I love that Tolkien wrote these books, creates these beings and their stories but still theorized on their origins. Like he was discovering an ancient history and sharing it with us.
The new way I’ve heard it described is that the books read as if he was the only person to ever journey to arda and when he returned tried to write down as much about it as he could remember.
That's literally what he was doing, creating a fictional prehistoric history for great brittain ... Like he found the red book and was only it's translator and such
I always thought that Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant were the unforseen consequence of the creation of Arda that stemmed from the discourse of the song of creation.
Out of everything he did, all the work he put in creating ridiculous amounts of detail for his books, its the parts that he didnt bother finishing that captivates the most.
maybe it's best that she has mysterious origins, my theory is that she was conceived frol what wasn't said. which would explain her "unlight" instead of her darkness, she isn't morgoth creation/pervesion she was created by the spaces. nihil ex nihilo. would also explain the fact that she consumes light, and also it makes for a analogy (I kno tolkien hated those, with Black holes, who devour even light and get bigger and bigger until whne they have consumed everything start to consume themselve
I have long suspected Ungoliant to be one of the nameless things. It seems fitting given her ancient existence as well as her affiliation to darkness despite having served no dark lord. Her feeding on light also reminds me of Gandalf's famous quote when talking about the nameless things: "Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day".
@@user-yn6eu7xc5i They are nameless because their specie doesn't have a name and their existence is unknown by almost everyone in middle earth. The watcher is a surname given to this specific one.
Ungoliant is by far the most terrifying creature in the lore. She's also a tragic character whose hunger will never be sated. You want to feel sorry for her but you can't, she's just a stuff of nightmares
It's unfortunate, but I see an allegory here. Perhaps Tolkien lost a friend/comrade to drug use. An addiction is a hunger that is only sated in death or in escaping the monkey on the back. If the great Tolkien was still alive I would ask him in a letter
@@dimitrilitovsk2372 not a bad thepry have u heard of the theory of the Blakc hole allegory a black hole is really interesting cquse it isn't dark, it is as ungoliant "unlight" darkness needs light to exist, unlight meanwhile is constantly fighting a battle with light, just like in a black hole who only devour everything and get bigger, the hunger of the blac hole can never be satiated, and when it grows too much it crumbles and consume itself.
So personally I think she is something from the void something that was there before the song made reality into solid matter that formed around her trapping her in a real place an alien place to her and it was that been trapped in the song that made her hunger, she wasn’t meant to be “”real”” so been trapped in a web that wove itself around her it broke her and because she didn’t know what this realm was or how she came to be in it she had no hope of escaping it. I don’t think she was alone I believe she was of the same stock as the nameless things that Gandalf’s refused to talk of in the deep places of the world only she was stronger and larger so her hunger was bigger to match. I also think that Tom was similar to ungoilant only made of something else but he was also from outside the song and as such nothing in the song really had any power over him, I think how he ended up inside the setting was that he saw it been woven together and he decided to go and explore it.
Dude!! I have to say, I love your pronunciation!! This is the first channel that delves into Tolkien's mythos, that actually respects the source material enough to learn how to pronounce the names and places properly!! Well done, mate! I salute you! Of course, there are still a few names I need to hear you say to be 100% certain of you and your pronunciation, but you're already miles ahead of every other channel I've ever seen. 👍👍👍
This is one of the best Ungoliant lore videos I've seen yet and though it doesn't give a definitive answer as to where Ungoliant originates, it still delves into a few possibilities as to what she could be. IMO, i think Ungoliant is the personification of the chaos that exists outside the physical realm since it's been said that Melkor first encountered her in the void in his relentless search for the secret fire. Though I'd love to see more Ungoliant lore videos, i know we will never get an answer as to what she really is and where she truly comes from, oh and i just found the channel today and I've subscribed cuz your skills of narrating Arda lore is top notch😁
Given that the theft of Silmarils is the point of no return for Melkor in his path of self-destruction, you could say that being consumed by a physical manifestation of his own evil and only saved by his slaves is a very appropriate transition from a god - one of the creators of the world - into a mere Dark Lord.
Almost as thought Melkor created a dark A.I. bent on destruction; little would Melkor know his own creation would treat him as something to destroy. Almost as though Tolkien was a brilliant man who could see through simple logic: a machine made to eat and only eat would never stop eating. Ungoliant is Tiamat. Morgoth used his discord and created the deep ocean, dragons, and evils beyond his might.
A follow up question (unanswerable, obviously) is did Melkor know at the time that he was creating living beings when he sang discord into the theme? Did Melkor ever know he was Ungoliant's creator or was he just as surprised by her existence when he later happened upon her?
@The Adjudicator I am inclined in this direction as well. When Melkor sang discord into the theme it was of its own spontanious impulse to be oppositional to the order of the theme. He had no idea that slithery, multi-legged, many- eyed, horned and scaley creatures were birthing from his voice and into the shadowy edges of creation.
Melkor created ungoliant?! I read the story she grabbed him and he let a shriek so deafening it pierced the mountains and valleys. Goddam rhats evil if u can get melkor aka morgoth to cry for mommy!
Huh, you had some informative tidbits (not just in this video) that I had no idea of and I've seen many others channels about the same subjects... it's always fun running into new information, cheers for all your efforts!
As Tolkien applied Biblical aspects to his mythos, Unguliant was the incarnation of Gluttony. There is no better explanation, than the story of her demise...
Someone commented that Tom Bombadil was based on a children's toy from Tolkien's childhood. Maybe Ungoliant has a similar origin, a character he worked in despite not belonging to his middle earth lore.
Excellently explained and illustrated, am since I was 8 years old a Tolkien books fan, started with "the Hobbit", and got through all his masterpieces, including his letters. Am 53 now 😂😂😂 and still dig with passion ❤Special thanks for this presentation, beautiful video and well done. Best regards from Paris, France 👍🌹 Razvan
I like thinking Ungoliant is made up of the compiled, minuscule amounts of the Void that each ainur and maiar unwittingly brought into Arda when they passed from The Timeless Halls through the Void. Think of going to the beach, then washing and drying off, yet always unknowingly bringing home a bit of sand with you. If each ainur and maiar did that, there would be quite a pile of sand/Void -- that's Ungoliant.
@@valentinomiller6251 I think another should continue the work and studies"of the professor" on that world I swear. I know Amazon did a shitty job and in fact It's not what I want to do, but somebody will have to act like another professor studying middle earth and recounting the takes of the past. cause I think at this point Middle earth isn't just a story, it is history. and someone should complete that history
@@valentinlageot4101 I once thought that too, but unsure I want it touched. I wouldn't want the vibe, writing style to change. For instance, in some parts of the Sil, I can tell it wasn't Tolkien himself, but his son, Christopher, who filled in the blanks. The tone was different. I wouldn't want that. I'd rather leave it unfinished as-is.
@@valentinomiller6251 I have hopes that someone pick up those books and say: "I'mgonna finish the work of the professor an I'll do it with as much passion and competency as him" it's not to say that you have to be better than tolkien, but you should/someone atleast who wants to do it should strive to be and understand his thought process or think like him.
I would find the last explanation the most likely. That she was born from the discord of the music of the Ainur caused by Melkor. A primordial being which was not part of anyones original plan. But that would also mean, that in an ironic and indirect way, she owes her miserable existence to Melkors meddling with creation itself at the beginning.
I never understand all this theories. She was either one of very poverful maiar or some super minor valar. It is clearly implied in Silmarillion. In Tolkien world there is no any intelligent creatures beyond spirits (or there descedants), elves, humans and dwarfes
@@LiverpoolFCtalk i forget the specifics buts its in lotr. When gandalf fights the ballrog after falling in the depths. Something about his enemy being his only hope in the face of unknown horrors.
@@MarKous47 Yep, I like to think that the Nameless Ones were created by the discord clashing with the melody whereas Ungoliant was originally a maiar that served morgorth, became greedy and took off on her own in search of power, eventually taking the physical form of the greed she represented.
My first visit here dear Sir and a pleasant one, to be sure. I shall take opportunity to view your other offerings and I suspect a Subscription to your Channel is close on the horizon. Thanks very much for your efforts, excellent narrative. p.s. It's pretty incredible to grasp, that Tolkien's writings are so powerful, that even a character whose entire story can be captured on a single page of text, can provide sufficient fuel for an entire Thesis on the "physicality of evil", for example. The man was so far beyond typical authorship, it's almost embarrassing to others of the profession.
I believe in the second origin version.. the Valar hinted something else by their words and the fact she could never satisfy her hunger...i dont believe Ungoliant was part of their music gone wrong..more like Ungoliant is a manifestation of the void outside Arda , a being of primodrial darkness that predates all creation , including the Ainur.
Given that all Ainur are immortal beings (I assume there isn't really even the concept of "death" among them, because death is only something that happens to physical bodies, not to spiritual beings), it's hard to imagine that Ungoliant is dead. Maybe her physical body died, but not she herself. And if she still exists that means she can take a new corporeal form at any time.
He always insisted he didn't have a problem with them. He first wrote giant spiders into The Hobbit because one of his sons was afraid of them. That said, as a small child in South Africa he was bitten by a spider and nearly died, so maybe he was less okay with them than he let on.
@@sychuan3729 They are indeed in half of fantasy, and Tolkien is the main reason why. He might not have wholly invented the genre, but he invented a lot of the tropes used in modern fantasy. The spiders in the Hobbit didn't belong to the Elves, though -- they were an invasive species, that became an infestation when the Greenwood made the shift into Mirkwood thanks to Sauron taking up residence right next door.
Spiders and snakes are natural enemies of mammals, innate fear. Take it from an Iowan; Australia may have most of the venomous animals, only in Iowa will all four live in your house. Brown Recluse, Black Widow, Prairie Rattler and Copperhead. All four can live in your boots outside while you let them dry. In town.
I thik she was a being of outer influence that was influenced by Melkor and later choose to come down to Arda to fulfill her hunger for more: more power, more influence and more darkness. She is a void that will never be full because she is exactly that - a maw without end. That she could overpower Melkor is the more impressive feat. He was the strongest being on Arda and she was about to eat him? Thats just wild.
Tolkien's original postulation that Ungoliant was an Ainu (Maia) made far more sense for reasons having to do with the nature of free will and creation in Tolkien's lore (though it would have made for sense for Ungoliant to be a full-on Vala given her ability to overpower Melkor). The issue with Tolkien's second suggested origin story for her is that she was a creature who seemed to possess free will. Tolkien made it clear that, although Vala could create life, only Eru could create life from nothing imbued with free will. All other races of non-Ainu evil creatures with some sense of personal agency (orcs, dragons) started out as different creatures, of which their orc, dragon, (etc.) incarnations were mere corruptions, which Melkor (and later Sauron) bred to make more of them.
didn't aulé create the dwarf from nothing? I always thought that it was just forbidden for them to create life rather than they couldn,'t even though the only valar who was able create was aule.
When Aulé created the dwarves, they initially could only act when Aulé willed them to act. They were basically puppets. Eru then admonished Aulé for creating new life without asking for permission. Aulé subsequently prepared to destroy the dwarves. Before he could bring down his hammer, however, the dwarves pleaded for their lives. Eru then told Aulé that He had imbued them with the Flame Imperishable (the gift of free will). Afterwards, Eru told Aulé that he could release them into the world, but only after Eru had created and awakened the elves. There is thus not the same issue with creative power and free will that there is with Ungoliant and Tolkien’s second origin story for her.
She is Wirilomë the Gloomweaver. She was intended to be Melkor's bride in the Timeless Halls before the Ainulindale. They broke up when Melkor wanted Elbereth (Varda) for himself, but got rejected. After the First War, she enters Ea as Moru, Spirit of Primordial Night. She later assumes monstrous spider form and becomes Ungoliant.
I do not know the point of origin for the speculation I heard regarding the origins of Ungoliant, but it follows in the tradition of the second explanation Tolkien gave. The Discords of Melkor produced "unintended consequences" for Ea, among which was the awakening of "The Spirit of the Void" - a reactionary incarnation of chaos triggered by the intrusion of substance and form into that primordial void - which Melkor then encountered in his search for the Flame Imperishable. He then appealed to this spirit to join his host in his bid to rule Arda, which she greedily accepted, but soon after descending into the world, she realized that her own nature, when physically instantiated, caused her to hunger ravenously and continuously. She also became aware that her physical body could be destroyed which, because she was not born of the Flame Imperishable as the Ainur were, would result in her actual unmaking (the annihilation of her being). When the full weight of her predicament had dawned on her, she forsook Melkor's service to pursue her own survival strategy.
For many years, people have debated the true nature of this entity. Some believe it embodies darkness, an elemental force in the Tolkien universe. However, it is widely accepted that light cannot exist without darkness, just as warmth cannot live without cold, and life cannot exist without death. In my opinion, this entity represents one aspect of that duality that even Melkor, with all his power and wisdom, could not control or understand.
I'm sure that in "Unfinished tales" Or "Lost tales" there is something along the lines of Melkor meeting her in the outer void (before the creation song) whilst he was searching for "The Flame Imperishable" and that it was implied that she was a (THE?) spirit of darkness (like an opposite of Eru being the lord of light) and suggestion that she corrupted him rather than the other way around. It is decades since i read these books so i may have extrapolated a lot from a little but that is always in my mind when she is mentioned.
She was either one of very poverful maiar or some super minor valar. It is clearly implied in Silmarillion. I never understand all this theories. In Tolkien world there is no any intelligent creatures beyond spirits (or there descedants), elves, humans and dwarfes
No there isn't. I read the Unfinished Tales from cover to cover until the book wore out when I was younger and there is no mention of Ungoliant worth mentioning in that text.
@@sychuan3729 It isn't at all implied in The Silmarillion what Ungoliant is aside from she had a spider-shape, she consumed all, that she was forever hunger, and ended up likely consuming herself, but not before siring Shelob.
@@thecollector6746 well, I decided to open Sillmarillion "some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service". So it is clearly implied that she was one of spirits who came with Melkor to Arda. Even without this, Tolkien world is very clear: there is no any other intelligent creatures except created by Illuvatar directly (spirits, elves, humans) or indirictly (dwarfes). All others are either descendants or some modification of this four. Ungoliant isn't elf, dwarf, human so she spirit.
I am Ungoliant. I am a Tarantula. I met with Aragorn who filled me with power. Then Melchior came. I needed much food which Esme provided. I am an Einar born to Ulmo beneath the sea as Arabella.
Where Light is, there must be darkness. I would spekulate that she was some kind of byproduct in the creation of Illuvatar, since everything he created was meant to be good and beautiful, so everything (or almost) everything bad and dark was concentrated into her.
When the world sees a narcissistic leader narcissist defanged and declawed, sometimes it’s best not to study too much into it lest you yourself get pulled into the evil. Saruman learned that the hard way.
I think she ended before Shelob, since the Silmarillion told she eventually devoured herself, in past-tense. And unlike Maiar or Valar, she never re-emerged, so I suspect she was one of the lesser beings, lesser than Maiar.
It could be a primordial creature embodied some notions. I've always thought Tom Bombadil as some sort of an elemantal spirit. Ungoliath may be the embodiment of greed
My theory is that she was an unintentional Valar of Darkness. Eru Illuvitar didnt mean to make her, she almost made herself at the same time the other Valar were being created and hid from his sight.
Okay, so Balrogs are corrupted Maiar, right? What were the werewolves? The vampires? What was the watcher in the lake? The living stone guardians of minas morgul? The nameless things at the roots of Moria? The fell beasts the Nazgul rode? And the Barrow wraiths, where in the song were they created? For that matter, when were the Eagles created and where would they go when they died? and Who and what were Tom Bombadil and Goldberry? Was the old forest really just Huorns? so many questions. Oh, and the Storm Giants from the Hobbit? and how did the Beornings get the ability to turn into bears? Is that somehow related tot he Werewolves? and Huan?
The Werewolves were created by sauron by imprisoning evil spirits inside of wolves, creating the monstrous creatures. I don't know about the vampires but it's possible the watcher in the water was a very very non-powerful nameless thing. I'm not sure about the stone guardians, the nameless things were possibly fallen maiar, or the same species of ungoliant. The fell beasts were dragon like creatures created by sauron so the nazgul rode them, but he couldn't make it so they breathed fire. I'm not sure about the barrow wraiths, but the eagles did not have fea (souls) they were controlled by manwe, they didn't have free will, so when they got killed they didn't go anywhere. Tom bombadil and goldberry are mysterious characters and we are forced to speculate. The old forest was regular tree's posible ent's, and huorns.
Here's why I love the great dark spider. She's unexplained, and a good author knows that sometimes a mystery is more interesting than a concrete answer
Ungoliant is the mother of all those vile creatures who continuously call about your vehicle's extended warranty. And Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the Bureau of Consumer Protection who, despite having tremendous power, refuses to get involved in the affairs of regular folk. I'm pretty sure that's exactly how Tolkien envisioned them. As for what became of Ungoliant, the legends say that a very cunning elven king brought her some Taco Bell, disguised as a silmaril. And Ungoliant, in her hunger, devoured it without thought, only to have her hunger utterly betrayed and destroyed by a gastrointestinal terror beyond even her darkest imagination. After that, she was never able to eat solid food again, and eventually withered away, both from hunger and chronic diarrhea.
perhaps Bombadil was Eru's first attempt at creating life. But gave him power or invulnerability to power a bit too close too his own seemingly infinite power. This would make Tom Eldest as he says when asked who he is. Eru then saw that harmonious coexistence was not likely if everyone had Tom's power. So, the Elven Pantheon was developed, leaving Tom separate. Eru then seeing Tom as his first creation, left him to himself only limiting the size of the domain in which he has power. an outside observer as it were to Middle Earth. ok, a lot of conjecture here, but I like the mystery of his identity. I'm probably not the first to get this idea, but none of the stuff I watched about this contained this exact idea.
Evil is not a thing in itself in Judeo-Christianity like it is in LOTR. Yahweh decides what is good and what is evil and humans have free will to obey/disobey. Yahweh has said that doing work on the sabbath is against his command (for instance). It may not make sense to a person the reason why but Yahweh decides. In ancient Judaism there were works a person who transgresses must perform (rituals, animal sacrifices, etc) to cover the sin. In Christianity it is Jesus's work on the cross and one's faith in that which covers sin. But in LOTR certain creatures ARE evil and there is no redemptive process. Its interesting that for as much of a Catholic that Tolkein was, his messaging in LOTR was that there is no redemptive process for those who ARE evil. It speaks more to the state of fallen angels who can never be redeemed and are consigned to eternal punishment.
One thing I can’t really agree with is that Ungoliant is evil. I don’t think she is evil, just as Tom Bobadil is not good. They are more forces of the world. They have a role that goes beyond good or evil. It’s only the morality of the elves, men and other beings of Arda that gives a subjective value to that. Ungoliant did not feed on the trees, because she wanted to do an evil deed. She feeds on the trees because of her hunger. It is Morgoth that devised the plan. It is Morgoth that manipulated her with lies, of satiation.
It's a very good point indeed! But what is it that makes one evil? Is it what one considers oneself, or how others see and judge them? By her own internal drive, she was indeed not evil per se, but just a being who constantly consumed all around her. But to all around her, she was evil for the destruction she caused. So where does the judgement lie indeed?
To me, Ungoliant is no more evil than a tiger, or a bear, or even a hurricane. Do we as people want to be victimized by such forces, of course not. But does that make them evil. No. Those are thoughts from a Christian cultural perspective. And as tolkien was a catholic, I can see why his storytelling makes it look like evil. But, many of his tales are based in paganism. And from that perspective, concepts of good and evil are not that black and white
Is she evil? Or is she just dark? Tom is natural due to his perfect light and satisfied nature, She is simply his opposite, perfectly natural due to her perfect darkness and unending need to be satisfied. Not evil, just hungry. We see this with her daughter shelob who went after Frodo just as quickly as she went after the Orks, and making deals with gulom and letting him go free just so she could eat, yet in her darkness we think she's evil. Again, neither are evil, simply hungry, that unsatisfying hunger can be seen as evil, but shelob and her mother are only evil due to the hunger and as such not simply evil, but pure and perfect darkness.
Ungoliant is the Opposite to Tom Bombadil. Eldritch entities that could act on their own means or change the course of history, but for various reasons refrain from influencing or destroying existence and bringing it to nothingness itself.
Is it just me that thinks it’s so weird, and just doesn’t fit that ungoliant was from “heaven”? How was she born/from/living in valinor/the undying lands? How could arguably the most evil and most dangerous being be just chilling under the valar’s noses. Either how did they possibly not know, or how did they possibly allow it? It’s one “mystery” I just find VERY hard to understand!
It might help to picture Valinor and Aman as separate: Valinor was in Aman, just like Gondor was in Middle-earth. And just like there are unknown places beyond Far Harad in the south of Middle-earth, there were unknown regions in the south of Aman, far far south of Valinor, or "heaven", in central Aman. Not all of Aman was filled with Valinor, and we often forget just how HUGE Aman was ;)
Mainly for 2 reasons: The sun was only created after she destroyed the Two Trees and fled into exile. And from there, she could not reach the sun, for it was rising and setting in the seas beyond the furthest east and Valinor respectively, which she couldn't reach from Middle-earth. And aside from that, the sun could never sate her, for it was made from a single fiery fruit from one of the Trees, and was thus implied to be less than both Trees which she consumed and which didn't sate her.
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ktet64d9O-c/mqdefault.jpg)
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](/img/tr.png)
I love that Tolkien wrote these books, creates these beings and their stories but still theorized on their origins. Like he was discovering an ancient history and sharing it with us.
The new way I’ve heard it described is that the books read as if he was the only person to ever journey to arda and when he returned tried to write down as much about it as he could remember.
* best way
Maybe it is indeed
That's literally what he was doing, creating a fictional prehistoric history for great brittain ... Like he found the red book and was only it's translator and such
Character development instead of plot focus.
I always thought that Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant were the unforseen consequence of the creation of Arda that stemmed from the discourse of the song of creation.
Out of everything he did, all the work he put in creating ridiculous amounts of detail for his books, its the parts that he didnt bother finishing that captivates the most.
Indeed.
maybe it's best that she has mysterious origins, my theory is that she was conceived frol what wasn't said.
which would explain her "unlight" instead of her darkness, she isn't morgoth creation/pervesion she was created by the spaces. nihil ex nihilo.
would also explain the fact that she consumes light, and also it makes for a analogy (I kno tolkien hated those, with Black holes, who devour even light and get bigger and bigger until whne they have consumed everything start to consume themselve
I have long suspected Ungoliant to be one of the nameless things. It seems fitting given her ancient existence as well as her affiliation to darkness despite having served no dark lord. Her feeding on light also reminds me of Gandalf's famous quote when talking about the nameless things: "Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day".
What are the nameless things, then?
@@user-yn6eu7xc5i Remember the tentacular monster that attacked the felloship at the gates of Moria?
@@yoannbelleville7763 Wasn't that called "The Watcher"? Seems like nameless things shouldn't have names :)
@@user-yn6eu7xc5i They are nameless because their specie doesn't have a name and their existence is unknown by almost everyone in middle earth. The watcher is a surname given to this specific one.
Ungoliant is by far the most terrifying creature in the lore. She's also a tragic character whose hunger will never be sated. You want to feel sorry for her but you can't, she's just a stuff of nightmares
It's unfortunate, but I see an allegory here. Perhaps Tolkien lost a friend/comrade to drug use. An addiction is a hunger that is only sated in death or in escaping the monkey on the back. If the great Tolkien was still alive I would ask him in a letter
@@dimitrilitovsk2372Good point. I had the same theory about the creation of Ungoliant.
@@dimitrilitovsk2372 not a bad thepry
have u heard of the theory of the Blakc hole allegory
a black hole is really interesting cquse it isn't dark, it is as ungoliant "unlight" darkness needs light to exist, unlight meanwhile is constantly fighting a battle with light, just like in a black hole who only devour everything and get bigger,
the hunger of the blac hole can never be satiated, and when it grows too much it crumbles and consume itself.
Geez, some of these images of Ungoliant are nothing short of terrifying.
You should see Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood by Ted Nasmith. They look like something from Hell itself!
So much NOPE!
So personally I think she is something from the void something that was there before the song made reality into solid matter that formed around her trapping her in a real place an alien place to her and it was that been trapped in the song that made her hunger, she wasn’t meant to be “”real”” so been trapped in a web that wove itself around her it broke her and because she didn’t know what this realm was or how she came to be in it she had no hope of escaping it.
I don’t think she was alone I believe she was of the same stock as the nameless things that Gandalf’s refused to talk of in the deep places of the world only she was stronger and larger so her hunger was bigger to match.
I also think that Tom was similar to ungoilant only made of something else but he was also from outside the song and as such nothing in the song really had any power over him, I think how he ended up inside the setting was that he saw it been woven together and he decided to go and explore it.
Dude!!
I have to say, I love your pronunciation!! This is the first channel that delves into Tolkien's mythos, that actually respects the source material enough to learn how to pronounce the names and places properly!!
Well done, mate! I salute you!
Of course, there are still a few names I need to hear you say to be 100% certain of you and your pronunciation, but you're already miles ahead of every other channel I've ever seen.
👍👍👍
Give a few suggestions, and you might seen those slide by in a future episode 😉
This is one of the best Ungoliant lore videos I've seen yet and though it doesn't give a definitive answer as to where Ungoliant originates, it still delves into a few possibilities as to what she could be. IMO, i think Ungoliant is the personification of the chaos that exists outside the physical realm since it's been said that Melkor first encountered her in the void in his relentless search for the secret fire. Though I'd love to see more Ungoliant lore videos, i know we will never get an answer as to what she really is and where she truly comes from, oh and i just found the channel today and I've subscribed cuz your skills of narrating Arda lore is top notch😁
Ungoliant was created when Melkor introduced discord into the theme. Ironic that Ungoliant nearly ate Melkor later.
Given that the theft of Silmarils is the point of no return for Melkor in his path of self-destruction, you could say that being consumed by a physical manifestation of his own evil and only saved by his slaves is a very appropriate transition from a god - one of the creators of the world - into a mere Dark Lord.
Almost as thought Melkor created a dark A.I. bent on destruction; little would Melkor know his own creation would treat him as something to destroy. Almost as though Tolkien was a brilliant man who could see through simple logic: a machine made to eat and only eat would never stop eating. Ungoliant is Tiamat. Morgoth used his discord and created the deep ocean, dragons, and evils beyond his might.
A follow up question (unanswerable, obviously) is did Melkor know at the time that he was creating living beings when he sang discord into the theme? Did Melkor ever know he was Ungoliant's creator or was he just as surprised by her existence when he later happened upon her?
@The Adjudicator
I am inclined in this direction as well. When Melkor sang discord into the theme it was of its own spontanious impulse to be oppositional to the order of the theme. He had no idea that slithery, multi-legged, many- eyed, horned and scaley creatures were birthing from his voice and into the shadowy edges of creation.
Melkor created ungoliant?! I read the story she grabbed him and he let a shriek so deafening it pierced the mountains and valleys. Goddam rhats evil if u can get melkor aka morgoth to cry for mommy!
Shelob is nothing more than a shadow of an ancient horror. A devourer of light
She is more bound to the spider-like form, since her father must have been a spider.
This is an excellent post. Thanks :)
Ungoliant is the best 🙃 one of my favorite middle earth mysteries
Creating from the swirling chaos along with The Watcher and the Nameless Things...and Tom Bombadil as well.
Keep em coming. These are perfect.
Of course Melkor went to Australia to find a monstruous spider!
Huh, you had some informative tidbits (not just in this video) that I had no idea of and I've seen many others channels about the same subjects... it's always fun running into new information, cheers for all your efforts!
As Tolkien applied Biblical aspects to his mythos, Unguliant was the incarnation of Gluttony. There is no better explanation, than the story of her demise...
Someone commented that Tom Bombadil was based on a children's toy from Tolkien's childhood.
Maybe Ungoliant has a similar origin, a character he worked in despite not belonging to his middle earth lore.
Excellently explained and illustrated, am since I was 8 years old a Tolkien books fan, started with "the Hobbit", and got through all his masterpieces, including his letters. Am 53 now 😂😂😂 and still dig with passion ❤Special thanks for this presentation, beautiful video and well done. Best regards from Paris, France 👍🌹 Razvan
Ungoliant vs Lolth: who wins?
It would be an amazing intertwining of stories in movie form.
I like thinking Ungoliant is made up of the compiled, minuscule amounts of the Void that each ainur and maiar unwittingly brought into Arda when they passed from The Timeless Halls through the Void. Think of going to the beach, then washing and drying off, yet always unknowingly bringing home a bit of sand with you. If each ainur and maiar did that, there would be quite a pile of sand/Void -- that's Ungoliant.
interesting theory, shame Tolkien isn't here, cause at this point I think he didn't have any idea
@@valentinlageot4101 perhaps. He's certainly given us food for thought.
@@valentinomiller6251 I think another should continue the work and studies"of the professor" on that world I swear. I know Amazon did a shitty job and in fact It's not what I want to do, but somebody will have to act like another professor studying middle earth and recounting the takes of the past.
cause I think at this point Middle earth isn't just a story, it is history. and someone should complete that history
@@valentinlageot4101 I once thought that too, but unsure I want it touched. I wouldn't want the vibe, writing style to change. For instance, in some parts of the Sil, I can tell it wasn't Tolkien himself, but his son, Christopher, who filled in the blanks. The tone was different. I wouldn't want that. I'd rather leave it unfinished as-is.
@@valentinomiller6251 I have hopes that someone pick up those books and say: "I'mgonna finish the work of the professor an I'll do it with as much passion and competency as him"
it's not to say that you have to be better than tolkien, but you should/someone atleast who wants to do it should strive to be and understand his thought process or think like him.
Great video, great voice and story-telling skills!
I would find the last explanation the most likely. That she was born from the discord of the music of the Ainur caused by Melkor. A primordial being which was not part of anyones original plan. But that would also mean, that in an ironic and indirect way, she owes her miserable existence to Melkors meddling with creation itself at the beginning.
I never understand all this theories. She was either one of very poverful maiar or some super minor valar. It is clearly implied in Silmarillion. In Tolkien world there is no any intelligent creatures beyond spirits (or there descedants), elves, humans and dwarfes
this was fantastic man, good job all the way through. keep going
Ungoliant is a lovecraftian like entity in middle earth. Tolkien suggests at others in the books.
Which book what does it say
@@LiverpoolFCtalk i forget the specifics buts its in lotr. When gandalf fights the ballrog after falling in the depths. Something about his enemy being his only hope in the face of unknown horrors.
@@ngcastronerd4791 Those were the Nameless Things in the deepest depths. Possibly more creatures created by Melkor's dischord variation.
@@MarKous47 Yep, I like to think that the Nameless Ones were created by the discord clashing with the melody whereas Ungoliant was originally a maiar that served morgorth, became greedy and took off on her own in search of power, eventually taking the physical form of the greed she represented.
Weren't Tolkien and Lovecraft both good friends?
Great video. Keep it up!
Everyone asks what/who is Ungoliant, but no one asks how is Ungoliant :(
My first visit here dear Sir and a pleasant one, to be sure.
I shall take opportunity to view your other offerings and I suspect a Subscription to your Channel is close on the horizon.
Thanks very much for your efforts, excellent narrative.
p.s. It's pretty incredible to grasp, that Tolkien's writings are so powerful, that even a character whose entire story can be captured on a single page of text, can provide sufficient fuel for an entire Thesis on the "physicality of evil", for example. The man was so far beyond typical authorship, it's almost embarrassing to others of the profession.
Maybe Ungo is down in the deep places feeding on the nameless ones
Truly the most terrifying creature in Middle Earth...well done.
I believe in the second origin version.. the Valar hinted something else by their words and the fact she could never satisfy her hunger...i dont believe Ungoliant was part of their music gone wrong..more like Ungoliant is a manifestation of the void outside Arda , a being of primodrial darkness that predates all creation , including the Ainur.
I like the subjects of the videos on this channel! Subbed, good luck with it bro!
Where was the music for this produced? Its terrifying.
Given that all Ainur are immortal beings (I assume there isn't really even the concept of "death" among them, because death is only something that happens to physical bodies, not to spiritual beings), it's hard to imagine that Ungoliant is dead. Maybe her physical body died, but not she herself. And if she still exists that means she can take a new corporeal form at any time.
Well done!! A very impressive video!
I take it that Tolkien didn’t like spiders.
He always insisted he didn't have a problem with them. He first wrote giant spiders into The Hobbit because one of his sons was afraid of them. That said, as a small child in South Africa he was bitten by a spider and nearly died, so maybe he was less okay with them than he let on.
@@FunSizeSpamberguesa Giant evil spiders are in half of fantasy. And, btw in Hobbit spiders belonged to elves if I'm not mistaken
@@sychuan3729 They are indeed in half of fantasy, and Tolkien is the main reason why. He might not have wholly invented the genre, but he invented a lot of the tropes used in modern fantasy. The spiders in the Hobbit didn't belong to the Elves, though -- they were an invasive species, that became an infestation when the Greenwood made the shift into Mirkwood thanks to Sauron taking up residence right next door.
Spiders and snakes are natural enemies of mammals, innate fear. Take it from an Iowan; Australia may have most of the venomous animals, only in Iowa will all four live in your house. Brown Recluse, Black Widow, Prairie Rattler and Copperhead. All four can live in your boots outside while you let them dry. In town.
I thik she was a being of outer influence that was influenced by Melkor and later choose to come down to Arda to fulfill her hunger for more: more power, more influence and more darkness. She is a void that will never be full because she is exactly that - a maw without end. That she could overpower Melkor is the more impressive feat. He was the strongest being on Arda and she was about to eat him? Thats just wild.
Tolkien's original postulation that Ungoliant was an Ainu (Maia) made far more sense for reasons having to do with the nature of free will and creation in Tolkien's lore (though it would have made for sense for Ungoliant to be a full-on Vala given her ability to overpower Melkor). The issue with Tolkien's second suggested origin story for her is that she was a creature who seemed to possess free will. Tolkien made it clear that, although Vala could create life, only Eru could create life from nothing imbued with free will. All other races of non-Ainu evil creatures with some sense of personal agency (orcs, dragons) started out as different creatures, of which their orc, dragon, (etc.) incarnations were mere corruptions, which Melkor (and later Sauron) bred to make more of them.
didn't aulé create the dwarf from nothing? I always thought that it was just forbidden for them to create life rather than they couldn,'t even though the only valar who was able create was aule.
When Aulé created the dwarves, they initially could only act when Aulé willed them to act. They were basically puppets. Eru then admonished Aulé for creating new life without asking for permission. Aulé subsequently prepared to destroy the dwarves. Before he could bring down his hammer, however, the dwarves pleaded for their lives. Eru then told Aulé that He had imbued them with the Flame Imperishable (the gift of free will). Afterwards, Eru told Aulé that he could release them into the world, but only after Eru had created and awakened the elves. There is thus not the same issue with creative power and free will that there is with Ungoliant and Tolkien’s second origin story for her.
Anyone else feel like Ungoliant was the inspriation for Lloth in D&D?
Absolutely spine tingling & chilling! A New Fear Unlock!
She is Wirilomë the Gloomweaver. She was intended to be Melkor's bride in the Timeless Halls before the Ainulindale. They broke up when Melkor wanted Elbereth (Varda) for himself, but got rejected. After the First War, she enters Ea as Moru, Spirit of Primordial Night. She later assumes monstrous spider form and becomes Ungoliant.
Excellent video!!!
maybe she is the embodiment of hunger itself
You got a great accent for these type of videos, keep it up.
I do not know the point of origin for the speculation I heard regarding the origins of Ungoliant, but it follows in the tradition of the second explanation Tolkien gave. The Discords of Melkor produced "unintended consequences" for Ea, among which was the awakening of "The Spirit of the Void" - a reactionary incarnation of chaos triggered by the intrusion of substance and form into that primordial void - which Melkor then encountered in his search for the Flame Imperishable. He then appealed to this spirit to join his host in his bid to rule Arda, which she greedily accepted, but soon after descending into the world, she realized that her own nature, when physically instantiated, caused her to hunger ravenously and continuously. She also became aware that her physical body could be destroyed which, because she was not born of the Flame Imperishable as the Ainur were, would result in her actual unmaking (the annihilation of her being). When the full weight of her predicament had dawned on her, she forsook Melkor's service to pursue her own survival strategy.
Comparing Ungoliant to Tom Bombadil is just about perfect. Dafuq are either of them? Where and how and what?
For many years, people have debated the true nature of this entity. Some believe it embodies darkness, an elemental force in the Tolkien universe. However, it is widely accepted that light cannot exist without darkness, just as warmth cannot live without cold, and life cannot exist without death. In my opinion, this entity represents one aspect of that duality that even Melkor, with all his power and wisdom, could not control or understand.
Ungoliant and the Watcher are two of the nameless things, existing in Arda before the Valar entered.
I thought this video was going to speculate more about Ungoliant rather than retell a familiar story.
I'd like to think that she resides in the Dark Lands which are dark because of her and she feeds off the light from the Land of the Sun to the east.
Sounds like pennywise could be a spawn of ungoliath
Or possibly something a lot like her.
Shelob
I'm sure that in "Unfinished tales" Or "Lost tales" there is something along the lines of Melkor meeting her in the outer void (before the creation song) whilst he was searching for "The Flame Imperishable" and that it was implied that she was a (THE?) spirit of darkness (like an opposite of Eru being the lord of light) and suggestion that she corrupted him rather than the other way around. It is decades since i read these books so i may have extrapolated a lot from a little but that is always in my mind when she is mentioned.
I was also certain that she was one of the spirits from the outer void that descended on arda.
She was either one of very poverful maiar or some super minor valar. It is clearly implied in Silmarillion. I never understand all this theories. In Tolkien world there is no any intelligent creatures beyond spirits (or there descedants), elves, humans and dwarfes
No there isn't. I read the Unfinished Tales from cover to cover until the book wore out when I was younger and there is no mention of Ungoliant worth mentioning in that text.
@@sychuan3729 It isn't at all implied in The Silmarillion what Ungoliant is aside from she had a spider-shape, she consumed all, that she was forever hunger, and ended up likely consuming herself, but not before siring Shelob.
@@thecollector6746 well, I decided to open Sillmarillion "some have said that in ages long before she descended from the
darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the
Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he
corrupted to his service". So it is clearly implied that she was one of spirits who came with Melkor to Arda. Even without this, Tolkien world is very clear: there is no any other intelligent creatures except created by Illuvatar directly (spirits, elves, humans) or indirictly (dwarfes). All others are either descendants or some modification of this four. Ungoliant isn't elf, dwarf, human so she spirit.
She is like the opposite of the more constructive Goliant …
I like to believe Ungoliant still lives.
I am Ungoliant. I am a Tarantula. I met with Aragorn who filled me with power. Then Melchior came. I needed much food which Esme provided. I am an Einar born to Ulmo beneath the sea as Arabella.
Ok i'm sorry but that's nonsense.
She sounds like a Nameless One to me.
So basically she made the best place to take a nap
Where Light is, there must be darkness. I would spekulate that she was some kind of byproduct in the creation of Illuvatar, since everything he created was meant to be good and beautiful, so everything (or almost) everything bad and dark was concentrated into her.
When the world sees a narcissistic leader narcissist defanged and declawed, sometimes it’s best not to study too much into it lest you yourself get pulled into the evil.
Saruman learned that the hard way.
I think she ended before Shelob, since the Silmarillion told she eventually devoured herself, in past-tense. And unlike Maiar or Valar, she never re-emerged, so I suspect she was one of the lesser beings, lesser than Maiar.
It could be a primordial creature embodied some notions. I've always thought Tom Bombadil as some sort of an elemantal spirit. Ungoliath may be the embodiment of greed
I’m a simple woman. I see a video about the spiders of Arda, and I click.
Where did you find the sound effects for 3:19 ?
Damn this a good vid
Was Malkor more powerful than Ungoliant?
No
My theory is that she was an unintentional Valar of Darkness. Eru Illuvitar didnt mean to make her, she almost made herself at the same time the other Valar were being created and hid from his sight.
So she is basically a super massive blackhole at the center of every galaxy.
🔥🔥🔥
If ungoliant had a brood, one cannot help but ask, who or what, mated with her?
Strange, that's a mystery.
An Archetype. Always hungry. Everything will never be enough.
Reminds me of my ex wife. 😥
This hunger will never die.
Okay, so Balrogs are corrupted Maiar, right? What were the werewolves? The vampires? What was the watcher in the lake? The living stone guardians of minas morgul? The nameless things at the roots of Moria? The fell beasts the Nazgul rode? And the Barrow wraiths, where in the song were they created? For that matter, when were the Eagles created and where would they go when they died? and Who and what were Tom Bombadil and Goldberry? Was the old forest really just Huorns? so many questions.
Oh, and the Storm Giants from the Hobbit? and how did the Beornings get the ability to turn into bears? Is that somehow related tot he Werewolves? and Huan?
The Werewolves were created by sauron by imprisoning evil spirits inside of wolves, creating the monstrous creatures. I don't know about the vampires but it's possible the watcher in the water was a very very non-powerful nameless thing. I'm not sure about the stone guardians, the nameless things were possibly fallen maiar, or the same species of ungoliant. The fell beasts were dragon like creatures created by sauron so the nazgul rode them, but he couldn't make it so they breathed fire. I'm not sure about the barrow wraiths, but the eagles did not have fea (souls) they were controlled by manwe, they didn't have free will, so when they got killed they didn't go anywhere. Tom bombadil and goldberry are mysterious characters and we are forced to speculate. The old forest was regular tree's posible ent's, and huorns.
Here's why I love the great dark spider. She's unexplained, and a good author knows that sometimes a mystery is more interesting than a concrete answer
She sounds like she would look like one of the Quelaag spider sisters from Dark Souls.
Ungoliant was a monster from outer space.
Beyond that, I can't tell you what she was, but I can tell you that she wasn't goliant.
the bug wing flutter sound effects were wholly unnecessary since this is a video about a creature with no wings and also it set off my misophonia
Melkor, starting a war over 3 silly jewels, oh well..
Ungoliant is the mother of all those vile creatures who continuously call about your vehicle's extended warranty. And Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the Bureau of Consumer Protection who, despite having tremendous power, refuses to get involved in the affairs of regular folk. I'm pretty sure that's exactly how Tolkien envisioned them.
As for what became of Ungoliant, the legends say that a very cunning elven king brought her some Taco Bell, disguised as a silmaril. And Ungoliant, in her hunger, devoured it without thought, only to have her hunger utterly betrayed and destroyed by a gastrointestinal terror beyond even her darkest imagination. After that, she was never able to eat solid food again, and eventually withered away, both from hunger and chronic diarrhea.
Square Cube Law: "Am I a joke to you Tolkien?"
Dude, after sucking dry two highly magical trees that gave light to all the world, I think she could bend even gravity to her will haha
Isn't Eru Iluvatar Tom Bombadill?
probably yes
Maybe not.
No, he's not.
Most definitely yes?
perhaps Bombadil was Eru's first attempt at creating life. But gave him power or invulnerability to power a bit too close too his own seemingly infinite power. This would make Tom Eldest as he says when asked who he is. Eru then saw that harmonious coexistence was not likely if everyone had Tom's power. So, the Elven Pantheon was developed, leaving Tom separate. Eru then seeing Tom as his first creation, left him to himself only limiting the size of the domain in which he has power. an outside observer as it were to Middle Earth. ok, a lot of conjecture here, but I like the mystery of his identity. I'm probably not the first to get this idea, but none of the stuff I watched about this contained this exact idea.
9:49 "from beyond arda" you skipped right off this part, it means she wasn't created by eru, maybe
The Spider of darkness and chaos almost ate Satan. Think about that.
Melkor isn’t the source of all evil in Tolkien’s world since Eru Iluvatar made Melkor, Sauron, and other Ainur who became Balrogs.
I mean Tolkien was a very devout Catholic. Christianity doesn't really address the problem with evil like it's progenitor.
@@xx_noone_xx, How well does any mythology address “evil” and its sources?
@@xx_noone_xx Christianity clearly states sin [evil] originated in the pride of Satan. It's not a secret.
Evil is not a thing in itself in Judeo-Christianity like it is in LOTR. Yahweh decides what is good and what is evil and humans have free will to obey/disobey. Yahweh has said that doing work on the sabbath is against his command (for instance). It may not make sense to a person the reason why but Yahweh decides. In ancient Judaism there were works a person who transgresses must perform (rituals, animal sacrifices, etc) to cover the sin. In Christianity it is Jesus's work on the cross and one's faith in that which covers sin. But in LOTR certain creatures ARE evil and there is no redemptive process. Its interesting that for as much of a Catholic that Tolkein was, his messaging in LOTR was that there is no redemptive process for those who ARE evil. It speaks more to the state of fallen angels who can never be redeemed and are consigned to eternal punishment.
Hey Amazon! Ungoliant origin story. Let’s both sides this thing!
Morgoth’s ex girlfriend
LOL
we can say the dysfunctional family is Morgoth+Ungoliant = Shelob?
One thing I can’t really agree with is that Ungoliant is evil. I don’t think she is evil, just as Tom Bobadil is not good. They are more forces of the world. They have a role that goes beyond good or evil. It’s only the morality of the elves, men and other beings of Arda that gives a subjective value to that. Ungoliant did not feed on the trees, because she wanted to do an evil deed. She feeds on the trees because of her hunger. It is Morgoth that devised the plan. It is Morgoth that manipulated her with lies, of satiation.
It's a very good point indeed! But what is it that makes one evil? Is it what one considers oneself, or how others see and judge them?
By her own internal drive, she was indeed not evil per se, but just a being who constantly consumed all around her. But to all around her, she was evil for the destruction she caused. So where does the judgement lie indeed?
To me, Ungoliant is no more evil than a tiger, or a bear, or even a hurricane. Do we as people want to be victimized by such forces, of course not. But does that make them evil. No. Those are thoughts from a Christian cultural perspective. And as tolkien was a catholic, I can see why his storytelling makes it look like evil. But, many of his tales are based in paganism. And from that perspective, concepts of good and evil are not that black and white
Is she evil? Or is she just dark? Tom is natural due to his perfect light and satisfied nature, She is simply his opposite, perfectly natural due to her perfect darkness and unending need to be satisfied. Not evil, just hungry.
We see this with her daughter shelob who went after Frodo just as quickly as she went after the Orks, and making deals with gulom and letting him go free just so she could eat, yet in her darkness we think she's evil. Again, neither are evil, simply hungry, that unsatisfying hunger can be seen as evil, but shelob and her mother are only evil due to the hunger and as such not simply evil, but pure and perfect darkness.
My guess is she was made by the discourse of the music.
Ungoliant is the Opposite to Tom Bombadil. Eldritch entities that could act on their own means or change the course of history, but for various reasons refrain from influencing or destroying existence and bringing it to nothingness itself.
She got defeated by Sam will never forget that.
That was Shelob, one Ungoliant's daughters. Even then, Shelob didn't actually die, she just ran away.
Probably a beiing like Tom Bombadil or the nameless things under Moria
Is it just me that thinks it’s so weird, and just doesn’t fit that ungoliant was from “heaven”? How was she born/from/living in valinor/the undying lands? How could arguably the most evil and most dangerous being be just chilling under the valar’s noses. Either how did they possibly not know, or how did they possibly allow it? It’s one “mystery” I just find VERY hard to understand!
It might help to picture Valinor and Aman as separate:
Valinor was in Aman, just like Gondor was in Middle-earth. And just like there are unknown places beyond Far Harad in the south of Middle-earth, there were unknown regions in the south of Aman, far far south of Valinor, or "heaven", in central Aman.
Not all of Aman was filled with Valinor, and we often forget just how HUGE Aman was ;)
Read for you by count Dracula
I dont think Shelob is confirmed as dead
Are the creepy, skittering, spider sounds really necessary?🥴
I know her daughter, Shelob was a baddie in Shadow of War. Lore breaking? Yeah, probably. But a baddie is a baddie.
Lol. Big tiddy goth girl spider.
The two trees didn't illuminate the world. Just Valinor.
A spider. Till next time!
Wonder why she doesn't just devour the sun to sate her hunger
Mainly for 2 reasons:
The sun was only created after she destroyed the Two Trees and fled into exile. And from there, she could not reach the sun, for it was rising and setting in the seas beyond the furthest east and Valinor respectively, which she couldn't reach from Middle-earth.
And aside from that, the sun could never sate her, for it was made from a single fiery fruit from one of the Trees, and was thus implied to be less than both Trees which she consumed and which didn't sate her.