamorous, or comforting. It's more relatable to people who actually share this fear of death.
@@HiperPivociarz While yes both of them are hopeful they don't view death as hopeful. Regeneration changes what it's supposed to be allegorical for depending on the writer and Moffat clearly views it as a symbol for the sort of great change we're all subject to by the passage of time which I personally think is a more powerful liminal emotion that couldn't be explored in any other way (and also truer to what regeneration actually does for the show). It of course comes down to your personal lived experience but I find the way death is portrayed in both of these stories with both Smith ageing from the most manic and hyperactive Doctor into a man barely able to walk and Capaldi's Doctor being able to continue living but not wanting to far more relatable and realistically messy portrayals of death than the grand heroic sacrifice of taking a proverbial bullet for a loved one
@@rennythespaceguy7285 But taking a bullet for a human, "not even remotely important" man is the death the character needed, because that's the 10th Doctor overcoming his ego. The ego that drove his fear of changing in the first place. Also, I just don'tlike Twice Upon a Time, and think the Doctor suddenly waking up at the end of The Doctor Falls, quoting other episodes, and then declaring he doesn't want to regenerate, without that being foreshadowed or set up in any way takes away any emotional investment I would have in that story. It feels so out of nowhere. Maybe in a vaccum Twice Upon a Time is better, but The End of Time actually set up the character arc they wanted to do.
@@HiperPivociarz Twice upon a time is set up, a key point of Capaldi's era that keeps coming up is The Doctor is tired of losing people and he's tired of his life being on loop(literally heaven sent, his most famous episode spells this out clearly, his life is an endless loop of running from a monster in corridors and needing to burn the old him to make a new one). Like Clara the season before he starts taking stupid risks and is constantly finding excuses to try sacrifice himself like in The Pyramid at the end of the earth, eaters of the light and of course the Doctor falls. So when he is denied his heroic sacrifice for the third time and has lost everyone he finally calls it quits and decides to take it into his own hands. It's all there pretty plainly, dislike it all you want but it is a story that confronts the character with something personal and very real. It's not a coincidence that his run ends with the Shepherd's boy
hi stu i watched this again recently and I love this (mainly) gentle emotionally sensitive incarnation of the doctor juxtaposed (such a grown-up word) to the foil of the harsh violent and uncaring world of the story. this may be one of the best stories in all of the show's history just because of that pairing. nuff said, mark
A long overdue review! Loving these classic serial reviews. Can we get a chimes of midnight video please? I really want 10 minutes of you geeking out to it!
I think that the doctor and peri having other adventures between her first and the 5th doctors last story takes away from the doctors sacrifice, he barely knows her yet gives his life for her. Also if it makes you feel better about being 30 and still making videos about a kids show, I'm 28 and just finished watching she-ra on netflix for the 5th time and still cry at the ending, it could be worse.
Much as I despise The Twin Dilemma, it kinda works if you think about it as what Caves was so angsty for- it knew the next story would kill the series, so it went out with a very pained bang.
You know now that you mention the "growing out of it", I think I kind of know what you mean? I love Doctor Who so much, but by this point in my life the show isn't the main attraction for me at all. I watch it mainly out of curiousity. I will always continue to watch it, but I don't know if I really... enjoy it? Sometimes I do of course. I want to like Jodie's Doctor and her stories with all of my being but... you know... writing = bad. Or at least writing = not my cup of tea. Instead I have completely thrown myself into the novels and audios. They are so completely joyous and fascinating for me. They go where I want to show to go. They, in a sense, *have* grown up with the audience. Perhaps I should feel disappointed that the show isn't what I want it to be, but you know? Doctor Who has so much to offer to me outside of what is the mainstream arm of it. Stranded 2 brought me joy. The Scarlet Empress was one of the most incredibly fun reads I've ever experience in the DW world. So what if its nothing like the show? I still connect deeply to the Doctor and Doctor Who. But it is from a completely different part of the franchise. And really.. I think I'm okay with that.
Wow summed up just how I feel as well, except that I haven't looked into the novels and audios! I keep thinking I ought to but never get around to it. Definitely want to actually get them :)
@@grump9001 I highly recommend both! Big Finish obviously does cost money, but the first 50 main ranges and the first series of the new Eighth Doctor adventures are wonderful and free on Spotify! And if you look hard enough there are free internet archives full of all the PDFs for many Doctor Who books. Including all of the Eighth Doctor Adventures and all of the Past Doctor Adventures.
Twin Dilemmna is my guilty pleasure it's a mess and awful but I find it endlessly entertaining and I genuinely think Colin Baker is incapable of giving a bad performance.
5:48, kingmaker review when? You need to do it stuart. You have no choice. On a more serious note one of the main things i love about jek is that, out of all the non tardis team characters, he is the closest thing the story has to a good guy. Hes absolutely not a good guy, but compared to all the other characters in the story he has easily the most sympathetic motivation.
@@peterkorman77 Oh I loved that episode. So different and atmospheric. Wish it was a two parter, but I'm glad it didn't overstay itself and left stuff unexplained.
It kinda bugs me that they show you Sharaz Jek's full face. I'd rather get tiny *almost* glimpses of the grotesque, I feel like that would have been more scary and they could have gotten away with more horrible visuals
2:01 Ok, Daleks Master Plan review next please! (personally a 8/10. Great moments for Hartnell & Daleks but stretches itself out way too thin. War Games & Invasion better utilised the massive ep count I felt.)
Interesting take, although I haven’t finished it yet I already feel like Dalek’s Masterplan is using the longer format much better than War Games, mostly because it feels like the plot and characters are actually progressing rather than just getting captured, escaping and repeating that cycle. Yet again, I’m one of those weird people that got incredibly bored during the war games and never saw it’s appeal so it’s probably just me.
@@EditedAF987 War Games does seem to be always be reevaluated every couple of years by fans. Its great, then it isn't, then it is again. I think it holds together mostly due to the sheer scale of the master plot and the emotional final journey of the three regulars. 9/10. Daleks Master Plan, is frustrating to me because it does have many gripping moments and Bill Hartnell really shines but it is a very wafer thin plot considering, and between Ep 3-11 its just a darker remake of "The Chase". Still really enjoy both stories but felt more was at stake for the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe.
I actually think new who regenerations are taking inspiration from Androzani somewhat. Especially tennant's, in that scene of him about to crash the spaceship in End of Time Part 2 he might as well have yelled "I'm not going to let you stop me now."
The Caves of Androzani is one of the greatest episodes of Doctor Who and it introduced me to Peter Davison, Nicola Bryant and Colin Baker and it was one of the first episodes of Doctor Who I ever watched which led me to becoming a fan. The Caves of Androzani is one of the darkest episodes in the series' history and Peter Davison gave one of his best performances as The Doctor. Good supporting cast. Caves of Androzani is a good story. The Doctor and Peri innocently exploring the mining planet Androzani Minor only to get caught up in a ongoing war between soldiers led by General Chillak and android rebels led by Sharaz Jek which they get wrongly arrested for gunrunning. Rescued and held captive by Sharaz Jek and learn they are slowly dying of drug poisoning and the gunrunners thinking The Doctor is a government agent. The episode had some of the best acting in the history of the series and had a few good twists. Like the upcoming 22nd season, Caves of Androzani was pretty violent especially for a Saturday night family series, but, not graphic. Sad it was Peter Davison's farewell episode. The selfless Time Lord sacrificing another of his lives to save his companion from a fate worse than death. Series 21 was a sign that series was getting fatigued with the writing and was slowly on the verge of declining, but "Caves of Androzani" is truly one of Doctor Who's best. Dark. Violent. Brutal. Truly Doctor Who at it's darkest.
I remember my first watch fifth Doctor run, and I knew that The Caves of Androzani is considered as the best Who story. So I had a very big expectations. But man, the story blew me away completely away. It was ten times better than I could possibly imagine. P.S. you should definetly check out a synth-rock opera "The Caves" by the Sevateem that based on this series.
My relationship with brevity is a strange one. Back in around 2012 when I first started, UA-cam had only recently removed limits on video length and most videos that got popular were short and to get recommended, videos ideally had to be shorter. That and I always kept being told by people that my videos were too long and everyone was used to shorter videos on other channels, so I trained myself to become a ruthless editor and whenever I look at a paragraph in a script and I see fat to trim, I trim it. Now: UA-cam trends towards length and I've lost the ability to ramble. I can never win!
11:04 Am I the only one who kinda likes the Twin Dilemma? It’s nowhere near as good as Caves but I think the bigger quality dip is from Genesis to Revenge
For this episode to make more sense, you have to factor in that Blake's 7 had ended around that time, so a lot of ideas that were left over must have transferred over to Dr Who even though Blake's 7 was a lot heavier than Dr. Who. And out of work Blake's 7 actors resurfaced in the Colin Baker era like Paul Darrow and Jacqueline Pierce. Even though Blake's 7 was not as science fiction based as Dr. Who, both shows had a new style of dramatic acting in common. British Science Fiction Acting, if you will. You never see that style ever in American science fiction. You do see it developed further in Australian science fiction like Farscape.I miss the British Science fiction style in recent Dr. Who. By 2022, Dr Who acting has deteriorated, so if there is any kind of range ,it is mumbling quietly in a dialect to shouting unintelligibly.
Well I find re-watching RTD and Moffat era episodes much more fun than watching Chibnal episodes, so the problem isn't that I've outgrown the show. I'm actually baffled at just what age-group Chibnal is trying to target. He's too patronising and in-your-face for adult viewers, but at the same time the show is too dark to just be for children. Is it just aimed at adults who like being talked down to?
I've heard it's aimed at people who look at their phones whilst watching, which is probably why it points out what's happening on screen. Which is just a terrible idea for many reasons.
Dark and miserable, perfection It is the best regeneration story for me, though that's helped by the new series having the habit of going a bit over the top for me in its finales.
I think the major dip in quality in recent years isn’t just because the show hasn’t grown up, I think it’s actually because it’s been dumbed down. The writing feels like it’s designed far more for children than before. The moral messaging is far more heavy handed than the Davies and Moffat eras were so that even the slowest children can understand it. This is why when Chibnall tries to do something big and meaningful it feels like tonal whiplash and is just laughable.
I always said the vibe of this story felt more like what Blakes 7 would've been like if it's budget wasn't whatever was in the producers pockets at the time an episode was shooting. I think British Sci Fi of the late 70s and 80s at it's best was almost viscous in how cynical it was when you factor in what 2000 AD and a lot of written sci fi was doing. Watching the Tory's come to power off of middle class fear mongering and then Thatcher being a monster left everybody in a dour state that for some reason Americans never really got to in the same cultural zeitgeist kind of way. I think it says something really interesting I can't quite articulate.
This episodes seems to be based off contragate. Where the American president sold weapons to Iran then gave the profits to the contra terrorists in Nicaragua. When Congress had designated the contras a terrorist group
Slightly worse than the techno-babble endings, are the "I am the Doctor, fear me" endings. (At least the "I am The Doctor - run away!" and they do endings, are fewer and farther between than the technobabble ones.) Nonetheless, your point is well made, sir.
I'd like to think that a few adventures still took place between Planet of Fire and Caves of Androzani. They weren't really Big Finish stories (I don't consider them canon) but I do think they did travel a bit before they get to Androzani Minor. There seems to be a bit of familiarity between the two of them when they first arrive that I don't think would have happened if the had gone straight from Planet of Fire to Caves.
What goes around was already copied. New Who sometimes copies the "Androzani" format. "Androzani" itself copies the feel of a lot of Hartnell episodes, which were all about narrowly escaping doom.
I started watching Dr Who when I was twelve with Planet of the Spiders Jon Pertwee's last outing as the Doctor and watched solidly through the fourth Doctor's time tailing off with the fifth, missing most of the sixth and picking up with the seventh I watched the ninth and early tenth but when I moved abroad - viewing was more difficult so it has been sporadic. I think it does have a Peter Pan complex about it - it has difficulties changing as it is a space and time opera (like the Archers)
The first five regenerations were about the Doctor either being mortally wounded or failing. The first Doctor regenerated after just defeating the Cybermen, the second Doctor had to call on the Time Lords to help him, the third Doctor was poisoned by the Giant Spiders, The fourth Doctor was technically murdered by the Master and the fifth one was poisoned too. So technically, the Doctor died on Androzani.
I was looking at how some fans (including what you said) about how the Doctor is treated as a God in the recent era of the show, but I just watched a documentary on Cartmel talking about his plan to trying the Doctor more mysterious (ala the First Doctor) after being the butt monkey in the previous years. So this was actually stemmed back from the last few years of the Classic show (This was from the last Doctor Who story you can look on the DVDs). So my question is this; why is the idea of making the Doctor as the most important being bad in the recent show, but not back when Cartmel did it (even though JNT did try to intervene about it)? I know it sounds stupid, but I just feel a bit confused on how fans are complaining on something on the new show, but not in the old show. Does it have to do with the fact that Seven is the only one meant to be a God-like being?
The Cartmel Masterplan was never completed on screen and JN-T was putting the breaks on it anyway. I don’t think the fans would have liked seeing the Doctor built up as a godlike figure then either
The fact that we went from a Bob Holmes Masterpiece to.. Slugs killed any chance Baker had of being taken seriously. First impressions are everything in British Society. And he came off as a total overacting overweight clown copying Tom's hair & assaulting his companion. It left a bitter taste in even Who fans mouths. The country didn't want him in their living room's after that.
for me at least, the thing with the 5 peri and Erimem stuff is that 5 still doesnt properly get to know peri (especially since Erimem is taking up his time too). So while it does take away some of the impact of caves i feel it adds some too to a degree. In fairness, i just look at that run of big finish plays as a "what if?" series.
It's odd how the "It's a family show" argument tends to either be valid criticism or another bullshit version of the "it's for kids" excuse. The "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" arguments fall flat when there used to justify poor quality. As someone who grew up with Avatar: The Last Air bender, One thing I know for certain is that any target demographic excuses to justify poor quality are bullshit. Avatar: The Last Air bender holds up as an adult because it had effort put into it and it didn't crutch itself with the bullshit excuses. If a show has effort put into it then the audience should never outgrow it. The "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" arguments tend be subjective case by case scenarios for everything else. With an example from Doctor Who the 1964 Story The Aztecs has inaccuracies to the Aztec mythology. I don't think a show meant for the whole family in 1964 wasn't going to explain details of Aztec mythology and I'm not sure how much of it would be explain nowadays in the show. The main reason the Aztecs believed in sacrifices because they believed that the stars and moon are decapitated heads of Gods that wanted to destroy the world and there current 5th Sun God Huitzilopochtli needed blood in order to protect the world from the stars and moon. The Aztecs also believe that the Earth landmass was created by the remains of a monster called Cipactli that was still alive and needed to be feed with sacrifices. And the reason Huitzilopochtli is the 5th Sun God is that the Aztecs believed the world has ended 4 times and currently exist in a 5th world with 4 different Aztec Gods being Sun Gods to the prior worlds. Explaining anything about this in a show meant for the whole family is going to be highly subjective. The issues with Doctor Who aren't coming from the "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" bullshit, all of Doctor Who issues come from the bullshit Bad Budget excuse. The main reason the bad budget excuse is a horrible excuse to make something and defend something is the budget does not affect the overall quality of effort. There is a major deference between not affording and straight up being lazy. Not having a lot of money for parts of production is understandable, slacking off on the production that is seen on screen is still being lazy regardless of money. The bad budget excuse also affects the writing to. The writing issues of Oversaturating popular villains, Recycling plots, and barley leaving the UK despite being about traveling time and space exist because of the bad budget excuse. Good writing can save bad production but bad writing will shine brighter with shit production. Stuff can be shit with a big budget. Foodfight! is a bad movie with its 65-million-dollar budget and Destiny is a weak game with its 500-million-dollar budget. Defending anything with the bad budget excuse will just makes people go from "Wow that's bad and outdated" to "Oh it was lazy and shit from the beginning" instead of forgiving or attempting to look past the bad and outdated effects. People can and will forgive a show for its weaker outdated aspects but its hard to do that when the creators and fans are being open on how it was lazy from the get go. When a show uses is budget as an excuse be lazy, all it's doing is taking a gun and shooting itself in the ass. The bad budget excuse is why Doctor Who has inconsistences in quality. It's odd that the awful stories Warriors of the Deep and The Twin Dilemma are from the same season as the masterpiece that is The Caves of Androzani. Warriors of the Deep and The Twin Dilemma look like shit on top of being poorly written shit, they deserve the hate they get whether you like it or not. I can easily forgive minor faults The Caves of Androzani has because it has effort put into it. And the minor faults being that the cave monster costume looks out of place and the mud core is probably scientifically impossible are just stupid nitpicks to an amazing story.
I've honestly never heard anyone genuinely say that doctor who hasn't gotten bad and we've just grown out of it, unless if it was some form of satire. Many people talk about how they had a similar feeling about feeling they had grown out of Doctor Who around the end of Series 7, but the 50th Anniversary Special really got them hyped up again, as well as the announcement that Peter Capaldi was the new doctor. It seems like a similar thing is happening here.
That opening rebuttal is probably very specific to me as its a common comment I get and has been for some time now (and as admitted, on some deeper level is probably true)
@@Stubagful I feel for you man- Have always loved your videos and hope everything's going... you know- Good. You proabably don't remember, but years ago I left a comment complimenting you on that story you wrote about everyone having to have a monster next to them that spits out random social media posts they made whenever it's most inappropriate. I still think it's one of the best stories I've heard, like for real. :)
I have always felt that DW should have been more sepulchral & brooding because as pointed out in The Twilight Episode of a Man who Lived forever.. you eventually die of sadness; seeing all your loved ones perish. The Dr shouldn't be so human, & jovial. Nor should he be bitter & angry, but a torn soul. Androzani really hits the nail on the head in this regard. And when he realises that Peri is in danger, he TOTALLY changes & becomes much more fervent in his demeanour. Secondly, the way it was directed with the Tech & time allotted is impossible to comprehend. The director must have died on set! The style of DW has become like a Disney fairy tale of late. I saw clips of *The Sea Devils* recently & the new Whittaker Sea Devil story. I couldn't believe how awful the new show looked. The classics suffer from obvious tech & funding drawbacks, but Nu Hu just seems like a waste of too much money and no apt writing. The original, I think was an early episode was set on No Man's Sea Fort in the Solent. It was really claustrophobic, dark, rusty, like a horror. One poor bastard gets killed by a sea creature on board the fort, the other becomes deranged, and then the Doctor runs off in terror - locks himself in a room where this thing starts melting down the door!! At this point my 9 year old runs behind the door! It's gripping stuff! Plenty of suspense, the dialogue is sharp & it just feels more real than the nu stuff which looks worse than a game cutscene! Androzani has all the Grit & moribund ethos to captivate the audience and reveal slowly that they are not watching just another serial of a long dying show. It has its own rules which they break regularly!
@@____uncompetative yeah but convincing younger generations to go check out a cult BBC sci fi programme from the 1960’s is a lot harder than it sounds, and it already sounds difficult enough. Without new who already having grabbed their interest, people would’ve probably been less motivated to check classic who out. And besides, while I agree that everyone has their preference, I don’t think we can really say that one era is OBJECTIVELY better than the other. They’re both equally pulpy, sensationalist, goofy, low budget, contrived in places and sometimes poorly paced. They also have their own merits that the other lacks, like classic who definitely has the better sense of imagination and a lengthier runtime to help properly explore it’s ideas whereas new who is a generally lot better when it comes to character exploration.
Honestly, I think doctor who has become incredibly formulaic. The Doctor regenerates, gets a companion, they travel for three years then they regenerate again. In a world of "We need new! New! More new ideas!" doctor who is just...predictable. Why not switch it up like the third doctor's era. Why not ground the doctor on earth again? Or maybe keep the doctor away from earth for a couple series? Or maybe have two doctors at once? We're approaching 15 years of new who now, you gotta make changes before its too late.
Sometimes you don't outgrow a franchise sometimes the franchise gets shitty Caves of adrozani was my opinion the last really good episode of the classic doctor who before it really went downhill I really didn't like collin baker
I like bleak shit, just as much as you do Stuart, but I always found the idea that if something is for adults, it needs to be gritty and dark childish. It's this mindset that gave us stuff like the spunk monster in Torchwood. I love gritty, bleak stories from time to time, but not every adult media has to be like this, and not every piece of adult media should. At the same time, having death and bleak imagery doesn't necessarily mean a piece of media is mature.
You should quit with this baby doctor who stuff already and make series about things that adults enjoy, like Adventure Time or that Ducktales reboot from a few years back. Grow up please you're being embarrassing
It's really there's claims that this is the best Dr Who story but really for Robert Holmes it's not even in my top 5 I much prefer The Sun Makers for its cutting humour and it Critique of bureaucracy and over taxation which was a thing at the time thanks to the Energy Crisis and there's even a poke at Dennis Healy the labour chancellor who's Super Taxes effected Holmes personally it's also the perfect example to counter the pro Capitalism of the obnoxious Kaboom which sides with galactic Amazon instead of having the guts to make a 3 partner and give freedom back to the people. Really I think caves strength is it showed not tell which was pretty much what happened with planet of the Spiders which was my favourite finally to a doctor till the Matt Smith final Christmas story which is really when I was kinda done with Dr Who after that the seed of what season 12 and 13 became were put in place with the balance between stories I liked and stories that were Mah got to the point of whole seasons having nothing to offer and being as forgettable as Star Trek Discovery.
Yeah, so this is that one 'classic' DW story which I hate with passion, because I think it disrespects the Doctor and I don't find bleakness for the sake of bleakness valuable. Still, your analysis is on point, and video enjoyable as always. Quite a feat, since this story is a black hole that sucks out all enjoyment from the universe and will probably never stop.
The "skin crawl" comment feels said as your era-PC duty like being scared that the witch-hunters will come and get you if you don't say it. As ypu say, nothing feels good about watching Androzani. Add that its one of the boring business stories that later Classic had from Tom's third season onwards, and despite your eulogisng of its darkness it contains no memorable morally challenging event,can't see wth folks see in it or why there is such a consensus for it. Leaves me cold, and that's even though Davison is my favourite Doctor. His acting in the face of death I prefer in Arc of Infinity. There the prospect actually is death, instead of still likely regeneration.
...nnno...it was a creepy moment. It was meant to be creepy. That was quite obviously the point of it. And I complimented it for effectively being creepy Does fucking everything have to be a culture war? Even an innocuous comment like that
When _The Twin Dilemma_ appeared at the end, I was expecting it to be followed by _“How sad.”_
tut tut tut
I think TTD has a bad rep as it came after a massive high. I rewatched recently and yes some of the acting is shaky but compare this story to Timelash.....TTD is way better. The only good thing about Timelash is The Borad and I love the 6th Doctor lol
@@marky437Considering TTD’s production issues and being affected by the strike, I would have either scrapped it for a better script or move it to Season 22 and give the producers more time to polish the script with further rewrites.
Its funny that you say that its a more adult story because as a matter of fact growing up I could never connect to this story then I rewatched it as an adult and its become my all time favourite story
You had to have the bleak reality of life hammered into you first
It's very easy when doing a regeneration story just to go "let's throw a big villain like The Master or the Daleks or Rassilon or the Cybermen or all of them at once in there", but Caves works on the basis of this kind of adventure being fairly normal in The Doctor's life. They face danger around every corner and it's just as likely that they'll die of some disease they picked up somewhere or get shot by some random soldier as they would after a 3 season long plan by one of their oldest and deadliest enemies
I feel like CoA works because it’s very much a Fifth Doctor story taken to it’s logical extreme while also being a response to the rest of Season 21 as a whole.
I'm a simple person,
I see one of my favourite Whotubers talking about one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, and I'm happy
Then I remember it's Caves of Androzani, and then I'm less happy in all the best ways possible
I had to wait till the cases were down and things were starting to look brighter. Can't have everyone being too happy, there needs to be a balance
@@Stubagful Stuart look! Free cake!
Stuart: You look like you could do with a reminder that we're all going to die
And now I'm going to remind everyone of the Androzani mention in The Doctor, The Widow And The Wardrobe and fuck that balance up something rotten.
Whotubers is such a great phrase
An interesting aspect about The Caves of Androzani is that the Doctors involvement made things worse and there was basically nothing he can do to help. Also, the scientific explanation for Androzani minor mudslides actually makes Androzani major a dangerous planet to live on. Androzani major gravitation pull will eventually destroy Androzani minor since it's strong enough to cause parts of its mud core to head up towards the surface. Most of Androzani minor remains would probably fall towards Androzani major causing great catastrophe. At best Androzani Minor core would just explode and it would just look like Rock Star from Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards possibly not hurting Androzani major.
I wasn't expecting that paragraph to end with a comparison to a Kirby game, but: I think you've got that spot on!
Great direction as well from Graeme Harper. Makes me wish more classic episodes had directors like him.
Man, what a great review of a great episode.
Also, yes, please make that "How sad" into a meme. The Universe needs more Classic Who memes!
Also I am a bit upset that you did not mention the robotic Saladeed's RIDICULOUS faces. I really liked the fact that when you first meet Saladeed he's just so stuck-up and makes these weird faces like he's intentionally trying to freak people out, and then later you get to see the real Saladeed and he's _nothing_ like his robotic stand-in, and it suddenly makes so much sense as to why he looked and acted so strange at the base! It's the perfect explanation of an otherwise extremely weird detail and it may be small, but I loved it.
Gotta agree on the Regeneration thing. That's why I always appreciated the Seventh Doctor's unceremonious death in the McGann film, followed by that eerie electric regeneration.
I get they wanna do the big story to celebrate the era, but it would be nice if they did that for the penultimate episode, then had an implied time skip before the next episode, which would be a more subdued coda for the actual regeneration story.
I do however, disagree about the age thing. Plenty of show's can retain their kid appeal while still appealing to adults. Show's like say Avatar The Last Airbender or Adventure Time are perfectly appealing to kids, but resonate differently and reveal more depth once you gain the experience to see it.
Yes, plenty of shows walk that line well. I feel like the Pertwee era in particular hit that stride extremely well right from Spearhead. When you talk to people who were around for the original era of Doctor Who, the lingering memories are either the watching from behind the couch, or the cheapness of the production. I don't know if the new era has the emotional engagement of the best of the old era, so it feels like people will just remember how silly it was.
Totally agree. Five and Seven have realistically bleak and arbitrary deaths, which makes for more impactful storytelling. I'm over the "your death has been prophesied" narrative in Who.
This is the only classic Who story I've watched because I heard it was one of the best. It's definitely so much darker and grittier than what I thought alot of classic Who was and I loved it for that. It doesn't really feel like a Doctor Who episode in alot of ways, it almost has a similar atmosphere to an Alien/horror film rather than the jovial shlock that's usually carted out for sci-fi TV shows. The multiple cliff hangers could get stale but in this I think it fits the pacing perfectly, and even though I haven't watched anything else with Peri and the Fifth Doctor I really like their growing relationship through the episode. It feels like an episode that couldn't be made now because the whole thing has this heavy darkness to its shots, definitely feels like you're in Quasar/what ever franchise had a laser quest near you in the 90s in the UK.
‘Laser Quest’ m8.
I remember the first time I sat and watched this last year and being utterly blown away by the sheer masterclass it is, having putting it off for so many years. It's just brilliant from start to finish, although I do agree that the only real weak point is the Magma Beast. I love it so much I did a 4K upscale of it because I couldn’t wait for the S21 Blu-ray. Needless to say this is easily one of the best Doctor Who offerings ever and I will never forgive a so called friend of mine calling this boring because and I quote "Nothing of value happens"...
I don't think the "You have grown out of it" sentiment can apply to me, cause I still watch and enjoy cartoons.
I don't think Doctor Who needs to grow up with it's audience, I think it should just have something for the kids and the adults. Then when the kids grow up, they can come back to the episode, and appreciate it in a whole new level, noticing the heavy adult stuff they didn't appreciate before. A lot of cartoons do that. Russel Era did it all the time. Even Russel's Sarah Jane Smith Adventures, a literal kid show had a lot of heavy shit in it.
Looking back on Davison's run, it does a good job foreshadowing the 6th Doctor's personality and arc.
Thanks I thought I was the only one who noticed this is why Twin dilemma came after as the finale because the events of this story become traumatic for 5 which is why is personality becomes so radically different when he becomes the 6th.
The Twin Dilemma isn't a good story but 6th portrayal of the aftermath of this story is what makes it watchable.
He was good but i didnt like the beginning of twin dilemma
yeah i’ve noticed this too. all throughout 5’s era he’s shown to be fallible and to make reckless choices. i like how caves shows this doctor at his most determined and heroic and finally getting it just right. and then the over confident 6th doctor comes along.
5:40 For me the new context kinda works. 5 had loads of companions and never really got on with any of them aside from Nyssa. Peri and Erimen were the only ones he seemed to connect with and having that being taken away and him dying kinda adds a level of tragedy for me.
In this story, the situation is literal Batshit.
I like Caves because it’s really just the Doctor and Peri trying to get through the story and only barely. All the destruction and death and the Doctor feels like he’s legitimately winging it.
Looking at the regeneration scene you can kind of understand why the 6th Doctor was a bit........ unique early on. It’s a fun look at regeneration itself really
My 3 favorite classic Who stories: Pyramids of Mars, City of Death and Caves, brilliant stories.
The beauty of the Androzani part three cliffhanger is there's no music in it. It's all conveyed through the rising engine sound, the performances and the direction; the only things present are those that need to be present. There's nothing flat-out demanding you to be tense or distracting you from it, and thus you believe every single second of it.
This story also has one of the best and most appropriate music scores the series has ever had, it doesn't miss a beat.
When "Caves" first aired I was disappointed to see that Roger Limb was doing the music because I always hated his scores. In my opinion he didn't come close to Paddy Kingsland or Peter Howell. However, the score for "Caves" was suddenly different than Limb's previous ones and I think it works brilliantly. Very militaristic and atmospheric. I wonder if Graham Harper had something to do with the tone of the musical score?
@@doughorton3635 This was the season where sampled instruments really started being added to the synth scores. Paddy Kingsland earlier used the 'ketchup bottle' panpipes for Frontios, but it was Limb who really went to town on the Androzani score with the death-knell gongs and deep choral voices.
In retrospect after watching this video, I see Androzani as the Dark Knight Returns of Doctor Who. A brilliant one off story that SHOULD have been a one off but everyone continued to copy the general themes and darkness during the Baker era (unsuccessfully too, because there's only one Holmes and even he couldn't recapture the vibe of this one) and we were all left miserable by the result (With his wonderful coat of many colours)
I find that that's an issue with groundbreakers is that they DO break new ground for other writers who are nowhere near as honed in on their own skills.... Which then turns into them attempting to ape the style of the thing because it was popular and that's what they want to recapture. When the whole REASON why it worked was because it was different.
Caves is still one of my all-time favourites and you can see why it's won so many polls over the years.
I remember reading a review in DWM once, that made the same point as you - that Big Finish's Five and Peri adventures unfortunately sort of lessen the impact of Caves. As much as I like the further adventures of Five, Peri and Erimem, I do think that's a fair point.
If you chose to ignore those extra adventures though, then boy, poor Peri probably has the worst experience of any companion. The guy who introduced her to the Doctor buggers off immediately, then on her first trip with him, it's just one long laborious descent into death, only for Mr. Nice Guy Doctor to die and be replaced by an abusive twat who immediately tries to strangle her. Then if you don't consider the brilliant work Big Finish has done with Six and Peri's relationship, then good grief, things never really get much better, do they?
My favourite episodes are always that challenge the audience, the kind that are scary, that feel grim, that make you feel something, but that makes you feel stronger having passed through it. That's what works about Caves of Androzani.
When it has Robert Holmes on the tin, buy it.
1:11 I like how this video isn't even quite two years old yet, and we already have both the 14th and 15th Doctors to fill in the blank spaces.
I would like to see more mature episodes in New Who because Doctor Who is undeservedly seen by many as just a kids show, but much like characters such as Batman or James Bond, Doctor Who is something that has films, comics or shows that cater to every kind of age range.
Agree completely. It’s an infinite story engine and it allows quite easily for infinite variation for infinite ages
As someone who’s listening to all the 5 and Peri stories currently, they’re certainly interesting even if they piss all over the emotional impact of Caves
interesting how they felt the need to add a whole new companion too.
@@Blartyboy That's more due to the fact Big Finish earlier on struggled to figure out how the have 5 with his own companions due to the fact that unlike 6, 7 or 8 there was no real established period when he was not with a companion.
I would argue The End of Time is also a death story. Mostly with the added context of Waters of Mars. The Timelord Victorious arc as it's called now is about the inevitability of death, how the Doctor tries desperately to escape it, and the fear of death that slowly drives him mad, and almost causes him to just leave Wilfred to die a painful death.
It is bombastic, and stupid, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be a death story as well.
Time of the Doctor and Twice Upon a Time also do this.
@@lucasdolding6924 True. But both of those stories are very hopeful. In Caves of Androzani and End of Time death is terrifying, and something that's not glamorous, or comforting. It's more relatable to people who actually share this fear of death.
@@HiperPivociarz While yes both of them are hopeful they don't view death as hopeful. Regeneration changes what it's supposed to be allegorical for depending on the writer and Moffat clearly views it as a symbol for the sort of great change we're all subject to by the passage of time which I personally think is a more powerful liminal emotion that couldn't be explored in any other way (and also truer to what regeneration actually does for the show).
It of course comes down to your personal lived experience but I find the way death is portrayed in both of these stories with both Smith ageing from the most manic and hyperactive Doctor into a man barely able to walk and Capaldi's Doctor being able to continue living but not wanting to far more relatable and realistically messy portrayals of death than the grand heroic sacrifice of taking a proverbial bullet for a loved one
@@rennythespaceguy7285 But taking a bullet for a human, "not even remotely important" man is the death the character needed, because that's the 10th Doctor overcoming his ego. The ego that drove his fear of changing in the first place.
Also, I just don'tlike Twice Upon a Time, and think the Doctor suddenly waking up at the end of The Doctor Falls, quoting other episodes, and then declaring he doesn't want to regenerate, without that being foreshadowed or set up in any way takes away any emotional investment I would have in that story. It feels so out of nowhere.
Maybe in a vaccum Twice Upon a Time is better, but The End of Time actually set up the character arc they wanted to do.
@@HiperPivociarz Twice upon a time is set up, a key point of Capaldi's era that keeps coming up is The Doctor is tired of losing people and he's tired of his life being on loop(literally heaven sent, his most famous episode spells this out clearly, his life is an endless loop of running from a monster in corridors and needing to burn the old him to make a new one). Like Clara the season before he starts taking stupid risks and is constantly finding excuses to try sacrifice himself like in The Pyramid at the end of the earth, eaters of the light and of course the Doctor falls. So when he is denied his heroic sacrifice for the third time and has lost everyone he finally calls it quits and decides to take it into his own hands. It's all there pretty plainly, dislike it all you want but it is a story that confronts the character with something personal and very real. It's not a coincidence that his run ends with the Shepherd's boy
hi stu i watched this again recently and I love this (mainly) gentle emotionally sensitive incarnation of the doctor juxtaposed (such a grown-up word) to the foil of the harsh violent and uncaring world of the story. this may be one of the best stories in all of the show's history just because of that pairing. nuff said, mark
A long overdue review! Loving these classic serial reviews.
Can we get a chimes of midnight video please? I really want 10 minutes of you geeking out to it!
Nicely done, as ever.
I think that the doctor and peri having other adventures between her first and the 5th doctors last story takes away from the doctors sacrifice, he barely knows her yet gives his life for her.
Also if it makes you feel better about being 30 and still making videos about a kids show, I'm 28 and just finished watching she-ra on netflix for the 5th time and still cry at the ending, it could be worse.
Much as I despise The Twin Dilemma, it kinda works if you think about it as what Caves was so angsty for- it knew the next story would kill the series, so it went out with a very pained bang.
"Caves is most depressing story in Doctor Who"
Skyman: allow me to introduce myself
I concur.
You know now that you mention the "growing out of it", I think I kind of know what you mean? I love Doctor Who so much, but by this point in my life the show isn't the main attraction for me at all. I watch it mainly out of curiousity. I will always continue to watch it, but I don't know if I really... enjoy it? Sometimes I do of course. I want to like Jodie's Doctor and her stories with all of my being but... you know... writing = bad. Or at least writing = not my cup of tea.
Instead I have completely thrown myself into the novels and audios. They are so completely joyous and fascinating for me. They go where I want to show to go. They, in a sense, *have* grown up with the audience. Perhaps I should feel disappointed that the show isn't what I want it to be, but you know? Doctor Who has so much to offer to me outside of what is the mainstream arm of it.
Stranded 2 brought me joy. The Scarlet Empress was one of the most incredibly fun reads I've ever experience in the DW world. So what if its nothing like the show? I still connect deeply to the Doctor and Doctor Who. But it is from a completely different part of the franchise. And really.. I think I'm okay with that.
Wow summed up just how I feel as well, except that I haven't looked into the novels and audios! I keep thinking I ought to but never get around to it. Definitely want to actually get them :)
@@grump9001 I highly recommend both! Big Finish obviously does cost money, but the first 50 main ranges and the first series of the new Eighth Doctor adventures are wonderful and free on Spotify! And if you look hard enough there are free internet archives full of all the PDFs for many Doctor Who books. Including all of the Eighth Doctor Adventures and all of the Past Doctor Adventures.
I remember watching this, absolutely loved it
Twin Dilemmna is my guilty pleasure it's a mess and awful but I find it endlessly entertaining and I genuinely think Colin Baker is incapable of giving a bad performance.
One of my all time favorite stories.
"....there's no ending to it..."
*We're not that lucky*
5:48, kingmaker review when?
You need to do it stuart.
You have no choice.
On a more serious note one of the main things i love about jek is that, out of all the non tardis team characters, he is the closest thing the story has to a good guy. Hes absolutely not a good guy, but compared to all the other characters in the story he has easily the most sympathetic motivation.
Dark and sugar-free Who? I'd be down for more episodes like Demons of the Punjab.
Every season has one or two in that vein. Love it or hate it, Can You Hear Me? fits the bill, I think.
@@peterkorman77 Oh I loved that episode. So different and atmospheric. Wish it was a two parter, but I'm glad it didn't overstay itself and left stuff unexplained.
Its so good i named a podcast after it!
It kinda bugs me that they show you Sharaz Jek's full face. I'd rather get tiny *almost* glimpses of the grotesque, I feel like that would have been more scary and they could have gotten away with more horrible visuals
2:01 Ok, Daleks Master Plan review next please! (personally a 8/10. Great moments for Hartnell & Daleks but stretches itself out way too thin. War Games & Invasion better utilised the massive ep count I felt.)
Interesting take, although I haven’t finished it yet I already feel like Dalek’s Masterplan is using the longer format much better than War Games, mostly because it feels like the plot and characters are actually progressing rather than just getting captured, escaping and repeating that cycle. Yet again, I’m one of those weird people that got incredibly bored during the war games and never saw it’s appeal so it’s probably just me.
@@EditedAF987 War Games does seem to be always be reevaluated every couple of years by fans. Its great, then it isn't, then it is again. I think it holds together mostly due to the sheer scale of the master plot and the emotional final journey of the three regulars. 9/10. Daleks Master Plan, is frustrating to me because it does have many gripping moments and Bill Hartnell really shines but it is a very wafer thin plot considering, and between Ep 3-11 its just a darker remake of "The Chase". Still really enjoy both stories but felt more was at stake for the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe.
IMO "Mindwarp" easily beats this for most miserable doctor who story.
I actually think new who regenerations are taking inspiration from Androzani somewhat. Especially tennant's, in that scene of him about to crash the spaceship in End of Time Part 2 he might as well have yelled "I'm not going to let you stop me now."
It's many times more impactful though when he's doing it just to save ONE person
@@MidnightChimey I agree. End of Time was less borrowing Androzani's stakes and more it's focus on a protagonist falling apart and dying slowly.
Still a wonderful punch to the gut. Thank you.
The Caves of Androzani is one of the greatest episodes of Doctor Who and it introduced me to Peter Davison, Nicola Bryant and Colin Baker and it was one of the first episodes of Doctor Who I ever watched which led me to becoming a fan. The Caves of Androzani is one of the darkest episodes in the series' history and Peter Davison gave one of his best performances as The Doctor. Good supporting cast. Caves of Androzani is a good story. The Doctor and Peri innocently exploring the mining planet Androzani Minor only to get caught up in a ongoing war between soldiers led by General Chillak and android rebels led by Sharaz Jek which they get wrongly arrested for gunrunning. Rescued and held captive by Sharaz Jek and learn they are slowly dying of drug poisoning and the gunrunners thinking The Doctor is a government agent. The episode had some of the best acting in the history of the series and had a few good twists. Like the upcoming 22nd season, Caves of Androzani was pretty violent especially for a Saturday night family series, but, not graphic. Sad it was Peter Davison's farewell episode. The selfless Time Lord sacrificing another of his lives to save his companion from a fate worse than death. Series 21 was a sign that series was getting fatigued with the writing and was slowly on the verge of declining, but "Caves of Androzani" is truly one of Doctor Who's best. Dark. Violent. Brutal. Truly Doctor Who at it's darkest.
This is possibly the greatest ever Dr Who.
Its insane we now know who the 14th and 15th drs are
I remember my first watch fifth Doctor run, and I knew that The Caves of Androzani is considered as the best Who story. So I had a very big expectations. But man, the story blew me away completely away. It was ten times better than I could possibly imagine.
P.S. you should definetly check out a synth-rock opera "The Caves" by the Sevateem that based on this series.
If you want a fantastic adult sci-fi show to watch, then watch Farscape.
Such strong cliff hangers
Have you listened to Circular Time? Just discovered it and it's probably my favorite Five story, concludes his era really well
Yes and yes. Winter is beautiful
@@Stubagful Yes! Possibly the most I've felt from a Big Finish story
This is one of the few channels where I wish the videos were longer. That said I respect quality over quantity and that is why I am a paatreon.
My relationship with brevity is a strange one. Back in around 2012 when I first started, UA-cam had only recently removed limits on video length and most videos that got popular were short and to get recommended, videos ideally had to be shorter. That and I always kept being told by people that my videos were too long and everyone was used to shorter videos on other channels, so I trained myself to become a ruthless editor and whenever I look at a paragraph in a script and I see fat to trim, I trim it. Now: UA-cam trends towards length and I've lost the ability to ramble. I can never win!
Do I smell a Twin Dilemma review in the approaching future? It probably is - no story shits in it’s own shell quite like that one does.
Vindication!
11:04
Am I the only one who kinda likes the Twin Dilemma?
It’s nowhere near as good as Caves but I think the bigger quality dip is from Genesis to Revenge
"Dipshit Mcwangleberry" is now my new favourite insult.
For this episode to make more sense, you have to factor in that Blake's 7 had ended around that time, so a lot of ideas that were left over must have transferred over to Dr Who even though Blake's 7 was a lot heavier than Dr. Who. And out of work Blake's 7 actors resurfaced in the Colin Baker era like Paul Darrow and Jacqueline Pierce. Even though Blake's 7 was not as science fiction based as Dr. Who, both shows had a new style of dramatic acting in common. British Science Fiction Acting, if you will. You never see that style ever in American science fiction. You do see it developed further in Australian science fiction like Farscape.I miss the British Science fiction style in recent Dr. Who. By 2022, Dr Who acting has deteriorated, so if there is any kind of range ,it is mumbling quietly in a dialect to shouting unintelligibly.
I don't know why hearing Colin Baker saying "craggy knob" is so funny to me
Well I find re-watching RTD and Moffat era episodes much more fun than watching Chibnal episodes, so the problem isn't that I've outgrown the show. I'm actually baffled at just what age-group Chibnal is trying to target. He's too patronising and in-your-face for adult viewers, but at the same time the show is too dark to just be for children. Is it just aimed at adults who like being talked down to?
I've heard it's aimed at people who look at their phones whilst watching, which is probably why it points out what's happening on screen. Which is just a terrible idea for many reasons.
@@BH-98 I heard it was trying to be more inclusive to people who are deaf, which I do like the idea of but I'm not sure how much I buy it.
Dark and miserable, perfection
It is the best regeneration story for me, though that's helped by the new series having the habit of going a bit over the top for me in its finales.
I think the major dip in quality in recent years isn’t just because the show hasn’t grown up, I think it’s actually because it’s been dumbed down.
The writing feels like it’s designed far more for children than before. The moral messaging is far more heavy handed than the Davies and Moffat eras were so that even the slowest children can understand it. This is why when Chibnall tries to do something big and meaningful it feels like tonal whiplash and is just laughable.
I always said the vibe of this story felt more like what Blakes 7 would've been like if it's budget wasn't whatever was in the producers pockets at the time an episode was shooting. I think British Sci Fi of the late 70s and 80s at it's best was almost viscous in how cynical it was when you factor in what 2000 AD and a lot of written sci fi was doing. Watching the Tory's come to power off of middle class fear mongering and then Thatcher being a monster left everybody in a dour state that for some reason Americans never really got to in the same cultural zeitgeist kind of way. I think it says something really interesting I can't quite articulate.
This episodes seems to be based off contragate. Where the American president sold weapons to Iran then gave the profits to the contra terrorists in Nicaragua. When Congress had designated the contras a terrorist group
Slightly worse than the techno-babble endings, are the "I am the Doctor, fear me" endings. (At least the "I am The Doctor - run away!" and they do endings, are fewer and farther between than the technobabble ones.)
Nonetheless, your point is well made, sir.
I'd say 'Genesis Of The Daleks' felt almost as unrelentingly dark when first broadcast. (I'm old).
The opposite of "tut-tut-tut... how sad"
Just think if they had got Bowie for this
I'd like to think that a few adventures still took place between Planet of Fire and Caves of Androzani. They weren't really Big Finish stories (I don't consider them canon) but I do think they did travel a bit before they get to Androzani Minor. There seems to be a bit of familiarity between the two of them when they first arrive that I don't think would have happened if the had gone straight from Planet of Fire to Caves.
I agree. This felt very different to usual Dr Who. I just found it unpleasent.
Most miserable... including "The Last"? Also are we ever going to hear your review of Night Thoughts?
What a provocative title. I expected more comments making fun of it.
In Britain moaning has the same meaning as the word complaining.
What goes around was already copied. New Who sometimes copies the "Androzani" format. "Androzani" itself copies the feel of a lot of Hartnell episodes, which were all about narrowly escaping doom.
I started watching Dr Who
when I was twelve with
Planet of the Spiders
Jon Pertwee's last outing as the Doctor
and watched solidly through the fourth Doctor's time
tailing off with the fifth, missing most of the sixth
and picking up with the seventh
I watched the ninth and early tenth
but when I moved abroad - viewing was more difficult
so it has been sporadic.
I think it does have a Peter Pan complex about it
- it has difficulties changing as it is a space and time opera
(like the Archers)
Those last two lines make me want to see The Archers reimagined as a space opera.
I watched this with a friend and while I was aware how stupid the space capitalist was, it made me realise just how stupid he is
The first five regenerations were about the Doctor either being mortally wounded or failing. The first Doctor regenerated after just defeating the Cybermen, the second Doctor had to call on the Time Lords to help him, the third Doctor was poisoned by the Giant Spiders, The fourth Doctor was technically murdered by the Master and the fifth one was poisoned too.
So technically, the Doctor died on Androzani.
I was looking at how some fans (including what you said) about how the Doctor is treated as a God in the recent era of the show, but I just watched a documentary on Cartmel talking about his plan to trying the Doctor more mysterious (ala the First Doctor) after being the butt monkey in the previous years. So this was actually stemmed back from the last few years of the Classic show (This was from the last Doctor Who story you can look on the DVDs). So my question is this; why is the idea of making the Doctor as the most important being bad in the recent show, but not back when Cartmel did it (even though JNT did try to intervene about it)? I know it sounds stupid, but I just feel a bit confused on how fans are complaining on something on the new show, but not in the old show. Does it have to do with the fact that Seven is the only one meant to be a God-like being?
Some people complained about the Cartmel Masterplan too, actually. Look at r/gallifrey for discussions about it.
The Cartmel Masterplan was never completed on screen and JN-T was putting the breaks on it anyway. I don’t think the fans would have liked seeing the Doctor built up as a godlike figure then either
The fact that we went from a Bob Holmes Masterpiece to.. Slugs killed any chance Baker had of being taken seriously. First impressions are everything in British Society. And he came off as a total overacting overweight clown copying Tom's hair & assaulting his companion. It left a bitter taste in even Who fans mouths. The country didn't want him in their living room's after that.
for me at least, the thing with the 5 peri and Erimem stuff is that 5 still doesnt properly get to know peri (especially since Erimem is taking up his time too). So while it does take away some of the impact of caves i feel it adds some too to a degree. In fairness, i just look at that run of big finish plays as a "what if?" series.
It's odd how the "It's a family show" argument tends to either be valid criticism or another bullshit version of the "it's for kids" excuse. The "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" arguments fall flat when there used to justify poor quality. As someone who grew up with Avatar: The Last Air bender, One thing I know for certain is that any target demographic excuses to justify poor quality are bullshit. Avatar: The Last Air bender holds up as an adult because it had effort put into it and it didn't crutch itself with the bullshit excuses. If a show has effort put into it then the audience should never outgrow it.
The "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" arguments tend be subjective case by case scenarios for everything else. With an example from Doctor Who the 1964 Story The Aztecs has inaccuracies to the Aztec mythology. I don't think a show meant for the whole family in 1964 wasn't going to explain details of Aztec mythology and I'm not sure how much of it would be explain nowadays in the show. The main reason the Aztecs believed in sacrifices because they believed that the stars and moon are decapitated heads of Gods that wanted to destroy the world and there current 5th Sun God Huitzilopochtli needed blood in order to protect the world from the stars and moon. The Aztecs also believe that the Earth landmass was created by the remains of a monster called Cipactli that was still alive and needed to be feed with sacrifices. And the reason Huitzilopochtli is the 5th Sun God is that the Aztecs believed the world has ended 4 times and currently exist in a 5th world with 4 different Aztec Gods being Sun Gods to the prior worlds. Explaining anything about this in a show meant for the whole family is going to be highly subjective.
The issues with Doctor Who aren't coming from the "It's a family show" and "it's for kids" bullshit, all of Doctor Who issues come from the bullshit Bad Budget excuse. The main reason the bad budget excuse is a horrible excuse to make something and defend something is the budget does not affect the overall quality of effort. There is a major deference between not affording and straight up being lazy. Not having a lot of money for parts of production is understandable, slacking off on the production that is seen on screen is still being lazy regardless of money. The bad budget excuse also affects the writing to. The writing issues of Oversaturating popular villains, Recycling plots, and barley leaving the UK despite being about traveling time and space exist because of the bad budget excuse. Good writing can save bad production but bad writing will shine brighter with shit production. Stuff can be shit with a big budget. Foodfight! is a bad movie with its 65-million-dollar budget and Destiny is a weak game with its 500-million-dollar budget. Defending anything with the bad budget excuse will just makes people go from "Wow that's bad and outdated" to "Oh it was lazy and shit from the beginning" instead of forgiving or attempting to look past the bad and outdated effects. People can and will forgive a show for its weaker outdated aspects but its hard to do that when the creators and fans are being open on how it was lazy from the get go. When a show uses is budget as an excuse be lazy, all it's doing is taking a gun and shooting itself in the ass.
The bad budget excuse is why Doctor Who has inconsistences in quality. It's odd that the awful stories Warriors of the Deep and The Twin Dilemma are from the same season as the masterpiece that is The Caves of Androzani. Warriors of the Deep and The Twin Dilemma look like shit on top of being poorly written shit, they deserve the hate they get whether you like it or not. I can easily forgive minor faults The Caves of Androzani has because it has effort put into it. And the minor faults being that the cave monster costume looks out of place and the mud core is probably scientifically impossible are just stupid nitpicks to an amazing story.
Strange to think my only real exposure to the 5th Doctor is Spare Parts, Earthshock and this.
Well I mean add in Enlightenmemt and you have a home run. 😃
My fav classic who story.With my least fav classic doctor.
I've honestly never heard anyone genuinely say that doctor who hasn't gotten bad and we've just grown out of it, unless if it was some form of satire.
Many people talk about how they had a similar feeling about feeling they had grown out of Doctor Who around the end of Series 7, but the 50th Anniversary Special really got them hyped up again, as well as the announcement that Peter Capaldi was the new doctor.
It seems like a similar thing is happening here.
That opening rebuttal is probably very specific to me as its a common comment I get and has been for some time now (and as admitted, on some deeper level is probably true)
@@Stubagful I feel for you man- Have always loved your videos and hope everything's going... you know- Good.
You proabably don't remember, but years ago I left a comment complimenting you on that story you wrote about everyone having to have a monster next to them that spits out random social media posts they made whenever it's most inappropriate. I still think it's one of the best stories I've heard, like for real. :)
Exactly why the caves of androzani is the best piece of media ever made
lol
David Bowie auditioned to be this episodes antagonist
Myth
I got an advert for Oreos at exactly 6:29.
Spooky.
Doctor who nontherless will always be among the Top 3 for me together with Avatar the last airbender and Babylon 5
I have always felt that DW should have been more sepulchral & brooding because as pointed out in The Twilight Episode of a Man who Lived forever.. you eventually die of sadness; seeing all your loved ones perish. The Dr shouldn't be so human, & jovial. Nor should he be bitter & angry, but a torn soul. Androzani really hits the nail on the head in this regard. And when he realises that Peri is in danger, he TOTALLY changes & becomes much more fervent in his demeanour.
Secondly, the way it was directed with the Tech & time allotted is impossible to comprehend. The director must have died on set! The style of DW has become like a Disney fairy tale of late. I saw clips of *The Sea Devils* recently & the new Whittaker Sea Devil story. I couldn't believe how awful the new show looked. The classics suffer from obvious tech & funding drawbacks, but Nu Hu just seems like a waste of too much money and no apt writing.
The original, I think was an early episode was set on No Man's Sea Fort in the Solent. It was really claustrophobic, dark, rusty, like a horror. One poor bastard gets killed by a sea creature on board the fort, the other becomes deranged, and then the Doctor runs off in terror - locks himself in a room where this thing starts melting down the door!! At this point my 9 year old runs behind the door! It's gripping stuff! Plenty of suspense, the dialogue is sharp & it just feels more real than the nu stuff which looks worse than a game cutscene!
Androzani has all the Grit & moribund ethos to captivate the audience and reveal slowly that they are not watching just another serial of a long dying show. It has its own rules which they break regularly!
Sharaz Jek the embodiment of Dr Who fans after seeing Peri in a skimpy swimwear in Planet of Fire hahahaha........sigh and drifts of into fantasyland
I wonder if the series could use a more "adult" direction. And by that, I don't mean like Torchwood. More like this story.
What's this?? May favourite reviewer reviewing my favourite DW story?? *noises of uncontained glee*
_Doctor Who_ should never have come back when it got cancelled in 1989. It used to be really good. It has never been as good at it was.
How dare a new generation of fans enjoy something you did too.
@@lucasdolding6924 The old ones that were good are available for the new generation to watch.
There are good and not-so-good stories in both Classic and NuWho.
@@____uncompetative yeah but convincing younger generations to go check out a cult BBC sci fi programme from the 1960’s is a lot harder than it sounds, and it already sounds difficult enough. Without new who already having grabbed their interest, people would’ve probably been less motivated to check classic who out.
And besides, while I agree that everyone has their preference, I don’t think we can really say that one era is OBJECTIVELY better than the other. They’re both equally pulpy, sensationalist, goofy, low budget, contrived in places and sometimes poorly paced. They also have their own merits that the other lacks, like classic who definitely has the better sense of imagination and a lengthier runtime to help properly explore it’s ideas whereas new who is a generally lot better when it comes to character exploration.
@@EditedAF987 new doctor who became irrelevant when streaming came. It needs to be sold or cancelled before it becomes an embarrassment.
Honestly, I think doctor who has become incredibly formulaic. The Doctor regenerates, gets a companion, they travel for three years then they regenerate again. In a world of "We need new! New! More new ideas!" doctor who is just...predictable. Why not switch it up like the third doctor's era. Why not ground the doctor on earth again? Or maybe keep the doctor away from earth for a couple series? Or maybe have two doctors at once? We're approaching 15 years of new who now, you gotta make changes before its too late.
Sometimes you don't outgrow a franchise sometimes the franchise gets shitty Caves of adrozani was my opinion the last really good episode of the classic doctor who before it really went downhill I really didn't like collin baker
I like bleak shit, just as much as you do Stuart, but I always found the idea that if something is for adults, it needs to be gritty and dark childish. It's this mindset that gave us stuff like the spunk monster in Torchwood.
I love gritty, bleak stories from time to time, but not every adult media has to be like this, and not every piece of adult media should. At the same time, having death and bleak imagery doesn't necessarily mean a piece of media is mature.
You should quit with this baby doctor who stuff already and make series about things that adults enjoy, like Adventure Time or that Ducktales reboot from a few years back. Grow up please you're being embarrassing
It's really there's claims that this is the best Dr Who story but really for Robert Holmes it's not even in my top 5 I much prefer The Sun Makers for its cutting humour and it Critique of bureaucracy and over taxation which was a thing at the time thanks to the Energy Crisis and there's even a poke at Dennis Healy the labour chancellor who's Super Taxes effected Holmes personally it's also the perfect example to counter the pro Capitalism of the obnoxious Kaboom which sides with galactic Amazon instead of having the guts to make a 3 partner and give freedom back to the people. Really I think caves strength is it showed not tell which was pretty much what happened with planet of the Spiders which was my favourite finally to a doctor till the Matt Smith final Christmas story which is really when I was kinda done with Dr Who after that the seed of what season 12 and 13 became were put in place with the balance between stories I liked and stories that were Mah got to the point of whole seasons having nothing to offer and being as forgettable as Star Trek Discovery.
Yeah, so this is that one 'classic' DW story which I hate with passion, because I think it disrespects the Doctor and I don't find bleakness for the sake of bleakness valuable. Still, your analysis is on point, and video enjoyable as always. Quite a feat, since this story is a black hole that sucks out all enjoyment from the universe and will probably never stop.
The "skin crawl" comment feels said as your era-PC duty like being scared that the witch-hunters will come and get you if you don't say it.
As ypu say, nothing feels good about watching Androzani. Add that its one of the boring business stories that later Classic had from Tom's third season onwards, and despite your eulogisng of its darkness it contains no memorable morally challenging event,can't see wth folks see in it or why there is such a consensus for it. Leaves me cold, and that's even though Davison is my favourite Doctor.
His acting in the face of death I prefer in Arc of Infinity. There the prospect actually is death, instead of still likely regeneration.
...nnno...it was a creepy moment. It was meant to be creepy. That was quite obviously the point of it. And I complimented it for effectively being creepy
Does fucking everything have to be a culture war? Even an innocuous comment like that
Incredibly overrated. It’s just praised because most of Davison’s run was crap.
i saw the show in 2011 and i cant find were to find it agin help?