Preach Reacts to Max's Take on Mythic Raiding
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Mike reacts to Max's thoughts on Mythic Raiding in WoW.,
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Another bonus to low-player-count raiding that I always liked was that it keeps raiding player ratios a lot closer to dungeon/leveling content. Back when I played WoW I always thought it was ridiculous how 1/5th of a dungeon group was filled by the tank slot, but then when it came to endgame, in a 25man raid you only usually needed 2 (maybe 3) tanks instead of 5. I think that contributes a lot to tank scarcity in dungeons/small content since they look at the squeeze at max level and decide to level something else instead. In 10 mans you still had a little bit of ratio shifting (3 healers instead of 2/ 5 dps instead of 6) but it wasn't nearly as bad as the tank situation in 25mans.
The ratio in 10 players raiding was pretty much the same as dungeon. You had 2 tanks so 1 in 5 (with 1 going dps when only 1 was required). You had 2 to 3 healers depending on the fight (1 dps could go healer for more healing intensive fights usually a moonkin or spriest cause the gear was similar) so you could run with 1 in 5 main healer.
Warhammer Online had 6 man for hard PvE. 2 tank, 2 dps, 2 heals. I always thought that was the best setup.
18:30 there was a dark legacy comic where all of the DPS were the same they were perfectly balanced perfectly equal... and the warriors got upset because they were on the bottom.
They should still be rename to Battlers, just so they're on top of the DPS charts.
@@LukasLLM Armsman
I think a key difference between FF and WoW has to do with the 'feeling' of endgame. Ultimate fights are a love letter to hardcore players, but they're very much optional content. Mythic in wow is almost like an expectation. If you're not raiding mythic, you're either too casual or just 'bad' in the eyes of many. Which of course stems from the fact that there simply isn't anything substantial to do outside of The Trinity. (Raids, PvP, M+)
Savage on the other hand has that lower social barrier to entry with 8 people, but it's also content that can potentially cater to more solo oriented players given how dance-like Final Fantasy is. Lots of individual responsibility and awareness that goes into the execution and less mandatory verbal communication between party members, which makes most savage content puggable a few months in - plus there are learning parties a plenty in Party Finder. Mind you, puggable does not mean 'easy'.
Also you get raid lockouts in World of Warcraft. As far as I know you don't have an echo. Consumables and item preparation is a lot more time consuming in World of Warcraft.
so true, and I'll also add the game designer's philosophy on raid finding will also permeate into the player base
WoW team constantly had the philosophy of: if players are being matchmade, the raid _must_ be designed for any pug to defeat it within a fair number of tries - WoW players were trained to see all queue-able content as easy (with toxic expectations of an immediate win)
In FFXIV, matchmaking isn't just for some "LFR" version of raids/dungeons. The devs don't nerf their content into the ground because pugs took a dozen tries instead of a couple. Players will learn and improve over time, not only doing the fight but also teaching it to others.
What a concept: use matchmaking to help players find each other and group up for content _without_ feeling the need to strip all challenge down to the lowest common denominator
@@Rhodair That's not true tho... "matchmaking" means you queue up for it right? Nobody queues in the duty finder for Savage or Extreme. People use the party finder for that just how people in WoW use the party finder to pug harder content. Only thing people queue up for in FF are dungeons and normal trials/raids all of which are extremely easy so people can experience the story even if they're bad.
@@godhand2018 Pretty sure you can queue up for savage in the standard duty finder too.
@@aliciafraser1835 Yeah you CAN do that but nobody does. If you wanna do savage the best thing to do is get a static or do it with your FC. Second best option is pug it in party finder. I don't think I've ever heard of a single person that queued up for a savage or extreme. I can't even imagine the shit parties you would get or how long the queue would take (if you even manage to find 8 people queueing for it).
I’m pretty sure this guy tried to sell me a fake Rolex on the pier
Putting the roster together shouldn't be substantially more difficult than actually doing the raids. Making guild leadership miserable is not a recipe for success.
tbh it is the reason why most companies pay good managers a lot of money. Managing is many times harder than doing.
Making guild leadership miserable is what basically killed my old guild. Then I quit playing WoW entirely.
My RL is being driven to madness and insanity this last tier. Trying to recruit for a 20 man roster Is just ridiculous. Bring back 10 man raids
@@premejon8300 Did you even watch the video? 10 man raids with this many classes and specs would just lead to too many classes/specs being left out of the group for various reasons. The solution is not lowering group size, the solution is cross realm from the beginning of a new tier, cross faction groups and making mythic lockouts the same as heroic lockouts.
@@kelly89420 yeah no, rather not play with 20 and play with 10.. if u have ever had to recruit or manage a team of 20 you’d agree for the most part.
I remember my old Heroic guild used to have like 5 warriors, 2 tanks, 2 furies and 1 Arms and we cheesed through some content, by constantly spamming Rallying Cry through phases where there's massive damage outputs, like a few of the phases in Unat's in fight. It was quite wild really, because we never though that it would help and that it was a DPS thing, but we basically just double Rallying cry and if we have that Rallying cry Azerite power chosen, it's OP. Since then, whenever we cannot progress on a boss, they will bring like 3-4 warriors or even some classes that can stack AOE defensives like Tranquilities or Spirit Links. Fun times
Rally doesn't stack?
@@wapniak666 Sorry I mean like 1 after another.
I've played WoW since vanilla and have only played horde 3 times for no more than an expansion or less each time for the sole reason of having access to an EXTREMELY large player base for building PUG raids or mythic content guilds for sales to make gold. Ironically I've always disliked horde as a faction and all of their major cities, hubs, characters and quest chains. Besides my preference for alliance races on whole, the city layouts and aesthetics are a thousand times more pleasing to be in. Even as recently as BFA, Boralus Harbor vs that awful pyramid.
My guild has been an AotC only guild since Tier 1 of Legion. We progress with a core group, then go back and help everyone else get AotC, then just do alt runs and crap until the next patch. Shadowlands changed this for us because the patches have been SO long with what feels like SO little to do and most of us have already quit or are facing burnout. We normally get our first AotC with 15-20 people. This tier it was 10 people. We went back and did the carry runs, one carry per week because we only had our core team at 10 people. Now for the first time, we have stepped into Mythic JUST for something else to do. We coordinated with another guild on our realm who are facing the same struggles and got a 20 man for Mythic. But because we have EXACTLY 20 players, every week we end up having to PUG 1-3 spots. If they would just lift the stupid faction barrier then we wouldn't have this problem. I've watched at least 5 of the best players between our two coordinating guilds faction and server transfer to horde realms to get more opportunities. It's frustrating
Thats sounds soooo fun, what a great game. But seriously i feel for you its rough out there in Azeroth
@@morals-R-life crazy part is we didn't have this much trouble back when the realm was just Elune. Then Elune/Gilneas. Now it's like 4-5 different servers merged into one and deader than ever
12:20 lol imagine having enough ppl on the server that you A. have enough ppl B. are able to cycle through ppl C. not beeing glad that at least the subpar players are super dedicated and are always there so that you at least get 20 ppl together to raid. Blizzards Servers are the reason why people dont do mythic because so many servers are just dead
when they were talking about balance it was about dps classes only. as a healer I haven't felt balance for over 9 years
Unfortunately, nobody cares about healers. They're invisible until they make a single mistake or the tank dies and blames you (even if he aggroed the entire instance after you said "oom").
Really? Legion was so balanced healer wise that I played almost of them
the illusion of choice. in wow there is only 1 correct choice. picking the wrong talent and class means you dont get that invite to raid.
NA Alliance GM here. Trying to prog through mythic and currently on Painsmith.
God help you if you aren't on Stormrage, and even then it's a struggle to pull 20 people at times. Couple that with a virtually non existent pools of players to recruit from, let alone someone that doesn't want to bind to a 5/10 lockout for prog.
Everything that Max says here needs to happen. There's already mechanics to do Hall of Fame and world first properly without these changes affecting anything.
My guild is trapped on the one low pop server that didn't get merged. As one of the best guilds on the server, despite only raiding 1 night a week, because we could only get 20 people at all at the start of the expansion. I've since left but now they only raid about once every other week because they just don't have enough people to raid half the time.
I get the flexibility argument with talents, and on paper I like the idea more than what XIV did, but in practice I despise how talents have worked in WoW for a very long time.
In my experience it's been the same ever since 20-man was implemented, there's always a core of 15 very reliable and good players, and then there's the last five who're either not very good at their class, unreliable or the social equivalent of nails on a chalk board, or a combination of those three. Every guild I've been in has been broken by those last five players.
I've experienced the opposite!☹ 15 decent players and 5 really good players, with the subsequent loss of the 5 really good players to a guild with better progression than ours....
That is exactly what killed my guild. We were Alliance. We had a group of 20, but we had some people that for whatever reason just could NOT manage Painsmith intermissions on mythic. Officers talked about replacing them, so they sat themselves, essentially. We lost four people immediately. Two were healers. Because Alliance population is just getting worse and worse it became impossible to recruit reliable people to fill the roster. Felt like every time we finally got back to 20 people one of the trials would bail and we'd be back to recruiting again. Eventually our officers just got sick of spending hours upon hours a week looking for replacements, so they disbanded the guild.
Mike...when was the last time you *chose* a talent and the encounter didn't choose for you? Some dev a long time ago said something about "if you always have it when you need it, why not just always have it". The current talent system is complete rubbish, not that the old was great or better, but talents need improvement.
But it did use to be good back in like mop. Reason being it was designed completely different, 4/6 ouf your talents were literally just utility, your class was complete without the need of talents, which made it so you had such a wide range of possibilities for change depending on the fight, the 2 performance enhancing ones, while admittedly didn't change as much from fight to fight, still had different uses for different fights for most specs. The problem you're pointing out comes with the fact that since WOD, pretty much all of your talent rows are performance enhancing and your character is barren without them, couple that with wild imbalance and suddenly there's barely any reason to ever change talents.
@@henriquerodrigues7795 MOP class design was great, I had heard that the class designer left WoW before WoD and things were drastically changed as kind of an FU to him because he had such a strong opinion on how classes should be, but never really got that confirmed.
Maybe I'm crazy, but outside of a few people I knew, most people identified themselves by Class not by their Spec (I remember Hansol the Fire Mage being the exception to this), so they'd just play the Spec that made the most sense in the content they were playing (PvP, PvE, or whatever), so really it's not about balancing every spec for PvE, it's about balancing the "best" spec for it. So while it's a challenge, I'm not sure it's as hard as Max says.
I kind of like the 12 size LotRO does with the typical wow configuration plus one or 2 for buffs/debuffs because they have a support role. Granted it isn't hard to just fill those extra spots with DPS to brute force instead.
Personally I would love to have it so the raid is tuned for 10 people super tightly... if you do it with 10 people you get the mount drop chance the extra ilvl the achi... but instead of making various difficulties you just allow it so that up to 20 people go in... it would allow casuals to pug it for the baseline rewards and it would teach them mechanics with a lower individual responsibility and as they become more confident with the boss fight they can try for the 15man achievement and finally the hardcore 10 man achievement. One tuned boss with flexible raid size and rewards based on the size of the group you enter with (could even keep the reward the same 2 items for 10 people or 2 items for 20). i absolutely hate doing different difficulties of a boss to realise that a mechanic isn't even in on this difficulty.. also really dislike having to specify what difficulty i did the boss... instead of saying i did nzoth mythic and having no similar experience so someone who did nzoth in lfr... you just say i did nzoth and it would allow blizzard to craft a singular better experience...
you can just say 'guys we aint even close to killing it with 10 people before the reset lets get berty and jeff in to make the whole damn thing easier so we can get some loot and maybe kill it next week'
Get rid of all the hoops you need to jump through to be ready for mythic raiding and more people will do it.
What hoops? Some players in Echo were 237 ilvl when they cleared 10/10 Mythic Sanctum. Get good.
@@rudy1999 Maxed soulbinds, high level conduits, correct max ilvl legendaries, getting lucky with your shard and dom socket drops (Echo had to swap benches because of shard drops remember) and you have to do M+ to be able to raid in current wow to keep your Ilvl topped up, if you find it shit and boring you wont be able to do mythic unless you wait months of heroic drops.
On top of this, buying tokens or grinding boatloads of gold for either BoEs or consumables.
@@rudy1999 Imagine thinking I'm just talking about ilvl...
@@rudy1999 I wonder if other players will happily take you in when they're fully kitted out. They totally won't call an unprepared player a liability. People never do that. And there's nothing at stake here anyway, right?
Also, coops? More like COPES. B-) hahaha
@@adamf7769 But you have all that now. 250+ ilvl and people still can't clear mythic raid. Can you stop blaming the game for your own failures?
Cant mess with your talents as a Black Mage in FFXIV, but you can't mess with your talents as a Mage in WoW either, because for some reason one talent in every row is just randomly 10% better than anything else.
That’s what I was thinking. There were WOW players, FAR better than myself, that did all the math and testing to create these specs, so in general, at least for a more casual player like myself, there was basically one spec because everyone used to same one. Essentially.
Yea just the illusion of choice. FF14 was just like, people will math out the best talents anyway so why waste dev time on trying to create and balance all these talents. Wow hasn't really had real player choice in talents in a long long time.
@@simonm1233 I agree. There is still job imbalance, but it’s pretty damn close.
Oh god, that Halfus comment is giving me 'Nam flashbacks. I screamed so hard at one of my raiders when we wiped because he wasn't hit capped and his interrupt missed.
15 to 20 should be a viable range. For all middle of the pack guilds, can do more than heroic but slower mythic, its hard to keep an active 20 man roster. I've seen to many raids called because we can't get above 17 people. I realize there is tuning issues but at least after the first 100 are kills are made open it up to a range of player numbers.
The roster boss is brutal, because if you are having roster problems, it likely means that the players you DO have, are WAY better than what your progress shows. So players looking for a guild of equal skill level, will not consider your guild, because the progress makes you look worse than you really are, when the roster was the issue, and not the gameplay.
Exactly this tbh, had an old guild of mine that would be comfortably clearing a large portion of mythic but were stuck recruiting heroic tier players
yep i was in guild clearing half the mythic raid the problem was never in player skill for us it was in the fact that almost every raid we didn't have enough people to play because they had always some kind of home emergency or something happend like 1 hour before raid...
then we were stuck with people who cleared HC raid for the 3 time in their life just to have 20 people and do some mythic raiding
no one is talking about that why?
When he was looking at the realms: Stormrage on alliance is the best realm for alliance.... but it's still really really bad.
We couldnt even get people to show for basically free aotc carries.
I swapped to A52 horde and in a week went 8/10M 🤣
Really miss 10 raiding or even hard 5man that isn't a time trial which has also been largely lost as a content form due to M+. The reason why I prefer smaller raid size is because it lets them both be more creative with fights, but also each player has a larger role. It also lets me play with my actual friends and acquaintances, and not a bunch of smaller group islands within the raid which tend to happen otherwise.
For me having a strict balance approach for competition just isn't worth the sacrifice for the game as a whole, but I know it is for others. I think somehow they need to find a path for both or else drop one of those avenues and just say, this game is not for you, which isn't ideal. There is absolutely a divide though because just think about the amount of resources they need to spend on balancing the hardest mode - you can say it's because of so many specs, but it is corraborated with the need for tight balance (zerk timers, week 1-2 undergeared players, etc) in the competitive pve aspect as well. If there was no need to balance as tightly, well then you lose a lot of issues holding you back from fixing classes etc. For some, again that's a worthwhile tradeoff, others not.
It's a tangent but I personally believe a lot of the dissatisfaction with classes that you hear about, stem from this tightrope-walk they have to do; it's not lack of creativity or anything, it's that they can't develop interesting class mechanics and at the same time maintain balance and difficulty. They have to relax at least one of those, and currently they've relaxed creativity.
I wasn't in your chat at the time, but I played Horde because that's what you did if you wanted to raid seriously. I started the game on Alliance, I played Alliance and raided as Alliance for years... but eventually the discrepancy between Horde and Alliance was just to much.
Ditto, pugging m+ as alliance outside prime time is a nightmare :(
I have been on alliance for several years. In shadowlands I finally went to horde and the difference in night and day. I would love to go back and play on alliance, but there is no point now due to the population disparity. Despite my old realm having roughly a 2:1 ratio in favor of alliance, I have seen more horde pugs from that realm than I did as alliance in BfA.
Got forced to horde in bfa and guild broke before first raid was finished on heroic. Came back to Shadowlands and GM went full retard elitst meta during mythic and was no place for me in his eyes. No more horde ever again.
I am not a perfect viewer of all this since I left wow years ago, but I’m a firm believer that bloodlust / heroism / time warp / whatever the pet one was, should never have been included in the game. Because any ability that says I have to have this person is a failing.
Ffxiv actually ran in to this exact issue after heavansward when the astrologian was added. They had a card that used to have the effect “increases damage dealt by the allied party member” this could be spread to the party at a reduced strength, enhanced on a single person or have its duration extended. Thus the Astro became mandatory in basically every group. It didn’t really matter that they weren’t needed for clears. No one wanted to go without the balance card since it was absurdly strong. There also used to be a semi forced synergy between bard and dragoon. Dragoon would put a piercing debuff that made bards and themselves hit harder and their crit buff made bards get way more procs. Plus both of their raid buffs were synced up perfectly making them a sort of package deal back in the day. Square got rid of this and despite not being done perfectly it has overall improved class balance now that things like that don’t exist
@@SH1NK1R01 Yeah I miss the days of having cards for specific purposes like ewer being able to give other healers MP, or speed buff monks to the point where they are constantly out of TP lol. I think that response to those problems was the right one though, take it out of the game and it helps the spread of jobs getting into content. I think about bloodlust the same way, when it was just the horde and ally shamans in 25 man raids ( the amount in BC aside from ZA and Kara) it wasn’t a huge deal to have a shaman in the mix. Then expansions later they go on this purge of class buffs like Gotw and Fort and pally blessings ( miss you guys ) but they leave in the bloodlust they could have easily pruned it there but they chose not to lol.
@@kthomas107t And then thay added back the mage, war and priest buffs, and let the monk and DH debufffs. Which already forces you to play with 5 mandatory classes in a 20 player environment, the mage already having Time Warp.
I mean yeah, FFXIV does have less of that talent sort of customization (really none), but I think it works in its favor honestly. Customization is really good in games that are built for either single or small teams experience. When you have to balance it out with 10-20 plus people, I find it's much more difficult to work that out. I can obviously be wrong in some cases, just my thoughts.
Where FFXIV lacks in customising it gains in balance. Wow's system allows for a meta and if your class isn't in that meta, regardless of how fun it is to play, you're fucked.
@13:30 Size is not the problem. MMOs are a social hobby. The game needs to have concepte to ease players into groups. Vanilla WoW did that through players being in danger or rather weak alone. That was fine for 2004. Today an MMO should hace rocksteady concepts to reliably and systematically bring players together. For example an AR minigame in the realworld and double XP or the like for players being grouped and in physical proximity. The gameplay loop HAS to have room for socializing. No fucking timers, ever. There has to be pauses in the gameplay loop to socialize. But this feels like wasting time, if there is no social connection. The first thought of a new MMO should be: how do I get players to socialize? And then should come gameplay. Playing for player power should be just one way to play the game
Given the population drop, the lower player requirements would actually be to WoW's benefit.
The drop is small.
@@lmaolmfao7590 oh, you innocent, innocent child
I think 8 is the optimal number.
2 Tanks: Enables the integration of tank swap and supporting tank functions.
2 Healers: Allows for synergistic healing methods [Direct + Shield, Hot + Shield, Direct + Hot, Mit + Shield, etc]
4 DPS: Give good variety without making it feel too generic on comp [depending on over-all class/archetype selection, I usually operate with the notion a good RPG has at least 8-10 damage archetypes. BARE minimum]
Any more tanks would feel redundant without doing raid room splits, essentially breaking the comp in half or thirds. Any more healers would somewhat imply healing as a role is weak and requires too much uptime without any fun of being able to deal some damage yourself & could provide hardships in smaller group form content. As mentioned, too many DPS makes for a bland "feel or grit" to the comp, making is feel very samey and uninspired.
So basically be like FF14.
@@cattysplat Or any of the dozens of other games who use divisible by 4 group sizes, yeah. [tank, healer, 2 dps] basic group. larger scale content more "units" of that structure.
Preach: i hate it when People say "certain" people aren't playing their spec properly.
Also Preach: *"certain"* websites...
He is right tho.
Those websites do it on purpouse, when people say certain for other people's mistakes that dont do on purpouse its different
@@SapoQLxd rustig walter, tis maar een grapje
The raid size should be double the size of the dungeon group size. Of any mmo. and maybe 3x or 4x of the dungeon size for raids that are guild run affairs not simply teams.
I always thought alliance/horde should be something you opt into like a Grand Company or Covenant
arbitrarily splitting the player pool for raids, dungeons, AH, speaking to each other, etc. just seemed like an MMO continuously shooting itself in the foot
I know my personality isn't common and lots of people enjoy tribalism, but I never got into the whole "For the Horde/Alliance" chants Blizzard or players did - competition is fine, but there was so much divide at times it'd turn into animosity
It made sense years ago with Warcraft 1 Orcs & Humans. There was the classic rpg divide of "good guy" races vs "bad guy" races. But the story has evolved so much over the years, or should have evolved, that that divide isn't really a factor anymore. Story wise, both factions have worked together so many times, that I was getting frustrated when we would be back at each others throats the next expansion.
Teaming up to stomp Arthas, could have built bridges there.
Working with a neutral party in Pandaria to overcome the Sha, could have built bridges there.
Teaming up to stop the Legion, hell class hall quests had players working alongside all the races, regardless of faction for that one. But nope, someone we arbitrarily call a Faction Leader, whom we barely interact with on a good day, says we are at war with each other.
@@Riplee86 I agree, they've been making it arbitrary for decades. constantly making them work together to save the world and shit.
I helped run a guild on Sargeras-A and it was like beating any head into the wall. There were many times I wished I was horde because I knew it wouldn’t be that bad, but I was 13 characters deep at 120 and didn’t want to do that all over again.
The whole realm system is still in place to facilitate realm transfers fees they already use instancing basically everywhere may as well not have base realms in the first place
Filling the roster is by far the hardest bit of mythic raiding. I led a guild through mythic BoD back in BfA and it was some of the most exciting but horrible times I've had in the game. We had to cancel so many raids along the way because our raiders had to drop out, had other responsibilities, could not keep up with difficulty, etc. Recruitment just could not keep up. At some point I'm sure we were cycling through 5-7 players per week for a solid month straight, which led to some of the good players to seek greener pastures as well... We did down Jaina in the end, but that guild subsequently imploded.
Never again xD I'm playing FF14 now and found myself a nice static grp to do the difficult content with in Endwalker, I'll NEVER lead a guild or raid team again though, you'd have to be some kind of masochist to do that to yourself.
Preach seems like a legitimately good dude. But I think this is a blind spot for him and Max since they only know the issue from the hardcore mythic raider angle. 90% + of players will never touch mythic content due to the barriers to entry. As such, when they see consistent balancing/dev time devoted to this, all they see is man hours that could be used to improving their 90% of the game. Obviously the game doesn't cater to mythic raiders, but the time used by devs towards it is a serious complaint imo.
but i dont think the solution is to get those devs on other areas of the game. They should just make the work environment better and less stressfull, stop freaking cutting employees and then get a better design from the start so they dont need to rework stuff over and over again. That also takes up too much time in general. They make the raid anyway, with or without mythic difficulty. I dont feel like adding mythic, would take up too much dev time and stuff.
So the point you are trying to make is that they use too much time on the mythic raid encounters, which most people would not see anyway. So its like heroic was before mythic, raids in general before heroic, most people didnt even do it. Class balance is done across all the content, so if you feel thats a wasted time we might aswell remove all pve and pvp content.
Theres no barrier to mythic other than 20 people, unless you feel like everyone should be able to be on the top list.
You can only make that complaint, when you have knowledge of how much time they spend on it, and you do not have that knowledge. What if they spend 40 man hours on mythic difficulty? Does your opinion change? Does the opinion of those who disagree with you change, if the number is 10,000 man hours? We don't really know, so it's a silly thing to say they should just remove part of the game to save on development time, when we don't know how much time we are talking about.
I mean wow's content problem isnt necessarily resources put in the wrong places but rather a lack of workers providing to more areas, they cut down on staff too hard.
@@keeperatoli That's not really true. The staff cuts everyone was moaning about were not developers. But your point is still valid, that cost cutting measures are at the root of most of this stuff being so crappy.
I would say 12 is the golden number in most case. And that is mainly for due to the 12 is dividable by so many numbers.
13:00 To steal FF's model, you could do 5 man dungeons, 10 man raids and every expansion do a single, 3 x 10 man "Alliance Raid" concept with one "wing" released each patch as something just for fun. The Alliance Raid stuff in FFXIV is super fun, and outside the one in ARR, it's completely optional which means it isn't that hard.
It'd definitely solve the biggest issue in WoW in that all the old content is completely wasted the second it's not current, imagine having 50+ raids we could go back to and play that were still a challenge?
Ofcourse if you are one of those incredibly lucky few people in a hardcore mythic raiding guild with people who are skilled and friendly who've been around for ages and have a guild that supports it's players instead of churning through members and collapsing. That is not the case for the majority, whom cannot even hope to begin to apply to these guilds, let alone find enjoyment in the process of gearing and learning to become good enough. It's a clique within a niche within a giant huge wall of progression and elitism to climb and most take one look and nope out.
I mean lowering it from 20 to 10 I'd like personally since 20 is a royal pain to get the numbers for and 10 man has been easily my favorite size back in the day, even though back then just by the design it was often times harder then the 25 man (OS3D being a funny example of how much damn easier it was to do even with my guild's 25 man being filled by many questionable people). Though to be fair, a lot of the issues with 10 man even in the past were due to needing certain roles to help make a fight possible or at least much easier.
smaller raid sizes are always good fun, im not sure if many have tried destiny 2, but the Leviathan raid and the wings were super fun to play. 6 man team, if you re an FPS god u can carry to some degree but generally if 1 person fks up its a wipe. sounds bad but its 6 ppl, but there are only 3 classes and 3 specs to each class so most go with the best option or META build if u will but even the worst options were slightly worse or maybe 1 spec had an aspect of utility or movement that brought them down a bit in the eyes of the community.
give guilds the option to remain faction locked or allow both factions. have it so anyone can pug from the other faction
They need to get rid of the 20 man requirement once cross realm opens. At that point it's not a race anymore. Doesn't need to be super tuned at that point. Also it's not just smaller raid. We have 24 on our roster. We want to raid with everyone and not be tied if a few are out.
I’m casual player back in WoW but watching this make me think I made right decision to play ff14 so much more friendly then WoW beside all the WOW issues have to deal with group of people that only leave on past how good WOW was and all the Dick measurements on top DPS .
Wish I could continue to joy WoW but to get unhappy playing no thanks , I love both of games and do not think one it’s better then the other , wish both games to get better but I lost hope for WOW .
Never played WoW. But I like the 8-man FFXIV composition. 2 tanks. 2 healers. 4 dps. As it was pointed, the more people. The more potential for conflict with the different player personalities, skill level, etc.
FWIW, 10 man raids in WoW were always fun. So if you took the 4 man from FF and made it 5 man (1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS) and just doubled it, you'd be set.
I keep trying to go back to raiding but I never have as much fun as 10 man raiding back in the day
Huge agree on the mythic raid lockout thing. From a casual perspective it's especially infuriating that it applies to older raids too. It leads to situations like joining a BoD pug to try for the Jaina mount and if your group falls apart you just can't try it again until next week, or you join a group for Mythic Antorus and the leader randomly decides to kick you before the last boss which ruins your lockout for the whole week. Situations like this just shouldn't be possible for content from multiple expansions ago.
Personally I want every raid to have the same lockout system (preferably the current heroic/normal system) just to avoid confusion as much as possible.
wait so you tell me that in WoW, you join a party finder group, clear 80% of the instance, then someones kicks you and your are not allowed to play until next week? that sounds like actual refund material
When a game focuses too much on satisfying elitist players and forget about those chill players who also want to clear end game content, the game will be bleeding players over time. The casual players make up quite a big chunk in games.
dunno bro, "casual" players do get attention as well, not always for good. Casual community demanded that meaningful choice stays and covenants arent easily swapable and energy stays in game. We all know how it ended up. Please tell me how elite (why u use elitist is beyond me, prejudice much?). I guess if you explained what you mean more than maybe but saying ignore bleeding edge players because they are minority is kinda sad
There needs to be a part of the game that every skill level can enjoy. I am a Heroic raider/KSM (aka, casual), it plays to my skill level and even though I am interested in trying Mythic Terry Crews for the first time this reset, I am ok with not being able to clear all of Mythic. Mythic requires a lot of work and energy that my 2-days a week guild doesn't want to put the time into it for very long.
It's incredibly ignorant of the casual player base to think that they deserve Mythic clears even though they may not be better at the game or put in 1/4 of the work as Mythic raiders do.
Aww Eredar! I was on that server for a loooong time. It was originally a pvp server that was (obviously) suuuuper swarmed with horde. It was a joke trying to do anything in the game as alliance back then before warmode came along.
There is a simple solution to WoW class utility balance: Just move the utility to the role, rather than the class. Give every melee the same interrupt; Give every tank the same taunt, etc. FFXIV does this, but they still under-utilize utility, in the boss fights, imho.
I really enjoyed the 24 person raids that I used to participate in in Everquest, but…..you really had to be a member of a guild and a very good guild at that. I can honestly say that the hours we put in and the co-ordination needed during a a fight was very fulfilling. Unfortunately the reality is that PUGing content like this virtually impossible.
See, this is where Blizzard's design philosophy fails. Forcing raiding to 20-man means that it's only open to larger guilds. What do smaller guilds get? Pushing Mythic+ keys? Hell, you can pug that. There really needs to be that intermediate, 10-man content there for people who aren't hardcore, dedicated 3-night a week gamerz, but who still want something fun to do with their guild that challenges them. This is where systems like Warfronts could have come in, if Blizzard had actually put the time and effort into making them good instead of dropping them like a hot potato. Blizzard is so bad about half-assing brand new content for the game, then completely giving up on it when people complain that it's half assed and incomplete.
IMO - when blizzard tried to make their content relatable to eSports, is when things like mythic raiding slowly got further out of reach from the majority of the playerbase,
My question is, how does this raid tier compare to previous raid tiers this far out from week 1? Quick Comparison to 8.1 raid, it released Jan 30, and 9.1 released July 13. Thats roughly 4 months, so if we look at Jaina 4 months out, say May 28. The 1000th guild cleared Mythic Jiana on May 24, so its about the same number of people clearing raid in the same time frame as 9.1 . I suspect this is a pretty normal rate.
So this entire premise about there being less people who cleared 9.1 than other raid tiers is just wrong on its face. Its always been about this number with the final raid tier of an expansion being around 2-2.5k because that tier is always much longer.
Mythic raiding has a lot of problems ranging from the logistics (Blizzard hates smaller servers and heavily penalizes them in terms of raiding) to its difficulty. I think they've just gone overboard on raid mechanics and made it just too complicated. WA's simplify a lot, but its just been overkill since WoD HFC.
The fact that WA's (or some other specific addons) are basically mandatory for some fights is already a hint of the problem. Yes, making complex mechanics and looking what kind of strategies the player wil end up using is a fun part of progress, but ultimately they ended up creating unforgiving mechanics working with X amounts of data you need a WA to keep track of.
I've had more fun progging ultimates with 8 than going back through 40/25 in classic/tbc or mythic 20 mans in legion. 20 is just a frustrating number, for a bench, consistency and classes.
Why would they ever do cross realm content when they're selling realm transfers?
I don't get why Blizz don't use that data for damage done/DPS to buff the main abilities of the lowest performance by like 1-2%. I get that the Delta isn't that far apart but for a mainly ranged class to be consistently below the average says they are slightly undertuned in comparison.
I don't play anymore though so whatever.
As a casual player the main reason why I don't get involved with heroic/mythic raiding is because of all the chores outside of the raid you have to do which will more than likely end up being obsolete next patch and next expansion. Max lvl conduits, max leggo, shards, max renown, farming m+ etc, this puts me off from wanting to engage in those difficulties. Heroic/Mythic would see an increase in players if they just removed all this bullshit. Don't adjust the difficulty, just have it so tier sets/enchants/consumables and gems would be the systems players engage in, not all this nonsense.
They could, you know, release a 10 man only mythic raid once in a while. Nothing said 20 and 10 man should be the same exact raid instance. And 10 could even gives you the buff you are missing inside the raid based on your comp via npcs.
Or they could bring back the idea of Scenarios from MoP and make 10-man scenarios that are focused around things other than just smashing keyboards against bosses. I mean, damn, probably my favorite encounter in all of WoW was having to run from Arthas in Halls of Reflection. That shit was *tight.*
Flexibility with characters is great if the classes are fuc*ing balanced well enough to compare to each other in raids.
I loved 10 man, my favorite raiding moments were 10 man. Karazhan, Wrath and Cata. Just a close knit group with better comradery.
I quit in Cata but I was dedicated 10 man raider in TBC and Wrath as a kid. It was sooo much fun and our 25 man group was always such a shit show
blizzard is making a lot of money from transfers. That's why they don't allow crossrealm and crossfaction. They would rather make money now, than make healthy decisions for the game.
I loved SoO, I played 25man Heroic (yes im calling it Heroic) on my Main, but because of 10man Heroic it made it possible for me and 5 other people to find the last 4 people every week and we had so much fun progressing through 10man Heroic on our alts.
And for some of the randoms we had with us, this was their mains and without 10man they would never have had the same chances at doing Heroic raids.
On my Main 25man it was just business, max performance, but the 10man raids was what i really enjoyed.
25man much like 20man now is double 10man or more, but at least 5 times the drama.
And since i was not a world first raider I didnt really care about the fact that 10man wasnt exactly as hard as 25man.
Crazy to me that horde is popular now. When I started I was in an alliance heavy server and the top raiding guilds were all blue
then you havent played for 8+ years
@@ruiferreira321 not since early bfa
@@joshrowell8375 bro wow is horde heavy since cata
They will never add cross realm off the start because they make too much money from realm xfers. They're going to want to keep that money even if it kills their game, so be it their Activision overlords.
The reason they don't do the mythic lockout where you can do the bosses it will make it so people will sell boosts and rerun the same raid 10x for gold or they will have 10 alts to do full runs for 1-4 characters
Push the rewards down a tier with heroic as the new hardest one and change LFR to LFG where you have to manually build the group and actually talk to people…if the new weakest one rewarded the normal ilvl gear people would do it more often and with people talking again you might restore the community a bit.
I really think they had the right idea on how to handle raids in WoTLK during Ulduar. One difficulty setting with an optional hardmode for each boss, this way the gear generally stays the same, just adds one more piece of slightly better loot for the hardcore people, keeps ilvl bloat down, there's not a bunch of re-colours of the same set, there's no sitting around waiting for the top 0.1% of the playerbase to kill the last boss so that blizz finally nerfs it and brings it in line for the rest of the playerbase and you are not re-clearing the raid on several difficulty settings each week.
There would still be a disparity between 10 and 25 man raids, but so what? It's not like we cant find solutions to that, off the top of my head you could lock people to either 10 or 25 man on a guild basis or something along those lines, so the 25 man people dont swoop in and smash the content meant for the 10 man guilds.
Having so many difficulty settings really takes the wind out of the sails of alot of people, most people i know wont even attempt mythic difficulty bosses because they've already decided that content is too hard and requires too much effort, so why even bother? I can see the same fights and get basically the same gear by just staying at my level.
And the mythic raiders i know, are either in the top 0.1% and can actually legit try the end fights at the correct time... or they are slightly worse, get up to the roadblock boss that's always there, and just have to stop raiding until the top guilds have beaten it and the nerfs come in.
All of this segments the playerbase FAR too much.
Bring it down to ONE difficulty setting that's clearable by the majority of guilds while providing fun progression at the end bosses, implement hardmode versions of all of these fights that are legit balls to the wall super difficult, but keep the loot the same overall and add in one or two "special" items per boss for clearing the hardmode, so you dont get several versions of the same gear, keep down item level bloat but still provide the top players with fun items that can act as status symbols, without increasing their power level to absurd levels above "normal" raiders.
And finally give people the flexibility to choose a smaller raid size, like 10 man, but section it off properly so that if you are a 25 man or 20 man or whatever size you settle on, you cant go in and just smash the 10 man content, taking away from the smaller 10 man guilds.
I think alot of the problems stem from wanting 10 and 25 man raids to be exactly equal, same loot same difficulty same achivement... why? Why not let them be seperate? 10 mans potentially giving worse loot than 25 mans is only an issue because during WoTLK the 25 man people would come in and stomp the 10 man content, without giving the 10 man only guilds a chance to properly progress "their" raid tier. Just lock people to the raidsize they are actually doing and let them be seperate things.
...And when was the last time we were given "new" things to do in WoW? Pet battles? Torghast maybe but that came with a slew of issues. One of the major failures of WoW in my opinion is the lack of fresh new fun things to do in the game.
Why not create Gallywix's Casino, full of minigames that people can play, look at something like Warcraft 3, the thing that kept that game going up until present day was the SLEW of additional community created content that kept pouring in over the years.
Not saying it would be simple, but create tools for people to create ingame minigames and let the community go wild with new cool minigames.
We've essentially been doing variations on the same thing for over 15 years now, daily quests, dungeons, raids, professions. And all the content that's been added (almost all anyways) have just been iterations on these things.
tldr, but the integration of increasing difficulty into the game world instead of drop down menus was done perfectly that tier
As a FF person, I need M+ explained to me like I'm five.
Mythic sounds like a difficulty (like Extreme/Savage/Ultimate and the like), Mythic Plus sounds like...well Very Hard mode to that. And then I hear shit like "Mythic+10" or "+15" and I'm like "What the fuck is it like Diablo 3 where it has like 20 more number-upping difficulties because it'd be legit impossible to design that many?"
That is basically what M+ is. It's Diablo greater rifts in WoW dungeon form. Each level increases the % of hp and damage done, and it's an exponential % growth, and certain level brackets add extra affixes or debuffs you have to watch out for. So like for instance. Say we took The Aery dungeon in FF, and then you got a key that let you increase the difficulty by 1 and raises the level of the dungeon to 80. That level would have say an 8% hp and damage modifier added to all mobs in the dungeon.
you keep pushing it up and up and you get to say +4 on the key, now you have to deal with an extra mechanic that occasionally strikes you or a random member with a lightning strike that does 20% of max hp. Then you push the key to +7 and now on top of lightning strikes, the mobs will enrage at 20% life (excluding bosses).Then at +10 you get random goop that spawns on the ground that hurts you and heals enemies that stand in it, so now you have to kite the mobs while also having a random lightning bolt hit and enrages at low %. All the while the % of hp and damage has gone up by like 175% at +10 and hitting +15 brings the % up to like 231% (All example % and not completely accurate to how much it goes up.)
Normally 13-16s are about where average players can get, 17-20 is slightly above average and 21+ is normally when the really good players are at key wise and in really high % of HP where bringing the class and player is a bit more important at times and where balance gets a bit wonky.
If they would remove boosters like Bloodlust and the Demon Hunters and Monks passive abilities, it would help to balance raid compositions.
Makes me laugh that Ion will preach player choice as some sort of excuse for covenants, but you already can't make a choice between horde and alliance if you want to raid. Player choice hasn't really existed in Wow for a long time...
Yeah and its cool that all the specs feel unique and its cool to see the dps chart so close but that doesnt matter in the least if the player attitude towards it is to only bring the top 3 specs on that list of very close dps. Any guild I would see right now is all for boomkins and rogues. So classes are already excluded. If the classes feel fun and unique even if what they output is very similar they can still feel like a choice but the utlity is too dramatically different.
@@keeperatoli the whole "get a moonkin" this is such a sad and true statement. For this tier I played my shaman to 5/10 mythic and a monk to 7/10 mythic. Both those guilds died so I tossed up a form post showing these to character and logs then my druid at 218 ilvl that I did all of castle with... I got more replies for the low ilvl moonkin then I knew what to do with >_>.
To be fair i agree with the op's point. The amount of effort and budget that goes into mytgic raiding is completely disproportional to the percentage of players that actualy play it. Compare it to bgs (and pvp in general), which a lot more players do, there was almost 0 effort put into it these last 2 expansions. Wow is totaly a raid centric game but most people don't play it for the raids (especialy mythic) so there is dissonence there.
But Ion likes raiding so....
I've seen moments in wow. Where those percentiles would be enough for people to exclude classes like hunters or warlocks because they are on the lower percentile
which is why i think its kind of disingenuous for preach to say people don't imitate world first guilds. sure, in dedication with splits, serv transfers, gold spending, etc they dont, but the player base does routinely draw inaccurate conclusions from top end preformance and strategies. and the disposeability of players only increases with cross faction/realm access.
its a complex problem from a cultural and game systems perspectives
I like the idea of 8 man or so raiding because how many people would like q "bros night" or people who just enjoy gaming a few nights a week and could raid as FRIENDS and enjoy it rather than the cliques that form in larger groups.
As a note the 100th Alliance guild was the 468th world guild so 368 Horde guilds completed 10/10 M before 100 Alliance did
double legos gonna throw all of the class balance right in the trashcan
27:00 I started in Wrath and played Alliance exclusively. Until I decided I wanted to start raiding in Legion and switched to Horde. I miss my Alliance characters, but there are so many more Horde raiding guilds that I can't go back until that change.
Well actually, I won't go back because I don't want to play WoW anymore. But also because of the raiding guild thing.
At 25:00 AH has been crossed faction for some years already.
The issue with the numbers is there is nothing to compare it to. So if 1,000 guilds have finished the raid, that's 20,000 people, but then I imagine on subsequent clears, other people on the bench of also cleared it, so let's ay it's closer to 25,000 people. How does that compare to people doing high level Arenas or people doing 20+ keys? How much does that compare to how many people are actually _playing_ the game now? If there are only 1M people logging in to play, 25,000 killing the hardest boss in the game isn't all that bad.
The problem with wow raiding and I feel in general is that any mistake that ends death is the end of an attempt for the most part. As soon as you die or a peer does it fucks over an encounter.. so mistakes become an annoyance as you have to reset and then waste pre-potions an whatever the case. Final Fantasy allows for mistakes to be corrected by way of raise, yet still has that difficulty factor. I havent raided in either game much mind you, but i know it sucks being the one who dies on a stupid mechanic and causes everyone to wipe it just to reset.. and thankfully in FF14 that hasnt come yet due to the second chances you get with Raise.
First off I love preaches videos but I gotta put in my two cents
People always bring up the fact that there are talents in wow and that gives you flexibility. It really doesn't. You pick the best one out of the three every time. There were talents i never got to change cause the other talents were so garbage. Wow could fix that if they just balanced the damn things but they dont. The illusion of choice isnt a choice when it comes to talents, there is no flexibility in them if you want to moderately play well at the game.
I personally like 12 man total. It seems a bit off, but there's something about a 2-3-7 sized group that feels pretty good to me overall. Maybe im bad though idk.
I said this in the Titanforge Podcast discord, and they briefly talked about it on the podcast. My suggestion was flex mythic. Because of the amount of classes required, it would incentivize 20, but not require it. The downside to taking less is less buffs. But, it would allow for MUCH easier recruitment, because you dont have to sit people, and it would allow people to be able to miss easier, you wouldnt have to recruit for a bench, etc. There are just so many benefits to flex raiding, and the only con is that it might be harder to balance.
There is one big con I see with this. You might also be excluded in some guilds because the boss is easier with randomly 16 people.
@@GrillGroll They need to incentivize getting 20. So they should try to balance it the best they can to make it easiest at 20
If they allow cross faction raiding, I'm switching to Alliance and playing with my Horde Guild. Cause I got some awesome character names over on the Alliance side server I used to play on before I started raiding.
this is underlying another major reason there's no chance of me going back to WoW unless they get rid of the faction divide.
About 1/3 of my (former) raid team would have switched to alliance characters if cross faction guilds/raiding were a thing.
Mythic raiding is the least of issues. Raiders live in their own bubble. The moment the game became unappealing to the casual audience is the moment the game died. Nobody wants to waste their lives, or even 5-6 hours a day to replay the same thing over and over again. It's just a bad game, it's not complicated. Build a good game not reliant on gating and replaying ad nauseam.
preach describes riding as a job, who would have fun in an environment like that?
Clearly, many people
I would make an MMO with 12 man raids. 6 man dungeons. 1 tank 1 healer 4 dps. DPS out number people by a LONG show. WoW dropping to 10 or 15 man lowers the ratio even further of tank/healer/dps.
12 is a ok size back when I used raid heroic when heroic was mythic way back in cata and start of mop in 10 man if 1 person died it was catastrophic there was barely any room for error.
Our guild mostly raided with 12-15 people and I really like it, seems like a nice balanced number of people to raid with
6 people for a dungeon? man, you really wanna be stuck making a group forever, huh? :P for me 4 is the magic number. shorter queue-times/time spent forming the group, more individual responsibility during combat, bigger chance of getting loot etc.
@@ecMonify dps are dime a dozen. It's tank and healers that make queues long.
i feel like we wow players always say, in wow raiding has more variation and shit like that, but if you think hard enough thats not true bc we always follow class guides, we always uses the combos the pro use on their raids, we always choose the clases that op at the moment. Etc. do we really have that much of a choice?
If they want to prevent loot funneling on mythic lockouts why not just remove it like a month or 2 after the patch has started or even hof filling. At the point the WF guilds cant just farm mythic for gear. makes all the sense in the world to remove mythic ID locks.
I hope Riot is watching these. Even at this early stage
Is Riot making an MMO?
My main server is dead. It's been merged with 4 other dead servers. I know I'm good enough to raid, I was CE (or equivalent) from Naxx25 thru Tomb of Sargeras in Legion. But I'm tired of transfering from one server to the next - I guess I should have given up and gone to a mega-server years ago?
Let me just raid from my dead server where I still occasionally see friends. Or make transfers free. Or consolidate servers even more.
I've been alliance only for basically ever. Never realized how much things are slanted towards horde until classic came out
Raided fine until BFA. Then it really started to become hard to make groups
BfA was so bad it killed a lot of Alliance guilds right away, and a lot of the remaining people just went Horde.
also id argue having the bars that close together on a raw dps graph isn't balanced. if a BM hunter with all its mobility is within 4% of a MM hunter with 0 mobility that's not actually balanced
Unpopular opinion here. I think that if Mythic raiding is all about the challenge, then it shouldn't be about/reward gear at all. it should be normalized or treated like M+, where gear caps at a certain point and then it's all about the players. I don't see M+ doing bad past 15s - just players will do only the things they're intersted in.
Most players are only interested on the gear reward/treadmill and numbers going up. So you see huge partecipation in m+ because it gives tremendously easier access to mythic ilvl gear compared to raids.
Normalize gear ilvls so HC/15s are on par, make gear sets specific for M+/raid so one isn't forced to do both to stay relevant/on par, and the rest is up to players.
Doesn't matter much that 99% of the playerbase does a part of the content when majority of them don't like doing that and are there only because they feel they "need" to do it.
Answering to one Preach's questions: holy trinity is fine, but i'd make groups 4 man and raids 12 people. Probably also try to make 3 tanks a thing in raids to have a different player distribution.
I love how interconnected you guys are. It makes this feel like a community understanding and movement and conversation. Much respect to both you boys and your killer teams
My ideal raid would be 10-man but with no holy trinity. Guild Wars pretty much did that. Technically in raids yes you have two healers, and a few encounters require a "tank", but it's fairly open on who you can bring. There's only 9 classes with 2 elite specs each. Getting left out is possible but nowhere near as much as WoW. We missed Cutting Edge strictly because we ALWAYS had attendance issues getting those last 5 people to fill 20-man. We couldn't pug because of the shitty lock-out system WoW has for mythic (even walking into the instance locks you to the group, not AFTER a kill).
Take a look at Lost Ark if you want a game without the holy trinity.
getting 20people to raid isnt the issue. getting those 20 people to log in each week consistently is. in more semi hc and casual guilds its difficult having a bench cuz they just leave to go get a dedicated raid spot. its like 1/20 cant log in,guesss what other 19 people, too bad no raid for you... this is why it needs to be flexible.
MAYBE more people would do mythic raiding if the game wasnt full of super grinds that mythic raiders need to do to better their gear? You always have to do some insane grinds to unlock legendary mats, +socket items, etc.
If they didn't have all those grinds while offering easy buyout with BoEs and the necessity of legendary crafting, how would Blizzard con people into buying tokens for gold?
What I see happening in my guild in FF is multiple cores, we generally start the tier at 2~3 cores and at the end of it, a lot of ppl give up and it ends up in one core made of the ppl that are still raiding. Of course my guild is not a hardcore-only guild, we are a small one with multiple types of players.
I feel like (and I might be wrong here) that bc of only 8 man in the raids, ppl that generally gravitate towards casual content end up trying (and in a lot of times killing at least 2~3 bosses) hardcore content because it is way easier to get 8 friends to play together than 20, and also the easy to access nature of it (just have gear, meld, food and pots) make it less of a commitment than WoW.
dunno about ff but in wow i would recomend staying away from 90% of guilds with more than 1 raiding team. Theres many reasons for it but it just will never work unless they are not interdependewd and people dont swap around teams and feed "team1" when needed etc. Its usually run by people who shouldnt even be leading 1 team and they try to lead 3 at the same time with 0 knowledge and streching resources and knowledge really thin.