Why did the Watford DC Line run into the East End?
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- Опубліковано 22 січ 2024
- The Watford DC Line parallels the West Coast Main Line for much of its route and is very synonymous with London Euston to many rail enthusiasts. However, there was a time throughout much of the 19th and 20th century, even as late as 1992, where the Watford DC line didn't terminate at just Euston, and instead terminated elsewhere, two of the locations being in the East End which many would find unusual given how far the WCML is from the East End.
On the 13th/14th January I was lucky enough to catch the incredibly rare service that was a merger of the Stratford to Willesden Junction section of the NLL and the Willesden to Watford section of the Watford DC Line, which in some ways was very similar to the services that ran into the East End, although they didn't run to Stratford and instead ran into Liverpool Street and Broad Street via Dalston and in the case of Liv St, Hackney. Have a watch of this video for more information!
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As a non-Londoner, at the age of 18, I had a week's holiday in London, my first independent holiday without my family. This enabled me to get in all the sight-seeing, I needed to do in London and to go to the theatre most evenings. I came across Broad Street Station when having a day trip to Southend from Liverpool Street. Exploring Broad Street the next day I realised I could get a train to Gunnerbury and return to central London on the District Line.
During the 2012 Olympics special timetables operated including trains from Willesden Junction bay road to Stratford.
The Line was called the Harlequin Line due to the shopping centre that opened in Watford "The Harlequin Centre" opened June 1992 and the Harlequin was the same as the one painted next to the name on the train sides
Actually it was the other way around. The shopping centre got it's name from the railway line.
Thanks for this detailed history. I used Broad Street station back in the 1960s, and it was - as you say - in a process of 'managed decline'. These days, the North London Line from Stratford has a good service, though it is an important freight route and probably couldn't handle any more passenger trains. The interchange at Willesden Junction is not bad (though is there a lift?), so journey times involving that change are good. At one point I remember a proposal to take the DC lines below ground at Euston and extend them to Bank - that would be a faster route to the City,, and would mean those Euston ground-level platforms could be used more effectively/ Presumably it would justify a more frequent service to Watford, and the Bakerloo could revert to terminating at QP - enabling level boarding on the DC lines stations (with a bit of track work).
Look forward to your next video
The NLL cannot handle more trains nowadays you’re completely right and so it’ll be interesting to see how TFL try and handle the capacity problems faced on the NLL as a result. A freight report suggested 50% more trains could operate between Camden Road and Stratford with the reintroduction of the Platform 3 in Camden Road, although a common idea of mine has been to extend those services down the DC to the Willesden J LL plats as the stations on the DC have similar catchments to some NLL stations and would use the Primrose Hill curve. Its a nice idea I think but the flat junction there esp when you consider freight trains use the curve to wait coming from WCML then not too sure on the viability of anything other than those extra Camden to Stratford services :(
The Bank suggestion sounds interesting and sounds very 1950s/60s, mind linking it?
@@somenorthlondoner It was probably 20 years ago at least - I think I must have read it in Modern Railways magazine, or similar. The obvious extension from Bank would be out to the Dockland area, but I don't think there could be a practical design for stock to operate through on to the DLR, though the track gauge is OK. The area beneath Bank must be getting a bit crowded with underground railways, as well as the drains and other services, so it may not be practical to run a new line down there. But if there is room, another idea would be to link up the underused GN & City (Moorgate) with, say, the Peckham Rye lines out of London Bridge terminus. Shorter than the 'Liz Line' and hopefully therefore cheaper, wouldn't need to be so grand, but the through service would undoubtedly bring in more custom to these under-utilised tracks, particularly with say 8 trains per hour.
Bakerloo can't terminate at QP, it needs the depot at Stonebridge Park, only depot on the line. All other sites are just stabling facilities, and nowhere else to put a depot.
@@lipkinasl Does that have to be the final reason we can't get level boarding on the DC lines? At times the trains on the line between QP and Stonebridge Park are running 2 minutes apart, which suggests that there should be space in an all-OG service for Bakerloo trains to access the SBP depot. The other alternative would be for the OG to end at Queens Park, or perhaps at the terminating platforms at Willesden Junction, not stopping t Kensal Green. At some point I think level boarding will become a more important issue than it is at present.
GreT Video. Croxley Green was a Bea ch FROM Watford Junction. left From the old line to Ricky. Aso Croxly green was the Depot for the 501s(as well as two Roads for Bakerloo line trains.
Pedantically speaking, Stratford is part of West Ham, which was an independant County Borough of Essex until 1965. The old LCC boundary was the River Lea.
I used part of the Watford to Stratford service on both days, between West Hampstead and Stonebridge Park, for work journeys. On thé Sunday evening, going back towards WHD, a young lady glanced up from her phone near Brondesbury and asked ‘when do we get to Queens Park?’ 😂 I had to tell her about the fact we were headed to Stratford and not Euston, which freaked her out. ‘But I was trying to get to London Bridge, what do I do?’ So I told her to follow me off at West Hampstead, and then cross the road to the Jubilee Line station, where she could go direct to London Bridge (instead of her planned route via Queen’s Park and a change at Baker Street)
That was very kind of you to let her know! :)
Certainly was a strange service. All the better for us enthusiasts though!
I lived on the DC line during the latter years of the Liverpool Street services. A couple of points I could add. As I remember the final services from DC to Liverpool Street ran as a shuttle from Willesden Junction only, not the full length of the line. The real reason for the service ending was need for additional rolling stock on the North London Line. On Saturdays, the Watford DC line used 6 coach trains, presumably utilising rolling stock used on the Liverpool Street service on weekdays. This also ended around the same time as Liverpool Street services. The poor reputation of the line was at least partly due to the bottleneck at H&W. Until the 1980s re-signalling there were two turnback sidings at H&W controlled by a complex set of points operated from a signal box at the end of platform 1. If the points failed, or the signalman was unavailable Bakerloo Line trains could not operate. One turnback siding was removed simplifying the points with centralised control from Willesden (I think). Also a crossover south of the station allowed trains to head south from platform 1 without needing to use the turnback siding.
I travelled on the Watford Junction
to Stratford Train Service
It went from Willesden Junction
Low Level Station
up a Single Track Ramp
through Kensal Green Junction
and then Stopped
at all Stations to Stratford
I use this line all the time and have been going back to when Silverlink who were part of National Express ran it. It was a very unreliable service in the Silverlink days. It has improved massively since London Overground took over.
Yes and fare evasion was also very high under Silverlink, mostly due to their ticket machines not working
Graham Rd Curve was handy for shuttling peaktime empty 317s between Liverpool St and their midday storage at Hornsey, back in the WAGN era \m/
Yes that’s what I thought of when it came to ECS movements along the Graham Road Curve :)
Brilliant video thanks!
I went to school in Gospel Oak from Camden Road in the 80s and it was always perilous accidentally getting on a Watford if it was already in the platform - we had to rely on those boards showing the stations propped out at the end of the platform.
There was like a slot on one of the canopy pilllars, so it stuck out like a semaphore signal.
Fond memories of looking out for B4 - the design of those trains looked just "right"! (I modded my model intercity carriages to have a paper B4 on the end, it was the closest I could get to how they looked!😂)
Noone seems to know this but there is a really great viewing point for the Camden curve at track level in the new development at Camden Market - in the food court near the toilets - theres a massive row of windows looking out towards Hawley Road.
Subscribed!
Thank you so much for the subscription! Those 501s were excellent looking trains I do agree, and I never knew that about the viewing point in Camden?! I should check that out when I’m back there for an upcoming video!
Great informative video.
Many memories of Kenton to Primrose Hill to my first 'proper job' at Chalk Farm. Until I realised that Met Line from Northwick Park to Finchley Road & Bakerloo from Finchley Road to Swiss Cottage followed by 31 bus to Chalk Farm was quicker and more frequent (and cheaper!!)
Often I was the only passenger alighting or boarding at Primrose Hill.
The 31 is horrible nowadays 😬 I’d rather use the DC service from Kenton to Primrose honestly!
AS A CHILD WE USE TO USE THE TRAIN SERVICE AT PRIMROSE HILL NEVER DID UNDERSTAND WHY IT CLOSED IN THE LATE 60`S
THANKS FOR LETTING ME KNOW I STILL THINK IT SHOULD BE REOPENED AND SERVE EUSTON TO WATFORD
There is empty trackbed between Highbury and Camden, though, with some thoughts of a service connection between HS2 under Primrose Hill and HS1 at King's Cross, running behind the Camden Town Stables.
Great video. Still use the DC line today after 20 years and didn't know most of the history that you covered, very interesting!
Thanks :D
Harlequin is a reference to the large shopping centre in Watford which is near Watford High Street Station. It was called the Harlequin until about 10 years ago but all the car parks in Watford are called Kings, Queens, Church, Palace etc
Interesting! I’d heard it was a mixture of the stations “Harlesden” and “Queens Park” but that does make a little more sense :D
Think the line came before the shopping centre? (Possibly Harlequin refers to something completely different)
@@harshilpatel684 it was nicknamed 1986-1997
@@somenorthlondoneraround the time the shopping centre was opened.
There is some thought going on of an outer circle at the Hertford distance providing an outer ring, similar to the Reigate line to the south.
Well presented, detailed and information. Nice!
Cheers :)
Current Shoreditch station is a new build on a new connecting curve. The old station was still in use as the terminus of the East London line until the switch to Overground.
Yep
I did the route on Saturday and it was great. It worked really well and loads of people liked it. I think in a sense I think it brings good connections for that little time. Although the lines are good separate as well. So it depends on where you were travelling and whether you would rather get to your destination quickly or you don't mind staying on the train because it would mean not changing.
Between Christmas 2022 and the New Year. Willesden to Stratford services operated from Willesden LL to Stratford via South Hampstead and I went on this route one day. Later speaking to a retired London Overground driver I know, he told me that he learned this route for stock transfers between the Watford Line and the rest of the LOR.
Excellent detailed video 👏
Thank you so much! :D glad you enjoyed it
Great video SNL. This somesouthlondoner will definitely use this as reference for my travels around the London/TfL network.
Cheers! :D
I was at University in the mid to late '70's I lived with my parents in Watford and traveled most days into Aldgate. or Aldgate East depending on which building I had to go to. I tried various ways of doing the journey. These included trying out the peak hour service Watford Junction to Broad Street. One use was enough to convince me not to do it again! The train took over an hour, as opposed to 45 minutes (including two changes) to go from WJ to Tower Hill, which I eventually settled on. Also the trains were awful, it was impossible to work on them, they shook about to much. The windows were so grimy that they were close to opaque.
Very interesting video. Interesting cut at 15:06
Great video!
thank you so much bud :)
From 1961 to 1965 i travelled from Hatch End to school. Usually to Queens Parkk but occasionally on a train that went via Willesden Low Level and then thru Kensal Rise to Brondesbury Prk. I think this train was specially times to take puplis to school as there were several near stations between Wilkesden and Camdeb Road tgat attracted students from stations between Willesden and Watford
Interesting. In the late 1980s there was a 'indicator' at the entrance to the DC lines platforms at Watford Junction which could be illuminated depending on destination. One of them was Stratford. Oh and believe it or not a locomotive hauled railtour worked the Graham Road curve towards Liverpool Street with a pair of 86/6s as some may recall.
Yes I think a few other railtours have used the Graham Road curve too!
@@somenorthlondoner indeed. 😉
This line could be extended to meet up the the end of the east london line at highbury and islington as there are already 4 tracks between highbury and camden road
LO has six 5-carriage Class 710/3 trains on the Watford DC line as well as the 4-carriage Class 710/2s.
On paper the /3s are for the NLL (seen very limited use on them so far though!) as the initial idea was to displace more 378s for the ELL but yes they do see use on the DC :)
I seem to recall a few services from Watford Junction to Broad Street via Gospel Oak in the morning rush hour when the LMS slam door stock was still running.
I worked near Broad Street in the mid-70s and would sometimes visit the station in my lunch hour. Even then, the place seemed very run down and semi-derelict though it was not finally to close for another decade until 1986. Some Watford services were then diverted to Liverpool Street (3-4 an hour?) through a new Graham Road chord off the North London line, but were not all that popular, as it was longer and slower. Finally, that service was reduced to rush hours only, and ended in 1992.
@@frglee
The Graham Road curve diverted trains into Liverpool Street which was already over-full. Trains would crawl from signal to signal.
Did use the Liverpool St to Watford Junction service, but only once as it was very slow as you state. I used it as a through ticket to Northampton from East London, and so that I didn't have to use Euston. My other choice was The train from South Bromley changing at Milton Keynes also long withdrawn now.
There was a train from Bromley South to Milton Keynes? Do tell me more! Services towards Northampton IIRC didn’t stop anywhere from Watford into London so not exactly like you could hop off the train from Northampton and then catch the stopper service to make some time back.
In the days before the Cal Sleeper became a hotel on wheels, expensive hotel at that!,I use to go up that DC line and catch it, the Sleeper,at Watford as there was little chance of having to share than if you got on at Euston.
Really? I’d have thought it would be the opposite! I guess there was no reservation system?
While I a fully agreeing, that a service in the original way will never come back, I do see some merit in extending some services of the East London line onto the Watford DC line. Capacity shouldn't be an issue in this case (at least if the additional platforms at Camden Road are reopened). If introduced, such a service would provide an useful orbital conncetion. (Maybe not for travelling the full length, but defenitively intermediate distances)
I had not lived in the UK for 20 years (left 1975) and I was back on business and had to go to a meeting on Bishopsgate. Easy I thought, dump the rental car near canonbury station, close to where my mum used to live to live and take the train to Broadstreet. Did I get a surprise at Canonbury station that morning, Broadstreet had been gone 8 years!
Oh dear 😂
That wouldn’t be convenient, but it does sound funny, sorry.😂
I did do half of the Willesden Junc LL to the North London Line. Only half of it the Hastings DMU rerailed. The joke was there was some poor member of the public who got on it at the LL station thinking it was going to Kensal Green. Did he get home late that day after having to be detrained and walked back to the LL station.
Oh gosh 😬
I heard about the weekend service to Stratford from W DC but unfortunately I didn’t have time to ride on it…
:(
I wonder if someone using Oyster or Contactless travelling on either day got charged the correct fare between certain stations? If you passed through Willesden Junction without the need to change trains, it was certainly convenient, but you would not have tapped the pink reader to alert the system that you were due the ‘avoiding Zone 1 fare… 🤔
Not too sure, I’m still on a Zipcard so I’d be no use haha
Watford DC also uses 5 car 710s. In fact the 5 cars are usually all on the DC.
Right now yes but officially they’re allocated the /2s as the /3s haven’t yet started working on the NLL
@@somenorthlondoner I don’t think they will officially be allocated for a long while yet.
I noticed your library shot of the train roof at Broad Street says it is Philadelphia in USA. Is the photo attribution wrong or is it a slip?
Didn’t notice that! Thanks for telling me :)
It's a slip. The photo attribution is quite correct.
There are several key ways to tell between the two:
1) Platform height - Broad Street (London) has much higher platforms compared to the rail-level height found in Philadelphia.
2) Shed geometry - Philadelphia is curved, London is angular.
3) Shed height - In its original multi-span form, Philadelphia was much lower than London.
4) Shed size - after its 1896 reconstruction, Philadelphia replaced its multi-span roof with a much larger single span (seen here). Incidentally, this was the largest single-span train shed ever, covering 16 tracks.
(Sorry, somenorthlondoner, just wanted to clarify a bit, there)
Ladbroke Grove wasn't caused by Railtrack?
Never get the first train out of Watford in the mornings. The train will be full of pigeons commuting into central London
If only the Northern City Line and its services were taken over by TfL then it would see a great improvement in how those stations are maintained. The out of date map signage is an embarassment.
The Great Northern services being taken over by TFL wouldn’t be a bad idea to be fair, plus rolling stock with 710-layout seating would handle the heavy loads that the lines in Moorgate can see regularly quite a bit better!
The line into Broad Street should have been kept and Incorporated into a new station in the Broadgate development. The Graham Road curve was a mistake - it was the wrong connection. Dalston Junction East Curve should have been put back.
I guess it could be seen as a wrong move though would we have seen the ELL in its current format which gets very heavy usage? That’s the thing when it comes to deciding whether or not Broad Street closing was a good idea. It might have been better to have expanded Liv St into it for more platforms although I think the problems more lie with the flat junctions into Liv Street rather than terminating capacity re what limits more trains running into it
That would have made a good Overground line.
It would have certainly made for an interesting one although I’m not too sure on whether or not a Broad Street to Watford service would be necessary given the changes we’ve seen to ticketing with Oyster etc since the services’ demise :)
Oerlican is prononced Erlikan. More here:-en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_electric_units
watford dc also uses class 378
On paper it’s now allocated /2s but they do stray out onto it yes
😊
:)