Jeff, Thanks for putting out another thoughtful and informative video. I have learned a lot from your many years of analytic archery practice. You have accelerated my long archery journey. Keep the videos coming!
This is great! Im a new trad shooter.. Not only did you explain it so I understood it, but you're a lefty like me and so it was VERY easy for me to follow and understand. Thank you SO much!
Great video. I am glad that you guys did this video for people to understand there is more that one way to shoot. I shoot in a open stance and is told I am wrong for doing that. Then have to explain my shot cycle. Thanks again for doing the video.
Excellent video! I have actually just started rotational draw about 2 weeks ago and have already noticed a huge increase in my accuracy! If I do the draw correctly, I always get proper back tension and a good shot. Wish I discovered this sooner. I will give credit to Jeff Krug for prompting my interest in this technique. I have wondered for a while what the heck Jeff is doing during his draw cycle, because he is such a good shot. Now I know! Thanks to both you and Jeff for putting out great videos. 👍👍
Wow, I have to thank you for this! I've been struggling with shoulder issues for a number of years, so when you mentioned that this can help, I had to try it. For anyone who is wondering, the rotational draw is a shoulder saver for certain! I haven't attempted to increase draw weight, but this draw lets me shoot longer without pain. Exhaustion was never my issue, but I imagine this would help that as well.
Rotational draw.....knew I was forgetting something!! So many things to work on, so little time. Shooting field on Friday so I will keep this in mind. Thanks Greg. Oh, almost forgot "ALL HAIL JEFF!!!".
A brilliant video i am new to archery your instruction has been a great help .I am only a beginner from Buckinghamshire England in my opinion from the your archery videos are the best on You Tube.Could you do more videos on gap shooting 😊 All the best. Ray
TheNockingPoint Don’t change your draw cycle! Your rotational draw is clear to see and is why I noticed it. Greg’s on the other hand is so subtle, I would have missed it.
Nice video, I like it when you do this stuff. As you have said yourself, ultimately there is no right or wrong way...it's down to what suits you. One thing neither of you mentioned though is when using such methods is that it is vital yo have a very loose grip of the bow otherwise you could end up torquing the bow (not a good thing with any bow but more important with a recurve or compound bow). keep them coming like this.
Eye on the prize. Smooth and painless. You make me interested cuz U take the overprocessing/ovrrthinking and park it off site. And, well we lefties need to support each other(haha) Nice video👍
Love this concept just in time as I am adjusting my shooting. You appear to be in martial arts. I am 8th Dan in shotokan and hold black belts in four others. Thanks Greg. Your videos are great stuff.
You are shooting with the wrong hand. :) Otherwise, thank you Sir. This whole angular and rotational draw thing is the current meme in the UA-cam archery channels. I have one in the can myself. Just never enough time in the day... Apparently, the old linear (straight) draw technique is so 2017.
I'm not really sure about this... Personally, I have a hard time drawing using my back when my elbow is down. It looks to me like the "chicken wing" I was told not to do when I first started shooting. Watching your back in your 3 camera clip, it looks like you're only engaging your back muscles at the last 20% of the shot. Also, locking your drawing arm shoulder while pulling and lifting your elbow throughout the shot seems to me like it would put a lot more strain on the shoulder than just keeping the elbow up from beginning to end. Your friend, who demonstrated his rotational draw seemed to be doing it the way I usually draw - shoulders level, elbow level/high, back muscles engaged.
That is right, the back muscles should not be engaged the whole time. Much more efficient that way. The front shoulder should be locked into the socket and not pushed outward. As for the elbow, well I never said to do that, I said that is how I draw and not to pay attention to it.
Archery 101 I wasn't referring to your bow arm shoulder but rather your drawing arm shoulder. Ofc do what works for you. I'm just worried that people see the circular motion of your elbow during the draw could lead people to develop an unfortunate habit. From what I've been taught the shoulder is more prone to injury rotating back and up during the draw. Not trying to criticize, just curious.
The motion you see, Is me first ensuring that my shoulders are down, Too many archers shoot with their shoulder up. Then, I lift it up when it is time to use my back. The early drawing is done with my rotation. I use to fight and train fighters and seen too many people get hurt punching with their elbows up, it is just something I do, I do not advocate it for others.
Added this comment below to thenockingpoint video at ua-cam.com/video/gIaGrK4tiVM/v-deo.html Seems applicable to both of you guys: "Ok, so I got the rotational draw to work. It took a while to get used to it. The most important thing both you and Greg didn't show in your videos was the foot placement. Took me a bit of time to figure out that you were essentially describing was the old KSL archery cycle (albeit with fewer steps). I wonder whether this is a reason why NUSensei made his rather flippant, "I used to do that..." comment. Personally, I find the whole rotation of the hips a potential weakness. So now I have essentially added "hip slippage" or over hip twisting (torsion) to my weakness list. I feel that for the effort I'm not really adding any more stability to my shot cycle, but the technique does seem to force me back to a more lateral rhomboid engagement (ref. less potential shoulder injury potential). And now with this exercise, my thoughts are more along the lines of being more consistent with my angular draw technique, doing my best to lower the shoulders as much as possible as I subtly "raise and drop" the bow into aiming position after full rhomboid engagement. I believe that one of the big points of the KSL archery cycle technique was to not concentrate on aiming "until after" fully engaging the back muscles after the recommendated 3ish second settle and aiming part of the cycle before release."
Foot placement for me, is not that important. I can do it from either an open or closed stance. Listen to the Push Podcast on stances with a Level 4 coach and he better explains in detail how to do it and the benefit of it. I know the shoulder raising thing, That is why you see me force my shoulders down and one reason why I keep my draw elbow down at a slight angle at the start. Just lifting the elbow up can make you lift the shoulder. You are correct. They do teach not to aim until you are set. Good points and I'm glad to see that you at least tried it before making a decision on it.
Yes and No. I could tell when newer people were going to strike long before they knew they were. The majority of the time the same is for most fighters. Pretty hard to hide a draw in combat and no need when shooting combat distance of 100 plus yards.
Intesting intro. Buuuut . This is English language being used. So of course it's going to be some kind of argument over what a word means . Or how it's used as a descriptor to change what another word means . It's fun to think ,the English language is so messed up borrowed mashed together and or recycled. No actual reason other than Its what we do . We speak English . I blame the mad dogs and mid day sun thing . Or marketing people . Never was sure what came first Cheers .
What i would say though is how unusual your draw arm looks through the draw cycle. Very low. Its evident to me Brady keeps his up through the draw giving surely better leverage. ?? This rotational draw that i keep seeing videos on seems to be more of a new fashion trend rather than a truly beneficial technique.
The rotational draw is not new. Olympic archers have been using it for years. My elbow position is mine and i stated that in the video. I did not say to shoot like that. You seem to be focusing on that aspect alone to discredit the rotational draw, which is unfortunate.
You should also realise that twisting (rotating) under strain is far worse for your back than anything you could be doing to your shoulder from poor stance and draw.
Funny, but that is not what the studies for archery bio-mechanics have shown. The system they used was called BEST (Bio mechanically Efficient Shooting Technique), they dropped that name because people thought they were saying it was the best.
Firstly cite the studies, secondly who are "they"? There is a reason you don't see professional archers use a method like this and it's not just limiting draw weight.
World Archery. Here look at what Brady Ellsion says why he does it and also check out Arne Moe a level four NTS Coach who advocates it also. ua-cam.com/video/YXiYSmPZKbY/v-deo.html
WAF does not advocate twisting your back as part of the draw technique ;). Brady is not twisting his back, he's rotating through the draw. If you twist your back you're doing it wrong.
Jeff,
Thanks for putting out another thoughtful and informative video. I have learned a lot from your many years of analytic archery practice. You have accelerated my long archery journey. Keep the videos coming!
Ha Ha Ha ha Ha Ha LOL!
This is great! Im a new trad shooter.. Not only did you explain it so I understood it, but you're a lefty like me and so it was VERY easy for me to follow and understand. Thank you SO much!
Great video. I am glad that you guys did this video for people to understand there is more that one way to shoot. I shoot in a open stance and is told I am wrong for doing that. Then have to explain my shot cycle. Thanks again for doing the video.
Excellent video! I have actually just started rotational draw about 2 weeks ago and have already noticed a huge increase in my accuracy! If I do the draw correctly, I always get proper back tension and a good shot. Wish I discovered this sooner. I will give credit to Jeff Krug for prompting my interest in this technique. I have wondered for a while what the heck Jeff is doing during his draw cycle, because he is such a good shot. Now I know! Thanks to both you and Jeff for putting out great videos. 👍👍
Wow, I have to thank you for this! I've been struggling with shoulder issues for a number of years, so when you mentioned that this can help, I had to try it. For anyone who is wondering, the rotational draw is a shoulder saver for certain! I haven't attempted to increase draw weight, but this draw lets me shoot longer without pain. Exhaustion was never my issue, but I imagine this would help that as well.
Hey Mr.101..I've gone from martial arts to archery in my life too!..Interesting that!..Thanks for the great vids..Greetings from the U.k.
Are you amazed at how many similarities there are? Archery instructors, could learn a few things from martial arts instructors that is for sure.
Rotational draw.....knew I was forgetting something!! So many things to work on, so little time. Shooting field on Friday so I will keep this in mind. Thanks Greg. Oh, almost forgot "ALL HAIL JEFF!!!".
Always a great video! Thanks for sharing, now to practice without overthinking it.
A brilliant video i am new to archery your instruction has been a great help .I am only a beginner from Buckinghamshire England in my opinion from the your archery videos are the best on You Tube.Could you do more videos on gap shooting 😊 All the best. Ray
So true about learning something with every video we make. After seeing how I draw from above, I may change my draw.
TheNockingPoint Don’t change your draw cycle! Your rotational draw is clear to see and is why I noticed it. Greg’s on the other hand is so subtle, I would have missed it.
I have been practising looking between the riser and the string to get a little more rotation into the mix. And focusing on my core a little more.
Subtle, me? Wooo hooo! :)
Definitely will give it a try tomorrow. Thanks Gregg on another good video
Nice video, I like it when you do this stuff. As you have said yourself, ultimately there is no right or wrong way...it's down to what suits you. One thing neither of you mentioned though is when using such methods is that it is vital yo have a very loose grip of the bow otherwise you could end up torquing the bow (not a good thing with any bow but more important with a recurve or compound bow). keep them coming like this.
Eye on the prize. Smooth and painless. You make me interested cuz U take the overprocessing/ovrrthinking and park it off site. And, well we lefties need to support each other(haha)
Nice video👍
Certainly food for thought , thanks for sharing 👍👍👍
What Do U Put On The 🎯 With Your Eye The Tip Of The Arrow Or A Spot On The Bow ? Thank.
I place the arrows end.
Love this concept just in time as I am adjusting my shooting. You appear to be in martial arts. I am 8th Dan in shotokan and hold black belts in four others. Thanks Greg. Your videos are great stuff.
Klasse! Danke und Grüße aus Deutschland
Great video guys, I just wish the top view segment from Jeff was longer ... 3-4 shots ...
Litterally turned my groups from pie plate to baseball size in like a week
Greg, very nicely done. I'm going to have to give this a try. It's kind of like doing the Hoky Poky :-) sorry about that. Thank you. Alan
Where does most injury happen?
Back of the shoulder?
Upper front?
From what I have been told (and I cannot collaborate this), the most common is from the joint socket.
you are great!!
"rotate using my core". ty sir
Hey Greg what tab is that do u like shooting the tab better than the American leathers glove ???
Home made, the plate is from an AAE Cavalier split finger and the leather is from a Fred Eichler 3 under tab.
Thank U.Good Job.Tn.Prepper.
nice thanks for the info !!!!!!!!!
God bless you for doing this videos. I am an ultimate amateur, and your videos have been very helpful. Please, keep doing them!
Good video. @10:40 : rotate -> transfer -> almost hit an arrow ...
Looks like a J draw from Arnie Moe. I shoot the same way except I am not sure what my stance is.
Wow archery and wing Chun in one video lol
Looks more like Kempo ;D
Jazzman3121 definitely see the brush grab strike. You may be right!
;) You'll see the same in Wing Chun also but we try to shorten the technique down so it's quicker, lol.
👍🏻👊🏻
You are shooting with the wrong hand. :)
Otherwise, thank you Sir.
This whole angular and rotational draw thing is the current meme in the UA-cam archery channels. I have one in the can myself. Just never enough time in the day... Apparently, the old linear (straight) draw technique is so 2017.
I'm not really sure about this... Personally, I have a hard time drawing using my back when my elbow is down. It looks to me like the "chicken wing" I was told not to do when I first started shooting. Watching your back in your 3 camera clip, it looks like you're only engaging your back muscles at the last 20% of the shot. Also, locking your drawing arm shoulder while pulling and lifting your elbow throughout the shot seems to me like it would put a lot more strain on the shoulder than just keeping the elbow up from beginning to end. Your friend, who demonstrated his rotational draw seemed to be doing it the way I usually draw - shoulders level, elbow level/high, back muscles engaged.
That is right, the back muscles should not be engaged the whole time. Much more efficient that way. The front shoulder should be locked into the socket and not pushed outward. As for the elbow, well I never said to do that, I said that is how I draw and not to pay attention to it.
Archery 101 I wasn't referring to your bow arm shoulder but rather your drawing arm shoulder. Ofc do what works for you. I'm just worried that people see the circular motion of your elbow during the draw could lead people to develop an unfortunate habit. From what I've been taught the shoulder is more prone to injury rotating back and up during the draw. Not trying to criticize, just curious.
The motion you see, Is me first ensuring that my shoulders are down, Too many archers shoot with their shoulder up. Then, I lift it up when it is time to use my back. The early drawing is done with my rotation. I use to fight and train fighters and seen too many people get hurt punching with their elbows up, it is just something I do, I do not advocate it for others.
I suppose that's as good a reason as any. Thank you for sharing that.
Added this comment below to thenockingpoint video at ua-cam.com/video/gIaGrK4tiVM/v-deo.html
Seems applicable to both of you guys:
"Ok, so I got the rotational draw to work. It took a while to get used to it. The most important thing both you and Greg didn't show in your videos was the foot placement. Took me a bit of time to figure out that you were essentially describing was the old KSL archery cycle (albeit with fewer steps).
I wonder whether this is a reason why NUSensei made his rather flippant, "I used to do that..." comment.
Personally, I find the whole rotation of the hips a potential weakness. So now I have essentially added "hip slippage" or over hip twisting (torsion) to my weakness list. I feel that for the effort I'm not really adding any more stability to my shot cycle, but the technique does seem to force me back to a more lateral rhomboid engagement (ref. less potential shoulder injury potential).
And now with this exercise, my thoughts are more along the lines of being more consistent with my angular draw technique, doing my best to lower the shoulders as much as possible as I subtly "raise and drop" the bow into aiming position after full rhomboid engagement.
I believe that one of the big points of the KSL archery cycle technique was to not concentrate on aiming "until after" fully engaging the back muscles after the recommendated 3ish second settle and aiming part of the cycle before release."
Foot placement for me, is not that important. I can do it from either an open or closed stance.
Listen to the Push Podcast on stances with a Level 4 coach and he better explains in detail how to do it and the benefit of it.
I know the shoulder raising thing, That is why you see me force my shoulders down and one reason why I keep my draw elbow down at a slight angle at the start. Just lifting the elbow up can make you lift the shoulder.
You are correct. They do teach not to aim until you are set.
Good points and I'm glad to see that you at least tried it before making a decision on it.
#HappyisArcheris
When you kickboxing, you will not show your opponent every step of your attack. Same thing with archery.
Yes and No. I could tell when newer people were going to strike long before they knew they were. The majority of the time the same is for most fighters.
Pretty hard to hide a draw in combat and no need when shooting combat distance of 100 plus yards.
You are definitely right, Sir :)
Intesting intro.
Buuuut .
This is English language being used.
So of course it's going to be some kind of argument over what a word means .
Or how it's used as a descriptor to change what another word means .
It's fun to think ,the English language is so messed up borrowed mashed together and or recycled.
No actual reason other than
Its what we do . We speak English .
I blame the mad dogs and mid day sun thing . Or marketing people .
Never was sure what came first
Cheers .
Advise on this From mr Brady elison himself ua-cam.com/video/-th0q3LOR-o/v-deo.html
Here is his latest where he says he does it too.
ua-cam.com/video/YXiYSmPZKbY/v-deo.html
Archery 101. Whatever puts the arrow in the middle... Over and over again. :-)
What i would say though is how unusual your draw arm looks through the draw cycle. Very low.
Its evident to me Brady keeps his up through the draw giving surely better leverage. ??
This rotational draw that i keep seeing videos on seems to be more of a new fashion trend rather than a truly beneficial technique.
The rotational draw is not new. Olympic archers have been using it for years. My elbow position is mine and i stated that in the video. I did not say to shoot like that. You seem to be focusing on that aspect alone to discredit the rotational draw, which is unfortunate.
wing chun ???!!!
Greg, Sorry I had to do it. ;-) >>>-----------> ua-cam.com/video/BoXu6QmxpJE/v-deo.html
Yeah wing chun.....you know, noodles, chillies, lemon grass, spring onions and chicken! ;0)
@@TheNockingPoint Thanks ..I fell for that 1..Loved that band..(fortunately.)..Lolz
This video could be 3-4mins long. Far too much waffle.
You should also realise that twisting (rotating) under strain is far worse for your back than anything you could be doing to your shoulder from poor stance and draw.
Funny, but that is not what the studies for archery bio-mechanics have shown. The system they used was called BEST (Bio mechanically Efficient Shooting Technique), they dropped that name because people thought they were saying it was the best.
Firstly cite the studies, secondly who are "they"? There is a reason you don't see professional archers use a method like this and it's not just limiting draw weight.
World Archery. Here look at what Brady Ellsion says why he does it and also check out Arne Moe a level four NTS Coach who advocates it also.
ua-cam.com/video/YXiYSmPZKbY/v-deo.html
WAF does not advocate twisting your back as part of the draw technique ;). Brady is not twisting his back, he's rotating through the draw. If you twist your back you're doing it wrong.