House of the Dragon Showrunner Responds to the Blood & Cheese Controversy
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- House of the Dragon Showrunner Ryan Condal responds to the Blood & Cheese criticisms on what they could and couldn't do regarding actors on set and why that scene was hard to film.
Special guest: @TREYtheExplainer
Interview here: www.thewrap.co...
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House of the Dragon is an American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. The main contenders are Houses Targaryen, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Velaryon.
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. house of the dragon, house of the dragon season 2,house of the dragon recap,house of the dragon season 1 recap,house of the dragon lore,house of the dragon breakdown,house of the dragon story,house of the dragon season 2 trailer,house of the dragon analysis,house of the dragon reaction,house of the dragon season 2 episode 1,house of the dragon trailer,house of the dragon season 1,house of the dragon season 2 episode 2
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"I wouldn't want a kid to be traumatized to give me an episode of HOTD." Okay, but how many kids would you allow to be traumatized in order to have Winds tomorrow?
Now we're cooking with fire
😂
🫠
@@OfficialRedTeamReview The children? I mean it didn't work for Stannis, but at this point...
Isn’t a theme of ASOIAF that people who hurt children are bad? 0. My answer is 0.
WE DON'T NEED TO SEE THE KIDS BEING HARMED. The way they did it was alright enough.
We wanted the Sophie's choice aspect, to see the psychological turmoil Helaena went through begging them to kill her, then choosing her youngest who'd then be taunted.
At least if you want to go Oh Helaena is autistic, freeze reaction or *insert excuse here* at least let us see the true horror through Alicent who was in that scene originally. The death could happen off screen, with sounds, as a silhoutte, with sounds as the camera pans to a horrified alicent as her screams are muffled by her gags and a frozen helaena. It would have still protected the child actors.
The majority of that scene would be carried by Helaena not the kids.
I think they are setting up a conflict between Aemond and Aegon by removing his other heir Maelor
Did you folks watch the show on mute? That sound of the saw cutting off the head of A LITTLE KID, bit by bit, is 10 times more gore, to me, than having seen his head chopped off in 1 go. I didn't need to see any shadow or anyone screaming to understand the horror of the scene.
@@memandi2 the problem is not how they showed the act itself, but what happens in the scene and characters missing and her choice being different. AND THE BIGGEST ONE YET: Daemon being innocent
Having the kids be asleep is honestly a pretty clever way of getting around the majority of the ethical concerns in this scene, and I’d mostly be fine with that… if they had just kept the Sophie’s Choice element. That’s really where the majority of my complaints come in. I’m fine with not showing blood, I’m fine with the “kids being asleep” (child actors being off set at the time), I’m not happy about it but I’d be fine with “Your momma wants you dead” being cut and they just go straight for Jaehaerys anyway. There are definitely ways to handle this scene which protect the child actors, as no one but the most terminally online really wants gore at the expense of everything else.
But it’s really the interactions with Helaena which annoy me the most. You could have kept that aspect basically unchanged from the book because Phia is obviously old enough to handle it… but they didn’t, and that’s why the scene is most disappointing for me.
I agree with so much here, although I was ok with Helaena’s reaction considering her characterization on the show seems to somewhat neuro-divergent as a “dreamer.” I think removing the Sophie’s Choice and Alicent was the reason Helaena’s reaction just didn’t feel like enough. Alicent would’ve had the dramatic reaction that scene is missing.
Honestly for me, if they just kept the choice between Jahaerys and Maelor without showing gore and rather focusing on the reactions of Helaena and Maelor, it would be fine but since they removed that, I feel like it removed an essential point in that scene and also messes up the timeline since it seems like Maelor hasn’t been born at this point.
@@taylorlipinski4048
they just said they can't traumatize the child actors, so how can you adapt the part where maelor is told "your mama wants you d3ad"?
@@maggyfrog editing and maybe even CGI
@@maggyfrog they could have used alternate dialogue- similarly to what they use when they send out “sides” to actors auditioning for parts but don’t want the actual script or storyline getting out. Basically it would be a less graphic or scary version of dialogue that the actors could still react to and the more traumatic lines could be dubbed in post.
He doesn’t even answer the most important question of: why remove the Sophie’s choice moment?
“Oh can’t have the kid actors see that”
Then don’t show them on screen! They literally don’t even need to be on set when the main argument and tension is happening.
Also can’t include Maelor because they compressed time? Like this show didn’t age Laena from 12 to 18/19 when she would have been about 15 if they followed the timeline they set up.
I need the interviewers to really push on why he thought focusing on B&C over Helaena and her kids was the best choice and ending it with Alicent riding Criston was the best choice.
They killed a child in front of their mother. As a parent - I didn't need anymore than that. The book did it so people can go there if they really need more.
I also doubt the book was telling the truth anyway because who would have told the Maesters what happened? Heleana kills herself and that only leaves Alicent. I'm not going to trust what she says.
@@WLDB Blood gets caught with Jaehaerys' head in the book and then gets tortured and confesses to what he did. So that gives us three witnesses to the event: Helaena, Alicent and Blood. Helaena doesn't kill herself until a year after the event and in that time she refused to even look at Maelor because of what had happened, so the choice between the two sons clearly happened. There's no reason to doubt the narrative we're given of what happened with Blood and Cheese, the maester doesn't give us other alternative ways it could've gone down. What we know for sure from the book is:
- Two men, a swordsman and a rat catcher, sneak into Alicent's chambers and tie her up while they wait for Helaena to come visit her with the kids.
- They grab them as soon as they walk in.
- They tell Helaena to choose one of the boys and she offers her life instead, but then they threaten to kill everyone in the room.
- She chooses Maelor and then Cheese tells hims that his mom wants him dead.
- Blood decapitates Jaehaerys instead and then the two disappear before any guards show up.
- Helaena goes mad with grief and refuses to look after Maelor.
Alicent and even Helaena could've easily given all of this information when they were looking for Blood and Cheese after the fact. Then Blood could've said the same things in his interrogation, thus confirming the timeline of events and how they happened. This is one of the only events in the book where we have a clear idea of what went down.
I agree. But I also think budget has a role in the decisions made here. This show is more expensive in the first 2 seasons than last last 2 seasons of GOT were and they still cut the episode order which makes me suspect cash flow issues. They basically admitted they considered the actors that played the targ kids extras which means they were likely were paid as extras and not featured actors with representation. Thats a difference between roughly $150 to $250 a day vs. thousands plus residuals. The children can’t have lines in order to get away with this, so no “Mama help!” Etc. Also, scenes take longer to film than it might seem, particularly with child actors, so the children playing a more substantial role would likely require them attend school on set. That requires hiring tutors plus limiting filming time in order to comply with child labor laws. They could’ve intro’d Maelor the same way they intro’d Jahaerys and Jahaera: by just having him pop up playing in the background of a scene for 5 seconds. But to hire a Maelor would mean dealing with a toddler who may or may not be able to take basic direction which could cause delays. I think they tried to do the scene in a way that would allow for least amount of cost and they tacked on the Alicent/Criston thing to get out of the scene in a titillating way that distracts from the fact that we don’t actually get much in terms of reaction to the horrific event that just unfolded.
this. makes one question whether they actually _get_ the source material. the elevated horror from the books version is purely psychological, the graphic part of it they did kinda anyway ...
Maybe Helaena is not played by the next Meryl Streep, and the comparisons might have been embarrassing.
Ultimately I think it was *fine* but it could have been better without breaking said rules.
The Sophia's Choice element was clearly missing and probably the most horrible part of it. I would have also had Daemon paying them to go after Aegon, and omit the bumbling around. You could then just have a scene with Helena sweetly taking care of the children, and a fake out scene with Aegon where you think he is gonna be attacked, before having them appear in the wrong room. That would retain some of the surprise (for show onlys) and increase the impact imo.
This
Sorry, television writer/producer here. I’m calling bullshit on this. They could’ve handled the gore exactly the way they did in the show and still done the Sophie’s Choice portion with Alicent/Helaena reacting to stand ins, creative camera angles to keep the kids off screen when possible and if they needed reactions from the children (I don’t know why they’re acting like you can’t find young trained child actors, typically for mature content you cast an actor that’s a few years older than character but can play younger, probably 7-8 years old to play 5/6) and could’ve used alternate dialogue that would elicit similar reactions without traumatizing them. Then you dub “your momma wants you dead” and the other graphic lines in post. I know fandoms can be ridiculous at times but, come on. Just take the L and stop lying when your creative decisions flop. It’s not the end of the world. But they really act like this isn’t the same show that burned a kid at the stake.
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell you could do it all without the child actors being on set!
I find it far more likely that excuses are being made because they lacked the confidence to restage one of Hollywood's most legendary performances. Meryl Streep got an Academy Award and boundless respect for that role - even from people who didn't care for the movie. HotD might not have enjoyed the inevitable comparisons their version would have elicited.
@@johnnyskinwalker4095 I recently watched the horror movie "The Babadook" for the first time, so it comes to mind as an example of that. When the increasingly possessed mother is screaming violent profanity at her young son, you notice the two of them were never in the same shot.
This is honestly just a cop out response, they took away Maelor’s existence, they took away Helaena’s choice between both sons, they took away Heleana offering her own life and pleading with B&C and they took away her visceral reaction to her son being killed right before her eyes…then just a cherry on top of the shitpile cake, they had her refer to her son as *”the boy”* like he was just some random kid.
Nobody was ever expecting to see Jaehaerys lose his head on screen, we were expecting to see everything else that made this scene so horrific and iconic in the books…not seeing the actual death of Jaehaerys is the least of anyone’s problems, nobody ever thought that was going to be shown.
Yup, everyone seems to missing the point.
By the way helaena pointed at her son and gave away, it felt like she made peace with it already n made a decision tht wt ever she do she cant save him
Thank you. People are being deliberately obtuse and it's even more annoying that the showrunner is treating us like we're dumb by acting like that's what we're critiquing.
brother is so in love with the original story that he’s completely blinded to the greatness of the new.
Everything you just commented on was messaged through the scene, you just have to be able to ready body language.
If you can’t, sorry 🤷♂️ the show isn’t for you I guess.
I see several comment about the "Sophie"s Choice" being eliminated from the scene. Forgive my daftness, but wouldn't one consider the "pointing out which child was the boy" a bit of a Sophie's choice? She was still essentially having to make a decision which one would be murdered. It wasn't obvious in the moment if she truly chose the male child, or if that was a strategical move. It wasn't until the very end where she says "they killed the boy", that we as the audience had confirmation on which child got taken out.
I’m pretty sure Maisie Williams did an interview - or was asked at an event idk - where she said her parents weren’t allowing her to watch her in the episodes, because she was 11/12 when GOT began. (Which then turned around the other way when she said her family didn’t want to watch “that scene” in S8.)
I’d imagine it’s like that for most child actors with roles in more adult stuff where they won’t be allowed to watch the whole movie/series until they’re older, and then once they do, they share the view of most adult actors who can’t bear to watch themselves act. 😂
I seriously hate that they felt the need to include nudity in “that scene “in the last season, like we literally watched this girl grow up. It was so unnecessary.
@@amber88565in the books Arya is r word and goes through way more traumatising shit that is cut out.
@@animegoblin4716 I know there’s traumatizing things in the book. I’m talking about seeing a child actor that we literally watched grow up do a nude scene was not needed.
@@amber88565From what I've read she has total control over that scene and what was shown or not shown.
@@animegoblin4716what, she is not?
the scene still could have been done better imo. omitting alicent's character from the scene was a huge mistake. no gaurds in the castle?? doesnt make sense. and having helaena offer up a necklace instead of her own life like in the book? these things all could have been done without traumitizing the child actors. its a cop out
Yeah I was so dreading it because of how heartbreaking it was in the book and I agree about the Alicent factor!! Otherwise it was (aweful😢) but comparatively mild to my mehhhh relief mixed with the let down😅
Alicent was supposed to be kidnapped first then Helena walks in with the children but the guards are killed in the book.
F+B isnt exactly what happened though. Its in the view of an unreliable narrator 100 years after the events happen.
@Nique1057 these people don't care bro. I've grown to realize that book supremacists will be book supremacists, even when the show meant to tell us what really happened as opposed to corrupted accounts, they will always want things to be closer to the books.
@@Nique1057 no. while there are certain events that we cant be sure what happened, alicent was there during blood and cheese. she would have been able to accurately describe what happened to the maesters and everyone else.
This sounds like a cop out. I get the child(ren) on set restrictions (& respect those), but the issues w/their show version of B&C failed on MULTIPLE levels w/the main ones being: Set-up & Dialogue.
They didn't have to involve the real children. They could've kept the kids sleeping (which were probably dolls bc the beds were draped, so they didn't have to hear the dialogue) & only do the tight shots of showing their faces, when needed (that could be filmed separately anyways).
I said it before/I'll say it again, if the showrunners thought that the "impact" of B&C was the explicit unaliving of a child, they DON'T understand the book version.
& Condal choosing to make it a "heist gone wrong" was another poor choice.
My mom/sister/bro are "casuals/normies" -- have zero knowledge of source material -- & they were CONFUSED more than horrified or shocked. I know many other non-book readers who also report the same confusion (& frustration with how it went down; B&C bumbling around vs having a plan).
& it introduced more questions, which led to further confusion: Why didnt Daemon just go w/them? 3 vs 1 against Aemond, the (new main) target. Why did Daemon ever risk going to KL in the first place? Why didnt B&C even TRY to find Aemond?
^^all valid questions I've heard/read that are introduced bc of their changes.
& ultimately, at the end of the day, if there's more critiques/misunderstandings as the main audience takeaways, that's a FAILURE ON THE SHOW/writers.
as a filmmaking major none of what you said what work.
My friends and I did not read the book and non of us were confused. I don't how your family members were confused by what was going on. It was straight forward from the jump and using sound effects was also effective and horrifying. The camera cut away from the scene when the man asked "what if we can't find Aemond", the camera shows Daemon and then cut away which was implied to get the heir. If you watch the reactions to episode one from UA-camrs they were all horrified and none were confused and most of them DID NOT read the book either .
@@trev9168 As a filmmaking major, yes it would have if you know what you are doing. You could for example keep them in bed all the time and have the "your mom wants you dead" line while the kids are either out of frame (So you don't need them in set) or just zoom in Cheese face, is really not that difficult to pull off.
FACTS. Also I mean Daemon is not dumb enough to think these two idiots would kill Aemond.
@@johnnyskinwalker4095 think you guys are missing the point. It’s not about actuality killing anyone. It’s about sending a message. “We can get to you anywhere, even in your own beds while you sleep”
I think Ryan is full of shit and dodging the true criticism fans had about the scene. Most normal, rational people would not want toddler actors to simulate getting decapitated on screen for their viewing pleasure. We understand there are limitations to what you can do with you kids on camera.
The true issue is the other changes. Removing Helaena's Sophie's choice, having her offer her necklace instead of her own life, and most egregiously having her walk in on her own mother giving her bodyguard a pony ride after such a traumatic event.
There was no reason for them to remove Alicent from this scene-no reason other than to make her seem like the worst of villains for deciding to bone her bodyguard while her grandson was being brutally murdered. Its turned a tragic, horrifying scene into a borderline telenovella slapstick moment.
You're right. He's a goddamn coward. I haven't seen anyone complaining that it lacked violence. Fans are pissed because it took away the most traumatic element...Helaena being forced to choose and then Blood and Cheese betraying that choice. If you want to take it further you can talk about how B&C walked right through the castle without anyone asking a question. You can talk about how there were no guards in Helaena's chamber or how Alicent wasn't there to witness it either. Plenty to complain about but we sure as hell don't care about the lack of violence against a child on screen. Condal is a hack and a coward.
This was all about making the blacks look better.
@@senister14something Ryan condal has been doing since season 1 subetly initially but now is openly doing it to the point even most hardcore team black supporters are able to notice what’s going on (at least on Facebook)
@arunsingla3452 yeah, it's like they don't get what's best about this story is that neither Aegon or Rhaynera are the bad guy, it's everyone around them forcing them to fight that's the bad one.
@@arunsingla3452 Look, I myself am Team Black leaning (smallfolk is always my true priority, and they get fucked as long as there is a Monarchy so, team smallfolk), but the whitewashing is annoying. Rhaenyra was made into a saint who lacks any personal ambition whatsoever. Where is the woman who called down curses on the greens as she was brutally losing a child? The woman who said 'tell my half brother I will have my crown or I will have his head?' No, instead we get this 'elevated' Angel of the House peace loving nurturer who is willing to bend over backwards to maintain ThE pEaCe. Oh, your son brutally killed mine? No, it's fine, here, kill another! Annihilate my allies, and insult me more! I can take it, I will forgive you, like a good, rational merciful woman, who is above the EvIl WaRmOngErInG men. Because war is always bad and I must maintain peace at all costs 🥺 like imagine if Robb decided he needed to avoid war after his dad was killed? If he snuck into KL to speak with Cersei after Ned was beheaded cause think of the poor smallfolk. These people are feudal Lords. Very few of them ever give a fuck abt smallfolk (except Egg, cause we stan a commoner king). Rhaenyra should have gone nuclear after Luke, period.
And don't even get me started on the dumpster fire that was Alicent. Just... fucking kill her character off, idc about cannon anymore. Anything is better than her being on screen doing... whatever the fuck she's doing....
It could never be a Red Wedding of HOTD. We spent close to 4 seasons with Rob and Caitlyn. How well did we know any of those characters in HOTD
I feel people who say that don't understand why the Red Wedding was special
Red Wedding-type of event happens later in the story. (Gullet)
But Blood & Cheese could have served a more similar role as Stannis' murder of Renly, in terms of shock.
@@WritingGeekNL I mean it did accomplish that for the viewer. Can't find any show only person who didn't find it a shocking scene.
Doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been better. I could have been better.
@@Dr_Grant_Seeker absolutely but comparing it to the Red Wedding is a unfair comparison that's all I was saying.
The ‘legally we can’t do that’ is such a cop out. No one is really asking for a 6 year old to be beheaded on screen. We want Helaena to actually have that choice between the two kids and for blood and cheese to decide the other one will die. The kids can be off screen for that.
And not to mention they brought the Jaheaerq actress into the room where Cole and Alicent are having sex :/
THIS!
Not to mention, didn't they have the Robin Arryn actor sucking on the (prosthetic) breast of his mother in GoT?
I do think they are choosing to be ignorant of the actual criticism. Or, it is yet another example of them not understanding the book or scene at all and altering it and, in doing so, taking out the actual emotion or nuance of it.
@@christina9725 the response just seems really ignorant to me like they’re saying “come on guys you know we shouldn’t show a kid get decapitated” when that’s not most peoples actual complaint at all
@@frozenandchosen Exactly! They are pretending that is what they believe the criticism is about because they can't acknowledge the actual reason for the criticism. They have no way to explain it away other than their lack of understanding of the significance and ramifications of the book scene. But, just like GoT, they are going to end it in the same way, expecting/believing they have done enough to warrant the conclusion. Sometimes they were successful in GoT, but other times....well, we all saw the last season.
Holy shit you're right. I really hope that Helaena's actress was carrying a doll.
They could’ve at least switched out the “I have a necklace” scene with Helaena offering up her life for her children instead. Like it’s the small things that were missing from the scene that matters as well.
Problem with that scene, it's that it will become a repeat scene. In the show, when Blood ask Cheese who Helaena is, Cheese said the Queen and Blood replied a Queen is not a son, if Helaena offered her life he will have to say that again. He literally said that about the necklace too. Makes for a lot of redundant dialogue.
That wouldn't make sense. They literally said ''A son for a son he said, does she look like a son to you?'' to Haelena. Her offering her life after that would be some s8 GoT level dialogue.
@@MindlessTurdYou're acting like "does that look like a son" was written in stone. It was stupid for anyone to say that in the first place without it being determined that she needed to die. They could have saved that line until after she offered herself. Once she heard that line, the necklace offer while knowing they came for the son of the king (or whatever she thinks they came for) was the GoT S8 level writing. Absolutely trash.
@@BDnevernind womp womp
@@BDnevernind Mission from the start was Aemond, A SON!!!!
Shireen Baratheon anyone?
The actor was already 15 at that point, and the scene (from the production pov) had no graphic elements. Maisie Williams did a lot more graphic stuff than her when she was younger. And tbf, GoT and its wide amount of young actors probably helped making these rules more strict (rightfully so)
Film scenes with kid actors present, not involving violence and other traumatizing things. This doesn't have to be much, they don't need to be on-screen most of the time as they are barely characters and the drama is more about Alicent and Helaena.
Remove kid actors from the set.
Film scenes with blood, gore and violence. Film scenes with screaming, shouting etc.
This is hardly a new system and no excuse.
That's what I'm saying, the kids don't even have to be on set. You do some classic filming trickery with close ups, etc...
Nothing like a non-specific legal and moral defence to assuage arguments that you just didn’t do a good job of adapting this scene.
There’s nothing legal or otherwise that prevented them from
- having Alicent present
- having the Sophie’s choice
- having Haleana be more emotionally responsive
- having the characters be surprised by B&C
- having guards be accounted for
There’s so little of the scene that actually requires the active participation of the children or require them to be in camera that any capable director could have executed the scene with minimal use of these actors.
Easy way around it. Film the scene in full, child actors and all, but give the adults alternative dialogue, so they're not saying horrific stuff in front of the kids. Then the grown ups can re-record the dialogue in a booth later and dub over their dummy lines. ADR (additional dialogue recording) is common practice.
I've said many times that game of thrones would be better as anime because of how over the top it is
That could really work!
@@michaelbuick6995 you start animating the titties and beer and I'll get working on flement brax's unicorn helm
Hi, film producing degree here, if you go back and rewatch GoT, there's never a wide shot of an adult actor saying or doing something inappropriate in front of a child actor. Usually the child will have their head turned away from the camera so they can use an adult stand in, or they will J/L cut (using audio from another shot over the top of the current shot) to or from the child actor doing a close-up reaction. I'm thinking of Rorge's threat to Arya at harranhal in season 2 as an example. In the case of that scene, Arya didn't have to be on set to hear Rorge's dialogue, but she'd be brought in and the director would just tell her "the scary guy just threatened you. Look scared and run away". Yes, it's a pain on set to work around, but the industry has been doing it for years. In the case of HotD, those actors were too young to take serious direction - what does a 6 year old think trauma looks like, etc. But doing the scene as presented in the book wouldn't be impossible using adult body doubles, some shaky cam, fast editing, and extreme close ups.
Exactly.
6 year olds on set would probably just be confused, which is probably how a 6 year old would react in a real Blood and Cheese situation, so you probably could use their real reactions. Give the adult actors fake family friendly dialogue to speak in front of the kids then ADR the real lines later. Editing can work miracles.
The scene worked amazingly for non-book readers. Which is the majority of the audience.
The bait and switch of the assassins going after Aemond and then who they end up un-aliving was shocking. That never would have happened if they had stated that Jaehaerys was the target from the beginning.
The scene was suspenseful and surprising for the unsullied.
yuuup
Didnt work for me.
As a book reader I felt insulted.
That is bs. I get the limitations, but I’m sure with some well done editing they would be able work it out. Also, the main critique everybody had was towards Helaena's reaction and the dialogue between the adult actors, so I don’t buy it
AGREE 💯!
Yeah it's definitely a dodge.
Yup. These guys are full of shit. The scene was terrible
Agree. Filmmakers are just cowards these days. 80% of the movies made before year 2000 could not be done today due to political correctness etc. etc. you mean to tell me they couldn’t CGI something??
To me I think they decided to do there own spin on the scene thinking it would work but then once audiences complained about seeing it as underwhelming there now saying this story to deflect lol
Come on, would just having the Maelor “choice” part of the scene really have crossed a line? We didn’t need more gore - we just needed that psychological horror.
The kids being asleep vs awake isn't the issue - real kids didn't need to be traumatized for this. Removing Helaena's awful choice and its reversal by B&C though, removing Alicent from the situation, removing the commotion with the maid and the guardsman being killed - all that took away from the dramatic impact. The whole "your momma wants you dead" thing - yea, that's a horrifying line that makes the scene for sure, but even that they could have worked around, showing a closeup of Cheese whispering that into the crib or something without actually having a kid on set for that. My point is, I get that they needed to tone SOME of it down, but the toned it WAY down. I didn't hate it, it was fine, it got the job done, but "fine" is not what i was hoping for from one of the most famous scenes from that book.
I don't by this when they had child fighting pits last season. Not showing a child be decapitated wasn't what ruined the scene for me and a lot of people. Its the needless removal of key dialogue and choices that would have added more tension and horror to the scene. The children still could have been asleep during the negotiation and Allicent could have been there too. Is she LEGALLY not allowed to be there?
Exactly. I feel like it was keep too much too a minimal and done too quickly.
If yoy watch the behind the scenes the kids in the pit were child proformers, I believe dance proformers so they were older than the kids in this scene
Not an excuse. A good showrunner can get creative. The whole point of the scene was for the surviving son to be traumatized for life knowing his mother chose him as sacrifice for his brother.
No, Maelor was just too young. His mother and grandmother would be…
thats pretty tramatizing for the child actors! no decent person wants to see toddlers get killed on scene, that would turn off alot of viewers..
It's easy just frame the shot on Helena and aliciet reacting to what's happening like they did in the show. With the kids on set not being present for the dark part and just have them act scared and confused asking their mom what's happening. But keep it to a minimum given child actors being, let's say limited ability wise. Then you can have the seen as in the book and not showing the actual beheading, just hearing it. Like they actually did. Which I thought was a good solution.
That was not the point. That's a weird takeaway given Maelor is dead within a year.
@@TriNguyen-iu2vi you can do creative editing where the children don’t need to be there.
The dark knight kinda did that, towards the end when harvey flips a coin and he hold the kid and hes crying, however the kid was older, it would be much harder doing this with younger kids and more of them.
City of God also has this in the gang initiation scene. The director told the actor to tease the kid a lot off screen in real life so that by the time it came to filming, the kid would cry naturally. Brazil, man. 😅
For the commentary with the child actor in got, they skip the sex scene, those scene dont have commentary from the actor of Arya, bran and sansa
Thanks for informing me of this
In Game of Thrones they didn't show the baby being killed, they cut the camera to the mother's reaction, they did the same on House of the Dragon.
That lady actually acted, Helaena didn’t
No one needed to see anything gruesome. I just wanted to see the choice itself, and Cheese telling the surviving son “your mom wanted you dead” before killing the other one off-screen.
They cannot tell that to a child who is too young to udnerstand that those words being said to them is NOT pretend. Whine about something else.
@@blissinchains Sure they can. Happens all the time in filmmaking, it’s called “acting”. Whine to deez nutz.
@@blissinchains They didn't need to have a 2-year-old present for that, they could've had some bolts and pistons in a crib to pretend there is a baby or use actual puppets and whisper it to that puppet ... Helaena couldn't be around Maelor after that anyways meaning that she didn't even need to act around a toddler to not want to have anything to do with him.
I think because nowadays there is so much CGI that people forget how movies were made back in the early days and the use of props and puppets ...
It is not the decapitation we wanted to see. The kids could've not been there at all but Halaena needed to sell us the scene through offering her life, through her emotions. That's all we needed to see. Blood could then be shown going to the bed she points to and we hear the sounds. That's all
I mean they could still have done it with shot reverse shot and just filmed the shots with the kids separately, so they wouldn't have heard the actual dialogue. Or have the kids stand facing with their backs to the camera and replace them with dummies. Or have them clutch their moms skirt and bury their faces in it, so you can't see them. I feel like there would have been ways to do it, but it's fine as it is, so why even talk about what could have been.
The bigger issue is Daemon hiring them to kill Aemon instead of just having them kill the kid. Which was a bit out of character for him. But alas. I just hope they get the god's eye right when they eventually get to it.
Daemon will accidentally slip from his saddle because he forgot to tie himself to it instead of deliberately jumping, his sword accidentally falls out of his hand onto Aemond. He screams "sorry" as they both fall.
@@kallemort Worst thing is, both actually wanted to be somewhere else but got lost and by chance met at the gods eye.
But weren't the children de-aged here? I think this wouldn't be such problem if they weren't meddling with timline.
I felt they should've had the Sophie's choice situation, then, right as Blood is about to kill the child, the shot cuts away to Alicent's face, followed by Helaena, who screams. Then they wouldn't have needed to film anything bad around the children. Still, the scene was fine. People just like to whine.
So you were happy with everything about season 8 then? Didn’t whine about anything?
@idawg7332 I thought it was badly executed, but thought (and continue to think) it ridiculous that people were whining that Daenerys broke bad. The signs were there.
So people aren't allowed to complain when a scene feels totally off and leaves them with no emotion? We're just supposed to shut up and say thank you?
@musakamara4157 Of course people are allowed to complain, but most of the complaints aren't about emotions; they're about how the scene differed from the book. Given the prominence of unreliable narrators in the stories, and the Green-favoring bias by this particular narrator, who is also cobbling his narrative out of differing accounts from three also-unreliable narrators who didn't even witness the murder, there's no reason to think that the maester's account is any more accurate than what we saw on TV.
@@burntorangehorn This is why I hate that fire and blood isn't supposed to be an accurate account of westeros history. Because anytime they make a bad writing choice people can just go ItS MAeSteR PRopAGaNdA. Sorry but they screwed up. People who didn't read the books care more about the dog getting kicked and alicent and cole having sex than they do a child getting his head cut off now.
Blood and cheese is supposed to be where you start too see the blacks becoming just as bad as the greens and instead team black supporters all think it's completely fine. They cut maelor, and they didn't have enough scenes of aegon helaena and alicent bonding with the kids for the scene to have the proper impact. I'm fine with not showing the gore, they could have done what the animated lore video did and cut away and just had a sound effect and some blood splatter.
I watched the scene with someone who had no idea what was about to happen, and they were stunned. Im also fine with Halaenas reaction, its been established she freezes in shocking moments.
I disagree with folks saying Helaena didn't show a reaction to the murder. I read her response as stunned horror. She was moving mechanically as if in a trance, barely reacting to Alicent and Cole.
I didn't expect her to react like Catelyn. Methinks Hel is going to be a husk from this point forward
She was doing cartwheels 24 hours later
The main purpose of this scene should have been to show the nuances of the war, of how both sides are equally awful and wont even spare children to advance their cause. This scene entirely came and went without any dramatic impact. It didnt even need children's presence to do so , haelena and alicents reactions wouldve been enough but instead they made haelena autistic and alicent a sex addict
No matter what you can't please everyone.
you can if you do it right
@@johnnyskinwalker4095No, you can't. There isn't a single show or movie in existence that doesn't have someone who doesn't like it.
@@WLDB But there would be less criticism if they did it right.
Another thing to keep in mind with blood and cheese is the nature of the source material they're adapting - they have an opportunity to show the rumors about this event get more and more grizzly as the season goes on and by the end of the series they could have someone in the streets telling the stories of the early war closer to they are in the books, and I think that could make up for not including the Sophie's choice angle in the first episode
The narration of season 5 stories and lore makes these scenes seem so much more iconic than what we're actually seeing. It's not just this but also the death of lord Beesbury. Very underwhelming. Well at least we won't be disappointed with the battle at rooks rest hopefully.
lol, I don’t think anybody was looking for kids to be traumatized. It was basically every other decision that differed from the book
Annnnd that book is not a true recounting of events; we are seeing the 'true' way things happened as per George, so. Whine more.
Everyone in Hollywood is a hack. Even the greatest films and series aren't immune to these inexplicable bouts of incompetence.
I think Ryan gave very good explanations regarding why there were a lot of changes. I admire how quickly he came out too, describing the team's decision (and he was aware of time that some people might have issues 😅)
It begs an important question-- what can we realistically expect from a TV adaptation (keeping in mind that the actors are real human beings)?
Thank you, I appreciate your content ❤
Two ways they could have kept the "your mama wants you dead line":
1) focus on Helena's face as Blood goes off screen and we hear him say the line. Maybe cheese has her mouth covered when this happens
2) blood looks down at the camera facing the audience and tells "us" the line, then the scene goes black. May not be a choice because it breaks the 4th wall and GoT/HotD don't want to use this kind of editing
I'm sure there are other ways, but these two come to mind
I was at a Comic con in Belfast (around season 5’s end) where they had among other actors, the actor of Rickon. It seems there is a great deal at the discretion of parents as well regulatione as the actor who was still under 18 said he’d seen some things and had been aware of the shows reputation but was only really allowed to even watch the scenes with him in it 😂. Granted he was 18 by season 6 so that fell away, but still interesting to wonder where that line is.
I’m reminded of Halloween 4 where the whole movie Michael Myers is trying to stab a ten-year-old girl. The actress, Danielle Harris, says she wasn’t traumatized at all by the experience.
Well, age does make a difference. These were not ten-year-olds. They were like 3 or 4 at most.
God she was great! To be fair I was watching all of those Halloween movies at her age. It was a different time for sure!
@@thatamericanbritishbloke5672 you make a valid point. Another point I didn’t consider is Danielle Harris was playing a staring role and therefore had more time to get comfortable with the other actors. In contrast the actress on HOTD wouldn’t have had much time to do the same given her limited screen time. Even in the source material the character didn’t do much other then get killed so the writers would need to add stuff for her to do if they wanted her to be more comfortable for a more in book accurate scene.
A 10 year old would understand what is happening is not real. A 4 year old, not so much, they’d be terrified. They had the actor of Jaehaerys father cover his face instead of blood
Red Wedding of HotD? Nah, the way it's written as very matter-of-fact with no build up or suspense (since it's written like a historical text and not a novel) never made it feel that way for me. It felt brutal AF, but I didn't feel like I was going to have a heart attack from the shock of what was happening.
Yeah I’ve always hated the comparison. The red wedding isn’t so infamous just because it is shocking and brutal, it’s because of the characters that it happened to. Rob and Cat were two of the biggest characters in the show that we had followed for seasons and the audience we’re made to be invested in their motivations and drive to avenge Ned and secure their family’s safety. Even after Ned’s death, the plot of avenging him made them feel untouchable, so to see that all be brutally cut short due to the consequences of their own actions is hard to see even though it makes total sense. Blood and Cheese could never be that. Jahaerys is a child, and while the death of children is a unique brutality that affects most people especially badly, we have literally no connection to him. He has no character or motivations because he’s too young to display any of that on screen. Blood and cheese is far more about what it means for the rest of the cast than the event itself. It’s about showing the brutality the Blacks can be capable of, as the morality of this conflicts gets greyer, and the effect such an inflammatory attack has on the greens. Both scenes are designed to be shocking and violent but they are using those elements to do very different things in their stories so they were never going to hit the same.
The number of people who say this scene WASN'T traumatizing as it played out onscreen is honestly BAFFLING to me. It was HORRIFIC to me, and what was worse was the SOUNDS of what was happening. I didn't see that there was a removal of a horrific choice for Helaena, either: she could tell them which of the children was her son, or she could risk not telling them and have them kill BOTH children in retribution. For a "dreamer" like her, someone who isn't as grounded in reality as the people around her, this was a crushing moment when reality became a living nightmare for her.
Not all of us read Fire and Blood, several of us were warned off it, told that if we enjoyed the ASOIAF books, we might rethink this one because it wasn't as compelling. I watched plenty of reactors last week lose their minds when they saw this, and one new-ish father who could barely get through the end of the episode. Adapting books for movies/tv is NEVER a 1-to-1 thing. We can't be this precious about seeing these things brought to life.
GOT s2 e. 01 had a baby killed in a brothel. Ramsay also fed his stepmother and baby to his dogs. They didn't show it but the reactions of the mothers told the story. Halaena should've done the same to make up for the lack of visuals. That is all that was needed but they made her into this weird one dimensional NPc who is just there to spit weird prophetic lines and not a character. This was her moment to be a character
Honestly I'm fine with the violance being toned down. The bigger problem was that the scene in general was badly executed.
Game of Thrones season 1 Ned Stark's execution is actually pretty PG-13. We don't see the gore and we don't need to, and that scene is 10 times the gut punch that Blood and Cheese ended up being.
the show will get way more violent later on
In a show with a building sized dragon, i cant see any excuses for saying
"we had to remove the "Sophie’s Choice" aspect because we couldn't figure a way to have two young children stand in a room with 3 other talking adults, with out traumatizing them. ADD DIAOLOG AND A KNIFE IN POST!!! ITS NOT HARD!
there is NO good excuse given so far given that allows the show to insist that they couldn't do it due to the age of the children....
they could have got a dole and dressed it up like the kid and shot it from behind or something.
Your explanation and summary of the blood and cheese incident, makes me feel better.
Glad to hear it
Honestly it’s an excuse. They just couldn’t figure out how to do it, but it can be done. As a video games industry veteran this is a familiar feeling. Sometimes you fail, and just because it’s hard it doesn’t make it less of a failure. There were a lot of bad choices in that episode, even within the direction they took with it.
With proper planning and trickery, they didn't even needed to have the children on set.
I would think you could tell the child actor, "Act like you were just told something very hurtful or scary", have Blood's face off-screen, then dub in "You hear that, your mother wants you dead" with ADR. But obviously I don't know the ins and outs, and even if it's not a completely sound excuse, it's wacky to prefer Benioff and Weiss.
7:05 These aggro GOT fans don't know what they've got, try being a star wars fan atm before complaining about minor plot point is changes in your beloved franchise. We are spoiled to have house of the dragon
Don't start talking about Star Wars. Disney had one job: Give us some nice Yuuzhan Vong and their terra forming horror and some Zonama Sekot and freaking Mara Jade (I'd take her or Jaina Solo any day over Rey). But no, they made all that "legends". The only good things since Disney took over were Rogue One, The Mandalorian, most of The Book of Boba Fett and Thrawn in Ahsoka (for which they had to reintroduce one of the best characters of the old Expanded Universe).
But sure, if the only thing ever watched was Episode I - VI, the new movies feel "so cool" and sometimes confusing as Disney is adding in things from the Expanded Universe at random and without thinking.
The problem was they didn't show the horror of the mother in having one of her kids murdered in front of her.
what are you talking about ? She was horrified, the actress did a great job. It is also implied that she has visions and knew something horrible was going to happen not knowing the tragedy was going to happen to her.
@@melissagreye8445Emotional intelligence isn't a trait many have sadly. She did an amazing job and it gave me soo much anxiety especially when she stops in between all the different pathways and she's all frantic 🥺 you can clearly tell she's feeling a combination of Fear and regret for leaving her child behind but she knows that she'd only be endangering her daughter by trying to fight them.
@@AmbeanWambulance But it's not on the level that it was in the book. It was very subdued.
Have u even watched the first season? It's Haelena's way to react, her eyes are much more expressive than any dramatic scream u can imagine
@@pablovazquez4072exactly!!!💯
The “what kind of American are you” scene from civil war is ten times more intense than this was.
I remember there being a controversy with kindergarten cop at the time, the Wikipedia article references mentslfloss article that describes an incident that was likely what I recall.
I'm sorry, but the fuss is all centered on the absence of the, "Sophie's Choice" dilemma. Which is starting by conceding that it's a retread of a famous scene. It's a dumbed down version of a movie, made from a book, over 40 years ago. Being this upset over Martin's complete lack of originality seems disproportionate, to say the least.
The book narration isn’t accurate to what really happened as per GRRM so the events that took place on the show although less brutal than the book were more in line with the truth of the event. The second hand retelling in the book was more of an exaggeration to draw sympathy for the greens like portraying Alicent as having been witnessed to the event etc.
If you rewarch the kid commentaries youll notice they only talk over maybe half the episode tops. I noticed the first time i heard them that they had to be watching and commenting on edited episodes.
Maybe Dave and Dan didnt know or care about ethical rules. Remember the waterboarding? And the hose masters just telling them "no, we cant shoot that, its cruel to animals."
No WAY! In Condal I trust!
It’s hilarious seeing these comments coming from a good number of people who’ve never been on a film or tv set, and don’t understand FCC rules, film/tv laws, etc. Until you’ve been part of or made a project yourself that’s an adaptation and you understand how you can’t adapt EVERYTHING, you’re just blabbering out of your mouth lol
Did he ever respond to the Rhaenys debacle from season 1 that was completely unnecessary?
Yea they said they wanted a "Yes Queen!" moment.
trey is just preston with some voice filter
his facecam is just a pre-recorded mocap that preston responds to. genius
without the edge
it all happened since Miguel Sapochnik left the conversation
Could be.
I would presume, given the age of these children, they wouldn't understand that it's just theater. I presume they would genuinely feel in danger.
Regarding the "they're cunts" part, I am sure the child wasn't on set when Aegon said that. They can film scenes in such a way that the people don't all need to be in the same room. I presume Aegon was mostly talking to the room, and they filmed the bits with Tyland and the kid and their ball in another take.
This is honestly a pretty lame excuse. Like, you don't need to have the kids on set when they're delivering that specific line, just film the dudes and the queen - then you cut and show the kids. Or you can have the actors say something else and use ADR to change the line on the actual show.
It's not that simple. You can't bypass laws
Na that’s a fair explanation for the change I suppose they could have used manaqins for that part though. But I get where they were coming from.
It could have been achieved with editing!
A lot of those GOT actors are in a different union since they aren't American actors but I know SAG rules state a parent or guardian has to be with a child whenever they are on set.
True. The exact same scene from the mother's POV would have had the better reaction.
Sorry. Don’t buy it. There’s this thing called editing. Not saying I can’t get over it, but still…
This sounds like a cop out to me. They could have easily added a year or two somewhere in season one and made it work.
And as for the shooting it with the kids, it can be easily worked around. They didn't have to show the kid getting it's head sawed off. So they could have easily shot all the shots with the kids in a morning or whatever and had it matched so the dialogue is fine for the shots. Then shoot everything else another time without having to have the kids on set.
It's easily done with a little planning.
It's not that simple
I think some folks are missing the point of the blood & cheese scene, the castle was EMPTY and earlier Larys told Alicent he was now in control of staffing
Larys wouldn’t have had any control over security, though. Criston Cole was responsible for making sure the royal family was being properly guarded.
He's lying. He's just making up excuses to justify his writing choices. They could've done it.
What does it matter ? the book is not a first hand account of anything. The scene worked as is.
@@melissagreye8445 worked and a massive letdown from what it could be are not mutually exclusive.
Maybe someone could give me a reference to the agressive backlash towards this episode that y'all are mentioning, because I haven't seen anything beyond mild annoyance/fair criticism about Blood and Cheese within an overall well received episode.
Also, I don't think trying to compare the book version to the Red Wedding is very accurate, because we have no history with these characters. It is definitely meant to be abrupt and jarring above all else. I'd say the show version definitely isn't as good as the book version, since it's less complex from a character perspective, but it works as a slightly less brutal way to move the plot forward.
You could still make her choose between the boys. Don't understand why Maelor wasn't part of it.
I d rather miss on a thousand great scenes than having actresses harassed like in GoT.
For the GoT commentary in question, Isaac, Maisie and Sophie had to leave the room whenever a sex/nude scene was coming up
More people were fine with early GoT changes because they didnt yet know where that would lead down the line.
With HotD, people are aware what unnecessary and stupid changes to the source material will bring to the overall narrative.
Sounds like a skill issue. They could have done it like the book without making it graphic.
the sounds of the kids head being cut off were actually horrible. the foley designer for that episode must have needed trauma counselling- to have to capture the knife cuttingthru neck....
im a former film assitant editor so i took special notice of the foley -u can hear- in detail- the knife sawing thru , in turn- the skin, muscle and then bone-and then the tearing. u can hear it all.
My only issue is that instead of knowing that what’s gonna happen I wish they made an element of surprise. Us the audience not seeing Damon negotiating with cheese. Would have been much better if we the audience were in heleana’s scene and suddenly these men show up and ask for her son. That would have been much better imo
I agree with the frustration over the adaptation when it’s been pretty faithful overall , more than GoT even.
I was disappointed at first, but they made some good points here
This is a valid response to the insane people who have been asking for more gore or violence to be shown on screen but is still a cop out , in my opinion, to those who have questioned the creative decisions like removing Sophie's choice and casting Larry and Moe as blood and cheese. But I think Condal gives a clue here to the actual reason. Removing Maelor seems to be the butterfly effect that required the entire scene to be written differently. And Maelor was probably removed due to what Condal mentioned here. The death of Maelor is insanely brutal in the books plus it's not really clear how, but each variant is horrible and filming would be close to impossible. So they had to remove Maelor which caused the domino effect resulting in Ketchup and cheezit.
Maelor's death in the books gives us several versions but one is totally bloodless and could easily be filmed with a doll. I could easily see that one being the real one, and the more...unhinged, versions of what happened at Bitterbridge are just mean-spirited stories. Maybe someone tells Alicent Maelor was hacked to pieces just to be a total dick to her.
1 - the fact that they let the kids do commentary on episodes with violence or possibly even sex scenes doesn't validate that, but is just another point where the showrunners were dangerously reckless. I mean by that logic, Dan Schneider allowed Nickelodeon child cast members to wander around set _without chaperones_ -- the fact he allowed it doesn't make it "right", it's Schneider being irresponsible.
EDIT: I don't have it on hand and I'm busy so I can't rewatch right now, but the kids in Season 1 specifically did commentary for episode 3 "Lord Snow" - I don't know if they skipped nudity bits. Of course, that was relatively speaking one of the tamer episodes - it's the only episode no one dies in! No "sex" as such.....when Catelyn goes to hide at Littlefinger's brothel I think you see one or two topless women lounging around....and you DO see Daenerys and Drogo naked post-sex, lying on each other in such a way you don't see any frontal nudity.....but yeah we should probably go back and check how they handled that.
2 - Hodor was wearing a stunt penis. They explain that. It was a realistic prosthetic penis. And pretty much every bush you see on the show is a merkin. As Fabien Frankel explained with Alicent.
But you raise serious questions: after that "All Quiet on Set" documentary we can't take this kind of thing lightly.
Remember the walking dead, children (Carl) was using guns killing zombies and people. He even killed two kids. He was like a terminator on that show..hell they even showed heads cut off on spikes. Uk laws may be different then compared to Georgia?
@@AryaStarkTheExplorer oh that's just violence, not sex and nudity
impossible to film they say?
“you hear that, little boy” (camera slowly focusses on cheese as he says this before cutting to haelana’s reaction) “your momma wants you dead”
Haelana: “no…”
*sounds offscreen, haelana’s horrified reaction, blood and cheese run away as haelana hurries over to her son outside of the frame and begins to scream as the camera pulls away from the scene and further down the corridor*
seems fairly easy to pull of to me - seems more likely that they removed the Sophie's choice because they removed the second son...because they wanted aemond to be second in line (first with the son killed)...because they wanted him to betray and try to kill argon in episode 4...because they want to tell their version of this story and aren't interested in adapting the book anymore
Or just deal with the fact that they couldn't traumatize the kids in any way, shape or form and just accept it. Laws don't play around regarding children actors. If the kids parents feel like their children were emotionally harmed during filming, they can sue
I don't buy it. There's a million ways they could have done this without having to put some real kids through the wringer. Some clever editing you could film some of the more intense bits without the kids even being there. Or use dolls as body doubles. You can CGI dragons you can't CGI in some kids? The part where Cheese says "your mummy wants you dead" give the kid some earbuds playing Bob The Builder and hide them with the wig. Cast some very short adults and only shoot them from the back in silhouette.
The fumbled the ball on this one and its not the first time.
I just rewatched the episode. It's a fine scene, but we know the potential, which is why we're disappointed. And I don't think that many people are asking for a perfect adaptation (I don't want to see a child be killed or men threatening to r*pe a little girl), but they removed the Sophie's choice. Why only include Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, but not Maelor? Then make Helaena choose and give her the 'kill me instead' line and then have them kill the other boy. They don't even have to include the 'your mother wants you dead' line; the Sophie's choice is horrific enough. I fail to see why they couldn't do that instead; all three children can be asleep. But they had to include Cheese kicking a dog for some reason...
I call bullshit on that. They could do everything that was in the book without the children being on set. It would be very easy to do. It's a cop out. As it stands, we had a good scene that will be forgotten in the next episode whereas HOTD could have had their own Red Wedding, something that would have been talked about forever. Says to me that in 2024 we could never do something akin to the Red Wedding and that's a shame.
It could have been done 10 different ways that could been better. Sorry Ryan is coping, hopefully the rest of his direction ... is good for the season and it wasn't Miguel who did the work last season
Who is this Preston stand in, and why does his accent and speech pattern sound IDENTICAL? Seriously I'd think he was Preston's younger brother or something.
It’s not just that they are children. They are very young children. Not to mention that there isn’t Maegor. Which is a big part of what makes Blood & Cheese so horrible.
the physical violence was enough and i don’t know why ppl saying we were disappointed in b&c= we wanted to see a toddler beheaded on screen & another threatened with rape.
it might sound even more psychopathic, but i wanted to see the gut-wrenching psychological terror of alicent knowing her daughter and grandchildren will enter the room and she can do nothing to stop it (also tells the audience that alicent actually does have a relationship with helaena and her grandchildren if it’s part of their routine).
the sophie’s choice aspect and the chilling “your momma wants you dead” is the typical GoT style that i would have liked to have seen. having the real ‘shock’ of the scene, literally the music builds and climaxes (no pun intended), be when we walk in on alicent and cole really takes away from the true horror of the moment. we already knew those two were together, maybe if they didn’t have the pussy-eating scene before, it would have been more of a shock but it wasn’t. and tbh, it opened up alicent, an already truly hated character to more hate and lack of sympathy and therefore, makes it harder for people to see her as a morally grey character and not just the evil stepmother devil incarnate, the opposite of what grrm intends with his work. olivia cooke is an incredible talent and i would have loved to have seen her do this scene, i just feel it was a real waste, a missed open goal.
i heard condal say in a podcast that the book b&c is green “anti-rhaenyra propaganda”, “the most dramatised version of the events alicent came up with” and that he made the scene so you’re almost kind of “rooting for b&c” which is just … confusing? rhaenyra did NOT ask for it, it was 100% daemon’s creation. i wasn’t a book purist type on really anything else, i like the adapted things but this was just frustrating. b&c could have been done better, without traumatising the child actors if done right, with the right camera angles. but hey, the casual audience thought it was horrifying even if the very, very loud toxic TB stans were more upset with the dog getting kicked than a child brutalised.
It's another death that's adapted in an odd way, so at least they're consistent. I can imagine it being done well making people turn off though, a franchise this successful is built on a broad audience, grimdark murder porn is niche.
I don’t know why people thought this was the Red Wedding of HotD I think the Storming of the Dragon Pit and the Flight to Dragonstone is more comparable to the Red Wedding
I didn't have a problem with Blood & Cheese. Even in GoT we don't see Slynt murdering the baby all the child actors, including Danaerys were aged up. I remember a very early interview with Maisie Williams where she said that she didn't have a clue what S1 was all about and that she wasn't allowed to watch it when it aired.
They could have easily done some clever editing to even avoid the children hearing the lines. It’s not that hard.
The red wedding that should be in house of dragon is either the butchers ball, rhayneras death or aemond killing all the strong household