as a drummer for 20 yrs before I took up dance, the first day of dance lessons really blew my mind how "you people" need to learn how to count music. after I figured out that you can start on any down beat, ignore the actual beats in the measure, and just count the steps, all was good after that. so my suggestion is to tell musicians, stop counting the beats in the measure of music, just count your steps and start on any downbeat.
Exactly. The best way to teach WCS is the "up beat" / "down beat" aspects of the music in which the start of a pattern is a "down beat" at any point in the "set of 8". This down beat becomes the relative one for the pattern. For comparison, Salsa has an absolute one which requires dancers to synchronize their patterns at the beginning of every "set of 8" in the music.
Thanks for this video. As a trained musician, the discrepancy between 8-count (or 4-count) music and 6-count WCS steps has always been disturbing. The same goes for Country TwoStep (QQSS)[why, in fact, is it even called TWOstep, when the steps are organized in 3 or 6 beats??!!], Single Step East Coast Swing/Jitterbug (SSQQ), and Foxtrot (SSQQ mostly). If I listen and respond to the music too much, I tend to lose track of where I am in my step patterns. If I focus too much on counting my step patterns, I lose the excitement of responding to the music, and tend to experience the music as nothing more than a beat-generating device that I can dance to. The more symmetrical dances such as Cha Cha and NC2S are so much more natural and musically satisfying.
Musicality in dance is super hard. It is way easier in the dances like rumba that fit with the counts of a song. For the dances that don't, takes a long time. I would learn your patterns and know them well enough that you don't have to count them in order to do them. Then you can start to (in wcs) count straight 8's and in other dances count the same way. eventually it will make sense and you will start to find musicality. Try thiswww.westcoastswingonline.com/category/musicality/
As a leader, I never thought much about it and I’m a counter especially for 8-count+ patterns. I need to know where I am supposed to be in the count. For the basic 6-count patters, I follow the Megan rule of walks and triples. However if I had to count everything by 8s, as in your last example, I think I would move on to another dance. :)
Everyone has there own process 😊. Counting straight 8's is more for musicality than just doing your patterns. I think eventually you will not need to count at all 😊
I’m very interested to see following videos planned. I’m primarily a fusion dancer which doesn’t have a basic step as is more about connection and musicality, so just now getting into WCS I was confused about: thing I’m unsure of is the anchor step and it’s “necessity” and timing. When I watch pros in jack and Jill’s and such, I can’t really find the anchor most of the time… so it just seems like they’re doing fusion in a line. I’m trying to understand that to make sure I’m not butchering WCS when I dance it if the anchor is like… necessary for its like soul of WCS lol. Like could multiple 2 counts playing with musicality go for awhile before before finally anchoring later and still be considering WCS or would that be wrong
The basics and fundamentals of west coast swing are very important for you to dance like the pros later on. If you don't understand the counts of a pattern, you won't know how to take steps out and still be on time. The pros you see in jack & jils are so good they know exactly what they are leaving out and what they can put in and change. If you learn west coast swing from the basic on up it can be a very fun dance! The anchor step is important bc it reestablished your connection away from your partner. An anchor step is technically you bodies moving away from one another, in the higher levels it doesn't matter if they do footwork as long as they know the timing of that footwork takes. Like most dances, there are certain basics or set of basics that make a dance recognizable to people watching, as well as to the person you are dancing with. You can build on these patterns and create longer patterns before you anchor in between, but if you don't have the base pattern they may not know what your trying to do.
I'm intrigued to know as to why WCS was made as an 6 count pattern rather than 8 count. Plus at what stage and how do you start to 'extend patterns' to fit the music as many of the Pro's do, which make me wonder why not just learn extended patterns in the first place. Confused or what............that's me.
From what I have learned so far from workshops, podcasts and talking to well-versed people: WCS does not have a basic step like a lot of dances do. In fact, the best way to think about the structure of WCS is in 2-beat increments as Brian and Megan showed here. Robert Royston also boils it down that. When we talk about "basics" we usually talk about passes, pushes (usually 6-count) and whips (usually 8-count) but every pattern can be extended by adding more 2-beat increments. We inherited this structure from Lindy Hop, where having off-phrase patterns was actually pretty useful, since in a lot of the songs the phrases ended with a 2-beat (or 4-beat) musical break. Hence the name push-break, where you would end by actually waiting for the next phrase to start. As for teaching, in the beginning there's so much to take in. No way people trying to figure out steps, triples, building connection, maintaining momentum and keeping a nice frame will be able to add paying attention to music to that list. We can talk about that once they can keep a conversation going while doing a sugar push without messing up their timing.
As to why wcs starts with 6 count patterns is a mystery to me. But the reason you don't just jump into the deep end is bc all of the extended patterns and fun stuff are based of the fundamental patterns. If you skip them you won't fully understand everything later.
Hilarious. I took my first East Coast Swing class yesterday and whatever you said here for WCS aligns for the big question I had and couldn't fit the question in around the great hour lesson. HOW DO YOU GET 6 BEATS TO 4/4 MUSIC??? So I think you would say 6-beat modulates around 2 bars of 4/4 timing. I know just enough piano to be really bothered by this. Thanks for the great share.
I'm a musician, and my wife was a ballerina. We tried WCS (20 years ago) and then moved on. We dance to the song's melody. We don't dance patterns to the "counts". Unfortunately(?), unless it's a waltz, the melodies tend to follow the 8-beat phrasing' so we do essentially no 6-beat patterns. We are almost always in 8. I know. Not real WCS but our version. Anything you can do in 6 can be extended to 8. Or cut to 4. I really do not understand why the basic WCS steps (exclude the whip and variations) are in 6. How did that happen? Could't Skippy count? Or was Fred Astaire's "magic steps" the driver?
Swing was in general is 6 count basics. East Coast Swing single time swing etc. West Coast swing evolved from versions of other types of swing. Therefore 6 count basics. Hey is doesn't matter as long as you all are happy. 😃
Like most swing dances the pattern and the time signature of the music don’t line up. High level dancers change those patterns so much so they match the music and break the patterns. I just kept counting the 6 patterns and stayed with the beat of the music
For musicians having 8 count music with 6 count patterns is hard for them. If you don't have a problem with it, then you may not need this video. Ecs and Wcs have a lot of 6 count patterns which means that it is hard to stay on phrase to a song. It takes 4, 6 count patterns to be back on phrase. If you have ever had to choreograph a routine to a piece of music, this will help.
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THANK YOU! I've been doing WCS for a couple of months now and this has been driving me crazy.
Haha it drives a lot of people crazy.
as a drummer for 20 yrs before I took up dance, the first day of dance lessons really blew my mind how "you people" need to learn how to count music. after I figured out that you can start on any down beat, ignore the actual beats in the measure, and just count the steps, all was good after that. so my suggestion is to tell musicians, stop counting the beats in the measure of music, just count your steps and start on any downbeat.
Exactly. The best way to teach WCS is the "up beat" / "down beat" aspects of the music in which the start of a pattern is a "down beat" at any point in the "set of 8". This down beat becomes the relative one for the pattern. For comparison, Salsa has an absolute one which requires dancers to synchronize their patterns at the beginning of every "set of 8" in the music.
Thanks for this video. As a trained musician, the discrepancy between 8-count (or 4-count) music and 6-count WCS steps has always been disturbing. The same goes for Country TwoStep (QQSS)[why, in fact, is it even called TWOstep, when the steps are organized in 3 or 6 beats??!!], Single Step East Coast Swing/Jitterbug (SSQQ), and Foxtrot (SSQQ mostly). If I listen and respond to the music too much, I tend to lose track of where I am in my step patterns. If I focus too much on counting my step patterns, I lose the excitement of responding to the music, and tend to experience the music as nothing more than a beat-generating device that I can dance to. The more symmetrical dances such as Cha Cha and NC2S are so much more natural and musically satisfying.
Musicality in dance is super hard. It is way easier in the dances like rumba that fit with the counts of a song. For the dances that don't, takes a long time. I would learn your patterns and know them well enough that you don't have to count them in order to do them. Then you can start to (in wcs) count straight 8's and in other dances count the same way. eventually it will make sense and you will start to find musicality. Try thiswww.westcoastswingonline.com/category/musicality/
As a leader, I never thought much about it and I’m a counter especially for 8-count+ patterns. I need to know where I am supposed to be in the count. For the basic 6-count patters, I follow the Megan rule of walks and triples. However if I had to count everything by 8s, as in your last example, I think I would move on to another dance. :)
Everyone has there own process 😊. Counting straight 8's is more for musicality than just doing your patterns. I think eventually you will not need to count at all 😊
I’m very interested to see following videos planned. I’m primarily a fusion dancer which doesn’t have a basic step as is more about connection and musicality, so just now getting into WCS I was confused about: thing I’m unsure of is the anchor step and it’s “necessity” and timing. When I watch pros in jack and Jill’s and such, I can’t really find the anchor most of the time… so it just seems like they’re doing fusion in a line. I’m trying to understand that to make sure I’m not butchering WCS when I dance it if the anchor is like… necessary for its like soul of WCS lol. Like could multiple 2 counts playing with musicality go for awhile before before finally anchoring later and still be considering WCS or would that be wrong
The basics and fundamentals of west coast swing are very important for you to dance like the pros later on.
If you don't understand the counts of a pattern, you won't know how to take steps out and still be on time.
The pros you see in jack & jils are so good they know exactly what they are leaving out and what they can put in and change.
If you learn west coast swing from the basic on up it can be a very fun dance!
The anchor step is important bc it reestablished your connection away from your partner.
An anchor step is technically you bodies moving away from one another, in the higher levels it doesn't matter if they do footwork as long as they know the timing of that footwork takes.
Like most dances, there are certain basics or set of basics that make a dance recognizable to people watching, as well as to the person you are dancing with. You can build on these patterns and create longer patterns before you anchor in between, but if you don't have the base pattern they may not know what your trying to do.
I'm intrigued to know as to why WCS was made as an 6 count pattern rather than 8 count. Plus at what stage and how do you start to 'extend patterns' to fit the music as many of the Pro's do, which make me wonder why not just learn extended patterns in the first place. Confused or what............that's me.
From what I have learned so far from workshops, podcasts and talking to well-versed people: WCS does not have a basic step like a lot of dances do. In fact, the best way to think about the structure of WCS is in 2-beat increments as Brian and Megan showed here. Robert Royston also boils it down that. When we talk about "basics" we usually talk about passes, pushes (usually 6-count) and whips (usually 8-count) but every pattern can be extended by adding more 2-beat increments. We inherited this structure from Lindy Hop, where having off-phrase patterns was actually pretty useful, since in a lot of the songs the phrases ended with a 2-beat (or 4-beat) musical break. Hence the name push-break, where you would end by actually waiting for the next phrase to start. As for teaching, in the beginning there's so much to take in. No way people trying to figure out steps, triples, building connection, maintaining momentum and keeping a nice frame will be able to add paying attention to music to that list. We can talk about that once they can keep a conversation going while doing a sugar push without messing up their timing.
As to why wcs starts with 6 count patterns is a mystery to me. But the reason you don't just jump into the deep end is bc all of the extended patterns and fun stuff are based of the fundamental patterns. If you skip them you won't fully understand everything later.
Isn't this true of single and triple time swing as well? I only hear people speak of it in regard to WCS.
Yep east coast swing is the same way.
Hilarious. I took my first East Coast Swing class yesterday and whatever you said here for WCS aligns for the big question I had and couldn't fit the question in around the great hour lesson. HOW DO YOU GET 6 BEATS TO 4/4 MUSIC??? So I think you would say 6-beat modulates around 2 bars of 4/4 timing. I know just enough piano to be really bothered by this. Thanks for the great share.
Yes! You're struggle is super common among people who know music. That's why we made the video! I'm so happy it was helpful -B
I'm a musician, and my wife was a ballerina. We tried WCS (20 years ago) and then moved on. We dance to the song's melody. We don't dance patterns to the "counts". Unfortunately(?), unless it's a waltz, the melodies tend to follow the 8-beat phrasing' so we do essentially no 6-beat patterns. We are almost always in 8. I know. Not real WCS but our version. Anything you can do in 6 can be extended to 8. Or cut to 4. I really do not understand why the basic WCS steps (exclude the whip and variations) are in 6. How did that happen? Could't Skippy count? Or was Fred Astaire's "magic steps" the driver?
Swing was in general is 6 count basics. East Coast Swing single time swing etc.
West Coast swing evolved from versions of other types of swing. Therefore 6 count basics.
Hey is doesn't matter as long as you all are happy. 😃
Like most swing dances the pattern and the time signature of the music don’t line up. High level dancers change those patterns so much so they match the music and break the patterns. I just kept counting the 6 patterns and stayed with the beat of the music
There are many ways to dance to music. You find the one that makes sense to you 😊
I’ve never noticed simply because my counting is problematic to begin with😹💃🏽
Counting is very hard, if you can start with 2 beat increments it might help!
👏👏👏👏
I guess this never bothered me because I learned 2step first. 😂
Haha it doesn't bother everyone thankfully. It mostly bothers musicians.
I taught dance, East and West Coast Swing, Lindy Hop and waltz and for years and you guys are confusing me.
For musicians having 8 count music with 6 count patterns is hard for them. If you don't have a problem with it, then you may not need this video. Ecs and Wcs have a lot of 6 count patterns which means that it is hard to stay on phrase to a song. It takes 4, 6 count patterns to be back on phrase. If you have ever had to choreograph a routine to a piece of music, this will help.
Should have switched the student to polka!
Haha