WARNING! Hidden RV Safety Risk You Need to Know (Grand Design RV Frame Failure)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Anyone interested in an update?
Since this interview Greg has since removed all videos from his UA-cam channel that documented issues with his RV and the Grand Design technician. Simultaneously, Greg shows up with a brand new Grand Design Solitude. This speaks volumes to the persuasiveness of Grand Design to keep this issue under wraps.
We are witnessing the collapse of a once respected company.
Collapse of LIPPERT they are just as culpable as GD.
@@jimlarkin1400 True. But customers should not have to wait while the children squabble. GD sold it. The own it. They can deal with Lippert later.
Lippert makes the frames their welders are the biggest problem @@astrodb4487
I agree. I had a GD solitude for a few years and sold it. Now I’m in the process of getting another but this time I’m going with Brinkley. They are new enough to have a reputation to maintain so they are still putting out quality campers.
@@astrodb4487And Grand Design continues to accept these subpar frames so initially, it is on Grand Design!
Luckily it didn’t wipe out the landing gear and legs or just drop to the ground I’ve been a commercial driver for 41 years and have seen quite a few trailers damaged great video I hope things get worked out with grand design
I had a new 2019 GD Reflection in 2018. A year later, the kitchen slide out floor edge trim scraped a hole on the main floor laminate. When I took it in for repair, I was told they used 1/2" in lieu of 3/4" because they our out of the spec floor board. This caused the floor edge trim to scrape a hole on the main floor. GD covered it and did a patch job. 6 months later, the patch job delaminated. When I contacted GD, they refused to cover it because it was past the warrantied period.
It’s amazing how people can be bought so easily. Throw a little money at them and they’ll do anything. Absolutely no integrity in people these days. Thanks Tom for trying to help people with this issue though.
Very sad to see Greg took down his videos…..Surprised this one is still up. And then bought another GD! WOW hope it works out!
How can anyone with an engineering degree think that Lag bolts into wood will create any support for the front portion of the pin box sounds like hillbilly construction, and the welds on these frames are garbage not just GD all of them show bad welds.
Excellent video. A video that’s getting actual answers on this subject. Thank you. And I agree with Greg about the Harley-Davidson experience. 👍🏼😎
Thanks for highlighting this issue. I have a 2019 Keystone Montana. The side wall by the front slide bulged out such that I could slide my fingers under the forward side of the bottom of the slide seal when closed.
Thankfully, working with a local General RV dealer in Michigan and Keystone Customer Service over several months, Keystone approved repairs. Keystone insisted on detailed steel frame inspections and measurements (which they paid for) to zero in on this specific type of frame failure. Kudos to them!
When the side wall was opened up, the vertical aluminum frame tubing forward of the slide only had a single spot weld on this high stress area tying it to the main horizontal inner wall frame member! That had broken and the bottom of the vertical frame member had shifted out 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. This is near the expansion joint.
A complete weld bead was made between the vertical and horizontal frame members and gusset added on either side. The wall is now flat (again) and slide closes perfectly. Mine was one of 4 fifth wheels of various brands being worked on to resolve the same problem the week they worked on it! All roads lead to Lippert!
Isn’t the vertical aluminum frame wall built by the Coach manufacturer? Lippert builds the steel “base” frame of the structure.
@MikeyMK-ct7jr My understanding is the manufacturer contracts the aluminum frame walls to Lippert.
Great video Tom, We has well are experiencing frame issues with our 2022 397 th Momentum. I myself had removed the Filon to inspect area because of pinbox movement and found bent gussets pinbox, multiple broken welds, backed out and missing lag bolts that weren’t even installed. Sent multiple pictures and documentation to GD .We have and open case with GD. Wish us luck
Thanks for sharing, let us know how the repairs go.
In BTBRV's trip to Lippert, they mentioned how leaving those bolts out would affect the 'super structure' of the RV. It seems to me that GD didn't do their due diligence by not adding bolts to make the 'super structure' complete. I'm starting to feel Lippert is less to blame here than GD. I know people are complaining about Lippert welds, but not seeing them personally, I won't comment on that.
Unless we see a pattern of bad welds on the frames. I'm tending to come to the conclusion that GD under-designed the trailer structure and then failed to complete the construction needed to provide the rigidity the combined frame and body structures required.' Did Lippert build the frames to the provided specs?
Expecting an RV body to provide more than the strength needed to keep it together AND add strength over and above the frame is (IMHO) is almost fanciful. Personally it's been around 50 years since I took my Statics course, but I would have included a strut or gusset running from the inner end of the top frame diagonally back down to the main frame. Push up on the pin box and the frame is going to want to pivot around the joints where the vertical members running up from the front end of the bottom main frame to where they join the upper frame members. That will transfer the loads and minimize the tendency to flex there. Flex = Fatigue = Failure. Unfortunately putting those preventative members there blocks access to the space that they put the pass throughs in.
Look at railroad truss bridges. They are almost all built as a complex mesh of triangles. Look at a 12 pack box, when it's empty and the ends are freed up it collapses. add diagonals between opposite edges and it's harder to collapse.
Agreed, like trusses on a house.
Great video!!! 1. I am a recent Grand Design second owner (reflection 367BHS). As such, I have been keeping a close eye on any/all "frame flex" videos. However, I have, as would be expected, focussed solely on Grand Design related videos. With this in mind, have you seen this level of complaints about frame flex issues coming from other RV manufacturers? The reason I ask is Lippert appears to have a lion's share of the market when it comes to supplying the frame the RVs are built on. 2. As an engineer (mechanical) it is refreshing to hear more technical details coming from Mr. Carson. He hit on some very key issues of which both Grand Design and Lippert equally own a large share of. First issue is not having lag screws in key areas where they are needed. Massive oversight and signs of no quality control for Grand Design. Potential poor choice of materials (aluminum box beam stuffed with wood acting as a structural member). Bad welds is a huge deal for any fabricator (Lippert). And I have seen areas in the frame illustrated by others where gusset support plating has bent due to being under designed. In my industry (offshore oilfield) we say you have to make a product "oilfield tough". Looking at these frames, they don't appear to be anywhere near to being able to own that type of a phrase/mantra. I have seen an example of a Lippert frame and it simply "looked" underdesigned for the application. 3. You mentioned when will be the time that this issue will be put to bed? Unfortunately, I truly believe it will require implementing government regulation of the RV industry before this issue is truly resolved. Industry standards created, third party certifying bodies required to certify each unique design as compared against the standards, implementation of random audits, etc. So folks truly need to follow Mr. Carson's advise and if they have experienced a frame flex issue, they need to report it to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). 4. Last, and this is near and dear to my heart: ETHICS In university we took a pause and the dean of engineering required all engineering students to take a look at ETHICS in a little 1-hour credit course required to graduate. We were given a variety of ethics related events to study and then write a report on. I chose the Ford Pinto issue (If you rear ended a Pinto the gas tank could rupture and catch fire). Ford knew about it however their "bean counters" took the stance that it was cheaper to settle those few court cases that came up as compared to implementing a massive recall of the cars to properly fix them. UNETHICAL behavior. I feel like both Grand Design and Lippert are falling into this category to try and avoid the massive costs of implementing recalls. I see it as failing to address two primary issues: a. A design that does not come close to meeting the loading conditions these RVs are exposed to. b. Poor Workmanship. When these two issues happen together you will start to see the number of failures out there that are occurring.
We looked at Grand Design before settling on a Riverstone and could not be happier with the quality and service from the manufacturer even now 3 years later. The SC dealership we ordered it from sent their driver to Elkhart to pick it up. We had an independent inspection and all issues were addressed before signing the paperwork . That was a plus on both sides because ours was ordered per our choice of add ons/changes so if we had backed out perhaps the next customer would not have wanted our choices and the dealership would have been stuck hoping for someone who might want it. This problem with Grand Design makes me thankful we made the decision we did vs being potentially stuck with an unsafe 5th wheel
I've never been able to get past the constant lauding praises about Grand Design costumer service since the first year they were in business? I never believed in that lie! Now we're getting to the truth!
Thanks for sharing this with us, Tom. 1) GD needs better quality control! No rig should leave the factory without being thoroughly inspected. I also believe the RV industry needs rules and regulations for this exact reason!
2) Better customer support and not be quick to blame the customer. Take ownership of the problem. Screw the warranty, just take care of the issue!
If your jacking up a trailer with the rear jacks up and your intention is to lift the front jacks off the ground with 2 - 2x4’s why on earth would you do this with your wife doing laundry inside the trailer?
The goal is to leave the front landing gear down and only jack it up enough to get the jacks maybe 1" off the ground. The technician knew she was inside and said not to worry.
Thank you, Greg and Tom for this informative video. Grand design has no choice now but to listen because of people like you who are getting the word out. I hope you have reached out to the UA-camrs “Paving New Paths”, Kevin and Alicia. They started getting the word out months ago and boy do they have a story to tell. I hope you reach out to them. I will pray that everything works out in your favor.🙏
Look for other campers that are having problem. I think because industry went to the light weight trailers caused light frames. Plus the roads are horrible
R-Pods are a prime example. Certain models are/were collapsing on their frames. Forest River has extended more frame members all the way out to the edges of the body. Other models were bending their axles in numbers more than attributable than just overloading by owners, although that was the primary cause. They built too many features in and left in reality an insufficient amount of payload. One initial "fix" was to tell owners to travel with empty tanks.
They also had to add a lot more guidance on Weight Distribution Hitches. A lot of owners with the assistance of dealers put WDH that were designed for use on much heavier trailers, unnecessary WDH leading to a lot of frame failures. It's my understanding that FR is recommending that WDH be avoided in many situations.
You are so right about the fact that Grand Designs lack of response about failing frames is effecting their reputation in the RV industry. We were seriously looking at the Solitude and Momentum models to upgrade to from our GD travel trailer. We are NO LONGER considering any thing from GD. The quality and poor warranty experiences we had with our current GD product has also contributed to our decision to boycott Grand Design for any future purchase(s).
Can you please share Greg's channel? The link in the description is not correct. Very interesting video! Thank you.
cruzinwiththecarsons
Oops, here it is ua-cam.com/channels/BQn3sVFEbeQCozkOS3AiWw.html
Thank you! @@CruizinWithTheCarsons
Thank you! @@EnjoyTheJourneyLife
These frame failures seem to be coming the last few years. So I don't think it's just the owners doing something wrong. I think there's more to it than that. Like maybe inferior Steel or just the manufacturer not building it right👍🇺🇲
Caught me off guard with a mid-week video. My week now just got better.
There’s a lot of second owners that bought their rig only 6 months old !
I’m sorry that happened to him, but he made a bad business decision. Having grand design have bought their unit back and maybe paid him a little cash, when he could have 100x the amount with an attorney. That company needs to go bye-bye for what they are doing And him signing an NDA regarding the deal he made is shady and makes him as bad as grand design. He is now part of the problem.. absolutely. Zero respect for the sellout.
Air bags don't enhance weight capacity..they help with rear end sag and help LEVEL UP the towing vehicle witch helps stability. Transoms are on the back of a boat...transits and laser levels are what most of us in construction would use to measure degrees off level center . I'm also wondering how even if that campers jacks would have buckled how that would have been life threatening for his wife ? Your problem is NOT Lipert, It is in your case Grand Design. Look I agree I would be livid as well with that poor workmanship, but don't be a California lawyer and try and drag the plumbers into a framers problem!!!!!!!!!!!! coming from a General Contractor!!!!!!!! Go after Grand Design..don't take that camper back..They will try and fight you on it , but make them take it back, or trade for a new one on a even trade...Like I said , I would be livid , but this is NOT liperts problem...they delivered a clean ENGINEERED frame according to Grand Designs specs, What GD did to affect the frame is on them.(missing fasteners) They are a RV scumbag manufacture as are all of them!! On that size of a Fifth wheel the best thing would be a 3rd axel!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you serious here? Are you not reading people's comments about the many bad welds on these frames? By the way, what if she would have hit her head in the right place? I'll give you time to think about that.
I’m surprised you put this guy on your channel.
Lololol
Go look at a Spacecraft Trailers. Report this to the DOT, they cam make a recall come to life!!!
That has been like pulling teeth at this point. #NHTSA Pete West
At this point they should they should issue a recall check 2018
To 2024 , or till they made the changes !
Those 2x4 were never going to hold the RV up. Why not use the trcuk
IT’s failure. Not flex!
It seems an owner is only a beloved member of the Grand Design family for the amount of time it takes to the company to cash the check. After that, what family?
Tow Vehicle Air Bags: I don’t understand why having air bags on your tow vehicle would compromise the structural integrity of the RV.
If anything it would level the RV with a level tow vehicle, thus helping your RV’s suspension by equalizing weight on the axles.
Someone please explain, using engineering terms, why vehicle air bags is bad for the RV.
It’s not. They used that as a scapegoat excuse to deflect responsibility. I haul livestock. Air bags stabilize and give more of a smooth ride and help mitigate damage over time on rough roads. People who haul sensitive electronic equipment use airbags. Every rig that hauled a space shuttle back to Florida had them.
It's sad the hoops that had to be jumped through! I would never buy a over priced piece of junk (Grand Design) Pretty on the outside. Garbage holding it together. What a shame!!
It would be totally in Grand Designs advantage to buy this RV back at the original purchase price + tax. CASH.
Alot of people with frames breaking at hitch is due to lifting trucks with hitch and after market gooseneek neck connections. i literally seen someone trying to auto level with camper hooked up to hitch. i have also seen a gentleman block the drivers tire side of a momentum to pre level camper before leveling when he disconnected the tougue on hitch was so hi it twisted hitch pin.
please these guys are not doing that don't defend the Corporate GREED cheaping out on these trailers.
@@jimlarkin1400
There our many ignorant people out there as well.
yeah I am well aware of that but all of these poeple with the issue are not @@burnedagain6187
Grand Design is finished and rightfully so.
I will never buy a fifth wheel. 😔
What Friday the 13th is this guy talking about? Sept. Dec. ?
this video was done a couple days ago they picked it up todayLOL not sure why Friday 13th may be joking around.
I thought the same thing the 13 is not a Friday!😮
As of March 13, 2024 Greg Carson's UA-cam Channel is no more. Message pops up the page is no longer available.
The link was wrong, here is the correct one to Greg's channel: ua-cam.com/channels/BQn3sVFEbeQCozkOS3AiWw.html
Thank you!
@@EnjoyTheJourneyLife
Grand Design never made a good product I saw it in the beginning
the term RV Recreational Vehicle not stationary Building to park somewhere and never move. time for the NTSB to crack down on them and make it right and get safety std imposed.
Got any connections there? We could use all the help we can get. Pete
A used grand design is now low bucks 100k rig is at best worth 20 k. Never buy a used grand design!
Here’s what happened to grand design quality…. Two words :
Winny
Bago
Dude was gonna keep the camper from toppling?
He's lucky he didn't get squished like a bug.
please include LIPPERT in the conversation they are just as Culpable as GD and other RV manufacturers
Are they a Boeing subsidiary?
Funny, and so sad!
Dammit!! I came here to put this remark down!! I’m 😞 sad
I wish everyone would stop saying “frame flex”, it’s not. It’s FRAME FAILURE! Bad welds, missing fasteners, etc, the NTSB needs to go after these manufacturers and hold them accountable for the crap that they are putting out on the road. Someone is going to get killed one of these days!
Bad welds are a Lippert problem. Factory finishing and then Incoming inspection should have caught those. Pin Box support might be a Lippert problem. But It seems to me that everything done after the frame is delivered is a trailer maker problem. If they didn't fasten it on correctly. If they didn't spec it accurately to Lippert and Lippert built it to their specs, not Lippert. Did Lippert include specs on what kind of hitch systems, limitations on truck suspension systems could be used, did GD pass them on to the dealers, did dealers pass them on to their customers? The overall hitch system needs to accept pivoting in 3 degrees (roll, pitch and yaw) and transfer the slam up or down not captured by the truck as it hits potholes, etc.
Got that right pay top dollar , receive bottom dollar quality.
Great video and interview! Isnt this exactly what Lippert mentioned was happening? No doubt there might be some Frame issues with quality of welds and such, but failure to install the Lag screws/bolts properly and use additional other methods of securement such as construction adhesive can cause the detachment that was mentioned in the videos. Hate my interview or love it, the main goal was to get information. And I think what he's telling us completely corroborates what's being said. Some manufacturers go an additional step of actually using huck bolts and lock nuts. I truly believe there needs to be innovation here to replace this practice and put in either a bolt plate or some other fastening method in addition to a chemical adhesion.
Most of what you are saying here is spot on about the securing of the walls but you quickly jumped over to put blame on Grand Design without really saying a thing about Lippert's part in this with bad welds, that I thought were done with robotics but apparently not programmed to make sure these bad welds don't happen. Now, I do think Grand Design is also to blame for accepting these trailer frames but Lippert is still the manufacturer of these frames also. They are both accountable for this so let's just be very clear about this! -Pete
It will also add Grand Design's missing bolts/lag bolts and their failure in using 3/8" bolts in 1/2" frame holes and not having something like huck bolts as you say. Their engineers or maybe even executives for doing this should b fired for cutting corners.
Let me clarify the video you missed. After the beams leave their processing facility (where they are robotically welded) they go to another facility (one of several Lippert has) that has 600+ welders assembling and welding frames. All welders (according to them) go through welding certification. That said, it's hard to get 2 extremely talented welders to agree on each other's work, let alone trying to find and keep over 600 welders in Elkhart Indiana. I believe any company producing over 1000 complex welded products each day needs to have a really strong inspection process. That said, it would be naive to think that a few bad apples, poorly trained personelle, lazy employees, or just absent minded inspectors don't let things get past them. This is where they need to step up and ensure there is an amazing customer service program AND that when the frames get to the RV manufacturers, they get noticed and sent back when sloppy work is found.
We had our frame fixed but our cabinets are still shreaded. They left staples everywhere. Our roof attachment of front cap looks like a child sealed it.
Take it back and say its yours until this is rectified.
You can't expect them to build it right, people only pay $100,000 for it. /sarc.👍🇺🇲
I was buying a Grand Design. I had an appointment to purchase one (not a fifth wheel) but this made me pick something else. Not because what I was buying was a camper that was included in this frame failure, but because of how they were handling what is happening. I no longer feel the desire to own one because I don't have faith in the company and how they would handle an issue if I had one.
I was looking at buying a Momentum 398M but after the way they have handled this I will stick with my forest River XLR Boost.
I live within 60 miles of where Grand Designs are manufactured. Last July they laid off over 150 workers. Seem to be in decline.
If the norm is there those left are doing many jobs instead of one good job and performance drops and quality. I am afraid someone’s gonna die and then it will be too late and GD will have already declared bankruptcy.
My question is how many of those 150 employees that got laid off could have been transferred over to the customer service factory where they could do the warranty repairs of rigs that they originally built? Seems like a concept, huh?
Well after seeing this, l will spend my money else where. Especially with what they are asking for these coaches.
The steel was infected with bad metal ! Why is there a problem now 2019 threw 2021 2022
Ty down straps and winch rope are 4 times stronger than their rating these frames should be the same
Grand design is like the lowest class of human s on the planet!
So much for Quality Control
Why the heck did he raise the jacks that high???
I would request a new frame with the ability to see the welds and material used to build it.
I'm not sure that this would be possible as there is insulation under the frames as well as tank heat pads.
Not so grand design 😮
It shouldn’t matter what pin box is on the rv, air bags in the truck is an upgrade in towing, a gooseneck pin box is an upgrade, they cause no extra leverage or the ministry of transport would not let them be manufactured into new builds, horse trailers and car haulers have had them on them for years .I had been looking at a momentum for our full time living. Not sure now as we have no sticks and bricks to fall back on. We pull a 2013 Ti 32 Heartland Bighorn and have put over 90,000 km on it all across Canada with no issue . Waiting to see if second owners get repaired…
When was this interview? Last Friday the 13th was in October 2023. Next one is Sept 2024 because of Leap year. Is this interview 6 month old?
The frame needs to be able to cart the camper the camper has lifeless to no structure you need to look at the welds and are the 5:28 welds completed are just glorified tack welds if they had to put there frame’s threw a DOT inspection would they pass
I personally would respect that there was a flaw and they fixed it and would say yes they had a problem but they fixed it!
Did you retake the measurements after installing the additional lag bolts?
32:47 Too much inaccurate description here. LAG SCREWS are not BOLTS. Please stick to LAG SCREWS.
Yes, good bolts with adequate washers and lock nuts would be the proper securement.
Of course LAG SCREWS, with dynamic loading, are just going to wear down the wood inside the aluminum tube will deteriorate to failure.
Great video overall! Thank you 🙏
Thanks for your post. I did a bit of research and found this.
“If you’re new to DIY projects, the difference between a lag screw and a lag bolt might not be immediately apparent. But it’s essential to understand the differences to choose the best type of fastener for your project. Here’s what you need to know about every kind of fastener and when they should be used.
What is a Lag Screw?
A lag screw is designed to be driven into wood with a wrench or socket. It has threads on its entire shank length, and it usually has flat ends (although some have pointed ends). It can also have hexagonal or square heads. Lag screws are used to secure heavy objects such as decks and posts into the wood, and they are often used in place of nails or bolts because they provide greater strength.
What is a Lag Bolt?
A lag bolt is designed to be driven into wood with a wrench or socket but has fewer threads than a lag screw. The lines stop at the head of the bolt, so there is no threading along its entire length. A lag bolt typically has a hexagonal head, although some have square heads. These bolts are usually used for heavier applications such as securing large beams into place or attaching posts to foundations. They can also be used for lighter applications like securing cabinets or hanging items on walls.
Difference Between Lag Screw and Lag Bolt
A lag screw is a type of screw that is used to attach two pieces of wood together.
A lag bolt is a type of bolt that is used to attach two pieces of wood together.
Lag screws are typically longer than lag bolts.
Lag screws are typically used in applications where the joint will be subject to shearing forces, such as in a door hinge.
Lag bolts are typically used in applications where the joint will be subject to tension forces, such as in a deck railing.
Lag screws are typically driven into place with a wrench, while lag bolts are typically driven into place with a socket wrench.
Lag screws are typically removed by unscrewing them with a wrench, while lag bolts are typically removed by unbolting them with a socket wrench.
Lag screws and bolts are fasteners that attach two pieces of wood together.
Conclusion:
Lag screws and bolts are valuable tools for any DIYer looking to construct something that requires more than just nails or screws. Knowing which is best suited for your project will ensure your construction is solid and secure. For most applications, either type of fastener will do the job-but if you’re dealing with heavier loads, you should opt for the lag bolt instead of the lag screw. Keep these tips in mind when selecting your fasteners!”
@@bradmiller3557 The Lippert engineer in Big Truck's interview used the term lag bolt. So, did the design spec call for lag bolts and GD used lag screws? Of course, given the lightweight aluminum tube in the wall, not sure how much of a difference a bolt vs a screw would have made.
@@kmbbmj5857 Thanks for that reply. Nomenclature and use are often unknowingly intermixed. The design engineers damn well should know the difference, right.
You have to blame camping world I’m sure they took the parts off and put it on a camper that they were fixing or trying to sell