Gold Experience Requiem isn't actually vague in it's explanation, it states very clearly it nullifies your opponents will and actions before they happen if they were to harm Giorno or GER in any way. That's why most of the time the argument that Giorno is untouchable is actually true. The only things that could help are other types of causality and timeline manipulation abilities. Also the infinite deaths is just a quirk the stand has, it's explained but it's not that related to the main ability.
To put the disagreement with Stan Lee in another way, it's a conflict of Doylist and Watsonian perspective. Stan Lee sees a fight between Spider-Man and The Hulk the way Doyle saw Sherlock Holmes - there is limitless possibility for what can happen in a Sherlock Holmes story, and the trick is whittling away that possibility to make a good one. It wouldn't be a realistic story choice for Sherlock to reveal he has teleportation powers, but from Doyle could have done it if the idea had occurred to him. Power Scalers are deliberately choosing to instead see Spidey V Hulk the way Watson saw Sherlock Holmes. If Watson wanted to guess at the outcome of Sherlock's next case, the best he could do would be to use his knowledge of what Holmes has accomplished so far and try to reasonably extrapolate from there. Which leads me to the far more important question at hand, which is who would win in a fight between Arthur Conan Doyle and John Watson (original canon version)?
As for the last idea, it could go any way, but I would give the edge to Watson since Doyle writes him as younger than he is himself, giving him a slight advantage. I guess.
Thats called a "counter". A counter is when a character has an ability that nullifies or is the weakness of another character. It doesnt mean that they have a stronger power output but it means the opposing character is made to weaken the other. Instead of Rock-Paper-Scissors, lets use the Og Pokemon trio, Charmander, Squirtle and Bulbasaur. A Charmander would have the upper hand against a bulbasaur since Plant is weak to Fire, but would be countered by Squirtle, since Fire is weak to water. Its possible.
Honestly this is one of the best Iceberg videos I've ever seen. Mostly because it's on a topic I'm passionate about but also because you avoided tropes I've criticized other Iceberg videos for. You're very well informed on Power Scaling and the VS Debating community. I'm definitely subscribing and checking out your podcast.
I think at least the existence of stomps in Death Battle is in large part because Death Battle puts quite a lot of importance to theming when selecting their match ups, I think that is why they can get away with making stomps. They're stomps, but it's fun seeing so similar characters clash in amusing ways simply because of the difference of their respective's verses power levels; I think the truly ridiculous stomps (something like Raiden vs Thor, that even the Death Battle people find it a bit pointless) stopped being a thing a while ago. ~~Also Homelander is a bully and the weakest "evil Superman" ever, it's kinda of the perfect candidate to be stomped~~
This is a great video but... could it beat Goku, Saitama or Superman? I think not. All things considered, as long as those three characters exist, this video will always be at most the fourth best thing in existance.
"People just use words without knowing what they mean" Literally every "powerscaler" who says "X scales to Y" when they mean "X's Z-stat is roughly equal to Y's Z-stat"
While you're at it, maybe you should bring up dimensions and how powerscalers need to stop overcomplicating a subject or assuming every work of fiction follows the Many Worlds theory.
@@Nova-rd3hi Most popular fiction uses a multiverse. Dragon Ball, Marvel, DC, Stephen Kings Dark Tower. So yeah, in an infinite multiverse there are a lot of what if matches.
Also reminds me of the term "outerversal". Outerversal is just generally nonsensical. There are like 137 different definitions for it and almost all of them are inconsistent and don't make any sense. Most power scalers don't even have consistent views on what they perceive outerversal to even be which doesn't help its case. Not to mention that it's really just a buzzword lol, people throw the word around without even knowing what it means. This character does this? They're outerversal, this character does that? They're outerversal.
Was the Xeno Goku section and the reality equalization section copyrighted or something? Good video tho I enjoyed listening to terms and concepts I’ve come to be familiar with over the years
1:13:25 - I personally contest the Dreamy Bowser thing because of the context surrounding him. Immediately prior to becoming Dreamy, Bowser tried to straight use the Dream Stone to erase Mario and Luigi from existence with a wish, which was nullified by Peach and Starlow shutting the Dream Stone down and shattering it. So then Bowser ate most to all of the fragments to attain godhood. He did indeed get a tangible boost from eating the broken Dream Stone and demonstrated some feats of creation during his boss fight, but his constructs were barely any better than his usual Koopa Troop goons (being literally just those but in gradient rainbow) and Bowser by all accounts should’ve been trying to delete the Bros. like he was already going to in the first place. But he didn’t, which tells me he physically couldn’t. So he opted for brute force, and lost.
You could also counter that Bowser's ego gets in the way of his goals a lot. Sure, Dreamy Bowser COULD just erase Mario and Luigi from existence, but you could argue something like because of him being so confident in his own power that he would just rather squash the brothers with his own hands to 1 up them after so long. I am not saying your views on Dreamy Bowser's power is wrong, i actually agree with you even as a fan of those games, I'm just giving a hypothetical counter to think of.
@@SiIverLeaf I can see it, especially since this is like the one game where Bowser actually beat the Bros. in a straight fight after all. Then again, him losing to Dreamy Luigi in his own dreams not even an hour prior should’ve brought his ego back down.
I just sat here and watched this entire video, and I must say I loved it . I love the fact you went all in and didn’t do parts . When I comes to Iceberg videos I like to grab dinner or lunch out it on the screen and just watch . Not only that the video was so well made and informative and I love how you tackled certain issues with power scailers, fallacies and all other issues . I agree with everything you said and explained and you just got a new sub , great video
Power Scaling is an interesting hobby. The various claims put out by scalers can be a useful barometer for me. I am a game master for a tabletop superhero game and occasionally need to estimate established characters before bringing them into the game. But in a lot of ways I'm also in the author's seat - similar to the actual comic writers for example - so the characters need to bend to the needs of the game's story and what my player's characters can accomplish. So usually an author's intuition about where powers lie is more useful overall than raw calculations based on what other authors have their characters do.
Last entry just shocked me, because i remembered Shaggy from Scooby Doo. This character never been strong, yeah, sure, he beat couple of punks once and can outsmart monsters by accident, but nothing even remotely extra powerful. But internet turned him into reality bender with infinite amount of power (and even that number not even 1%). What if Shaggy affected our universe and so he can be infinitely strong inside multiverse of all fiction? Just food for thought
If I'm not mistaken part of the reason people even joked that Shaggy was so strong was specially because of that scene where he beat the punks, almost like he was just acting scared all the time.
Love how thbe argument from narrative is the whole underlying power system of medaka box. Najimi can be as strong as she wants but as long as shes a side character or antagonist she can't beat medaka. Freaking silly, and thats why i love it.
Very entertaining video! I'm kinda surprised to not see Digimon referenced anywhere, I feel like that series is constantly brought up in power scaling communities.
in regards to the "Goku vs Superman" example, Superman's role in his own story wasn't Death Battle's direct explanation for why he won the fight, but rather their explanation for why he was written with such incredible power, with that power being the reason for his victory.
I've always been someone who uses raw feats over goofy calcs, because I don't think a writer makes their story while thinking "Okay, this guy can move faster than light" when showing something cool.
@@The_scrongler1978 one of my favorite things is Saint Seiya where people who haven't awakened to the Seventh Sense (Cosmo) can't see FTL attacks, it just looks like the person teleported and they got hit HARD from it in their view
sometimes thats true but not all the time, for exapmle something like the scp wiki uses many mathematical concepts for scalling so calcs in this case would be more important
@@ανσιι-δ6ξ That's still being consistent with what's in-universe though, it's not like saying calcing someone as FTL because of one scene and then they're training to dodge lightning in a later one
SCP-2747 is one i dont see brought up enough when people talk about "strongest characters in fiction", especially when other SCPs get brought up. Obviously not an SCP that would be fun to see fight other characters, its too unreasonably overpowered. But its worth a mention.
Just to note that in 53:11 this is NOT the "ORIGINAL" Kardashev scale. The "original" says that type 4 can use the entire universe energy, 5 can use the entire multiverse energy, 6 is beyond space and time and type 7 is likely omnipotent
I'm kinda sad this didn;t just include the pecking order, which is a literal meme but has some very funny concepts like Song Canon rappers, MacGuyver with a $2000 home depot gift card, and Luigi doing nothing
wow the youtube algorithm recommended me a video that *actually* appeals to me?! is the algorithm feeling ok? do i have to call an ambulance? jokes aside this was fun! i particularly enjoyed your little rant about the misuse of the term "solos". that made me laugh. the bit about Azathoth near the end could use some work but hey at least you didn't say he "dreams reality". gotta start somewhere, baby steps i guess. all in all, great stuff! ps: goku solos 😤
Unless I missed it I'm surprised Cosmology hasn't shown up in this iceberg ngl, this is usually used to show how some verses could win over others(mostly SCP and WOD)
58:50 pretty much sums up all of power scaling in general. Because whether or not you like it, the Stan Lee argument actually has some truth to it. Like if the writers involved in dragon ball suddenly decide to make yamcha pop up and defeat beerus, not even through means of hax but what he's capable of on his own, then he's now a much higher tier character within the scope of dragon ball. So there's definitely some truth to this, which is why I don't really take power scaling too seriously and just watch or partake in debates with friends just for some good fun
Suprised you didnt mention the power of "completely ignoring" or just "not existing". Example: Soft & Wet: Go Beyond S&W:GB has the power to create a bubble that spins so fast it doesnt exist, thus having the power to erase anything, touch the untouchable, ignore shields like Giorno's G.E.R, Gojo's Infinity, or Tooru's Calamity.
knowing this, i would like to suggest garfield as the one and only reality fiction transcendent being, naming him the strongest character in fiction. my scan, supereyepatchwolf's video on how the internet affected garfield, revealing that he actually had a plushie of garfield that he deeply cared for when he was younger without even rememembering its existence
But what about Shaggy? Internet made him infinitely stronger and with practically infinite power (because 1% memes and stuff). Why everyone lose their shit because couple of episodes with obvious toon power or pure luck? What if Shaggy gave as the Idea of him being infinitely powerful in fiction multiverse? Or maybe he always was
Also what about those early 1900s characters who were used as motivation or propaganda for soldiers to fight in wars (like Superman, Bugs Bunny, etc.)? Wouldn't that also count if this was the case? I mean these were cartoon characters which literally shaped the lives of millions in the real world.
If You Want To Count Official Material For Goku We Got GT Goku (100 Years Later) Xeno Goku (Arcade/Manga/Anime) And Also Capsule Corp Goku (Manga/Anime) All Of Them Scale INFINITELLY Higher Than Current Super Goku (Manga/Anime)
@@onekidgamer577 God Fusion-Goku Is Technically Official Since Its Produced By Toei But Fortnite-Goku Is Not Toei's Nor Baindai's Work, So Its Technically Only Extra-Official
48:05 IIRC I saw a scan where Squirrel Girl was talking to Galactus in a non-Squirrel Girl comic, told him how she had beaten Thanos before and Galactus laughed and was like “GOOD, HE IS SUCH A TOOL” 1:01:30 boy likes to drink, what do you want?
45:02 i’m curious what he was going to say with “appeal to motive fallacy.“ he most likely had to scrap it due to pesky copyright. I subscribed! A top-tier video, keep it up!
Also I don’t think he’ll see this so I’ll continue talking in the third person. I love how at the end, he shouted out a channel that had less than 2500 subscribers. I subbed to him too!
I knew about some of this stuff up until later 3, it’s so cool to see my elementary school playground arguments make up a genuine community, amazing video with a very touching ending as well! 💛✨ (Hopefully we see Reality Fiction Transcendence in Chris Chans dimensional merge)
I was not expecting to see SethTheProgrammer as a point on the list. I used to debate with him nearly 10 years ago back on Google+, and it's nuts to think he's still around and making a name for himself (even if it has taken a turn for the worse) He used to be the absolute worst when it came to DBZ.
I've personally never been a big fan of power scaling, but I do see the appeal of it and I do kind of understand it a little I was trying to get into writing, mainly for games and all, and as I was fleshing out the world, the thought came up in my mind as to how people would compare what I wrote. mainly I wrote the characters I had not really to intentionally be powerful, but rather to just be interesting and unique to each character(obviously I think I made some stronger than others but that was bound to happen). the story I had in mind doesn't really focus on strength or skill in a fight, but rather on just straight up survival, where it doesn't matter if the main characters win or kill the opponent, but on just being able to live. in short, what I thought of instead was what if a group of characters would go through roughly the same plot points. I'll just list a few popular groups I thought of, I used the rule that the universes kind-of worked in certain ways but not others (such as stealing an opponents ability, how things would interact, where certain things would affect others, etc.) I'll also mention a few characters I made when it does fit but I won't mention scaling, but I will mention their overall powers and what they are. and lets just say the results are....interesting Justice League: surprisingly not well, since the world has a lot of magic users, Superman would struggle. is he still valuable, yes, is it going to be easy for him, probably not. as for Batman, it depends on how you want to rule him since I kind of view him as having to go back and forth from the Batcave to Gotham over and over. he might have satellites that have his gear, but I wouldn't know. as for the other members, it would depend on how you rule them, green lantern is kinda a magic-tech mix, Wonder woman might either have her powers classified either as magical or Divine (extremely good if latter) and Aquaman might be the same. the Flash would be a pretty good contender actually since he's usually considered a main member, but I feel one antagonist in particular named Baron Lucien, who's main thing is making/using cursed dolls, MIGHT be interesting due to him needing to either 1. know flashes face and due a ritual for 7 days to kill him without anyone knowing, or 2. make a Flash doll himself and get close enough to kill him without him knowing what's going on, besides that and some variables on who's in the team, its not going well Z-Fighters:.....its really not that interesting, at least in terms of fights. as for out in the wilderness, that's debatable, I don't know how smart any of them are out in the woods, but I think a few of the more human fighters would manage. Team-7: fairly ok, being ninja's actually may vary on how good they are early on since despite them being, you know, ninja's, I don't think its shown them being focused on stealth that much, either way, I think they'd do fairly well and have a nice variety of skills with them. I could see people just say "oh, Naruto and sasuke would beat every fight" but again, its not about that, its about being alive, and that they would accomplish very well. some fights would be interesting though, Like Ulrik, who's basically a dead guy revived with cursed armor who can't really die, but can be delayed/subbdued via removing the armor and finding a way to prevent it from getting back on (before anyone asks. No, you cannot break it, unless you somehow manage to break reality, which is possible and literally what 2 forms of power revolve around, but not really possible either way). another good encounter would probably be characters like, again, Baron Lucien, but also characters like Nil (main gimmicks being cryomancy, incredible speed, a sword that withers life around it, and being a parody of a sterotypical edgelord, mainly because I though it would be funny), Arheim (gimmick being he's a shadowspawn, which is a being made of negative emotions), Diavolo( really a basic human, but does lead a huge military and sort of a cheap bastard due to his only real trick being fencing and having a literal gun), etc. overall, pretty fun overall, I don't really know if I should be doing this, but if you guys have any questions or requests, I don't mind talking about it.
13:00 As a Ben 10 power scaler, That video from Ink Tank channel with actually pretty damaging to Ben 10 community and me someone has been part of it for more than 10 years I really now dislike that video. No matter which comment section you go to all you hear is people saying he's a God and no one can defeat him because he exist outside of time, these people have no idea that existing outside of time doesn't mean that you cannot be killed or destroyed especially by characters work infinite dimensions greater than you and and nowadays to spend them simply to the wrong word such as alien X recreated the art style so therefore he is a Outerversal character, which is not true at all That's just "Range" and size of Ben 10 Cosmology is tiny compared to D.C and Marvel Universe.
On the note of game mechanics, can we apply glitches and exploits to a debate should either the game’s publisher acknowledge (or even endorse) them in an official capacity or if the game’s playable character is a fourth-wall breaker who’s proven capable of playing their own game autonomously? I mainly have Sonic the Hedgehog in mind since the Speed Strats series on the official Sonic UA-cam channel does both, occasionally both at the same time (namely Classic Sonic using debug mode to cheese the end of Sonic 2 as Super Sonic). Heck Classic Sonic in Sonic 1 performed the wraparound glitch in Marble Zone Act 1 solely to shitpost about the “you not only cheated the game but yourself” copypasta during Sekiro’s heyday.
Weird thing about Ben & Alien X people ignore is he can just use his other Aliens in tandem with it, hes shown in multiple episodes to be able to have independent aliens "Clone in a car" remeber?. So its always weird they make it a 1v1 and not a Ben 10v1
Seems a bit redundant in the case of Alien X when he can just have a thousands-strong army of Alien X on a whim (as proven when Ben went on trial for illegally rewriting reality) and can do stuff like casually make his enemies beat themselves up just because he can (as per his fight with the Rooters and Plumbers Kids).
Correction, Batman did not craft the bullet that killed Darkseid, he took the round that killed Orion and restored it into a full bullet, I believe Darkseid himself crafted the bullet, Batman just pulled it out of Orion.
1:31:30 B-WHERE, your avatar smacked me in the face with all of those gesticulations during the video. You can consider yourself to have claimed the top of the power scale.
I think when people use the word "solo" in reference to a 1v1 fight it's because one of those characters is really powerful, like they're a raid boss that you would expect many characters would be needed to take down. If you solo a raid boss in an MMO, that would be quite a feat, right? That's a powerful enemy designed to be fought by many players so even though the fight is a 1v1, it's not expected that the player character is able to solo that boss. I don't really think it's unusual to use the word this way. For example someone might say Goku can solo the entire Naruto universe. Someone else might argue that no, Itachi alone could solo Goku. I think both these uses of the word are correct.
How aware is the power scaling community of Ulforce V-dramon (X-Antibody)? Because one of that digimon's abilities is to just win. Like, it's description is to bend the loss of reality to just win, instantly. You can probably do a whole video on Digimon power scaling alone, it gets insane.
Ive been power scaling for years and for some reason im sitting here like oo i hope them explaining the basic concepts of power scaling helps me understand it! Smh
53:47 was waiting for the Xeelee to come into this. They can Solo 99.9% of every other fictional universe/multiverse (I'm pretty sure I'm fairly right in saying that)
I've been powerscaling shit since fucking 2012 and I can say that I think the community has a bad rep for things outsiders looking in don't seem to get. I love it, it's fun to do and trying to quantify what fictional characters do in real world terms is a good way to test your mind or something. I remember I had some wild theories back when I was a teenager, some very old arguments I had on comicvine and moviecodec forums. Were some interesting times indeed. I remember comicvine at one point banned DBZ vs Comics threads of all kinds for awhile. They might even still have that rule.
Commenting before I watch in full, wanted to ask anyone who may see this comment: Classic Metal Sonic vs Persona 3 Aigis, who’d win? Metal Sonic gets his extra equipment (both Eggman tech, and power-ups from Sonic 4 and Superstars’ Battle Mode), limited Badnik help (mainly Hotarus, Eggrobos, and mini Silver Sonics), Dark Rings, Chaos Emeralds, the Master Emerald, and the Phantom Ruby; Aigis has her Itemized Messiah set, full Wild Card privileges (including S.E.E.S.‘s Personas and Velvet Room access), the Sub-Persona system (aka, Zeus and Zeus), and a full inventory.
1:10:53 this literally happens in an scp. The foundation creates a machine that destroys concepts by removing them from the collective unconsciousness of humanity. They use thid on 682 and it attatches itself to a concept hidden in the collective unconcious that deletes anyone that thinks about it.
16:40 - Oh like in Generator Rex where Rex can turn his limbs into various gadgets and weapons on command but noticeably only cycled through each individual weapon quickly rather than juggle multiple. A short ways into Season 3, Rex’s older friend and minder Agent 6 (who recently suffered several years worth of amnesia, so he’s suddenly more outspoken and less mature than at the start of the series) just bluntly asks Rex why he doesn’t try wielding several unique weapons at once (seeing as his legs turn into a hover bike while his arms turn into matching pairs of weaponry). It simply turned out Rex just never thought of it and gets pushed into live firing this idea in an underground motocross race a short while later. Rex then makes liberal use of multiple weapons at once for the rest of the series.
I was wondering when we’d get to Lovecraftian deities. Just surprised it took that long. Also, Jesus Christ, this whole power scaling thing got out of hand really quickly.
1:25:43 "He can petition Spinachia, goddess of Spinach... And no, I didn't just make that last one up, that's real!" Idk man I think I need to see a scan on that one
Lightnovels should be in here. Usually, people bring it up as another source of feats that usually have the MC far more powerful than their canon/manga/anime versions. Again, people should pick and choose whether or not to include them into debates.
I would like a Fate/Grand Order style fic where the fights are cool and loosely move the plot along. "So the ninja reading Adult Romance helped you unlock a Temple Of Journeys after stopping a berserk swordsman that attacks with a katana in his mouth?"
Gold Experience Requiem isn't actually vague in it's explanation, it states very clearly it nullifies your opponents will and actions before they happen if they were to harm Giorno or GER in any way.
That's why most of the time the argument that Giorno is untouchable is actually true. The only things that could help are other types of causality and timeline manipulation abilities.
Also the infinite deaths is just a quirk the stand has, it's explained but it's not that related to the main ability.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for correcting how most people use the term "solos", it has bothered me as well.
I'm honestly surpised how this doesn't have more views, it covers pretty much everything about this topic, well done!
thanks!
@@BWHEREyw
To put the disagreement with Stan Lee in another way, it's a conflict of Doylist and Watsonian perspective. Stan Lee sees a fight between Spider-Man and The Hulk the way Doyle saw Sherlock Holmes - there is limitless possibility for what can happen in a Sherlock Holmes story, and the trick is whittling away that possibility to make a good one. It wouldn't be a realistic story choice for Sherlock to reveal he has teleportation powers, but from Doyle could have done it if the idea had occurred to him. Power Scalers are deliberately choosing to instead see Spidey V Hulk the way Watson saw Sherlock Holmes. If Watson wanted to guess at the outcome of Sherlock's next case, the best he could do would be to use his knowledge of what Holmes has accomplished so far and try to reasonably extrapolate from there.
Which leads me to the far more important question at hand, which is who would win in a fight between Arthur Conan Doyle and John Watson (original canon version)?
As for the last idea, it could go any way, but I would give the edge to Watson since Doyle writes him as younger than he is himself, giving him a slight advantage. I guess.
Man, powerscaling fans are gonna be so confused when they discover rock-paper-scissors
Thats called a "counter". A counter is when a character has an ability that nullifies or is the weakness of another character. It doesnt mean that they have a stronger power output but it means the opposing character is made to weaken the other.
Instead of Rock-Paper-Scissors, lets use the Og Pokemon trio, Charmander, Squirtle and Bulbasaur. A Charmander would have the upper hand against a bulbasaur since Plant is weak to Fire, but would be countered by Squirtle, since Fire is weak to water. Its possible.
@@imgonnatellmom3245this is in jojo as well after part 2.
Rock solos, no diff
@@eroope5713🪨 Nah, i’d win.
hole solo verse nig diff
Honestly this is one of the best Iceberg videos I've ever seen. Mostly because it's on a topic I'm passionate about but also because you avoided tropes I've criticized other Iceberg videos for. You're very well informed on Power Scaling and the VS Debating community. I'm definitely subscribing and checking out your podcast.
I think at least the existence of stomps in Death Battle is in large part because Death Battle puts quite a lot of importance to theming when selecting their match ups, I think that is why they can get away with making stomps.
They're stomps, but it's fun seeing so similar characters clash in amusing ways simply because of the difference of their respective's verses power levels; I think the truly ridiculous stomps (something like Raiden vs Thor, that even the Death Battle people find it a bit pointless) stopped being a thing a while ago.
~~Also Homelander is a bully and the weakest "evil Superman" ever, it's kinda of the perfect candidate to be stomped~~
I'm honestly curious if how Castlevania Dracula would do against Homelander.
@concept5631 you call it a battle, dracula calls it a morning snack.
@@minasthirith6314 Overestimating Homelander is a common affliction it seems.
@@concept5631you call it a battle, Dracula calls it a blood drop.
@@minasthirith6314 I wonder if Homelander's flesh and blood would taste different due to the Compound V.
This is a great video but... could it beat Goku, Saitama or Superman? I think not. All things considered, as long as those three characters exist, this video will always be at most the fourth best thing in existance.
Don't forget, Ben 10 solos all of them. His full name is Benjamin KIRBY Tennyson, and of course he would transform into...
I can name 20 characters who shit on all three at the same time
This is one of the best Iceberg videos I've seen. Thorough and easy to understand brekdown.
"People just use words without knowing what they mean"
Literally every "powerscaler" who says "X scales to Y" when they mean "X's Z-stat is roughly equal to Y's Z-stat"
While you're at it, maybe you should bring up dimensions and how powerscalers need to stop overcomplicating a subject or assuming every work of fiction follows the Many Worlds theory.
@@Nova-rd3hi Most popular fiction uses a multiverse. Dragon Ball, Marvel, DC, Stephen Kings Dark Tower. So yeah, in an infinite multiverse there are a lot of what if matches.
@@Celtic1020 Most fictional verses don't have a multiverse. The few examples are the ones you listed.
@@Nova-rd3hi sonic does as well. Blaze and new classic sonic created through generations.
Also reminds me of the term "outerversal". Outerversal is just generally nonsensical. There are like 137 different definitions for it and almost all of them are inconsistent and don't make any sense. Most power scalers don't even have consistent views on what they perceive outerversal to even be which doesn't help its case. Not to mention that it's really just a buzzword lol, people throw the word around without even knowing what it means. This character does this? They're outerversal, this character does that? They're outerversal.
Has anyone done the math on the power scaling of a "Meme Iceberg" vs the iceberg that, say, sunk the Titanic. A true duel of the ages
Bro I’ve been watching this video and it’s amazing, the editing the script, it’s crazy how it only has 600 views
Appreciate that! If you really like it consider sharing it!
@@BWHERE great idea il post it in some discord servers
5.4k now
Was the Xeno Goku section and the reality equalization section copyrighted or something? Good video tho I enjoyed listening to terms and concepts I’ve come to be familiar with over the years
I am questioning that as well
ngl this was super fun to watch
Thanks fam 🙏
1:13:25 - I personally contest the Dreamy Bowser thing because of the context surrounding him. Immediately prior to becoming Dreamy, Bowser tried to straight use the Dream Stone to erase Mario and Luigi from existence with a wish, which was nullified by Peach and Starlow shutting the Dream Stone down and shattering it. So then Bowser ate most to all of the fragments to attain godhood. He did indeed get a tangible boost from eating the broken Dream Stone and demonstrated some feats of creation during his boss fight, but his constructs were barely any better than his usual Koopa Troop goons (being literally just those but in gradient rainbow) and Bowser by all accounts should’ve been trying to delete the Bros. like he was already going to in the first place. But he didn’t, which tells me he physically couldn’t. So he opted for brute force, and lost.
You could also counter that Bowser's ego gets in the way of his goals a lot. Sure, Dreamy Bowser COULD just erase Mario and Luigi from existence, but you could argue something like because of him being so confident in his own power that he would just rather squash the brothers with his own hands to 1 up them after so long. I am not saying your views on Dreamy Bowser's power is wrong, i actually agree with you even as a fan of those games, I'm just giving a hypothetical counter to think of.
@@SiIverLeaf I can see it, especially since this is like the one game where Bowser actually beat the Bros. in a straight fight after all. Then again, him losing to Dreamy Luigi in his own dreams not even an hour prior should’ve brought his ego back down.
This video is amazing, should have 10-20x the amount of views. Keep it up the good work tho. Watched all the way thru
I just sat here and watched this entire video, and I must say I loved it . I love the fact you went all in and didn’t do parts . When I comes to Iceberg videos I like to grab dinner or lunch out it on the screen and just watch . Not only that the video was so well made and informative and I love how you tackled certain issues with power scailers, fallacies and all other issues . I agree with everything you said and explained and you just got a new sub , great video
Power Scaling is an interesting hobby. The various claims put out by scalers can be a useful barometer for me. I am a game master for a tabletop superhero game and occasionally need to estimate established characters before bringing them into the game. But in a lot of ways I'm also in the author's seat - similar to the actual comic writers for example - so the characters need to bend to the needs of the game's story and what my player's characters can accomplish. So usually an author's intuition about where powers lie is more useful overall than raw calculations based on what other authors have their characters do.
Last entry just shocked me, because i remembered Shaggy from Scooby Doo. This character never been strong, yeah, sure, he beat couple of punks once and can outsmart monsters by accident, but nothing even remotely extra powerful. But internet turned him into reality bender with infinite amount of power (and even that number not even 1%). What if Shaggy affected our universe and so he can be infinitely strong inside multiverse of all fiction? Just food for thought
If I'm not mistaken part of the reason people even joked that Shaggy was so strong was specially because of that scene where he beat the punks, almost like he was just acting scared all the time.
honestly one of my favorite videos i have ever seen it was very informative and made everything very easy to understand
thanks!
Agreed. Good job.
as a wrestling fan i didnt know "jobbing" was used differently in the power scaling community
Probably one of my new favorite videoes, was so fun to learn about a bunch of the specifics and inside jokes
Fantastic video as always
Thanks again!
@@BWHEREpowerscaling is bullshit to the point every single verse you see is outerversal.
Love how thbe argument from narrative is the whole underlying power system of medaka box.
Najimi can be as strong as she wants but as long as shes a side character or antagonist she can't beat medaka. Freaking silly, and thats why i love it.
Very entertaining video! I'm kinda surprised to not see Digimon referenced anywhere, I feel like that series is constantly brought up in power scaling communities.
Power scaling is fun
This is a cool video a lot of stuff I didn't think about and I love all the visual examples you used
I hope you can do an iceberg video about the most powerful characters that you could power scale, I think it would be pretty interesting!
Great video, loved your style and made work more bearable, keep it up friend 🫡
Thank you so much 😁
In my opinion the most common fallacy I come across is the no limits fallacy.
in regards to the "Goku vs Superman" example, Superman's role in his own story wasn't Death Battle's direct explanation for why he won the fight, but rather their explanation for why he was written with such incredible power, with that power being the reason for his victory.
It was also completely wrong since Superman has shown limitations many, many times.
@@BlackJacked care to give a few examples?
@@christopherbravo1813 The Death of Superman.
@@spowden not surprised you went with that. Superman's power comes from the *sun.* his battle with Doomsday happened at *night.* get what I'm saying?
@@christopherbravo1813that’s a fallacy in the comics it has been said that he stores sunlight
I've always been someone who uses raw feats over goofy calcs, because I don't think a writer makes their story while thinking "Okay, this guy can move faster than light" when showing something cool.
Now this is the person we need. We need more people like you
@@The_scrongler1978 one of my favorite things is Saint Seiya where people who haven't awakened to the Seventh Sense (Cosmo) can't see FTL attacks, it just looks like the person teleported and they got hit HARD from it in their view
@@QuantemDeconstructorthat’s actually kinda cool. I like that system
sometimes thats true but not all the time, for exapmle something like the scp wiki uses many mathematical concepts for scalling so calcs in this case would be more important
@@ανσιι-δ6ξ That's still being consistent with what's in-universe though, it's not like saying calcing someone as FTL because of one scene and then they're training to dodge lightning in a later one
SCP-2747 is one i dont see brought up enough when people talk about "strongest characters in fiction", especially when other SCPs get brought up. Obviously not an SCP that would be fun to see fight other characters, its too unreasonably overpowered. But its worth a mention.
scp is fodder
@@Kashimo_Glazer123 Cope
IATIA is stronger
🤡
@@MrNone-d5s nice face reveal
Just to note that in 53:11 this is NOT the "ORIGINAL" Kardashev scale. The "original" says that type 4 can use the entire universe energy, 5 can use the entire multiverse energy, 6 is beyond space and time and type 7 is likely omnipotent
I'm kinda sad this didn;t just include the pecking order, which is a literal meme but has some very funny concepts like Song Canon rappers, MacGuyver with a $2000 home depot gift card, and Luigi doing nothing
I mean the meme goes that Luigi wins by doing nothing so in a pecking order video obviously he wins. But seriously I would like to see that video.
Normal People: There isn't any fictional thing with reality fiction transcendence.
Me, an intellectual:
| ||
|| |_
Oh my god….. he’s right
_ _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ / _ _
Is this Loss
That darn lizard after reversing his DNA to evolve reverse spiral energy
wow the youtube algorithm recommended me a video that *actually* appeals to me?! is the algorithm feeling ok? do i have to call an ambulance?
jokes aside this was fun! i particularly enjoyed your little rant about the misuse of the term "solos". that made me laugh.
the bit about Azathoth near the end could use some work but hey at least you didn't say he "dreams reality". gotta start somewhere, baby steps i guess.
all in all, great stuff!
ps: goku solos 😤
25:00 me whenever I hear someone using "waifu" for "anime girl" interchangeably
I know people who use brain, rot, and cringe interchangeably.
I love the concept of power scaling, but I contend that true power scaling is "whatever the writer wants"
Saying homelander loses to Tanjiro was going too far, dial it back, chill, don’t kill the man sheesh’
What happened to the Xeno Goku and Reality Equalization segments?
Great video guy, I needed it
Glad you liked it!
Unless I missed it I'm surprised Cosmology hasn't shown up in this iceberg ngl, this is usually used to show how some verses could win over others(mostly SCP and WOD)
58:50 pretty much sums up all of power scaling in general. Because whether or not you like it, the Stan Lee argument actually has some truth to it. Like if the writers involved in dragon ball suddenly decide to make yamcha pop up and defeat beerus, not even through means of hax but what he's capable of on his own, then he's now a much higher tier character within the scope of dragon ball. So there's definitely some truth to this, which is why I don't really take power scaling too seriously and just watch or partake in debates with friends just for some good fun
That’s in-universe scaling, people use this quote to de-value cross-verse.
Cool vid dude
Suprised you didnt mention the power of "completely ignoring" or just "not existing".
Example: Soft & Wet: Go Beyond
S&W:GB has the power to create a bubble that spins so fast it doesnt exist, thus having the power to erase anything, touch the untouchable, ignore shields like Giorno's G.E.R, Gojo's Infinity, or Tooru's Calamity.
Thank god someone preach the way on how to use "solo" correctly.
I'm convinced powerscalers are physicist
knowing this, i would like to suggest garfield as the one and only reality fiction transcendent being, naming him the strongest character in fiction. my scan, supereyepatchwolf's video on how the internet affected garfield, revealing that he actually had a plushie of garfield that he deeply cared for when he was younger without even rememembering its existence
But what about Shaggy? Internet made him infinitely stronger and with practically infinite power (because 1% memes and stuff). Why everyone lose their shit because couple of episodes with obvious toon power or pure luck? What if Shaggy gave as the Idea of him being infinitely powerful in fiction multiverse? Or maybe he always was
Also what about those early 1900s characters who were used as motivation or propaganda for soldiers to fight in wars (like Superman, Bugs Bunny, etc.)? Wouldn't that also count if this was the case? I mean these were cartoon characters which literally shaped the lives of millions in the real world.
If You Want To Count Official Material For Goku
We Got GT Goku (100 Years Later)
Xeno Goku (Arcade/Manga/Anime)
And Also Capsule Corp Goku (Manga/Anime)
All Of Them Scale INFINITELLY Higher Than Current Super Goku (Manga/Anime)
REMOVE GT GOKU AND ADD GOD FUSION GOKU AND FORTNITE GOKU
@@onekidgamer577 God Fusion-Goku Is Technically Official Since Its Produced By Toei
But Fortnite-Goku Is Not Toei's Nor Baindai's Work, So Its Technically Only Extra-Official
48:05 IIRC I saw a scan where Squirrel Girl was talking to Galactus in a non-Squirrel Girl comic, told him how she had beaten Thanos before and Galactus laughed and was like “GOOD, HE IS SUCH A TOOL”
1:01:30 boy likes to drink, what do you want?
S-tier video bro
🙏🙏🙏
45:02 i’m curious what he was going to say with “appeal to motive fallacy.“ he most likely had to scrap it due to pesky copyright. I subscribed! A top-tier video, keep it up!
Also I don’t think he’ll see this so I’ll continue talking in the third person. I love how at the end, he shouted out a channel that had less than 2500 subscribers. I subbed to him too!
Also the xeno goku section
This should be posted and every group chat
I knew about some of this stuff up until later 3, it’s so cool to see my elementary school playground arguments make up a genuine community, amazing video with a very touching ending as well! 💛✨
(Hopefully we see Reality Fiction Transcendence in Chris Chans dimensional merge)
Perfect place to learn all the shit I need to scale my own characters. Quite appreciated
Arent ARGs just examples of the last entry, for example bill cypher being a statue in real life after the ending of gravity falls
Nice long video super fun to listen to :)
Glad you enjoyed!
Using the Ninjago clip for "character induced stupidity" is all too true 😂😭😂
I swear, Stan Lee’s quote about “who would win in a fight” has to be among the top 5 misinterpreted quotes not about politics or religion
Fire video 😎👀
Very comprehensive! Great video.
i always thought dark schnieder was an in-joke i wasnt aware of that was basically just a meme that a darker version of dan schnieder beats everyone
Outerversal isn't "Above 11 Dimensions", Outerversal is Above Countably Infinite Dimensions. Complex Multiversal is 5-11D. Hyperversal is 12-Countably Infinite, or Aleph Null
Fax! He need to see this comments
Outerverse is beyond the very concept of dimentionality
@@MrNone-d5s Not on Vsbattle.
Wow, the terminology...
WHOA
Getting more interested
XD
@@MrNone-d5s if you use csap yes
I was not expecting to see SethTheProgrammer as a point on the list. I used to debate with him nearly 10 years ago back on Google+, and it's nuts to think he's still around and making a name for himself (even if it has taken a turn for the worse)
He used to be the absolute worst when it came to DBZ.
Crazy what happened to him….
I've personally never been a big fan of power scaling, but I do see the appeal of it and I do kind of understand it a little
I was trying to get into writing, mainly for games and all, and as I was fleshing out the world, the thought came up in my mind as to how people would compare what I wrote. mainly I wrote the characters I had not really to intentionally be powerful, but rather to just be interesting and unique to each character(obviously I think I made some stronger than others but that was bound to happen). the story I had in mind doesn't really focus on strength or skill in a fight, but rather on just straight up survival, where it doesn't matter if the main characters win or kill the opponent, but on just being able to live. in short, what I thought of instead was what if a group of characters would go through roughly the same plot points.
I'll just list a few popular groups I thought of, I used the rule that the universes kind-of worked in certain ways but not others (such as stealing an opponents ability, how things would interact, where certain things would affect others, etc.) I'll also mention a few characters I made when it does fit but I won't mention scaling, but I will mention their overall powers and what they are. and lets just say the results are....interesting
Justice League: surprisingly not well, since the world has a lot of magic users, Superman would struggle. is he still valuable, yes, is it going to be easy for him, probably not. as for Batman, it depends on how you want to rule him since I kind of view him as having to go back and forth from the Batcave to Gotham over and over. he might have satellites that have his gear, but I wouldn't know. as for the other members, it would depend on how you rule them, green lantern is kinda a magic-tech mix, Wonder woman might either have her powers classified either as magical or Divine (extremely good if latter) and Aquaman might be the same. the Flash would be a pretty good contender actually since he's usually considered a main member, but I feel one antagonist in particular named Baron Lucien, who's main thing is making/using cursed dolls, MIGHT be interesting due to him needing to either 1. know flashes face and due a ritual for 7 days to kill him without anyone knowing, or 2. make a Flash doll himself and get close enough to kill him without him knowing what's going on, besides that and some variables on who's in the team, its not going well
Z-Fighters:.....its really not that interesting, at least in terms of fights. as for out in the wilderness, that's debatable, I don't know how smart any of them are out in the woods, but I think a few of the more human fighters would manage.
Team-7: fairly ok, being ninja's actually may vary on how good they are early on since despite them being, you know, ninja's, I don't think its shown them being focused on stealth that much, either way, I think they'd do fairly well and have a nice variety of skills with them. I could see people just say "oh, Naruto and sasuke would beat every fight" but again, its not about that, its about being alive, and that they would accomplish very well. some fights would be interesting though, Like Ulrik, who's basically a dead guy revived with cursed armor who can't really die, but can be delayed/subbdued via removing the armor and finding a way to prevent it from getting back on (before anyone asks. No, you cannot break it, unless you somehow manage to break reality, which is possible and literally what 2 forms of power revolve around, but not really possible either way). another good encounter would probably be characters like, again, Baron Lucien, but also characters like Nil (main gimmicks being cryomancy, incredible speed, a sword that withers life around it, and being a parody of a sterotypical edgelord, mainly because I though it would be funny), Arheim (gimmick being he's a shadowspawn, which is a being made of negative emotions), Diavolo( really a basic human, but does lead a huge military and sort of a cheap bastard due to his only real trick being fencing and having a literal gun), etc. overall, pretty fun
overall, I don't really know if I should be doing this, but if you guys have any questions or requests, I don't mind talking about it.
Interesting
Link... is actually willing to kill his enemies, and has a sword.
13:00
As a Ben 10 power scaler, That video from Ink Tank channel with actually pretty damaging to Ben 10 community and me someone has been part of it for more than 10 years I really now dislike that video. No matter which comment section you go to all you hear is people saying he's a God and no one can defeat him because he exist outside of time, these people have no idea that existing outside of time doesn't mean that you cannot be killed or destroyed especially by characters work infinite dimensions greater than you and and nowadays to spend them simply to the wrong word such as alien X recreated the art style so therefore he is a Outerversal character, which is not true at all That's just "Range" and size of Ben 10 Cosmology is tiny compared to D.C and Marvel Universe.
Love power scaling (and hate it), but its fun.
On the note of game mechanics, can we apply glitches and exploits to a debate should either the game’s publisher acknowledge (or even endorse) them in an official capacity or if the game’s playable character is a fourth-wall breaker who’s proven capable of playing their own game autonomously? I mainly have Sonic the Hedgehog in mind since the Speed Strats series on the official Sonic UA-cam channel does both, occasionally both at the same time (namely Classic Sonic using debug mode to cheese the end of Sonic 2 as Super Sonic). Heck Classic Sonic in Sonic 1 performed the wraparound glitch in Marble Zone Act 1 solely to shitpost about the “you not only cheated the game but yourself” copypasta during Sekiro’s heyday.
My anthro squirrel lumberjill OC, Ruby Redwood could solo all of ‘em!
Too bad my OC is actually as strong as Ruby Redwood plus infinity
Weird thing about Ben & Alien X people ignore is he can just use his other Aliens in tandem with it, hes shown in multiple episodes to be able to have independent aliens "Clone in a car" remeber?. So its always weird they make it a 1v1 and not a Ben 10v1
Seems a bit redundant in the case of Alien X when he can just have a thousands-strong army of Alien X on a whim (as proven when Ben went on trial for illegally rewriting reality) and can do stuff like casually make his enemies beat themselves up just because he can (as per his fight with the Rooters and Plumbers Kids).
Besides real> fiction transcends, the presence and azathoth, it's pretty good
I'll take it!
It’s all fun and games until someone mentions Adventure Time powerscaling
I think this video will be amazing. After finishing i would Edit this and write it.
Yay i enjoyed it 😊
Correction, Batman did not craft the bullet that killed Darkseid, he took the round that killed Orion and restored it into a full bullet, I believe Darkseid himself crafted the bullet, Batman just pulled it out of Orion.
nice video but i was so sad when you skippet xeno goku xD
Really informative 📝
1:14:32 TierZoo and Casual Geographic
Are my favorite sources of animal facts
What happened with the Xeno Goku and Reality Equalization sections? Other than that great video
1:31:30 B-WHERE, your avatar smacked me in the face with all of those gesticulations during the video. You can consider yourself to have claimed the top of the power scale.
I think when people use the word "solo" in reference to a 1v1 fight it's because one of those characters is really powerful, like they're a raid boss that you would expect many characters would be needed to take down. If you solo a raid boss in an MMO, that would be quite a feat, right? That's a powerful enemy designed to be fought by many players so even though the fight is a 1v1, it's not expected that the player character is able to solo that boss. I don't really think it's unusual to use the word this way.
For example someone might say Goku can solo the entire Naruto universe. Someone else might argue that no, Itachi alone could solo Goku. I think both these uses of the word are correct.
The spanish equivalent of weak homelander is "el snkverso es barrido" or the snkverse is destroyed by literally anyone
Sonic solos everyone in fiction.
All he has to do is just punch everyone into Minecraft problem solved.
How aware is the power scaling community of Ulforce V-dramon (X-Antibody)? Because one of that digimon's abilities is to just win. Like, it's description is to bend the loss of reality to just win, instantly. You can probably do a whole video on Digimon power scaling alone, it gets insane.
Ive been power scaling for years and for some reason im sitting here like oo i hope them explaining the basic concepts of power scaling helps me understand it! Smh
This video would be a million times better if it wasn’t absolutely riddled with ads
Ublock origin is your friend.
I can't believe the iceberg forgot about the absolute most OP character in fiction, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo.
bro whats with the random cuts? wheres xeno goku?
Copyright happened
53:47 was waiting for the Xeelee to come into this. They can Solo 99.9% of every other fictional universe/multiverse (I'm pretty sure I'm fairly right in saying that)
I've been powerscaling shit since fucking 2012 and I can say that I think the community has a bad rep for things outsiders looking in don't seem to get.
I love it, it's fun to do and trying to quantify what fictional characters do in real world terms is a good way to test your mind or something.
I remember I had some wild theories back when I was a teenager, some very old arguments I had on comicvine and moviecodec forums. Were some interesting times indeed.
I remember comicvine at one point banned DBZ vs Comics threads of all kinds for awhile. They might even still have that rule.
Commenting before I watch in full, wanted to ask anyone who may see this comment: Classic Metal Sonic vs Persona 3 Aigis, who’d win?
Metal Sonic gets his extra equipment (both Eggman tech, and power-ups from Sonic 4 and Superstars’ Battle Mode), limited Badnik help (mainly Hotarus, Eggrobos, and mini Silver Sonics), Dark Rings, Chaos Emeralds, the Master Emerald, and the Phantom Ruby; Aigis has her Itemized Messiah set, full Wild Card privileges (including S.E.E.S.‘s Personas and Velvet Room access), the Sub-Persona system (aka, Zeus and Zeus), and a full inventory.
1:10:53 this literally happens in an scp. The foundation creates a machine that destroys concepts by removing them from the collective unconsciousness of humanity. They use thid on 682 and it attatches itself to a concept hidden in the collective unconcious that deletes anyone that thinks about it.
16:40 - Oh like in Generator Rex where Rex can turn his limbs into various gadgets and weapons on command but noticeably only cycled through each individual weapon quickly rather than juggle multiple.
A short ways into Season 3, Rex’s older friend and minder Agent 6 (who recently suffered several years worth of amnesia, so he’s suddenly more outspoken and less mature than at the start of the series) just bluntly asks Rex why he doesn’t try wielding several unique weapons at once (seeing as his legs turn into a hover bike while his arms turn into matching pairs of weaponry). It simply turned out Rex just never thought of it and gets pushed into live firing this idea in an underground motocross race a short while later. Rex then makes liberal use of multiple weapons at once for the rest of the series.
I was wondering when we’d get to Lovecraftian deities. Just surprised it took that long.
Also, Jesus Christ, this whole power scaling thing got out of hand really quickly.
I have never learned more from a video until now
1:25:43 "He can petition Spinachia, goddess of Spinach... And no, I didn't just make that last one up, that's real!" Idk man I think I need to see a scan on that one
I love him acting like common literary terms is exclusive only to power scaling
Lightnovels should be in here. Usually, people bring it up as another source of feats that usually have the MC far more powerful than their canon/manga/anime versions. Again, people should pick and choose whether or not to include them into debates.
good point!
I would like a Fate/Grand Order style fic where the fights are cool and loosely move the plot along.
"So the ninja reading Adult Romance helped you unlock a Temple Of Journeys after stopping a berserk swordsman that attacks with a katana in his mouth?"
What did Jiraiya do this time?
@@TheReZisTLust Kakashi: ...(my ninja skills are working PASSIVELY! Just stay quiet..)
XD