Warped Book Covers? Why it Happens and What to Do About it

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  • Опубліковано 13 жов 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 88

  • @daneryta
    @daneryta 2 роки тому +11

    Thank you for always putting so much effort to explain every single detail. You're always doing a great job and your videos are awesome!! Thank you !!!!!

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      Thank you for always watching and for your consistent kind responses. You make it all worthwhile!

  • @andrewmackay901
    @andrewmackay901 6 місяців тому +3

    I've found an improved method for card covers (haven't tried for leather bindings). To relieve the internal stress which causes warping, first dampen the inside of the covers and endpaper as shown in video. However, you need to permanently change the fibre configurations after they have been wet. A slight pressure change is not sufficient else when the fibres are dry the distortion returns. So, using a sheet of waxed paper either side of the cover to prevent moisture from getting into the book, press the cover by itself in a strong press (not the cover and book, just the cover) for about 12 hours. This deforms the fibres but they still contain a lot of water. Next, place a smooth sheet of paper either side of the cover and a piece of blotting paper the other side of the smooth paper on the endpaper side. Now put back in the press (again, the cover not the book) for about 24 hours. Residual water from the fibres can then disperse into the blotting paper under pressure. After this procedure, the covers should retain their flatness for a lot longer and works better than the methods described. Hope this helps.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  6 місяців тому

      Thank you so much for sharing! This is excellent stuff.

  • @ShayJaggerMitchell
    @ShayJaggerMitchell Рік тому +9

    I use a dehumidifier not a humidifier and set it at 50% to stop pages going wavy
    It gets way to humid here in Australia.
    It’s really worked for that.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      Good point! Same end, different means! I should have mentioned that in the video myself!

  • @phyllisjeanfulton
    @phyllisjeanfulton Рік тому +2

    Oh man!!! You’ve saved my sanity. 😅😢😂😮😊❤
    I’m learning book binding and belong to an Artist Bookmaking Group. The wonky leather book covers on my first all leather book covers are warped. So I finally gave up and have put under pressure between boards with moisture protection to pages snd lightly spritzed the inside of cover. Tomorrow morning I’ll see. But have sinking feeling it’s a WONKY book forever. lol.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      Good luck! The first leatherbound books I made were wonky in more ways than one!!

  • @YahwehsSetApartArt
    @YahwehsSetApartArt Рік тому +1

    As I was writing this comment, someone’s comment is soooooo similar to what I was about to say (so awkward lol)-nevertheless 😅😆🤣,Thank you so much for taking the time out to make such videos such as this one. I look forward to supporting your channel!

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      Thank you so much! I look forward to your support. See you around the channel!

  • @emmakay3752
    @emmakay3752 2 роки тому +1

    Loving these binding videos you are doing! Great work, keep it up I can't wait to see more.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      Glad you like them! More are in the works slowly but surely.

  • @TheIronMason
    @TheIronMason Рік тому +2

    I look forward to a video that goes through the process of printing page signatures from start to finish as well as page setup, glue and machine selection, etc. Not sure if you have that on the itinerary but it would be helpful

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      I have one coming up soon which will go over my full supply list for re-binding books, and it may address some of your questions. Other topics like binding your own printed pages are on the docket, but much further down. Unfortunately life keeps me from being able to upload more than once a month, but if you stick around the channel then I think all will be revealed in time. In the meantime if you have specific questions you can always reach me here in the comments section.

  • @biblereviews934
    @biblereviews934 Рік тому +1

    Great video! Please make a video about Bible Rebinding. Thanks. God bless

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      Thanks for the tip! I have re-bound scriptures before and use the same methods as I demonstrate in the other tutorials on my channel. Is there something specific about your home Bible that I could address?

  • @Gutslinger
    @Gutslinger Рік тому +1

    4:28 I'm curious if the book might had needed to stay in the press longer.
    My mind thinks that maybe it still had the moisture in it when it was taken out of the book press. Then for the following week on the shelf, the moisture dissipated, causing the book to revert to it's warped shape since there was no pressure keeping it flat as it dried.
    Part of the reason I think of that is because of a method my friend showed me for straightening bowed wooden poles. We got them wet, and layed them on the cement of his car-port. Then rotated the rod, and rolled the tired of his boat trailer to sit on top and push the bow down. Then we let it sit until it dried. After it dried, it would hold it's new straightened shape.. I believe I seen videos of similar processes with other woodworks.. Though I do understand books aren't quite the same as lumber.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      That's an interesting thought. A year before I made this video I was battling against the same winter problem and I tried putting some books in the press for as long as 1 or 2 weeks, but I didn't add water. I was unsatisfied with the results. It would be interesting to see if adding the water first would make the longer press times more effective though.

  • @joelee4495
    @joelee4495 2 роки тому

    An option to guard against warping of your books that you cover and bind. Try before you make the cover coating the chip board with glue on both sides and allow the chip board to dry before moving along with your book binding and putting the leather cover on the book. By coating the chip board on both sides it balances out the warping from the gluing of the leather cover and assembling the book.
    Your 2 two leather book binding/covering videos are excellent.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      Thanks for the tip! I like that idea! I think the pre-gluing would also create a moisture seal that might help as well. I'll have to try that! Thanks for the kind words about the videos, by the way.

    • @phyllisjeanfulton
      @phyllisjeanfulton Рік тому

      Thank you. I will certainly use your tip. I’m goin cry if my next leather book is as warped as my first one. I’m a newbie at this craft.

  • @louisecallahan130
    @louisecallahan130 Рік тому +2

    Did you know that chipboard has a grain direction? Combined with end pages and cover materials consider this when balancing these inherent forces. I’ve enjoyed this video 👍🏻

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +2

      Indeed, although the chipboard I use is so stiff that I haven't been able to use my typical "see which way it bends easiest" method to find the grain direction like I would with paper. Are you able to tell by sight? If so I'd love to learn how! Thanks so much for the feedback!

    • @louisecallahan130
      @louisecallahan130 Рік тому +3

      @@ingeniusdesigns your bookbinding supplier will properly label book board or even chipboard denoting the grain direction. I sold paper for 12 years with a Canadian paper merchant and got to visit a few paper mills, fascinating to see up close. I do enjoy your videos and I hope and wish for you to share more of your intriguing projects and observations ❣️

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +2

      Thanks so much! Guess I'll have to just start using a proper bookbinding supplier! Thanks for your support of the channel, and I hope to hear more of your helpful comments in the future.

  • @dracohoribilis
    @dracohoribilis 2 роки тому +2

    Awesome video as always! Im decided I want a collection like yours so I will get myself some basic items and start creating. Its just magnificent. Im curious about your HTV. Do you order it shaped or do you have a special printer to print the designs you create?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +3

      So excited that you want to start your own collection. I use a Cricut to cut the designs into my vinyl. Any vinyl cutter would work though. I have a video in the pipeline that describes my creative process in a little more detail. I hope that will help!

    • @dracohoribilis
      @dracohoribilis 2 роки тому

      @@ingeniusdesigns Thank you, googled it and found one, well worth investing in. I use Photoshop, is it practical together with Cricut? I imagine I either use a PNG file created in photoshop or an actual Psd file?
      I woul dlove to see the process, where do I find the "pipeline?"
      Im subscribing to a million pages apprently, my kids click everything they find, but the only thing I subscribe to and EVER look if you added a new video is yours, keep em coming, love everything about it.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      If you have access to Adobe products like Photoshop, then are you familiar with Illustrator? That's what I use to make my designs. PNG images can be imported by Cricut but you lose a lot of detail. It's ideal to make your designs in a vector image format to begin with, which you can do with Adobe Illustrator and other programs.
      As for the "pipeline" I just meant "videos I'm currently working on/have planned." The one on my design process is in the works right now. I'm so glad to know you care enough to keep checking back!

  • @haloeminem
    @haloeminem 2 роки тому

    Love the content and keep up the great work! I just wish you would post a shopping list for stuff in your other videos lol

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      Thanks! I do have a "shopping list" in the description of my book binding tutorial part 2, although I could certainly stand to add one to part 1. Any particular items you need pointers on?

  • @jamiemueller1881
    @jamiemueller1881 Рік тому +2

    Where did you get that book press? Thanks for a great tutorial.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      That's just a couple of particle boards and two C-clamps that I bought at a discount hardware store. Easiest build ever! Thanks for the question.

  • @Primalruin
    @Primalruin 2 місяці тому

    I know this is an older series, but I’ve watched quite a bit of your book binding videos and was wondering if just using a thin hardwood like walnut to wrap the leather around. I imagine that was how books were made years ago, but have wondered if this would help protect the warping in that it takes more force to bend wood over chipboard?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 місяці тому

      I've had the same thought, but haven't actually tried it. On the one hand, I would expect some woods to be stronger and more rigid than chipboard. On the other hand, warping of wood, especially thin wood, is a common problem even outside the bookbinding context.

    • @Primalruin
      @Primalruin 2 місяці тому

      @@ingeniusdesigns ahhh so then it may be whether one could apply a sealant to the wood to resist moisture absorption and by proxy warping but also not hindering the adhesive bonding the leather and sealed wood together. I would love to bind some of my books, but haven’t really found a good chipboard at a price that’s not too far away from thin hardwood panels so I might give this a shot. I really appreciate your response and information across your channel ❤️

  • @melissacarlson47
    @melissacarlson47 Рік тому +1

    I wonder if you would have less seasonal warping in books that are bound during the dryer parts of the year. If you bound books in the winter, when dry air was the norm, maybe the base tension on the books would be lower, relaxing a little bit in the summer. That could cause other issues, of course, but it would be interesting to experiment with that idea.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      I have wondered about that myself. Since only some of the professionally-bound books in my collection warp significantly, I assume that is because they were bound under very different climate conditions than where I live. It would be interesting to see if binding more in winter alleviated the problem.

    • @TheSpecialJ11
      @TheSpecialJ11 Рік тому

      Perhaps this is the argument to use a dehumidifier when doing the binding and a humidifier to reverse any warping.

  • @CastleStar5596
    @CastleStar5596 2 роки тому

    Interesting. One method I've done for this type of thing is line the board with sheets of paper and a comic book backing book. I put one a sheet of paper on the front and back of each the boards and then 1 backing board on 1 side to help stabilize it, usually on the opposite side that's warping. That way if it wants to start pulling and warping it's very minimal.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +2

      Great tip! I especially love the idea of putting a sheet of paper on the front and back, since that would naturally help to balance the forces out.

  • @Gutslinger
    @Gutslinger Рік тому

    As someone who's just starting into reading, I'm aggregated. Just a few hours ago I thought it would be a good idea to sit outside in the spring sun, so I could get some color and Vitamin D, and I decided to bring my new LotR hardcover book outside with me to continue reading to pass the time.
    After an hour or so, I noticed that a few pages on both sides of where I was reading appeared slightly wavy. I figured it might've been from me gripping it too hard while holding it, being that it's heavy.
    A little while later, I noticed that all of the pages seemed to have a slight bow to them. I thought it was odd, and continued reading. A little while after that, I noticed the bow being more prominent, and then it clicked in my head that the sun was making it bow, probably by drawing out the moisture.
    Now I'm not sure what I can do to fix it, if there is anything. The cover still looks straight, I think, but all of the pages have a bow. So I can't get the cover to lay flush against the pages without forcing the cover to bow. I flipped through some of the pages and noticed that I can change the direction the pages bow.
    Hopefully it might straighten out, if the pages manage to draw in moisture, but I don't know. I don't know how long that might take. My OCD is probably either going to cause me to stop reading it altogether, or buy another copy. Though I'd hate to buy another copy, seeing that I just bought that one and I'm not made of money.
    **sigh** 😑
    Edit: 🤔 If the cover is straight, maybe I could open the book covers, and lay all of the pages on the edge of a table, with the bottom cover hanging off of the table. Then place some heavy books on the pages only, to hold them flat against the table, and leave it for however long, hoping moisture returns and it becomes flat again... I don't know.
    This comment is basically a book at this point.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      I'm sorry that happened to your book! I would bring it back inside and just wait for a while to see if the pages go back to normal. Pages can swell and shrink on their own. If nothing happens, try pressing the book flat. You don't have to try and press the pages separate from the rest of the book. You can just close the book and press the whole thing.

  • @bighoss6315
    @bighoss6315 2 роки тому

    Nice! I was wondering if/when you’ll make a video about designing your book cover art?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +2

      Thanks! I wanted to get this video out now because I could only do it during the colder months, but the cover art video will be coming ASAP. I have actually been preparing for that video slowly for the last couple of months, but it will be one of my biggest yet and I have needed to gather new tools and finish some books to prepare for it. I want to give you the very best product that I can when I finally make that one!

    • @bighoss6315
      @bighoss6315 2 роки тому +1

      @@ingeniusdesigns Cool. Thanks.

  • @thinkingahead6750
    @thinkingahead6750 Рік тому

    It used to be a weekly regular task to damp wipe the books in the summer heat. A question : how do you have shelves with space for bookends?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      I guess the way I have space for bookends is by not having enough books! XD As my collection grows I definitely need less and less bookends.

  • @boet9399
    @boet9399 2 роки тому

    Great informative video keep up with the content
    What do you think about the use of a plastic or similar book cover to completely negate humidity?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      I know a lot of hardback books have a plastic coating of some sort, and it does seem like they are less susceptible to warping than some other books. The risk of warpage varies depending on what you cover your boards with. Paper and leather change a lot with heat and humidity; cloth less so. I expect that adding a plastic coating would really help, although you would then want endpapers which were similarly impermeable to water so you wouldn't have the cover warping the other direction.

    • @boet9399
      @boet9399 2 роки тому +1

      @@ingeniusdesigns Really interesting thanks heaps for the input

  • @zachhalliwell553
    @zachhalliwell553 Рік тому

    This might be completely anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt, but it may be something to try. I seal my books with a homemade balm consisting of sweet almond oil, coconut butter, castor oil, and beeswax. I usually notice the bowing happening sometimes before I seal the leather and then first I do what you did, where I wet the cover and the interior cover and then press it and let it dry overnight. The next morning I immediately apply the balm after taking it out of the press, let it sit for an hour or so, and then buff it off with sheeps wool. I usually never see the bowing happen after that again. (Though now that I say that, it'll probably happen, lol.) But my theory is that the balm moisturizes the leather and keeps it moist enough to prevent the bowing from happening. Maybe something to try! I can share the exact recipe if you'd like to experiment.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      Interesting. I also find that when I seal my leather with a finishing coat it seems to warp less, although I chose not to include that in the video because my data is pretty anecdotal at this point. I'd be interested to try your recipe too!

    • @zachhalliwell553
      @zachhalliwell553 Рік тому +2

      @@ingeniusdesigns totally! Here’s the recipe: 2.5 oz of beeswax, 2.5 oz of coconut butter, 8oz of sweet almond oil, and 8oz of castor oil. Gently heat up the oil and melt the beeswax into it and then let it cool. It makes a lot so it’ll last for years. I also like to add in some cedar and pine essential oils so the books smell nice but that’s optional. To apply I just rub it on with a rag and then buff it off with sheep’s wool or a cotton cloth. It seals really nicely and also leaves a more natural feeling to the leather rather than the hard plastic-like feeling of a lot of chemical finishers. Let me know how it goes! (P.s. it also makes a really nice salve for your hands lol)

    • @zachhalliwell553
      @zachhalliwell553 Рік тому

      Also make sure to use coconut butter and NOT coconut oil or you’ll get a really greasy result. I made that mistake the first time I made it.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      Thanks so much! I'll try it out in the future. From that list of ingredients I think my house will smell amazing for days afterward!

    • @zachhalliwell553
      @zachhalliwell553 Рік тому +1

      @@ingeniusdesigns Haha definitely does!

  • @isaias9516
    @isaias9516 2 роки тому

    You should teach me your ways! I’d love to visit, and learn the ways of the master. Think about it! 😌

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      No masters here. I'm totally a noob at this, just sharing my journey with others. But I'll keep making content as I learn and I hope you continue to find it helpful!

    • @isaias9516
      @isaias9516 2 роки тому +1

      @@ingeniusdesigns thanks for your humility! Love the content and your channel!

  • @pappa3144
    @pappa3144 2 роки тому

    oh dear i gonna love you😍thank you

  • @kristiereed1403
    @kristiereed1403 2 роки тому

    I have often thought that humidity would be bad in a library causing mold and warping???
    I wanted to put an electric fireplace in my small library (one that uses steam for a more realistic flame appearance) would that be bad to use in a small library or would it actually be a good thing????

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      It kind of depends. If you're having trouble with your covers warping in low humidity, then the steam "fire" might be helpful. If your room is already humid, however, then you certainly wouldn't want to overdo it, as you mentioned. I would do some research and see if that kind of fireplace actually changes the humidity of the room much. About 50% humidity would be ideal for preserving your books, but there can be some leeway in that. The most important thing to keep your books from warping is that the temperature and humidity don't vary too much.

  • @samneetsw
    @samneetsw 2 роки тому

    Would you care to organize a weekend book binding class?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      Thanks for asking. The question itself is super flattering, although I consider myself too much of a beginner in this field to presume to teach such a course at this point. I'll keep sharing what I learn by video though and hopefully we can all grow together!

  • @AditiChhawry
    @AditiChhawry 25 днів тому

    Has anyone tried using leather conditioner? Does it help maintain the book covers straight?

  • @AuntJemimaGames
    @AuntJemimaGames 8 місяців тому

    Unless you want to maintain your collection at 45% humidity year-long, my preferred choice of solution to problems like these is perhaps the easiest: Learn to Love The Warp!

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  8 місяців тому +1

      Maintaining the humidity year-long has become my solution, and my skin enjoys it too, but I like your style!

  • @navyguywandell
    @navyguywandell 2 роки тому

    Would using actual wood work better? Or is it the leather that bows?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      Yes and yes, I think! On the one hand, it is the push and pull of the endpapers, the glue, and the leather that tends to cause the warping. On the other hand, I suspect that wood might be more resistant to warping, but I haven't actually tried it yet. It's possible it could be worse! ...most likely it would depend on the type of wood though.

  • @t0dd000
    @t0dd000 Рік тому +1

    I had to pause the video after the glass half full joke in order to fit in the eyeroll and groan.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому

      Ha! That's exactly what that joke deserves. Sometimes it's hard to believe that I don't have kids yet despite my "dad joke" game being so excellent...

  • @vadimmanevich3751
    @vadimmanevich3751 2 роки тому +1

    Please use a microphone, so the sound would be so much better

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      It's definitely on the wish list. For now I have to work with what I have (a phone), but I appreciate the support and hopefully the quality of every successive video will gradually increase.

  • @Flat_Earth_Sophia
    @Flat_Earth_Sophia Рік тому +1

    Moisten books????? Humidifier!? Glass of water??? Blasphemy! You must keep your books DRY! One of the problems is, you said you normally keep them in a humid environment. That is what they are used to. I have a very small, and unimportant library. But I keep them in a controlled environment. Cold, dry, and no particulates. 10 degrees and 20% RH. All year.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  Рік тому +1

      I definitely felt the same when I first started looking into this topic, but most of this libraries and book conservation sources I have found recommend relative humidity between 35 and 50%, with a temperature around 70 degrees Farenheit. Certainly I don't want my books to get moldy, but I've also read that cold temperatures and low humidity can make the pages brittle. So for now I'm following those guidelines, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm right. I think the most important thing to prevent the warping is consistency in the environment, and it sounds like you have your climate very well controlled.

    • @Flat_Earth_Sophia
      @Flat_Earth_Sophia Рік тому +1

      @@ingeniusdesigns I lived in SE Asia for a while and many of my books died very fast. I am so happy to be back in Europe where the weather is not apocalyptic. I had no idea about protecting books before. Until it was too late! Cheers.

    • @Chiberia
      @Chiberia 8 місяців тому

      Consistency will mean more than anything else - concerns about mold and rigidity aside. Treat your books like your wine... don't put them on top of your fridge where the temperature fluctuates every 30 minutes, because materials of any style will stress from that.
      If the materials and binding took place in a tropical environment, it's naturally going to warp if it's maintained in a dry environment, and vice versa, as water is incompressible and it coming/going from the materials will introduce stresses that didn't exist during binding.
      Stable materials will make a stable book. Most conditioned houses - which, let's face it, anyone getting bound books will likely have - will be kept around 40-50% RH and 70ºF year round, give or take 10%. I believe that's what leads to the Library of Congress' recommendations. Allow your books, leather, and other materials to settle in that type of environment for a good week or two before performing the binding, and keep them in that state, and I'd imagine you'd get a very stable end-product.
      Edit: as a video idea, I think it would be very interesting to bind the same book three ways from the same materials (if possible) - one using the stabilization technique above, one outside on a very hot/humid day, and one in a dry (

  • @albinatyrell924
    @albinatyrell924 2 роки тому

    քʀօʍօֆʍ ?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      I apologize that I haven't been able to find a good translation for your question, so I'm unable to answer it at this time, but I still really appreciate you reaching out!

  • @daddystabz
    @daddystabz 8 місяців тому

    I'm in Columbus, Ohio where we have notoriously cold Winters and am experiencing this currently with some of my RPG books. Should try a humidifier or a dehumidifier?

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  8 місяців тому +1

      My guess is a humidifier. Although I have humid summers, the central heating seems to dry out the air in my house and I need to use a humidifier (as seen in the video).

    • @daddystabz
      @daddystabz 8 місяців тому

      @@ingeniusdesigns Would I be better off with a humidifier or a dehumidifier?

  • @codeblue0021hotmail
    @codeblue0021hotmail 2 роки тому +1

    Instead of Chip Board if you use 1/8 or 1/4 sanded plywood you should not have to worry to much with warping....

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому

      Thanks for the tip! I'm familiar with wood as an option for book boards, but I've never tried it. Maybe I'll do that on my next one and see how it turns out!

    • @joelee4495
      @joelee4495 2 роки тому +1

      I bet that plywood would work. In my opinion the glue on chip board is causing the warping.

    • @ingeniusdesigns
      @ingeniusdesigns  2 роки тому +1

      That's definitely part of it. I try to minimize that by using PVA glue instead of a water-based paste, but I think the glue does still have an effect. Of course, there is glue on both sides thanks to the end-paper. If you have any more insights I'd love to hear them!