"How Amillennialism Just Might Convince You Of Postmillennialism" by Josh Howard
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- Dr Josh Howard walks through his latest article on the differences between Amillennialism and Postmillennialism, and how a consistent Amillennialism might lead to Postmillennialism.
www.eschatologymatters.org/ho...
Amen! I definitely have been convinced of postmillennialism. I was standing in the amil camp for a good bit, really hesitant to venture to posmil, but as I began to hear postmil exposited from Scripture and to see it in the Scripture myeself, I couldn’t deny it! Christ is king
I just do not see Post Mil in the scripture. Amil has some merit to it, but the more I read the Bible, the more I am convinced that Dispensational Pre-millennialism is true. The A-mil and Post Mil commentaries on Rev 19 and 20 just do not line up with scriptire IMO.
@@sanders194539 A lot of the conclusions are derived from how one exegetes scripture and what system is utilized. Dispensational vs a Covenantal system.
Voddie Baucham has a series on A- mil interpretation and it is excellent.
ua-cam.com/video/ux5AB5woSQw/v-deo.html
This is an excellent concept - it honestly was my Amil position that DID end me up over in the postmil camp, simply because of what you get at - the actual influence happening in the world. Thanks for making this, I'm saving this one.
Doing some serious reflecting, thinking, and analysis here. I think I'm currently straddling the line between optimistic amillennial and pessimistic postmillennial. It's not good to be in the middle of the road, so I'm going to be feverishly studying and researching this matter.
Thank you for continually setting a wonderful example in discussion, and providing leadership in conversation, conviction, and community!
Kind, encouraging words brother. Same could be said for you! Appreciate you 👊
@@eschatology_matters
So post mil and a mil teach the Trinity. Matthew 1: 18 and 20 the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant and fathered Jesus. God's natural law whoever gets the woman pregnant is the father of the child, period. Explain how only omniscient God the Father knows the day and hour and not omniscient God the Son and more importantly God the omniscient Holy Spirit. Your a deceived brainiac bro. Your conscience has been seared by a hot iron. God said thou shalt not kill? Is he a pacifist for life or Satan a non pacifist father of death? You should quit teaching bro.😎😁
Excellent article - thanks for sharing!
Your book is on my "to Buy" list when I'm off my book buying ban. Book worms know what I'm talking about. This argument reminds me of chapter five in Greg Bahnsens book "Victory in Jesus" where he argues virtually that the binding of Satan and the shift in power over to Christ must mean more than just heavenly victory. I'll admit that that small book was very convincing to me which lead me to consider Postmil as a viable options. As a long time Amil. this video hits home as the Binding of Satan has always felt half hearted to me in the Amil. system especially when considering the way the world was before Christ and the way the world is with Christ in power. To say that things are progressively getting worse and not better to a degree feels dishonest to me. Thank you for this video. It's encouraging no matter which view I land on.
Wonderful comment, ty!
Many thanks sir, and you’re spot on with Bahnsen. Hope you enjoy the book!
Men’s group at my church read that book.
What you’re talking about parallels the life of a believer over time. The “house” should/will look different five years down the road, as compared to when you were first saved. If the house is still in the same condition, one would be right to question.
Compare the disciples on the day of the Ascension to today. Have there been changes in the “house” since then? I would say emphatically yes.
One of the things that struck me from reading Bahnsen’s book (pg. 93): “whatever historical decline is seen in the missionary enterprise of the church and its task of edifying or sanctifying the nations in the word of truth must be attributed, not to anything inherent in the present course of human history, but to the unfaithfulness of the church.”
Were people more or less sinful, say for instance, at the time of the Tower of Babel than they are now?
People were just as sinful then as they are now and in need of the same Savior as we are.
I really enjoyed this!
Many thanks bro!
Outstanding comparison of A mill and postmill views I really appreciate The analysis
Great presentation
Amen Brother Josh! Thank you!
Excellent , relatively new to post-mill 😁your short treatise patched some rather problematic holes in the wall 😜😎😘TY PTL \õ/❤️🔥
Well done! Thanks.
Once again well done Josh. Not only in your content but the way this video was done. I love to listen to Doug read his blog but he needs to take a page from your book and put some pauses in and even utilize the fade screen new camera angle. Great job!
PREACH🔥🔥🔥🔥
Thanks for this. Interesting indeed.
I love having good conversations and making distinctions in theology and convictions.
At 3:45 you seem to contradict you point that you said a moment before.
Meaning (and I've heard this often and don't really buy your reason or others) but the story goes,
Someone says "I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible" and the retort, and yours was here, "that doesn't tell me much" and therefore that means someone needs to be more specific. Like "I'm a protestant, I'm a pre mill, I'm reformed, I'm complementarian, etc.
But at the minute mark above you then spin it when someone asks if someone is a Calvinists and they can't just say 'yeah'
But shouldnt they?
Well no. Of course not because there's about 10 flavors of Calvinist.
You seem and many others, seem to make the argument out of both sides of your mouth.
Anyway just an observation, not sure if you were meaning to or just comes across in the circles you travel in.
I guess it comes across when some object to a person just being a biblical Christian, that somehow doesn't give enough information.
Well then are you in a hurry to not ask a few questions?
Like 'how is someone saved from eternal death and hell'? Who created the world? How are we to live in this world with each other?
Questions like this are actually better instead of just hearing the person is a ' FILL IN THR BLANK ISM' to which you can either lock arms with or scoff at or call heretic.
I see it all the time online. Saw it all the time in seminary. And see it in many of my circles. It's sad. It can be arrogant. And ends up beating little fruit.
Have a good night
Excellent video Josh. This may seem to be a straw man response, in reality, one's eschatological position doesn't really mean anything as they are neither rewarded nor punished by God for taking a position. One's position helps them to view the Scriptures and one's perception of reality through the lens of their position.
Where is the article posted at? I couldn't find it, but want to forward it on to people I know who don't watch videos much.
www.eschatologymatters.org/
My pastor calls himself optimistic amil, which he further describes as "postmil that's lost its nerve." He sounds very postmil.
My question about the postmil position is this: I keep hearing from the postmil camp that there will be a "golden age" where Christianity is so dominant that idolatry, crime, and even wars will be vanishingly rare (in accordance crushing enemies, etc.). But the same folks say that the people will not be 100% Christian. Given that the crushing of enemies does NOT mean a 100% conversion, what scripturally necessitates the golden age? Why could Christ not come without that?
I should caveat my response by saying that I'm not fully convinced of Postmil yet, but as a long time Amil. I'm steeped in the literature at the moment and could produce an answer I believe would be fair. Speaking from the variety of Postmils such as Gentry, Bahnsen, Rushdoony Wilson and Durbin to be specific; the Postmil framework doesn't hinge on a 100% conversion rate but does claim a progressive increase throughout history that will one day be such that the number of the truly redeemed in the world will out number the none redeemed. Even by 1%. Think of the example of the mustard seed being the biggest plant in the garden. It does not negate other larger plants, but it was certainly the biggest is the point. The belief is such that this number of conversion in the world should and even demands that human culture see a real difference in justice, righteousness and general peacefulness. Some argue that we might be closer than we think depending on your inclusion of the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox into the total number. Even though I wouldn't include LDS and JWs into the mix, there is not doubting the LDS and JW culture has a positive influence in the world despite their bad theology. I could say more but this post I believe gets to the heart of your question, hopfuly 😅
@pinkdiscomosh2766 Thanks for the reply, but unfortunately it just moves the question for me. Why is it necessarily true that Christianity will be a majority, even if it is the largest group? Why is that (potentially smaller now) majority guaranteed to have a "golden age"? If all we're talking about is a general positive influence, then we could say that right now we have experienced it, but the expectation of all my postmil friends is a near-utopian future.
This is a great question, and I'm hoping to do a follow-up on the Golden Age soon 👍
I just do not see Post mil as scriptural. Scholars generally disdain Dispensational pre-mil, but from my own biblical studies, it seems to most plausible.
@@sanders194539 I find the relationship between Matthew 23-34 and the destruction of the temple in AD 70, plus the historical correlation between the beast and Rome/Nero, clear enough to rule out the pre-mil position.
Can someone inform me of the name of the song at the beginning?
"I Know My Redeemer Lives" by Tim Bushong
Maybe you can help me with this: isn't it a historically necessary postmil boundary marker to say that the millennium has NOT come yet? It seems that nowadays, postmils have borrowed a helping of amil theology by asserting that the millennium has already begun. I could be wrong though. I've claimed an optimistic Amilennial position for a while, with that (and disagreements with theonomy) being the only caveats that would keep me from being postmil
That's a great question-but in short, I do not think so. You'll find postil-associated voices in the past that speak of the millennium as a yet-future reality, and some that speak of the millennium and Golden Age in very separated terms (both of these are rare now). This seems to be part of that "ongoing conversation" (each view interacting with the other), that some of those boundary markers are becoming more consistent between the views (again, views that are both generally "postmillennial" at their core). Most Postmils today would affirm that the millennium began in Christ's first coming and consummates in His final return-though you may hear some back-and-forth on details such as the conclusion of the Jewish Age in AD70 and a future time of blessing (or Golden Age). But overall, the general structure or framework is mostly the same b/w contemporary Post and A in this regard.
If the resurrection has already occurred where are those dead now supposedly raised? Where is Jesus. Why is there so much perversion, wickedness, war, ungodliness in the world? What does our redemption really mean? Preterism is a depressing philosophy.
I think more a millennials would be postmillennial if those already in that camp didn’t make it seem as though theonomy was the necessary coinciding step. Not everyone is ready to go there.
The only alternatives to some form of theonomy are either some form of paganism or some form of secularism.
In 1 Corinthians 15:25, Paul refers to Psalm 8:6. The Psalm says that God gave authority to man to rule over everything. The first man, Adam, had that authority, but he handed it over to the devil. The perfect man, Christ, regained that authority, and he is using his authority to defeat all God's enemies. This do not mean all men will be saves at the end.
I believe the same weakness of Dispensationalism, is the that of Post Millenialism.
Which is, Dispensationalists claim that Amils (which I am) interpret the bible "Spiritually" while Dispys interpret the bible "Literally."
The biblical dichotomy found in scripture is EARTHLY/NATURAL fulfillments vs HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL fulfillments; BOTH Literal.
We find this principle in 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul contrasts Adam the "earthly" man and Christ, the "Heavenly" man and tells us
"The Spiritual does not come first, but the natural (earthly) and after that, the Spiritual (Heavenly)."
And because Dispensationalists do not understand that the EARTHLY/NATURAL promises WERE fulfilled completely (Joshua 21:45), ALL of the "Land, Seed, Blessing" Dispensationalists claim God still owes Earthly/Natural Israel, were already given, but they lost them, just like God said they would (Nehemiah 9, Deut 28), *they continue to look for "shadows," as Hebrews calls the Old Covenant promises*
*when the REALITIES promised ONLY to Christ and fulfilled ONLY in Christ ARE here* (Galatians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 1:20)
God had an earthly/natural people called Israel. They were in ADAM and the Old Covenant was "If a man DOES these things..."
They failed!
But the "Israel of God," which is the remnant of earthly Israel that "Obtained" what it sought for IN CHRIST (Romans 11:7) became the foundation for Christ's Church (Ephesians 2)
And these "Israel of God" (Jew and Gentile) *HAVE COME* to the HEAVENLY (and yes "Literal") JERUSALEM" (Hebrews 12:22)
While the Earthly/Natural Jerusalem BELOW is "In bondage."
The Old Covenant was an earthly/natural (fleshly) circumcision while the New Covenant form is "without hands, by the Spirit."
The Old Covenant earthly throne of David was "Cast to the ground" (Psalm 89) while Jesus's is NOW on the throne, in fulfillment of God's promise that David "Will never cease to have a descendant sitting on the throne."
*These are are all biblical examples of the reality of this biblical principle regarding earthly/natural first, then heavenly/spiritual realities*
At around 12:30, Josh distinguishes between the Amil and Post Mil view of the Kingdom, *and this is where I believe Post Mil makes the same mistake as Pre Mil Dispensationalism*
The error, I believe, is in interpreting what it means that "God's will is done "ON EARTH" as it is in heaven?"
What does that look like is the big question!
Josh said "The post mil position anticipates the gospel to advance in tangible ways in this world. As the outworking of God redeeming men and women, will progressively lead to a redeemed culture...." He refers to this gradual outworking as "Progressive Triumphs" (of the Gospel).
While Premil Dispys are looking for earthly/natural fulfillments that have already occurred, and do not recognize the very real, literal spiritual fulfillments and "better promises" that are NOW here, Post Mils see these Spiritual Fulfillment of promises as having an earthly/natural outworking.
*But there will not be ANY earthly/natural "outworking" of the Gospel on earth* At least not the way Post Mils look for them.
The fact that the Gospel IS triumphing and IS accomplishing "that which HE sent His word to do" and yet Christians are still "the scum of the earth" is yet another "paradox" of scripture.
The "Triumph" of the Gospel is not the redeeming OF THIS world, but the redemption of GOD'S ELECT OUT OF this world and INTO His Kingdom!
The binding of Satan is for a very specific purpose "that he may deceive the ethnos/gentiles no more."
>God had promised Abraham that he would be "the father of MANY nations."
>But for a time, God "Overlooked the ignorance of the gentiles" and "allowed them to go their own way "(Acts 17:30, 14:16)
>But when Jesus came, "the nations (gentiles) walking in darkness saw a great light" (the Gospel) (Isaiah 9:2)
>And the fulfillment of God's plan that the gentiles were fellow heirs with Israel came to pass (Ephesians 3)
Therefore, Satan can no longer hold those whose minds he has been blinding when THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL shines "into their hearts" and "sets the captives free" "transferring them out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light" ((2 Cor 4:4-6, 2 Timothy 2:26, Luke 4:18, Colossians 1:13)
*THIS IS the triumph of the Gospel* not the redemption and bettering of this world! (Which is STILL Satan's "house")
And God will use those whom HE has saved as "earthen vessels" to proclaim the Gospel to others, until ALL OF HIS ELECT are brought into the "ark" of Christ! This world WILL continue in darkness, and Satan will continue to be "The God of this world," but he has NO power to keep God's elect from leaving the kingdom of darkness and entering the kingdom of light!
And just as God would not bring destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of any righteous still in them,
And just as the farmer would not tear out the tares for the sake of the "Wheat" (Matthew 13)
So too, God will not bring judgement on this world until ALL of His elect are "rescued from the dominion of darkness."
THEN, destruction will come upon this corrupt world where "evil men wax worse and worse."
In mean time, Christians who are entering the Kingdom in the Spiritual realm, yet still existing in the earthly/natural realm, will by no means make THIS world "a better place to go to hell from."
Rather, we will continue to do the good works and preaching of the Gospel! (Ephesians 2:10, 2 Timothy 4:2)
We will "not lose heart, *EVEN THOUGH OUR OUTWARD MAN IS PERISHING* because the INWARD man is being RENEWED day by day" (2 Corinthians 4:16)
Because even though we suffer tribulations and "are counted as sheep for the slaughter" , yet we *ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS* (Romans 8:36-37)
And even though things OUTWARDLY look bad for us, yet INWARDLY we are being renewed and have God's peace,
we will continue to be "blameless and]harmless, children of God without fault *IN THE MIDST of a crooked and perverse generation* among whom you shine as lights in the world" (Philippians 2:15)
I would note that the only reason Christians "shine as lights in the world is BECAUSE the world is dark!
In Brief:
No, this is not about "the Strong man's house." It is STILL his house (His world)
But GOD'S property will be taken OUT OF the strong man's house and *GOD'S KINGDOM WILL BE GROWING*
The victory of the Gospel is the saving of God's elect OUT of the world, which God's word WILL accomplish (Isaiah 55:11)
NOT the redeeming OF this world.
And the "outworking" of the Gospel, will be a redeemed people, doing the works HE gave us to do, sharing the gospel, ministering to others, suffering for our faith, more and more, not less and less, being considered "the scum of the earth,"
*We are "the scum of the earth," "outwardly wasting away" AND "More than Conquerors" at the SAME time*
And it is in THIS condition that we await the FINAL redemption from God where Jesus repays his enemies with vengeance AND gives comfort to those who were troubled by His enemies (US) (2 Thessalonians 1)
Just my 2 cents!
Thanks for the clarification ‘in brief’…lol
@@andrewbrowne5557
Andrew, my comment is very brief considering what there is to understand about the errors of dispensationalism and the true hermeneutic found in scripture that Christians have not understood because of it's error.
The saying "If its new its not true" is true, but this is not new. Dispensationalism however is very new, relatively speaking.
For a more detailed explanation of understanding what "Literal" means in scripture and how to properly interpet the bible, you can find "The Hope of Israel" by Phillip Mauro (1929) free online.
@@rolysantos you pre-suppose much…and your lack of ability to recognize humor is glaring…
@@andrewbrowne5557
Actually Andrew, I got the humor.
And, I don't presuppose anything.
I was simply expounding on my comment.
But it seems you have presupposed much about me from a comment. Oh the irony!
@@rolysantos your pre-supposition is three fold in taking the time to actually type the words in the belief that you are imparting knowledge that I lack:1) the maxim regarding Truth not being new ( you forgot to add the corollary that if it’s new, it’s not True) 2) The historical fact of Dispensationalism ala Darby/Scofield being relatively new 3) my lack of literally knowing what literal (from the Latin litera, “what do these letters mean?”) literally means…I am relieved to learn that you do indeed have a sense of humor, and since you present as a sincere chap, I’ll just take your word for it, as it has yet to reveal itself to me…cheers!
What about satan being released in the last days? Postmil has no future tribulation.
Exactly, Post and Amil does not do Rev 19 and 20 justice IMO. The problem is, there are certain passages that modern scholars are afraid to exposite.
Straw man argument. There are plenty of amil and pre-mil folks raising their kids Biblically. Besides, I just dont see Post mil in the Bible.
Actually not… postmillennialism generally tilts towards full preterism, but not always! Most in the amil camp are partial preterists ! Also, most of the postmill brothers that I’ve met ( very high percentage) are Presbyterian but very few credo-baptists! Just some thoughts…
Riiiight.
Do tell me when our Lord's second coming, as described in Revelation 6, Matthew 24 and elsewhere, was literally fulfilled.
Do tell me when that literal thousand years of Christ ruling and reigning on earth occured.
When all of those Old Testament prophecies concerning this period were literally fulfilled.
What? You can't do it without allegorizing or spiritualizing them all away?
Maybe you think God, and by extension His prophets, need help in having what He has stated will happen come to pass?
You’re looking in the wrong places..we live in the little season and the scriptural and physical evidence is EVERYWHERE. The Holy Spirit will give you eyes to see if you earnestly seek the truth. Good luck with it!
The reason people can’t see it, is bc it isn’t a reality for them. They are still under the strong man, and not under the headship of Christ. When we are under His headship, He is our King, and we experience the Kingdom in the life that now is (simultaneously with those who are in heaven).
I'm Millennium Nowist and partial preterist - most of Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD, but the man of sin still sits in his temple (church) in Rome calling himself God (2Thess 2:4), the Vicar (replacement) of Christ, among dozens of others, equally as blasphemous.
I can never be post Mil because Jesus said the Kingdom has come, but you can't see it, or locate it on a map, because it is within you (those sealed by His holy Spirit). Entrance to the Kingdom is only by faith, not outward practices or appearances, that fool men, but not God. When Jesus comes, in fiery judgment, He will separate the wicked, and reward His Saints with resurrected, immortal bodies, release the whole creation from its imposed corruption (Rom 8:19-23), and hand over the completed Kingdom of God to the Father for eternity (1Cor 15:23-26). There can be no visible Kingdom before He Returns.
Where does one see the world becoming more “Christian”? The great apostasy continues. It began with the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church - idol worship through substituting names for the pagan gods with the names of Mary (since elevated to the throne of God), Jesus, Joseph and the Saints - and marked by its chief blasphemy of re-sacrificing the “literal body and blood of Jesus Christ” through pagan chants summoning down Christ from Heaven to slaughter Him again and again on the altars of her Babylonian high priests. In my opinion, Protestant denominations have been aligning with Rome’s apostasy through signing fellowship agreements, and by practicing her works salvation more and more (Lordship Salvation of Calvinism), which is no salvation. Many post Mils teach Lordship Salvation.
The last few years have demonstrated the strong delusion, and lack of faith in the Creator, that is pervasive over the whole earth’s population. Almost every church in my state closed their doors and huddled in fear, too (half never reopened). So I think Jesus is at the door, and that the god of this world is being allowed to make a final push to try and wrestle back control of the planet from Christ that he lost that day on Calvary, before he's disposed of for good.
Luke 17:20-21 KJV
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, *_The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:_*
[21] *_Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!_* for, behold, *_the kingdom of God is within you._*
You don't believe that Jesus is your savior and Lord?
Good luck with that. 😁
None of these silly categories and buzzwords are helpful..they all obfuscate and create a culture of speculative debate. Look at scripture, look at architectural history, look at the MELTED deserts of the world, look at orphan trains, look at insane asylums..the evidence is right in our faces. We live in Satans little season and many are waking up to this obvious truth. We don’t need titles or teams or camps or groups. Churchians and theologians are so used to dressing up, play-acting, and debating you have become the out-of-touch academics with hypothetical, speculative understandings of this world and life the Bible identified as Pharisees and Sadducee’s. All the name-dropping and book filled shelves won’t do $hit for you if you aren’t actually following Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, and seeking God’s knowable truth with eyes to see and ears to hear.