How Did Sauron Get His Ring from Numenor Back to Mordor but Not Off His Dead Hand?
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2022
- In a letter, Tolkien says that Sauron had his Ring in Numenor, which seems to contradict The Silmarillion. But if he did, how did he get it back to Middle-earth when Numenor was drowned and his body destroyed? And if he didn’t need a body to carry it, how was Isildur able to claim it from his corpse after the War of the Last Alliance?
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Honestly I'm most prone to thinking that it's just a matter of prose, and "taking up" the ring simply means to use it's power once again, ie for the first time since the sinking of Numenor.
He had it with him, his spirit bore it away as he had it in his possession and the ring exists in the wraith-world so he could probably still manipulate it (not to mention it being his anchor point to the mortal realm already), and then he collected his power and started using it again in Mordor
As I mention in the video though, he was already using the Ring in Numenor so in what sense is he “taking it up” that he wasn’t before?
@@TolkienLorePodcast taking it up in that he hasn't been able to use it properly since the sinking of Numenor until he could regroup his power in Mordor. He had the Ring, but he couldn't do much besides use it as a focus point to create a new physical form
So you think the phrase is referring to the period between Numenor and his taking physical form again?
@@TolkienLorePodcast yeah, because of the destruction of his body in Numenor he can't really do much that effects the physical realm until he could regather at least some of his strength, much like he did at the fortress in mirkwood or later on in Barad Dur. But since he still had the Ring in his possession he could use it to accelerate the process and get back to his plans much faster, rather than it taking most of the 3rd age without it. So taking up the ring again would be referring to when he can actually use the Ring for purposes beyond his own.... Would the word be reanimation?
Huh, I hadn’t considered that interpretation but it would certainly resolve the apparent contradiction.
The Ring was obviously found by a squid, which it then drove into the shallows; next a seagull, whom it possessed utterly. And so forth unto Mordor.
the Watcher!!
@@nosaurian Worthy of a Marvel-style "no prize".
Seagulls, the morally weakest of birds.
@@Jim-Mc Seagulls, who above all things desire chips.
I could be wrong, but I always instinctively interpreted that Sauron left the Ring in Middle-earth during this period.
But I only read the letters many years after I had read The Silmarillion for the first time, so that's why I can't imagine Sauron with the Ring in Númenor or actually needing to use the Ring powers to corrupt the people there.
Same here - I had the impression that when he actually came to Númenor, it was in spirit and image only (which for even the greatest of Men - would seem like he was physically present, yes?) That in itself answers any 'carrying the ring around' and 'how did it get back across the sea' bits. He can 'still' be in Middle-Earth and using his Ring - and have an image of himself in front of Humans in Númenor, I would think. (At least while he welded the Ring)
Wouldn't this also make sense, and play into how certain Elves of 'high caliber' no matter his fair image - distrusted him? (They sensed his false/evil presence instead?)
Another hypothesis might be that while Sauron lost his fair form the first time he 'died', he may have lost a lot of his ability to manipulate physical objects when he 'died' the second time.
Honestly I'm inclined to attribute this one to a discrepancy between Tolkien's opinion in his letters versus the notes Chris had access to, but in-universe I would point to Sauron's tendency to lose potency with each disembodiment. I know there's notes on the effect of disembodied Ainur on 'material' reality in NoMe, but I don't have the reference in front of me... 😅
Either way, a great video on a very astute observation!
I find Tolkien's explanation in his letter unsatisfactory.
@@TheDanEdwards
He might have been a little tipsy when he wrote the letter.🍸🍷🍹🥃
Actually, that was my question. It made my day to see Josh answer it so quickly. The problem is that we have only one account of the ring story straight from Tolkien's mouth and it is the version I hate. Fëar interacting with the physical world means that Balrogs' fëar should be able to pick up a knife, sword, or spear and kill someone with it. The way Tolkien made it sound "obviously" possible is mind-boggling to me.😞
@@Enerdhil Tolkien presumably didn't drink, no?
@@Enerdhil I think one of the points that Josh is making in one of the versions is that the Ring can be considered as not particularly a standard physical object as it a) belongs to both worlds and b) has a major part of Sauron's power in it, thus probably can be considered as transportable in spiritual form if it wasn't taken from Sauron before he turns spirit?
A weak argument, yes, but still.
I believe that when Sauron died in Numenor, and still having the ring on his person, he went to the shadow realm with the ring and was able to travel back to Mordor. I think this is the case because when other people wear it, except Bombadil, they go to the shadow realm and for this to happen the ring itself must have a connection to that place. However, when Sauron was defeated and subsequently killed in Mordor he lost the ring because it was separated from his person. If he were to die from Gil Galad or Elendil he would have kept the ring.
It’s interesting that this traveling through the shadow realm is a unique ability for Sauron and I wholly believe that it is an Innate ability of his. I say this because he was able to do so when he was fighting Huan as a Werewolf in the Silmirillion and abandoned that form forever while retreating to Melkor. Since he has this ability already he gave the ring to same ability, allowing others to do the same and himself not needing the ring for such travel.
Sorry for the long rant 😂
I think you underestimate the power of the One Ring a little. 🙂 Its primary purpose may have been to dominate the Elves via the Rings of Power, but it was also helpful with dominating other people that didn't have any rings. Sure, Sauron was able to manipulate and dominate the wills of others all by himself, but remember on which scale he was operating on! His empire in the East and South of Middle-earth grew larger day by day. The One Ring wasn't needed for Sauron to do that in principle, but it increased his ability to do so - or anyone's ability to do so, that's why so many people thought having the Ring was a good idea. Like Boromir, who thought the Ring would give him the "power of command". Even Sauron was uncomfortable with the idea of a leader like Aragorn using the One Ring, and Legolas also thought Aragorn would become "great and terrible a Lord" with the One Ring. Otherwise, using the Ring against Sauron wouldn't have helped much, because what else besides the Nazgûl do you get out of that if the One Ring was ~only~ useful for the control of people with the Rings of Power?
Tolkien in his letter 131 talks about Sauron's reasons for creating the One Ring and mentions both motives: "This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants."
As for the idea of Sauron taking up the Ring again - I think it could be interpreted like this: Sauron brought back the Ring from Númenór and the Ring was in his possession, but without an actual shape Sauron could not use it. The text says that "he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape" so I take this as Sauron needed to wait until his shape was finished, and only then he could continue with what he had done previously while he still had a shape. It could be compared to Aragorn carrying a broken sword around - it's with him and in his possession, but he can't use it (only difference is that Aragorn had to get the sword fixed, not himself, and for Sauron it was the other way round).
I've always been amused by the idea that Sauron had the ring in Numenor and it was literally blown back to Mordor afterwards, envisioning a montage of traveling Elves. Dwarves, and Men, startled at the sight of the One Ring flying past them as they move on down the road.
Oops I agree as well that it might be a textual inconsistency as a result of the unfinished nature of the Silmarillion. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I'm glad you covered this it's been a subject I've puzzled over the last few years
From my reading, I always assumed Sauron left the Ring in Middle Earth.
Finally asking dem real questions, well done!!!
Clearly when all his armor got unequipped when his avatar game-overed, the ring was returned to his inventory
I think there are indeed some different ways to look at the question. However, I don’t feel it is that much of a discrepancy. Let’s first say that Tolkien’s writing style is one where the turn of phrase, “took up the one ring again,” would absolutely mean “began again to use it in earnest once more!” Meaning that having somewhat failed in some of his machinations in Numenor he went back to his original concerns. By failed I am only speaking of the fact that he miscalculated mightily the fact that Eru would DIRECTLY intervene and destroy the island. This was Sauron’s failure of foresight born of his own massive confidence in his ability to perceive what might be the consequences of his actions. This was probably a result of totally buying into the idea that Eru would never never again do something so drastic after the War Of Wrath. I always saw the reason he couldn’t just spirit away the ring a second time as being due to the fact that being torn from physical form is always a massive traumatic experience for these immortal beings and they lose some of their potency each time it happens. Remember both Dark Lords also lost some of their essential selves by placing a vast amount of their power into objects, albeit on a much vaster scale in the case of Melkor. I also do believe that because of his trauma and diminishment after he had his bodily form killed a second time he would ABSOLUTELY not be able to take the ring from Isildur. Not physically anyway. It is a fun question to discuss but not, I think, a very hard one to square off.
Hey thanks for the shout out. :) I frankly like the explanation of the ring either being in Isildur's hand or pouch as the reason Sauron can't grip it as a spirit, but even more I do prefer the option of the ring never being taken to Numenor and thus this whole question never arising.
I would suggest, though, had Sauron the ring in Numenor, that he would have had ring-provided power to dominate the non-ring-bearing King's Men as the shadow falls more over them/darkness grows within them. Ultimately that darkness is the corruption of Arda that is Morgoth's power and will, so just as with the orcs this provides a lever to control them. They'd gone as far as human sacrifice to Morgoth, that's pretty tainted. I'd say we can assume some of the Easterlings and Haradrim were dominated in this way, ie they became more susceptible to the one ring's direct influence after they fell more into evil ways.
Was wondering if you could answer an unrelated question: I have a memory of reading a snippet about Olorin that tells us that he had an affinity for fire, that is, long before Gandalf ever had Narya. But I can't seem to find this reference anywhere, does it ring a bell to you?
Another thing I was musing on a little was could third-age Sauron still shapeshift into other unpleasant forms, like Wolf-Sauron? There is that letter that tells us that even separated from the ring his power is not diminished (which I don't like but apparently that was the Prof's word on it).
I don’t recall a reference to Olorin being connected with fire, just that he was always in the business of uplifting and inspiring.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I did find something interesting--not Olorin having an affinity for fire ( I still think I read that somewhere, but who knows maybe I had a very vivid dream, because I have searched EVERYTHING and as you say nada)--but words from the Prof that to me strongly suggest that Narya grants literal powers of fire, not simply the kindling of spirits. From Letter 301, a letter to Donald Swann: "Fireworks have no special relation to me. They appear in the books (and would have done even if I disliked them) because they are pan of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being fireworks."
As general evidence though--nothing specific--we do know that the Great Rings amplify what you already have, so it does make sense that Olorin always was connected in some way to fire.
Man that is some obsolete usage there, I mean the word "pan," here being used not as a prefix but as a standalone meaning ‘all, wholly, entirely, altogether, by all, of all’. Looks like it's an adverb here.
@@Vandervecken I mean the battle at Weathertop between him and the Nazgul was described as bright flashes of light and there was scorch marks everywhere when the hobbits arrived.
I think it's pretty clear the Elven rings had both direct and indirect powers.
Healing, hope, and persistence, but also literally wind, fire, and water powers.
Since Sauron was a Maia, and since the Maiar aren't bound to their physical forms in quite the same way as Men and Elves, I would posit that minor-level telekinesis would be well within his abilities.
I imagine all it would take for the ring to wash up onshore would be a favorable tide caused by a favorable wind (a dark wind). That and/or the ring could have been found by soon-to-be-drowned Numenoreans who found the ring and were driven to swim towards Middle-earth with it, or maybe some sailors found it. I get the impression it would have been a patient, maybe frustratingly slow process for Sauron. Whereas I don't think a dark wind alone would be enough to carry the ring away on land, especially with strong warriors there to just grab it
I’m guessing it had to do with the Ring looking up at the light like a boat in Numenor, rather than looking down into the darkness like it did when Isildur cut it from Sauron.
This is all pretty clearly explained in rings of power, I don’t get what the confusion is all about 🤷♂️
It may be because of some sort of laws for magical items in middle earth, where as long as he had the ring it was his, either because it was still on his person when he died or because he left it in Mordor, the seat of his power, and so he could use it and/or move it at will, but when Isildur took it it became Isuldur's and so was no longer under Sauron's power.
maybe the ring can contact with spirits or because a part of the ring held a part of his essence he could attach it to his wind form. Or maybe he just floated the ring to safety on a bit of floating wood.
The Silmarillion seems to suggest that Sauron left his Ring at home during his "captivity" in Numenor and thus the, "He took up once again the great Ring and clothed himself in power..." makes sense. Even if Sauron took the One Ring to Numenor, the passage still makes sense if Tolkien is referring to the time when Sauron is disembodied and has no finger on which to wear the Ring. I do find it interesting that his "Dark Spirit' can carry stuff. The Witch King has cool stuff that I'm sure he would like to keep. Can he grab his flaming sword after getting trampled by the water cavalry on his way back to the ghost corral? Or, is Sauron special because of his Ainur status and his connection to the One Ring.
I suppose it makes sense that Sauron took the Ring with him to Numenor. I have always assumed the One Ring has an advanced version of the personal power enhancement of the other Great Rings. I assume this is how Frodo acquires the insight and the aura of command that seem to grow on him the longer he possesses the Ring. Admittedly, using the One Ring to dominate the Numenoreans would be like using a bazooka to kill a stray dog by time he arrives, but I don't see Sauron leaving the One Ring in a box in Mordor with a note that says, 'DO NOT TOUCH, MINE!' -- MARION THE GREAT. I wonder, what is the carrying capacity of a naked Maiar? Does originally being a Maiar of the Vala of the matter of Arda give Sauron's spirit an advantage in hauling capacity? Super nerdy good times. Great video!
The 'dark spirit can carry stuff' you may find interesting, while I personally think that it is lame and forced writing on part of the author 😅
The ring isn't a personal power enhancement of the other great rings. The ring literally contains a portion of Sauron's essence. The abilities gained from the ring are essentially powers that Sauron has naturally as a Maiar.
Very good question and good discussion.
Great take!
I always read this as if his spirit was entirely spent, when defeated by the Last Alliance. So for example, even if he still had his shapeshifting power at the time, he couldn't take a new form. Whereas in Numenor's sinking, his spirit's strength was at it's height. It's like when you're so tired, you can even yawn. So when someone cuts your finger, you don't have any power left to grab your ring from him. "Give that back mate!".
So overall I am with you in thinking Isildur had the final blow: an already "dead tired" Sauron was so tired, that he couldn't carry his ring with him as a spirit, because at this point, it was at it's weakest.
That was my thought as well. Also, during the downfall of Numenor, he might have had enough time for his spirit to abandon his physical body and escape with the Ring, whereas when Isilduir killed him, his spirit didn't escape and was severely injured, which is why it took millennia for him to start "waking up" and exerting his power again (as opposed to his minions like Angmar acting in his absence).
@@erickpoorbaugh6728 Indeed, I also like the thought that Sauron had a few seconds to "get a hold of himself and step out of his shock" when Numenor was destroyed.
Although when Isildur cut the ring off Sauron, both Sauron's incarnated body and his spirit were spent.
Sauron: You can have my ring when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
Isildur: Challenge accepted.
He left it in Baradur when He went to Numenor.When His Sprit
Arose from the Abyss and Returned to Mordor.He took It Up Again But Had Lost Forever the Ability to Seem Fair.And Ruled There after with Terror.
I don’t see a contradiction in what Tolkien wrote. The reference to Sauron taking up the ring again is in the context of Tolkien describing Sauron taking on his new physical form. So, the way I understood it is that Sauron carried the ring with his spirit after the downfall of Numenor, and then resumed wielding its power “again” once he took on his new physical form.
Additionally, I agree with your assessment of Sauron’s death & Isildur’s taking of the ring, although I would take it a step further when it comes to lordship. Because even though Sauron’s body was destroyed at the fall of Numenor, he still retained his lordship over the ring. This was not the case, however, when Isildur swiped the ring from his hand to claim it as his weregild. One could even theorize that Isildur claiming lordship over the ring in this way (rather than just intending to destroy it) was necessary to make it possible for it to ever be destroyed. An interesting idea to think about
When I watched this video, I got an ad for a jeweler selling wedding rings. "One Ring to rule them all" indeed.
Good explanations
It seems to me that Sauron couldn’t use the ring in his spirit form, even if he was able to transport it. It wasn’t until he was able to take physical form in Mirkwood that he was able to wear the ring and actually start using it’s power once again. This is the way I interpret “taking it up again.”
Interesting question I have never thought of, thanks.
I'm a fan of the explanation that Sauron's spirit couldn't carry off the ring again simply because isildur was there. AFAIK, no one else who was on Numenor at that time survived
Eh I don't know, i mean as far as I know it's been established that the Ring itself has some manipulative powers like changing size or shape to slip off peoples fingers or drawing attention to itself its not unreasonable to think that something else happened/ given the whole premise is that Numenor sunk one could surmise that Sauron found a way to make sure the ring either landed on some floating debris to be picked up by some passing ship that 'accidentally' found it, or it survived due to it surfing a tidal wave, which admittedly is a bizarre image. Or if you want to go 'High Magic' on the problems ass - Sauron committed a kind of bodily Seppuku to create a tidal wave that would launch the ring in the correct direction.
I would suspect it is a combination of being weaker after his 2nd "death" than after his 1st and also not being able to seize the ring away from Isildur once the latter had possession of it. Although that raises the question of why Sauron's spirit didn't stick around to try and seize it later. Did Isildur never let it out of his possession long enough for that to happen? Or was Sauron concerned something else might happen to him if he stuck around?
I also suddenly find myself wondering, if Sauron can use the One Ring from a considerable distance, why was it safe for the elves to use their three? I feel like I'm missing something here but can't put my finger on it.
Sauron can't use the Ring from a distance.
@@TolkienLorePodcast A Disembodied Sauron has limits obviously it seems
He can't put his finger on it either
@@TolkienLorePodcast That's what I thought however at the 4:10 mark you use the phrase "it uses some action at a distance anyway." This is where I'm getting confused.
I meant the fact that Sauron using the Ring affects the other rings at a distance.
Is it possible that the fall of Numenor and the destruction of his physical body weakened Sauron for a time? His disembodied spirit - I picture it as a dark cloud of malice and willpower - might have been able to drag the ring to Mordor, but not really able to wield it. We also don’t know if this took him hours, weeks or years. Only back at Mount Doom, where the ring and Sauron himself are at their strongest, is he able to make a new body. It is in this body that he ”takes up the ring” and starts using it.
Just a thought.
Once Sauron created the Ring, he seems to have become enormously possessive of it. I doubt he would have voluntarily left it behind when he went to Numenor. Even if he didn't need its powers, he wouldn't have felt comfortable being any distance from it.
You are correct: 1) if you did a chronological survey of all the references then Tolkien's evolving complexity re the One ring would be revealed; and 2) when Sauron's hand was cut off he lost the ring, as this occurred before he and the ring had entered the spirit realm. One Humenor this did not happen as he transformed and took it with him, just as Frodo and Tom Bombadil did when they wore it.
10:00 While its main purpose was to ensnare the other ring bearers I have always felt that it does in fact assist in the domination of non ring bearing individuals. But not to the same degree.
I always thought it amplified all of Sauron's abilities beyond their natural limits. So the ring makes him more powerful, more intimidating, and more persuasive.
I prefer the banal explanation for this issue: that this - as you mentioned - is an actual contradiction and the result of unfinished work.
I think Sauron got gradually weaker throughout the second and third ages; towards the beginning of the second age, as a shapeshifter, he was able to destroy Eregion and very nearly conquer all of Middle Earth, before corrupting the Numenoreans and causing their destruction. Then after Numenor's fall, he was robbed of his shape-shifting powers. (Something similar to this also happened to Morgoth after his theft of the Silmarils and the slaying of the Two Trees of Valinor ages prior).
The violent seizure of the Ring by Isildur weakened him still further, to the point where it took nearly 3000 years for him to recover enough strength to make a comeback. So I don't think his spirit was potent enough any longer, when the Ring was taken from him, to duplicate the recovery of it that he executed in pure spirit form after the events in Numenor.
First off, I think the first interpretation is correct: Sauron had the ring the whole time, but used it in secret in Numenor to influence them towards evil (it would help even if he didn't need it), then upon his return to Mordor, he "took it up" in the same way that Frodo had the ring in his possession, and even used it, but him "claiming it" at Mount Doom was seen as something completely different.
Since Sauron never lost it, and it was his from the beginning, the proper phrasing wouldn't be "claiming" or "reclaiming," so Tolkien writes that he "took it up"
(Either that or it's an edit/change in how he viewed it later in life.)
Secondly, for how he carried it back: he was essentially a wraith. The Nazgul actually have no physical bodies either, yet they wear robes, use weapons, and ride beasts. So Sauron for sure would have been able to carry a ring back with him as a wraith.
And explaining why he didn't just pick up the ring immediately after getting it chopped off: Sauron "dies" 3 times under different circumstances, and different things happen each time, so it's a bit difficult to say for certain how it all works.
The simplest explanation is that the mere existence of the ring allows him to become a wraith instead of fully dying. His orignal body dies in Numenor, but as a wraith he maintains a lot of his power since he still possesses the ring. He then flies to Mordor where he "takes up the ring" and uses it to will a new body into existence. Isildur cutting off the ring causes this new body to "die," and he is even weaker than before because the ring has been taken from him. He then becomes "the Necromancer" and spends centuries figuring out how to craft a new body/resurrect his old body without the power of the ring, as well as plotting his new takeover. Since the ring is still out there, it still ties his spirit to Arda and at this point would allow him to keep dying, turning into a wraith, and then resurrecting himself forever, even if he doesn't have the ring. When the ring is destroyed though, he cannot become a wraith anymore. He is then crushed to death by Barad-dûr collapsing (or he just immediately dies) and his spirit is whisked away by the wind.
Well if the ring wraiths can handle it I'm sure he could. Sauron would be a powerful enough spirit to effect the material world, like a poltergeist times 100
In case of author contradictions, I always favour the interpretation that actually makes sense !! If we Occam's Razor this, it makes way more sense for him to have left the ring in Mordor when he surrendered to Al-Pharazon. So the whole rings of power grift he had planned didn't exactly work out how he wanted but it did tell him one important thing, he could corrupt the hearts of Men more easily than the other races. Armed with this knowledge he makes war on Eregion to draw out the Numenorians & then "surrenders" to them so that he can be taken back to Numenor where he can corrupt Al-Pharazon to (ultimately) remove Numenor from the military equation. He may even have intended for his physical body to be destroyed & for the ring back in Mordor to act as sort of beacon for his spirit to return to.
Speaking of that rings of power grift, it strikes me as not just of questionable value in outcome, but as dopey as hell in conception, if Sauron knew that simply touching the minds of the wearers of the 3 would cause them to take the rings off. That is, if when he put on the One he would then had immediate control of the minds of the wearers of the 3, great, terrific plan. But if just touching their minds alerts them and they still have time to act, then this was pure dumbassery. Of course they'd take the rings off!
Sauron already knew he could corrupt the hearts of men as he had a lot of experience doing so with men living in southern and eastern Middle-Earth. The original targets of the Rings of Power were all elves as Sauron believed them to be much less corruptible.
Maybe there is some amazing story of how he recovered it, and it involved the passing of different hands to get to him and all the lore that it promises.
Theory: Sauron left the Ring in Middle Earth, however since he still had the body he had when creating the ring, his connection to the ring was far stronger, therefore he was able to use the Rings power. After his body was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor, he fled back to Middle Earth and had to create a new body for himself, which was not connected to the Ring as strongly, therefore he had to actually wear it to use its power. So, Sauron was never able to take the ring and "carry it off" while reduced to a spirit, however while still having a body, he was able to use its power at will.
I think whilst he owns the ring he can access it wherever he is. So that his body is destroyed, need not necessarily damage the ring. When it is taken from him by the last alliance. He no longer possessed it and had no access to its powers. But I agree as wellm
If with each reincarnation he lost power he had not reincarnated himself when his body was destroyed in numenor. His drowned body Could be intact and directly connected to his ring unlike when against his will the ring was dismembered from his body. Still I have to ask why didn't he reanimate his body that drowned in numenor? That would lead Credence to the idea that the ring was still in Middle Earth. If the ring resist the effect of time it seems that sauron's power still should have been at its peak when he was wearing the ring. Dismembered by a sword of Westernese from his body his being incarnated maybe the rules change. Losing a finger with the ring on it is more than a symbolic separation perhaps.
It was "sat down" for this
Thanks, Josh! This is a good topic to tackle and is definitely a confusing one. Do we know if Maiar could move physical items when disembodied?...
Maiar by nature don't have bodies, but have the ability to affect the material world by taking on a form. Sauron is a bit of an exception because he became in some ways tied to a material body, and the same could be said of the Wizards and Melkor, though in different ways.
Your question is the one that started on this quest to find the answer to this question. Josh did a great job of addressing the question from various angles, but that question is the reason why it is an issue to me. Fëar are spirit form. Hroar are physical forms. They have clear definitions, powers and limitations. If Tolkien is willing to say that Sauron's spirit can interact physically with the things in Arda, then Balrog spirits should be able to pick up knives and slice the throats of Elves and Men. Yet he clearly said it in a letter, so poltergeists exist in Middle Earth 🙄
I think Sauron left the ring in Mordor and gave himself up to the Numinor. It makes more sense that Sauron wouldn't want to risk losing The Ring of Power to the Numinorean. He would still have a lot of power in influencing the king and the people to his will by making them jealous of the elves and Valinor and wanting immortality. You have to remember, he was a prisoner for hundreds of years and worked his way into the Nyminorean' s hearts and to get them where he wanted them. He knew that having the ring would be to big of a risk to get it stolen or lost or destroyed. At least if it was in a safe place, nobody would get to it.
As far as Sauron having the ring as a spirit. I have a hard time believing he would be able to carry the ring back to Mordor as a spirit. The Ring Wraiths are wearing crowns and jewelry (in the movies) but they look ghostly and you can't really see rings on their fingers. In the Return of the King and the Fellowship of the Ring you see the dark riders wear metal gloves on their hands even Sauron had metal armored hands and was wearing the ring. Sauron was wearing the armor because he had become a spirit and he was cursed that way after Numinor sank in the ocean. If he was wearing the ring as Numinor fell and Sauron fell with it and became a spirit, the ring would fall off and be lost in the ocean. There has to be a sense of logic when thinking about this. You have to have a body to wear jewlery, clothes and a hat. You have to have flesh to feel blood and warmth. You have to have consciousness and understanding of time and age (if you're mortal). You are given the gift of breathing fresh air and the gift of pleasure with sex. If you're a spirit walking on the waking plane you're probably going to be pretty pissed off because you can't do any of that let alone wear a magical ring as a spirit. It just isn't possible.
I wonder where he left it. Locked drawer? Under a vase?
My understanding of what the ring meant to Sauron is it was a kind of phylactery. It was both an amplifier of power/abilities and a container for his power. It allowed him to keep his power from dissipating after a death. It was not truly seperate from him. But the cost was he needed to be access it with his spirit to touch that power. So as long as he didn't know where it was and was not in possession of it himself or through a corrupted proxy he could not access his full power and was just a wraith. But if he does know where it is and can access it he can then use that power, therefore can act even as a spirit. Basically the ring was still in his possession in the first instance and thus all he needed to do was abandon that form to reclaim the ring and his power. But in the second instance the ring was cut from him and carried away. He was still reeling from death so could not reclaim the ring before another claimed it.
Basically the Ring was the reason he could act in the first and not the second. He technically needed to be the wearer for him to use it to be able to do more than just be a spirit.
Finally...Sauron definitely could use the Ring to dominate non-ringbearers. That was a power he had before he made the ring and as I stated the ring amplified abilities. So that one was even stronger when he wore the ring.Think of Saruman and his voice. That is one of Saruman's intrinsic powers. Imagine that amplified and you get why keeping the Ring on was such a big deal. Sauron would be hard to resist for the unwary. Those who could be corrupted would be. Just show up and his intoxicating presense would cause those around him to start thinking like him, making it easier for him to get them to side with him or at least act in a way that benefits him. It even makes sense if he was still wary of the strength of elves and men at that time. So was being sneaky instead of domineering. But in the third age the strength of men and elves was much eroded. Where as he was still more or less as he was thanks to the ring.
Sauron clearly doesn’t need the Ring to be more than just a spirit because he takes physical form again by the events of LOTR.
Could it just be the case that Sauron's spirit was weaker after being killed a second time? If being killed the first time made him unable to assume a fair appearance, then it seems to be the case that the deaths have some kind of effect on his power. So maybe Sauron's spirit after being killed the second time couldn't do as much as his spirit could prior
I think the proper assumption is that Sauron left the Ring in Mordor when he went with Ar Pharazon's men to Numenor; and then took it back up when he returned (the second is explicitly stated in the Akallabeth). He had great power to dominate others even without the Ring (as demonstrated in LOTR).
very interesting discussion I've had some of those same ideas. I try to take literally that ''carried" it off to middle-earth but it's kinda difficult to do so. another hypothesis is that he was trapped in this "bubble-realm" until the Dagor Dagorach with the Númenóreans and his only way out was to lose his fána. maybe the Ring can physically travel into the wraith-world but his own form can't and maybe this could be somehow related to the fact that he Never again could take fair shape?
Sauron didn't bring the Ring with him when he was taken as "prisoner" to Numenor. After his body was destroyed, his spirit returned to Mordor and with the Ring's help, Sauron soon recovered, though he was unable to take on a fair form after that. Then when he was killed at the end of the Last Alliance, his Ring was taken on the spot by Isildur and then lost in the Anduin. Without the Ring, it took a *lot* longer for Sauron to regain a physical form.
I imagine when Sauron made the ring, he was in his raw Maiar form. The act of uttering the ring words was the same as inscribing the words; the ring existed equally in physical and spiritual realms. Carrying the ring back as a spirit wouldn't involve a contradiction. There are weapons also that seemed to be in both realms -- respectively the nazgul's blade and Merry's sword -- which dissolved once they had fulfilled their purpose.
I'd question on if the in universe author of the Akallabeth would really know what became of Sauron's form at that point - maybe they heard from an Elf who heard from a Maiar who says they experienced something similar, or they were just theorizing after he showed up again in Middle Earth - for all they knew Sauron might have walked along the Ocean floor. IDK, maybe Isildur saw him fly past their ships.
I would assume Sauron would be loathed to part from his ring, and would just wear it with him everywhere, at all times, but maybe it'd be safer in Mordor - Saruman's theory that the ring down the river and lost to the great sea might mean Sauron could have had trouble recovering it if the boat sank (since he didn't expect the Island to sink!). And aren't all his servants fearful of water? Would he be as well?
Water was the substance in Arda least corrupted by the creation of "Morgoth's Ring", and any water connected to the sea would have a connection to Ulmo - so it would make sense that Sauron would not particularly enjoy riparian entertainment.
The general theory is that the ring being in middle earth is what allowed Sauron to survive the sinking of Numenor. The ring acted as an anchor for his spirit and allowed him to still function in the world after the destruction of his physical body. The ring could anchor him because he put part of himself in it.
If he had the ring in Numenor when it sank, it opens up a large number of questions with no easy answers. I mean it seems unlikely that the ring could survive the sinking while Sauron's physical body could not.
I didn't read any comments below, so if someone has said this already, my apologies. I would argue that "took up the ring again" is more akin to the idea of "take on the crown" - the ring was analogous to a crown in this usage as a symbol of his power in Mordor. "He assumed power once more in Mordor".
But he would have had power in Mordor regardless of the Ring, so saying he took up the sting specifically doesn’t naturally fit with that meaning.
I actually asked the question. The second part of the question was if Sauron still had it did the elves still have off there rings the third part of the question was if they knew he had it and he was a prisoner why was it not taken from him
I like the idea that he did not take the One to Numenor, but instead hid it in some secret and secure chamber in Barad-Dur.
Thus, it was not on his person when Numenor foundered beneath the waves.
Corroboration that he didn't need it to deceive and corrupt comes from the initial forging of the Rings of Power. He certainly deceived (and perhaps partially corrupted) Celebrimbor before there were any such things as Rings of Power. Granted, he poured much of his own power into the One, so the power to corrupt and deceive that he had available in Numenor was less than that he had had in Eregion. But had not the Kings of Numenor grown already vainglorious and jealous of the immortality of the Eldar? They did not have so far to fall.
In this view, then, the One takes on the role of an amplifier that was attuned to the other nineteen great Rings. Where the nineteen had their own powers, they also gave Sauron the conduit to use the One to dominate the wearer of any other great Ring. And this included such minds as the dwarven kings, Galadriel and Elrond, that he could not dominate without having the One as both an amplifier and as the key to unlock access to the mind of the wearer of another great Ring.
IMO.
Maybe it is a loophole ... Maybe Tolkien was too obsessed with Old English dictionaries and Beowulf studies, so he hadn't the time to think the topic through sufficiently. The nazgûls' fear of water and their ability to pass Gwathló at Tharbad is another such loophole.
who remembers when everyone hated Sauron and loved Galadriel ? how times have changed , thanks Amazon !
I’ve always assumed that one or more Black Numenoreans might have survived and carried the ring back to Mordor for Sauron
He had one of those Eagles carry it back! Gandalf knows and uses it as leverage over the Eagles to get rides!
In my own head canon (just hearing about this letter now; I always thought he left the Ring behind when the Numenoreans took him hostage) he would have made one of the Numenoreans from Andunie who left with Elendil and his sons into his thrall, not unlike Gollum, and that person would have borne the Ring back aboard one of their ships. It's a kind of a mash-mash of Dracula coming to England on the Demeter and Dracula possessing Renfield. I'm sure Tolkien would have hated that idea, but in fairness to me, I didn't imagine a black wind carrying away a golden ring across the waters all the way to Barad-Dur.
We don't have to use the word "seeming" to qualify Tolkien's contradictions. In religious circles, believers try to harmonize discrepancies in their holy literature buy working hard to (often unsuccessfully) explain away the contradictions. *But here we should have no need to do that.* Tolkien just contradicted himself, or changed the story, over the _decades_ of his writing. Authors do this, we should expect it. It also provides us with the liberty to interpret Tolkien more widely than may be comfortable for some.
The issue remains: how did a physical ring make it from a sunken Numenor back to the shores of Middle Earth? I have no idea if the Amazon RoP series will try to answer that one, but if they do then I'm interested in how they accomplish that.
I would have assumed that it has to do with claims of ownership. Like, maybe the reason Sauron couldn't get his ring back after losing his finger is simply that Isildur had yoinked it and was therefore the owner of the ring whereas in Numenor noone tried to take it.
Alternatively, one might have to be physically separated from the ring to actually lose it. If you die with the ring on and happen to be an immortal being who is only slightly inconvenienced by the loss of your body, then the ring might stay with you.
I never assumed Sauron would have taken his Ring to Numenor.
Sauron was pretty cautious for most time in his existence. Taking his most valuable possession with him into captivity (a very humiliating one, at least in the beginning) would have been a really dumb move IMO.
I did not know about that letter until now and I really think we should not read too much into it.
I have learned in recent years not to treat everything Tolkien wrote as word of god. Not only did he change his mind many times, some topics were also clearly not as important to him than they were to us.
For example: I always wondered where the Sea of Helcar was located. When Karen Wynn Fonstad located it in the are where Mordor is in the 2nd and 3rd Age, I thought it made a lot of sense, especially when you look at the Ambarkanta maps. This made a lot of sense to me. Now there are more recently published texts that seem to contradict this. That Mount Doom was created by Morgoth in the First Age. But then there are other contradictions to deal with. The sea couldn't have been located more north since there are the Misty Mountains (which were not present in the Ambarkanta, but definitely in the Silmarillion of the First Age). Also, it couldn't have been located further east since there is another thing Tolkien wrote that claims that the Orocarni are not much furthe east from Gundabad than the Ered Luin are.
I came to the conclusion that Tolkien didn't much care for that problem and certainly didn't think about the Sea of Helcar when he made any of those remarks and was about to drop much of his early mythology anyway.
So I think Fonstad's speculation is still the one that fits most.
i think he left the ring in mordor... i mean, what if the numenoreans decided to execute him or something, the ring would've been his guarantee of resurgence.
why would he risk losing his weapon to his enemies.
Or even, maybe he bore a fake ring to numenor while the real was hidden in mordor
Did he leave it behind somewhere safe as he didn't need it in Numenor?
This isn't hard to me. That the Ring was taken from Sauron was already established in LOTR. Exactly what happened in Numenor was not yet established. The account given in LOTR is very bare bones. Sauron goes to Numenor, bewitches the King and turns most of the populace against the Valar, which he hoped would result in the destruction of Numenorean power. The response was greater than he anticipated and he was killed as well. Being a Maiar and so immortal he went back to Barad Dur and lost his ring to Isildur. Exactly where the Ring was while Sauron was in Numenor is not revealed. Tolkien probably had not thought about that. When asked about this issue in a letter he gave a seemingly reasonable answer without considering how it contradicts the lost of the Right to Isildur. When Christopher was putting together a coherent narrative for the Akalabeth he wrote it such that the Ring had stayed in Mordor which really makes the most sense. It explains how Elvish power was able to grow during his time in Numenor (how would they be able to that if the Elves could not use the Three because Sauron was wearing the One in Numenor).
Why do you think the elves could only increase their power when they were able to use the Three?
books in the Silmarillion are written almost as in-world histories, so you can always write something like this off as being a misunderstanding on the part of the in-world historian
Based on my view of the primacy of published work, I think it is clear that Sauron left his Ring at Barad Dur. Sauron even without his Ring had great power to influence minds. Look at figures like Hitler or Stalin. Sauron was easily more than the equal to them. Sauron needed the Ring to dominate individuals like Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. To run an empire a dictator needs competent, noncorrupt servants. The problem is the more competent the vassal the greater the risk they will endeavor to supplant you. So dictators tend to replace their most capable subordinates with ultra loyal toadies who are less effective in carrying our the dictators wishes. This is why Russia is doing so poorly in Ukraine and Sauron needed such enormous armies. The Ring was a solution to this problem, by ensuring that competent underlings remained loyal. The way I imagined the Rings effect was like how the Mule converted people in Asimov's Foundation series.
On the subject of where rings were in Sauron's absence...The consensus is that by the time of LOTR, Sauron held the nine rings of the Nazgul himself. I have seen this cited as a reason why Sauron could trust the nazgul to bring him the One ring if they found it - because he held their rings.
When and how did he take them back? Did the Nazgul have them during the third age until Sauron returned? Would it have been a struggle of wills for him to reclaim the rings in this case? Or were the rings hidden in Mordor somewhere during Sauron's absence?
Rasy: he never took the Ring to Numenor but left it hidden in Mordor. (At least that was my impression from reading the Silmarillion).
But that’s not what he says in his letter.
@@TolkienLorePodcast No, it isn't. But I am more familiar with the Sil than with the letters.
I'm not convinced that the Ring would only dominate those who also had Rings. I believe the reason why Sauron made the Ring wasn't just to control and bind the other Rings, but to increase his magical power far beyond his native power that he had all on his own without the Ring. But to achieve this he had to pour much of his native Maia power into it for it to work. As long as he wore it he had all his power plus the power the Ring gave him access to. Without it he couldn't maintain a corporeal body and had to flee and begin the process of building a new physical body without the Ring - a slow laborious task. As to the question of how Sauron as a disembodied spirit could grab the Ring and carry it back to Mordor, I don't know. Tolkien didn't know, but said it must have been done. As for the question of if Sauron could do that, why couldn't he do it again when the Ring was cut from his finger, I don't know that either. But Tolkien said all this, so that's it.
Encase the One ring in a 1 ton block of cement, put it on a massive boat with a crane where the compass and astrolabe are locked up. Have the ship wander for 3 days, drop the cement block. Have the ship wander for 1 more day, unlock the navigation tools and find your way home. Was that so hard?
One might ask oneself what Bombadil did when he made the Ring disappear, and whether Sauron had the same ability.
Or whether Rings are truly just rings, considering Sam couldn’t see Galadriel’s, just a star of some sort, and later on the One ring appeared to be a “wheel of fire”. The Ring even changes weight and size depending on its situation.
In which case, maybe Sauron’s spirit didn’t have to transport anything materially physical (or is that ‘physically material🤔) as we understand it, at all.
Based on text from LOTR there seems to be a special significance to "claiming" the ring. Whether it is freely given or taken by force the ring attaches itself to the new owner regardless of physical contact. E.g. the ring gives long life to mortals even when rarely worn or it is hidden away. When Frodo offers Gandalf the ring Gandalf is desperate to make clear he is not claiming it, ditto Faramir. I wonder if Sauron could access some of the ring's power from Numenor even if it was physically in Mordor. But when Isildur claimed the ring and Sauron was not in a position to contest his will, Sauron's bond with the ring was broken. Interesting to think that it may have been necessary for Isildur to claim the ring.
I don’t think so. The Ring is Sauron’s, regardless of who possesses it, and is always working to get back to him, so I don’t think “claiming” the Ring has any implications beyond the corruption of the person claiming it.
Thank you for answering my question. I never thought about the possibility of Isildur bring the One who killed Sauron because Tolkien seems to say it was a combination of Elendil and Gil-galad that killed Sauron. But that would indeed explain why Sauron's fëa did not grab the ring and fly off. That said, it made me think about something else. Why couldn't Sauron's spirit hang around Isildur until there was an opportunity to seize the Ring and fly off? Does Tolkien have a kind of 3-second rule when it comes to fëar carrying off rings?
Anyway, the only reason there is a contradiction is because Christopher wrote the account differently in The Silmarillion. I am sure he was very careful about piecing the story together. After he published the Letters, he had to know that his father himself clearly laid out what happened and why. So did he ever address this issue in any of the books in HoME? He explained just about every other element of the lore that seemingly contradicted it.
I personally prefer the idea that Sauron left his One Ring well guarded in the Dark Tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, awaiting his return, I don't think he would risk losing his Ring for whatever unforeseen reason that might occur while surrendering as Ar-Pharazôn's "servant", who could himself claim possession of the One from his new prisoner, let alone someone as proud as Ar-Pharazôn, I don't think Sauron would take that risk. Besides that, as stated in the video, Sauron is much more than capable of influencing and bending the will of other beings and deceiving them without the possession of the One Ring (even more so the Númenóreans in their Dark Times), there is no better example than what he was able to do throughout the Third Age, without the possession of the Ring. If I were to see an adaptation, I would much prefer this version, I think it adds more to Sauron's terrible ability to influence beings and is more accurate with that same ability of the Dark Lord. On top of that, I have some difficulty seeing the sentence, "He took up once again the great Ring..." right after being told that he had returned from the Downfall of Númenor and not imagining that he had left the One in Mordor, what's the point of him taking and using the Ring "again" if he was already with it?
Maybe he was able to escape Numenor with the ring because it was with him the entire time, while it strictly wasn't with him when he 'died' at the last battle of the Last Alliance. That is, no one in Numenor physically took the ring from his body before it was destroyed, but Isildur DID take the ring from him before his body was destroyed later, crippling his ability to actually transfer it with him? Makes as much sense as anything else.
Hello Sir,
to start thanks for the videos, i even rewatch some of them multiple times ;)
A question just popped into my mind: what happened to the Witch-Kings ring during/after the battle of the pelennor fields? After his defeat. Did it vanquisch? Did it return to Sauron? Was it taken by the free peoples?
Thanks in advance!
Greetings
Tolkien indicates in at least one place that Sauron actually has the Nine in his possession, so the Witch King wouldn’t have been wearing his.
@@TolkienLorePodcast thank you very much for the quick reply good sir! Interesting, so the nine did not even have to wear the rings to maintain their effects?
Did the scene at weathertop not imply tough that Frodo was able to see the Nazgul wearing them? Or was that a Peter Jackson Thing?
Good Day and thanks again!
Yeah I think PJ had them wearing their rings. As for still having the effects of the rings, I don’t think they did. The terror they inspired is a result of them being wraiths, not of the rings per se, which were crafted by elves and thus presumably not designed to have such effects.
@@TolkienLorePodcast so why did Sauron have to wear it yet not they? Or Gollum. They dont just die by not wearing them even tough they make them Immortal?
Same reason Frodo or Gollum would have become a permanent wraith even if Sauron reclaimed his Ring.
"take up" is just an idiom, it doesn't mean to physically pick something up
Why couldn't Sauron have had the Ring for a time, before he sent it away with one of his servants back to Mordor, and remained intact in Numenor. Maybe he only grew wholly dependant upon the Ring to continue to 'exist' in Middle-Earth so to speak after his original physical body was destroyed? Or is that an oversimplification?
Anyways a great video as always.
Well Tolkien makes it clear he had the Ring at the downfall of Numenor. Besides, who would he possibly entrust to take it to Mordor for him, and why would he?
Perhaps he had the ring initially, but then foresaw the disaster and took it back to ME and hid it prior to the sinking of Numenor.
That wouldn't be consistent with Tolkien's letter.
I've thought about the same thing myself.
Biggest Plot hole in LOTR.Sauron leaves it in Baradur.When He surrenders to the King." When His Spirit Arose from the Abyss Borne on a Dark Wind.He Returned to the Baradur and took Up His Ring Again.His Rage was Not Less.For Even With its Power He could never Again Make a Form fair to Men or Elves.He Became Black and Hidious with a Single Eye in His Forehead.and His Power was thru Terror Alone"...
Isildur won the initiative roll and snagged the ring first. Honestly I thought he left it in Barad-Dur, I have not read all the different letters.
I don't see why the idea that Sauron, as a Maiar, could simply carry the ring with him in spirit form away from Numenor, is hard to grasp. That's always seemed what he did based on the text. Every death caused a diminishment and lessening of power so the shock of his next death in the War of the Last Alliance and subsequent loss of power, prevented him carrying the ring off.
Given how much Sauron coveted the Ring, I don't agree with the idea that Sauron would voluntarily leave the Ring in Middle Earth or ever willingly separate himself from it. I also believe the Ring enhanced Sauron's native strength as well as providing domination of the other Rings of Power. I don't see why it couldn't be both.
Can you explore the topic of Aragorn's ability to stay awake for many days in a row? I don't think Aragorn slept from the time he left lothorien until the ring was destroyed . The book and the film show other members of the fellowship resting but never strider.
He definitely slept. He and Gimli at least slept twice while chasing the Uruk-hai, though it’s not clear for how long. And I see no reason to think he never slept after that.
@@TolkienLorePodcast During the greatest run of the 3 kindreds?. I will read it again . Thanks for info.
For that matter, in the Hobbit, the Company goes days without sleep: From the morning before the arrive at the cave leading to Goblintown to the night they arrive at the eyrie, the only sleep Bilbo gets is when he was knocked out, and the only sleep everyone else gets is half a night's sleep on that first night. Yet when they get to the eyrie, they stay up for a couple hours to cook and eat dinner before going to sleep.
I assumed he could move things as a spirit but he needs a body to put anything on because his ring is a physical thing and grounds him in it as it contains most of his will needed to return
Edit : To clarify specifically mean he would need a body to claim the ring also after watching another one of your videos I think the ring is actually a fair long term decision if the will within it can never decrease meaning he could return in time so long as it’s not claimed by a worthy being or put in mount doom whereas without a ring it may be that after so many deaths he could end up as impotent regardless if he loses a little will to linger in a meaningful way but if the ring is safe he has all the time in the world
OK casual reader and fan but maybe "Took up the ring again" since he was trying to seem reformed in Numenor (perhaps to the larger world and not just the Numenorians), but afterward 'resumed his highkey evil ways'?
I believe this contradiction is a contradiction and it arose because Tolkien struggled with marrying the story of Akallabeth and the forging of Rings of power. There is no reason why Sauron would not bring the One Ring to Numenor, given all the labours and trouble he have gone through and it being his chief feat and master weapon. The problem then arise of how to get the Ring back to Mordor in time of the Last Alliance. But the central contradiction is a remnant of Tolkien writing the Akallabeth and Rings of Power at seperate times.
Furthermore, I wonder what is stated of the Ringwraiths. It is said that Three of the Nine where great lords of Numenor. But had these already left Numenor for Middle Earth at this point, or did they perish alongside Sauron in the Downfall? Certainly they were in Middle Earth unless they too possessed the ability to bring their Rings and Spirit upon a black wind to Mordor.
We have to assume Sauron isn’t complete without the Ring, so Him not taking it to Numenor would be pretty bizarre for a few reasons.
1) Why would he want to be diminished in any way in that scenario? Just because the Ring’s primary purpose is to manipulate the others doesn’t mean a greater part of his essence and spirit isn’t locked within it.
2) For an object that’s critical to his very existence where and why would he trust to leave it in a now conquered and occupied Mordor?
The scale of this particular argument is very imbalanced, on the one side is direct black & white references that it was in Numenor and carried back physically. On the other a simple debate on the meaning of “Take up”. It seems pretty straight forward here that the simplest explanation is the wording on the later is being overly analyzed. Maybe the Ring was always in his possession but he couldn’t put it on again without his physical form.
I think you're missing a fifth option, or a consequence of one of your two main options, that ends up solving the issue either way.
Personally, I am willing to take the Silmarillion as canon here. Whether Tolkien changed his mind after the letter was written, or perhaps Christopher Tolkien, seeing the problem, took it upon himself, the designated literary heir and who most fully knew his father's mind (Manwë to Eru, if you will), this becomes immaterial.
However, let's address the "spirit carrying tightly tied ring" viewpoint, which, while you point out as problematic, you also point out Tolkien himself, at least at one point, favored this. Like you have addressed elsewhere, the fallen Maiar and Vala (Balrogs, for example, and Morgoth), the longer in evil, the greater the lessening of power. As batteries disconnected from the charging source, in this case the Flame Imperishable, eventually their power ones, and the swifter the more their physical forms and their spirits lost power.
So, let's say Sauron, whose already lost the ready change of forms he seems to have had in the First Age, from sorcerer to werewolf to vampire, prior to and during his contests with Luthien and Huan, seems more locked into Annatar during the Second Age...a form he retains even after his identity is discovered by Celebrimbor with the secretly forged Elven rings.
So, when the Annatar body is destroyed after the downfall of Numenor, his spirit retains the ability AT THAT TIME to bring the spirit-enfused ring. But now, like Morgoth before him, whose spirit was much diffused throughout Arda itself and in maintaining the control of his various twisted perversions, so too now Sauron is lessened. He creates a new body, but is more bound to it... however defeated, whether disabled or killed physically prior to the Ring being cut from his hand, it takes nigh on a millennial before he is able to powerfully manifest as the Necromancer, and even then, weak enough that giving way prior to the Watchful Peace is necessary, not feigned, as it would be nearly TWO MILLENIA later. His ability to remanifest after the drowning of Numenor, aided by the Ring either way, is measured in a handful of years...but no longer able to take a fair seeming form. His ability to remanifest after is measured in MILLENIA, and as Gollum tells us, he is still missing the finger Isildur cut away, much as Morgoth was evermore halt from the wounds delivered by Fingolfin.
Is it therefore a stretch to conclude that, though his spirit retained the ability to recover the ring from drowned Numenor, that having expended much power to swiftly remanifest after this, with another physical devastation less than 5 decades later, that after the defeat ending the Second Age, that his spirit no longer had this power, that seizing the Ring from Isildur or even in the moments prior to the cutting of the finger was NO LONGER an option?
That would be my argument. Either he left it safely behind in Barad-Dur when Ar-Pharazon seized him (at Sauron's own sufferance), and in non-corporeal form either lacked the ability and/or the need to retrieve the Ring from Numenor, or he had it with him, unperceived by the prideful Ar-Pharazon, and having once had this power to carry the Ring non-corporeally, had expended this power in creating a new physical form and then suffering another devastating defeat so soon after creating the post-Annatar form, such that, like losing the ability to create a fair form, and even after a full form (missing finger in Necromancer form), the ability to seize the Ring spiritually is also lost.
Let's be real. You have an immensely powerful weapon/artefact. Would you take it with you into captivity where it might be taken from you? I think not. You hide it somewhere secure to return for it later. Or from the Numenorean perspective. You capture a powerful enemy. What, you do not search him for weapons? Maybe Sauron can make the ring invisible! Right, and maybe there is no one in the entirety of Numenor that could sense it, the Numenoreans might have been on their way to perdition by this time, but they were neither inconsequential nor stupid.
The Ring never left Middle-Earth.
Thats always been what i assumed as well
That is the best storyline. I think Christopher had plenty of material to reference, likely including Letter #211. Sauron never needed the Ring to control the minds of Men. The original Rings of Power were all meant for Elves. Also, the Numenorians were corrupt and evil before Sauron's influence, so he had willing participants in all his plans. Also, there is no way Sauron could have hidden the power of the Ring as he wore it. Everyone would have felt it.
That said, there is still Letter #211. It clearly states he DID take the Ring to Numenor and he DID fly it back to Barad-dur.😒
I had the impression that when he actually came to Númenor, he was there in spirit and image only (which for even the greatest of Men - would seem like he was physically present, yes?) That in itself answers any 'carrying the ring around' and 'how did it get back across the sea' bits. He can 'still' be in Middle-Earth and using his Ring - and generate an image of himself in front of Humans in Númenor I would think (He's freakin' Sauron ok, the most powerful Evil in ME) annd even to the Elves while Ring-Making.. Maybe Sauron was just having an 'out of body experience' for a few hundred years while hanging with the King bros, corrupting them. I mean - how else were the rest of his forces run and managed then back in ME - Orcs are a terrible lot to just sit around on their hands with nothing to do? He didn't have his 9 Wraithlords as yet, nor his 'Mouth' - they all came after when Númenor had finally fallen. So who ran the show while he was out and about? No one - he was at home the entire time?
Wouldn't this also play into how certain Elves of 'high caliber' no matter his fair image - distrusted him? (They sensed something was off obviously -but not enough to realize who he was). If he had actually been 'physically' present with the Elves (Celebrimbor) while making the Rings of Power - pretty sure the stench of Sauron would have given him away (no amount of Mary Kay magic is going to hide Sauron in the presence of elder Noldor - they've been fighting him for 2 ages at this point).
Why would you think he was there in image/spirit only?
What is even carrying?