Eurovision 2024 - The cheating has started already
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- Опубліковано 20 лют 2024
- There's some dodgy stuff going on in the Eurovision Song Contest. Listen for yourself. Does this song really comply with the rules?
Eurovision Song Contest - eurovision.tv/
Melodifestivalen - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodif...
Melodifestivalen on Sveriges Television - www.svtplay.se/melodifestivalen
C-Joe Melodifestivalen on UA-cam - • C-Joe - Ahumma
This video is a review of the clip shown. This complies fully with the provisions of Fair Use (USA) and Fair Dealing (UK) under copyright law.
Vocal isolation using RipX by Hit'n'Mix. Hit'n'Mix Ltd has requested the following disclaimer: "The creators of RipX DAW, Hit’n’Mix Ltd, do not condone ripping of audio without the appropriate copyright permissions. The choice of song used in this video is the full responsibility of Audio Masterclass. No copyright infringement intended. For private learning and study purposes only. Song studied is 'Ahumma' by C-Joe. All song rights belong to the original artists & labels."
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David Mellor's music on Bandcamp - davidmellor.bandcamp.com/
David Mellor's music on Spotify - open.spotify.com/artist/6OkaD...
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National finals have different rules and therefore you shouldn't compare every song from the finals to the actual contest.
The EBU isn't involved in the national selection process. Some of the televised national contests, especially the Scandinavian ones, don't even pretend to follow the ESC rules. They've had whole choirs on stage in the past. Some of them specifically permit autotune. They figure that the national contests are showcases for the artists (only one is going to The Big Show after all), so they'll make them look/sound good and then worry about the ESC rules when the time comes.
That being said, the rules are made to be broken, and when it comes to the backing tracks, they constantly are. Not only are the voices being doubled and tripled on the track, they're often being doubled and tripled by the same singer. And the lip-sync rule is pretty much ignored. Witness Kaarija (Finland's second place act last year) who didn't make a single audible peep until he got out of his box. That gruff rapping voice at the beginning was entirely on the track, as can be easily proven by comparing the audio of the two televised performances.
But that's what happens when your contest and your salary are entirely beholden to 37 obstreperous national broadcasters. You pick your battles.
PS - "Eurovision" is the name of the organization (it's the TV part of the EBU) that does the "Eurovision Song Contest", and a whole lot of other services besides. Yes, everybody calls the contest "Eurovision" but that technically isn't right. Eurovision is the parent outfit. The "Euro" name is based on an internationally agreed-upon geographic regulatory boundary from the telegraph days called the European Broadcasting Area, which covers a lot more ground than Europe (including the Middle East and North Africa), the idea being that both sides of the Mediterranean Sea needed to be under the same jurisdiction. Israel and Azerbaijan have broadcasters that are members of Eurovision, so they're in. There are other Middle Eastern broadcasters that could theoretically participate, but Israel got there first so now they won't do it. Australia? Well, ummm, SBS asked nicely ...
I suspect that this Swedish selection competition does not have exactly the same rules as the Eurovision competition for real. The eventual winner of the Swedish one will almost certainly have to comply with the Eurovision rules to compete in that one. The Swedish selection goes on for quite some time I believe and they are quite serious about their entry selection.
I watch Eurovision every year for the past 10 years and I've gone back and watch all the early years I can find starting in I believe is the 1950s & 60s. I love the various ethnic song writing styles, the beautiful stage performances and I especially admire the monumental behind the scenes production crew work.
There are rules for different national finals though. In Norways national final you are allowed autotune, which you can't in actual Eurovision. So no this isn't cheating
I love this man, I love this channel 😊
Countries are allowed to choose their national representative how ever they like. Not every country even has a public selection process (UK obviously). If national selection allows for more effects, autotune and vocals on backing track, that's their problem. If they choose an artist who can't reproduce the same sound or show in Eurovision, tough luck. They are only cheating themselves.
As a Swede I can teach you a useful phrase: "De fuskar!" (They are cheating!)
The worst case last week was Gunilla Persson, who is a reality TV star in Sweden. I don't think she did more than about 10% of her singing. She was mumbling in her microphone while an invisible background singer did all the singing.
You raise a good point. Watching it again, I wouldn't disagree with the possibility.
AFAIK, it's up to each country to select their song by any means they like, and it may well be that the Eurovision rules don't apply at that stage.
This is likely. Six dancers can be symmetrical about the solo singer which is possibly preferable to Swedish Television. The restriction to six performers in total was apparently made for economic reasons and sustainability.
The national competitions to chose a competitor does not have to adhere to the Eurovision rules. I can't think of an example right now, but as a Swede I'm pretty sure I've seen many performances that would have to change somewhat had they won the chance to compete in the Eurovision. That said, the Swedish Melodifestival does have some rules in itself, I'm pretty sure the rules about vocals are identical to the ones in Euriovision. I would not, however, be surprised if the rules about dancers and such are different.
First off, as a few other folks have already noted, competitors in the finals aren't required to follow the same rules as apply to the actual competition.
Second, I would wonder whether some specific modern technologies, might make the EXACT interpretation of the rule rather complex.
For example I could imagine a processing plugin that "time sliced the feed and modulated each time slice slightly differently"...
You might be able to do this in such a way that a single "feed" of the voice "sounded" like it was being doubled... while technically it was still a single audio stream.
There's also sort of a fine technical line between "doubling the voice" and "artificially adding harmonics to it"... which might be tricky to define.
I'm assuming that they are NOT going to forbid ANY processing of the voice...
And, with more sophisticated DSP-based processing, it becomes difficult for anyone except a programmer to tell exactly what's being done to the feed...
And, to add one of the tricky questions you seem to like so much, and maybe offer a subject for another video...
What would the rules have to say about a NON-HUMAN AI-BASED backup singer?
Comments have indeed been interesting. My original thought was that the 'cheating' - if this is cheating - in the selection contest was preparation for cheating in Eurovision. I will be looking further into this in May, unless of course all the acts are clean. However I'm coming more to the idea that it's the voters in the selection competition who are being cheated. One commenter said that in Norway's selection competition, Auto-Tune is allowed. What if the winner can't sing in tune at Eurovision where Auto-Tune is specifically disallowed? Anyway, I watched the latest heat of Melodifestvalen last night and enjoyed it from beginning to end.
I don't watch the Euro Songfestival for 35 year and it's very unlikely that I will watch it ever again.
At least you had the opportunity to see Riva winning the contest with 'Rock Me' for Yugoslavia. Oh, and the UK in second!
@@AudioMasterclass I'm from former Yugoslavia (now Serbia) and we always have a catchy pop songs. They always were in top 10, like Daniel in `83 ua-cam.com/video/PIP7UsFygxo/v-deo.html, who goes international those days (it earned 1. place in my opinion and very popular in Germany), but in 90s politics get involved and a catchy song in `91 Eurovision end up being 21. place ua-cam.com/video/hu3hs-C0ofA/v-deo.html. And Riva`s place is earned, let`s be real. ;)
Poor you, you're missing out on so much! :D There seems to be this odd type of people who take perverse delight in going around telling everyone that they'd never watch Eurovision in a million years, or alternatively watched like 50 years ago but will never again... Well there are tons of things *I'd* never do, like playing video games, I just don't see any point in that & not interested in the slightest, but I don't go around commenting saying so all over the internet... Why would I?!? (In fact this was the 1st ever time I wrote a comment saying that anywhere online, and did so just to make a point ;D)) Oh please.
@@florenna Very well said!! Totally agree.
For my family Eurovision finals is party night, butties, cakes, drinks and a score sheet for each person to vote. We are from the UK but we all choose our top 3 regardless of the country. What an amazing event, shame we could not afford to go to the finals and get the atmosphere but it is the one thing we watch every year.
Who is to say that he isn't singing into the mic and the signal goes into a mixer that can output 6 of him, each one separated by just a few milliseconds to create a 'chorus'.
As a citizen Canada it wasn't easy to care about this mornings class, however, audio trickery applied to vocals are not hard to discern if you've ever attended a live acoustic performance of vocalists in three dimensions....
This could be simplified by banning any form of playback. The use of samplers could be constrained to outlaw a file length over a certain very short period of time to allow for instrumentation while forbidding vocals.. Are we really to expect 6 musicians can’t perform the song with necessary rehearsal?
The added effect of this throwback to actual musicianship would be positive in so many ways for touring performers, showing a viewing audience exactly what can, and what cannot, be expected from live performers.
That's a lot of very, very accurate live backing vocal singing! Riiiiight...
Sounds like electronic processing to me.
I have a colleque at work who was an off stage voice double at the Eurovision last year - I can ask him what country it was, because it was not our native Denmark as far as I remember :-)
I have now asked my colleque - It was Cyprus he helped out as the off-stage lead vocal double in last years eurovision
I thought people were cheating by using call centers to influence the phone voting.
Looks like the rule regarding the number of people on stage isn't as strict anymore as back in the late 70s when a fraction of the Les Humphries Singers were on, usually quite a large group, but not that night.
I'm a Swedish Audiophile! Can't stand Eurovision. Yet another great comment from Audio Phil .
Can you do a video about Miss World please?
No, would have to be Mrs. World with all contestants over 60. And single.
How many audiophiles does it take to change a lightbulb? Pardon? 😉
Very good. Alternatively - Three: one to change the bulb, one to criticise the quality of light, and one to complain that the old bulb had better warmth.
True 🙂
To be honest a handful of decent songs come out of Eurovision but normally sink without trace, The contest has changed so much over the years, as has the way music is created its impossible to have a level playing field. As for the voting its a complete farce every year.
How many audiophiles will admit to watching Euroviaion?
None.
I like ABBA. That all that comes out of Eurovision with any credibility. It's now garbage.
You can certainly tell that a lot of YOU haven't watched it in a very long time ...
Vocal processors?
Eurovision is not about music at all, it's purely about the Vision. Yes, some singing does happen there occasionally, but it's just a side-effect of the main Vision in the making.😎
I can't even enjoy the irony of Eurovision. I do enjoy Debbie's input however, she reminds me of Frank Zappa's Cyborg in Joe's Garage. Let's see more of her, and her sister.
Wasn't it always the case that there is some sort of negotiation behind the scene to decide whose turn it is to win, and regardless, don't the judges from some or most countries always vote for their own country anyway? Not a follower of Eurovision, but that's the impression I get as an outsider who doesn't care.
I would prefer to doubt your first premise. Your second is false because you can't vote for your own country. You can however vote for a country that will vote for your own in return, which is common. For Melodifestivalen my suspicion is that the songs that are given the most elaborate staging are the ones on the shortlist to be Sweden's entry.
@@AudioMasterclass Thank you for your insights. There was Waterloo and, if memory serves, an OK song by Bucks Fizz, but the other winning songs I heard were not memorable. Anyway, Eurovision is not my cup of tea, but thank you for your interesting and educational video.
It’s all “focus pocus”
In this annual international spectacular extravaganza that is Eurovision, the only unadulterated human voices one is likely to hear is that of the presenters.
Nah, that's incorrect. Voice altering is not permitted in ESC, simple as that.
Tis correct! That and a whole lot of of other audio skullduggery.
I really doubt the jury or the organisation would not have access to the backing track. They should bring live instruments back b.t.w. Those people pretending to play guitar, synths or drums look pathetic.
Of course the production team have access to the backing tracks, actually stems, or there wouldn't be a show. The question is though how much attention do they pay to sticking to the letter of the rules?
Your whole argument falls down when one considers that Eurovision isn't actually about music. The muses ceased to be interested in Eurovision since the late 1970's
In Melodifestivalen, every artist has to sing live, but they are always backed up with pre-recorded harmonies, dubs, lead vocals, etc. This is problematic for two reasons: 1) Half of the 'artists' in Melodifestivalen can't even sing, and 2) Our artists always sound worse in Eurovision Song Contest (ESC) than in Melodifestivalen.
2) yes, and if phone-in votes are paid-for, this is potentially fraud.
So electronic vocal doublers/triplers/harmonisers/auto-tuners/etc. are just fine then! None of that any technical wizardry will make a jot of difference to the outcome, of course, as the majority of the voting is based on geopolitical allegiances. Poor Phil, I'm beginning to feel sorry for him.
Yet Portugal won anyway ...
It is allowed to have pre recorded vocals and lip syncing in Melodifestivalen, and if such a song qualifies to Eurovision Song Contest, the song will have to be rearranged.
Of course, but I see this as preparation for cheating in the actual Eurovision competition. Either that or the voting public are being cheated because the act that represents their country will not sound as it did when they voted.
@@AudioMasterclass Agreed!
@@AudioMasterclassWhat is honest in pop music?
watching last night, apart from the cheating of 600+ bogus points they gave to ukraine and israel, almost everyone had dubs, chorus and other effects, and nowhere to be seen back up vocals.
To be clear, according to the rules that I’ve been able to find, background singers are allowed on the track. But they must not reinforce the lead vocal. I believe that live singers can double the vocal. In any case, if these are the rules they went out of the window last night. It was refreshing to hear the acts that were undoubled.
Hate any kind of backing tracks.
Sounds like he ran his voice through a bunch of guitar peddles or an eventide box 😅
Whenever I watch Eurovision, I'm just reminded why, historically the UK has done disproportionately well internationally whenever it comes to contemporary music, no matter the genre. Eurovision is good for a laugh, but let's be honest, it's just camp Schlager cheese.
Just as well that I won't bother to watch it. By the way, have you been watching Wings of Pegasus' videos regarding autotuning vocals?
Tell me when you’ve watched Eurovision and I’ll watch Wings of Pegasus.
I've checked out a couple of WoP videos as to his position on AutoTune. I know that Fil wants to enact some kind of legislation to advise consumers as to when vocals on a new release have been AT'd, but although his heart is in the right place, I feel like it is ALWAYS a bad idea to give any government entity ANY level of legal control over artistic endeavors. I think it's wise to let the marketplace decide for itself what is acceptable, and particularly so in terms of production techniques. @AudioMasterClass, sorry for drifting a bit off course here.
@@AudioMasterclass I have watched it. That's why I don't any more.
Eurovision are the para olympics of San Remo.
Norway allows autotune in Melodi Grand Prix, for instance, which Sweden and other countryes don't. That doesn't mean that Norway is cheating in their contest, they just follow their rules, and then have to drop the autotune in Eurovision. Some countries "re-vamp" their song after their national final, changing it, is that dodgy too? Some countries just have a music video instead of a live performance, is that cheating?
I feel like some people don't get that the national finals are shows of their own, like in Sweden Melodifestivalen has more viewers in Sweden than Eurovision, the Melodifestivalen final will be in a bigger arena with a bigger audience than in Eurovision, it's not just a national selection show for Sweden. Sweden allows 8 performers, while Eurovision only allows 6. Sweden allows certain words, while Eurovision doesn't, so Robin Bengtsson sang the so-called "f-word" in Melodifestivalen, but then had to change it to "freakin" in Eurovision. Different TV-shows has different rules, there aren't anything dodgy about that, that's not cheating to have other rules.
Clearly countries can select in any way they like. But where the performance/staging/processing is different in a selection competition to the eventual Eurovision entry then the public isn't able to make a proper judgement. Let's hope the Norwegian entry can sing in tune on the day - there was an infamous occasion when the UK couldn't. I'll be making a followup video if I hear anything dodgy in May.
@@AudioMasterclass"But where the performance/staging/processing is different in a selection competition to the eventual Eurovision entry then the public isn't able to make a proper judgement."
When countries have a internal selection, the public doesn't get to make a judgement at all, though.
A lot of people thought the UK and the Netherlands entries sounded great last year... in their music videos, but not live.
I think it's much more fair, and less dodgy, to present a live version of the entry, than a music video.
Using words like cheating in the title, when someone is following the rules of the selection show they're in, is of course click-bait on your end, which is in a way bit of cheating in itself, right?
Good video, but rewards/awards shows are failing in ratings by a tremendous amount. Nobody really cares anymore. Send a top artist to the Super Bowl, well that make ratings. Sad but true.
New music = robot sounds. The lack of human voice.
Funny that a song festival has no songs anymore.
You say that, but however much you dislike the songs the one thing they do usually have that current chart music usually doesn't are dynamics, both in the arrangements and the sound. I may be out of date but I see that as a good thing.
@@AudioMasterclass I see what you mean, if compared to the current pop scene. But if one compares 2024's songs with ABBA's for example...
@@AudioMasterclass Very astute observation and right on the money. Ah, dynamics...you and I are old enough to remember them David.
Heh.. Eurovision songfestival. In the late 80s, a girl group from the Netherlands participated, that is the last time I watched that, and one of the few times. I only watched because 2 members of that group were in my friends circle.
Anyway... I have an almost 30 years old Boss sx-700 'studio effects processor' here which can create such backing vocals 'on the spot' digitally. Not entirely as 'good' as this, but hey, that is decades old tech now and at the time wasn't the best money could buy, nor the first device able to do such things. To me this sounds like similar processing, and not a backing track.
Hej (Hi) David. I am an Englishman living in Sweden. Love the Channel. Could you mention about the brilliance of the human ear... How it can adjust, adapt and correct. There are many good sounds so it all comes down to personal taste eller hur? (Right?) I say this with little regard to Melodifestivalen! All of which is skitsnack! (bull shit) Great stuff! Tack så mycket (Thanks so much) Keep it up. Steve.
I can certainly consider this for a future video. Until then, vi ses.
Don't get cocky! För fan! My grasp of Swedish is terrible, even after 15 years! But I'm up for a showdown min kompis! Jävle!! 😊
I appreciate your analysis. I do watch Eurovision, and the national selections. I value to opportunity to discover artists from different parts of the world and the sense of community. I prefer to see live singers performing together (back up singers on stage): this feels more authentic and embodies the intent of ESC to bring people together. I really dislike hidden singers and recorded backing vocals; these feel so hollow to me.
As an aside: look at the the animosity in the comments here: I guess voicing disdain has a neurochemical reward.
If I had a pound for every voice of distain in my channel it would pay for my trip to Sweden in May.
It's the UK folks showing up en masse. In the UK you have to hate the Eurovision Song Contest without actually having seen it, or you can't sit with the cool kids at lunch. Mostly because decades of Terry Wogan's snark taught them all to be jerks, and because they haven't won since 1997. They almost pulled it off in 2022 (nobody was beating Ukraine that year), but most of their other UK entries this century haven't been even slightly competitive. So dey mad.
You're right. Wogan was so snarky and sometimes downright offensively rude. @@narkspud691
I recall when the winning composers used to come on stage and share the award because it was a SONG contest and the song was important.
WTF(estival)....?!
As if we can't get even more ridiulous as humans. I concur with the comments below.
The ESF used to be something special and it turned into a weird number game at the the time already. It lost it's charm for that decade. What I hear now is like, kindergarten level performance.
It was always about the song, not the performance. And those performances were quite poor honestly, but that made it real, live. In return you would get honest ratings. Somehow politics got involved. Just weird sh*t for my guess, fast profits..The whole one-year hype is what makes the money.
After Conchita Wurst, anyone takes Eurovision seriously?
Probably the 162 million people who watched it last year eurovision.tv/story/eurovision-2023-reaches-162-million
dont waste your time on this - Cliff Richard's going to win anyway
Why is Eurovision a thing at all. The music is at best shoddy and at worst tragic.
Funny you should say that about the longest-running international music competition on TV.
I seem to recall, In the dim & distant past, this was a song contest, ie about the song writing.Sadly since the advent of viewer voting, it has become a camp political spectacle. Perhaps if it went back to voting juries, more of the UK’s extremely successful main stream pop song composers and bands would consider it worth their while participating, and we might be more successful.
I wouldn't walk across the street to see that guy sing.
I don't care about Eurovision and i think no one should. It has no relevance and the music sucks.
Lots of us enjoy the show. The music is far better these days than it was in the past.
Garbage. That me ! I only speak for myself.
It has relevance and the music is good
Gee you're cool.
What has Eurovision ever done for us? Well, ABBA, I suppose. But apart from that? Way less than the Romans. Conclusion: who gives a s**t?
YES!
It's cheating. Fact.
Not up for discussion.
Who cares about eurovision ? It's on Tv...
I don't enjoy that contest....cheers.
No more AI please :D
Wot? You mean my AI or the Eurovision songwriters and performers?
@@AudioMasterclass your AI. I prefer to watch real humans, the AI feels fake. Just a reccommendation.
It’s already cheating. If Mexico or US were in Eurovision, everyone else could just go home, unless the Swedish can somehow bring ABBA back😂
If the USA wants to renounce its independence I’m sure it can be arranged.
@@AudioMasterclass that has nothing to do with Mexico, who would STILL win Eurovision
No problemo. Mexico can rejoin with Spain.
It’s ok. Love the channel. You’re great and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise
ABBA, are class. If only they would come back.
I have lost interest in Eurovision since Terry Wogan sadly passed away. I remember his classic comments, such as “That was obviously more fun to sing than it was to listen to”.
Where to start.... okay, the word 'dub' has nothing to do with 'double'. Secondly, his backing vocals are most likely himself pre-recorded. They are clearly separate and distinguishable from his live vocals. Hardly 'unduly assisting' his singing. If anything, it could be assisting his English, which, mind you, is probably at least his third language, something that western mono-linguists would struggle to fathom, let alone accomplish. And those people on stage, are, as you rightly point out, dancers, but only that. They're not mic'ed up. There is, however, a pre-recorded 'choir' or 'choir effect', which is very common in pop music. There are an indeterminable number of voices, which, could indeed have involved doubling-up, but really, how is this irritating you so much? Next you'll probably claim that the voting is rigged like a party pooper, when there's no hiding the fact that neighbouring countries vote for each other as a sign of friendship and solidarity. Holy Moses! Back to the audio equipment please :)
You're right. Dub is what King Charles III is going to do to me when I receive my knighthood.
Yes, and he'll probably bring up your Asian and German ancestry when he dubs you, "Sir Ching Fretenschen"
Promo`SM 😅
All of this is pure click bait. This performance is not from Eurovision!
I say clearly in the video that this is from Melodifestivalen. This song is a candidate for entry into Eurovision.
Eurovision has never been about the music. How many Eurovision winners go on to have successful careers. Very few. In fact , how many winning tunes can you name from the last 10 years. I love music, hate Eurovision and never watch it. I personally own over 2,000 albums on various formats, not one containing a Eurovision winning entry. If Palestine were to enter this year, they would win . No doubt about it.
What a waste of time!
You must be running out of little plastic amps to review that nobody will buy.
oh, people buy
they do
It is. Eurovision is a complete waste of time. Glad we are on the same page.
Utter bilge contest , political crap