So You Want to Write Epic Fantasy
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
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"I see this as a 30 book series with spin offs and 1,000 characters..."
Always wanted to write epic fantasy, but it took writing a bunch of sci-fi and thriller books to feel like I was anywhere near ready to tackle the challenge. I take my hat off to those authors who can write great fantasy out the gate!
We're looking at you, Rothfuss o.o
@@ChrisFoxWrites Didn't Rothfuss spend like 10 years writing his book? He rewrote his book innumerable times to get everything right. Same thing with Sanderson, he wrote I think 6 complete novels before he published Elantris.
@@epluribus591 Sanderson did it just like many of us in that he finished many novels first, and honed his chops. Rothfuss spent seven years writing the complete trilogy, and so far as I know did write anything first. His Kung Fu is strong.
@@ChrisFoxWrites I think that is the best way to do it (well why I am doing it)
No one knows me but when it finally does come out, you have three meat-laden epic fantasy books to chew through with a complete story. Maybe I subconciously read Rothfuss did this when I was 18 (now that's some time ago now) and that is why I decided (whilst on holiday in Greece) to plot and world build a world consisting of a trio of books within the series. I think it was due to my utter impatience towards other series I like within the genre...although I am a slow reader when I am in a world, I am in the world and like to stay in that world the entire time until the story is over.
Sadly, as many of us have had to learn, sometimes we aren't the best suited for writing what we enjoy reading. I love hard boiled Sci-Fi, but I will never be able to write that science fiction epic of my dreams. Believe me, I've tried. There is great value in experimentation and trying different genres.
Finally! I've been sooo looking forward to you getting to this!
Also, are you me? I also got serious about my first fantasy series when I was 16. The seeds were planted when I played Final Fantasy 7 and they started to grow when I played 8. Then I found David Gemmel (my dad got out of prison and started leaving fantasy novels lying around the house when I was 10yo) and the Broken Sky series a friend lent me, then BOOOOM!!! Well, okay, it was more of a super slow growth. I reckon I'll be able to execute in early 2022. Super excited :)
I suspect we are legion, and that there are new 16 year olds today haha. I think this is going to be an exciting year for both of us, but 2022 is where it will really pick up steam =)
Gemmell's Sipstrasi stones were a superb magic system. Harsh. Very harsh and very much controllable.
Ok, I feel slightly out of place. I didn't read Tamora Pierce until I was in college. I grew up on Redwall and LOTR when I was in grade school and lived on Andrew Lang. It's nice to know so many people love epic fantasy.
@@celindalabrousse9353 It is realistically impossible to have read it all and done much else. Audible helps a lot though, especially if you find the balance between 1.1 and 1.5 speed that's perfect for that narrator to get done quickly, but before they turn into a hyperactive mouse in your ear :D
@@jonevansauthor i put on my headphones when I'm doing housework. People wonder how I read 30+ books a month, and I be like: audio books and house work. Lol
Sounds great. I apprecitate you posting like this. As for me, I'd really love to see how you are using Dan Harmon's story circle to plot your novels these days.
I love the story circle. It changed how I look at noveling.
Thanks for this video on fantasy Chris!!! I’m SO excited for this series as I’m working on my first novel now and going straight into fantasy as it’s what I love to read and write! Learning so much from all your content for writing my fantasy so I can’t wait! And PLEASE put me on your list to be one of the first to buy your epic fantasy!! Can’t wait for it!!! So for LitRPG it’s very common to be written in first person as well rather then 3rd person limited, I’m trying to figure out which viewpoint to tense to do for my LitRPG fantasy. I would love to hear your thoughts on this for us Chris!!! I’m trying to decide and figure it out which to do. Seems you have decided first person for your epic as well.
Which PoV do you enjoy more? That will matter more in the long run I think. I chose first, with 3rd in the interlude chapters. It's an odd style but I polished it over a couple series an like it. One of the advantages of third is that you can expand total PoVs more easily. One of the advantages of 1st is that it's easier for readers to slip into a skin IMO.
If you have no POV preference as a reader or writer or feel equally comfortable with either, I would go with genre trends. Make a list of the authors and titles you love (and while you're at it, may as well record the ASIN and the covers for book cover research and advertising).
Then go through each Look Inside, and work out which ones are in first or 3rd. Then you have data you can mull over. Maybe it's an even split, or maybe there's a clear bias toward one or the other. I've been reading a lot of gamelit but I don't have the type of memory to be confident that it's one or the other - I definitely see both is the most I can tell you.
Also look for polls in relevant facebook groups (Gamelit Society on Facebook) and Reddit for instance - and you may well find enough data to tell you the readers preferences. It's only the most active and engaged readers on those platforms but of course, they are the ones who set the trends anyway.
@@ChrisFoxWrites I feel like 3rd person is more suited to paint the mood of _EPICNESS_ in a story, first person feels more "mundane". Unless you're writing from the POV of a legendary figure or something, like Kvothe. I personally noticed no difference between the relatability of first person and third person POV characters. Assuming the prose is written well of course, prose is easier to write in first person; medium prose written in third person can sometimes feel mechanical, since third-person narration is not the natural way humans think.
@@epluribus591 1st person is easier to write, yet harder to get the scope of the story. It all depends if your story is driven by characters or their world. I think.
It is why I completely re wrote my entire series as it read in a way I didn't like. Also the added on difficulty I put on was "be like Virgil and Homer" mixed with Jordan and Tolkien. So I am writing in a way humans don't write in the first place AND in an ancient style which has been translated into modern languages throughout the centuries...therefore, you get a lot of reading and research days (which turn into months) just to get the mindset to write like them (with my own personal spin on it). I also, split the books like the Bible is, in Pslams. Sort of. So it's excerpts of written "history" in the world that I am building. Just to add another layer....But 125k (with about 100k in world building and 50k odd in "other stories") in, going for it. I think I am nearly there. Trouble is I get distracted a lot. And write more simple storylines just to refresh my brain.
Okay Christ! Having issue learning how to plot a great ending that will actually be good, and carry the tension needed and not be so canned but also unique to the reader or at least just good! Can you do a video talking about plotting a great ending for your first book? I’m a brand new writer working on my first fantasy novel, being honest growing in the craft by watching the UA-cam videos on the craft and practicing what I learn. I’m still in the mining out premise and “plot gardening” phase with your videos but trying to make sure I’m really plotting a great ending point that will be a wonderful way to end book 1 in a fantasy series.
Would love to be on the beta reader list Chris!!! Love Epic Fantasy!
Absolutely! I'll get a signup link next Friday.
@@ChrisFoxWrites YAY! 👏👍😍😃✍️
Hey, Chris. Really appreciate you making these videos. It does a lot to help the author community and your advice and insight is much appreciated. I have to disagree with you though on a couple points of this video. Epic Fantasy doesn't necessarily have to have a well-tailored magic system. Yes, there definitely needs to be consistency and logic. But to have rules and laws that govern a magic system so that one knows exactly how it all works, that is only necessary if you're writing a hard magic system. Lord of the Rings, has no such rules so far as Tolkein has written. Brandon Sanderson is excellent at weaving together plots and characters and making these intricate magic systems that are really cool. But that's his specialty. Soft magic systems don't need that. Granted, you have a lot more novels under your belt than I. I understand that and don't take this stance flippantly. I have taken some days to consider this before responding. I wrote an epic fantasy novel and a short story series and published them where there is no explanation whatsoever of the magic that is used and I have not received one negative comment on the matter. Because my world and my characters were consistent and the magic, soft as it is, is still consistent in its use. As far as worldbuilding, I agree that it is great to take the time to build your world before hand, if you are able to do that. However, I am a pantser, but not for lack of trying to plot. I have tried many ways to plot my novels, including some of your methods and it never works for me. That's not to say they are wrong, but I can't get them to work. I wrote Half-Orc Redemption, the sequel, Kindred, and my short story series Cryos & Jade all off the cuff. I developed the world as I went and I'm still developing it. And people like them. There's never any complaint about the worldbuilding or the magic systems. The key is to keep it consistent with what I have already published. I think that is the crux of the matter, that things need to be consistent and plausible. I don't mean to be contradictory, just to present the other side and I hope this has not come off the wrong way. Again, thanks for the videos keep up the great work. I still need to pick up the Dark Lord Bert and read it. It sounds like a great fun read that I can really relate to.
I absolutely expect (and respect) people who disagree with me on this point. I know there are a lot of them, and I want to be clear my opinion is exactly that...just an opinion. I took a look at your book, and from the description it is a YA Fantasy geared at the 13 - 18 age range. They are a more forgiving group. LitRPG readers are not. They are absolutely savage, and they are a big part of the Epic Fantasy audience.
If you can keep a soft magic system straight in your head great! For many low magic settings that works. For epic fantasy I think you need something more concrete, because your universe itself is the most important character in epic fantasy. It isn't Rand Al'Thor. It's the world. The struggle. The cycle. The One Power. Angreal. Aes Sedai.
In Fred Saberhagen's wonderful series every sword was its own character. They were awesomely powerful, and shaped the world around them. The limits of that magic system defined the series and the struggles each character faced.
Let me ask you this...what are your top five epic fantasy series of all time? How well defined are their magic systems? All five of mine are well defined, and I'd include Lord of the Rings in that as elvish, the rune system, and fading divinity were all very well defined even if none of it made it onto the page.
Can you show me a complete amazing epic without a hard magic system? Probably, but I've yet to see it. Show me a game of thrones that can stick the landing. Because unsurprisingly where that series broke down was when we needed consistency from the magic system. We needed to understand how White Walkers worked, and how dragons influenced magic.
They just sidestepped it instead, because they didn't have answers =/
Hey, Chris! Thanks for the reply. I completely respect your opinion and totally see where you're coming from. I have heard the same about LitRPG readers. My story is not YA, just straight up Epic Fantasy (although one reviewer actually called it LitRPG! LOL!). Perhaps I need to work on the blurb.
Regardless, you have uncovered my fatal flaw, and that is that I was not widely read as a child. I have been attempting to remedy that in recent years. As I said, you have more experience in this than I and I yield to that. I just know that in my own experience in EF, the lack of an intricate magic system has not been an issue, but again, I haven't yet written LitRPG.
Here is what I have read just for reference: A Wizard of Earthsea, The Harper Hall Trilogy by Anne McCaffery, The Tale of Lanen Kaelar trilogy by Elizabeth Kerner, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and more recently Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, and The Way of Kings. My early influences of Harper Hall and Lanen Kaeler and my experiences in video game and pen and paper RPGs is likely where I get my views on Epic Fantasy.
You asked what my top five series were. In my limited read, my top three would be Harper Hall, Lanen Kaelar, and Lord of the Rings (if you count that as a series). I can only give three as while the Brandon Sanderson novels were good, they aren't my favorites, and not because of the magic, but for other reasons. If I had to pick one of his, it would have to be Mistborn as that's the only one I've completed, and I didn't much care for the final book.
Oh. I also read the Inheritance Cycle (which I didn't care for, but had a very defined magic system), Dragons of Autumn Twilight (Dragonlance), and Extinction (War of the Spider Queen). There's probably a few more I'm forgetting, but those are what come to mind.
I like to subtly comment in world that magic didn't come with a rule book and that the 'rules' have generally been defined through trial and error, but there are most likely plenty of errors to still be found.
Chris - once again, i love your transparency. I, too, use scrivener and generally write in a linear fashion. But I love the idea of doing plot segments. Thanks again for sharing sneak peeks into your writing process.
Sure thing! I'll cover it much more granularly next week.
I think it is awesome that K-lytics came out with their Epic fantasy report on the same day this video came out. Maybe you are onto the next hot genre! You make me want to stop my current project and write an epic fantasy along with you! Still a good 200,00 words away from that. I have to finish my MSF first. Thanks for all the encouragement. You asked in your email what I'm going to do to catch up. I'm working on getting to 5000 edited words a day. I have a 3 month plan to get on track and when I get there I'll be able to catch up. You are right, we are succeeding just by trying.
I am not writing Epic Fantasy because it is the next hot genre. Epic fantasy is one of the hardest genres to write, in my opinion, and is a life long passion that I have spent literally decades gearing up for. It's incredibly competitive, and requires long books.
@@ChrisFoxWrites I didn't think you were, honest! I just thought it was a happy coincidence, an alignment of the stars per-say. Sorry that tension is running so high on comments for this video :-( I know that you’ve worked really hard to be here and I’m really excited for you. The fact that there is so much negative energy around terms like hot genre makes me sad. I apologize if any of the negative energy was transmitted because of my words. I just wanted to express how inspired by you I am.
@@celindalabrousse9353 it comes with the territory and I am in now way offended. I am just trying to very strenuously advocate that people NOT see epic fantasy as anything like a hot market, because that's a way to waste a lot of time and effort. It's exacting, and if you read Alex's report it will show that the genre has been trending down for some time =).
Heated discussion is always welcome in these comments. We're authors with large egos and strong opinions haha.
Yay!!!
Hm... I have a flashback in a similar place in my saga... I hadn't considered what you suggest here. As always you have some excellent points! I'll have to consider another way to accomplish what I was trying to there... Looking forward to your future videos, and more of the older ones... -Cheers!
It's amazing how open you are with unfinished writing. With regards to questions on epic fantasy - I've only dipped my toe in. I started with one and then decided to learn on shorter types of novels. What I did find was that moving through time is challenging. How much to show and what to skip. Are there any rules of thumb about time-span or is it entirely plot dependent?
I finished my outline, but I'm going to have another look at the story circle again.
Also, if you need any volunteers for beta readers, I am keen. : ) Also, because the synopsis - what I saw of it - was definitely interesting.
I'll have a signup for beta readers next week, and will send out the first 30k words or so. As for being open with unfinished writing I'm a pulp author. There are only a handful of people who are fast enough to take advantage of the things I show before I get them to market =)
For time in series I haven't seen any hard or fast rule, and believe it fits the plot. I see some series do regular time jumps with success, while I myself tend to avoid them. I think if there's a rule it's to make it easy to understand for the reader...where and when are they? I need to get better at this myself, and the novel will require editing to ensure that I adequately convey those things.
Love seeing stuff from this series and your video on writing, would love to see videos on plotting and story circle usage like you mentioned, maybe something on tying in epic endings and what works vs doesn't for an ending on a book. Like I imagine from the blurb that xal joins the academy around the end of the first book, after being battle born in the meet the goddess section?
Honestly I would not have guessed you are 44! I would have said 24
Would love to see an updated Story Circle video, Chris. The initial video, from my memory, didn't really cover like subplots or how to work in anything external to the character arc into the story. Just finished drafting my fifth novel, a YA thriller, and I've been watching your videos since before the first.
I'll get one up for next week. I've learned a lot more about implementing it, and written Plot Gardening since then =)
@@ChrisFoxWrites Please!
@@ChrisFoxWrites Thanks Chris. Can't wait for the video
Thanks Chris for this video
Great video. However, I disagree epic fantasy has to have Sanderson style magic systems. George RR Martin does not use magic systems. Bestselling UK fantasy author Mark Lawrence has written in his blog about his opposition to magic systems. Also for world building, unfortunately I have read several high-selling self-published fantasy books where the world building was very very thin.
Ah, yes, the bittersweet irony in the realization I spend more time watching videos on how to write, than actually writing.
The fantasy (if you'll pardon the pun): _my thinking I can spend a few moments here or there watching a few of these videos for inspiration and improvement before getting started on my overthrow of the Tyranny of the Blank Page from its frigid ivory throne._
The reality: _my realization these videos have the Potato Chip Effect on me: _having one, always leads to having another, and another, and another. All the while, never getting to the truth of the matter. That truth, of course, being the only way to get better at writing, is by doing precisely that; by writing._
The only way to write--be it fantasy, or otherwise--is to write. The only way to write better is to write more. The only way to write even better than that, is to write less. That last part will only make sense to editors, and those who've honed their revision skills down to both a science, as well as an art. Sprinkle in a ton of reading and you've got yourself the only forumula that will ever solve this equation of that time honored alchemy which transmutes squiggly lines on a page into people, places, things and events. Lead into gold, indeed.
Best wishes!
Belated happy birthday!
Happy Birthday!
I appreciate this video, Chris, and also the opportunity to ask you questions here in the comments. I do have one.
I find your concept (dead gods whose bodies still have the energy/magic) so intriguing. I envy and admire people who can come up with concepts.
How do you brainstorm (if you do) these ideas and then decide on the one you want to go with?
Thanks again, and have a blessed week!
I did a series called How to Plot a Novel from Scratch, and we came up with The Dark Lord Bert together. You can see me go from a vague concept to a complete novel, and there was a lot of brainstorming involved.
The short answer is asking a lot of what ifs. What if Hitler had won? What if an asteroid impacted off the coast wherever you live? What if you woke up tomorrow with superpowers? What if you woke up and everyone was gone?
Ask fun questions. Dream up fun people who aren't you. What if you were a famous actor? A spy? A god? Now in a world where your pretend-self existed who would oppose you? Keep dreaming, and start writing it down =D
@@ChrisFoxWrites Thanks for taking the time to answer. I'll look for your How to Plot a Novel from Scratch series! :)
Sir, do you use Scrivener or World Anvil for your writing?
I'm afraid I don't agree that you need a well-worked (hard) magic system. Tolkien didn't have one, GRR Martin doesn't have one, RE Howard didn't have one...
I would go so far as to say that a hard magic system is a distraction to good story telling, or at least it has great potential to be so.
Tolkien wasn't releasing into a crowded market place where Sanderson and Rothfuss already exist. All my advice will come from what I think it takes to make an enduring series that is also commercially successful. That last part is key.
It's also just my opinions =)
@@ChrisFoxWrites eeeeeh? You think every successful fantasy today has an in depth magic system? That's incorrect and reductive. No one wanted The Goblin Prince to have an in depth magic system. While it's trendy right now to have one, it's is by no means a requirement for people to take your story seriously.
I would add to what Chris has said that no-one has come close to the level of worldbuilding that Tolkien did. His magic is deliberately vague and *not* central to the solution of the story. When your main character relies on it, as many fantasy books do, it's very different.
The Hobbits however, are well detailed, as are geography, denizens, history and language.
In addition, we have access to resources that didn't exist in the 1920s and 30s. You don't have to have a hard magic system but you do have to have an internally consistent one. That's best achieved by worldbuilding it properly.
If your character is Conan, you need to understand what magic in his world does. He's not using it, but do magic swords exist and what do they do? Does he face magic users and what can they actually do to him, and what does he think or know they can?
If I were giving advice to someone writing fantasy it would be to make your worldbuilding extensive, detailed and plausible. I would be giving them advice for right now, not what has worked for a few people in the past. A carpenter could make a five leg stool but there's a reason why 3 legs is better and 4 legs are problematic but your office chair has five wheels.
Advice to a wide audience in a field, needs to follow the solutions that will most likely work for everyone. Plotting beats pantsing, hard magic beats soft, don't kill a dog, pick the right POV for the genre and get a genre appropriate cover. Don't cross the streams. Stuff like that.
To me, it's never about teaching the edge cases. You can't replicate luck and you can't go back and be one of the first in a field after the fact either. :)
I don't think Chris Fox said a hard magic system is needed, only that your magic system need to be well designed if you're going the route of hard magic. You could go soft magic.
A mediocre hard magic system is a detriment to the story, a well designed one would be a major plus.
@Kitty Hamilton I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all. I said that Epic Fantasy needs a well defined magic system. What makes it onto the page is ultimately up to you as the author, but if you don't understand how your magic system works, then yes...your series is weaker for it.
Are there exceptions? Sure. There always will be. But this comes back to understanding your audience. There are several different types of readers who will binge Epic Fantasy. Most have another favorite genre, and today the largest / most lucrative of those that does not involve romance is litRPG and GameLit. They have radically different expectations from humorous fantasy readers, or gaslamp, or stempunk.
These people grew up reading Dragonlance, and Battletech, and Shadowrun in addition to all the classics. They love Star Wars, and and Avatar the Last Air Bender. What makes these settings iconic is their attention to detail, and the fact that their conceit is perfectly layered into the setting. Suspension of disbelief is everything to these people.
If you aren't seeking that segment of the market, then you don't need to worry about it. There are plenty of readers out there. But the CURRENT epic fantasy market shares a huge overlap with GameLIT. I think ignoring that will limit audience size, but I'd still build the way I do even if it did not.
Lord of the Rings might not appear to have an in depth magic system, but no one did the level of worldbuilding Tolkien did. No one. Even the fading of magic among various races was accounted for, and the series was written at the waning end of magical power, which is why it is used so sparingly. The age of men is lesser.
My own series the Dark Lord Bert has a nebulous hand-wavy system, and I paid for that in reviews. Not every audience member cares about magic systems. Those who do not will lose interest if you have page upon page of exposition (which you shouldn't do). But the people who do care about systems? They'll bail the moment they realize you don't have one. And if you're writing your magic system with a light touch the people who don't care won't feel burdened. See the Wheel of Time.
Every author reading this should write how they want. As for me? I've defined a robust and adaptive system, because I wanted to understand how all the physics in my universe work. I've already seen the payoffs for that level of detail with The Magitech Chronicles.
I would love to be a beta reader.
First