This talk reminds me of the research Rupert Sheldrake cites of people in the “past” being healed by intercessory prayers made for them in the “future.”
Sam! This is my first time commenting on your channel, but I’ve enjoyed you on PVK and more recently your interview with Andrew Perriman! But to the topic at hand. I’m sitting in my backyard trying to get a handle on what Jervis is getting at. I am actually having a tough go of it so I decided to see if anyone on UA-cam had interacted with her work and -behold! Looking forward to listening to tour discussion.
Her work would be fascinating to compare to Jon Levenson''s book modern classic on the conception of Resurrection in Ancient Israel and how it develops. Because he shows how a life of Torah connected to and within the Temple is a life within "lifetime" and away from that is within "death time" but this shift in the Hellenistic period as thinking of death becomes something more individualist and *discrete* from a previously more spectrum understanding of death (which included infertility, loss of children, illness). It undergoes this shift into a more discrete and individual understanding under hellenism and seems to come to a certain peek within Paul
Also seems to be interesting to compare to the Rabbinic concept of how true teshuva (repentance-atonement, metanoia) retroactively makes ones sins as if they either never occurred or even can turn them into merits (which often makes me think of our AA friends who can spread such wisdom due to their experiences with alcohol)
“Time is action, event, and change” reminds me of a great and jarring video I remembering watching of Jonathan and Matthieu discussing time. The gist was “space vs. time.” Associated idea: “static potential for change vs. change” & “earth vs. heaven” & maybe “feminine vs. masculine” They might not’ve mentioned feminine & masculine. Also “vs.” maybe isn’t the best conjucnctuon word, rather their point was that the two were inextricably tied up with one another. They used Aristotle a number of times for credibility of showing it to be the traditional view. The Pageau’s say something, I believe, so I can be a quirkier evangelical… I need a saving roll against their magic Griz… Anyway, thoughts?
I have a modest proposal.... Maybe, just maybe, billions of people over thousands of years have tried to make sense of what Paul says and failed because it doesn't make any sense and never did.
@@faturechiwhy do you assume the Bible is nonsense because people make nonsense of it? That's like saying trees are bad because we print lies on paper, or wipe poop from our butts with it. Maybe it's really old and has been translated and people get confused because they're bringing questions to it that the Bible authors aren't pretending to address. Keep it simple and it makes a LOT more sense.
@@faturechi if you're a Christian, and you follow historical authoritative agreement on scripture, then Paul wrote scripture. If you're not, then that's a separate matter and your bias prevents meaningful dialog here. So far you've simply made baseless accusations and used labels to emote. You haven't actually made a meaningful case anyone can interact with. So unless your goal is trolling, you might need to change your tactics.
I'm not sure it's proper to take an apocalyptic view and thus conclude that because we enjoy a redemptive break from the consequences of the past... therfore tome isn't linear? That doesn't follow. God doesnt contravein our organic experience of time, nor is cause and effect nor entropy overturned... at all. Paul uses normal tenses of time to talk about organic experience in totally non controversial ways. But redemption injects new causes and eliminates old ones... it revolutionizes the slavery we experience to the past, but it doesnt literally erase its existence. We wouldn't be able to talk about it at all if the past was genuinely overwritten, like time travel paradoxes. Her idea of God's experience of time is essentially Boethian, but this is something that must be read onto scripture. It's just not there.
This talk reminds me of the research Rupert Sheldrake cites of people in the “past” being healed by intercessory prayers made for them in the “future.”
Just finished this. I wasn’t able to timestamp comment on it as usual because I was preoccupied but really good stuff.
This was a good one Sam.
Thanks, I had a feeling it would be up your alley
Excellent Thank You. Yes to live in this present evil age but put on Christ and see ourselves and live in Gods kingdom now
My favorite topic!
I know you love Paul
Sam! This is my first time commenting on your channel, but I’ve enjoyed you on PVK and more recently your interview with Andrew Perriman! But to the topic at hand. I’m sitting in my backyard trying to get a handle on what Jervis is getting at. I am actually having a tough go of it so I decided to see if anyone on UA-cam had interacted with her work and -behold! Looking forward to listening to tour discussion.
Small world. Thanks for commenting!
Another brilliant female scholar who is enriching the field with novel and compelling work. I think of B Gaventa, E Schrader, S Glahn and others.
Her work would be fascinating to compare to Jon Levenson''s book modern classic on the conception of Resurrection in Ancient Israel and how it develops. Because he shows how a life of Torah connected to and within the Temple is a life within "lifetime" and away from that is within "death time" but this shift in the Hellenistic period as thinking of death becomes something more individualist and *discrete* from a previously more spectrum understanding of death (which included infertility, loss of children, illness). It undergoes this shift into a more discrete and individual understanding under hellenism and seems to come to a certain peek within Paul
Also seems to be interesting to compare to the Rabbinic concept of how true teshuva (repentance-atonement, metanoia) retroactively makes ones sins as if they either never occurred or even can turn them into merits (which often makes me think of our AA friends who can spread such wisdom due to their experiences with alcohol)
that is a beautiful idea
“Time is action, event, and change” reminds me of a great and jarring video I remembering watching of Jonathan and Matthieu discussing time. The gist was “space vs. time.” Associated idea: “static potential for change vs. change” & “earth vs. heaven” & maybe “feminine vs. masculine”
They might not’ve mentioned feminine & masculine. Also “vs.” maybe isn’t the best conjucnctuon word, rather their point was that the two were inextricably tied up with one another. They used Aristotle a number of times for credibility of showing it to be the traditional view. The Pageau’s say something, I believe, so I can be a quirkier evangelical… I need a saving roll against their magic Griz…
Anyway, thoughts?
What is time? Action event change. It was written to us not for us. Hope does Jesus relate to time?
It seems according to Eph 1:4 we're included in Christs timeline
I have a modest proposal....
Maybe, just maybe, billions of people over thousands of years have tried to make sense of what Paul says and failed because it doesn't make any sense and never did.
I reject your modest proposal. Scripture is supposed to be infinitely deep
@@transfigured3673 Scripture is infinitely DEEP, not infinitely confusing and contradictory.
@@faturechiwhy do you assume the Bible is nonsense because people make nonsense of it? That's like saying trees are bad because we print lies on paper, or wipe poop from our butts with it.
Maybe it's really old and has been translated and people get confused because they're bringing questions to it that the Bible authors aren't pretending to address.
Keep it simple and it makes a LOT more sense.
@@ravissary79 The Bible? No. Paul's blasphemy? Because it is blasphemy.
@@faturechi if you're a Christian, and you follow historical authoritative agreement on scripture, then Paul wrote scripture. If you're not, then that's a separate matter and your bias prevents meaningful dialog here.
So far you've simply made baseless accusations and used labels to emote. You haven't actually made a meaningful case anyone can interact with.
So unless your goal is trolling, you might need to change your tactics.
I'm not sure it's proper to take an apocalyptic view and thus conclude that because we enjoy a redemptive break from the consequences of the past... therfore tome isn't linear?
That doesn't follow.
God doesnt contravein our organic experience of time, nor is cause and effect nor entropy overturned... at all. Paul uses normal tenses of time to talk about organic experience in totally non controversial ways.
But redemption injects new causes and eliminates old ones... it revolutionizes the slavery we experience to the past, but it doesnt literally erase its existence. We wouldn't be able to talk about it at all if the past was genuinely overwritten, like time travel paradoxes.
Her idea of God's experience of time is essentially Boethian, but this is something that must be read onto scripture. It's just not there.