Is Christmas Pagan? Does the Bible require you to make amends with those you've wronged in order to be saved? Are you an atheist in West Virginia? Comment below!
"people who are more interested in honest discussion ... than the WWE format crowd" TBH, a steel chair *would* do more to convince some of the people you talk to than calm, rational words, Matt.
My highly religious ex-mother-in-law did call me after her son abandoned his 2nd wife and child (I was the first wife) and she asked me for forgiveness for her saying awful things about me in the past. She had finally realized that I was not the horrible person, her son was. LOL I told her that since I hadn't ever heard what she had said, it mattered not to me what was said. I really didn't care what she thought about me. But I nevertheless told her not to worry about it. At the time, I wasn't yet an atheist and thought it was still unusual that she would try and make amends.
@@warren52nz It's really unusual that a christian feels it necessary to make direct amends with the person they hurt. They usually just talk to themselves (pray) and are all good after that.
@@rhondah1587 They are probably no worse than non-believers in that respect. While Christians might be more open to criticism of hypocrisy in failing to own up and make amens to those they have wronged ,I can't say non-believers are any better. Most people hope their transgressions are forgotten and attempt move on without being brave enough to face up to them.
@rhondah1587 I'm gonna guess you were actually the problem that's why you showed up here. The mother simply had a falling out with her son and wanted to find a teammate, what better person to look for verification from than the person who dislikes the person you currently dislike. All I'm saying is, your not convincing me by typing a story on a UA-cam comment section. Also, being an atheist isn't a "better" position than a religious one incase you thought it was, this is coming from an atheist.
Jesus knocks at the door. I answer "yes" Jesus says "let me in" I answer "why Jesus?" Jesus replies "so i can save you" I ask "from what?" Jesus answers "from what im going to do to you if you dont let me in" Sounds like good news right everyone?
Yeah but what a Christian would say to this is that Jesus is trying to save you from what you're doing to yourself. The gaslighting game is strong with Christianity.
it is a joke that says nothing profound. religion is many things, all bad. you cannot make good philosophy out of it, using such jokes. such joke is not even anti-religion. it helps make the bad things forgotten, so you can turn back to the same religious shit
@@SergiuCosminViorel Maybe reread the OP after a cup of strong coffee. It's not simply a joke, it's a precise criticism about a core tenant of Christianity.
Synchretism is a fundamental cultural process. Christmas is Christian in the same way that Chop Suey is American, Ginger Beef is Canadian and Chicken Tikka Masala is British. The hamburger and the frankfurter reveal their origins in their names (from Hamburg and Frankfurt), but they are quintessentially American --- though the whole world eats them now. I can remember when the English were confused by the idea of Halloween. Now they celebrate it enthusiastically. But North America originally got it from the Scots, amplifying the original turnip jack'o'lantern into a pumpkin. Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving in a different month from Americans, but the turkey and cranberries are the same --- the tourtiere, however, is their own. Trying to fight cultural synchretism, or denouncing it, is a fool's errand.
You could argue that the entire English language is syncretism in action. We loan so many words that to credit each culture with their contributions would be taxing to say the least. What I find is troubling are those that insist that each culture remain perfectly distinct. That would be a very boring world to live in, and would do a disservice to the many thousands of years of trading nations - it wasn't just goods that people traded of course! Cultures that are open to malleability, and those that take on other aspects of cultures are richer for it. I daresay that even the most fervent Christians are altogether appreciative of the certain pagan traditions that have now been syncretised in to their traditions.
It is interesting that your angle mirrors experiences I have had. On each occasion, I have listened and heard the theist say, "I was mean to so-and-so and felt bad, so I prayed and felt much better." Or such. None said approached the person they had affronted in order to apologise.
Syncretism is the rule in religion and culture in general. The church embraced polytheism through the trinity and the hundreds of saints. Major holidays absorbed local themes and characters all over. The only way to survive and flourish.
I was raised Catholic and the religion’s ability to incorporate aspects from different cultures was seen as a positive element. In fact, it made it “universal”, which is what “Catholic” means. As for “Easter”, can’t help seeing a focusing on English language traditions. I am Portuguese, “Easter” is “Páscoa”, taken from “Passover”, and has no etymological connection to “Isthar”. Victorian origin visuals do abound here but Christmas- “Natal”, derived from “Birth”- has a lot of traditions that predate the 19th century, by far, and are still in place. Nativity scenes are huge, to the point you seen them all over town, put up by the town. There are even museums of nativity scenes, with some cribs dating from Medieval days. Same goes for the food, with cod fish being a staple all over the country (which does happen all year round but there is an extra focus on Christmas) along with even older sweets, including “bolo rei”.
I imagine that when Constantine made the Roman empire Christian, Saturnalia rolled around and every one still did their usual part. The church leaders may have been like, fine you can party, but I don't want to here about this Saturn guy.
Does anyone know of organizations in the Greensboro NC area, similar to those that were mentioned in the video? I’m leaving Madison WI and will be losing my community here, but have had a difficult time finding similar organizations as I prepare to move south. It’s difficult having to start all over again :(
Dan McClellan addresses this (he's a Biblical scholar). Eggs and rabbits were used by Christians, not for fertility, but because the rabbit represented parthenogenesis, and eggs were for breaking the fast of Lent.
In other words, cloning is A OK for Christians? Parthogenesis is the egg becoming fertile asexually. The resulting child is a clone of the parent. And rabbits don’t reproduce parthogenetically in nature. So, McClellan is wrong. Rabbits represented fertility or fecundity. Rabbits represent “go forth and multiply” to Christians. Rabbits are famous for doing exactly that.
Rabbits can get pregnant while carrying a litter, which gave the *appearance* of parthenogenesis. They're associated with Mary in Christian art for this reason, not because they were fertility symbols stolen from pagans.
Its similar to saturnalia. The celebrations ended december 24th.amd it wqs custom to decorate trees that you had on your property and some would take branches of ever green trees and decorate tgem in their homes. This was a celebration of the solstice so it was dedicated to zeus and Demeter the godes of the harvest. These traditions existwd before jesus and as Jerusalem was under roman rule at the time its not hard to see that the two cultures mixed to create what is now Christmas.
I think people tend to forget the idea of 'folk' tradition in the 'is Christmas pagan or Christian?' question. People develop customs that they apply to the normative religion of their society. Most practises performed during times of Christian festivities don't have a Biblical grounding, so in a real sense they are not 'Christian'. That doesn't necessarily mean they are pagan. It means they are 'folk' traditions that are likely to have 'parasited' upon Christianity in the same way that they probably would have 'parasited' on paganism.
Thank you for this comment. My degree is in comparative religion and peoples lack of nuance on this subject is infuriating for me. Thank you for recognizing nuance. Even the festivities that survive from the polytheistic European past have lost their original polytheistic context and meaning whatever it may have been (we don't actually know a lot because of paucity of primary sources) because of Christianization, and people tend to forget that as well. It's like Matt said, for a lot of people it's about scoring clout not accuracy
I don’t know what you mean by ‘not Christian’. This reminds me of how fundamentalists think - it’s utterly absurd. The idea that traditions associated with Christmas might ‘not be Christian’ is laughable. It doesn’t really matter if their origins are pre-Christian, they have become Christian traditions. They can still be practiced outside of Christianity, but they can’t be ‘not Christian’ when practiced by Christians in conjunction with Christmas. It’s just such an absurd idea.
I just noticed you said these practices don’t have “a biblical grounding” - this is literally just fundamentalism. It’s ridiculous enough when actual fundamentalist Christians use these kinds of arguments about what traditions are & aren’t permitted - but you’re presumably not one, so…what’s your excuse?
@@Jd-808 odd that you start by admitting that you don't know what I mean - then proceed to tell me what I mean. You're arguing against a strawman here, and it seems that you've painted yourself into a weird corner. it sounds very much like you just defined anything a Christian does as 'Christian practice'. OK, cool, I agree with you that slavery is a Christian practice - I mean that's in the Bible, and laid out in detail - but I'm not sure many Christians would regard masturbation as typically a way of spotting a follower of Jesus...though given Paul's attitude towards marriage and children, maybe I'm wrong there.
Hey there Matt this is Chris. Please pardon the repetition. I've already commented on your Matt Dillahunty vs. Michael Egnor debate review "Part 1". On the chance you don't come across that comment, I'm leaving it again. I searched high and low for "Part 2" and I just can't seem to locate it. If in fact it's out there somewhere, would you please be kind enough as to send me a link. I would really love to hear your thoughts! Thank you and happy New Year. Sincerely Christopher Engel
I see. So if I understand this all correctly, then (re - salvation n sin) is: _If christianity is true, then Hitler is in heaven right now, while Anne Frank is burning in hell. Hitler was a Roman catholic and therefore 'saved,' while Anne Frank was an unrepentant Jew and therefore damned to hell._ That's one hell of an ad for the Christian church: "Come join us in Heaven. Meet Hitler and Jesus and laugh with us as we throw rocks at Anne Frank as she burns in hell!" PS: For some reason, the notion of Christianity represented above reminded me of the politics of the Cardassian Union, before it joined the Dominion. When Captain Picard was being tortured by Gul David Warner and he still brought his daughter to work, Picard wondered why he would expose his daughter to such things. Gul Evek (?) told Picard that Cardassian children are taught that enemies of Cardassia deserve their fate. Picard undermined the sentiment by teaching Gul whoever that "When children are taught to devalue life, they can devalue any life. Even that of their parents!" Or something to that effect. Rather than acknowledge Picard's enlightenment, Gul-Dudeface instead resumed the counting-lights torture...
Inclusion of eggs into Easter-tradition most likely came from Lent. People did not eat eggs during Lent, but chickens don't stop laying them in honor of religious practices. So when Easter comes about there's surplus eggs that need to be eaten before they spoil.
Religion For Breakfast has a cool video about the origin of the Xmas tree. Apparently it is likely first recorded in the Germanic-speaking Alsatian region of France/Germany as a Christian medieval tradition of putting a decoratorated fir tree up in the hovel on Xmas day. (There was an law AGAINST it so it must have happened). And nothing, pagan or otherwise, before that.
Dear Matt (and other people, I guess) re 7:33 ish Though I understand how hard it might be to imagine the concept of snow in the middle east, it actually does happen. Frequently! So "No," the idea of snow in Jerusalem is not a foreign concept. It would be something that the people of Judea as well as the surrounding lands would be entirely familiar with. It's not as common as snow in the more northern climates, but neither is it rare, nor is it entirely absent, as is snow in more southerly climates.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day to make your voice to be heard on high. Atheists do not fast, but their goal is always strife and debate and to smite with the fist of wickedness.
Matt, great job. Until you're out and learn a bit, I don't think you, (anyone) realizes how odd or bad some stuff sounds. It seems to be the old, feels over reals. Example, everytime I see a 'miracle, baby saved by prayer in hospital!' Or similar story, and see all the comments praising God, blah, blah. I can't stop from thinking, 'yeah, this one was supposedly saved, what about the thousands that died everywhere in that same day, from malnutrition or diarrhea?' And it is not a miracle for me. Just luck. 👍💙💙💙🥰✌
I think the discussion about Christmas being pagan makes no sense. The Christians celebrate a Christian holiday anyway. So the bottom line is, unless one actually believes in an all-powerful God, what meaning each individual puts into it. If there is an omnipotent God, then it is God who decides. I guess there is no God, so it's up to each individual.
What a great list. How do you get on board of directors; That hard work? *nothing pagan about christmas* Ok, fine. But why you herald a tree 🌲 (as a holidays symbol) 2 a man that’s been _crucified_ ☦️ along with a couple of thieves, I bet he’d be thrilled 😁.
I honestly can't remember anyone claiming all Christian holidays are all co-opted pagan traditions. Fairly sure people posting such memes are trying to convey the idea of syncretism, even if they haven't actually come across that term yet.
I’ve seen a bunch in the ‘pagan community’. Everything from Easter being connected to Ishtar or Astera/Eostre to solstice being co-opted by the xians. Some go in depth, and rather than acknowledging syncretism attributed such traditions were stolen or written over purposefully.
The Bible *appears* to make a reference to something that might be considered a Christmas Tree, in Jeremiah 10. "Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." That sounds an awful lot like bringing a tree into your home or village and decorating it... [shrug] so at the very least, Jews and early Christians were aware of such practices.
I will make amends, the same day god makes amends with mankind. He has a lot to apologize for. Perhaps I am asking too much of a being that only exists in the twisted fantasies of the religious.
I call it pagan because theres no historically religious reasons for it. The traditions are more cultural than religious but they're still not historically part of the theology
The amount of outrage people felt towards Matt for walking out on a debate is disgusting. Debates should be about the information not about the interlocutor. Just goes to show internet blood sports don't care about facts.
Well, Matt, thank you but I have good news and bad. The good news is after years of watching these debates, reading, questioning, etc. I get it. The theists only have philisophical arguments and "explanations". Not proof as you have described and I agree with. That is what I am waiting for them to present and their evidence is " isn't anything possible? Therefore, God?" Plus guilt and other emotions that make us want to feel safe. The bad news: not going to watch anymore of these debates. So might unsub, not because I don't like you but it is no longer relevent. Thank you for that. Should have listened to my Zen teacher ( yeah a real one ). I asked him why he won't engage with the Jehovah W that came to the door one day. Here's a guy who has about seven degrees in humanities, philosophy,etc and he says not worth it. Peace brother.
I think the pagan christmas argument can be restated from "Christmas is a pagan tradition" (which would never be entirely true, because celebrating the birth of Christ still is part of Christmas, at least where I come from) to instead tell people that they are "celebrating pagan traditions" when celebrating Christmas, because the celebration consists of many different traditions, some of which can be identified as being of pagan origin.
@@Jd-808 Celebrating pagan traditions and celebrating Christmas are not mutually exclusive if Christmas features pagan traditions. And the latter is hard to argue against.
@@kappascopezz5122 A) That’s exactly _my_ point. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Which is to say, traditions aren’t ‘not Christian’ just because they had pagan origins. And Christians can’t be ‘celebrating’ something they are not even aware they’re celebrating. That’s absurd. B) In actual scholarship, the reverse is true. It’s very difficult to make a case that similarities between traditions are genetic.
@@Jd-808 The only thing you said in your comment was that celebrating Christmas somehow implies that you can't be celebrating pagan traditions, and I don't see how that's different from assuming that they are mutually exclusive. It's very strange to then go on to argue that them *not* being mutually exclusive was your actual point. Christians are very much celebrating the traditions, regardless of whether they're aware of whether said traditions are pagan or not. And I agree that it's difficult to show that the traditions really do originate from somewhere else, but that's also a different statement from the much harder to verify claim that they were *not* somehow inspired.
@@kappascopezz5122 No, people cannot celebrate something without…celebrating it. And certainly not without even knowing about the thing they’re supposedly celebrating. This is equivalent to someone telling you that if you observe Christmas in any way, you are celebrating the birth of Christ. Are you doing that, or are you celebrating a cultural holiday? Guess what, other people don’t get to decide for you. Christmas originated as a Christian day of observance for the birth of Christ, but it’s commonly celebrated secularly as well. It isn’t one OR the other. And I have no idea what you mean about traditions not ‘being inspired’. Where do you think traditions come from? Divine command? The Bible? That isn’t how people work.
Thank the Lord i don't believe in! No, let's thank, Matt instead! No more modern day debates. A company as a moderator and they refuse to moderate and out you to annoy you to exhaustion and make money off it. Should sue them to take down the videos as they didnt hold ip their end of the deal. To fucking moderate correctly.
Re - Christmas not being a Pagan holiday. See, I'd find this easier to believe, if - (A) There wasn't a rich, documented history of Winter Solstice celebrations. (B) If winter solstice wasn't around the week of 20th of December. (C) The Roman holiday of Bacchanalia didn't exist and wasn't thoroughly documented. (D) The later Roman holiday of Saturnalia didn't exist and wasn't held at the same time as Christmas later came to be celebrated. (E) The Roman Empire didn't later adopt Christianity while still maintaining a LARGE population of people who were used to the Roman customs and holidays, both of which are well documented. It seems feasible, then, that when the Roman world became ostensibly Christian, that the enormous populace who lived under nominal Roman rule (or Byzantine, as the case may be) continued to celebrate Saturnalia, even after becoming a 'Christian nation' and that to make the holiday acceptable to the Gods, the priests and rulers called it "Christmas" and tried to limit its celebration of all things Pagan, while emphasising whatever things Christian they thought important. As far as I'm aware, the above IS the case and hearing Matt say "Christmas isn't a holiday stolen from the Pagans," isn't enough to convince me otherwise. I know too much about Roman history to accept such a flimsy case. If Matt's case is true, then I'd need a LOT more than this unsubstantiated claim.
Christmas is a highjacked pagan new year/renewal festival. If Jesus existed, he was born in September - 22nd Dec is the Winter Solstice, but xmas has drifted to the 25th due to various people fiddling with the calendar. Yes, a tree, holly, yule logs etc are pagan. Just as Easter in a highjacked new life pagan festival.
You've got some nerve talking about dishonest debaters. I called in to your bullshit podcast you had and you immediately just cut me off, yelled obscenities, didn't allow me to talk and straw manned me
Religion is not dying, it’s evolved into science. If religion as it claims, for the good of people, it will realize science as it’s evolution, which it certainly is, so it’s followers can find meaning and have somewhere to go.
@@djl2457 Is religion for the good of people? If so - Religion is a king who initially introduced meanings to scaffold a moral and controllable system to build bigger communities by revealing what it called the truth to unite people in a goal. Form of government. Now refusing to retire for its offspring, the science, with the same aim but as a verifiable truth, to be king. I’m afraid the king is losing his spiritual legitimacy not evolving and trapped by its imposed limitation of growth to be equal to levels that its restricting the evolution of its followers to be, Is now encountering defection to science; not realizing everything evolves and if religion dies, it’s a sequence of nature that science wouldn’t exist without it, and it has been created to seek answers so to replace it. Religion’s evolution into science is the inevitability of spiritual science. We are spiritual with or without religion
@@djl2457 My assumption of you reading intending to comprehend was an underestimation of your overestimation of your comprehension and the value of things you don’t comprehend to others. I understand. I see you. Peace
"people who are more interested in honest discussion ... than the WWE format crowd"
TBH, a steel chair *would* do more to convince some of the people you talk to than calm, rational words, Matt.
Unlikely, at least with christian apologists that would more likely reinforce their martyrdom complex.
My highly religious ex-mother-in-law did call me after her son abandoned his 2nd wife and child (I was the first wife) and she asked me for forgiveness for her saying awful things about me in the past. She had finally realized that I was not the horrible person, her son was. LOL I told her that since I hadn't ever heard what she had said, it mattered not to me what was said. I really didn't care what she thought about me. But I nevertheless told her not to worry about it. At the time, I wasn't yet an atheist and thought it was still unusual that she would try and make amends.
Religious people are taught to feel guilty about everything so it's no surprise she owned up.
@@warren52nz It's really unusual that a christian feels it necessary to make direct amends with the person they hurt. They usually just talk to themselves (pray) and are all good after that.
@@rhondah1587 Yeah, Jesus is a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
@@rhondah1587 They are probably no worse than non-believers in that respect. While Christians might be more open to criticism of hypocrisy in failing to own up and make amens to those they have wronged ,I can't say non-believers are any better. Most people hope their transgressions are forgotten and attempt move on without being brave enough to face up to them.
@rhondah1587 I'm gonna guess you were actually the problem that's why you showed up here. The mother simply had a falling out with her son and wanted to find a teammate, what better person to look for verification from than the person who dislikes the person you currently dislike. All I'm saying is, your not convincing me by typing a story on a UA-cam comment section. Also, being an atheist isn't a "better" position than a religious one incase you thought it was, this is coming from an atheist.
Just joined the Patreon. About damn time!
Jesus knocks at the door.
I answer "yes"
Jesus says "let me in"
I answer "why Jesus?"
Jesus replies "so i can save you"
I ask "from what?"
Jesus answers "from what im going to do to you if you dont let me in"
Sounds like good news right everyone?
The good news is fake news.
Yeah but what a Christian would say to this is that Jesus is trying to save you from what you're doing to yourself. The gaslighting game is strong with Christianity.
it is a joke that says nothing profound.
religion is many things, all bad.
you cannot make good philosophy out of it, using such jokes.
such joke is not even anti-religion.
it helps make the bad things forgotten, so you can turn back to the same religious shit
@SergiuCosminViorel your comment makes no sense. Go outside and play son and let the grown-ups talk.
@@SergiuCosminViorel
Maybe reread the OP after a cup of strong coffee.
It's not simply a joke, it's a precise criticism about a core tenant of Christianity.
15:35 Excellent. 👍 Matt's points are huge. Misinterpretation / wrong / confused issue of "salvation" is embedded in Western Culture.
I appreciate these videos. Thank you.
Matt definitely bringing it with the Southern Baptist angle that I grew up with also lol.
Ya, there was a "once saved, always saved" tone to that salvation part.
Thank You Matt.
Happy new year Matt
I’m happy you’re done with modern day debate. They took a wrong turn.
😊 I like that shirt 👕 👌
Well said. Happy belated hannukah
Happy 2024!
Synchretism is a fundamental cultural process. Christmas is Christian in the same way that Chop Suey is American, Ginger Beef is Canadian and Chicken Tikka Masala is British. The hamburger and the frankfurter reveal their origins in their names (from Hamburg and Frankfurt), but they are quintessentially American --- though the whole world eats them now. I can remember when the English were confused by the idea of Halloween. Now they celebrate it enthusiastically. But North America originally got it from the Scots, amplifying the original turnip jack'o'lantern into a pumpkin. Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving in a different month from Americans, but the turkey and cranberries are the same --- the tourtiere, however, is their own. Trying to fight cultural synchretism, or denouncing it, is a fool's errand.
You could argue that the entire English language is syncretism in action. We loan so many words that to credit each culture with their contributions would be taxing to say the least. What I find is troubling are those that insist that each culture remain perfectly distinct. That would be a very boring world to live in, and would do a disservice to the many thousands of years of trading nations - it wasn't just goods that people traded of course! Cultures that are open to malleability, and those that take on other aspects of cultures are richer for it. I daresay that even the most fervent Christians are altogether appreciative of the certain pagan traditions that have now been syncretised in to their traditions.
Matt, what do you mean in heath care? 🤔 and Pikachu who?? 😂😂 thanks for the laughs! ❤
It is interesting that your angle mirrors experiences I have had. On each occasion, I have listened and heard the theist say, "I was mean to so-and-so and felt bad, so I prayed and felt much better." Or such. None said approached the person they had affronted in order to apologise.
I do hope to see your debates published on UA-cam. But totally understand why you don't want to do MDD.
I’m in northern Virginia, not currently involved with ffrf, but willing to help with a WV FFRF chapter if not too far.
I'm not.
Not there and not willing.
❤
I’m from WV!
🙏
👏yay Matt!
Syncretism is the rule in religion and culture in general. The church embraced polytheism through the trinity and the hundreds of saints. Major holidays absorbed local themes and characters all over. The only way to survive and flourish.
I was raised Catholic and the religion’s ability to incorporate aspects from different cultures was seen as a positive element. In fact, it made it “universal”, which is what “Catholic” means.
As for “Easter”, can’t help seeing a focusing on English language traditions. I am Portuguese, “Easter” is “Páscoa”, taken from “Passover”, and has no etymological connection to “Isthar”.
Victorian origin visuals do abound here but Christmas- “Natal”, derived from “Birth”- has a lot of traditions that predate the 19th century, by far, and are still in place.
Nativity scenes are huge, to the point you seen them all over town, put up by the town.
There are even museums of nativity scenes, with some cribs dating from Medieval days.
Same goes for the food, with cod fish being a staple all over the country (which does happen all year round but there is an extra focus on Christmas) along with even older sweets, including “bolo rei”.
I drove through my entire subdivision (about 50 houses) looking at christmas decorations comma not a single nativity scene or anything.
If you be not reconciled unto me, then, you are to me as an IRS agent! Be gone, foul beast!😂💸
I am _sooo_ glad you dumped MDD. Can't wait to see you get back to debating people who aren't ignorant, disingenuous trolls.
I imagine that when Constantine made the Roman empire Christian, Saturnalia rolled around and every one still did their usual part. The church leaders may have been like, fine you can party, but I don't want to here about this Saturn guy.
Weirdly enough I'm from WV and I'm an atheist, I visit pretty often. Also near Madison these days so maybe I'll check that out lol
Does anyone know of organizations in the Greensboro NC area, similar to those that were mentioned in the video? I’m leaving Madison WI and will be losing my community here, but have had a difficult time finding similar organizations as I prepare to move south. It’s difficult having to start all over again :(
Dan McClellan addresses this (he's a Biblical scholar). Eggs and rabbits were used by Christians, not for fertility, but because the rabbit represented parthenogenesis, and eggs were for breaking the fast of Lent.
In other words, cloning is A OK for Christians?
Parthogenesis is the egg becoming fertile asexually. The resulting child is a clone of the parent.
And rabbits don’t reproduce parthogenetically in nature.
So, McClellan is wrong. Rabbits represented fertility or fecundity.
Rabbits represent “go forth and multiply” to Christians. Rabbits are famous for doing exactly that.
South Park did better.
Rabbits can get pregnant while carrying a litter, which gave the *appearance* of parthenogenesis. They're associated with Mary in Christian art for this reason, not because they were fertility symbols stolen from pagans.
@@Vishanti
Which has nothing to do whether or not the story is itself true.
@@jrskp3677 yeah, that's why I never claimed the virgin birth story in the text is true.
It was a lot of fun listening to you preach in your own special way!
Where in Florida is the debate being held? please and thank you.
Love the videos, Matt, but could you please turn up the volume.
Audio is fine on my end 🤷🏻♂️
I agree. I need to turn on my stereo amp to get the volume I need.
Plenty loud on my end. 🤷 Interesting that people get different results
Got to agree, sound level is way down on others I watch, even with headphones.
It’s definitely not low for me
I'm mighty close to some parts of WV, where they at?
Its similar to saturnalia. The celebrations ended december 24th.amd it wqs custom to decorate trees that you had on your property and some would take branches of ever green trees and decorate tgem in their homes. This was a celebration of the solstice so it was dedicated to zeus and Demeter the godes of the harvest. These traditions existwd before jesus and as Jerusalem was under roman rule at the time its not hard to see that the two cultures mixed to create what is now Christmas.
I think people tend to forget the idea of 'folk' tradition in the 'is Christmas pagan or Christian?' question. People develop customs that they apply to the normative religion of their society. Most practises performed during times of Christian festivities don't have a Biblical grounding, so in a real sense they are not 'Christian'. That doesn't necessarily mean they are pagan. It means they are 'folk' traditions that are likely to have 'parasited' upon Christianity in the same way that they probably would have 'parasited' on paganism.
Thank you for this comment.
My degree is in comparative religion and peoples lack of nuance on this subject is infuriating for me. Thank you for recognizing nuance.
Even the festivities that survive from the polytheistic European past have lost their original polytheistic context and meaning whatever it may have been (we don't actually know a lot because of paucity of primary sources) because of Christianization, and people tend to forget that as well.
It's like Matt said, for a lot of people it's about scoring clout not accuracy
I don’t know what you mean by ‘not Christian’. This reminds me of how fundamentalists think - it’s utterly absurd. The idea that traditions associated with Christmas might ‘not be Christian’ is laughable. It doesn’t really matter if their origins are pre-Christian, they have become Christian traditions. They can still be practiced outside of Christianity, but they can’t be ‘not Christian’ when practiced by Christians in conjunction with Christmas. It’s just such an absurd idea.
I just noticed you said these practices don’t have “a biblical grounding” - this is literally just fundamentalism. It’s ridiculous enough when actual fundamentalist Christians use these kinds of arguments about what traditions are & aren’t permitted - but you’re presumably not one, so…what’s your excuse?
@@jamescampbell8482
cheers - though it seems not everyone appreciated it. oh well.
@@Jd-808
odd that you start by admitting that you don't know what I mean - then proceed to tell me what I mean.
You're arguing against a strawman here, and it seems that you've painted yourself into a weird corner. it sounds very much like you just defined anything a Christian does as 'Christian practice'. OK, cool, I agree with you that slavery is a Christian practice - I mean that's in the Bible, and laid out in detail - but I'm not sure many Christians would regard masturbation as typically a way of spotting a follower of Jesus...though given Paul's attitude towards marriage and children, maybe I'm wrong there.
I'm not Irish but I celebrate St Patrick's day.
Hey Matt, is there any update on your book "If I Were God"? I remember you mentioning you were writing it many years ago.
Hey there Matt this is Chris. Please pardon the repetition. I've already commented on your Matt Dillahunty vs. Michael Egnor debate review "Part 1". On the chance you don't come across that comment, I'm leaving it again. I searched high and low for "Part 2" and I just can't seem to locate it. If in fact it's out there somewhere, would you please be kind enough as to send me a link. I would really love to hear your thoughts! Thank you and happy New Year. Sincerely Christopher Engel
It never got done
I see. So if I understand this all correctly, then (re - salvation n sin) is: _If christianity is true, then Hitler is in heaven right now, while Anne Frank is burning in hell. Hitler was a Roman catholic and therefore 'saved,' while Anne Frank was an unrepentant Jew and therefore damned to hell._
That's one hell of an ad for the Christian church: "Come join us in Heaven. Meet Hitler and Jesus and laugh with us as we throw rocks at Anne Frank as she burns in hell!"
PS: For some reason, the notion of Christianity represented above reminded me of the politics of the Cardassian Union, before it joined the Dominion. When Captain Picard was being tortured by Gul David Warner and he still brought his daughter to work, Picard wondered why he would expose his daughter to such things. Gul Evek (?) told Picard that Cardassian children are taught that enemies of Cardassia deserve their fate. Picard undermined the sentiment by teaching Gul whoever that "When children are taught to devalue life, they can devalue any life. Even that of their parents!" Or something to that effect. Rather than acknowledge Picard's enlightenment, Gul-Dudeface instead resumed the counting-lights torture...
Inclusion of eggs into Easter-tradition most likely came from Lent. People did not eat eggs during Lent, but chickens don't stop laying them in honor of religious practices. So when Easter comes about there's surplus eggs that need to be eaten before they spoil.
Religion For Breakfast has a cool video about the origin of the Xmas tree. Apparently it is likely first recorded in the Germanic-speaking Alsatian region of France/Germany as a Christian medieval tradition of putting a decoratorated fir tree up in the hovel on Xmas day. (There was an law AGAINST it so it must have happened). And nothing, pagan or otherwise, before that.
Where is the Easter debate and is the public welcome? I live in Florida and would love to attend.
I'll give out details when it's finalized. But it's Good Friday at Crosswind Church in Tampa
@@SansDeity amazing! I look forward to it!
Dear Matt (and other people, I guess) re 7:33 ish
Though I understand how hard it might be to imagine the concept of snow in the middle east, it actually does happen. Frequently!
So "No," the idea of snow in Jerusalem is not a foreign concept. It would be something that the people of Judea as well as the surrounding lands would be entirely familiar with. It's not as common as snow in the more northern climates, but neither is it rare, nor is it entirely absent, as is snow in more southerly climates.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day to make your voice to be heard on high.
Atheists do not fast, but their goal is always strife and debate and to smite with the fist of wickedness.
Matt, great job. Until you're out and learn a bit, I don't think you, (anyone) realizes how odd or bad some stuff sounds. It seems to be the old, feels over reals. Example, everytime I see a 'miracle, baby saved by prayer in hospital!' Or similar story, and see all the comments praising God, blah, blah. I can't stop from thinking, 'yeah, this one was supposedly saved, what about the thousands that died everywhere in that same day, from malnutrition or diarrhea?' And it is not a miracle for me. Just luck. 👍💙💙💙🥰✌
Glad you’re doing well! Must be the extra protein in your diet! Happy 2024!
I think the discussion about Christmas being pagan makes no sense. The Christians celebrate a Christian holiday anyway. So the bottom line is, unless one actually believes in an all-powerful God, what meaning each individual puts into it. If there is an omnipotent God, then it is God who decides. I guess there is no God, so it's up to each individual.
What a great list. How do you get on board of directors; That hard work?
*nothing pagan about christmas*
Ok, fine. But why you herald a tree 🌲 (as a holidays symbol) 2 a man that’s been _crucified_ ☦️ along with a couple of thieves, I bet he’d be thrilled 😁.
Where is the debate in Florida?
Tampa, on Good Friday
Is there a link for the event?
I honestly can't remember anyone claiming all Christian holidays are all co-opted pagan traditions. Fairly sure people posting such memes are trying to convey the idea of syncretism, even if they haven't actually come across that term yet.
I’ve seen a bunch in the ‘pagan community’. Everything from Easter being connected to Ishtar or Astera/Eostre to solstice being co-opted by the xians. Some go in depth, and rather than acknowledging syncretism attributed such traditions were stolen or written over purposefully.
The Bible *appears* to make a reference to something that might be considered a Christmas Tree, in Jeremiah 10.
"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
That sounds an awful lot like bringing a tree into your home or village and decorating it... [shrug] so at the very least, Jews and early Christians were aware of such practices.
If things had been better everything would of been different
AA does require you to make amends.
If Jesus saves, well, he better save himself
From the gory glory seekers who use his name in death, aw! Oh, Jesus save me
- Jethro Tull, Hymn 43
I will make amends, the same day god makes amends with mankind. He has a lot to apologize for.
Perhaps I am asking too much of a being that only exists in the twisted fantasies of the religious.
I call it pagan because theres no historically religious reasons for it.
The traditions are more cultural than religious but they're still not historically part of the theology
Omg😢😢😢😢
I'm not sure what your reaction is about.
@SansDeity I was just taken back that you asked about FFRF ;)
The amount of outrage people felt towards Matt for walking out on a debate is disgusting.
Debates should be about the information not about the interlocutor.
Just goes to show internet blood sports don't care about facts.
So glad you're done with Modern Day Debates. What a shitshow, useless moderators.
It's in the Bible, trust it bro
Well, Matt, thank you but I have good news and bad. The good news is after years of watching these debates, reading, questioning, etc. I get it. The theists only have philisophical arguments and "explanations". Not proof as you have described and I agree with. That is what I am waiting for them to present and their evidence is " isn't anything possible? Therefore, God?"
Plus guilt and other emotions that make us want to feel safe.
The bad news: not going to watch anymore of these debates. So might unsub, not because I don't like you but it is no longer relevent. Thank you for that. Should have listened to my Zen teacher ( yeah a real one ). I asked him why he won't engage with the Jehovah W that came to the door one day. Here's a guy who has about seven degrees in humanities, philosophy,etc and he says not worth it. Peace brother.
I think the pagan christmas argument can be restated from "Christmas is a pagan tradition" (which would never be entirely true, because celebrating the birth of Christ still is part of Christmas, at least where I come from) to instead tell people that they are "celebrating pagan traditions" when celebrating Christmas, because the celebration consists of many different traditions, some of which can be identified as being of pagan origin.
But Christians _aren’t_ “celebrating pagan traditions”. They are quite obviously celebrating Christmas.
@@Jd-808 Celebrating pagan traditions and celebrating Christmas are not mutually exclusive if Christmas features pagan traditions. And the latter is hard to argue against.
@@kappascopezz5122 A) That’s exactly _my_ point. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Which is to say, traditions aren’t ‘not Christian’ just because they had pagan origins. And Christians can’t be ‘celebrating’ something they are not even aware they’re celebrating. That’s absurd. B) In actual scholarship, the reverse is true. It’s very difficult to make a case that similarities between traditions are genetic.
@@Jd-808 The only thing you said in your comment was that celebrating Christmas somehow implies that you can't be celebrating pagan traditions, and I don't see how that's different from assuming that they are mutually exclusive. It's very strange to then go on to argue that them *not* being mutually exclusive was your actual point.
Christians are very much celebrating the traditions, regardless of whether they're aware of whether said traditions are pagan or not.
And I agree that it's difficult to show that the traditions really do originate from somewhere else, but that's also a different statement from the much harder to verify claim that they were *not* somehow inspired.
@@kappascopezz5122 No, people cannot celebrate something without…celebrating it. And certainly not without even knowing about the thing they’re supposedly celebrating. This is equivalent to someone telling you that if you observe Christmas in any way, you are celebrating the birth of Christ. Are you doing that, or are you celebrating a cultural holiday? Guess what, other people don’t get to decide for you. Christmas originated as a Christian day of observance for the birth of Christ, but it’s commonly celebrated secularly as well. It isn’t one OR the other.
And I have no idea what you mean about traditions not ‘being inspired’. Where do you think traditions come from? Divine command? The Bible? That isn’t how people work.
I am the 666th thumbs up...lol
Just call it "gaythiests"
Thank the Lord i don't believe in! No, let's thank, Matt instead! No more modern day debates. A company as a moderator and they refuse to moderate and out you to annoy you to exhaustion and make money off it. Should sue them to take down the videos as they didnt hold ip their end of the deal. To fucking moderate correctly.
Re - Christmas not being a Pagan holiday.
See, I'd find this easier to believe, if -
(A) There wasn't a rich, documented history of Winter Solstice celebrations.
(B) If winter solstice wasn't around the week of 20th of December.
(C) The Roman holiday of Bacchanalia didn't exist and wasn't thoroughly documented.
(D) The later Roman holiday of Saturnalia didn't exist and wasn't held at the same time as Christmas later came to be celebrated.
(E) The Roman Empire didn't later adopt Christianity while still maintaining a LARGE population of people who were used to the Roman customs and holidays, both of which are well documented.
It seems feasible, then, that when the Roman world became ostensibly Christian, that the enormous populace who lived under nominal Roman rule (or Byzantine, as the case may be) continued to celebrate Saturnalia, even after becoming a 'Christian nation' and that to make the holiday acceptable to the Gods, the priests and rulers called it "Christmas" and tried to limit its celebration of all things Pagan, while emphasising whatever things Christian they thought important.
As far as I'm aware, the above IS the case and hearing Matt say "Christmas isn't a holiday stolen from the Pagans," isn't enough to convince me otherwise. I know too much about Roman history to accept such a flimsy case. If Matt's case is true, then I'd need a LOT more than this unsubstantiated claim.
The Bible does not require me to do anything. I make my own life.
Christmas is a highjacked pagan new year/renewal festival.
If Jesus existed, he was born in September - 22nd Dec is the Winter Solstice, but xmas has drifted to the 25th due to various people fiddling with the calendar.
Yes, a tree, holly, yule logs etc are pagan. Just as Easter in a highjacked new life pagan festival.
I use to listen to Matt until I realized he was a branch covidian and has the same lack of reasoning abilities as the theists he puts down.
🚨 Crackpot Conspiracist 🚨
Matt's videos have seriously gone downhill lately. Another thumbs down
You've got some nerve talking about dishonest debaters. I called in to your bullshit podcast you had and you immediately just cut me off, yelled obscenities, didn't allow me to talk and straw manned me
Because you were being dishonest.
Religion is not dying, it’s evolved into science. If religion as it claims, for the good of people, it will realize science as it’s evolution, which it certainly is, so it’s followers can find meaning and have somewhere to go.
What in the incoherent run on sentence is this.
@@djl2457
Is religion for the good of people? If so - Religion is a king who initially introduced meanings to scaffold a moral and controllable system to build bigger communities by revealing what it called the truth to unite people in a goal. Form of government. Now refusing to retire for its offspring, the science, with the same aim but as a verifiable truth, to be king. I’m afraid the king is losing his spiritual legitimacy not evolving and trapped by its imposed limitation of growth to be equal to levels that its restricting the evolution of its followers to be, Is now encountering defection to science; not realizing everything evolves and if religion dies, it’s a sequence of nature that science wouldn’t exist without it, and it has been created to seek answers so to replace it. Religion’s evolution into science is the inevitability of spiritual science. We are spiritual with or without religion
@@rezadaneshi Once again, what in the incoherent run on sentence was that?
@@djl2457 My assumption of you reading intending to comprehend was an underestimation of your overestimation of your comprehension and the value of things you don’t comprehend to others. I understand. I see you. Peace
@@rezadaneshiReligion is for the benefit of the clergy. Religion didn't, isn't, and never will evolve into anything but more religions.
❤ need LGBTQIA+ Nonbelievers 😊
A lot of this information seems like first sentence of any Internet search. You're used to talking to dummies, yes?
Do you really think you will convince anyone without an argument?
Yes, he’s definitely used to talking to theists.
Short video shorter: “weelllll actually…” but adds nothing and gets lost in nuance